Guild Wars 2

Yunielesca.2850:

There is an expansion in preparation. Colin Johanson said

Now that China has launched we’ve freed up a lot of development resources back to get to those things. We also have a lot of people at ArenaNet and you’ve only seen what some them are working on this last year or two. Since we can’t share a road map of what they’re doing per our company policy, all I can answer is I hope when we’re able to show you what all we’ve been doing in total someday in the future – you’re as excited as we are about it.

someday in the future – pretty much the statement i would make if asked to describe the developers. They said they were going to make a scavenger hunt type system for precursors once upon a time ago, how has that been working out?

Businesswise yes ideally you want to to target a big population while having to invest as little resource as possible over time, which they succeded at. In terms for setting up for an expansion however, the game was too directed towards the causal population. Sure itd be something new for a few months but it wouldnt be long till we were back here feeling like those guys who spent $100 on keys trying to get a fused weapon when it first came out. The same underlying issues will still be there though:

loot – As long as your the correct level you can obtain virtually any piece of loot any where in game. Loot isn’t really restricted to certain instances with the exceptions for fractal weapons and weapons that only drop from champ bags. While its nice from the causal player, this is a shot in the foot in the long run. It leads to instance like why do arah when I can do cof? Sure if you want that specific token, a slight chance for a lodestone with a high chance to fail with pugs versus a 5 min run per path, lower chance to fail with pugs for pretty much same loot. The faster the run, more people do the run, more loot enters the market, then prices come down. Once a player is geared then comes the question " what do they do now?". Well they can continue to farm for gold that they can use to buy… oh yeah everything is cheap, work towards a legendary – with low prices its extra fun to grind mindlessly for just the precursor you can refer to the numerous daily posts about that, or they can quit.

new races/skills – well its a nice thought, half of the skills now are worthless or unviable, being rather generous. They already have problems balancing professions and skills. They buff one profession far more than needed, then x months later they do the same thing with a different profession.

Last but not least would be difficulty. With ascended being the new bis, players could potentially fly through the new content and then were back at square one. At the same time raising the difficulty to much could also alientate those who are in full asc which would be negative too.

long story short – Don’t see the value of them making an expansion when they can just reskin and put skins behind a gambling system with less headaches

Devata.6589:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Devata.6589:

If they would base there whole payment model on expansion there was not even a need for all that stuff in the cash-shop. Now they do not really have a choice.

You know GW1 had a cash shop too, right? A lot worse one than GW2’s, at that.

Yeah a lot lot lot worse then GW2. lol

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_In-Game_Store

Pretty much in-line with what I would expect from a B2P cash-shop. There are a few things I would not want to see in there like the mini’s, the costumes and a few unlocks but overall it’s way less then what we see in the current shop.

Oow and no, the fact that you can use ingame gold for the current game does not make up for that!

Wait what? lol. b2p? err pretty sure you mean pay to play, games usualy require you to buy them in order to play >_>.

Gw1 shop should look like a pay to play shop because it was orignally a play to play game before moving to free to play.

gw1 shop is worse than gw2 shop? well its clear that you never actually played gw1 otherwise pretty sure you would of said the opposite.

gw1 shop
You don’t have to gamble for the skins you wanted
Skins were unique – granted it was only costumes

gw2 shop
You get the pleasure of gambling for a ticket to get the skin that you would like, if your unlucky youll get a scrap in which case youll only need to gamble 9 more times !!!!! unless the item you would like is out of season in which case only 49!!!!!!!

Your desire for spending money for one thing only to get something else that you come across daily? get allured in by the new color dyes only to instead get those common dyes wooooo yeah.

Last but certainly not least: Need a new style? get ready for the all new, never seen before, newly designed wear – your current style that costed prolly 14 gold total except with FLAMES!!!!! at only 20 times the price. then next month instead of red flames we are gonna color them black to make it look like smoke.

lol wow can’t even talk about gw2 store without poking fun. You don’t have to buy a single thing in either games store to play.

echo.2053:

Devata.6589:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Devata.6589:

If they would base there whole payment model on expansion there was not even a need for all that stuff in the cash-shop. Now they do not really have a choice.

You know GW1 had a cash shop too, right? A lot worse one than GW2’s, at that.

Yeah a lot lot lot worse then GW2. lol

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_In-Game_Store

Pretty much in-line with what I would expect from a B2P cash-shop. There are a few things I would not want to see in there like the mini’s, the costumes and a few unlocks but overall it’s way less then what we see in the current shop.

Oow and no, the fact that you can use ingame gold for the current game does not make up for that!

Wait what? lol. b2p? err pretty sure you mean pay to play, games usualy require you to buy them in order to play >_>.

