Guild Wars 2

Gele.2048:

yes its boring and yes it leaves opening for zerk gear only and dps builds

etc

I think I’ll restate my point. What these players want is not necessarily trinity. They want to do things like like run support traits in Shadow Arts on a Thief and be considered an asset instead of a burden for it. They also likely despise the fact that the optimal way to play PvE in GW2 is to stack in a “safe” spot, as Dalanor’s videos demonstrate. They crave Active, Dynamic and Frantic combat and the game gives them the tools for it, unfortunately the enemies are too stupid to provide the challenge necessary.

Not sure if this has already been posted, but this idea that GW2 was doing away with the Holy Trinity was just marketing BS and semantics. Anet specifically said in the beginning that GW2 would be focused more on 1) damage, 2) support, and 3) control, instead of the traditional trinity. Yes, it wouldn’t be the Holy Trinity in the traditional sense, because instead of needing a dedicated healer, you’d have support roles providing valuable boons, and instead of face-tanking damage, the focus would be more on controlling the mob, as well as dodging any uncontrollable damage output.

The problem isn’t that there’s no Holy Trinity in this game. The problem is that the core game design has removed the need for support and control roles in PVE. The one truth in GW2 is that damage trumps all, and that’s what makes it boring. I have and will keep creating support builds, but I am not kidding myself; I have yet to see a single fight where bringing my support build would actually help rather than hurt the group. If you know how to position yourself for each fight, are able to read enemy skill telegraphs, and know how to dodge, the only thing you ever need is damage. Anything else is just making the fight longer (and in some cases, that means failing the fight) to satisfy your own ego (i.e. that your build can’t be sub-optimal because it is optimized to your play style).

TL;DR: The game isn’t boring because it doesn’t have the Holy Trinity; the game is boring because it’s turned into the Holy Unity (i.e. damage).

Dual.8953:

I think I’ll restate my point. What these players want is not necessarily trinity. They want to do things like like run support traits in Shadow Arts on a Thief and be considered an asset instead of a burden for it. They also likely despise the fact that the optimal way to play PvE in GW2 is to stack in a “safe” spot, as Dalanor’s videos demonstrate. They crave Active, Dynamic and Frantic combat and the game gives them the tools for it, unfortunately the enemies are too stupid to provide the challenge necessary.

My videos weren’t about corner stacking. Non-zerker gear is viable, you can afk kill bosses with it and healing works fine for a degree.
Thanks for observing nothing and contribute to the problem.

Dual.8953:

I think I’ll restate my point. What these players want is not necessarily trinity. They want to do things like like run support traits in Shadow Arts on a Thief and be considered an asset instead of a burden for it. They also likely despise the fact that the optimal way to play PvE in GW2 is to stack in a “safe” spot, as Dalanor’s videos demonstrate. They crave Active, Dynamic and Frantic combat and the game gives them the tools for it, unfortunately the enemies are too stupid to provide the challenge necessary.

^

This. Every fight boils down to stack on a point and dodge. The game has very high potential combat mechanics, but the fight design has been terrible. The sad thing is too many people still have trouble with the current fight design so I do not foresee the community reacting well to actual challenging content. Right now, even fights like Tequatl and Triple Wurm are not actually difficult; they’re just artificially difficult due to not being able to control who is (or isn’t) participating.

Serenity.6149:

This. Every fight boils down to stack on a point and dodge.

Than regear and facetank everything without a dodge. Your problem is solved.
If you and your likeminded wouldn’t crave for faster killing times what zerkers are capable of and stop with the complaining and actually spend some time to make a build for it or for gods sake just use google, you wouldn’t have any problem.
Capisci?

Oh and make your own groups, that solves a lot of problem too.

What these players want is not necessarily trinity. They want to do things like like run support traits in Shadow Arts on a Thief and be considered an asset instead of a burden for it.

So if their concept of support isn’t actually support, why should that playstyle be supported? Why should ANet allow their builds to be just as good as people who take support traits that actually contribute significantly to supporting the team?

They also likely despise the fact that the optimal way to play PvE in GW2 is to stack in a “safe” spot, as Dalanor’s videos demonstrate

But it’s not. If you watch our streams (Death and Taxes) we don’t safe spot Mossman, we don’t afk range Bloomhunger, we don’t use some safe spot for Alphard, we don’t do any of that. And we’re one of the top dungeon guilds. Safe spots are not optimal at all, and stacking =/= safe spot. People who claim this just watch too many of our videos and think “oh well it’s faceroll since they stack in a corner”, ignoring the actual tactics involved (I’ve joined a COE group that stacked for Alpha and then were confused why he wasn’t dying – spoiler – it’s because their DPS was atrocious and stacking isn’t an auto win).

They crave Active, Dynamic and Frantic combat and the game gives them the tools for it, unfortunately the enemies are too stupid to provide the challenge necessary.

No, they crave passive combat where they can function as tanks, healers and buffbots. What you may or may not have noticed, but it’s the elite, using full berserker gear who take full advantage of the active combat in this game by performing solos of Lupicus, the entire Arah dungeon and some open world bosses (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeXr0S3Cdfo watch this and claim it isn’t active combat).

I really wish people would stop claiming this game was faceroll, the amount of groups I’ve been in for Arah that have almost or have partially disbanded because they just flat out can’t perform skips or bosses is insane considering the content has been available to play for almost two years.

The problem is that the core game design has removed the need for support and control roles in PVE

The mesmer will be removing stacks in group settings too.

(6:20 – 7:15, 10:50 – 12:20)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzILYccc_NM&list=UUr8DAsjA7r5s2bLlXv_SbwA (condition cleansing, aegis, reflects, might stacking, quickness, etc.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IaySIyZh4o (offensive buff stacking, projectile reflection, stability, aegis, quickness)

People like you are why I started recording things like this – I’m sick of people spreading the misinformation that support and control roles don’t exist. They do – it’s just you can’t be a CC spammer or a buffbot. You need to do CC, support and DPS.

