Guild Wars 2

I’m curious to hear what would be an example of a “no grind” MMO. What about it keeps you from repeating content to get something you want?

Eurhetemec.9052:

Cyninja.2954:

Full set of exotic armor and first weapon set comes to about 70-80g without runes (and you can got with cheap runes first). At about 10-15g per hour farming Silverwastes or even doing other things you’ll have the gold in about 4-5 hours tops. Maybe 10 hours if you do other stuff like dungeons etc.

How is this not considered “easy to get”?

Because you need good gear and great game knowledge to farm remotely near that efficiently?

You can’t even reliably get into dungeons with exotic gear so…

That’s just not true. I haven’t been asked once for my gear in dungeons. Most ppl don’t give a crap. If your party is one of the elitist wannabes, leave it.

Eurhetemec.9052:

Cyninja.2954:

Full set of exotic armor and first weapon set comes to about 70-80g without runes (and you can got with cheap runes first). At about 10-15g per hour farming Silverwastes or even doing other things you’ll have the gold in about 4-5 hours tops. Maybe 10 hours if you do other stuff like dungeons etc.

How is this not considered “easy to get”?

Because you need good gear and great game knowledge to farm remotely near that efficiently?

You can’t even reliably get into dungeons with exotic gear so…

How does following the loot train in SW require gear or game knowledge? Even dungeons are more than doable in rares.

The amount of times you get asked to ping gear, especially for anything but high level fractals, is highly exagerated and just not happening.

Hidori.3472:

Eurhetemec.9052:

Cyninja.2954:

Full set of exotic armor and first weapon set comes to about 70-80g without runes (and you can got with cheap runes first). At about 10-15g per hour farming Silverwastes or even doing other things you’ll have the gold in about 4-5 hours tops. Maybe 10 hours if you do other stuff like dungeons etc.

How is this not considered “easy to get”?

Because you need good gear and great game knowledge to farm remotely near that efficiently?

You can’t even reliably get into dungeons with exotic gear so…

That’s just not true. I haven’t been asked once for my gear in dungeons. Most ppl don’t give a crap. If your party is one of the elitist wannabes, leave it.

Seconded. I’ve never been asked to ping my gear, even in Zerk “required” groups. As long as you don’t keep screwing up and are actively taking part in the dungeon, most people don’t care as long as they can get through the path.

aophts.9862:

OK, i’ll bite.

How is exotic gear “very easy” to get?

Crafting exotics for 1/3 of your slots it is pretty dang easy if you’ve kept up on your harvesting/crafting as you leveled.

Broken Arietta.4631:

Grind the Silverwastes for a chance at getting 1000g drops
Grind fractals for a chance at the fractal tonic
Grind fractals for a chance at the fractal weapon skins

Grind the Silverwastes for a chance at getting into the beta

So fed up of this.

A grind guarantees an end result.

What you’re doing is gambling “Farming” while, at the same time, being very unlucky.

Fixed, I’ll expect my check in the mail 10/10 gr8 b8 m8 swandive

Hidori.3472:

Devata.6589:

Hidori.3472:

you don’t have to grind anything. just play the game how you like. full exotic gear is strong enough for the content and very easy to get.

now ofc if you need ascended gear or badly need a legendary, you’ll have to “grind” for it.

it’s like irl. if you want that big house and expensive car, you have to grind it.

And when people play a game they don’t want to have it like irl. It being a challenge is fine, smaller farms are also acceptable but a never-ending currency grid like irl is not what many people are looking for in a game.

hm.

would you call it grinding when I do all the world bosses every day and the dailies? maybe throw in a few fast dungeon runs, too?

Doing this gives me enough gold and items and I’m happy.

But if I need something fast, I’ll have to grind it. there’s no way around, besides buying gold.

There’s just no need for grinding in this game. It’s all up to oneself and how desperate he is for a particular item.

As I said earlier, full exotic gear is easy to obtain and can be done casually without spending time grinding it.

it’s the nature of things. if we want to have something in a shorter period of time, we have to put in more effort. that’s true on this planet and all others out there.

It’s not about the effort being put in, it’s the never ending brainless grind people complain about, and yes when I do bosses every day just to earn the gold to buy the items I want then it becomes a boring grind.

I rather do something specific to be rewarded the item. Like completing a quest chain, or doing a dungeon, even if there is some RNG for the item to drop, as long as that is an acceptable drop-rate. But this never-ending gold grind is what makes the grind in this game one of the worse type of grind there is imho.

Basically destroying the horizontal progression / cosmetic hunt in this game. Sure there are other things to do, but it’s too bad that the element the game focuses so much on is just so bad because of this grind.

Here’s the thread from a couple months ago. this thread will play out the same way that thread did.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/first

Hell it’s even named nearly the same, the old one being “No-grind philosophy” and the new being No grind philosophy – the difference being the double quotes and the dash.

