Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

It is indeed explicit. They don’t consider BiS to be optional, and dor them BiS means Ascended.

So, you were saying?

You may be surprised to discover there are directly contradictory quotes available discussing the design process underlying the Ascended tier. Quotes backed up by this trifling little thing I like to call OBSERVABLE REALITY. I’ll see if I can find it for you .

A good starting place is here – while it take a little reading between the lines, when you “bridge a gap” between something unexpectedly quick and soul crushingly long, that bridge is not just more of the unexpectedly quick. I’ll keep looking for the exact quote I’m thinking of though.

Astralporing.1957:

Removing grind by redefining it to not be called grind. Pure genius.
I guess since we solved that problem, people will stop complaining since they won’t be grinding anymo…
oh wait.

I fail to see how people have difficulty understanding such simple definitions. A grind is something you have to get through, farming is always optional. You’re not forced to grind for anything in this game, everything is pretty much given to you either as a reward for levelling or rewards for completing tasks.

So far I’ve not heard one compelling argument that shows Guild Wars could be considered a ‘grind’. The only cited examples are all optional extras which won’t interest every player and are designed to be rare.

See, here’s the thing. Rarity makes these things more valuable. If everyone could get them easily, they’d be less special and therefore less appealing. Their appeal essentially lies in being difficult to obtain. Just look at Guild Wars classic. Black dye was exceptionally rare, therefore people often clad themselves entirely in black. Not for aesthetics, but as a show of wealth because they COULD.

You want the best gear? You can get it doing just about any major content. Bloodstone dust drops like rain, dragonite ore can be gained from boss fights, empyrean from events. There you go, craft your own ascended gear.

You want the best looking gear? Well, you’ll have to work a bit longer for those rare items and do a bit of farming. It won’t make you any more powerful than your peers, but you’ll stand out because fewer people have it.

Is this really such a difficult concept to understand?

Obtena.7952:

OH yeah… the same people, the same arguments. Please Anet, don’t change how your reward system works. If I wanted to experience low chance loot drops from mobs in zerg raids, I WOULDN’T be playing GW2. I’m not alone.

“If I wanted to experience low chance loot drops from mobs in zerg raids, I WOULDN’T be playing GW2.”
This is exactly what GW2 gives you.. with the exception of the word ‘raid’. But then again, nobody here asked for raids.

" I WOULDN’T be playing GW2. " Well, many people AREN’T playing GW2 because of this.

Tomoyo.3482:

if ya want grind try ff14 >.> when they give you a 50% exp boost to lvl up the other classes and give resets exp bonus there is major grind. the last 10 levels even with boost takes hours to do vs here. as some state near best gear (exotics) are cheap/free to get depending on how you go about it.

ff14 inst long. its averages to like an hour or so per level, with 50 levels. Do dungeons close to your level. Doing dailies is even faster
that said, its a lot harder for DD to get random dungeons than tanks or healers which tend to queue instantly.

Lemuria.3195:

Astralporing.1957:

Removing grind by redefining it to not be called grind. Pure genius.
I guess since we solved that problem, people will stop complaining since they won’t be grinding anymo…
oh wait.

I fail to see how people have difficulty understanding such simple definitions. A grind is something you have to get through, farming is always optional. You’re not forced to grind for anything in this game, everything is pretty much given to you either as a reward for levelling or rewards for completing tasks.

So far I’ve not heard one compelling argument that shows Guild Wars could be considered a ‘grind’. The only cited examples are all optional extras which won’t interest every player and are designed to be rare.

See, here’s the thing. Rarity makes these things more valuable. If everyone could get them easily, they’d be less special and therefore less appealing. Their appeal essentially lies in being difficult to obtain. Just look at Guild Wars classic. Black dye was exceptionally rare, therefore people often clad themselves entirely in black. Not for aesthetics, but as a show of wealth because they COULD.

You want the best gear? You can get it doing just about any major content. Bloodstone dust drops like rain, dragonite ore can be gained from boss fights, empyrean from events. There you go, craft your own ascended gear.

You want the best looking gear? Well, you’ll have to work a bit longer for those rare items and do a bit of farming. It won’t make you any more powerful than your peers, but you’ll stand out because fewer people have it.

Is this really such a difficult concept to understand?

the point they were making is the definition of grind is an argument about the accepted meaning of words.

But what players are saying regardless of the meaning of the word is that when they try to play the game normally, it feels like they have to repeat content for long periods of time to try to make what they consider to be progress.

now, you can call that a different word if you want, but point is to many players how the game seems to promote them to play, is what they would call a grind.

so the question is, is that type of feeling they hope the game generates.

Teon.5168:

Devata.6589:

Teon.5168:

Devata.6589:

Killface.1896:

GRIND is for end game gear and that not hard to get,other stuff like gold,epic skins are are meant to be hard to get or it would just be meaningless as everybody would have them.

They are not hard, they are a never-ending boring brainless grind.

Heck, I would love it if they where locked behind some hard challenging content in steads of this easy but boring brainless grind.

Yea, and after one has played the same game for a few years, that ‘hard challenging’ content certainly would never become old/tired/easy/brainless, huh?

Same complaints from years ago in the very first mmos. And the same solution now as way back then.

Yawn.

No, it will likely get boring, that is why I am also in favor of having yearly expansion in stead of these LS and then an expansion after 3 years. But that is a completely different topic.

So sure, content can get boring (while good content does not have to get boring, I still love to play Wolfenstein:ET even after 10 years and having done some of the maps probably well over a 1000 times) but that is not an excuse for having everything a never ending boring brainless grind?

Not everything is a never ending grind. Maybe to you it is, but not to me.

Just like Wolfenstein:ET. You love that game even after 10 years. It is a decent game for it’s genre, imo……but beyond that….meh. I doubt if I could get very enthusiastic about that game even if you paid me. Just not my kind of game.

That’s the whole issue about threads like these. Personal opinion and perceptions, and nothing more. That’s why the whole ‘grind’ complaint thread to me is so completely pointless/useless, and a complete waste of time.

Speaking of that, I got better things to do……like watching the grass grow.

That’s what I have said from the beginning, some grind might be bad to you and good for me and the other way around. Still there is progress to be made. Some changes would not hurt the people who like it but help those who dislike it. Those people (who mostly left by now) might come back with HoT so that’s the moment to have it fixed.

So yes, it has to do with how people perceive grind, not about some general definition that you can test GW2 factually on. Fact is that GW2 is by many known for its grind, terms like Grind Wars 2 don’t come out of nowhere.

In fact it’s a little strange that you would want to dismiss it because it’s about personal opinions. It’s the entertainment industry, how people perceive your product is what’s it’s all about. It’s not a tool that works or does not work, it’s a toy you want people to like (perceive positive).
It’s the same as making a movie and then when you get a lot of negative feedback but you dismiss that, not taking that feedback into consideration when making your sequel movie because ‘it are just opinions’ seems like the recipe for failure of your sequel.

pdavis.8031:

Gazille.7381:

This game level system is a grind. bring back normal quest.