I’m literally fed up of people ignoring my posts and spreading this myth of the game just being DPS – and I’m going to repeatedly link these videos until people stop claiming it. I recommend people saving links like these as bookmarks too to whip them out when people start making this false claim.

This. Every fight boils down to stack on a point and dodge.

And every trinity game involves DPS-ers spamming a rotation, tanks holding aggro and healers healing. See? I can simplify games too! I want you to “stack on a point and dodge” Lupicus and Alphard. Please record.

I remember seeing the 55 Healer build in Guild Wars 1 PvP. An entire team of really good damage dealers couldn’t even make a dent in one 55 healer. Is that the balance you were referring to?

-hugs hendo in a manly way-

hendo.1940:

What these players want is not necessarily trinity. They want to do things like like run support traits in Shadow Arts on a Thief and be considered an asset instead of a burden for it.

So if their concept of support isn’t actually support, why should that playstyle be supported? Why should ANet allow their builds to be just as good as people who take support traits that actually contribute significantly to supporting the team?

Frankly, Shadow Arts is more of a PvP trait line, with stats (Toughness and Healing) being geared towards bunker play, and traits being mostly about stealth — and personal stealth is more of a selfish profession feature than it is a group one. the only part of the trait line that is group-oriented is blinds, and those are both: readily available via weapon choice; and primarily useful versus trash in group play, not bosses.

Not all traits, and not all trait lines are viable or even desirable in all game modes, nor should they be.

Dalanor.5387:

phys.7689:

also, anet combined CC and DPS skills, which makes many classes use CC or makes them lower DPS to allow some CC.

Can you help me out what do you mean? Only ability came to my mind is Pistol whip, due to the daze it cause, which is actually isn’t bad dps.

the problem is that some skills, like pistol whip need to serve many functions

its DPS its also evasion, and its also a stun. So if im asking a theif not to use it, im decreasing his survivability and dps. So a theif is going to say, is your 1/2 second CC worth my dps/survival? and most cases the answer is probably no.

other problem skills are
hilt bash (lose pet damage +50% on next hit)
Chaos storm (random effects)
spectral wall (protection for team)
overcharge shot(dps combined with stability)
counterattack (defensive and DPS skill)
explosive rockets (dps burst)
big old bomb (blast finisher and DPS)
steal when traited for duration decrease (less mug, less hp renewel less other benefits)

not to mention any trait that benefits from stuns interupts dazes etc is like at best 20% less effective on bosses.

Essentially the system makes you sacrifice utility/damage/defense in exchange for small CC effects.

Its a bad solution imo. That isnt to say there is no teamwork or play involved with using it, its just not a good way of dealing with boss mechanics.

@hendo:
Yah that vid of soloing the golem’s what I like. Embracing movement rather than trying to minimize it. I go in dungeons an most of them time, it’s “stand here and maximize dps as much as possible as the enemies funnel themselves in” Sure it’s effective but it lacks aesthetic style. Might be because I’m usually playing fighting games or PSO2 when I’m not playing GW2.

phys.7689:

the problem is that some skills, like pistol whip need to serve many functions

its DPS its also evasion, and its also a stun. So if im asking a theif not to use it, im decreasing his survivability and dps. So a theif is going to say, is your 1/2 second CC worth my dps/survival? and most cases the answer is probably no.

Are you alright mate? You lost your sense.
You even mention the evade in it … You don’t need to sacrficice anything. You won’t be hit, you deal a skrittload of damage and it strips defiant. Win-win-win.

other problem skills are
hilt bash (lose pet damage +50% on next hit)
Chaos storm (random effects)
spectral wall (protection for team)
overcharge shot(dps combined with stability)
counterattack (defensive and DPS skill)
explosive rockets (dps burst)
big old bomb (blast finisher and DPS)
steal when traited for duration decrease (less mug, less hp renewel less other benefits

Try to see the overall picture. Why would you use a GS on ranger? Defensive dps weapon. Thats right. Evade on auto attack, a mobility skill, a block that can be used for an extended time if you are further from the enemy to not attack back and the hilt bash which has it’s uses. Control AND damage. It’s not just one of them. Both. What’s your problem?

Chaos storm is random, that’s the skills problem, not their defensive nature. However as a mesmer you need defense from stealth and clones and Chaos storm does neither.

Spectral wall is a pvp skill, it has multiple uses. You pop it before 2 zerg classes to give protection to the frontliners or force stability on the enemy at choke points or outright fear them everywhere. And its an ethereal field yay!

Overcharge shot CC’s yourself so it’s have issues already.

Now we talk about PvE or not? Rocket turret is non-viable there nor others.

Big ol’ bomb is better for pre-stacking, due to it’s knockdown, but IF you need it, it can be used to remove Defiant mid fight if you stack might again, since the mob won’t move away from the effect.

Still, we talk about PvE, you won’t trait for steal, except with that 5 pt minor in Trickery.

not to mention any trait that benefits from stuns interupts dazes etc is like at best 20% less effective on bosses.

Essentially the system makes you sacrifice utility/damage/defense in exchange for small CC effects.

Its a bad solution imo. That isnt to say there is no teamwork or play involved with using it, its just not a good way of dealing with boss mechanics.