Best quote from there is

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/5#post4733571

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Required grind does not exist in a game because a game is optional. A lot of people say WoW is one of those grindy games because you ‘had to grind’ to do the highest level raids.

One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional. If you’re not interested in playing the game then the whole grind argument is superfluous.

It only becomes relevant when you actually want to play the game which is where mandatory or optional grind becomes an issue. Do I have to grind in order to play the game? Yes / No… Its a problem were as If I dont follow a specific grind at some point in time I will be prevent from playing anything further the game has to offer. Kinda like a paywall but with grind rather then money.

How is optional grind different then mandatory grind ?

as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck. Imagine having to get a full set of nightmare armor and weapons until you’re allowed in drytop for example and until you get to drytop and get full set of amberite weapons you cannot get to silverwastes which in turn until you get a full set of biolumen armor you cannot move on to heart of thorns.

I want to get to drytop, I want to experience the living story but unless I stick to the torture it will be impossible to ever play with my friends again. I have no choice I need to stick to the schedule and keep up.

lets compare this with actually getting nightmare court armor set, amberite weapons and biolumen armor with it being a requirement for anything. essentially its the same thing but from a game experience point of view its night and day. I do a couple of runs of TA and take a break, go farm a little dry top for those fossils… nahh but I dont feel like it today so let me go work a bit towards the biolumen armor but hey this all getting old so off I go exploring some old zones for something I missed or go level up a new alt with a friend and hey one night guild is organizing a TA run and are 1 down… lets go.

so yes required grind most certainly exists we all play a game an invest so much time in a game cause we want to play that game. grind that prevents you from playing said game is most certainly required grind and you cannot stop the grind or it will become impossible to catch up which ultimately turns the mmo into a single player game for the most part making it very hard for you to catch up with your buddies and thus forever segregating you from them unless you put in an inhuman level of grind to make up for the “slaking” or the game is kind enough to eventually put in some catch up system.

“One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional.”
Sure, you could also put it like this. Then the grind for cosmetics would still be the same as the other types of grind. Both being ‘required’. I don’t really care if you consider it required or not, my point was that there basically are the same. Both not required or both required is not the point. If it’s bad is personal.

“as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck.”
And my primary goal might be getting some cosmetics (collecting them is ‘playing the game’ for me) while your primary goal might be doing the highest level raids.

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Required grind does not exist in a game because a game is optional. A lot of people say WoW is one of those grindy games because you ‘had to grind’ to do the highest level raids.

One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional. If you’re not interested in playing the game then the whole grind argument is superfluous.

It only becomes relevant when you actually want to play the game which is where mandatory or optional grind becomes an issue. Do I have to grind in order to play the game? Yes / No… Its a problem were as If I dont follow a specific grind at some point in time I will be prevent from playing anything further the game has to offer. Kinda like a paywall but with grind rather then money.

How is optional grind different then mandatory grind ?

as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck. Imagine having to get a full set of nightmare armor and weapons until you’re allowed in drytop for example and until you get to drytop and get full set of amberite weapons you cannot get to silverwastes which in turn until you get a full set of biolumen armor you cannot move on to heart of thorns.

I want to get to drytop, I want to experience the living story but unless I stick to the torture it will be impossible to ever play with my friends again. I have no choice I need to stick to the schedule and keep up.

lets compare this with actually getting nightmare court armor set, amberite weapons and biolumen armor with it being a requirement for anything. essentially its the same thing but from a game experience point of view its night and day. I do a couple of runs of TA and take a break, go farm a little dry top for those fossils… nahh but I dont feel like it today so let me go work a bit towards the biolumen armor but hey this all getting old so off I go exploring some old zones for something I missed or go level up a new alt with a friend and hey one night guild is organizing a TA run and are 1 down… lets go.

so yes required grind most certainly exists we all play a game an invest so much time in a game cause we want to play that game. grind that prevents you from playing said game is most certainly required grind and you cannot stop the grind or it will become impossible to catch up which ultimately turns the mmo into a single player game for the most part making it very hard for you to catch up with your buddies and thus forever segregating you from them unless you put in an inhuman level of grind to make up for the “slaking” or the game is kind enough to eventually put in some catch up system.

“One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional.”
Sure, you could also put it like this. Then the grind for cosmetics would still be the same as the other types of grind. Both being ‘required’. I don’t really care if you consider it required or not, my point was that there basically are the same. Both not required or both required is not the point. If it’s bad is personal.

“as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck.”
And my primary goal might be getting some cosmetics (collecting them is ‘playing the game’ for me) while your primary goal might be doing the highest level raids.

According to the court of internet public opinion skins are not content. A patch releasing just new skins is not considered to be a content patch and therefore any effort to acquire a specific skin is considered completely optional and can therefore not be grind.

Also according to the internet court of public opinion raids are considered content. The release of a new raid is considered a content release and any forced play time to get to experience this new content is considered the grind wall for said raid.