Doing quests is a grind. Let us have instant level 80s with full traits and BiS gear from creation.

If you do quest just to grind some currency (like XP) to then get what you want (a higher level) then is for sure is grinding.

If you do a quest for a specific reward that quest drops it’s not grinding.

Also when taking all definitions of grind into consideration.

you dont have to grind at all. you choose to do that you silly magoo. as far as silverwaste goes be happy that anet is giving you an alternative chance to getting into the beta. everyone just wants everything to be given to them these days.. zombies i say.

Devata.6589:

“One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional.”
Sure, you could also put it like this. Then the grind for cosmetics would still be the same as the other types of grind. Both being ‘required’. I don’t really care if you consider it required or not, my point was that there basically are the same. Both not required or both required is not the point. If it’s bad is personal.

I think you’re mistaken the statement required grind with required reward

I am not saying you have to give up on a reward just because it is a cosmetic I am just saying you dont have to grind for it (even though of course you could should you choose to)

Lets take vision of the mists that takes 250 ecto as an example. you could buy the ecto for 32s each thats 80g more or less. You could hardcore farm silverwastes and for you that might mean a few hours of grind. Or I could simply just play my game, do what I want. depending on what you do you choose to do you’ll get a few rares a day… lets say an average of 3. I could sell those which will likely give me enough to buy 4 ecto or I can salvage them which depending on my luck will give me an average of 2-5 ecto. Just with that I can get my reward in 2 – 5 months of 0 grind. (of course you could also cut this down further if you use some of the other stuff you earn you dont have to limit yourself to rares).

But in other MMOs that have mandatory grind I dont have that luxury. In MMOs that for example limit content access behind gear score, or armor tier etcs.. I cannot afford to take it easy. Taking 5 months to get a single piece of gear would mean that by the time I am done getting my gear score I would be 2 – 4 releases behind being cut unable to play with my friends anymore.

Devata.6589:

“as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck.”
And my primary goal might be getting some cosmetics (collecting them is ‘playing the game’ for me) while your primary goal might be doing the highest level raids.

Even here there is a big difference. While I am taking it easy I am still progressing towards my cosmetic of choice. Taking a break from the grind isnt really stopping for pursuiting my goal its just making it take a little longer. But in the case of mandatory grind, If I need tier 10 super duper armor of doom that only drops from the raid of champions in order to access the new zone and I take a break from raiding I am not progressing an inch. whats more I am doomed to play the same old content even if the devs might be busy pumping out new stuff every single day (yeah they’re that good) ! The more time I refuse to grind the worst it gets for me.

Simply speaking grind isnt optional in that you can just simply forget about the reward because you dont need it. grind is optional because you can go about in different ways to get your reward and also above all cause that reward is not crucial for anything. So getting in 5 hours or 5 months isnt really any different.. well perhaps 5 months might even be considered a little better since it increases the longevity of the game because if what you want is to go after cosmetics what happens after you acquire all those that you want?

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!

By Colin Johanson June 19th, 2012

Seeing this number going up slowly is way more boring then always having the rush of ’’will it drop". With a currency like tokens you know from the start how many runs you will need (what is boring) while with the RNG it might drop the first time but you can also be unlucky and take longer.
However, based on the drop-rate the average number of runs you need to do for it to drop can be exactly the same as the numbers of runs you need to do to get the tokens.

So in number of runs it would not have to be different but the currency system is the boring option where the RNG is the more trilling ‘will it drop rush’ option.

And why would some currency like tokens that are useless until I have a specific number of them, feel rewarded? Is doesn’t. Not to me at least. It’s basically junk until you have enough of it.

Maybe the fact that they think the currency / token system is better is then the biggest flaw in their design philosophy if it comes to grind ans that is what makes everything such a boring grind.

Seeing the number go up steadily is the more interesting and fulfilling option while hoping for a random number generator to decide to favor you is a boring and unfulfilling option.

I find the rush of ‘will it drop’ way more fulfilling. This currency model is exactly what makes everything such a boring grind. In fact, it might be (part of) the core of the grind problem in this game. The ‘random generator’ is not completely random. There is a specific drop-rate and based on that your average number of runs to get what you want can be the same as using the token system.

You act here as if the RNG system is some 100% random system that gives you completely no indication of time/ runs but that you are completely depended of the RNG gods. It does not work that way, you don’t have to wait for a favor ,RNG gods don’t exist.. it’s just math.

So that number is always going up, every run you’re mathematically chance
it drops increases. That’s the up going number, while also having the rush of ‘will it drop this time’.

Devata.6589:

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!

By Colin Johanson June 19th, 2012

Seeing this number going up slowly is way more boring then always having the rush of ’’will it drop". With a currency like tokens you know from the start how many runs you will need (what is boring) while with the RNG it might drop the first time but you can also be unlucky and take longer.
However, based on the drop-rate the average number of runs you need to do for it to drop can be exactly the same as the numbers of runs you need to do to get the tokens.

So in number of runs it would not have to be different but the currency system is the boring option where the RNG is the more trilling ‘will it drop rush’ option.

And why would some currency like tokens that are useless until I have a specific number of them, feel rewarded? Is doesn’t. Not to me at least. It’s basically junk until you have enough of it.

Maybe the fact that they think the currency / token system is better is then the biggest flaw in their design philosophy if it comes to grind ans that is what makes everything such a boring grind.

Seeing the number go up steadily is the more interesting and fulfilling option while hoping for a random number generator to decide to favor you is a boring and unfulfilling option.

I find the rush of ‘will it drop’ way more fulfilling. This currency model is exactly what makes everything such a boring grind. And the ‘random generator’ is not completely random. There is a specific drop-rate and based on that your average number of runs to get what you want can be the same as using the token system.

You act here as if the RNG system is some 100% random system that gives you completely no indication of time/ runs but that you are completely depended from the RNG gods. Well RNG gods don’t exist.. it’s just math.

So that number is always going up, every run you’re mathematically chance
it drops increases. That’s the up going number, while also having the rush of ‘will it drop this time’.

Your chance of getting the drop is the same every time. If it is .0001% the first time it is .0001% the thousandth time.

Lemuria.3195:

Astralporing.1957:

Removing grind by redefining it to not be called grind. Pure genius.
I guess since we solved that problem, people will stop complaining since they won’t be grinding anymo…
oh wait.

“So far I’ve not heard one compelling argument that shows Guild Wars could be considered a ‘grind’. The only cited examples are all optional extras which won’t interest every player and are designed to be rare.”

There is nothing every players want. With your logic you could make rare gear a grind and then say not everybody needs of want it because you would only need it for dungeons and not everybody is interested in dungeons.

Yes it’s all about optional thing just as the game itself. That does not mean it’s not a boring grind if you do want to hunt down those optional things.