Do we have traits like that?
See above, you get more, than loss usually.
You can’t deal with it in pugs. Got it. Neither of us can, because of random spamming.

edit: Oh i remember, warriors got a Master trait for extra hammer damage on CC’d enemies, but if you dare to use a hammer for dps …

Serenity.6149:

…The problem isn’t that there’s no Holy Trinity in this game. The problem is that the core game design has removed the need for support and control roles in PVE. The one truth in GW2 is that damage trumps all, and that’s what makes it boring…

I think you make a valid point here. I would certainly like to see Anet concentrate and build on the most viable build(s) for each profession. Of course that’s not to say that they shouldn’t stop trying to improve build diversity, but it would provide a bit more of a niche for each profession that is closer trinity but without its downfalls.

I realise this would run the risk of: “oh if you wanna play support, roll an ele”; “oh if you wanna play a debuffer, roll a necro”; “if you wanna play healer, roll a guardian” etc, however isn’t that the way it is at the moment? Profession roles are unavoidable no matter how balanced you try to make the game.

Sorry to bring up WoW again, but best case scenario you were viable only with 2 of your talent lines in PvE. So having 1 or 2 viable option here imo is not a bad thing. Hell, everything is viable, but not necessary optional. But first, define optional.
Necromancers got like 6 builds (or even more) and they are still underwhelming in PvE because they don’t have tools for group content due to their selfish design, meanwhile the holy protector of innocents, the Guardian is almost required everywhere. Oh and guardians got 2 highly optional option too, which imo is fine. But you can run AH cleric too, it’s viable. Mind you (all of you) control and support is independent from gear (outside of healing, but they scale badly anyway) and tied to weapons or utility skills. You can push that button in zerker and in PVT too.
I just quote myself, cuz that awesome i am.

Dalanor.5387:

If you invest time and effort in the game and get some encounter knowledge, PvE actually becomes way more easy.
Using berserker gear and optimised builds allows you to burn mobs so fast that you can move on. Every other MMO has this somehow. More damage = faster killing times = profit. However GW2 has no punishment for fail. No enrage timer, no lockout from istance, even item damage will go away soon, so there is actually no point to run only berserker. Hell, you can even waypoint back for free in the dungeons.
Sure, you can killing bosses AFK, pressing 1 with clerics gear as seen >HERE<, but honestly, do you enjoy a 30 minute fight instead a 20 second one?

My problem with this mindset is the following. You are a casual. You don’t have time. Why not run a faster build? Oh, you don’t care or actually have time. Doesn’t matter, people are people. But why you join in a zerker group? Oh, you don’t care. Sure. Okay. Play how you want. But they want to play how they want.
Make your own group and stop complaining.

ps: Zerker will be still the best dps option and anything else with Ferocity will be more inferior to Berserker. End of story.

I dont think that the lack of the trinity makes it boring, but anet have not spend that much time on building and improving WvW, cant say much for PvE though dont play it much.

But yes the way the game has been set out, zerging is the best option, which is what makes things SO boring! If you want somethign done quickly, with success and little effort then a zerg is the answer.

Anet needs to change the mechanics of events I think so to force groups to split up and actually play rather than spam skill 1.
I did the marionette even for a small while, although you needed at least 100 people to do it, it did split you up into 4 groups of 25, then further into groups of 5-7. This mean all players had to fight and if one group failed you all failed.
So more things like that, but something more engaging, because even in the 25 man group you were still zerging each path whilst waiting your turn, which wasnt that much fun.

OP, I know you don’t think player skill is taken into account without trinity, but I can tell you, at least in PvP, player skill is definitely taken into account. How do I know? When you play enough you can actually tell who is good and who is bad. I’ve been able to take out two bad Thieves by myself as a Guardian in one map, then next map get completely owned by just one really good Thief.

And PvE: have you ever run a dungeon with a good group versus a bad group? If you’ve ever been in a group and you guys keep wiping, things are taking forever, etc, then it’s a bad group. If you’ve been a group and next thing you know you’re done with the dungeon, nobody died, nobody even had to speak to each other, that’s a good group.

Player skill is taken into account Trinity or no. Without trinity you get to enjoy the luxury of not having to wait for tank and heals for hours, or risk shudder getting a “bad tank”. Man I don’t miss those days at all.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Kit.3986:

Dusty Moon.4382:

No game can really FORCE true Team play. Forced grouping, using the Trinity, is NOT TEAM BASED-PLAYING. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL PLAYER to be TEAM based or not. I CHOOSE to be a team player, others do not. It is your choice in this game. At least you have a choice.

Games can, namely by having a complicated enough encounter where players need to communicate and decide upon actions together that will lead to survival and killing the boss in a timely fashion. WvW is a good example of forced teamplay, since if no one plays as a part of the team in that gamemode, they will all die.

I also didn’t point to using the trinity, but at least providing a reason to be any other role than zerker DPS. There are support abilities in the game, there are support builds, there are tankier builds and condition builds, but most groups don’t want to see them or deal with them because it’s simply faster if everyone goes full zerk and stacks on every encounter…. which requires no teamwork besides the occasional rezzing and just pushing out damage: no communication needed, you can even go afk during the fight and still have the boss killed in a timely manner. Putting in a little bit more challenge and getting people to wok together in the dungeon environment would… make it more fun and less like farming events.

And when you go into group content, like a dungeon, shouldn’t a player want to be a team player? What’s the point in doing group content, with a team, if you would rather do solo content?

That IS NOT TEAM PLAY. Team playing is an attitude. When I played Rift, I was forced many times into a group and the other players were not team players. Also saying, I need DPS in X build, healers in Y build and Tanks in Z build or you can’t join is not TEAM PLAY – that is a group of individuals playing together. What is the difference with what GW2 and forcing? At least in GW2, you have a choice.

GW1 GvG and HoM was TEAM play. Dungeons under a Trinity game – sorry no.

Addressing the post above yours.

If you think about it this way. To you as a player in a trinity game, even if GW2 was just all about the DPS, how is it different?