Therefore the internet court of public opinion must rule in favor of Galen Grey.4709.

As far as the original post there is a surprising split decision. Since the beta test will include HoT content and players will be forced to play in DryTop and Silverwastes, this does constitute a required grind according to the internet court of public opinion. If this were changed to drop from any map in the game that would no longer be the case.

Nike.2631:

Lets be perfectly clear:

The “no grind” policy extends to a full set of Exotic gear. Full Stop. Done. Finito.

EVERYTHING beyond that does and is intended to require MASSIVE investment of playtime or real money.

Based on Colin’s statements a few months ago, the “no grind” policy was meant to extend to ascended gear as well.

Eurhetemec.9052:

Cyninja.2954:

Full set of exotic armor and first weapon set comes to about 70-80g without runes (and you can got with cheap runes first). At about 10-15g per hour farming Silverwastes or even doing other things you’ll have the gold in about 4-5 hours tops. Maybe 10 hours if you do other stuff like dungeons etc.

How is this not considered “easy to get”?

Because you need good gear and great game knowledge to farm remotely near that efficiently?

You can’t even reliably get into dungeons with exotic gear so…

HOLD IT!!!

I stoped reading here and I bet alot of others have said that you are wrong by now but I wan’t to say my part too as it is posts like this post I quoted that ruins gameplay for many players.

You don’t have to be friggin good to follow a raid around and farm your behind of in Silverwastes or anywhere for that matter, as long as you are level 80 with 80 gear (No Exotic required) you are good to go.

Dungeons!!! Level 80 and even Exotic is to low to run a dungeon with!? What friggin BS is this? I run dungeons daily, but okay I do rarely PUG but I have been doing my own PUG’s lately and I have had people with lower level than required to do the dungeon and we have done them easy. I have done alot of dungeons with people that is realy newbs and we have done them all.

Now are you mixing dungeons with fractals!? For fractals 1-9 is possilble just with level 80 and 80 gear (No exotic required), but as you get above fractals level 10 you will need Ascended Accesories and that you can get by just playing fractals and trade your tokens.

Required or not required to farm or Grind in this game… I have rarely grinded or farmed any part of this game and I have all classes at level 80, a few of them has Ascended and the rest of them has Exotic. I play every part of this game, PvE, PvP and WvW… I don’t realy care for ascended gear, when I get it I get it and when I have enough crafting mats I craft it. I do not buy Crafting mats to craft a full Ascended armor (Though I have bought some pieces when I was “this close” to be able to craft a piece). I have never owned a Precursor, I have never owned a Legendary becouse I havent had a Precursor drop ever but I do not care becouse when I get one I will smile and be happy but until then I will enjoy the content I like in this game.

I have never fealt required to grind anything in this game.
Before this game I played an MMO based on a book by Tolkien (Not saying the name :P) And this game required me to grind Raid Content over and over and even for me to play PvP I had to grind Quests and kills to get a better armor to be able to finally compeate in the PvP. More or less everything I did in the game I was required to Grind something over and over again to fully enjoy the newest content of the game.

This entire thread is an argument about the definition of a specific word. It happens to be a word with several alternative definitions and still more connotations.

It’s, of course, your choice, if you want to get hung up about how ANet chose to use the word. I would argue that is a ‘grindy’ choice to keep making the same argument on the same topic, resulting in the same lack of response (for the same reasons that people keep posting in response).

tl;dr if you choose to grind by posting complaints based on the definition of the word ‘grind’, you might also want to revisit the word ‘irony’ .

Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!

By Colin Johanson June 19th, 2012

Broken Arietta.4631:

Grind the Silverwastes for a chance at getting 1000g drops
Grind fractals for a chance at the fractal tonic
Grind fractals for a chance at the fractal weapon skins

Grind the Silverwastes for a chance at getting into the beta

So fed up of this.

Oh yes of course, the mandatory grind to get that fractal tonic that of course is 100% necessary and will only put you at a disadvantage by not having it.

You are confusing no grind at all with no mandatory grind.

You can enjoy every aspect of this game without any kind of grinding.

You kids have no idea what grinding is. I feel sorry for you, you’re spoiled.

Test.8734:

Nike.2631:

Lets be perfectly clear:

The “no grind” policy extends to a full set of Exotic gear. Full Stop. Done. Finito.

EVERYTHING beyond that does and is intended to require MASSIVE investment of playtime or real money.

Based on Colin’s statements a few months ago, the “no grind” policy was meant to extend to ascended gear as well.

Never. They were explicit in saying Ascended was created to be something to do between the ease of Exotic gear and building a Legendary. It’s prolonged by design.

Nike.2631:

Test.8734:

Nike.2631:

Lets be perfectly clear:

The “no grind” policy extends to a full set of Exotic gear. Full Stop. Done. Finito.

