(edited by Bryzy.2719)
No Holy Trinity = Boring?
No.
Your more or less asking for ppl to play the way you want and not let them have the freedom to chose how they play.
Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA
TL;DR:
- Bad balancing + communist style gameplay = boring = loss of players
- If trinity was in place, player skill is still a key factor in winning pvp/wvwThis is a speculative thread and is open to all opinions, not one in which I’m am forcing forward my own – though I do state it.
Note: for newer players, ‘holy trinity’ refers to the profession-specific roles of tank, DPS and healer.
I’ve noticed more players recently giving up this game/logging far fewer hours to pursue real life or other gaming ventures. I’ve no idea if this is a legitimate trend (it most likely isn’t in the scheme of things) as I don’t have access to Anet’s playerbase statistics.
From what I’ve witnessed amongst players, GW2 appears to be a kind of ‘fleeting fancy’ when it comes to gameplay. That is, people will get the game, play for a couple of months, then get bored.
It’s my opinion that the poor profession-balancing skills of the devs [read: Rangers are due for another shafting], combined with the rather communist-esque design of the gameplay [read: no holy-trinity] are completely detrimental to the ‘addictiveness’ of the game. Simply put, comparatively, GW2 just isn’t that addictive meaning it isn’t as fun as other games.
I realise that some are advocates of the “skill factor” (i.e. removing the holy trinity means player skill plays a larger role in pvp/wvw), however I don’t believe this is necessarily the case. If we had the classic DPS/Tank/Healer roles, players’ individual skill would still determine the outcome of a fight. A really good tank would wear down DPS players, a really good DPS player might out-damage a healer’s healing power etc etc.
I have no expectation that Anet will ever incorporate the trinity into the game. The removal of it is, afterall, one of the game’s foundational ideals. It’s just my view that this makes for a weaker game in the long run.
Thoughts?
The balance in this game is fine. There is no ‘UBER’ build as each profession has it’s weaknesses and strengths. The trinity makes it hard to balance, just look at GW1. That game was never really balanced well because of the Trinity meta.
I NEVER WANT THE TRINITY IN THIS GAME. The Trinity, as I stated in another forum thread, is a flawed mechanic taken from the original D&D games where everything was turned based mechanic. Very few games will use that mechanic any more since it simplifies things too much.
No.
Your more or less asking for ppl to play the way you want and not let them have the freedom to chose how they play.
It goes both ways you know. In games I love playing a healer. Can’t do that here.
In terms of PvE, I think the Trinity-less system can work, providing the content in the game encourages players to think out their approach (unlike in the Trinity system, where players are already told ‘you need this, this and this’). This is the main advantage of GW2’s current system; it can potentially offer more depth than a system designed around the Trinity (note the potentially).
I can’t really comment on PvP and WvW, since I don’t really play them to the level as to where I could compare it to other games (although, me and my friends used to roam quite frequently, and because our builds were built around each other to cover out stregnths and weaknesses, we could often take down numbers larger than ours).
In terms of addictiveness, addictiveness doesn’t always equal fun. I find this game fun, and yet I don’t feel the need to play everyday, whereas with WoW, I had to take a step back and ask myself why I was logging in everyday, despite being bored out of my mind. Not to mention everyone finds different things ‘addicting’ or compelling; one person might find healing addicting, another might find a particular game-mode addicting, regardless of how they’re playing it, whereas I personally get the most pleasure out of coming up with builds, testing and tweaking them.
In the end, I don’t think it makes for a weaker game. Unless I get proven wrong, I’ll always believe that the current system can work, and there isn’t inherently anything wrong with it, rather it’s the content not making use of the entirety of it.
No.
Your more or less asking for ppl to play the way you want and not let them have the freedom to chose how they play.It goes both ways you know. In games I love playing a healer. Can’t do that here.
You shouldn’t have expected to be able to either.
That’s not being rude. It’s just they said right at the beginning, before the game was even in beta, that there’d be no dedicated healers.
Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
Here we go again …
This topic comes up every … single … day … And it’s start to get really boring.
Toughts? Go back to WoW. Seriously. You won’t ever like this game.
No.
Your more or less asking for ppl to play the way you want and not let them have the freedom to chose how they play.It goes both ways you know. In games I love playing a healer. Can’t do that here.
I have to agree with Vexander here. I can’t help but feel as though Anet are really restricting their potential player base by limiting the extent to which a player can perform a given role. It really is denying a game style that a large proportion (look at WoW) of MMO players prefer to play. But then again, perhaps it’s just that Anet are deliberately looking to ignore those kind of players and I’m missing the point entirely.
Please don’t use terms that have NOTHING to do with video games to make your language sound more eloquent. It just makes you look stupid and sounds like your trying to build propaganda. Communism style game play…really? Are you sure you are using that term appropriately?
Also the game is fun even without the Holy Trinity. There are plenty of boss mechanics and encounters were you don’t need the Holy Trinity and it is just as difficult without it (Wurm, Teq, Aetherblade fractal, etc). I have no idea why people believe having a rigid class structure makes encounters fun. In WoW it was so freaking boring playing the healer. Don’t get me wrong, I love healing, but none of the encounters I did made the role “fun”, I’d just heal people who got low while everyone else did their own thing. It made dungeons feel boring after a while because no on really ever did anything new or exciting, I’d just use heals, dps would just use their rotations, tank would tank.