“See, here’s the thing. Rarity makes these things more valuable.”
And being able to get a eward by spending real money or doing brainless takes devalues items.

you can have way better ways of making an item rare while not having the same grind as in GW2.

If for example a item has a more doable drop-rate (low enough to not feel as a boring grind) but it only drops form one specific place then it will be rare. If you make an item drop from everything (or the currency to buy the item) you will need a way lower drop-rate to get the same rarety.

If item x drop from 1 place with a 1/100 drop-rate that gives it a specific rarety. If you make it drop from 2 places then you would need a 1/200 droprate to get the same rarety.

So the more places it drops from, the more grindy you need to make your game simply to hold the same rarety for the item.

And then there are other options like putting an item behind challeging content. the harder the content the more rare the item will be.

“So far I’ve not heard one compelling argument that shows Guild Wars could be considered a ‘grind’. The only cited examples are all optional extras which won’t interest every player and are designed to be rare.”

There is nothing every players want. With your logic you could make rare gear a grind and then say not everybody needs or want it because you would only need it for dungeons and not everybody is interested in dungeons. And so it would not be a grind.

Yes it’s all about optional things just as the game itself. That does not mean it’s not a boring grind if you do want to hunt down those optional things. And hunting down such items is the preferred game-play for many MMO-players in general and seeing as how GW2 was knows as casual and focused on cosmetics you can assume that was especially true for the GW2 player base. I say ‘was’ because that group (many of them) has most likely left by now.

“See, here’s the thing. Rarity makes these things more valuable.”
Yes and being able to get a reward by spending real money or doing brainless tasks devalues items.

You can have way better ways of making an item rare while not having the same grind as in GW2.

If for example an item has a more doable drop-rate (low enough to not feel as a boring grind) but it only drops form one specific place then it can also be rare. If you make an item drop from everything (or the currency to buy the item) you will need a way lower drop-rate to get the same rarity and you increase the grind.

If item x drop from 1 place with a 1/100 drop-rate that gives it a specific rarity (depending on some factors like how many people do that content, is it content people grind anyway and so on). If you make it drop from 2 places then you would need a 1/200 drop rate to get the same rarity.

So the more places it drops from, the more grindy you need to make your game simply to hold the same rarity for the item.

Then there are other options like putting an item behind challenging content. the harder the content the more rare the item will be.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

“One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional.”
Sure, you could also put it like this. Then the grind for cosmetics would still be the same as the other types of grind. Both being ‘required’. I don’t really care if you consider it required or not, my point was that there basically are the same. Both not required or both required is not the point. If it’s bad is personal.

I think you’re mistaken the statement required grind with required reward

I am not saying you have to give up on a reward just because it is a cosmetic I am just saying you dont have to grind for it (even though of course you could should you choose to)

Lets take vision of the mists that takes 250 ecto as an example. you could buy the ecto for 32s each thats 80g more or less. You could hardcore farm silverwastes and for you that might mean a few hours of grind. Or I could simply just play my game, do what I want. depending on what you do you choose to do you’ll get a few rares a day… lets say an average of 3. I could sell those which will likely give me enough to buy 4 ecto or I can salvage them which depending on my luck will give me an average of 2-5 ecto. Just with that I can get my reward in 2 – 5 months of 0 grind. (of course you could also cut this down further if you use some of the other stuff you earn you dont have to limit yourself to rares).

But in other MMOs that have mandatory grind I dont have that luxury. In MMOs that for example limit content access behind gear score, or armor tier etcs.. I cannot afford to take it easy. Taking 5 months to get a single piece of gear would mean that by the time I am done getting my gear score I would be 2 – 4 releases behind being cut unable to play with my friends anymore.

Devata.6589:

“as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck.”
And my primary goal might be getting some cosmetics (collecting them is ‘playing the game’ for me) while your primary goal might be doing the highest level raids.

Even here there is a big difference. While I am taking it easy I am still progressing towards my cosmetic of choice. Taking a break from the grind isnt really stopping for pursuiting my goal its just making it take a little longer. But in the case of mandatory grind, If I need tier 10 super duper armor of doom that only drops from the raid of champions in order to access the new zone and I take a break from raiding I am not progressing an inch. whats more I am doomed to play the same old content even if the devs might be busy pumping out new stuff every single day (yeah they’re that good) ! The more time I refuse to grind the worst it gets for me.

Simply speaking grind isnt optional in that you can just simply forget about the reward because you dont need it. grind is optional because you can go about in different ways to get your reward and also above all cause that reward is not crucial for anything. So getting in 5 hours or 5 months isnt really any different.. well perhaps 5 months might even be considered a little better since it increases the longevity of the game because if what you want is to go after cosmetics what happens after you acquire all those that you want?

With the first part you completely dismiss the fact that hunting down such items is the preferred game-play for many.. that is for them ‘playing the game’ however, that must then not be a boring grind.

There is no item you ‘need’ there is no grinding you ‘need’. There are only goals and those goals might have challenging content to unlock those goals or have a never ending boring grind.

“While I am taking it easy I am still progressing towards my cosmetic of choice.” Also this is purely a theoretically truth. If you would play like this (while again, completely dismissing that hunting down items is the preferred game-play for many) you would hopelessly run behind. New items you might also like get added every month. So collecting is them already completely out of the question. But even only going for the ones you prefer the most will be a unrealistic task, if you add an item to your list of ‘things you want’ once every two month you would only run more and more behind. Not to mention that if a goal is to far away people also lost intrest.

In you first example of how you talk about getting an item without grinding you come to 2 – 5 months. So that would be 3,5 months on average. So if you started to collect such items at release you would soon (3 years later) be able to get your 10th item. (And personally I do not get 3 rares a day but that’s also because I do not play a lot at the moment. Hoping for better times with HoT)

Theoretically it’s all nice, currency

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!

By Colin Johanson June 19th, 2012

Seeing this number going up slowly is way more boring then always having the rush of ’’will it drop". With a currency like tokens you know from the start how many runs you will need (what is boring) while with the RNG it might drop the first time but you can also be unlucky and take longer.
However, based on the drop-rate the average number of runs you need to do for it to drop can be exactly the same as the numbers of runs you need to do to get the tokens.

So in number of runs it would not have to be different but the currency system is the boring option where the RNG is the more trilling ‘will it drop rush’ option.

And why would some currency like tokens that are useless until I have a specific number of them, feel rewarded? Is doesn’t. Not to me at least. It’s basically junk until you have enough of it.

Maybe the fact that they think the currency / token system is better is then the biggest flaw in their design philosophy if it comes to grind ans that is what makes everything such a boring grind.

Seeing the number go up steadily is the more interesting and fulfilling option while hoping for a random number generator to decide to favor you is a boring and unfulfilling option.

