Guild Wars 2

First off I know this is a dead horse that I want to beat. 2nd, I don’t care.

I read many posts and it seems the community is split on the holy trinity idea. I like GW2, thus why I play it. It is much better than WoW, more relaxing than FFXIV (not that I disliked it but my girlfriend didn’t ), and generally better performing than any F2P crap-shoot out there. My biggest issue is I do like playing a piece of the trinity. My favorite thing to do in MMORPGs is heal. A lot of the complaints people voice is because of the “no trinity” weather they talking about dungeon running, PvP, gear stats not used. The issue really comes down to the fact that the trinity exists is most other games for a reason. The meta in GW2 is straight up boring. If ever they want to make other gear stats important then they need to make roles more important so NEVER count on this unless ANet decides to back up on the “no roles” concept.

In order to make toughness matter more they would need to make its efficiency go up. Same with healing. If they did this though they would make the trinity happen because suddenly all zerker might not be the fastest way to run a dungeon.

Example: If a mob (dungeon or world) hits for 3000 with a skill pre toughness modifier. Let’s just say (I don’t feel like doing the math right now) that currently running full zerker you only mitigate 1500 of it. Let’s say running full soldiers you mitigate 2200. If they increased the efficiency so toughness matters more then now full zerker mitigates 1500 and full soldier might mitigate 2800.

Pretty much same concept with healing.

However now soldier becomes the new meta (maybe because dodging and mitigation effects are OP) and dungeon running becomes easier so now they have to adjust the dungeon mobs.

Next thing you know the trinity is born. I personally don’t feel this is a bad thing but many do because they are jaded because they ALWAYS play DPS and could never find groups.

Ok so this sounds like a problem. What I want is for both ways of play to be viable. They should make dungeons have a solo version (Instanced) and a group version. Solo version for those who don’t want/need trinity and a group version for those who do. Make most the drops the same but since the group dungeon is harder maybe give a chance for ascended stuff like fractals for completion where solo might only get exotic. Yeah seems unfair but hey you can solo right?

I feel this would be a great compromise to please everyone if more content was made with both types in mind and then everyone could get along.

TLDR – Should have game play for both solo and trinity (but they wont)

New: Ok how about it put it this way. Get rid of gear and give everybody the same stats because then they have the game the way they want it. People who don’t play zerker get ridiculed anyways. So why bother having other gear if it isn’t meant to be utilized somewhere.

They just need to make content that allows for something other than DPS to shine.

You can’t make healing viable without making it necessary. If it isn’t necessary, players will learn to beat stuff faster without it.

It doesn’t matter if there is not an archetype or dedicated healer class. Even if you increase the way healing power scales to the point where you have a functional 1% to 100% healer build, the reality is that there is nothing in PvE that cannot be cleared without anyone needing to play the role of a healer. So all you are doing is breaking the hell out of Shoutbow Warrior in PvP in order to create an archetype in PvE that is totally surplus to requirement.

Or, or… wait hear me out. They could focus on things that actually need addressing in the game instead of starting from scratch and having to rebalance the entire pve, pvp and wvw aspect of the game.

Even your simple example has so many loops and holes it’s funny.

So Soldiers (aka more toughness) mitigates x amount of damage from that one foe. What about 2 of those foes? What about 3? What about 4? When does one get instant killed? What about damage mitigation (the way it’s ment and needs to get played atm)?

Let’s talk healing. How much scaling do we add? 50%? 100%? How will this affect pvp/wvw? What about healing skill and evasion skills synergy? Some classes hafve insane amounts of damage ignore (cough mesmer/guardian cough) that you could easily move from full healing into → absolute immunity into → healing again → into absolute immunity. Let’s add some groupp cc in there too.

The game is not designed around trinity. IT DOES NOT WORK.

See one of the 5 million other threads about details since this dead horse has been explained multiple times.

@OP Zerker meta to soldier meta=trinity?

even if toughness would get massively buffed, zerker would still be the fastest way of clearing anything.
And will be that way probably until Ferocity as a primary attribute gets introduced.