If you’re a DPS, you’ll go full DPS. If you’re a healer you’ll go full heal. If you’re a tank, you’ll mostly think about survivability and aggro management, and might be a bit sneaky and add in a bit of DPS.

It really is the same thing. Its just very one-dimensional. Plus, just looking at the proportion of DPS to tanks/healers in MMOs, I really question if most people actually likes to think about healing or tanking anyways.

Sorry the Trinity is one dimensional as you have set roles – done. In GW2, depending on the mob, a Mesmer can tank, as can any other profession. It is the mix of skills and synergy in the build that is important.

That was my point. There is very little cross-aspect synergy on the trinity because there is very little cross-aspect anything.

Serenity.6149:

Dual.8953:

I think I’ll restate my point. What these players want is not necessarily trinity. They want to do things like like run support traits in Shadow Arts on a Thief and be considered an asset instead of a burden for it. They also likely despise the fact that the optimal way to play PvE in GW2 is to stack in a “safe” spot, as Dalanor’s videos demonstrate. They crave Active, Dynamic and Frantic combat and the game gives them the tools for it, unfortunately the enemies are too stupid to provide the challenge necessary.

^

This. Every fight boils down to stack on a point and dodge. The game has very high potential combat mechanics, but the fight design has been terrible. The sad thing is too many people still have trouble with the current fight design so I do not foresee the community reacting well to actual challenging content. Right now, even fights like Tequatl and Triple Wurm are not actually difficult; they’re just artificially difficult due to not being able to control who is (or isn’t) participating.

I think a lot of that is due to how exploitable the AI is. AC Spider for example. Before people found out about the AI exploit (idk why this isn’t fixed) it was a very challenging and fun fight.

In fact, the whole if AC is basically done by AI exploits these days.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I think a lot of that is due to how exploitable the AI is. AC Spider for example. Before people found out about the AI exploit (idk why this isn’t fixed) it was a very challenging and fun fight.

In fact, the whole if AC is basically done by AI exploits these days.

You mean the script which disables her aoe spray in melee range? How lame is that it punishes skillful ranging!
FYI it does the same 2 attacks in melee range without a corner. That way it’s just easier to spike down with Fiery Greatsword, but even on an openfield, up until the patch you can just port on her with the rush. Or kite it to the fountain thingy.

If it bothers you, range it in the open field and search for likeminded people.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Serenity.6149:

Dual.8953:

I think I’ll restate my point. What these players want is not necessarily trinity. They want to do things like like run support traits in Shadow Arts on a Thief and be considered an asset instead of a burden for it. They also likely despise the fact that the optimal way to play PvE in GW2 is to stack in a “safe” spot, as Dalanor’s videos demonstrate. They crave Active, Dynamic and Frantic combat and the game gives them the tools for it, unfortunately the enemies are too stupid to provide the challenge necessary.

^

This. Every fight boils down to stack on a point and dodge. The game has very high potential combat mechanics, but the fight design has been terrible. The sad thing is too many people still have trouble with the current fight design so I do not foresee the community reacting well to actual challenging content. Right now, even fights like Tequatl and Triple Wurm are not actually difficult; they’re just artificially difficult due to not being able to control who is (or isn’t) participating.

I think a lot of that is due to how exploitable the AI is. AC Spider for example. Before people found out about the AI exploit (idk why this isn’t fixed) it was a very challenging and fun fight.

In fact, the whole if AC is basically done by AI exploits these days.

Would you also say that attacking Lupicus at range in phase 1 is an exploit since he doesn’t kick?

You can’t exploit Kholer, you can’t exploit the graveling bosses at the end, you can’t exploit a single boss fight in AC.

hendo.1940:

You can’t exploit Kholer, you can’t exploit the graveling bosses at the end, you can’t exploit a single boss fight in AC.

Stacking. You know. It’s an exploit. -wink wink-

Dalanor.5387:

phys.7689:

the problem is that some skills, like pistol whip need to serve many functions

its DPS its also evasion, and its also a stun. So if im asking a theif not to use it, im decreasing his survivability and dps. So a theif is going to say, is your 1/2 second CC worth my dps/survival? and most cases the answer is probably no.

Are you alright mate? You lost your sense.
You even mention the evade in it … You don’t need to sacrficice anything. You won’t be hit, you deal a skrittload of damage and it strips defiant. Win-win-win.

other problem skills are
hilt bash (lose pet damage +50% on next hit)
Chaos storm (random effects)
spectral wall (protection for team)
overcharge shot(dps combined with stability)
counterattack (defensive and DPS skill)
explosive rockets (dps burst)
big old bomb (blast finisher and DPS)
steal when traited for duration decrease (less mug, less hp renewel less other benefits

Try to see the overall picture. Why would you use a GS on ranger? Defensive dps weapon. Thats right. Evade on auto attack, a mobility skill, a block that can be used for an extended time if you are further from the enemy to not attack back and the hilt bash which has it’s uses. Control AND damage. It’s not just one of them. Both. What’s your problem?

Chaos storm is random, that’s the skills problem, not their defensive nature. However as a mesmer you need defense from stealth and clones and Chaos storm does neither.

Spectral wall is a pvp skill, it has multiple uses. You pop it before 2 zerg classes to give protection to the frontliners or force stability on the enemy at choke points or outright fear them everywhere. And its an ethereal field yay!

Overcharge shot CC’s yourself so it’s have issues already.

Now we talk about PvE or not? Rocket turret is non-viable there nor others.

Big ol’ bomb is better for pre-stacking, due to it’s knockdown, but IF you need it, it can be used to remove Defiant mid fight if you stack might again, since the mob won’t move away from the effect.

Still, we talk about PvE, you won’t trait for steal, except with that 5 pt minor in Trickery.

not to mention any trait that benefits from stuns interupts dazes etc is like at best 20% less effective on bosses.