So no, the game is not boring without a Holy Trinity. I daresay it’s better without it because I can role any class I want, play how I want without worrying about a “comp” with friends and I like it that way.
The trinity = boring.
No trinity is more interesting.
In terms of PvE, I think the Trinity-less system can work, providing the content in the game encourages players to think out their approach (unlike in the Trinity system, where players are already told ‘you need this, this and this’). This is the main advantage of GW2’s current system; it can potentially offer more depth than a system designed around the Trinity (note the potentially).
I can’t really comment on PvP and WvW, since I don’t really play them to the level as to where I could compare it to other games (although, me and my friends used to roam quite frequently, and because our builds were built around each other to cover out stregnths and weaknesses, we could often take down numbers larger than ours).
In terms of addictiveness, addictiveness doesn’t always equal fun. I find this game fun, and yet I don’t feel the need to play everyday, whereas with WoW, I had to take a step back and ask myself why I was logging in everyday, despite being bored out of my mind. Not to mention everyone finds different things ‘addicting’ or compelling; one person might find healing addicting, another might find a particular game-mode addicting, regardless of how they’re playing it, whereas I personally get the most pleasure out of coming up with builds, testing and tweaking them.
In the end, I don’t think it makes for a weaker game. Unless I get proven wrong, I’ll always believe that the current system can work, and there isn’t inherently anything wrong with it, rather it’s the content not making use of the entirety of it.
No.
Your more or less asking for ppl to play the way you want and not let them have the freedom to chose how they play.It goes both ways you know. In games I love playing a healer. Can’t do that here.
You shouldn’t have expected to be able to either.
That’s not being rude. It’s just they said right at the beginning, before the game was even in beta, that there’d be no dedicated healers.
Yup, and I’m still playing. Imagine that, someone who’s willing to try something different and stick with it? I knew going into GW2 there wasn’t a holy trinity. That doesn’t change the fact I enjoy playing a healer, or that one could say I’m being, “forced to play the way someone else wants.”
Shrugs
The game is what it is. Zerg-fests are certainly… different from what I’m used to, and there are other games I can play a Healer in.
It is not going to be added to the game. I guess you either suffer and be bored or find a fun game (for you) to play. I am personally having a great time.
GW2 is nearing 2 years old. That ship has sailed and gone. Adopting a new system wouldn’t bring the trinity players back, and they’d just anger their current players.
Yup, and I’m still playing. Imagine that, someone who’s willing to try something different and stick with it? I knew going into GW2 there wasn’t a holy trinity. That doesn’t change the fact I enjoy playing a healer, or that one could say I’m being, “forced to play the way someone else wants.”
Shrugs
The game is what it is. Zerg-fests are certainly… different from what I’m used to, and there are other games I can play a Healer in.
Why not find a group of like-minded people and play a support-oriented character?
Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
I think the problem here is how ANet handled things. They didn’t want people stuck in the normal trinity roles, so they made two of them pretty much impossible to do.
What they needed to do is make it so you can play the parts, but don’t NEED to, and everyone can do without them.
City of Heroes did this pretty well, and improved on it when City of Villains came out. You had four basic roles: Tank, Damage (melee or ranged), Support (healing and/or buffs), and Control. Most ATs (classes) had something they were better at, but could do a bit of all of it. Just for fun, people did runs of various Task/Strike Forces (series of linked missions leading to big fights at the end) with just one or two ATs for the whole team.
All glass cannons (Blasters)? Worked. All Tanks? Worked. All Scrappers/Brutes/Stalkers (melee DPS)? Worked. All Controllers/Dominators (control)? Worked. All Defenders/Corruptors (support)? Worked. All Masterminds (super pet class with buffs)? Worked.
Sure, some people said CoH was too easy, but they’re saying that about GW2 already as well. That’s not the problem.
What IS the problem? Well, PvP is the problem. By having only DPS be actually effective, they only have to really balance one thing. Direct and condition damage are already giving them fits to balance, if you suddenly make support and control viable, they’ll never get it right. (And let’s be honest here, PvP was a HUGE failing in CoH because of this conflict.)
I guess what I’m saying is that they can bring in trinity roles without forcing people to rely on them, but doing so will destroy PvP of all types in this game. Variety, or PvP. They can’t have both.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
No.
Your more or less asking for ppl to play the way you want and not let them have the freedom to chose how they play.It goes both ways you know. In games I love playing a healer. Can’t do that here.
I have to agree with Vexander here. I can’t help but feel as though Anet are really restricting their potential player base by limiting the extent to which a player can perform a given role. It really is denying a game style that a large proportion (look at WoW) of MMO players prefer to play. But then again, perhaps it’s just that Anet are deliberately looking to ignore those kind of players and I’m missing the point entirely.
It has nothing to do with limiting players at all. Elementalists, Guardians, and Rangers can do a heal type build but you not be helping your group at all.