For a trinity to happen you need :
1. A way to manage aggro
2. Mobs that need to be tanked by really tough players
3.Denying everyone except dedicated healers from sustaining other players and themselves

since none of that is going to happen except maybe aggro management with the introduction of taunts(doubtful) the trinity cant exist.

the game would need to be remade from scratch for that to be even viable.

let’s make it so 3k toughness makes you indestructible

lets make it so 1k healing power makes you able to burst heal people to 100% by just looking at them

people still won’t use it for dungeons

now lets stop beating the dead horse

If you want to force players into a traditional trinity you’re gonna have to introduce mobs that can dish out unblockable and undodgeable hits. When specific heavy-hitting attacks can no longer be avoided through active defenses (blocking, dodging, reflecting, blinding) only then will you maybe see GW2 going into a trinity direction.

If we stop getting target dummy’s boss´s who know maybe support will be viable.

Darkwolfer.7819:

TLDR – Should have game play for both solo and trinity (but they wont)

It’s not that they won’t, they just cant. I was a first year EQ1 vet, I really liked the core/hardcore aspect of the trinity design. I like mmo’s with serious challenge, though I still play other stuff a bit. But here…. it’s more modeled around the first person shooter (FPS) style of gaming. You see in EQ1 as my example, pvp was never really popular, not with a more traditional trinity system, it’s really tough. Yeah, there were some, but really it’s just not the right formula for small fast gang pvp.

An FPS is though, and this is more the mechanic so to fulfill anets dream of E-sports (spvp) out of an mmo and for the youth. The day they give up on e-sports and go more traditional, well will be a day either hell freezes over or we see a capital class spaceship show up in the sky and orbital bombard us all out of existence ~_~

@Op – the community is not split.

There are a few people who fail to realize that if they want a trinity system they should be looking at playing a game that offers it instead of trying to turn this one into their trinity dream game.

The fact that the trinity exists in other games is completely devoid of value since GW2 is a niche game that has marketed itself as a no-trinity game to people who want a no-trinity game.
Sure – the odd trinity player ends up here as well but honestly I doubt the few trinity-loving players here are a good enough reason for Anet to rework the ENTIRE game for.

The whole “no roles” thing leads me to believe you haven’t really played GW2 right. GW2 has roles – just not the conventional ones you’re used to.
Also I get that you feel like playing your special role that you care about but perhaps you’d care about the rest of us who’ve found a unique game here that offers something different then every other trinity game out there.

You mentioned a few trinity games you dislike so you came to GW2. You have alternatives you just choose not to play them and instead insist this game which we love for its unique design be changed to copy those other games so it is more to your liking – If I want to play a no-trinity MMO this day and age where should I go?

Daywolf.2630:

Darkwolfer.7819:

TLDR – Should have game play for both solo and trinity (but they wont)

It’s not that they won’t, they just cant. I was a first year EQ1 vet, I really liked the core/hardcore aspect of the trinity design. I like mmo’s with serious challenge, though I still play other stuff a bit. But here…. it’s more modeled around the first person shooter (FPS) style of gaming. You see in EQ1 as my example, pvp was never really popular, not with a more traditional trinity system, it’s really tough. Yeah, there were some, but really it’s just not the right formula for small fast gang pvp.

An FPS is though, and this is more the mechanic so to fulfill anets dream of E-sports (spvp) out of an mmo and for the youth. The day they give up on e-sports and go more traditional, well will be a day either hell freezes over or we see a capital class spaceship show up in the sky and orbital bombard us all out of existence ~_~

While I disagree in that EQ had one of the best PVP setups originally IMO. Rallos Zek ftw. Consequences for death/rewards for winning. Friendly Fire. Ahh just some fun memories.

I do agree with your point.

My last game was DCUO, while I loved the arena’s there which were using your characters and it’s Quadrinity(trinity with a 4th role) the role that became mostly followed by the e-sports crowd was it’s Legends PVP which basically put you in DPS only characters to fight it out. It was much more popular as far as the esports side went, there’s something people dont’ like about too strong of a group engine. It can seem boring when you play defensively perfect and no one dies even if the players are actually playing amazingly and pulling things off not many could to accomplish it. It gets lost on those who don’t realy know what’s going on.

I don’t see why roles have to be trinity. Make it so you have to bring different things without needing a dedicated tank. We already have this to some degree with condi and support builds they just need to be made more viable. Atm it’s just a side thing people throw in as a bonus. And more dungeon mechanics would be nice. Something other than ‘dodge now’ or ‘use the big cannon.’