Gw1 shop should look like a pay to play shop because it was orignally a play to play game before moving to free to play.

gw1 shop is worse than gw2 shop? well its clear that you never actually played gw1 otherwise pretty sure you would of said the opposite.

gw1 shop
You don’t have to gamble for the skins you wanted
Skins were unique – granted it was only costumes

gw2 shop
You get the pleasure of gambling for a ticket to get the skin that you would like, if your unlucky youll get a scrap in which case youll only need to gamble 9 more times !!!!! unless the item you would like is out of season in which case only 49!!!!!!!

Your desire for spending money for one thing only to get something else that you come across daily? get allured in by the new color dyes only to instead get those common dyes wooooo yeah.

Last but certainly not least: Need a new style? get ready for the all new, never seen before, newly designed wear – your current style that costed prolly 14 gold total except with FLAMES!!!!! at only 20 times the price. then next month instead of red flames we are gonna color them black to make it look like smoke.

lol wow can’t even talk about gw2 store without poking fun. You don’t have to buy a single thing in either games store to play.

No I mean B2P. Meaning games that use game and expansion sales as there main source of income. Think of a game like GW1. And now most F2P games don’t require you to buy them. Anyway the F2P mainly points to games using the cash-shop as there main source of income. So maybe cash-shop games would have been a better name for them.

GW2 has not become a cash-shop game but would have been better of being a true B2P game.

And why the heck would I mean P2P it we are talking about GW! what was a B2P game?

“Gw1 shop should look like a pay to play shop because it was originally a play to play game before moving to free to play.”
GW1 was B2P and still is B2P. Never really became F2P. You could argue that now they stopped supporting it the main income is from the cash-shop but thats.. well because they stopt really supporting it.

“gw1 shop is worse than gw2 shop? well its clear that you never actually played gw1 otherwise pretty sure you would of said the opposite.”
I said the opposite. GW2 shop is worse. Hyper Cutter said the GW1 shop was worse.

I think you should be talking to Hyper Cutter, not to me.

Or wasn’t it clear that “Yeah a lot lot lot worse then GW2” was sarcasm? You know the “lol” and the whole explanation after it should have made that clear one would think.

in my opinion free to play – permanent access even (with a one time purchase) with no subscription costs to play.

what are you even trying to argue in terms of pay model? Regardless if they release 100 free expansions,the game would never “really be f2p”. You already spent at least $60. If your trying to support the 100% free model… your in the wrong game.

They stopped supporting gw1 because of gw2. That is just business sense. It should be obvious that gw1 could never fully become f2p….what company in their right mind would refund millions? They went from subscription play to non subscription play.

It should of be rather obvious that the gem shop comment wasn’t directed at you, perhaps it was towards the other poster that was quoted, you know the one you “sarcastically” replied to and I was just to lazy to separate them. You made several posts showing your general feeling for the gem shop ( that it is worse than gw1 shop – just so that we are on the same track) and your first thought is that my response – that was poking fun of the gw2 shop – was directed towards you? As Walter from The Big Lebowski said " The world does not stop and start at your convenience".

The fact that I responded first to something mid-way through the post before responding to something at the top of the post should of rung a bell no?

Haven’t logged in in a long time.

Uninstalled a few weeks ago.

No faith in Anet.

I’m pretty happy with the geographic expansion from the smaller add-ons. Just like to see it keep up a brisk pace. Dry top is nice, Southsun is nice but underutilized. I’d like to see a few of those each year. I’m also okay with sharing the expansion with the dungeon crowd, give them a bone once in awhile (like fractals did). And EotM is a nice addition to WvW. I’d love a new race just cosmetically and story wise, but really, having more low level areas take development priority over high level is not something I want to see personally. New professions, absolutely, but I cringe at the uproar that some small balance issue could bring.

So if “no expansions” means simply that small high level areas will open up over time and that is all, I can live with it.

Devata.6589:

Because people enjoy doing the same events over and over again? No, also in GW2 most people end up in some ‘end-game’. Sometimes that is grinding one event but they don’t keep repeating events or doing lower level events for the fun (maybe for map completion but also then only once per character, just like with quest). So that makes no difference whatsoever.

No people dont enjoy repeating the same events over and over again but there isnt just a handful of events there are 2000+ of them. If you do say an average of 10 events per day you got 200 days worth of events without having to repeat anything. I am fine with repeating events after 200 days or so. Much better then having to repeat the same raid week after week until the next thing comes along dont you think? Repeating content is unavoidable we all agree on that but I’d rather then 100% of the content to choose from then less then 1%

Devata.6589:

Not to mention that in ‘those other games’ there are a lot reasons to be active in those lower level zones. For reputations for rewards or to get a special mount or a special mini or a special skin or a special recipe and so on and so on.