EVERYTHING beyond that does and is intended to require MASSIVE investment of playtime or real money.

Based on Colin’s statements a few months ago, the “no grind” policy was meant to extend to ascended gear as well.

Never. They were explicit in saying Ascended was created to be something to do between the ease of Exotic gear and building a Legendary. It’s prolonged by design.

Yes, they were explicit.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/4733273

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

(bolded the important part)

It is indeed explicit. They don’t consider BiS to be optional, and dor them BiS means Ascended.

So, you were saying?

Azala Yar.7693:

…..
Problem is this game tends to push collecting sets of items as an activity, so if someone wants or is compelled to collect then they have no choice.
….

The game OFFERS the ability to collect sets and EVERYONE that plays the game has a multitude of choices on how to spend their time in game. What a player WANTS is part of that choice. Your implication that any player is FORCED to collect sets that are offered within the game is a way to justify potentially obsessive behavior and poor self control.

If you seriously feel “forced” to grind for an item, maybe you should re-kitten your reasons for playing the game.

Nike.2631:

Test.8734:

Nike.2631:

Lets be perfectly clear:

The “no grind” policy extends to a full set of Exotic gear. Full Stop. Done. Finito.

EVERYTHING beyond that does and is intended to require MASSIVE investment of playtime or real money.

Based on Colin’s statements a few months ago, the “no grind” policy was meant to extend to ascended gear as well.

Never. They were explicit in saying Ascended was created to be something to do between the ease of Exotic gear and building a Legendary. It’s prolonged by design.

By the ANet definition, Ascended is not grind because you can obtain the mats (or get the pie-in-the-sky drop that you’ll use) doing many different things. They view grind as doing the same content over and over for months on end to get gear. It’s OK if it’s doing the same x (where x = 20+) pieces of content over and over again, or if it’s the same content over and over, but the reward is not stat-based.

Perhaps I should revise my original post. I wont edit the OP however I’ll reply.

I think I’m annoyed more with the pure luck on drops. With the direction anet are heading in on making precursors obtainable through collections (something the community has been crying for, since the games release) it baffles me that they continue to have items in game that are for the select few that get very lucky.
The items I specifically made reference to in my original post were the Fractal skins (many people still looking for that sword), The Fractal tonic (over 200~ 41+s and counting) the very rare halloween/silverwastes accessory that gives your character a special glow.

Random tangent here :/
One reason I bring this up is that they are giving players a chance test the beta if they do the content anet tells them to do
I have to stop my daily dungeon tour/fractal tour (that has plenty of mobs to farm btw) to help test the new stuff? I already have my Bio luminescent set, I farmed that when it was released. Why am I being punished for playing elements of the game I enjoy
okay back to the thread

It’s great that these items exist in the game. It’s great that they are very rare. But implement something for those that have farmed Fractal 41+ and received no reward repeatedly every day sometimes a way to get these things.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not under the impression that games shouldn’t have some rng involved. It’s nice to get a super rare skin from a monster that only a few other people have. But actually, if it’s a skin I can’t use / don’t have a character I actively play on to use then it’s no good to me whatsoever.

There should always be a way to get items such as these. I’m not saying they should be easy to get by any means, I just feel there should be a light at the end of the tunnel. There should be some target you can meet to get what you want. It’s pretty disheartening to see someone run their first 50, get a Fractal Sword (the one you’ve been wanting since you began fractals at launch) and then they never play a character that uses the sword. (This isn’t personal experience by the way)

I am all for the ascended weapons/armor being rng as with the rings. They at least can be obtained after doing X amount of Fractals (Pristine). Logging in X amount of days (Laurels). Fractal skins on the other hand just are so RNG based that you could very feasibly never get the one that you want.

Broken Arietta.4631:

Random tangent here :/
One reason I bring this up is that they are giving players a chance test the beta if they do the content anet tells them to do
I have to stop my daily dungeon tour/fractal tour (that has plenty of mobs to farm btw) to help test the new stuff? I already have my Bio luminescent set, I farmed that when it was released. Why am I being punished for playing elements of the game I enjoy

This is the part you seem to be having difficulty with. You don’t HAVE to do anything. If all you want to do is dungeons, then do that. Don’t worry about beta testing. You don’t need to do content you don’t want to do.

If having a chance at beta testing is more important to you, then do silverwastes for a couple days. It won’t kill you. If you can’t stand Silverwastes, you’re probably not going to be super thrilled with HoT, and will just go back to dungeon running again anyway.

People seem to have this weird idea that not getting something is a punishment. If you want to do dungeons, do them. What do they have to do with beta testing? Nothing. A punishment is when you have something taken from you that you were supposed to have or that you already had. It isn’t failing to get a reward contingent on specific criteria that you chose not to do.

Not everyone can be, nor should be a winner. It’s not healthy.