Trinity is not needed.

What we do need is a soft-trinity, which is currently lacking. However, it looks like with the changes to the classes, traits, conditions and overall encounter mechanics in HoT, we may be getting a viable soft-trinity that people can utilize.

The concern I see the most is that many gearsets are unused. I find this completely false. They are unused by experts. They are still extremely widely used by newbies and average players who do not have time to learn every encounter. Just because I want to run some dungeon for gold does not mean I want to run it a few dozen times just to learn every single attack of a single boss that I have to dodge.

Furthermore, in HoT, with the changes to how conditions work, conditions will be more viable than they are now, because they are actually capable of a higher DPS than full beserker gear despite the ramp-up time, because DPS is not lost when dodging. Yes, condition builds synergize BETTER with dodging than zerker.

And maps like Silverwastes have already made conditions and healing essential. you try doing Vinewrath without an HPS elementalist in your group and see how well it pans out. It turns into the entire thing into painful escort missions where your carrier can be destroyed at any given time when out of stealth.

The game is going in a good direction already. It just needs time. My biggest hope is that they one day go back and revise old content to be harder, as in the amount of variation you require in your group not just with huge HP pools. Twisted Marionette, Great Jungle Wurm, and Vinwrath have shown this is possible. Heck, even the Tower of Nightmares was more favorable to balanced builds than zerkers.

ArenaNet seems to’ve finally got the freakin’ point.

Photonman.6241:

I don’t see why roles have to be trinity. Make it so you have to bring different things without needing a dedicated tank. We already have this to some degree with condi and support builds they just need to be made more viable. Atm it’s just a side thing people throw in as a bonus. And more dungeon mechanics would be nice. Something other than ‘dodge now’ or ‘use the big cannon.’

“More viable”? Support is literally run in every serious dungeon run ever, and control is a major part of every build. Phalanx Strength Warrior is support, and is the 100% defacto for every dungeon team that wants to do a serious dungeon clear. Control is in every single meta build to some degree. It just doesn’t have a defined person specifically doing it.

The Trinity, outside of control, is definitely represented in spades. The fact that you don’t have to have them, though, is something that ANet wanted from the get go. They wanted there to be no reason to have to just wait on a specific role/class to show up to do something, and there really isn’t.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

“More viable”? Support is literally run in every serious dungeon run ever, and control is a major part of every build. Phalanx Strength Warrior is support, and is the 100% defacto for every dungeon team that wants to do a serious dungeon clear. Control is in every single meta build to some degree. It just doesn’t have a defined person specifically doing it.

The Trinity, outside of control, is definitely represented in spades. The fact that you don’t have to have them, though, is something that ANet wanted from the get go. They wanted there to be no reason to have to just wait on a specific role/class to show up to do something, and there really isn’t.

I don’t see how bringing two skills makes you a support character. He’s still in full zerker and he’s still trying to pump out pure damage. Calling that support is a joke. The closest thing we have to support I’d say is mesmer and guard running reflect, and even then it’s just bringing one or two skills. By support I mean bringing a full build and buffing, blocking, and some minor healing for the team. Personal damage would not be a factor at all. This isn’t possible atm which is why it needs to be made ‘more viable.’

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Phalanx Strength Warrior is support, and is the 100% defacto for every dungeon team that wants to do a serious dungeon clear.

…

Garth Thurgen.1380:

They wanted there to be no reason to have to just wait on a specific role/class to show up to do something, and there really isn’t.

?

Photonman.6241:

Garth Thurgen.1380:

“More viable”? Support is literally run in every serious dungeon run ever, and control is a major part of every build. Phalanx Strength Warrior is support, and is the 100% defacto for every dungeon team that wants to do a serious dungeon clear. Control is in every single meta build to some degree. It just doesn’t have a defined person specifically doing it.

The Trinity, outside of control, is definitely represented in spades. The fact that you don’t have to have them, though, is something that ANet wanted from the get go. They wanted there to be no reason to have to just wait on a specific role/class to show up to do something, and there really isn’t.

I don’t see how bringing two skills makes you a support character. He’s still in full zerker and he’s still trying to pump out pure damage. Calling that support is a joke. The closest thing we have to support I’d say is mesmer and guard running reflect, and even then it’s just bringing one or two skills. By support I mean bringing a full build and buffing, blocking, and some minor healing for the team. Personal damage would not be a factor at all. This isn’t possible atm which is why it needs to be made ‘more viable.’