I think you mean that other game or two not those other games here… thats not that common really. Many MMOs once a mob goes grey (you out level it) it doesnt drop loot at all. Besides the few were what you say holds true, where’s the fun in repeating a dungeon were mobs cant hurt you and you burn through them no problem a bunch of times until what you seek drops. Awesome rewards are nice no doubt but you know you play a game for the game play first and foremost. Not to mention that most people would probably have farmed that content when level appropriate or simply outright bought it off the AH is not soulbound meaning there wouldnt be even that for replayability once at max level

Devata.6589:

Different story lines? No, just make some updates to existing zones, update some events (to also make them interesting for max level players). But obviously 90% of the new stuff should be in the new expansion. And if those who did not buy the expansions feel jaded they can buy the expansion. Not to mention that at this moment also a lot of people are bored.

Lets hope no. Like I said a few lines above one of the best feature of Gw2 is it doesnt kill off its content once you outlevel it. What you’re proposing does exactly that.

Devata.6589:

So because most games try to earn some additional money with cash-shops it’s unrealistic to have none? Anyway while that already is untrue the keyword here was focus! I did not say No cash-shop. They can still have a cash-shop where they sell some stuff like additional character slots, name-changer, race-changer, total make-over, expansions to the game, guild-name changer. All that “our of game” sort of stuff would be fine.

Yes that exactly what it means. At the end of the day MMOs are financed by investors which means developers need to balance player needs with investors needs. Remove a lucrative revenue stream that everyone else taps into will definitely not make investors happy. It will most likely just drive them away and you end up with no game in the end so everyone looses. Which of those items do you think will sell enough to provide a steady income stream to investors? expansions will give a big boost for a couple of months every 2 – 3 years and maybe character slots now and then. For most of the time Quarter to Quarter investors would receive abysmal results which will definitely not keep them happy. You’re just thinking players but we’re just one of the stake holders.

echo.2053:

in my opinion free to play – permanent access even (with a one time purchase) with no subscription costs to play.

what are you even trying to argue in terms of pay model? Regardless if they release 100 free expansions,the game would never “really be f2p”. You already spent at least $60. If your trying to support the 100% free model… your in the wrong game.

They stopped supporting gw1 because of gw2. That is just business sense. It should be obvious that gw1 could never fully become f2p….what company in their right mind would refund millions? They went from subscription play to non subscription play.

It should of be rather obvious that the gem shop comment wasn’t directed at you, perhaps it was towards the other poster that was quoted, you know the one you “sarcastically” replied to and I was just to lazy to separate them. You made several posts showing your general feeling for the gem shop ( that it is worse than gw1 shop – just so that we are on the same track) and your first thought is that my response – that was poking fun of the gw2 shop – was directed towards you? As Walter from The Big Lebowski said " The world does not stop and start at your convenience".

The fact that I responded first to something mid-way through the post before responding to something at the top of the post should of rung a bell no?

Well I figured you talked to me because you quoted me. Seems like a general rule of forums isn’kitten

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

~

~Much better then having to repeat the same raid week after week until the next thing comes along dont you think? Repeating content is unavoidable we all agree on that but I’d rather then 100% of the content to choose from then less then 1%

Even if that’s how it works (how it isn’t. people don’t just start over doing quest again after 200 days) it still doesn’t change anything because with traditional quest there are also easy over 2000+ quest and people do that once per character what makes it just as time limited. yes technically you can do events many times on one character but we both know thats simply not how it works.

However your story did change a little. Before this game had no time-limit on content and now you don’t like the repeatable content in those other games but do like it in this game. Well lets be fair, many people prefer to repeat doing raids then some quest.

Devata.6589:

Devata.6589:

~

~snip for space.

Well it’s the sort of stuff that kept me playing in those games. Collecting all those things.

Devata.6589:

Devata.6589:

~

Lets hope no. Like I said a few lines above one of the best feature of Gw2 is it doesnt kill off its content once you outlevel it. What you’re proposing does exactly that.

Why does it? It’s still repeatable and that how you liked it you said before?

Devata.6589:

Devata.6589:

~

Yes that exactly what it means. At the end of the day MMOs are financed by investors which means developers need to balance player needs with investors needs. Remove a lucrative revenue stream that everyone else taps into will definitely not make investors happy. It will most likely just drive them away and you end up with no game in the end so everyone looses. Which of those items do you think will sell enough to provide a steady income stream to investors? expansions will give a big boost for a couple of months every 2 – 3 years and maybe character slots now and then. For most of the time Quarter to Quarter investors would receive abysmal results which will definitely not keep them happy. You’re just thinking players but we’re just one of the stake holders.

Oow you have a point here. Investors are scared very easy. Looking at the sales of GW1 and GW2 (in percentages) did suggest that GW2 would have earned more if they where a true B2P game but for many investors thats a scary route. They prefer cash-shop route. However don’t forget just a few years ago investors where afraid of the F2P / cash-shop route and only wanted P2P. Many games did go bankrupt or eventually turned F2P so it might be a matter of time before they have the guts to try a true B2P game. In fact you already see them trying it with for example Destiny but at the same time you also see they are still afraid. Everything has to be planned out, content has been taken out on purpose. They want to have the whole thing planed out in details and have much of the content done already.

