Guild Wars 2

Cuddy.6247:

Devata.6589:

Cuddy.6247:

Obtena.7952:

Oh I know what he’s referring to. It’s awfully easy to make up stories about points on a graph. All the same thing over and over again. If such a change was so good for the game, Anet would have done it by now. The only thing we see is Anet reinforcing their position on this with craftable precursors in HoT … obviously they don’t agree with the OP or his cheerleading squad.

I agree, ANet’s taking a good route. The precursor hunt seems to be more in-line with more grind and less RNG, which exactly what this game needs more of. Accomplishments for your efforts and not dumb luck. As it sits, far too much depends on your luck in achieving any pecuniary significance. Pure, dumb, unadulterated luck.

Now you could explain this. At this moment getting a precursor mainly means, grind gold and buy it. There is no ‘doable’ RNG / more direct way to get a precursor.

With the new system you will need to do task and get collections. In addition they would make it easier to farm mats.

That seems to be less of a grind and more in the direction I ask for (a more direct way of working towards each other) then the current ‘grind gold’ system.

Sure, the precursor will be so extreme it probably still is a grind (and in fact I did say a few grinds for some very rare items would not be a problem, I guess the precursor is supposed to be this very rare thing) but nonetheless a more direct approach and smaller grind / split into smaller junks again more into the direction of what I am suggesting here.

May I ask, then, what your definition of grind is? Because the new precursor system is most definitively a grind. Grind never hurt games, terrible RNG has. The RNG in this game has become a reckless chore that’s more grindy than it needs to be due to a slackjaw manifesto that ArenaNet should revise and poor reward distribution.

Grind can be a lot, but for me grind (or the worse grind) mainly is if you are grinding for currencies all the time simply to get the item you want and then again and again, slowly seeing a number (the currency) going up, while not have a more direct approach (without some currency) to work towards the item.

Doing a quest or quest-chain to get an item (that belongs to that quest-chain) is not a grind. Doing just some random quest to earn gold to buy the same item is a grind.

Some doable RNG is maybe still a little grindy but because it’s doable it means it’s still a viable option to work directly towards getting the item and it adds the rush of ‘will it drop’ to that ‘grind’ where the currency grind does not.

A fun craft where there is always a next item around the corner you want to make and where mats are not there almost impossible to get items is also not a grind. Getting a specific reward for completing specific challenging content (think Liadri) is also not a grind.

That should give you a good idea of what I see as (bad) grind and what not.

I do agree the precursor crafting will likely still be grindy simply because it’s so much you need to do. But still I think it’s a step in the right direction because it’s not this never ending gold grind for everything but specific task that eventually lead you towards the precursor. Also pre-cursors are supposed to be very special, if there is some grind for a few items you will not hear me complain. It’s this never ending (gold) grind for almost everything (cosmetic) in this game.

If they would then also add similar systems (but not as extreme) for other items then.. well then you would have what I have been asking for.

Cuddy.6247:

Obtena.7952:

You can split hairs if you like and convince yourself crafted precursors are a move away from gold/mat earning. Anet creating craftable precursors is just supporting their current approach to the game and will be as much about earning gold and mats to get it as anything else. That’s the ‘grind’ that people are QQing about. I don’t see how anything has changed.

Well, people don’t assume that the precursor collections will be as much of a RNG demon as drops are. I, admittedly, fall within that category and I should probably feel bad for taking a presumptuous stand. Still, being rewarded for one’s efforts, as grindy as it may be, is more rewarding than a RNG grind – which ends up being too pervasive and demoralizing. Hell, I’m sure if people could even guarantee an exotic from completing, say, Orr paths, people would be doing those more often than they do now. Yet, as it stands, there’s no guarantee of anything – there’s nothing you can possibly do other than kill any champion or any foe and get a shot at what you want.

That’s just…not feasible.

Exactly my point.. so what happens is that people kill champions, to sell the stuff they don’t want to buy the item they do want and keep repeating this process… The grind I talk about.

Devata.6589:

Exactly my point.. so what happens is that people kill champions, to sell the stuff they don’t want to buy the item they do want and keep repeating this process… The grind I talk about.

Which can also be described as:

People play the content they want to play and gain access to the rewards they desire without having to ever grind at all.

Its not black and white, good vs bad, grind vs no grind. Entirely too many variables for that.

Cuddy.6247:

Devata.6589:

Cuddy.6247:

Jelle.2807:

Just popping in to say I don’t mind the grind really. So long as it’s for marginal stat increase (ascended gear) or cosmetics, yeah ’s fine by me.