Essentially the system makes you sacrifice utility/damage/defense in exchange for small CC effects.

Its a bad solution imo. That isnt to say there is no teamwork or play involved with using it, its just not a good way of dealing with boss mechanics.

Do we have traits like that?
See above, you get more, than loss usually.
You can’t deal with it in pugs. Got it. Neither of us can, because of random spamming.

edit: Oh i remember, warriors got a Master trait for extra hammer damage on CC’d enemies, but if you dare to use a hammer for dps …

ahh you are missing my point here. The point is in order to properly deal with defiant in a team setting, it requires everyone to either not use their CC causing skills or use them ONLY when the team needs CC removed.

A common practice for example is to remove all stacks, then dont use CC at all until you want to stop an important skill/attack.

So lets say enemy has 5 stacks of defiant your team does 5 CCs which do nothing, then you wait, not using any CC skills. (so you can land the one that matters)
If you were a theif, this means, for the team you CANT use pistol whip until they CC his big skill.
so thief is giving up his best and safest DPS for this fight, so that people can CC the boss every once in awhile. Its not a good trade, and its why 95% of the time no one bothers with actually trying to CC the boss in order to control it.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I think a lot of that is due to how exploitable the AI is. AC Spider for example. Before people found out about the AI exploit (idk why this isn’t fixed) it was a very challenging and fun fight.

In fact, the whole if AC is basically done by AI exploits these days.

Bosses should simply use ranged attacks in melee and melee attacks at range. That should fix a lot of exploits.

hendo.1940:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Serenity.6149:

Dual.8953:

I think I’ll restate my point. What these players want is not necessarily trinity. They want to do things like like run support traits in Shadow Arts on a Thief and be considered an asset instead of a burden for it. They also likely despise the fact that the optimal way to play PvE in GW2 is to stack in a “safe” spot, as Dalanor’s videos demonstrate. They crave Active, Dynamic and Frantic combat and the game gives them the tools for it, unfortunately the enemies are too stupid to provide the challenge necessary.

^

This. Every fight boils down to stack on a point and dodge. The game has very high potential combat mechanics, but the fight design has been terrible. The sad thing is too many people still have trouble with the current fight design so I do not foresee the community reacting well to actual challenging content. Right now, even fights like Tequatl and Triple Wurm are not actually difficult; they’re just artificially difficult due to not being able to control who is (or isn’t) participating.

I think a lot of that is due to how exploitable the AI is. AC Spider for example. Before people found out about the AI exploit (idk why this isn’t fixed) it was a very challenging and fun fight.

In fact, the whole if AC is basically done by AI exploits these days.

Would you also say that attacking Lupicus at range in phase 1 is an exploit since he doesn’t kick?

You can’t exploit Kholer, you can’t exploit the graveling bosses at the end, you can’t exploit a single boss fight in AC.

most of the bosses get trivialized, lets be honest here. To get the level of control people get against bosses by stacking, you should have had to actually do something to the boss. It would be fine if via timed use of CC, you could keep a boss in an disadvantageous position, but its kind of lame for bosses to sit there forever till they die.

Now, even though we debate some issues, i dont think we disagree that GW2 battle system provides a decent amount of depth. Most of the fight encounters are currently trivialized though by cheesy tactics.

needs better NPC script algorythyms and better level/encounter design.

Cheesy tactics = kiting? Cause at range bosses don’t use most of their abilities.

In pve, non- trinity would only work if all classes get the same amount of tools to deal with the enemy.

Anet knows this and hence we have 2 dodges for every single one.

HOWEVER, they also gave certain class vigor, block, reflect, aegis while some classes have none.

That’s fine because the other classes are better in other role. Like debuffing, ccing.

But when more than 1 person is controlling one monster, it would be too OP. So let’s give bosses unshakable & defiant.

Since control now becomes crap, Anet has to address it. How? Certainly not fixing the boss itself but let’s take some IQ of the AI and make them just face tank player’s attack.

But then it would be too easy for players, wouldn’kitten Mobs just stand there and eat AOE. Lets make their attack so high that full tanky armor can’t take more than 2 hits. Also buff their hp to lengthen the fight.

There you have it. The non-trinity system.

haviz.1340:

Cheesy tactics = kiting? Cause at range bosses don’t use most of their abilities.

cheesy tactics equal cheesy tactics, i think we can stop pretending we dont know when a fight has become cheesy.
If they design an encounter where kiting is the cheesy tactic than thats a just as much a mistake as if they design an encounter where standing in a corner wins you the fight.

The key is no matter what tactic is used, it should be engaging and require skill to pull off. The NPC should be trying to beat you, not dying to a simple tactic without even trying to change it up.

Turmon.3026:

I remember seeing the 55 Healer build in Guild Wars 1 PvP. An entire team of really good damage dealers couldn’t even make a dent in one 55 healer. Is that the balance you were referring to?

HA! I remember the 55 healer build. You know how you killed them? Mesmers stripping all day long.

Great build for tanking/farming melee mobs all day long though. Missing some GW1 now. lol

If you were a theif, this means, for the team you CANT use pistol whip until they CC his big skill.
so thief is giving up his best and safest DPS for this fight, so that people can CC the boss every once in awhile. Its not a good trade, and its why 95% of the time no one bothers with actually trying to CC the boss in order to control it.

Pistol whip is basically equal dps to sword auto on thief. You could just go d/p and spam headshots to get the stacks off anyway, you don’t need sword. The reason people don’t bother CC’ing the bosses is because they don’t care about it, spamming their CC skills without a care in the world.

most of the bosses get trivialized, lets be honest here. To get the level of control people get against bosses by stacking, you should have had to actually do something to the boss. It would be fine if via timed use of CC, you could keep a boss in an disadvantageous position, but its kind of lame for bosses to sit there forever till they die.