Of course thats not how a true B2P model works. You release a full product, and then release an expansion that adds a true expansion of content to that partly based on what other games do and what your consumers ask for.

however Desteny earned back it investment in no time. So maybe next knowing that an investor has the guts to allow the game-developer to do it right.

Yes cash-shop are easy money but they also harm the game and a good games also earns it’s money plus it creates a good name for the company.

In fact GW2 is proof of that. Anet had a great name it created for itself with GW1. The current approach however did harm there name and I can tell you that if they where to release GW3 it would have lower sales based on that. So a good games earns money and a good name earns money. A cash-shop is easy money but does not provide both of them.

“expansions will give a big boost for a couple of months every 2 – 3” A true B2P game would release expansions faster. While maybe not as fast as GW1 (about once every half year) once a year should be possible. Based on GW1 they would then earn about 100% of what they earned at release. That means that at the second expansion (that we then would have had by now) GW2 would have earned more money in total then they do with the cash-shop. And why do you talk about 2-3 years? Even with non B2P game the average is 1,5 to 2 years. In fact WoW was one of the longest to wait with it’s first expansion (of the bigger mmo’s) and that took 2 years 1 month and 25 days. So yes I very much take the financial part into consideration.

Devata.6589:

Even if that’s how it works it still doesn’t change anything because with traditional quest there are also easy over 2000+…

thats why I said on average. obviously you’re not going through events one by one. Some times you may find the same event in less then 10 mins but thats not a problem if you feel like it repeat it, if you dont simply walk away!

Devata.6589:

..Well lets be fair, many people prefer to repeat doing raids then some quest.

I dont like any repeatable content. Like I said the nature of MMOs is you have no choice but to repeat content, the question is who handles that better for me? The game which has me repeat the same 10 hr worth of content for months or the game which allows me to repeat any of 1000 hours+ worth of content and that also generally provides me with new stuff to do every 2 weeks?

Well I never much of a raider. End game is generally when I quit an MMO

Devata.6589:

Why does it? It’s still repeatable and that how you liked it you said before?

No, I said I dislike repeatable but If I have to repeat stuff I’d appreciate as much variety as possible. if these areas get neglected though with no updates and actually pushing people to move to newer level then it means group content in those areas is no longer feasible. Also changes to existing zones makes them more interesting again and even if the majority of the content remains unchanged there is that explorer gleam of trying to find those little changes. An expansion would be great but I hope it doesnt come at the cost of the existing “world” I hope they keep both contents relevant.

Devata.6589:

Oow you have a point here. Investors are scared very easy. …

No it wouldnt. Gw2 earns approxamitely 4x Gw1 did. So far Gw2 already made more money then Gw1 did in all its lifetime! Investors arent going to give that up. All we can really petition for is a reasonable cash shop and so far I dont see them doing a bad job there and they do try to meet players half way most of the time.

Devata.6589:

Of course thats not how a true B2P model works. …

There is no set manual for how B2P works. In fact if anything there are far more examples of B2P having micro transaction then not. Strictly speaking the B2P model as buy the game and dont pay for anything else only existed for 1 year.

Devata.6589:

Yes cash-shop are easy money but they also harm the game and a good games also earns it’s money plus it creates a good name for the company.

Any business model harms the game.
- Subscriptions incentives endless grind
- B2P with no Micro transaction incentives content locks
- Micro transaction incentives moving stuff from the game to a cash shop

Its not about the business model its about the balance struck. There are F2P games that are a joy to play while there are other I wouldnt touch with a stick because of how they handle their business model. Its not the model its the implementation.

Devata.6589:

… Anet had a great name it created for itself with GW1. The current approach however did harm there name and I can tell you that if they where to release GW3 it would have lower sales based on that. S…

Yet some time ago more players played WvW at one time then players played in the entire of Gw1. in other forums Gw2 is often given as an example of how to do a cash shop correctly. Gw1 cash shop wasnt exactly innocent either… buying skills / mercenary heroes was frowned upon by some. Thing is, its true the majority of the skins went into the cash shop but lets not forget gw2 started out with way more skins you can earn ingame then gw1 had at launch so while having skins in the shop rather then ingame isnt ideal is it really damaging?

Devata.6589:

“expansions will give a big boost for a couple of months every 2 – 3” A true B2P game would release expansions faster. …

Modern MMOs are just too detailed for once a year. Which modern MMO releases expansions that fast?

Its not just WoW
Rift – 1 year 8 months / ~ 2 years
FFXIV – 1.8 – 2 years
Tera – 3 years 6 months!

lets not disregard that Gw2 would actually probably take longer due to very frequent updates and creating a DE takes more time then making a regular quest.

I am sure they know how much money an Expansion will make. Over 2 years between content is a long time to wait and the Living world is an awesome way to keep players busy. makes sense. Living world team is 20 people and they’ve released the bulk of the content so far there are still 330 more employees working at Anet they have to be working on something!