I find the rush of ‘will it drop’ way more fulfilling. This currency model is exactly what makes everything such a boring grind. And the ‘random generator’ is not completely random. There is a specific drop-rate and based on that your average number of runs to get what you want can be the same as using the token system.

You act here as if the RNG system is some 100% random system that gives you completely no indication of time/ runs but that you are completely depended from the RNG gods. Well RNG gods don’t exist.. it’s just math.

So that number is always going up, every run you’re mathematically chance
it drops increases. That’s the up going number, while also having the rush of ‘will it drop this time’.

Your chance of getting the drop is the same every time. If it is .0001% the first time it is .0001% the thousandth time.

Yeah but when you have done it a second time your overall chance it would have dropped is 0,0019999% and on your 3th run you overall chance is 0,000299970001% and so on. But indeed, every run by itself stays the same.

Astralporing.1957:

Kal Spiro.9745:

None of which is actually grinding, it’s all just farming. Now all you whipper snappers git off mah lawn.

Removing grind by redefining it to not be called grind. Pure genius.
I guess since we solved that problem, people will stop complaining since they won’t be grinding anymo…
oh wait.

Um, no? You’re the ones redefining farming to be grind because you happen to be doing the same thing twice. That’s not what a grind is. If you had to actually deal with a real grind you’d probably kill yourselves.

Devata.6589:

pdavis.8031:

Gazille.7381:

This game level system is a grind. bring back normal quest.

Doing quests is a grind. Let us have instant level 80s with full traits and BiS gear from creation.

If you do quest just to grind some currency (like XP) to then get what you want (a higher level) then is for sure is grinding.

If you do a quest for a specific reward that quest drops it’s not grinding.

Also when taking all definitions of grind into consideration.

If I want the reward at the end but I find the particular quest chain boring as hell then yes it’s a grind as I have to force myself to play one specific thing to get the thing I want.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Astralporing.1957:

Kal Spiro.9745:

None of which is actually grinding, it’s all just farming. Now all you whipper snappers git off mah lawn.

Removing grind by redefining it to not be called grind. Pure genius.
I guess since we solved that problem, people will stop complaining since they won’t be grinding anymo…
oh wait.

Um, no? You’re the ones redefining farming to be grind because you happen to be doing the same thing twice. That’s not what a grind is. If you had to actually deal with a real grind you’d probably kill yourselves.

As someone who has dealt with real grinds in EQ and DAoC and Ye Olde WoW and so on, I have to say that GW2 does on occasions veer into grind territory.

It’s not EQ’s 10000 bone chips quest, nor is it some of early WoW’s rep grinds, but there is a lot of (optional) grind in GW2 (and some semi-optional). Just because something is kind of optional doesn’t mean it’s totally not a grind.

I would say, anyway.

phys.7689:

the point they were making is the definition of grind is an argument about the accepted meaning of words.

But what players are saying regardless of the meaning of the word is that when they try to play the game normally, it feels like they have to repeat content for long periods of time to try to make what they consider to be progress.

now, you can call that a different word if you want, but point is to many players how the game seems to promote them to play, is what they would call a grind.

so the question is, is that type of feeling they hope the game generates.

I was going to yell at you for being reasonable, but then I saw it was you so it made sense.

I don’t know how other people play the game. I can’t even guess, I’m not other people. But I really get the feeling other people are playing the game wrong. I just do my own things. If I want to do a thing, I do it. I jump around a lot. I have at least one of every class. I don’t seek rewards, I seek entertainment. Getting stuff is not the purpose of the game, and as such isn’t what I’m playing for.

I have every skill. I am full exotic, I have mostly ascended jewelry and a backpack. I have a build that works well for me in anything I want to do. I have participated in nearly every piece of content. I have even carried a group that couldn’t complete a fractal, which felt pretty good, if frustrating. I don’t do any of this on some mad dash for progression.

I do it for the entertainment of the game itself. The rewards are not the game. The rewards are just filler. I really feel like this is how the Devs intended the game to work. It makes sense to me because it works so well for me. I’m still having as much fun as I was in beta and I don’t see that changing any time soon. I have some goals. There are things I’m planning, like ascended gear, but I’m not in a rush. I don’t need it right now. It’ll happen when it happens. That’s the philosophy I used when I worked toward my quiver and it’s worked just fine for me all this time.

That’s why this isn’t a grind for me. I’m not going the same thing over and over because I need to get a thing right now. I’m just playing the game, and the things I want will come to me in time just as a result of that.

I beat players with ascended armor in WVW with my meager Exotics.

When I suddenly have the materials I need as a result of playing the game, I will put them into ascended armor as a material sink.

Not needed. Don’t care~

Protip: Forcing yourself to not have fun in a game so you can get the best X in the game by your perception is not a grind. It’s you sucking the fun out of your life.

Quit it. Because when you suck the fun out of your life and have your brand new shiny as a result of churning through all the content, then you suck the fun out of everyone elses life by complaining that there’s nothing to do.

Nike.2631:

Astralporing.1957:

It is indeed explicit. They don’t consider BiS to be optional, and dor them BiS means Ascended.

So, you were saying?

You may be surprised to discover there are directly contradictory quotes available discussing the design process underlying the Ascended tier. Quotes backed up by this trifling little thing I like to call OBSERVABLE REALITY. I’ll see if I can find it for you .

A good starting place is here – while it take a little reading between the lines, when you “bridge a gap” between something unexpectedly quick and soul crushingly long, that bridge is not just more of the unexpectedly quick. I’ll keep looking for the exact quote I’m thinking of though.

The quote i brought up is a recent one. The one you did is over 2 years old – and we already know the backlash they got then has caused them to revise some of those original plans for ascended.
So, at best you are comparing what they wanted ascended to be with what they consider them now. At least officially, because i agree, that the practice doesn’t support what they are claiming (but then, Anet speaking one thing and doing the other is the very reason for this discussion).

phys.7689:

Astralporing.1957:

Removing grind by redefining it to not be called grind. Pure genius.
I guess since we solved that problem, people will stop complaining since they won’t be grinding anymo…
oh wait.

Lemuria.3195:

I fail to see how people have difficulty understanding such simple definitions. A grind is something you have to get through, farming is always optional. You’re not forced to grind for anything in this game, everything is pretty much given to you either as a reward for levelling or rewards for completing tasks.

So far I’ve not heard one compelling argument that shows Guild Wars could be considered a ‘grind’. The only cited examples are all optional extras which won’t interest every player and are designed to be rare.

See, here’s the thing. Rarity makes these things more valuable. If everyone could get them easily, they’d be less special and therefore less appealing. Their appeal essentially lies in being difficult to obtain. Just look at Guild Wars classic. Black dye was exceptionally rare, therefore people often clad themselves entirely in black. Not for aesthetics, but as a show of wealth because they COULD.

You want the best gear? You can get it doing just about any major content. Bloodstone dust drops like rain, dragonite ore can be gained from boss fights, empyrean from events. There you go, craft your own ascended gear.