No, they actually don’t. You need to stop watching our speed clears and thinking that’s the standard of pugs. You need to stop doing COF p1 and thinking that is the standard of GW2 content. Most bosses in this game do not get trivialised unless it’s bad players using actual safe spots to AFK range. Examples being Mossman, Magecrusher, Bloomhunger. Stack on top of Nokk, stack on Hunter/Crusher, stack on Kohler, stack on Alphard. The act of stacking itself isn’t trivialising these fights, it doesn’t suddenly make you invulnerable.

Now, even though we debate some issues, i dont think we disagree that GW2 battle system provides a decent amount of depth. Most of the fight encounters are currently trivialized though by cheesy tactics.

Not really.

needs better NPC script algorythyms and better level/encounter design.

I want everybody here who talk about how basic, simplistic and easy the combat in this game is to go to Arah and solo it. Or do it in a PUG group. One of the two. Of course combat is going to feel cheap, easy and afk when doing easy content, actually do content that is remotely challenging, then come back and talk about how you “cheese” bosses, and “stack and press 1 to win”.

I’m literally fed up of it.

Or how about FOTM 49/50? No safe spots, just clear it all legit like us speed clear guilds do. You can’t trivialise fractal fights especially since they’re so trash mob centric and the mobs hit harder and harder in higher levels. Though sure, I’m sure you can spend a year in a safe spot and afk range Mossman/Bloomhunger, but the time it takes you to do that, we’ll be half way through third fractal.

But then it would be too easy for players, wouldn’kitten Mobs just stand there and eat AOE. Lets make their attack so high that full tanky armor can’t take more than 2 hits. Also buff their hp to lengthen the fight.

You lose.

The key is no matter what tactic is used, it should be engaging and require skill to pull off. The NPC should be trying to beat you, not dying to a simple tactic without even trying to change it up.

And then whenever the NPC is trying to beat you, people complain that it’s too hard or nobody does it.

Pugs have only started killing Kohler, pugs can’t do Alphard, pugs can’t do Lupicus. They can’t do Arah skips.

Afya.5842:

In pve, non- trinity would only work if all classes get the same amount of tools to deal with the enemy.

Anet knows this and hence we have 2 dodges for every single one.

HOWEVER, they also gave certain class vigor, block, reflect, aegis while some classes have none.

That’s fine because the other classes are better in other role. Like debuffing, ccing.

But when more than 1 person is controlling one monster, it would be too OP. So let’s give bosses unshakable & defiant.

Since control now becomes crap, Anet has to address it. How? Certainly not fixing the boss itself but let’s take some IQ of the AI and make them just face tank player’s attack.

But then it would be too easy for players, wouldn’kitten Mobs just stand there and eat AOE. Lets make their attack so high that full tanky armor can’t take more than 2 hits. Also buff their hp to lengthen the fight.

There you have it. The non-trinity system.

what you describe is not the non trinity system.
first of all your premise is incorrect.
A) “In pve, non- trinity would only work if all classes get the same amount of tools to deal with the enemy.”
the non trinity exists in many games, and you dont need to give people the same tools, simply not true.
B) more than one person controlling the mob is not necessarilly OP. Its OP with the current CC design/resistance/encounter design

Im not saying the problems you descrive dont exist, im saying that it lack of trinity has nothing to do with those problems.
They still have to consider everyone CCing the boss in trinity games, because if i could lockdown the boss with 5 CC players, i wouldnt need a healer or dps

No trinity isn’t boring, it’s the best thing this game did, design wise. Trinity is what is boring.

The mere fact people are still around with this little additional difficult content proves this.

In a trinity statgrind game, people would have gotten utterly bored at this point…and left. It keeps the fights still SOMEWHAT fresh compared to a trinity game.

I sure had to work harder at dungeon fights in this game than in endgame WoW. Trinity isn’t something that makes fight complicated, it’s something that dumbs them down.

(That said, skipping mobs is something that should be fixed. Simple way, have all pre-boss mobs aggro once you aggro the boss)

first of all pistol whip USED to be equal to dps on theif, because they were considering how much you can do pistol whip with how long you have to wait for initiative. This is no longer the case. Second of all pistol whip is superior to AA dps on boss fights BECAUSE it gives invulnerability frames. you time it and you can do damage instead of dodging which is more effecient. The point is the thief doesnt want to use pistol whip for CC, he wants to use it for damage/evasion however he cant IF the party is actually trying to CC a specific attack.

you are having a large disconnect here because you are looking at things from only your perspective.

How hard it is to solo Arah is not an indicator of ANYTHING for how the game works for a team. This thread, is mostly about how the game works/can work as a team. Some people are oversimplifying by saying stack and win, but the reality is pugs who know nothing often stack to win, and when it doesnt win, they blame the other players/group comp and join another team, until they successfully stack to win

Pugs stack all the time, i have pugged many times, and the rule of thumb is stack. They stack to beat every boss even when imo its not necessary/effecient. So for MOST of the game, stacking is braindead. Its not just highend speedclears

And you are right they dont stack on kholer, they walk right by him.

Even if Arah and level 49-50 fractals are difficult, that highlights that most of the encounters in the game are not difficult.

Now, you get kittened at me, but i am not disagreeing with you on your overall beliefs, that GW2 has complexity, in some cases. I dont think trinity is the answer. But i dont think the encounter/npc/level design is good where it is at throught the game.

heres where i think we agree
GW2 most the fights are easy, not because the system sucks but because most players run from hard content, and content that they cant cheese.