INB4 the argument that Ascended is required and non-optional, as it is considered BiS. And that ascended itself is a grind because of the amount of materials it requires, specifially silk. Thus because it requires so much silk, that by definition is a grind. And silk is so expensive due to inflation, and because of RNG, that one is forced to run dungeons all day, and grind silverwastes to get silk drops.

This is followed by the argument that you can obtain silk doing almost everything in the game, thus you can do whatever you want and still obtain all the items that you need to craft ascended.

Countered by, by due to RNG it will literally take years to do that unless you specifically grind for it.

Also INB4: Anet said in their manifesto that there would be no grind, but clearly there is grind, so therefore they lied. As you cannot obtain ascended gear without getting a super ultra rare drop, or grinding the same thing over and over again.

Did I miss anything?

/thread. Thanks!

pdavis.8031:

INB4 the argument that Ascended is required and non-optional, as it is considered BiS. And that ascended itself is a grind because of the amount of materials it requires, specifially silk. Thus because it requires so much silk, that by definition is a grind. And silk is so expensive due to inflation, and because of RNG, that one is forced to run dungeons all day, and grind silverwastes to get silk drops.

This is followed by the argument that you can obtain silk doing almost everything in the game, thus you can do whatever you want and still obtain all the items that you need to craft ascended.

Countered by, by due to RNG it will literally take years to do that unless you specifically grind for it.

Also INB4: Anet said in their manifesto that there would be no grind, but clearly there is grind, so therefore they lied. As you cannot obtain ascended gear without getting a super ultra rare drop, or grinding the same thing over and over again.

Did I miss anything?

/thread. Thanks!

None of which is actually grinding, it’s all just farming. Now all you whipper snappers git off mah lawn.

Kal Spiro.9745:

pdavis.8031:

INB4 the argument that Ascended is required and non-optional, as it is considered BiS. And that ascended itself is a grind because of the amount of materials it requires, specifially silk. Thus because it requires so much silk, that by definition is a grind. And silk is so expensive due to inflation, and because of RNG, that one is forced to run dungeons all day, and grind silverwastes to get silk drops.

This is followed by the argument that you can obtain silk doing almost everything in the game, thus you can do whatever you want and still obtain all the items that you need to craft ascended.

Countered by, by due to RNG it will literally take years to do that unless you specifically grind for it.

Also INB4: Anet said in their manifesto that there would be no grind, but clearly there is grind, so therefore they lied. As you cannot obtain ascended gear without getting a super ultra rare drop, or grinding the same thing over and over again.

Did I miss anything?

/thread. Thanks!

None of which is actually grinding, it’s all just farming. Now all you whipper snappers git off mah lawn.

I am with you. However these are the arguments that get brought up each time this topic comes up. Just thought I would make things easier for everybody and get them out of the way :P

Kal Spiro.9745:

None of which is actually grinding, it’s all just farming. Now all you whipper snappers git off mah lawn.

Removing grind by redefining it to not be called grind. Pure genius.
I guess since we solved that problem, people will stop complaining since they won’t be grinding anymo…
oh wait.

Oh, goody! Yet another pointless thread complaining about “grinding”.
If you don’t like playing a game with grind(no matter your definition), then you shouldn’t be playing ANY mmorpgs.

Don’t like the “grind”? Then don’t do it. Simple as that.

Darn, there just went 30 seconds I will never get back.

Ayrilana.1396:

Devata.6589:

Ayrilana.1396:

Devata.6589:

Required grind does not exist in a game because a game is optional.

I’m sorry but that’s inaccurate and flawed reasoning. Stating a game is optional has no bearing as to whether content locked behind a repetitive method of acquisition is in fact a grind or not.

Think of it in another way. Let’s say that in order for players to even start the game, they have to left click 1 million times. Then upon each level they get, they have to left click another 1 million times. All of this clicking is in order to progress in the game. Now by your argument, this game contains no grind because that game is optional.

I understand that there are people that tend to use the “game is optional” argument but it is flawed. Anything that is optional can still have grind that is required in order to experience some or all of the content within.

“I’m sorry but that’s inaccurate and flawed reasoning.” No it’s not.

“Stating a game is optional has no bearing as to whether content locked behind a repetitive method of acquisition is in fact a grind or not.” You are completely right. But making this out of what I said is flawed reasoning.

I simply said it was by definition not ‘required’. I do not talk about content being locked behind something. Not to mention that ‘content’ can be explained in many ways. Collecting those cosmetics is also considered ‘content’ by many and that is locked behind a repetitive method of acquisition. What makes in double flawed.

“Let’s say that in order for players to even start the game, they have to left click 1 million times.” While this would come the closes to definition of ‘required’ in a game it’s a completely unrealistic example (I don’t know any game where you would need to grind before you would be able to get into the game itself).

“Then upon each level they get, they have to left click another 1 million times.” That is only ‘if’ you want to get to the second level. There is always stuff you can do at level 1 and maybe that’s just fine for you. Getting to the next level is always a choice.