“No, I said I dislike repeatable but If I have to repeat stuff I’d appreciate as much variety as possible. if these areas get neglected though with no updates and actually pushing people to move to newer level then it means group content in those areas is no longer feasible.”

You do know this makes no sense whatsoever right? If they add new maps with new events that does not mean you would not be able to do the old events. You think everybody would then move to the new maps and that might be (while it does not have to be true), just as they now move to specific area’s (except for a few like you who keep repeating events apparently).

“Also changes to existing zones makes them more interesting again and even if the”
Like I said, you can also do some updates in existing maps when releasing an expansion.

“No it wouldnt. Gw2 earns approxamitely 4x Gw1 did. So far Gw2 already made more money then Gw1 did in all its lifetime! Investors arent going to give that up. All we can really petition for is a reasonable cash shop and so far I dont see them doing a bad job there and they do try to meet players half way most of the time. ”

Maybe you do it on purpose or maybe you just don’t know how to ‘read’ those numbers. And that while I even said I talked about percentages. Yes GW2 made more money (For a big part because of the good name it got thanks to GW1 with it’s B2P model). It’s a bigger game and got released as B2P and immediate had much bigger sales. So that is where you starting point is.

Arguing with you about this is useless if you do not get that but I will try to explain it to you. Here is a chars that shows sales of NCSoft https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg
There is you see that indeed GW2 made much more money then GW1 and even it’s cash-shop income was able to keep generating more money then GW1 ever was able to. But first of all you forget that that big spike (starting point) was thanks to GW1 and GW2 was knows as a B2P game much like GW1 so thats not thanks to the cash-shop focus.

Now what is interesting is the percentage of income to it’s initial peak. That is the only way we can make a fair comparison to GW1 to see how much GW2 would have likely earned if they pushed out an expansion every year. When you look to GW1 you see that at the release of every expansion it got on average 100% of it’s initial sale. GW2’s cash-shop did drop to UNDER a steady income of 25% (at this moment). And then I just act as if GW1 did not earn any money in-between the releases of expansions (what is untrue and would only benefit the GW1 model more).

Now some easy calculation for 1 year. GW2 < 25% per quarter is < 100% per year while 100% per year is 100% per year. It’s not a guarantee because obviously if Anet would have released bad expansions the numbers would have dropped after the first expansion but the numbers show that the B2P would have earned them more money then there current model that. That is, if the development-cost are the same but if we are to believe Anet they are putting in the same effort as they would for an expansions “they release the same content but in another way” according to them.

A B2P model means you earn money with game-sales (that includes expansions). True does not stand for “according to some guide-lines” but “in it’s purest form”. So that means they earn money only with sales on the game (and expansions) and because of that they will need to release expansion on a more regular base as non B2P games.
“he B2P model as buy the game and dont pay for anything else only existed for 1 year.” Whut? Most games use a B2P model, only in the MMO scene it’s not used so much. While it’s true that more and more games try to grap every last cent they can and games get to suffer for it. It;s one of the big complains most gamers do complain about these days. Look at The Sims was really focused on using this model (and was very successful with it), but then went into the bad zone with The Sims 4.

“B2P with no Micro transaction incentives content locks” Yes it does but it does not have to as many games have proven over the year. In fact investors might soon realize thats the worse they can do with that model looking how that worked out for the Sims 4 while all there previous versions (where that did not happen) sold very good and how it would not be strange to think that all the crap they will sell as additions for Destiny might also not sell as good because of this approach. But thats a risk, however it’s not a given, nor is there a financial need to do it that way.

“Micro transaction incentives moving stuff from the game to a cash shop” And the difference here is thats is not an incentive but a financial need because thats how they earn the money. They need to get people to buy those items. For an expansion a good expansion would do the trick, there is no need to keep locking out content, that might in fact backfire while with micro-transaction there is the need to move desired stuff to the cash-shop. That is a huge difference.

“in other forums Gw2 is often given as an example of how to do a cash shop correctly.” You see thats a funny thing. GW2 is build around skins and also I personally prefer skins over stats. And what is GW2 putting most in the cash-shop? Indeed skins. In what forums would you see people saying GW2 does it good? Games that focus more in combat / kills and where they sell skills. Those games would however likely not earn eough money if they would only put skins in there and I think GW2 would not earn enough money if they put stats in there cash-shop. So the whole “It’s not P2W” what this boils down to is a nice pitch but irrelevant for a games build around skins.

Games have become newer and more detailed but development tools have also become better so if GW1 was able to push out an expansion every 6 months yeah then GW2 should be able to push out an expansion every year. That is, if they where to focus on earning there money that way as in a B2P game, not if they earned there money with a cash-shop (like they do now) or the P2P model. Just like the games you refer to are doing.

“lets not disregard that Gw2 would actually probably take longer due to very frequent updates and creating a DE takes more time then making a regular quest.”
That would then obviously be less in favor of those expansions.