What I don’t like is excessive RNG. I would rather grind for something I know will, for example take me 20 hours to complete, rather than something random that’ll take an average of 15 hours, but might also take 50 hours if you’re unlucky. When effort does not match reward, things be unfair.
Looking at you precursors.

Yeah this has always kittened me off, and it’s why I liked Guild Wars more than Guild Wars 2. At least in Guild Wars, you had a really good chance of getting Dhuum’s Scythe if you ran UWSC for 4-6 months. Speedrun dungeons, WvW, PvP or even MF gambling for 4-6 months in this game…gives you no good chance at anything, really. It’s a crying shame that you can’t work for your rewards.

Part of the reason I went casual is I spent over a year speedrunning dungeons just to get Dusk to no avail. Money to buy Dusk was acquired and I still never saw a precursor. I spent a year trying. That just seems at a certain point to be unethical in the way they designed RNG. Hell, I still don’t have Sunrise to go with it because I can’t be bothered to buy Dawn or farm against the treadmill anymore. Much like the precursor hunt, though, if there were some sort of way for me to get a reward for my effort rather than banging my head against the wall praying to RNGesus, I will enjoy this game a lot more.

I’m thankful they’re finally coming to grips with replacing RNG with provisional grind.

This is a little strange statement. "Part of the reason I went casual is I spent over a year speedrunning dungeons just to get Dusk to no avail. Money to buy Dusk was acquired and I still never saw a precursor. ".

So if you love grind so much, what was then the problem? You grinded the gold? And the fact that it’s not possible to work directly towards the item you want (other then the gold-grind) is what I talk about all the time. These items for example do indeed drop but with such a extreme low drop-rate that you can’t work towards them anymore leaving grind (for gold) as the only real viable option to get them.

So what you say you dislike results in what you say you like. Reasonable drop-rates lets you also work towards an item. Just as putting items behind specific content does like chest, or putting them behind challenging content or in fun crafts. That are the types of things I am asking for. But would decrease the grind.

You say you are happy with more grind because that allows you to work towards something.. yes in the same was as it already does ‘grind gold, grind gold’ but at the same time you say you like the ‘change to grind’ because you dislike the current RNG system… that results in grind.

So what is it? You liked it that you had to grind gold for your legendary and want more of that? Or you dislike the grind and want less of it???

I like grind. I dislike the idea of not being rewarded for my grind. Hell, I can’t even reasonably farm in Silverwastes or EotM and achieve much money. I spent maybe 8 hours the other day in EotM on my day off and walked away with a grand total of like 25 gold. That’s absurd. I can get more gold by grabbing a second job.

I’m not an advocate against grind, I really hate the idea of removing grind from this game – it means there is no achievements to earn. I want my effort to be directly correlated in the rewards I earn, and that simply doesn’t exist anymore. Too many things (the Halloween weapon skins, precursors, minipets, black lion tickets, dyes, gathering nodes) are all a wonderful (sarcasm) RNG fest that have no effort to reward ratio. Unlike, e.g., Arah armor or Lumi/Carapace – which you can earn by just putting some effort into the game.

What I have been suggesting is putting these items in the game behind specific content. Sometimes with some doable rng, other times as direct rewards.

Isn’t it way more fun to kill a specific pink boss because it drops that pink color you want. (being it as a guaranteed drop-rate or with a doable RNG / drop rate.)

Get the mini-pet for completing a specific JP, getting that cool skin for completing a dungeon and an even better skin for completing the same dungeon but leaving no mobs alive inside and so on.

Now that would be fun ways to hunt down those items. Not grind gold and then buy them.

The amount of gold your earn / drop-rate of such items is yet a completely different question and not so much related to this.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Exactly my point.. so what happens is that people kill champions, to sell the stuff they don’t want to buy the item they do want and keep repeating this process… The grind I talk about.

Which can also be described as:

People play the content they want to play and gain access to the rewards they desire without having to ever grind at all.

Its not black and white, good vs bad, grind vs no grind. Entirely too many variables for that.

Yeah that is how you could describe it and Anet does describes it. But for all items you do not make account-bound this would still be an option also using the other system so it is not a positive for one system over the other.

You also forget that what some people like, is the hunt for those items and you lose that game-play.

It’s in peoples nature that they go for the way of least resistance so you system helps people to burn them-self out, not doing the content they like but the content that makes the best gold in the easiest way. I see many people defining this system here say “there own fault” and that is true but does not help the game even a little bid.