Teamwork is useful and deep in GW2, but you dont see it in the average PVE meta.

where we disagree is:

I think they need to raise the level of NPC behaviours or level/encounter design to create more interesting fights, like you might see in arah or fractals, and even beyond those two in mechanics, and npc behaviour.

I think the current CC system is flawed and is lowering their options to make fights interesting(for teams), and have people using CC more effectively in high end content .

OP – you do not understand the term “communism”. Please refrain from using said term in future discussions.

I like how stacking and DPSing is cheesy, kiting is cheesy, but one character standing still tanking a monster while everyone else DPSs and healer spam heals tank isn’t cheesy, it’s amazing trinity-rich gameplay…

It’s all cheesy guys. All of it.

Zefiris.8297:

No trinity isn’t boring, it’s the best thing this game did, design wise. Trinity is what is boring.

The mere fact people are still around with this little additional difficult content proves this.

In a trinity statgrind game, people would have gotten utterly bored at this point…and left. It keeps the fights still SOMEWHAT fresh compared to a trinity game.

I sure had to work harder at dungeon fights in this game than in endgame WoW. Trinity isn’t something that makes fight complicated, it’s something that dumbs them down.

(That said, skipping mobs is something that should be fixed. Simple way, have all pre-boss mobs aggro once you aggro the boss)

i think skipping should be allowed, but should be discouraged more by reward, They need to create some bonuses for vanquishing dunegeons, or add some good random drops. They can also give rewards for minimal kills (aka only killing whats absolutely neccessary)

Draknar.5748:

I like how stacking and DPSing is cheesy, kiting is cheesy, but one character standing still tanking a monster while everyone else DPSs and healer spam heals tank isn’t cheesy, it’s amazing trinity-rich gameplay…

It’s all cheesy guys. All of it.

i agree that trinity is cheesy. I find it amusing that people who love trinity are talking about stacking, when trinity games basically are often about everyone standing in a specific spot for most the fight, and only moving for obvious are you at the keyboard tells, for many encounters.

to make it clear, i dont think stacking is cheesy as a short term tactic, i think that stacking in a corner for the entire fight and only considering optimal DPS is cheesy
I think you should be encouraged to stack at times in some fights.

I think kiting is cheesy when its actually cheesy, not when you have to actively and carefully manage the boss and deal with him trying to screw over your kiting.

I am not making any sweeping statements, like there should never be kiting, and never be stacking. Im saying that the whole fight shouldnt be made comparitively easy, by using comparitively easy tactics.

If this was a fighting game, i would say you shouldnt be able to beat the whole game by doing foot sweeps, or throwing projectiles, not that foot sweeps and projectiles should not exist or work.

Just to let ya know, people do stack Kholer

Stack all the thing!!

http://imgur.com/gallery/QlS3V

phys.7689:

Draknar.5748:

I like how stacking and DPSing is cheesy, kiting is cheesy, but one character standing still tanking a monster while everyone else DPSs and healer spam heals tank isn’t cheesy, it’s amazing trinity-rich gameplay…

It’s all cheesy guys. All of it.

i agree that trinity is cheesy. I find it amusing that people who love trinity are talking about stacking, when trinity games basically are often about everyone standing in a specific spot for most the fight, and only moving for obvious are you at the keyboard tells, for many encounters.

to make it clear, i dont think stacking is cheesy as a short term tactic, i think that stacking in a corner for the entire fight and only considering optimal DPS is cheesy
I think you should be encouraged to stack at times in some fights.

I think kiting is cheesy when its actually cheesy, not when you have to actively and carefully manage the boss and deal with him trying to screw over your kiting.

I am not making any sweeping statements, like there should never be kiting, and never be stacking. Im saying that the whole fight shouldnt be made comparitively easy, by using comparitively easy tactics.

If this was a fighting game, i would say you shouldnt be able to be the whole game by doing foot sweeps, or throwing projectiles, not that foot sweeps and projectiles should not exist or work.

Trinity or not, there’s always stacking. It’s the most efficient way for people to be healed. There’s A LOT of fights in GW2 that can be very dynamic and interesting. People, however, always take the easiest paths. This is why you see the same tactics in all MMOs across the board. At least GW2 has the dodge mechanic to spruce things up dramatically.
You’ll always have that kitten who does nothing but foot sweeps. In fact, the majority of people are that kitten.

phys.7689:

cheesy tactics equal cheesy tactics, i think we can stop pretending we dont know when a fight has become cheesy.
If they design an encounter where kiting is the cheesy tactic than thats a just as much a mistake as if they design an encounter where standing in a corner wins you the fight.

The key is no matter what tactic is used, it should be engaging and require skill to pull off. The NPC should be trying to beat you, not dying to a simple tactic without even trying to change it up.

Almost every encounter can be kited thus cheese’d.

haviz.1340:

phys.7689:

cheesy tactics equal cheesy tactics, i think we can stop pretending we dont know when a fight has become cheesy.
If they design an encounter where kiting is the cheesy tactic than thats a just as much a mistake as if they design an encounter where standing in a corner wins you the fight.

The key is no matter what tactic is used, it should be engaging and require skill to pull off. The NPC should be trying to beat you, not dying to a simple tactic without even trying to change it up.

Almost every encounter can be kited thus cheese’d.

i did not say kiting=cheese
I said kiting can be cheesy if the mechanics make it so.

Jski.6180:

No.
Your more or less asking for ppl to play the way you want and not let them have the freedom to chose how they play.

That’s already happening though, just in the form of “zerker or gtfo”.

Bazinga.2564:

Jski.6180:

No.
Your more or less asking for ppl to play the way you want and not let them have the freedom to chose how they play.

That’s already happening though, just in the form of “zerker or gtfo”.

It’s not the same thing.

Meta build requirements are imposed by players. In GW2, people can play how they want to, they just cannot do so in meta groups — and have to find/make a “laissez-faire” group.