You want the best looking gear? Well, you’ll have to work a bit longer for those rare items and do a bit of farming. It won’t make you any more powerful than your peers, but you’ll stand out because fewer people have it.

Is this really such a difficult concept to understand?

the point they were making is the definition of grind is an argument about the accepted meaning of words.

But what players are saying regardless of the meaning of the word is that when they try to play the game normally, it feels like they have to repeat content for long periods of time to try to make what they consider to be progress.

now, you can call that a different word if you want, but point is to many players how the game seems to promote them to play, is what they would call a grind.

so the question is, is that type of feeling they hope the game generates.

Yes, that’s exactly what i meant. We can argue all night long about the dictionary definitions of the word, but deciding one way or another doesn’t affect the core problem in the slightest. At best it may allow some people to attempt to ignore it by pretending it doesn’t exist.
Unfortunately, not looking at things will not make them disappear. Neither will calling them by different names.

Most MMOs lock desirable rewards (skins, armor, minis, weapons, etc.) behind activities that are both time-consuming and repetitive. This is how they keep people “busy” and they all do it. For most people, time-consuming and repetitive equals grind. In this particular game, making money is not as easy as in many other games, so even earning gold to buy what you want can feel like a grind.

Used to irritate me until I accepted that all MMOs are the same in this. They simply have different styles of implementing their grind.

I personaly don’t find GW2 very grindy. Exotic are really easy to get and you don’t need more to be able to complete any aspect of the game.
Runes and sigils can be a little longer to get, but there are a lot of ways to make gold now.

In fact, my only regret about GW2 is that you can’t really farm mats for rare exotics or legendaries. I mean, yes you can farm mats, but farming gold is a lot faster. For example, when I made my Immobulus, I had to buy 248 out of 250 giant eyes to make it because of their horrible drop rate.
I really enjoy collecting mats, opening bags and chests and get here and there a T6 mat or a lodestone. Buying it on TP is just meh. I’m still working on my first legendary, mostly because I don’t feel any accomplishement doing it. Just an endless gold farming.

Devata.6589:

If for example an item has a more doable drop-rate (low enough to not feel as a boring grind) but it only drops form one specific place then it can also be rare. If you make an item drop from everything (or the currency to buy the item) you will need a way lower drop-rate to get the same rarity and you increase the grind.

If item x drop from 1 place with a 1/100 drop-rate that gives it a specific rarity (depending on some factors like how many people do that content, is it content people grind anyway and so on). If you make it drop from 2 places then you would need a 1/200 drop rate to get the same rarity.

So the more places it drops from, the more grindy you need to make your game simply to hold the same rarity for the item.

Then there are other options like putting an item behind challenging content. the harder the content the more rare the item will be.

GW2 has each of the drop ideas you mentioned in it.

The rare drop off specific places/hard content can be applied to Tequatl’s Hoard and Pile of Regurgitated Armor. The armor contained in the Pile of Regurgitated Armor is among the rarest skins in the game because of this fact.

Fractal skins have higher droprates at higher fractal levels. so that is clearly hard content increases your chances.

They have also due to player feedback began putting items behind a series of specific tasks to acquire the item straight off. They do this in the form of collections (Luminescent Armor armor was a trial run of the Precursor Quests in Hot) and specific crafting chains (Mawdrey).

The main point behind most of the drop system is that it eliminates required playstyles. Since gold can be acquired from literally every way of playing the game (including just chatting in town due to daily login rewards) after some amount of time playing you will eventually be able to get the skin that you want. There is no need to play a specific way in order to get it. Choosing to take the path of least resistance even if that playstyle is boring or repetitive to you to try and get the desired skin as fast as possible is entirely on you.

Now I must go back to my daily grind. The one that keeps my family sheltered, clothed and fed. The only grind worth doing.

Astralporing.1957:

The quote i brought up is a recent one.

Its also, by looking at how the game actually works, marketing spin. Colin does that sometimes . The reality is it was designed and implemented to be a massive time/money sink (still looking for the quote where they put it in almost those exact terms) and its been precisely that.

The one you did is over 2 years old – and we already know the backlash they got then has caused them to revise some of those original plans for ascended.

((snort)) Revised what, exactly? They bulled ahead with pretty much exactly what they said they were doing for the reasons they said they were doing it: because people were reaching terminal gearing in a fraction of the expected time, faced with nothing left to do progression-wise other than the omega-grind that is legendaries, getting bored/frustrated with the enormous gap, and leaving the game.

Those reasons haven’t changed. The path of acquisition hasn’t changed either. And its not going to until the reasons change no matter who says what. The best we’ve managed in two-&-a-half years is to get pink items classed as account bound instead of soul bound so at least we can kinda juggle them amongst our alts.

If you want to look at the destiny of trying to get them to change the game because they said something that’s simply not the case in practice, look up every “Manifesto” thread ever. If you want to get something to change show why it should for the benefit of the game’s health. The lever you’re using now (“but you said…”) is far too short for the task you’re putting it to.

During the early days of this game wasn’t it known that there would be grind for skins?

pdavis.8031:

Gazille.7381:

This game level system is a grind. bring back normal quest.

Doing quests is a grind. Let us have instant level 80s with full traits and BiS gear from creation.

Apparently many of you missed my tone. (which is basically my fault for not including the /sarcasm tag).
I was being sarcastic. I certainly don’t think that questiong, nor leveling, is a grind. By some peoples definition, doing anything more than exactly once is and can be considered a grind (Personally I think that they are just using that to be argumentative).

But I still maintain that things will seem like a grind only if you don’t enjoy doing them. Killing a bunch of monsters for mats some people call enjoyable, or at least don’t mind. They refer to this as farming. Some people absolutely hate it and it feels like a chore. Those people call it grinding. It’s exactly the same thing.
So we get into these discussions where one group doesn’t like doing certain activities, or doing the things that are needed to get what they want, so for them it is a grind, and thus everything in the game can be viewed as grindy.The other group enjoys doing various activities, and enjoy doing those things needed to get what they want, and for them it’s not a grind, or even a farm. It’s playing and enjoying the game.
Both parties are doing the exact same thing, but the difference is that one group enjoys it and the other doesn’t.

So how to fix this? Either the “grindy” crowd eithers changes their minds, and instead of focusing on drop rates, and costs, and gold per hour, just relax and play the game, or leave. The no grindy crowd is happy, they don’t mind, and are having fun. But Anet doesn’t need to change anything about the game, mechanics, drop rates, or otherwise, to cater to a group of people that are unhappy no matter what they do.

Devata.6589:

Yeah but when you have done it a second time your overall chance it would have dropped is 0,0019999% and on your 3th run you overall chance is 0,000299970001% and so on. But indeed, every run by itself stays the same.