WoW forced the mechanic down people’s throats (read the Trinity) and that was the first MMO many played and got used to it. That is all it is. A.Net is not ignoring those players, if you want to play that meta, GW 1 is still around.
TL;DR:
- Bad balancing + communist style gameplay = boring = loss of players
- If trinity was in place, player skill is still a key factor in winning pvp/wvw
I don’t like the “Holy Trinity” itself. Way too simplistic, rigid and boring. That being said, having no roles at all is even worse.
GW1 did it best, I think. There weren’t strict roles like Damage/Tank/Heal, but you needed to round out your group and have particular tasks assigned to certain people.
Some would focus on pinning down the enemies and absorbing hits, some would focus on spiking down dangerous targets quickly (like enemy healers or hexers), other would focus on whittling down the enemy with massive AoE damage, others would try to support the group by buffing or healing, and others would try to debilitate the enemy etc.
And there were so many different ways you could build a group depending on what particular strategy you wanted to use or what kinds of enemies you expected to face.
In GW2 by comparison, every single enemy is basically just a bag of HP that you need race to see who does more damage before dying. You don’t have varied groups of enemies with their own distinct roles that you need to use strategy against to counter, and they all basically just rush straight at you, swinging their swords.
No ty, The game is pretty awesome with the actual mechanic.
If you want trinity, you can always play another games, and come back to gw2.
Yup, and I’m still playing. Imagine that, someone who’s willing to try something different and stick with it? I knew going into GW2 there wasn’t a holy trinity. That doesn’t change the fact I enjoy playing a healer, or that one could say I’m being, “forced to play the way someone else wants.”
Shrugs
The game is what it is. Zerg-fests are certainly… different from what I’m used to, and there are other games I can play a Healer in.
Why not find a group of like-minded people and play a support-oriented character?
Mostly because this game doesn’t interest me enough to join a guild or anything. It did at first, mind you. My friend’s list used to show everyone online all the time. Then a few months after the game launched, all my friends were inactive and the guild was dead. Mind you, the reason for that has nothing to do with the Holy Trinity, and more to do with a lack of proper end-game content.
The Holy Trinity promoted teamwork and friendships amongst players. Why? Because you need your tank, you need your healer, and you need your damage dealer. The system we have now? You don’t need anything, just yourself, because you’re a damage dealer with one powerful heal. All the mobs and bosses and dungeons were designed around this.
Maybe some people enjoy the Zerg. It’s not my personal cup of tea, but the game is still good. GW2’s claim to fame will be its amazing graphics and art. Its just a shame Anet isn’t capitalizing on that by adding new permanent zones or anything.
So no, the game is not boring without a Holy Trinity. I daresay it’s better without it because I can role any class I want, play how I want without worrying about a “comp” with friends and I like it that way.
And that’s a valid opinion, but don’t for a second presume to tell me there is some kind of agenda behind my use of language because I’m not an illiterate fool like many in the darker areas of the internet.
Language is malleable, and the general definitive ideas behind communism are that everybody is treated the same. I’m not looking to get into a political discussion through my use of adjectives.
Choose better adjectives.
Pets have been hidden due to rising Player complaints.
Please don’t use terms that have NOTHING to do with video games to make your language sound more eloquent. It just makes you look stupid and sounds like your trying to build propaganda. Communism style game play…really? Are you sure you are using that term appropriately?
Also the game is fun even without the Holy Trinity. There are plenty of boss mechanics and encounters were you don’t need the Holy Trinity and it is just as difficult without it (Wurm, Teq, Aetherblade fractal, etc). I have no idea why people believe having a rigid class structure makes encounters fun. In WoW it was so freaking boring playing the healer. Don’t get me wrong, I love healing, but none of the encounters I did made the role “fun”, I’d just heal people who got low while everyone else did their own thing. It made dungeons feel boring after a while because no on really ever did anything new or exciting, I’d just use heals, dps would just use their rotations, tank would tank.
So no, the game is not boring without a Holy Trinity. I daresay it’s better without it because I can role any class I want, play how I want without worrying about a “comp” with friends and I like it that way.
Thank you! I laughed so hard at that first paragraph, as I get so tired of seeing words like that which are only used to get people’s attention.
Back to the subject, I know there aren’t TRUE healer classes here, but aren’t water elementalists and guardians kiiiiinda like that? It’s probably a stretch, but they’re good support roles at least, especially the guardian.
So OP is the same kind of person, who bought the game without any research on it and 2 year after release he still wonders why it isn’t have a trinity when clearly stated numerous times it won’t have a standard trinity system. Yeah, same stuff always.
Close the thread pls. Thanks!
Please don’t use terms that have NOTHING to do with video games to make your language sound more eloquent. It just makes you look stupid and sounds like your trying to build propaganda. Communism style game play…really? Are you sure you are using that term appropriately?
Also the game is fun even without the Holy Trinity. There are plenty of boss mechanics and encounters were you don’t need the Holy Trinity and it is just as difficult without it (Wurm, Teq, Aetherblade fractal, etc). I have no idea why people believe having a rigid class structure makes encounters fun. In WoW it was so freaking boring playing the healer. Don’t get me wrong, I love healing, but none of the encounters I did made the role “fun”, I’d just heal people who got low while everyone else did their own thing. It made dungeons feel boring after a while because no on really ever did anything new or exciting, I’d just use heals, dps would just use their rotations, tank would tank.