Classic trinity game-play requirements (for tank and healer) are imposed by developers. Trinity games build encounters so that the encounter cannot be completed without those roles. Trinity games also have meta requirements, though these are more for the DPS — unless there are bad tank and healer build options, in which case the tank or healer also has to have the “right” build. Regardless, you can’t just take 5 of any profession and do a dungeon in a trinity game — not with everyone running the build they prefer.

Bryzy.2719:

TL;DR:

This is NOT a thread requesting the return of the trinity. It well never happen. Read the post before you decide to comment something along those lines. This is a thread to discuss how lack of trinity is affecting GW2.

- Bad balancing + communist style gameplay = boring = loss of players
- If trinity was in place, player skill is still a key factor in winning pvp/wvw

This is a speculative thread and is open to all opinions, not one in which I’m am forcing forward my own – though I do state it.

Note: for newer players, ‘holy trinity’ refers to the profession-specific roles of tank, DPS and healer.

I’ve noticed more players recently giving up this game/logging far fewer hours to pursue real life or other gaming ventures. I’ve no idea if this is a legitimate trend (it most likely isn’t in the scheme of things) as I don’t have access to Anet’s playerbase statistics.

From what I’ve witnessed amongst players, GW2 appears to be a kind of ‘fleeting fancy’ when it comes to gameplay. That is, people will get the game, play for a couple of months, then get bored.

It’s my opinion that the poor profession-balancing skills of the devs [read: Rangers are due for another shafting], combined with the rather communist-esque design of the gameplay [read: no holy-trinity] are completely detrimental to the ‘addictiveness’ of the game. Simply put, comparatively, GW2 just isn’t that addictive meaning it isn’t as fun as other games.

I realise that some are advocates of the “skill factor” (i.e. removing the holy trinity means player skill plays a larger role in pvp/wvw), however I don’t believe this is necessarily the case. If we had the classic DPS/Tank/Healer roles, players’ individual skill would still determine the outcome of a fight. A really good tank would wear down DPS players, a really good DPS player might out-damage a healer’s healing power etc etc.

I have no expectation that Anet will ever incorporate the trinity into the game. The removal of it is, afterall, one of the game’s foundational ideals. It’s just my view that this makes for a weaker game in the long run.

Thoughts?

So, what I am taking from the little bit of info that came out thus far about the new skills, it looks like they’re moving toward a “Trinity-lite” model. We’ll see how it turns out shortly.

What is the video when a dude explains stuff and balancing for noobs? Not the vid from extra creditz.
The characters in the video are stick figures and the guy actually just rants in a very funny way.

Jski.6180:

No.
Your more or less asking for ppl to play the way you want and not let them have the freedom to chose how they play.

The philosophy behind play the way you want is really poor tbh because it is a game design that is secretly behind a lot of problems in gw2. Boss encounters cannot be too difficult because then it may force certain players in a group to spec differently to beat them.

Anet can’t make really cool looking skins feel rewarding because they want people to obtain them through playing the game the way they want aka pve/wvw/spvp. How do you do that? Well you make these skins obtainable through a universal currency that underlies each of the gameplay styles(pve/wvw/spvp) and that is gold or crafting materials.

If you combined those two points, you’ll realize that Anet can’t make the average pve content even remotely difficulty because there is no trinity or incentive for players to change their style, and then even if there was, Anet can’t make the rewards super good cuz if they were like a series of unique skins, then spvp/wvw people would complain cuz then they can’t get that skin without playing the game in a way thats out of their playstyle. So you have to make skins obtainable through gold or crafting materials which leads to grind, which then leads to people finding the best possible way to get gold/materials which is through grinding which currently sits at speed running dungeons that are already easy enough, or champ farming for 8 hours.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Jski.6180:

No.
Your more or less asking for ppl to play the way you want and not let them have the freedom to chose how they play.

The philosophy behind play the way you want is really poor tbh because it is a game design that is secretly behind a lot of problems in gw2. Boss encounters cannot be too difficult because then it may force certain players in a group to spec differently to beat them.

Anet can’t make really cool looking skins feel rewarding because they want people to obtain them through playing the game the way they want aka pve/wvw/spvp. How do you do that? Well you make these skins obtainable through a universal currency that underlies each of the gameplay styles(pve/wvw/spvp) and that is gold or crafting materials.

If you combined those two points, you’ll realize that Anet can’t make the average pve content even remotely difficulty because there is no trinity or incentive for players to change their style, and then even if there was, Anet can’t make the rewards super good cuz if they were like a series of unique skins, then spvp/wvw people would complain cuz then they can’t get that skin without playing the game in a way thats out of their playstyle. So you have to make skins obtainable through gold or crafting materials which leads to grind, which then leads to people finding the best possible way to get gold/materials which is through grinding which currently sits at speed running dungeons that are already easy enough, or champ farming for 8 hours.

you are connecting two issues that are not related, boss encounters not being hard has nothing to do with the trinity. You can make hard boss encounters no matter what systems you use.

There are some issues because they have decided to try and have most rewards attainable by any means, and by any plastyle, but that has little to do with trinity.

OP, you made one big mistake. Most people still playing this game and checking these forums more than once every other month or so are “white knights” of ANet and GW2. It isn’t a bad thing, but they are here still because they obviously still like this form of play. I will say though, some people obviously did not read the entire post.

To me, the Trinity was more boring than this. Especially having to find all three parts to do anything.

If I ever quit this game it will be due to the lack of dedicated roles. It’s 100% obvious they never intend to make full blown healers and straight tanks and high DPS useless-in-other-field changes. Would I like if they did? Very much. Do I expect it? Clearly not. It’s unfortunate but that’s just how it is.