You’re contradicting yourself. The odds for the occurrence of a random event do not improve across multiple tries.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

Yeah but when you have done it a second time your overall chance it would have dropped is 0,0019999% and on your 3th run you overall chance is 0,000299970001% and so on. But indeed, every run by itself stays the same.

You’re contradicting yourself. The odds for the occurrence of a random event do not improve across multiple tries.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

i think they are talking about your chances before the attempt

the chance of getting a red marble out of a 6 color bag goes up with more attempts before you try, but once you fail, the probablity collapses.

IE chance of getting red with 2 attempts, before you try isnt 1/6, but each time you try, its 1/6.
because the past doesnt effect the future.
also note, it is never guaranteed.

Nike.2631:

((snort)) Revised what, exactly?

They planned further gear tiers and continued stat progression originally, as well as expanding agony-like mechanics to other parts of the game. Both ideas got pretty much killed by now, fortunately.

Nike.2631:

Astralporing.1957:

The quote i brought up is a recent one.

Its also, by looking at how the game actually works, marketing spin. Colin does that sometimes . The reality is it was designed and implemented to be a massive time/money sink (still looking for the quote where they put it in almost those exact terms) and its been precisely that.

Yes, i do realize that. If you happen to notice, the fact that Anet’s “no grind philosophy” is just a marketing spin with no relation to the game is the reason behind this thread. I’m simply pointing out what Anet devs themselves claim that philosophy is. The fact that it’s not what is really happening should be rather obvious, but it seems some people in this thread do need help in seeing that.

AdaephonDelat.3890:

Devata.6589:

pdavis.8031:

Gazille.7381:

This game level system is a grind. bring back normal quest.

Doing quests is a grind. Let us have instant level 80s with full traits and BiS gear from creation.

If you do quest just to grind some currency (like XP) to then get what you want (a higher level) then is for sure is grinding.

If you do a quest for a specific reward that quest drops it’s not grinding.

Also when taking all definitions of grind into consideration.

If I want the reward at the end but I find the particular quest chain boring as hell then yes it’s a grind as I have to force myself to play one specific thing to get the thing I want.

With all the definition used for grind there is at least one common denominator and that is repetition. Now you simply define anything you don’t like as grind. Well thats fine, but then you won’t add anything to this discussion I’m afraid, I will also not go into this subject of the definition of grind with you any further. Anybody reading can make up their on mind on that matter. You are really just fooling yourself here, nobody else.

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

OH yeah… the same people, the same arguments. Please Anet, don’t change how your reward system works. If I wanted to experience low chance loot drops from mobs in zerg raids, I WOULDN’T be playing GW2. I’m not alone.

“If I wanted to experience low chance loot drops from mobs in zerg raids, I WOULDN’T be playing GW2.”
This is exactly what GW2 gives you.. with the exception of the word ‘raid’. But then again, nobody here asked for raids.

" I WOULDN’T be playing GW2. " Well, many people AREN’T playing GW2 because of this.

That’s not true at all. I get loot drops from zerg raids all the time, and they aren’t low chance. In fact, they are 100% chance. I almost know exactly what quality of loot I’m going to get doing a raid.

That’s OK, you twist what people say however you want to convince yourself everyone agrees with you. Luckily, most of us are smart enough to know what we mean when we type something.

Without auto generated content or player driven content, you can never have a “no grind” game. Anything that is repetitive will become a grind, regardless of what it is.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I beat players with ascended armor in WVW with my meager Exotics.

When I suddenly have the materials I need as a result of playing the game, I will put them into ascended armor as a material sink.

Not needed. Don’t care~

Protip: Forcing yourself to not have fun in a game so you can get the best X in the game by your perception is not a grind. It’s you sucking the fun out of your life.

Quit it. Because when you suck the fun out of your life and have your brand new shiny as a result of churning through all the content, then you suck the fun out of everyone elses life by complaining that there’s nothing to do.

It’s however the way the game is designed that makes hunting down those items a boring grind, or interesting content. So there is no need for this to suck the fun out of the game… it could be the fun of the game. But your right, in GW2 doing this does suck the fun out of the game. So thats the problem.

Andred.1087:

Broken Arietta.4631:

So fed up of this.

Then… stop?

They once said that this game would change the face of the PC MMO Genre, and it certainly did.

It made developers become lackadaisical about content by increasing the grind in their games as if this level of grind and RNG were normal and… (have several examples two of which are Archeage and STO)

It made people become complacent about the grind as if these levels we’re seeing now were ever the norm.

It’s even affecting the elephant in the room who switched the direction of their progression with their most recent expansion to compete.

Companies follow the trends of other companies all of these people who are apologists who keep using the argument that “it’s okay because everyone else is doing it” about a game that was supposedly supposed to be different in all aspects of the PC MMO Genre aren’t really helping the PC MMO market.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata i will say it once again and they i will target you hard you in 3 days , before the thread closed
(like the other 2 that you bossed around + was filled with nonsense like here + was closed)

Let us here the majority and not the nonsense of Devata

The onwer of the threads hates the RNG nature of things … Where different locations drops different things
Take your ‘’items must be droped ingame and no in the cashshop’’ mentality and walk away slowly or go back in WoW …

3 days …

If you a see a single person (like you ) that systematicaylly attack others players and say there is not grind , you can bicker him ….

3 days ….

The only person always trying to attack a single person (without really any arguments) is you.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Most MMOs lock desirable rewards (skins, armor, minis, weapons, etc.) behind activities that are both time-consuming and repetitive. This is how they keep people “busy” and they all do it. For most people, time-consuming and repetitive equals grind. In this particular game, making money is not as easy as in many other games, so even earning gold to buy what you want can feel like a grind.

Used to irritate me until I accepted that all MMOs are the same in this. They simply have different styles of implementing their grind.

Some better then others.

Biggest problem here is that for most items you can’t work directly towards them but there is always the need to grind for gold. So you are basically always grinding for the same (while you could do that in multiple ways) to buy what you want.

Doing it this way is what makes it this never ending boring grind in stead of multiple smaller farms / grinds that usually also keep interesting because you are doing different task / content all the time. Also it pushes people to grind for gold in the fastest way, what is their own choice, but at the same time then also punishes other people for using another method, what is not their choice, and lastly it means you could get the same reward by doing some brainless task over and over again and get the same reward as somebody who does challenging content, meaning the item has nearly no value from a game perspective.

That is why this implementation is so bad and people complain so much about the grind.

What I keep finding interesting in these threads is how there is always the group trying to defeat the grind, not even willing to accept other people find the game grindy.

(not saying it might not be grindy for you.. depending on your preferred game-play the game does not have to be grindy. If you like WvW I completely see how the game is not grindy for you)

But really, if you look in GW2, at least half of the people are doing nothing else then grinding. Being it dry-top today and silver-waste tomorrow (usually based what is the most rewarding at the time). They do a dungeon for the gold or kill a champion for the gold.