So no, the game is not boring without a Holy Trinity. I daresay it’s better without it because I can role any class I want, play how I want without worrying about a “comp” with friends and I like it that way.
Thank you! I laughed so hard at that first paragraph, as I get so tired of seeing words like that which are only used to get people’s attention.
Back to the subject, I know there aren’t TRUE healer classes here, but aren’t water elementalists and guardians kiiiiinda like that? It’s probably a stretch, but they’re good support roles at least, especially the guardian.
Nods I play a Guardian, but playing one as a support role just makes it impossible to do anything on your own. At best I’ll pop that one elite Tome that has the, “Full Heal,” as its #5 skill.
The Holy Trinity promoted teamwork and friendships amongst players. Why? Because you need your tank, you need your healer, and you need your damage dealer. The system we have now? You don’t need anything, just yourself, because you’re a damage dealer with one powerful heal. All the mobs and bosses and dungeons were designed around this.
Maybe some people enjoy the Zerg. It’s not my personal cup of tea, but the game is still good. GW2’s claim to fame will be its amazing graphics and art. Its just a shame Anet isn’t capitalizing on that by adding new permanent zones or anything.
That’s the thing though. The current system could achieve that level of teamwork, as well as added depth.
However, the content needs to be designed not around the average joe being able to zerk through, but the get players to think of their approach; to make small tweaks without funneling players into a, b or c. It needs mechanics that challenge the players ability to understand their profession’s toolset, and them mechanics need to be enforced (since there are some pretty nifty mechanics if you examine some of the encounters).
I agree on the zerging though. I play by switching my UI and map icons off and just wandering around. I find the game much, much more satisfying that way.
Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
I agree with you. I recently watched this anime called Log Horizon, it’s about these people trapped in an MMORPG and they had a fight with these monsters with the holy trinty. It looked super fun. Tank Healer DPS. I loved how they coordinated.
So OP is the same kind of person, who bought the game without any research on it and 2 year after release he still wonders why it isn’t have a trinity when clearly stated numerous times it won’t have a standard trinity system. Yeah, same stuff always.
Close the thread pls. Thanks!
No, I knew full-well that there’d be no trinity system when I bought the game, I’ve played (on-and-off) since release on August 25th 2012. If you’d read my OP, you would see that this thread is used to speculate on how the game-driving ideals of trinity vs no trinity are affecting GW2. This isn’t a players-who-want-trinity vs. players-who-don’t thread. Kindly take your immaturity elsewhere.
If you want trinity: Play another game, simple as that.
If you want trinity: Play another game, simple as that.
Read the OP.
And that’s a valid opinion, but don’t for a second presume to tell me there is some kind of agenda behind my use of language because I’m not an illiterate fool like many in the darker areas of the internet.
Language is malleable, and the general definitive ideas behind communism are that everybody is treated the same. I’m not looking to get into a political discussion through my use of adjectives.
I’m not trying to get into an political discussion with you nor am I saying you are an illiterate fool, but it makes you look silly when you use philisophical and social ideas and relate them to something that doesn’t even have traces of those ideas.
It’s the same thing as me noting that Crafting is vertical progression and costs more and more as you get higher, therefore it is a capitalist based system and the poor will never benefit. The balancing attitude of Anet is also fascist therefore because they buff certain classes and nerf others. Also, map completion is imperialistic as I’m conquering the whole word via exploration. Also, the game is anti-sylvaritism because Scarlet blew up LA and now everyone is feeling all anzy about Sylvari. See how silly that is? Granted, i’m exaggerating but there is no proper place for those terms =/
Thank you! I laughed so hard at that first paragraph, as I get so tired of seeing words like that which are only used to get people’s attention.
Back to the subject, I know there aren’t TRUE healer classes here, but aren’t water elementalists and guardians kiiiiinda like that? It’s probably a stretch, but they’re good support roles at least, especially the guardian.
Yes, you can support with those classes but the problem is that healing power scales so terribly that it usually isn’t worth it. That and the fact that every class has a high self-heal makes healing pointless as people can just heal themselves. That’s another topic altogether though.
I agree with you. I recently watched this anime called Log Horizon, it’s about these people trapped in an MMORPG and they had a fight with these monsters with the holy trinty. It looked super fun. Tank Healer DPS. I loved how they coordinated.
To be fair, I’ve seen anime that makes playing tennis look like an awesome life or death battle. Heck, I’ve seen an anime make an incredibly dramatic and awesome scene out of someone writing names in a notebook.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
And that’s a valid opinion, but don’t for a second presume to tell me there is some kind of agenda behind my use of language because I’m not an illiterate fool like many in the darker areas of the internet.
Language is malleable, and the general definitive ideas behind communism are that everybody is treated the same. I’m not looking to get into a political discussion through my use of adjectives.
I’m not trying to get into an political discussion with you nor am I saying you are an illiterate fool, but it makes you look silly when you use philisophical and social ideas and relate them to something that doesn’t even have traces of those ideas.