“Living world team is 20 people and they’ve released the bulk of the content so far there are still 330 more employees working at Anet they have to be working on something!” Yeah thats what they say all the time right. But where is all that content. You know ever for your average MMO (non B2P) GW2 should have had an expansion by now but it doesn’t. Maybe things like EotM are the “background projects” they are working on? And while the LS did not even give us close to what an expansion should, if you go look at the development time.. all the changes to maps, all mini the instances, all the dialogs and so on and so on.. thats at least close to the same development time as would have gone into an expansion. Anyway.. many of the ‘defenders’ have been telling the ‘complainers’ to wait for expansions (or the content) and to watch at how long other games took to release it.

Well been waiting for an announcement of over 1,5 year now and we are well over the average time of those games (and again I would expect GW2 to be B2P (what it isn’t) and then it would have releases closes to each other because that would have there focus) so if you say “They are working on it” well where is it? The time is here? Those complainers have waited where is it? Will make a thread about that in 3 days.

jweez.7214:

But they seem to dodge the question when asked about it while reaffirming their belief that living story can deliver expansion content.

Evidence shows me that it cannot, so…. yes to expansion

I saw FFXIV will have an add-on on spring 2015. This game (re)ship what? 1 year ago? And already got an add on? New race,job, zone etc…

Went to gw2 to check news, saw “Tyria’s Point of No Return” , clic the link then error 404 page not found with a quaggan. OK.

I love gw2 but why we can’t project on future content? I mean LS with no end npc talking mission is not gameplay content for me. Make me sad.

At least if we can have update on some old anuncement like new legendary weps, prec quest etc… Aside from anouncement that LS will end, well we have nothing.

@Devata I seriously hate this board grrrr long post lost. joy of retyping

“You do know this makes no sense whatsoever right? If they add new maps with new events that does not mean you would not be able to do the old events”

That depends on how they handle an expansion. you suggested players should be pushed into buying the expansion in order to avoid a fracture. You suggested nearly each update should apply just to the expansion with only 10% of it going to old areas. You cannot have it both ways. if you push people in one area it stands to reason the old will be mostly empty and if they are mostly empty sure you can go do solo events but thats less fun and completely cuts group content in those areas which is still substantial. I am not saying an expansion will kill old content was just disagreeing with your push people to buy new expansion statement.

“Maybe you do it on purpose or maybe you just don’t know how to ‘read’ those numbers. And that while I even said I talked about percentages. + When you look to GW1 you see that at the release of every expansion it got on average 100% of it’s initial sale. GW2’s cash-shop did drop to UNDER a steady income of 25% (at this moment). And then I just act as if GW1 did not earn any money in-between the releases of expansions (what is untrue and would only benefit the GW1 model more).
Now some easy calculation for 1 year. GW2 < 25% per quarter is < 100% per year while 100% per year is 100% per year.”

Respectfully I feel you may be the one misreading the numbers. Gw1 expansion didnt do no where close to 100%. I suspect you failed to take into account box sales of previous versions + the cashshop. Taking factions into consideration the Quarter prior to launch Gw1 did ~30m kwn, at launch it did ~60m its even worst if we consider EOTN at launch it did 13m, 8m in the previous quarter and if we look at the quarter before that it did 11m. So those expansion did 50% at best less then 10% at worst. (of course this is only looking at launch quarter, they did continue selling past launch quarters)

On top of all this you’re still making the assumption that a proper expansion can be completed in a year. What if the shortest time they could possible finish an expansion is 2 or even 3 years? 25% per quarter would end up making 2x – 3x as much. Now consider on top of that they still do a paid expansion every 2 – 3 years? they’d be making 300% – 400% as opposed to Gw1 50%.

" But first of all you forget that that big spike (starting point) was thanks to GW1 and GW2 was knows as a B2P game much like GW1 so thats not thanks to the cash-shop focus."
This is totally an assumption. We have no way to tell what prompted Gw2 initial success. Gw1 was hated as much as it was loved. I didnt buy it at launch because most Reviews I read actually were quite negative. People’s opinion on forums was quite negative as well. On top of that lets not forget in the last 5 years prior to Gw2 launch gw1 was like you call it very cash shop focus. We didnt get a new armors in game we got cash shop costumes. Why would people have the wrong impression ?

“A B2P model means you earn money with game-sales (that includes expansions). True does not stand for “according to some guide-lines” but “in it’s purest form”.”
there is no purest form! B2P is threated differently by every MMO company out there.

Some sell expansions + the content of those expansion individually if you want.
Some sell tons of DLCs + mission packs + maybe a expansion too
Some sell the game but you have to buy game unlocks like skill bars / an extra companion etc..

But there is one thing they all have in common, they all include a cash shop

Single player games are a different beast then MMO for many reasons but even there B2P is being abused, day 1 dlc is a good example.

" And the difference here is thats is not an incentive but a financial need because thats how they earn the money."