Part of the fun of content can be the rush of that item you want dropping, where not it’s just a number going up. Meaning you lost that part of the fun.

So on paper your right, in reality it works a little different.

Devata.6589:

So on paper your right, in reality it works a little different.

Actually no. One of the reasons this debate has been so funny to read is that we are both completely right.

Some people would love your approach.

Some people would hate it.

Some people would love it sometimes and hate it others.

For some people the fun is in the rush. For others the fun is in making measurable progress towards something they desire.

Personally I like a mix of both. I like the idea of a skin that says something about your accomplishments as a player. I also like the ability to work towards a goal without having to worry too much about RNG. To be honest, in general, if I want to gamble I am inclined to find a venue with a better pay off than an MMO.

I like the idea of specific items to drop from specific content :P
Just like the current ‘’Beta Portal’’ (RNG drop item that lest you participate in the next close Beta , and drops from npcs + events , in 2 specifics areas) .
(while the Precursors can drop from every map in the world – or any other item tha you can hunt or buy from the AH)

I dont believe there is is a huge whine/dishappiness in the forums and ingame about that :P

And we must implant it to the HOT maps too and in the organised Raids (like the ppl in the Raid Megathread wanted!)!
Do it nyawwwww !

(Why me noooo Beta portal dond gett till nyawww ?!? ? Meee give goot freebakk ! Engliss goot noww !!!)

Devata.6589:

Cuddy.6247:

Devata.6589:

Cuddy.6247:

Obtena.7952:

Oh I know what he’s referring to. It’s awfully easy to make up stories about points on a graph. All the same thing over and over again. If such a change was so good for the game, Anet would have done it by now. The only thing we see is Anet reinforcing their position on this with craftable precursors in HoT … obviously they don’t agree with the OP or his cheerleading squad.

I agree, ANet’s taking a good route. The precursor hunt seems to be more in-line with more grind and less RNG, which exactly what this game needs more of. Accomplishments for your efforts and not dumb luck. As it sits, far too much depends on your luck in achieving any pecuniary significance. Pure, dumb, unadulterated luck.

Now you could explain this. At this moment getting a precursor mainly means, grind gold and buy it. There is no ‘doable’ RNG / more direct way to get a precursor.

With the new system you will need to do task and get collections. In addition they would make it easier to farm mats.

That seems to be less of a grind and more in the direction I ask for (a more direct way of working towards each other) then the current ‘grind gold’ system.

Sure, the precursor will be so extreme it probably still is a grind (and in fact I did say a few grinds for some very rare items would not be a problem, I guess the precursor is supposed to be this very rare thing) but nonetheless a more direct approach and smaller grind / split into smaller junks again more into the direction of what I am suggesting here.

May I ask, then, what your definition of grind is? Because the new precursor system is most definitively a grind. Grind never hurt games, terrible RNG has. The RNG in this game has become a reckless chore that’s more grindy than it needs to be due to a slackjaw manifesto that ArenaNet should revise and poor reward distribution.

Grind can be a lot, but for me grind (or the worse grind) mainly is if you are grinding for currencies all the time simply to get the item you want and then again and again, slowly seeing a number (the currency) going up, while not have a more direct approach (without some currency) to work towards the item.

Doing a quest or quest-chain to get an item (that belongs to that quest-chain) is not a grind. Doing just some random quest to earn gold to buy the same item is a grind.

Some doable RNG is maybe still a little grindy but because it’s doable it means it’s still a viable option to work directly towards getting the item and it adds the rush of ‘will it drop’ to that ‘grind’ where the currency grind does not.

A fun craft where there is always a next item around the corner you want to make and where mats are not there almost impossible to get items is also not a grind. Getting a specific reward for completing specific challenging content (think Liadri) is also not a grind.

That should give you a good idea of what I see as (bad) grind and what not.

I do agree the precursor crafting will likely still be grindy simply because it’s so much you need to do. But still I think it’s a step in the right direction because it’s not this never ending gold grind for everything but specific task that eventually lead you towards the precursor. Also pre-cursors are supposed to be very special, if there is some grind for a few items you will not hear me complain. It’s this never ending (gold) grind for almost everything (cosmetic) in this game.

If they would then also add similar systems (but not as extreme) for other items then.. well then you would have what I have been asking for.

In other words, you don’t seem to be against grind at all. Like the rest of the unhappy folk, though, you’re tired of the grind associated with the terrible RNG. Might be a good time to sit down, think over all of the terms you’re using, what they mean and what your proposals actually are.