It’s the same thing as me noting that Crafting is vertical progression and costs more and more as you get higher, therefore it is a capitalist based system and the poor will never benefit. The balancing attitude of Anet is also fascist therefore because they buff certain classes and nerf others. Also, map completion is imperialistic as I’m conquering the whole word via exploration. Also, the game is anti-sylvaritism because Scarlet blew up LA and now everyone is feeling all anzy about Sylvari. See how silly that is? Granted, i’m exaggerating but there is no proper place for those terms =/
Thank you! I laughed so hard at that first paragraph, as I get so tired of seeing words like that which are only used to get people’s attention.
Back to the subject, I know there aren’t TRUE healer classes here, but aren’t water elementalists and guardians kiiiiinda like that? It’s probably a stretch, but they’re good support roles at least, especially the guardian.
Yes, you can support with those classes but the problem is that healing power scales so terribly that it usually isn’t worth it. That and the fact that every class has a high self-heal makes healing pointless as people can just heal themselves. That’s another topic altogether though.
I appreciate your take on it. I agree with your assertions there. I was merely using it as a simplistic way to describe how all professions are supposed to be able to equally perform any role, which was another of Anet’s founding philosophies.
Yes, you can support with those classes but the problem is that healing power scales so terribly that it usually isn’t worth it. That and the fact that every class has a high self-heal makes healing pointless as people can just heal themselves. That’s another topic altogether though.
Heh, reminds me of the first time I did a dungeon, way back when the game first launched. Caudecus’ Manor, Storymode. Someone in the party went and said to our Guardian, “Heal.” The guy’s response was, “Hit your #6 button, son.”
WHOOOOOSH that is the sound of op post as it soars past the heads of most of these comments that clearly didn’t read your post.
@Bryzy I believe it is the importance and worth your character achieves specializing in a trinity based role well.
In GW2dps it really doesn’t matter, just bring whatever & whomever call it a day. Everyone does the same is the same w/a profession skin slapped on.
Not really. GW2 , it does matter. I usually bring my Mesmer which does not have the classic GS – Pew Pew build that so many use. Mine is about control and interrupt, so it is way different but I guess coming from GW1, I understand that more. Since I do that, it is easier for my little roaming group in WvW and/or in Dungeons. The new skill updates should even make more varieties possible and I can’t wait.
I find people coming from WoW and the Trinity-based games are than likely to just do ZERKER or bust. I think it is coming from the Trinity mind set that where you can’t think outside the box is the issue. I remember playing Rift and it was all a DPS race so I think the mind set comes from playing and being stuck on the Trinity not with GW2.
Well, Mesmers never really fitted into the Trinity, even in GW1. I think A.Net realized they could capitalize on not having the stale Trinity mechanic.
I don’t think a Trinity-based group would be able to go through any of the Fractals – the mechanics are more varied and complex there (just using it as an example).
Well, Mesmers never really fitted into the Trinity, even in GW1. I think A.Net realized they could capitalize on not having the stale Trinity mechanic.
I think you could have a point there, though I’m getting the impression that that capitalization is now depleting for some of the reasons I mentioned in the OP. They’ve certainly catered to a specific audience with this game, and I don’t think it’s a great long-term business plan.
I’m new, it’s been 4 days i’m here, i’m lvl 41 guardian but i had this great teacher who tought me about pvp and skills, and showed me the game, and i’ve been practicing in this non-trinity style of playing. And i love it.
It’s much more challengin, you can try lot’s of things, you have traits to best your builds, you have, at least with my guardian, 19 utilities!!!! On top of other 10 abilities which can vary depending on your weapon, you can even equip a scepter and change the 4 and 5 skill depending if what you are using.
It’s just fantastic, the combinations, finding what you find best, trying to make up some new stuff. I can’t wait to start making pvp and WvW.
You don’t need to just grind super awesome-legendary swords to win a fight because on top of that gear you’re a DPS which thanks to those super rare legendary blades not even a good tank can stop you.
Here is strategy vs strategy, who has more control in a fight, can support himself and also deal damage, is who is going to win, doesn’t matter if you have this super rare sword if you can’t even reach the other guy because of all the control he has over you, right?
You just can’t go full damage because you lack of control and your little support will make you lose, you can’t go full control/support because you probably won’t make enough damage.
I don’t miss the trinity at all, i wanna practice this non-trinity playstyle and be good at it. What i do miss is something like a global chat, or guilds where people actually talk. I’ve been invited and joined like 4 guilds, not.a.single.guild.message. I don’t get it, you don’t need to grind that much, lvling is fun, i am getting like 1k exp from descovering waypoints!! Why not stop to talk about something, idk..
Yes, because trying out a new system for classes in a game instead of “the meta” is the act of a communist.
… Come on, seriously? Are you seriously comparing Anet to the actions of countries like China? Of course, you had to bring politics into a game discussion. Oh well, I’ll just wait for the kitten to fall about that.
Now then. You’re also forgetting the social reason for NOT using the trinity. You know how it’s currently “zerkerorgtfokthxbaiNOOB” for various things? That same crap occurred in GW1. Demanding certain skills and runes in armor and to do certain things in fights. This happened more often than it does in this game.