People aren’t blind are they? Or is this one of these ‘love makes blind’ cases? There simply is no denying there is a lot of grinding going on in this game. Love it or hate it but there simply is no denying this, yet people keep trying to do so.

So who are you then fooling? Mainly yourself.

Anyone else remember the good old days where to get the best weapon/armor in a game you did a series of trading quests and an occasional difficult secret dungeon?

Nausicca.6038:

I personaly don’t find GW2 very grindy. Exotic are really easy to get and you don’t need more to be able to complete any aspect of the game.
Runes and sigils can be a little longer to get, but there are a lot of ways to make gold now.

In fact, my only regret about GW2 is that you can’t really farm mats for rare exotics or legendaries. I mean, yes you can farm mats, but farming gold is a lot faster. For example, when I made my Immobulus, I had to buy 248 out of 250 giant eyes to make it because of their horrible drop rate.
I really enjoy collecting mats, opening bags and chests and get here and there a T6 mat or a lodestone. Buying it on TP is just meh. I’m still working on my first legendary, mostly because I don’t feel any accomplishement doing it. Just an endless gold farming.

“Just an endless gold farming.” That is exactly the grind I talk about. And not only for mats but also for 90% of the cosmetics this is the case.

gaspara.4079:

Devata.6589:

If for example an item has a more doable drop-rate (low enough to not feel as a boring grind) but it only drops form one specific place then it can also be rare. If you make an item drop from everything (or the currency to buy the item) you will need a way lower drop-rate to get the same rarity and you increase the grind.

If item x drop from 1 place with a 1/100 drop-rate that gives it a specific rarity (depending on some factors like how many people do that content, is it content people grind anyway and so on). If you make it drop from 2 places then you would need a 1/200 drop rate to get the same rarity.

So the more places it drops from, the more grindy you need to make your game simply to hold the same rarity for the item.

Then there are other options like putting an item behind challenging content. the harder the content the more rare the item will be.

GW2 has each of the drop ideas you mentioned in it.

The rare drop off specific places/hard content can be applied to Tequatl’s Hoard and Pile of Regurgitated Armor. The armor contained in the Pile of Regurgitated Armor is among the rarest skins in the game because of this fact.

Fractal skins have higher droprates at higher fractal levels. so that is clearly hard content increases your chances.

They have also due to player feedback began putting items behind a series of specific tasks to acquire the item straight off. They do this in the form of collections (Luminescent Armor armor was a trial run of the Precursor Quests in Hot) and specific crafting chains (Mawdrey).

The main point behind most of the drop system is that it eliminates required playstyles. Since gold can be acquired from literally every way of playing the game (including just chatting in town due to daily login rewards) after some amount of time playing you will eventually be able to get the skin that you want. There is no need to play a specific way in order to get it. Choosing to take the path of least resistance even if that playstyle is boring or repetitive to you to try and get the desired skin as fast as possible is entirely on you.

Now I must go back to my daily grind. The one that keeps my family sheltered, clothed and fed. The only grind worth doing.

Yes it does. I always talk about how 90% of the items are a boring grind. (where 90% should not be taken literally) Part of the other 10% is implemented well. I also use Liadri multiple times as a good example, so I never denied that all items where implemented badly.

Sadly some of the ‘better’ implementations are at the same time also ruined again by the grindy nature of the game. For examples the rare items dropping from world-bosses. Basically they are the better way of implementing rewards, the only problem is that those bosses get grinded for gold so to keep the items a little rare drop-rates need to be extreme while simply because so many people do them the TP still gets flooded with them anyway. Making grinding gold still the only real viable option to get those skins.

But yes, there are items implemented well in the game. Never denied that. However if you have 90% makes it a grind the items implemented in a good way are not going to safe the day. A big problem here is that they want to make money with the cash-shop (in stead of with expansions like in GW2) meaning they put many items in the cash-shop and those items are by nature the ‘bad’ implementation as they are always only being this gold-grind, from a game perspective. (buying them with real money is not playing a game)

About the option to play any content and still being able to get them. While it also devaluates the item they could simply have the same result by not making the items account-bound but having them all implemented in this way. Personally I think it’s fine, in fact it’s even good if many rewards are locked behind specific content, but if they want to make most items not account bound I would be fine with it as well. It would still give you a better experience then we have now and leave room to get it by playing other content as well.

Devata.6589:

There simply is no denying there is a lot of grinding going on in this game.

Can’t deny that people are dumb enough to subject themselves to it when they don’t need to.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

Yeah but when you have done it a second time your overall chance it would have dropped is 0,0019999% and on your 3th run you overall chance is 0,000299970001% and so on. But indeed, every run by itself stays the same.

You’re contradicting yourself. The odds for the occurrence of a random event do not improve across multiple tries.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

This is just simple math and the problem here is the explanation. Every time you have the same chance, that is true. But the chance you have something in 5 tries (with all the same chances) is bigger.

Your wiki page does say the following “The gambler’s fallacy is the false belief that a random process becomes less random, and more predictable, as it is repeated”.

That is true when looking at it from a single try. My next try is as big as my following, and the number of tries does not influence that.

However, if you have done it a lot of times, chances are bigger that one of those tries had a positive outcome.

That in fact does mean a higher number makes something less random. The whole since is based around this. If you would do a scientific paper where you use peoples feedback as part of your ‘investigation’ you will need enough people for your information to be reliable. Meaning ‘less random’ and there is software that helps you determine if your group is reliable enough. If you would only interview 2 people it would never be considered reliable. This is related to this the same chance math.

Just for the record, the wiki page does not even deny what I am saying here. It says that people believe that if they gamble on number 1 out of 10 and lose, the next try they should gamble on 1 again because now the chance is bigger that 1 will ‘drop’. That is indeed false. It does not matter on what of the 10 number they gamle, there is no difference. They can gamble on whatever they want and the chance it will be the correct number still is the same. However, having gambled 10 times increased there change of having had it right at least once (no matter what number it was) over having only gambled once. That last part is what I talked about.

So far for the lesson on math, guess it’s sort of relevant for the subject, now back tot he topic.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

OH yeah… the same people, the same arguments. Please Anet, don’t change how your reward system works. If I wanted to experience low chance loot drops from mobs in zerg raids, I WOULDN’T be playing GW2. I’m not alone.

“If I wanted to experience low chance loot drops from mobs in zerg raids, I WOULDN’T be playing GW2.”
This is exactly what GW2 gives you.. with the exception of the word ‘raid’. But then again, nobody here asked for raids.

" I WOULDN’T be playing GW2. " Well, many people AREN’T playing GW2 because of this.

That’s not true at all. I get loot drops from zerg raids all the time, and they aren’t low chance. In fact, they are 100% chance. I almost know exactly what quality of loot I’m going to get doing a raid.

That’s OK, you twist what people say however you want to convince yourself everyone agrees with you. Luckily, most of us are smart enough to know what we mean when we type something.