First of all its an incentive not a need. Case in point is Anet didnt put everything in the cashshop. They put also a good amount of stuff they sell in game as well.

but perhaps more interesting is at the end of the day is it really any different then selling DLCs? or mission packs? or even an expansion? in all 3 cases you need to buy it first.

" For an expansion a good expansion would do the trick, there is no need to keep locking out content"
Actually its the other way round. if you sell an expansion you’re locking out content. What Anet do they’re not locking out anything. You can earn that skin by playing the game or taking out your credit card if you want the easy way out. In any case there is 0 locking unlike an expansion which would lock all its content until you pay for it.

“You see thats a funny thing. GW2 is build around skins and also I personally prefer skins over stats.” I prefer skins to stats as well but here is the thing. Take a game like the secret world for example. Most cosmetics go into the cashshop as well. If I want them I have to pay for them no way around it. In Gw2 I bought 50% of my skins with real money and 50% i still earned them by playing the game. If I wanted to I could have just bought all of them by playing the game too. Now consider the fact we’re actually the minority. Most people dont care that much about cosmetics what they care is stats. In fact outside this forum I dont think I heard a single complained ever about cosmetics being sold in a cash shop in fact it was always the opposite people always want P2W stuff out and state a cash shop should only sell cosmetic stuff.

I honestly agree with the sentiment, this is the best Cash shop implementation I have ever experienced in a game with a cash shop.You really think if Gw2 put stats in the cash shop they’d not sell cause people dont care about stats here? I have quite a few threats trying to convince people that there is okey to ignore ascended armor if you’re not enjoying getting them that may not agree with that statement honestly

“Games have become newer and more detailed but development tools …yeah then GW2 should be able to push out an expansion every year. "
yeah tools have gotten better no doubt but if before what you had is simple terrain generated off a hieghtmap it will still take a fraction of the time to create a new map then on when you have rock outcrops with tons of geometry all over the place with multiple textures blending together and structures all over the place and each of those structure has many times the polygon count etc.. Its not just more detail its also a larger amount of objects and each object has many times the complexity. Just compare say lion’s arch in both games do you really think it took them just twice as long to do the one in Gw2?

“That would then obviously be less in favor of those expansions.”
not if they fit the living story in. I mean imagine if they deliver an awesome detailed Cantha by end of 2015 and keep doing Living story in between. I am pretty sure that would make most people happy and wouldnt make developing an expansion that requires 3 years such a big deal anymore!

“yeah thats what they say all the time right. But where is all that content”
Not thats not what they say, the never said anything of the sort. They have been totally silent in that regard. Thats what us players came up with based on the facts at hand.
As for thats where the content is at .. isnt that true for any mmo before an expansion is announced? Nearly every MMO, especially those that take 2years to develop an expansion will release a little content here and there and until their first expansion is announced as far as people know thats where content is at too right?

there is no set standard for how long it takes to do an expansion. Tera took 3.6 years for its first expansion for example. Runescape took like 13 years
LS is not an expansion worth of content I agree but again LS is just like 6% of their workforce. what else we got like eotm, fractals, guild missions etc.. is no where close 94% more content then the living story, in fact at best its double that amount which still leaves about 80% of their workforce working on something else in my view.

I dont know if you’re familar with the agile golden triangle.
but it basically tells you this. there are 3 factors in a project, scope, time and resources. You can only have 2 of them at the expense of the other. Resources are fixed. you got x amount of employees to work with. That leaves either scope and time. So if it takes more then 2 years to finish an expansion and you try to get it done in 1/2 that time to satisfy your business model you’ll end up delivering 1/2 of what the expansion should contain. whom would that benefit exactly?

Will try to keep this shorter. Edit: Failed.

“you suggested players should be pushed into buying the expansion in order to avoid a fracture. “ Not really, I think a good expansion will have that effect on it’s own. People want to do that new content and get those new rewards and so on. But that does not mean the old stuff has to become irrelevant.
As an example, same quest / and events might be updated and not all new dungeons need to have there entrance in the new land, some might be placed in existing land. Also something like WoW did with adding the ability to fly is a good example of updating older maps.
That some maps might get emptier is not to blame on expansion but on the way content is designed. GW2 also has maps that are very empty and it does not have had an expansion. So you can’t blame that on expansions.

I have no idea where you get those numbers from but the graph I linked clearly showed a spike at every release of an expansion. The spike was on average 100% of the initial sale spike.

“What if the shortest time they could possible finish an expansion is 2 or even 3 years?”
Then they are doing something wrong.

“This is totally an assumption. We have no way to tell what prompted Gw2 initial success.” Not completely true. Anet got a name with GW1 including it’s payment model. GW2 was bigger (what was only possible because of GW1’s success, if that wasn’t successful GW2 would not exist). Now there have obviously been more reasons and guessing what was more important is an assumption but you can be 100% sure that GW1’s success and the name it created with that was part of that.. again, if GW1 was a fail GW2 would never have been funded. What you do know for 100% sure is that the cash-shop focus was not part of it as it was not knows by then they would start focusing on that. We did know there was an expansion but that was only for a few minor things like the boosters.. so they told us.