Back then I played a ranger (when they were good and good go without a pet screwing things up) that didnt fit any meta build (I believe it was close to 1/4 second Barrages). I ended up duo’ing the last half of one of the harder shiverpeak missions in gw1 with a trapper ranger, including the boss. Know what I was being told?
“Die so we can restart.”
“Why are you still doing the mission, we all died.”
“Where are you going?”
“Die noob, we need to restart the mission.”
“WTF, DIE SO WE CAN RESTART THE MISSION.” <-3 people decided to leave at this point instead of wait.
“Crap, it’s the boss…finally we can restart the mission after 20 minutes.”
“HOW ARE YOU NOT DYING TO THE BOSS!?” <-my reply was “because I cant.”
“Jesus, they’re beating the boss…”
“OMG, KILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLIT”
“How did you even do this?”
I didnt bother explaining and simply went with “praise me for I am your god.” Basically, wild tangent aside, it succeeded because I didnt fit into the meta by choice, and neither did my ranger fit the “trinity” meta. Class specific my kitten . Any class could kill, heal, and support. … I’m gonna apologize at this point, was writing this while watching tv and I no longer remember the point I was trying to reach.
The community style play doesn’t hurt anything, IMO. Not competing for resource nodes, for loot (although I do wish better things dropped from dungeon bosses), or for mobs for quests is a nice difference. It’s more annoying when playing WoW (and FFXIV to an extent) when you’re not getting credit for kills because someone is tagging and one shotting everything in the area (in XIV they give you credit if you do damage to it, but won’t get drops, which is painful if you’re trying to farm a material from a non-quest mob, but a class with superior AoE slaughters them all first).
What I feel makes dungeoning and group content dull, right now, is that there’s very little focus on teamplay. Most dungeon bosses can be fought and killed in a corner, everyone wearing berserker stats (as in, being forcefully shoehorned to be DPS and not play a role you might like more, namely support, or utilizing conditions, or even focusing more on taking damage while providing AoE healing for the group to help keep people alive).
What makes the encounters dull is how simple they are when players want to cheese them. Some encounters are actually pretty fun when you’re not stacked in a corner auto attacking, which is partly why I wouldn’t mind Anet instituting shorter leashes on their bosses (can’t leave the boss room), or collision between the boss and between the players (only in dungeon instances), or something to at least make you have to fight the thing. Bosses with more complicated mechanics, faster abilities, who aren’t just HP sponges would also be a nice addition — make people need to use blast finishers, leap finishers, and combo fields for certain situations.
The community style play doesn’t hurt anything, IMO. Not competing for resource nodes, for loot (although I do wish better things dropped from dungeon bosses), or for mobs for quests is a nice difference. It’s more annoying when playing WoW (and FFXIV to an extent) when you’re not getting credit for kills because someone is tagging and one shotting everything in the area (in XIV they give you credit if you do damage to it, but won’t get drops, which is painful if you’re trying to farm a material from a non-quest mob, but a class with superior AoE slaughters them all first).
What I feel makes dungeoning and group content dull, right now, is that there’s very little focus on teamplay. Most dungeon bosses can be fought and killed in a corner, everyone wearing berserker stats (as in, being forcefully shoehorned to be DPS and not play a role you might like more, namely support, or utilizing conditions, or even focusing more on taking damage while providing AoE healing for the group to help keep people alive).
What makes the encounters dull is how simple they are when players want to cheese them. Some encounters are actually pretty fun when you’re not stacked in a corner auto attacking, which is partly why I wouldn’t mind Anet instituting shorter leashes on their bosses (can’t leave the boss room), or collision between the boss and between the players (only in dungeon instances), or something to at least make you have to fight the thing. Bosses with more complicated mechanics, faster abilities, who aren’t just HP sponges would also be a nice addition — make people need to use blast finishers, leap finishers, and combo fields for certain situations.
No game can really FORCE true Team play. Forced grouping, using the Trinity, is NOT TEAM BASED-PLAYING. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL PLAYER to be TEAM based or not. I CHOOSE to be a team player, others do not. It is your choice in this game. At least you have a choice.
I realise that some are advocates of the “skill factor” (i.e. removing the holy trinity means player skill plays a larger role in pvp/wvw), however I don’t believe this is necessarily the case. If we had the classic DPS/Tank/Healer roles, players’ individual skill would still determine the outcome of a fight. A really good tank would wear down DPS players, a really good DPS player might out-damage a healer’s healing power etc etc.
You mean if we had DPS/Tank/Healer roles, the Healer’s (and to a lesser extent the Tank’s) individual skill would play a much more important role? And the DPS players would just spam their optimal rotation as they do in most games. There is a reason loads of people play DPS classes in Trinity games, it’s because it’s easy and they can always blame the Tank or the Healer when they lose. It’s very rare to blame a DPS character for defeat, because their job is just facerolling on their keyboard and shouting “HEAL HEAL” when things go bad.
By removing the Trinity, there is the potential to remove this faceroll from the DPS characters, everyone has to take care of themselves, just take a look at how hard the dungeons of the game used to be for most people when the game was new.