“Now by your argument, this game contains no grind because that game is optional.” Wait whut? I did not say it was not grind, I said it was not required! That is something else! What btw does not make it any better, let me also be clear about that.

The problem is that some people tent to consider grind to reach their personal goals as ‘required’ grind while the grind other people need to do to achieve their goals as optional grind they choose to do.

“Anything that is optional can still have grind that is required in order to experience some or all of the content within.” Yes, I never said this was not the case. In fact, that is my point. All grind is optional, that does not make one type of grind worse than another type of grind by definition. It’s a personal thing. It’s bad for you if it locks what you want.

I was not talking about the type of grind that either exists or doesn’t exist in this game. What I was talking about was your usage of the argument that because a game is optional, there is no grind whether it be optional or required. This is incorrect.

“What I was talking about was your usage of the argument that because a game is optional, there is no grind whether it be optional or required.”

I know, and the problem is.. that I did not say this, or anything close to this.

I said grind is always optional because the game is optional. I did not say, the game is optional so there is no grind:S. My whole argument here is that the grind is bad so why would I say there is no grind?:S

Killface.1896:

GRIND is for end game gear and that not hard to get,other stuff like gold,epic skins are are meant to be hard to get or it would just be meaningless as everybody would have them.

They are not hard, they are a never-ending boring brainless grind.

Heck, I would love it if they where locked behind some hard challenging content in steads of this easy but boring brainless grind.

Ehemmm …
Listening to the majority is good

Ah well nvm, tommorow will be my last day of work and i wil have plentiful of time from now on :P

I hope to some1 outsider to kitten me off , so i can aim/vent at him instead :P
(otherwise the mentor Daniel-san will get anoyed again :P)

Lukse.6283:

Its a game dude, so you should enjoy what you are doing. If you hate grinding I would rather go to factory and work there, as well get some money in return lol. Of course everyone wants best coolest looking gear, to show off, thats human nature, but if its your only goal, I would stop cause its waste of time

Yeah.. if it is a grind like in GW2 you are right. That is also the complain you see here. Make it fun, interesting content in stead of this boring grind that is just as bad as working in a factory. Many other mmo’s manage to make the hunt for ‘getting that coolest looking item’ enjoyable content.

Hidori.3472:

Hylgeriak.8250:

It is grind if you make it a grind.

what he said.

Non grindy way:
do world bosses which give you two bonus chests and two dungeons of your choice.
if you’re up for it, do one complete silverwastes run.

This will take you a few days, but there you go: not grindy.

The grindy way:
silverwastes weekend
and you’re done

Your Non grindy way sounds kinda grindy to me. Doing bosses and dungeons and silver-waste just to see this number (gold) slowly going up until the point where you can then buy the item you want.

cocowoushi.7150:

I’m curious to hear what would be an example of a “no grind” MMO. What about it keeps you from repeating content to get something you want?

Not grindy or way less grind? You will always have some grind and some types of grind are also worse then other.

But when, for example, looking at the cosmetics like mini’s, toys, mounts and so on collecting then in WoW (a game most people here are familiar with) is far more enjoyable and is / feels way less grindy then in GW2.

Let take min’s for examples. Here for 90% is ’’grind gold and buy" or “buy with cash”. In WoW some are rewarded from quest, some you can make with a craft, some you can catch in the world, some are being rewarded for dungeons, some drop from mobs (the last two can be a guaranteed drop or with some RNG while usually a way more doable drop-rate), some simply spawn at places in the world you can scout for and so on.

Collecting them there can be fun, interesting, enjoyable content by itself. In GW2 it’s just a boring grind for most of them.

Devata.6589:

I know, and the problem is.. that I did not say this, or anything close to this.

I said grind is always optional because the game is optional. I did not say, the game is optional so there is no grind:S. My whole argument here is that the grind is bad so why would I say there is no grind?:S

Except what you’re saying is false. Whether a game is optional or not had absolutely no bearing on whether the grind within the game is optional or not. Neither influences the other.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Ehemmm …
Listening to the majority is good

Not always. Generally it’s the uniformed majority that calls for specific changes that would be terrible if implemented. If the majority was listened to always, and everything they wanted was put into effect, the results could very well be catastrophic.

For example, there is a majority of people in my State that are calling for a $15 an hour minimum wage. Their reasoning is that if everyone coul make $15 and hour, then poverty would be reduced, and more people would be better off and happier because they would make more money. However, such a raise will drive out businesses (and is already happening with a $12 minimum wage hike in Seattle) which means less jobs, and much much higher unemployement. Also they forget that with every wage hike, the cost of living goes up accordingly. Businesses are already talking about replacing employees with computers and tablets at restaurants (which are a large marjority of businessess that will be effected) in order to stay in business if this happens.