As you stated, you’re against the gold grind – which problematic because value and income in this game is a total RNG fest, there’s little in the name of stable income unless you count the gold reward at the end of each dungeon path; and there’s certainly no stability to be had in drop rate assurances. So, by a rational conclusion, you’re against the RNG system in this game.

At least, it makes much more sense to consider it that way.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

I like the idea of specific items to drop from specific content :P
Just like the current ‘’Beta Portal’’ (RNG drop item that lest you participate in the next close Beta , and drops from npcs + events , in 2 specifics areas) .
(while the Precursors can drop from every map in the world – or any other item tha you can hunt or buy from the AH)

I dont believe there is is a huge whine/dishappiness in the forums and ingame about that :P

And we must implant it to the HOT maps too and in the organised Raids (like the ppl in the Raid Megathread wanted!)!
Do it nyawwwww !

(Why me noooo Beta portal dond gett till nyawww ?!? ? Meee give goot freebakk ! Engliss goot noww !!!)

The beta portal is a poor example, though. It’s a beta, it’s meant to be a chance for players to offer feedback. The method they propose only extends to those players who are grinding for the limited availability. It’s effectively cutting one of the largest portions of the playerbase from offering feedback on the content. There is no way you can justify how the beta portal works when the beta is meant to be tested for feedback.

On the other hand, though, I would like to see that same ideology pass on to other drops in this game – improve their drop chances from event chests and mobs in a particular area so that people can narrow down their goals and see achievable results with their effort. When you have a great majority of players, like me, who have accumulated 2,000 hours in 2.5 years with no drops worth more than 25g, it’s time to reevaluate how the RNG in this game works and how they improve it to make it an actual grind and not sheer, dumb luck.

Because at a certain point, the RNG wall just demotivates people from continuing. They grind…and they grind…and they grind…and they grind…and there’s really no reason to keep throwing your stock in RNG when the drop rates are so horrendously low due to a poor distribution of drops since the very start of this game.

Some of the best examples I can think of from Guild Wars 1 are things like DoASC or Underworld solo farming. You could play for eight hours a day if you wanted, but unless you were doing this endgame content, you weren’t going to get as much money as someone else who did.

I don’t have an option to go solo Underworld in this game though to grab ectos. I don’t have an option to run an elite dungeon and acquire something that’s the rough equivalent of a black lion claim ticket. I don’t have the option to speedrun Bogroot Growths to get froggy scepters. In fact, I don’t have any options whatsoever. I don’t benefit from playing effectively, I have to deal with a kittenty RNG that is the same, regardless of what I do. There’s nothing I can do, as a player, to improve my income – to improve my rewards…save just play all the time; but as a working class citizen, that’s not an option.

Cuddy.6247:

In other words, you don’t seem to be against grind at all.

Bingo. He just rides the no grind train to promote his own ideas of what how he actually wants grind implemented in the game. Nice bit of trickery that ay? This isn’t new either. There is at least one other huge thread where this happens and it’s pointed out. Little is different here.

Offair.2563:

From your list i can tell you only call the grind upon yourself. You want skins tonics and probably a precursor so yeah, it is a “grind” aka fighting rngesus.

That’s the definition of a grind…

Grind is mandatory, farming is not.

Devata.6589:

Jelle.2807:

snip

I think you missed the part where I completely agreed with this part. Yeah when RNG is to extreme is also just bad and not better then a currency grind, in fact it would really result in a currency grind as that would then be the only viable option to get the item. That is also exactly how many items in GW2 that are available in the game are added.. with an extreme low-drop rate but usually also dropping from many places or from something that already gets grinded for gold.

Ah, very likely, I did skim through the thread in a hurry and I was pretty tired when I made that post. Apolagies.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

So on paper your right, in reality it works a little different.

Actually no. One of the reasons this debate has been so funny to read is that we are both completely right.

Some people would love your approach.

Some people would hate it.

Some people would love it sometimes and hate it others.

For some people the fun is in the rush. For others the fun is in making measurable progress towards something they desire.

Personally I like a mix of both. I like the idea of a skin that says something about your accomplishments as a player. I also like the ability to work towards a goal without having to worry too much about RNG. To be honest, in general, if I want to gamble I am inclined to find a venue with a better pay off than an MMO.

The mix is what I do suggest. Direct ways of working towards your item, what indeed also means an items says something about your accomplishment but I do also not mind a little RNG as long as it’s doable / not over the top, meaning it still gives you an possibility to work directly towards it by doing the content that drops it.

So I guess we are on the same page with that.