Eventually players became better at the game once they understood the core mechanics but also they found other ways to “bypass” the difficulty and there are still mechanics that simply don’t work. Clear exploits (going into corners so that aoes don’t reach you), bad game mechanics (defiant), abuse of fight mechanics (stacking on top of bosses so their attacks don’t hit you), absurd dps increase of various skills in certain situations (Fiery Rush against a Wall, Ice Storm vs large objects) and many others completely lower the difficulty of the content.
It’s not a matter of skill balance, or even stat balance. It’s badly designed encounters, encounters that looked good at first, but their serious defiencies appeared later on, once players started abusing them.
Op, the Holy Trinity is in the game, with having 3 exeptions: warrior, thief and newcomer- elementalist.
They are the only 3 class who fulfills and completes the Holy Trinity; they can flawlessly tank, heal and dps with having no effort whatsoever.
You can see where the outcries of unfairness and injustice derive from.
You can see where the Fun ended.
You can see where the Fun ends.
You can see where many had walked away.
You can see why many are in the process of walking away.
To begin with, why make exceptions to only these 3 classes?
Isn’t that creating an unhealthy, destructive environment to the game and the player base?
Isn’t that practicing Unfairness and Favoritism?
Isn’t that called Favortism? " The practice of giving unfair preferential treatment to one person or group at the expense of another "?
Isn’t that called Unfairness- " an inclination to favor one group or view or opinion over alternatives "?
Obviously it is, don’t you agree?
To conclude,
Because of this Favorite, Unjust and Unfair system, the remaining class feel bored, frustrated, hurt, broken, desolate and feel that they don’t have the mean to contribute anything, and no longer feel belong to because of these Holy Trinity Classes.
My suggestion to Arena.net, either make the Holy Trinity also available to the remaining classes or to not have it at all; with no exception or favoring whatsoever
(i really like this game, but once again… as long favoritism remains, my devotion and commitment will continue to decrease)
Advocate of Justice, Liberty and Truth
(edited by Burnfall.9573)
the problem with GW2 is not that it don’t have the trinity.
the problem is that it has one role DPS ,
two other roles support and control severely under-perform.
lets play with some party diagrams:
D= DPS, S= support, C= control
best 5 man party : D,D,D,D,D
second best 5 man party D,D,D,D,C
third place best 5 man party D,D,D,D,S
…
…
one place before last worst 5 man party C,S,S,S,S
worst 5 man party S,S,S,S,S
you got the idea..
if the game had a real diversity of builds and roles, then parties of the following formation would have been equal:
D,D,D,D,D == S,S,C,C,D == C,C,C,C,C == S,S,S,S,S==D,D,D,S,C
but they are not.
that’s why we cant have nice things.
introducing hard trinity is not the solution, making support and control builds useful is the solution.
@ Bryzy
I will never play a “Holy Trinity” game again. I hatted waiting for a healer in GW1 and then hear the group blame them for an even failure.
I do enjoy making my own fate and taking responsibility for how an event turns out. Even soloing impossible odds.
In Fantasy how many heroes needed a a dps, and healer to make them a hero and save the day?
Thanks goodness ANet did away with the “Holy Trinity”
No game can really FORCE true Team play. Forced grouping, using the Trinity, is NOT TEAM BASED-PLAYING. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL PLAYER to be TEAM based or not. I CHOOSE to be a team player, others do not. It is your choice in this game. At least you have a choice.
Games can, namely by having a complicated enough encounter where players need to communicate and decide upon actions together that will lead to survival and killing the boss in a timely fashion. WvW is a good example of forced teamplay, since if no one plays as a part of the team in that gamemode, they will all die.
I also didn’t point to using the trinity, but at least providing a reason to be any other role than zerker DPS. There are support abilities in the game, there are support builds, there are tankier builds and condition builds, but most groups don’t want to see them or deal with them because it’s simply faster if everyone goes full zerk and stacks on every encounter…. which requires no teamwork besides the occasional rezzing and just pushing out damage: no communication needed, you can even go afk during the fight and still have the boss killed in a timely manner. Putting in a little bit more challenge and getting people to wok together in the dungeon environment would… make it more fun and less like farming events.
And when you go into group content, like a dungeon, shouldn’t a player want to be a team player? What’s the point in doing group content, with a team, if you would rather do solo content?
‘Communist gameplay’. Lol. That tickled me.
So OP is the same kind of person, who bought the game without any research on it and 2 year after release he still wonders why it isn’t have a trinity when clearly stated numerous times it won’t have a standard trinity system. Yeah, same stuff always.
Close the thread pls. Thanks!
No, I knew full-well that there’d be no trinity system when I bought the game, I’ve played (on-and-off) since release on August 25th 2012. If you’d read my OP, you would see that this thread is used to speculate on how the game-driving ideals of trinity vs no trinity are affecting GW2. This isn’t a players-who-want-trinity vs. players-who-don’t thread. Kindly take your immaturity elsewhere.
You just did a 360 turnaround on a simple whine post, it’s the same in a fancy dress. I know rangers are upset, but don’t blame the system, which works as indended.
The slow and meaningless “balancing” process is where these fail.