So yeah the majority shouldn’t always be listened to, and in many cases the majority is very very wrong.

gaspara.4079:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

~

~

“One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional.”
Sure, you could also put it like this. Then the grind for cosmetics would still be the same as the other types of grind. Both being ‘required’. I don’t really care if you consider it required or not, my point was that there basically are the same. Both not required or both required is not the point. If it’s bad is personal.

“as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck.”
And my primary goal might be getting some cosmetics (collecting them is ‘playing the game’ for me) while your primary goal might be doing the highest level raids.

According to the court of internet public opinion skins are not content. A patch releasing just new skins is not considered to be a content patch and therefore any effort to acquire a specific skin is considered completely optional and can therefore not be grind.

Also according to the internet court of public opinion raids are considered content. The release of a new raid is considered a content release and any forced play time to get to experience this new content is considered the grind wall for said raid.

Therefore the internet court of public opinion must rule in favor of Galen Grey.4709.

As far as the original post there is a surprising split decision. Since the beta test will include HoT content and players will be forced to play in DryTop and Silverwastes, this does constitute a required grind according to the internet court of public opinion. If this were changed to drop from any map in the game that would no longer be the case.

A skin is not content no, but the way to obtain that skin can be interesting content, and the skin (or other cosmetic) can even help to enhance the experience of that content.

“and therefore any effort to acquire a specific skin is considered completely optional and can therefore not be grind.” Of course this part is not decided by ’’the court of Internet public" but some illogical logic you add to it because you notice how the fact that a skin itself is not content did not really help your point
Sadly enough, the rest of your post is based on this assumption.

Yes it is optional but that does not mean it’s not a grind or it is not bad. It is bad for everybody who likes to hunt down cosmetics.

“The release of a new raid is considered a content release and any forced play time to get to experience this new content is considered the grind wall for said raid.” Yes this is ALSO grind and bad for the people who want to do those raid..

Exactly as bad as the grind for the cosmetics is, for the people who like to get those cosmetics. There is no difference whatsoever. If the part you like to achieve (being it an item, or a raid) requires a boring grind, that is bad.

“Therefore the Internet court of public opinion must rule in favor of Galen Grey.4709.” No, the people who like to do raids would rule in favor of Galen Grey. (And those following your illogical logic)

Devata.6589:

Killface.1896:

GRIND is for end game gear and that not hard to get,other stuff like gold,epic skins are are meant to be hard to get or it would just be meaningless as everybody would have them.

They are not hard, they are a never-ending boring brainless grind.

Heck, I would love it if they where locked behind some hard challenging content in steads of this easy but boring brainless grind.

Yea, and after one has played the same game for a few years, that ‘hard challenging’ content certainly would never become old/tired/easy/brainless, huh?

Same complaints from years ago in the very first mmos. And the same solution now as way back then.

Yawn.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

This entire thread is an argument about the definition of a specific word. It happens to be a word with several alternative definitions and still more connotations.

It’s, of course, your choice, if you want to get hung up about how ANet chose to use the word. I would argue that is a ‘grindy’ choice to keep making the same argument on the same topic, resulting in the same lack of response (for the same reasons that people keep posting in response).

tl;dr if you choose to grind by posting complaints based on the definition of the word ‘grind’, you might also want to revisit the word ‘irony’ .

But it’s not about the word or Anets definition, it’s about the perceived grind. It does not matter what type of grind Anet tries to prevent or how one person defines grind while another defines it different. You have a problem when many people feel a ‘grind’, get bored by the game because of it and eventually possibly leave the game because of it.

So thats basically how I look at it.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!

By Colin Johanson June 19th, 2012

Seeing this number going up slowly is way more boring then always having the rush of ’’will it drop". With a currency like tokens you know from the start how many runs you will need (what is boring) while with the RNG it might drop the first time but you can also be unlucky and take longer.
However, based on the drop-rate the average number of runs you need to do for it to drop can be exactly the same as the numbers of runs you need to do to get the tokens.

So in number of runs it would not have to be different but the currency system is the boring option where the RNG is the more trilling ‘will it drop rush’ option.

And why would some currency like tokens that are useless until I have a specific number of them, feel rewarded? Is doesn’t. Not to me at least. It’s basically junk until you have enough of it.

Maybe the fact that they think the currency / token system is better is then the biggest flaw in their design philosophy if it comes to grind ans that is what makes everything such a boring grind.

Teon.5168:

Devata.6589:

Killface.1896:

GRIND is for end game gear and that not hard to get,other stuff like gold,epic skins are are meant to be hard to get or it would just be meaningless as everybody would have them.

They are not hard, they are a never-ending boring brainless grind.

Heck, I would love it if they where locked behind some hard challenging content in steads of this easy but boring brainless grind.

Yea, and after one has played the same game for a few years, that ‘hard challenging’ content certainly would never become old/tired/easy/brainless, huh?

Same complaints from years ago in the very first mmos. And the same solution now as way back then.

Yawn.