A good defense is a good offense. Killing the enemy is a good way to prevent it from hitting you. Might, fury stacking, aegis, stealth, reflects, blocks, etc. Looks like multiple skills to me.

Photonman.6241:

Garth Thurgen.1380:

“More viable”? Support is literally run in every serious dungeon run ever, and control is a major part of every build. Phalanx Strength Warrior is support, and is the 100% defacto for every dungeon team that wants to do a serious dungeon clear. Control is in every single meta build to some degree. It just doesn’t have a defined person specifically doing it.

The Trinity, outside of control, is definitely represented in spades. The fact that you don’t have to have them, though, is something that ANet wanted from the get go. They wanted there to be no reason to have to just wait on a specific role/class to show up to do something, and there really isn’t.

I don’t see how bringing two skills makes you a support character. He’s still in full zerker and he’s still trying to pump out pure damage. Calling that support is a joke. The closest thing we have to support I’d say is mesmer and guard running reflect, and even then it’s just bringing one or two skills. By support I mean bringing a full build and buffing, blocking, and some minor healing for the team. Personal damage would not be a factor at all. This isn’t possible atm which is why it needs to be made ‘more viable.’

His entire role is to give everyone Might + throw down banners. If he was there for just dps, why exactly would you even bring a Warrior? Just bring a thief or elementalist and call it a day. Doing damage at all doesn’t suddenly mean that he’s dps.

Though, I guess the standard Guardian build does everything you want. It brings blocks, buffs, and minor heals. And unlike Warrior, that only brings an entire trait line + three skills, Guardian brings six support skills + all of their trait lines.

Of course, damage is still a factor, but that has nothing to do with support vs. not support. Unless you’re saying that things can literally only be one thing at a time, and that’s the only thing possible. If that’s the case, then your idea sounds boring, and irrelevant for this game.

Photonman.6241:

Garth Thurgen.1380:

“More viable”? Support is literally run in every serious dungeon run ever, and control is a major part of every build. Phalanx Strength Warrior is support, and is the 100% defacto for every dungeon team that wants to do a serious dungeon clear. Control is in every single meta build to some degree. It just doesn’t have a defined person specifically doing it.

The Trinity, outside of control, is definitely represented in spades. The fact that you don’t have to have them, though, is something that ANet wanted from the get go. They wanted there to be no reason to have to just wait on a specific role/class to show up to do something, and there really isn’t.

I don’t see how bringing two skills makes you a support character. He’s still in full zerker and he’s still trying to pump out pure damage. Calling that support is a joke. The closest thing we have to support I’d say is mesmer and guard running reflect, and even then it’s just bringing one or two skills. By support I mean bringing a full build and buffing, blocking, and some minor healing for the team. Personal damage would not be a factor at all. This isn’t possible atm which is why it needs to be made ‘more viable.’

And that’s why you’re having trouble understanding GW2’s game play. You gear doesn’t make your build or your role, your weapon/utility/traits do.

Guardian will bring Wall of Reflection, Shield of the Avenger and Retreat for instance in a fractal, with either Mace/focus or Hammer, traited with VOJ = blind and refreshes on kill for blind spam, Superior aria to hit retreat more often, and Master of Consecrations to make that wall longer and come up faster.

With this I can get heals from mace or protection from hammer. I can get blind spam which saves my entire team from hits. I can get retreat more often for Aegis which again entire team avoid a hit. master of Concecrations + WoR + SotA means I can have 44s of projectile defense, this means some fights we’re 100% safe.

But, I do this all in zerk gear. If you don’t call this support, well, you’re wrong. My gear does not determine support. The only “supportish” stat is healing power which has been intentionally crippled to avoid the trinity.

I hope this post helps understand, but every profession brings something to the group and what makes top grup compositions are the ones that bring all that’s needed and then focus on DPS.

Jerus.4350:

While I disagree in that EQ had one of the best PVP setups originally IMO. Rallos Zek ftw. Consequences for death/rewards for winning. Friendly Fire. Ahh just some fun memories.