“there is no purest form! B2P is threated differently by every MMO company out there. “
B2P meaning you earn your money with sales of the game. So then thats the purest form. And yes many companies do have different approaches, that does not mean there is no purest form. There are many companies that mix salt with other stuff, that does not mean there is no purest for of salt (100% salt).

“is it really any differen ”
Oow yes that’s huge. With the one you buy the game and then play it, earning stuff in the game you play for. With the other you get the game and they (have the ability) to buy the rewards. Playing for them turns into grinding ingame gold for them and from a game-play perspective they are not worth that much because everybody could have just both them. It’s a huge huge huge difference while obviously that also depends on your personal preferred game-play. One example for me.. One of the things I did in other mmo’s was collecting mini’s. That did send me all over the world, doing dungeons, killing mobs, doing quest and so on and son on. In GW2 I did get a few that I like but collecting them? Hell no.. That means buying them with cash or grinding gold for them. Yes technically I could be doing the same type of content but the incentive is gone and in fact I get punished for doing it that way because there are other ways to grind the gold faster and the value from a game-play perspective for those mini’s are gone. So yeah huge difference.

“if you sell an expansion you’re locking out content. ”
I think we misunderstood each other here. I was talking about locking out content in previous releases just so they could release it later. (Like the famous examples of the pools in The Sims 4 but I know a few more examples)

About the skins:
I don’t have fun buying them and grinding gold is also not what I like and for many “playing GW2” has become grinding gold to buy the items. Maybe you like both of that, I have other idea’s of how you play a game and again there is also the gameplay value of an item that gets destroyed that way.

“yeah tools have gotten better no doubt but”
Yeah so it takes longer as it would have taken a few years ago but not as much as how much more detailed it has become. GW1 did it in half a year. Many other (non B2P) games release between 1,5 and 2 years and many single player games (who don’t just add to a game but create a completely new games) also have a gap of 2 years. So yeah the 1 year gap should be doable imho if that has there focus.

“not if they fit the living story in.”
While I personally believed that would be possible (I would still not like it because of the way the cash-shop focus effects the game) Anet did show it was not able to. Don’t now come to me about end of 2015. Ever since I talk about this subject people have been pointing to other MMO’s as reference. No we (people who said they wanted expansions) should give Anet the same time as other games.. Well We did, it’s well over 2 years.. the amount of time most games would have had an expansions and they failed. Sorry the “wait a little longer” I did already and that deadline ends tomorrow. Then ‘We’ waited as long as those other games (most of them) did take to deliver a expansion.

They said they would release the content we would normally see in expansions they where just not sure how they delivered it. That pretty literally what they said.. Well what we would normally see is x amound of content in y amound of time. What we have now is smaller as the x range and the y range has reached it max as well.

“there is no set standard for how long it takes to do an expansion.” Of course.. first “we” had to wait the same time as those other games and now there is no standard so should have no end-date. Again.. sorry that end-date is tomorrow. And that’s based on ‘the other games out there’ and the people defending Anet. Most games out there took 1,5 to 2 years. So that is what it’s going to be for ‘us’.

The “wait longer excuse” is just not going to cut it anymore.

PS:
Oow and about Tera. I did not play the game but in a discussion I had about this same subject with somebody else a person mentioned Tera and I also know of that list WoW look the longest to release it’s first expansion. So I did know your 3,6 years was false, I just did not know the real dates. Looked them up for you.

It was released on January 25 2011.
The first expansion was The Argon Queen and was released on August 22 of 2012. That is 1 year and 7 months.

Edit, add:
I would also like to and my doubts about how lucrative the hole cash-shop approach is. That, because ever since release the cash shop has become more and more intrusive and aggressive. Maybe they did earn enough with it and just wanted still earn more or maybe they did not earn what they expected and that forced them to become more aggressive. With the Gem conversion debacle as last example of that (lets hope they will see this was a step to far and undo that soon. Or maybe they simply let it go, adding 200 gems as option and so draw a new line as to how far they take it)

Anyway, if it’s because they are not earning enough the cash-shop focus is not only negative for the gamer bus also for the company a lose lose situation. The risk of trying to optimizing income with the expense of the product is of course always there with any system. There have plains come down because of it.

At the rate they’re going, I’m now honestly afraid that Anet is going to destroy the franchise and have to shut down the servers before we get any hope of an expansion.

I hope I’m wrong – but each of the last 3 major updates seems to have been designed with infuriating as large a segment of the playerbase as possible as the goal.

It’s a pity – the mismanagement of the game is heartbreaking, given how much I loved GW1, and how much I want to love this game.

So much potential, just kittened away.