And keep your arrogant attitude to yourself. Please.
I’ve noticed more players recently giving up this game/logging far fewer hours to pursue real life or other gaming ventures. I’ve no idea if this is a legitimate trend (it most likely isn’t in the scheme of things) as I don’t have access to Anet’s playerbase statistics.
That’s what happens when a MMO has been out for 19 months without any significant changes. There’s not a very strong pursuit for many items in the endgame except for legendaries, which people are either: still grinding out, have more than any respectable human being should, or have given up completely on.
I somewhat blame some lame armor design and how cheap some of the token armors are. I could really see WvW and dungeons becoming a big endgame thing that’s a nice step between karma/crafted/exotic drops and ascended/legendary equipment if the designs were crafted well and they cost like 500-1000 tokens each, not just for the set.
I don’t think it’s the trinity, mind you, although I will always actively support the trinity more than GW2 because I love driving a defensive game (55hp monk/600 smite in Guild wars 1, L80 Priest and Paladin in WoW – so I’ve always enjoyed the defensive mechanics, which is why I enjoy guardian so much in this game).
Anyway, I think it’s just a juxtaposition that this game has polarized content (either too easy or comparatively too hard/too long) without much additional content to bridge the gap to incite play and no trinity.
For an example, look at Guild Wars 1. There was your typical max armor – which we can view as exotics in this game. They looked pretty bland but they got the job done. Then there were nicer, prestige skins that people had to buy – and they cost more. And certain skins, like Kurzick, Luxon, Vabbian and Deldrimor, ended up costing more than other prestige skins by long shots. Then in the very end you had FoW armor which cost much more than any other skin or prestige skin, but it was skill bridged nicely with skins like elite Kurzick or Vabbian.
Guild Wars 2 has no bridge. It has Droks and then FoW.
(edited by Cuddy.6247)
I have to constantly say this: there are still roles in this game. The roles are simply more subtle and nuanced:
Thief: Defiance stripper, aggro management, defensive utilities, evasion tank.
Guardian: Offensive buffer, Healer, block tank, projectile management.
Elementalist: Offensive and defensive buffer, healer, combo field user/finisher highest PVE DPS, miscellaneous utility
Engineer: Debuffer, high CC and immobilization, Healer, buffer, combo field user/finisher, extremely versatile miscellaneous utility (capable of fulfilling any role to a satisfactory extent)
Mesmer: Mobility, aggro management, high CC, block and evasion tank, projectile management, high miscellaneous utility, and also sometimes healer.
Warrior: unique buffs, self buffer, high durability for sustained DPS.
Necromancer: Debuffer, high durability, miscellaneous utility
Ranger: Rage magnet (seriously though, I don’t know much about rangers)
Running around in dungeons with pugs a lot, I’ll find that we’ll be lacking in the strangest utilities that other classes have. For example, sometimes we’ll fail due to a lack of projectile blocking/reflecting, or a lack of condi cleanses, or a lack of defensive utilities via protection/blinds/heals, or the strangest one which was a lack of range. Different classes have different combo fields, which and different finishers to use in those fields.
At no point in fulfilling any of these roles should a class have to sacrifice independence. This is what the trinity does, though. To have the trinity, you need DPS that is too weak to take hits, heals that are ineffective except with durable targets, and an aggro manager who lacks the durability and DPS to fully survive an encounter.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Guardian: Offensive buffer, Healer, block tank, projectile management.
Engineer: Debuffer, high CC and immobilization, Healer, buffer, combo field user/finisher, extremely versatile miscellaneous utility (capable of fulfilling any role to a satisfactory extent)
Ranger: Rage magnet (seriously though, I don’t know much about rangers)
I would say guardian plays quite well defensively too, with their consecrations and shouts, they can really plant themselves in one spot and survive just about anything, while providing an assortment of boons to their entire party. I currently have three different guardians due to not enjoying many other classes, but I think their strongest suit is that they have some active defensive and offensive mechanics that definitely cater to all of the WoW Paladins (and heaven knows those were always in stock).
Engineer is another class I enjoy, it’s great for PUGs but I find myself seriously lacking when I play with my guild. They aren’t really worth anything if everyone else in the party is bringing some use.
Ranger is good too, although I can definitely see April 15th patch giving them the love they deserve. With having the least amount of party support (pretty much Spotter and Frost Spirit are all they are good for), it will be nice to see pet skills auto activate (brown bear’s Shake It Off will probably be a favorite) and their sword chain will be breakable to dodge, thus making swordhorn a more viable choice for PvE in most scenarios. Not to mention longbow will have a faster firing rate (arrows will fly faster, more specifically)…all in all, they might be a rage magnet right now but that’s because between pets, sword auto attack chain and lack of much party support they’re easily down there with Necromancer in terms of usefulness.
Of course the game is going to have roles. What it DOESNT have are concrete archetype roles, IE the “trinity.” There’s no monk in GW2 when any number of classes are able to either passively or actively fill that role while doing another one. Guardians for example, are literally the trinity rolled up into a single class. They can heal (for immense amounts with the right traits), support (to a disgustingly high degree, moreso after patch), and can deal fairly substantial damage on their own.