Well like I said, some did it, and quite fondly actually. But it was never really a priority out of development, not like it is here anyway. So there were some that did it, a few active servers, but still a limited amount of participants compared to the players regular pve environments/servers that the game really revolved around. I did pvp a lot at the time, but over in UO, which was a big factor for the game… though later got steamrolled for the most part, like most other games (excluding one or two).

But those mechanics can create strong communities, because where you have adversity on a day to day basis, you have communities forming and by the effort of many overcoming hostile environments, or even poor class/character mechanics. EQ, UO, SWG, DAOC all had or presented an environment where to really experience the game, with all it had to offer, by binding together with other players, and not simply by a mechanic but by human nature. But for EQ, it wasn’t a uniform environment across all servers, easily avoided and as most did. Not saying it was “bad” just that it was too bad that they didn’t find a balance between the two and from the start. Maybe even R&D more advanced community tools, to build lasting communities within the hostile player environment.

There can never be any such balance here, unfortunately. Casual themeparks are a different monster all together, especially those that aspire to serve the many play-styles while focusing on a rapid e-sport.

I think that there were two conditions under which the lack of trinity would have been less noticeable in GW2. Unfortunately, both would come with other problems.

1. If the content in explorable dungeons were significantly harder, so that support skills, CC and proper use of defensive buffs is needed just to complete a path. In videos of good speed runs, I see a lot of this, so I know that the good players see the possibilities and use them. However, not all the explorable paths are that hard, and many PuG groups get by without using these options, or not noticing if someone in the group is using them. The downside to harder paths? Only the really good players would be playing them.
2. If there were no stats on gear. Stats on gear, especially trinity-style stats such as GW2 has, seems to have created the impression that each prefix “ought” to have a place in all aspects of the game, even in an optimization meta. Really, the existence of a prefix is justified if it is useful in only one mode, or only by players who have no desire to play in the optimization meta. The downsides? ANet used the existence of gear to generate long-term goals for players, which extended the life of the game for some. Also, the need for those materials for gear also fuels a significant portion of the economy.

I know this is a dead horse that barely has anything but bones since it decayed beyond recognition…..but i’m gonna beat it anyway.

…..why…..

Ephemiel.5694:

I know this is a dead horse that barely has anything but bones since it decayed beyond recognition…..but i’m gonna beat it anyway.

…..why…..

because beetles like swarm the dead horses…

Thmash the beetle! Thmash ’em! KHUU! KHUU! KHUU!

There’s no need to tweak any game mechanic to achieve build diversity. It’s something perfectly doable through encounter design.

If the content becomes truly challenging for average and slightly above average meta players (and rewards are balanced so this content becomes more appealing than faceroll one, something ANet looks terrible at), the meta will shift towards defense. Since the game allows for the additional survivability to be both distributed and concentrated, we might get a quite broad range of possibilities.

For really skilled and coordinated groups it will still be about damage and high cost effective (and not gear related) well placed support and control, but that’s how it should be for an action based combat game IMHO.

You would have to make a lot of pve only skills and maybe traits too in order to make a trinity viable without breaking pvp. That’s possible but would take a lot of design time

@OP

Gear besides Berserker is plenty useful in WvW. I’d dislike if they changed things significantly because I think that format is more interesting than PvE and any fundamental mechanical reworkings of the nature you’re suggesting could really muck things up.

GW2 adding the trinity would also be like a vegan shop deciding to stock meat: they might satisfy a few more customers, but they’ll also alienate their niche and lose what made them special.

There’s just no friggin’ way Healing will ever be fun in this game.

Putting the awful futility of healing power, the boredom of low-impact heals, and conceptual conflict with the self-survivability core pillar aside…

When Guardian was first introduced Anet described their struggle to figure the core fun of it, and with it ultimately Support in general. The conclusion they arrived to was: Self Sacrifice.

Healers liking the act of healing because we’re all martyrs or secret masochists is fine thematically, but it sort of glosses over the more mechanically based finer points like the reactive gameplay of bigger heals and the snap decision-making of triage. A conclusion that leans on social/rp elements while blowing past the actual gameplay makes it seem like such an ‘outsider looking in’ thing to say. You can’t help but cast a sidelong glance and wonder if the finer points aren’t delved into for brevity or lack of understanding.