I guess you are talking about loot in general. I talk about the loot I really want.. you know the item you are after.. The item you will now eventually buy with the gold you got from selling the loot you got? The item itself however does have an extremely low chance of dropping (if it drops at all).

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

There simply is no denying there is a lot of grinding going on in this game.

Can’t deny that people are dumb enough to subject themselves to it when they don’t need to.

So you do agree there is a lot of grinding going on? That is great.

Then there is one step more to take and that is to accept that the way you design a game can help to push people in that grind direction (or leave them no choice if they wish to collect / hunt down certain items) and that another design can be more capable of preventing this, pushing people who like collecting or hunting down items into a more fun experience.

When you are willing to also accept that next step you should try to understand that all people are asking for in this thread, is for the design that does the latter.

Personally I am not ‘dumb enough to subject’ myself ‘to it’. But I would love to be able to hunt down those items in a more fun way. It’s now just a huge part of the game-play that is missing as I am not subjecting myself to this grind. A game-play I would love to have… in a fun way.

Is there a good example of a currently running MMO that manages to keep people busy and let them get their skins and gear in a non-repetitive, non-grindy way?

Devata.6589:

It’s now just a huge part of the game-play that is missing as I am not subjecting myself to this grind. A game-play I would love to have… in a fun way.

You dont like the Gear/Costumes/Pets to be sold in the Gemstore , because you hate the gold/gem transactions …

Why you dont tell that as you reason and you try to to hyjact other ppl threads , by using ‘’general terms’’ to to acomplice you never unufilling eish ?

That why you are such a small minded ….
You are using others ppl threads to create an uproar , but your plan ‘’ a game without selling Gemstore items – and instead that items to be gained by ingame ….will be never fullied ’’ …

You hyjacts even the OP threads , that he hated the different areas that have different RNGS …
Whos between us , is the guy without argument ?

We even had 2 megathreads deticated to you with the EXTACT SAME CONTENT , and with no results …. but instead the ideas that you tried to promote are already in the game , or have been used in the past ..

I wont be gentle this time …. last time i let you to see what you could propose …. but instead you kept going the same circles over and over again for 38 pages …

LETS US HEAR PLZ THE PROBLEMS OF THE INGAME POPULATION PLZZZ !!!!!!!!

2,5 days …

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

There simply is no denying there is a lot of grinding going on in this game.

Can’t deny that people are dumb enough to subject themselves to it when they don’t need to.

So you do agree there is a lot of grinding going on? That is great.

For people not smart enough to avoid it, sure. Just like jumping off a cliff is a problem … for people not smart enough to avoid those too. I think of it as Darwin effect … but for people playing MMO’s. The problem fixes itself in the end for people impacted by this effect. They either jump off the cliff and take their chances or they smarten up and learn how to avoid it. Grinding in THIS game is no different. It doesn’t exist if you decide you don’t need to jump off that cliff. Feel free to jump off that cliff, but if you do, l don’t expect too many people to be sympathetic or understanding, especially when Anet puts up more interesting distractions to keep you from jumping.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Is there a good example of a currently running MMO that manages to keep people busy and let them get their skins and gear in a non-repetitive, non-grindy way?

Getting all items completely non-repetitive, I don’t think so, and some grind or the option to grind you will also have almost everywhere.

But if it comes to the hunt for cosmetics it is for sure much better done in WoW. There hunting down items is in fact mainly fun content, where in GW2 that is mainly a boring grind.

There you have crafts that let you make many of such items (skins, mini’s, mounts, toys). Leveling those crafts is then going from the one item you want to make to the next and so does not feel like a grind. Farming mats is not an hard grind, you can get your mats pretty easy and fast, higher level mats are just ‘locked’ behind higher level maps but not behind an huge grind.

Many other items you can earn by completing a quest or a quest chain. There are ranger pets that are challenging to tame, just as there are mini’s you can catch in the world and so on, and so on.

Hunting down those cosmetics simply is a fun experience in that game, while some of the items might still have RNG to them. A heavy grind are just a few.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

It’s now just a huge part of the game-play that is missing as I am not subjecting myself to this grind. A game-play I would love to have… in a fun way.

You dont like the Gear/Costumes/Pets to be sold in the Gemstore , because you hate the gold/gem transactions …

Why you dont tell that as you reason and you try to to hyjact other ppl threads , by using ‘’general terms’’ to to acomplice you never unufilling eish ?

That why you are such a small minded ….
You are using others ppl threads to create an uproar , but your plan ‘’ a game without selling Gemstore items – and instead that items to be gained by ingame ….will be never fullied ’’ …

You hyjacts even the OP threads , that he hated the different areas that have different RNGS …
Whos between us , is the guy without argument ?

We even had 2 megathreads deticated to you with the EXTACT SAME CONTENT , and with no results …. but instead the ideas that you tried to promote are already in the game , or have been used in the past ..

I wont be gentle this time …. last time i let you to see what you could propose …. but instead you kept going the same circles over and over again for 38 pages …

LETS US HEAR PLZ THE PROBLEMS OF THE INGAME POPULATION PLZZZ !!!!!!!!

2,5 days …

It’s the other way around. I don’t like a cash-shop focus because it results in these sorts of things.

Why else you think I don’t like a cash-shop focus? Just ‘because’? I do not dislike anything ‘just because’. I dislike something because of a reason.

I also don’t highjack this thread, in fact I think I mentioned the cash-shop once before in this thread. This grind simply a big thing I dislike about GW2 and so I post in this thread, and yes I see the cash-shop focus as one of the bigger reasons for this grind / the way the reward system is build. That is true.

About going in circles.. That is true, because everybody does. Every page somebody will say “it’s not required” so I give the same answer that I gave the person the page before and will give person who comes with the same statement on the next page. That is why I go in circles. If everybody would follow the discussion from start to end and never repeat exactly the same as what has been said before I would probably not be going into circles, but that’s the nature of the way forums are build. They are no tree structure sadly.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

There simply is no denying there is a lot of grinding going on in this game.

Can’t deny that people are dumb enough to subject themselves to it when they don’t need to.

So you do agree there is a lot of grinding going on? That is great.

For people not smart enough to avoid it, sure. Just like jumping off a cliff is a problem … for people not smart enough to avoid those too. I think of it as Darwin effect … but for people playing MMO’s. The problem fixes itself in the end for people impacted by this effect. They either jump off the cliff and take their chances or they smarten up and learn how to avoid it. Grinding in THIS game is no different. It doesn’t exist if you decide you don’t need to jump off that cliff. Feel free to jump off that cliff, but if you do, l don’t expect too many people to be sympathetic or understanding, especially when Anet puts up more interesting distractions to keep you from jumping.

“They either jump off the cliff and take their chances or they smarten up and learn how to avoid it.” what might in reality mean they stop playing the game or have less fun because there preferred game-play is not available (other than as a grind). What is not good for the game or for Anet.