No, it will likely get boring, that is why I am also in favor of having yearly expansions in stead of these LS and then an expansion after 3 years. But that is a completely different topic.

So sure, content can get boring (while good content does not have to get boring, I still love to play Wolfenstein:ET even after 10 years and having done some of the maps probably well over a 1000 times) but that is not an excuse for having everything a never ending boring brainless grind?

OH yeah… the same people, the same arguments. Please Anet, don’t change how your reward system works. If I wanted to experience low chance loot drops from mobs in zerg raids, I WOULDN’T be playing GW2. I’m not alone.

This game level system is a grind. bring back normal quest.

Devata.6589:

Teon.5168:

Devata.6589:

Killface.1896:

GRIND is for end game gear and that not hard to get,other stuff like gold,epic skins are are meant to be hard to get or it would just be meaningless as everybody would have them.

They are not hard, they are a never-ending boring brainless grind.

Heck, I would love it if they where locked behind some hard challenging content in steads of this easy but boring brainless grind.

Yea, and after one has played the same game for a few years, that ‘hard challenging’ content certainly would never become old/tired/easy/brainless, huh?

Same complaints from years ago in the very first mmos. And the same solution now as way back then.

Yawn.

No, it will likely get boring, that is why I am also in favor of having yearly expansion in stead of these LS and then an expansion after 3 years. But that is a completely different topic.

So sure, content can get boring (while good content does not have to get boring, I still love to play Wolfenstein:ET even after 10 years and having done some of the maps probably well over a 1000 times) but that is not an excuse for having everything a never ending boring brainless grind?

Not everything is a never ending grind. Maybe to you it is, but not to me.

Just like Wolfenstein:ET. You love that game even after 10 years. It is a decent game for it’s genre, imo……but beyond that….meh. I doubt if I could get very enthusiastic about that game even if you paid me. Just not my kind of game.

That’s the whole issue about threads like these. Personal opinion and perceptions, and nothing more. That’s why the whole ‘grind’ complaint thread to me is so completely pointless/useless, and a complete waste of time.

Speaking of that, I got better things to do……like watching the grass grow.

Gazille.7381:

This game level system is a grind. bring back normal quest.

Doing quests is a grind. Let us have instant level 80s with full traits and BiS gear from creation.

yea thats cool brah, let anet insta 80 you and spoon feed you everything too

pdavis.8031:

Gazille.7381:

This game level system is a grind. bring back normal quest.

Doing quests is a grind. Let us have instant level 80s with full traits and BiS gear from creation.

This is what spvp was. And all the people cried “No Progression!” So…yeah

If you didnt have grind before you have now

As said, you will have to “acquire” the new skills in order to beat the new content.

Yeah, I know, better grinding new skills (and pls god make it only the new skills, because for what i have seen from the new system there’s a fair chance of having to grind the old ones again) than grinding bigger numbers for the old ones.

But at the end of the day its still a grind.

And yeah, PvE is just a big farming tool
If wanst that money prize in the end of each dungeon path, nobody would be running it.

pdavis.8031:

Gazille.7381:

This game level system is a grind. bring back normal quest.

Doing quests is a grind. Let us have instant level 80s with full traits and BiS gear from creation.

In gw1 you could have bis gear within hour of creating a character. It didn’t make the game any less interesting.
In sPvP gameplay mode of GW2, you have what you proposed already. It doesn’t make that part of the game any less interesting.

Devata.6589:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!

By Colin Johanson June 19th, 2012

Seeing this number going up slowly is way more boring then always having the rush of ’’will it drop". With a currency like tokens you know from the start how many runs you will need (what is boring) while with the RNG it might drop the first time but you can also be unlucky and take longer.
However, based on the drop-rate the average number of runs you need to do for it to drop can be exactly the same as the numbers of runs you need to do to get the tokens.

So in number of runs it would not have to be different but the currency system is the boring option where the RNG is the more trilling ‘will it drop rush’ option.

And why would some currency like tokens that are useless until I have a specific number of them, feel rewarded? Is doesn’t. Not to me at least. It’s basically junk until you have enough of it.

Maybe the fact that they think the currency / token system is better is then the biggest flaw in their design philosophy if it comes to grind ans that is what makes everything such a boring grind.

Seeing the number go up steadily is the more interesting and fulfilling option while hoping for a random number generator to decide to favor you is a boring and unfulfilling option.

Broken Arietta.4631:

Grind the Silverwastes for a chance at getting 1000g drops
Grind fractals for a chance at the fractal tonic
Grind fractals for a chance at the fractal weapon skins

Grind the Silverwastes for a chance at getting into the beta

So fed up of this.

So, wha you are saying, you want everything to drop often needing no time put into game, effectivelly leaving this game without players in no time, just because they got everything in game while ruing any economy that this game has? Really? Rare drops are NOT grinding, they are rare drops, where you ned luck and love of RNGesus