I mean,
it’s not like they’ve ever admitted to sitting around struggling to find the fun in damage, you know?

I honestly miss the holy trinity, but I don’t think it will ever fit into GW2. They would have to do some massive fundamental changes to the game that I don’t see them ever doing.

Hannelore.8153:

Furthermore, in HoT, with the changes to how conditions work, conditions will be more viable than they are now, because they are actually capable of a higher DPS than full beserker gear despite the ramp-up time, because DPS is not lost when dodging. Yes, condition builds synergize BETTER with dodging than zerker.

And maps like Silverwastes have already made conditions and healing essential. you try doing Vinewrath without an HPS elementalist in your group and see how well it pans out. It turns into the entire thing into painful escort missions where your carrier can be destroyed at any given time when out of stealth.

.

1st: Let me address the slight misconception with conditions. While yes, over short intervals, dodging does not affect condition damage, there are a couple small but important things to note. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1S5S-HtHfxwl68nOC97BjVpmzKyvfgM_rBOzaA4U-d-k/edit?usp=sharing Here is a lovely condition build, its one of the best for PvE: capping burn/poison and nearly bleeding in solo situations with minor access to confusion and some not bad might generation. But pure damage still makes up ~25% of the damage and considering I was using rabid setup since this sheet is from before sinister, the pure damage would be a larger percentage, so you will lose dps on dodge, unless you speak specifically about the husks at Triple Wurm. The second major thing to note is the ramp-up time. Ramp-up occurs when you begin a fight and ends when you are set into a continuous renewable rotation where the average output of conditions is matching the loss as conditions wear off. 20 second bleed means your ramp-up time is probably going to be around 20seconds when your first conditions wear off. Unfortunately it must be a continuous rotation, emphasis on continuous, as soon as you dodge, you lose 1-2 seconds of condition GENERATION. So your dps over a short interval will not drop, but 20seconds down the line when the bleed wears off from just before your dodge, you suddenly have a drop in intensity stacking conditions(which will be all damage related conditions post update). You instantaneous dps will not drop, your average will.

2nd: And less importantly, I run silverwaste fort defense for indigo on my meta ele(scholar, zerk, blasting staff), if need be, solo. My conditions are a joke but the only required enemies to kill are very susceptible to high damage aoes and use of terrain, the only time conditions are required is the champion husk that no1 ever does because zerg scaling for the capped conditions would be the worlds longest nightmare.
On the note of VW, I also lead the northern lane on said ele. I have never come across a point where the carrier is in serious danger due to: swiftness(granted by other carriers and players using support), protection(same sources), regen(same sources), barriers(staff ele party, guard staff/hammer, mesmer pulls, ranger immobilize, etc..). When I synergize with 2 other staff eles, we lock down the aggressive packs that spawn and allow an aoe festival on them. Toss in a glyph of storms on air/earth, I either cap vuln or blind the mobs as the carrier passes. At no point do we need any heals on the carrier that can’t be provided by a thief blasting a water 5 with 0 healing power or just water 3. And rarely do we have thieves stealthing(mainly because they are bad at timing the SR on the carrier) and even more rarely do thieves just blast stealth in moments when mobs are approaching the carrier.

Unfortunately between CC and active defenses, and a source of damage(mainly pure in a zerg of 20-30), heals and condition damage become nearly useless. Until condition caps are removed, conditions will be inferior in the majority of encounters because there are too many sources. 2 properly geared condition classes can cap all of the easily accessible conditions as well as providing good uptime on the otheres, beyond a group of 2, conditions are a waste of time. Let alone condition damage not being applied from the source, where condition stats don’t matter as soon as you encounter large groups/random people.

i hope Anet make a trinity system to if you like that
because i get sick and tired of zerk builds

even in dungeons zerk only -.-
i think is there really nothing else anymore then zerk ??

so i hope when HOT is here that you can build a tank ore healer to i be very very happy with that

I don’t know why this is still an issue? Why are you attempting to integrate into the zerk meta instead of just playing the game in whatever fashion you choose? I don’t smack you with a dead horse wearing zerker armour. Likewise do not smack me with a trio of dead horses. Zerk only is mainly dungeons, you don’t see pvp/wvw groups asking for zerk only for reasons that can be found in a multitude of threads. You can already build tanks and healers. Unless nomad armour and eles putting 7 blasts into a water field don’t count?

You don’t need tanking or healing here, you just follow the train. If you get killed you get ressed

Dungeons is another story, all dmg, dodge, etc.
I do miss the rinity alot, cause healing was my favorite thing too. A-net seems to have removed the holy trinity, but made a new one, called the holy berserker mode.

Dmg, dmg, dmg :/. So they have one part of the holy trinity, they have 1/3 of it. Now they need to put in the rest!

Why do people misinterpret “Zerker is the best equip choice” to mean “damage is the only thing that matters”?

Altair.8402:

Why do people misinterpret “Zerker is the best equip choice” to mean “damage is the only thing that matters”?

Because in dungeons, damage is the only thing that matters. Speed, efficiency and cheesing boss mechanics. It’s why I don’t run dungeons because I hate that mentality.

Ralanost.8913:

Altair.8402:

Why do people misinterpret “Zerker is the best equip choice” to mean “damage is the only thing that matters”?

Because in dungeons, damage is the only thing that matters. Speed, efficiency and cheesing boss mechanics. It’s why I don’t run dungeons because I hate that mentality.

That’s not true at all. People use Berserker gear because not only it does the most damage, but you can also do anything else required at the same time. Speed and Efficiency don’t come from using Berserker gear, speed clears aren’t happening because players are using “zerker”.

Good / optimal teams use Might stacking through fire fields, blast finishers traits and utilities, lots of Vulnerability, aegis, stability, blinds, daze, knock down, reflects and many many others.

A good team with great synergy in traits / utilities will do a dungeon path much faster in soldier or cleric gear than the average “zerker wannabe” party in full Berserker.

All those crying about “zerker zerker zerker” probably have no idea what they are talking about that’s why threads about “zerker meta” are becoming boring to read and respond to by those who are actually experienced with the game.

Photonman.6241:

Garth Thurgen.1380:

“More viable”? Support is literally run in every serious dungeon run ever, and control is a major part of every build. Phalanx Strength Warrior is support, and is the 100% defacto for every dungeon team that wants to do a serious dungeon clear. Control is in every single meta build to some degree. It just doesn’t have a defined person specifically doing it.

The Trinity, outside of control, is definitely represented in spades. The fact that you don’t have to have them, though, is something that ANet wanted from the get go. They wanted there to be no reason to have to just wait on a specific role/class to show up to do something, and there really isn’t.

I don’t see how bringing two skills makes you a support character. He’s still in full zerker and he’s still trying to pump out pure damage. Calling that support is a joke. The closest thing we have to support I’d say is mesmer and guard running reflect, and even then it’s just bringing one or two skills. By support I mean bringing a full build and buffing, blocking, and some minor healing for the team. Personal damage would not be a factor at all. This isn’t possible atm which is why it needs to be made ‘more viable.’

His gear has nothing to do with his role. Gear =/= Role. Please understand that.

A PS warrior is support because he is bringing not only skills but also sigils and traits (and possibly food) oriented towards getting his party buffed with might rather than improving his own DPS.

Being a support means you improve the characteristics of your party members – it doesn’t mean you have to heal or tank.

Just because you don’t like the game’s version of support doesn’t mean we don’t have it. It just means you don’t like it.

Not having support at all in the game might be an issue – but you not liking it isn’t – from a developer point of view.

Also why would personal damage not be a factor? Why if you want to support you must give up all damage? Because you like that archetype better?

Ralanost.8913:

Altair.8402:

Why do people misinterpret “Zerker is the best equip choice” to mean “damage is the only thing that matters”?

Because in dungeons, damage is the only thing that matters. Speed, efficiency and cheesing boss mechanics. It’s why I don’t run dungeons because I hate that mentality.

I would argue that if the same player base that made you not want to run dungeons were doing the exact same things in Knight gear you would still hate their mentality and not want to do dungeons.

It’s not about the gear.

Exactly. It is game design that makes us play this way. There have been lots of very well thought out and interesting suggestions put forward to address these issues but the bottom line is simple: No matter what build and tactics are required, you can be sure that someone will find a ‘best practice’ model and teach it to others, thus creating a new meta. And it will always be speed based.

However there are ways to have multiple equivalent meta compositions with different gear, without making trinity strictly necessary (or even close to optiomal)