The thing is, when you make most of those items not account-bound you also have the grind option available (the measurable progress). Sure that would reduce the in-game value of item because it does not say anything about your accomplishment anymore. Of-course you could mix that, some account-bound, some not.

I all also aware both type of people exist but when the items are not account bound (or for those items that are not account-bound) you could have both ways available so pleasing both type of players. It does not really have to be pleasing the one or the other.

Obtena.7952:

Cuddy.6247:

In other words, you don’t seem to be against grind at all.

Bingo. He just rides the no grind train to promote his own ideas of what how he actually wants grind implemented in the game. Nice bit of trickery that ay? This isn’t new either. There is at least one other huge thread where this happens and it’s pointed out. Little is different here.

I wouldn’t be so quick to equate manipulation with obscurity. Some people only have vague ideas of what they mean, while having a communicable point – or has the business discussion faded from memory in the last 24 hours?

Cuddy.6247:

Devata.6589:

Cuddy.6247:

Devata.6589:

Cuddy.6247:

Obtena.7952:

~

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May I ask, then, what your definition of grind is? Because the new precursor system is most definitively a grind. Grind never hurt games, terrible RNG has. The RNG in this game has become a reckless chore that’s more grindy than it needs to be due to a slackjaw manifesto that ArenaNet should revise and poor reward distribution.

Grind can be a lot, but for me grind (or the worse grind) mainly is if you are grinding for currencies all the time simply to get the item you want and then again and again, slowly seeing a number (the currency) going up, while not have a more direct approach (without some currency) to work towards the item.

Doing a quest or quest-chain to get an item (that belongs to that quest-chain) is not a grind. Doing just some random quest to earn gold to buy the same item is a grind.

Some doable RNG is maybe still a little grindy but because it’s doable it means it’s still a viable option to work directly towards getting the item and it adds the rush of ‘will it drop’ to that ‘grind’ where the currency grind does not.

A fun craft where there is always a next item around the corner you want to make and where mats are not there almost impossible to get items is also not a grind. Getting a specific reward for completing specific challenging content (think Liadri) is also not a grind.

That should give you a good idea of what I see as (bad) grind and what not.

I do agree the precursor crafting will likely still be grindy simply because it’s so much you need to do. But still I think it’s a step in the right direction because it’s not this never ending gold grind for everything but specific task that eventually lead you towards the precursor. Also pre-cursors are supposed to be very special, if there is some grind for a few items you will not hear me complain. It’s this never ending (gold) grind for almost everything (cosmetic) in this game.

If they would then also add similar systems (but not as extreme) for other items then.. well then you would have what I have been asking for.

In other words, you don’t seem to be against grind at all. Like the rest of the unhappy folk, though, you’re tired of the grind associated with the terrible RNG. Might be a good time to sit down, think over all of the terms you’re using, what they mean and what your proposals actually are.

As you stated, you’re against the gold grind – which problematic because value and income in this game is a total RNG fest, there’s little in the name of stable income unless you count the gold reward at the end of each dungeon path; and there’s certainly no stability to be had in drop rate assurances. So, by a rational conclusion, you’re against the RNG system in this game.

At least, it makes much more sense to consider it that way.

I have always been very clear about disliking the never ending gold-grind. I also always linked that to extreme low drop-rates what has to do with dropping items in multiple places. (what in turn I link again to the cash-shop focus as they basically sell a way out of the grind) Or simply with items only being available for gold (like in the cash-shop), I also always made a clear difference between doable / reasonable / viable RNG what means you can directly work towards an item. Versus drop-rates that means you can not in any viable way work towards an item other then grinding gold.

Doable RNG where the item drops but you can in a viable way work towards getting it I consider farming and I have no problem with some farming in an MMO. That is the repetition that keeps people busy and at the very least this always gives the rush of ‘will it drop’.

I have always been very clear about these things and choosing my words carefully. However if somebody sees I say I am fine with some doable RNG mixed into it.

They forget about all the other direct approaches I talked about, like quest-chains, guaranteed dungeons-rewards and so on. They also completely look over the word doable or viable. They just see RNG, link that to the extreme low drop-rates in GW2 and go mad. While failing to see that those extreme low drop-rates (GW2s RNG) very much is what my suggestions go against.

Yes I am very much against the RNG system as it is in place in GW2 now, but not only that. Any item you can only buy for gold (like cash-shop-items) also only give grinding gold as the in-game way of getting them. I want direct in-game approaches towards getting items. Being it some doable RNG (So not the one we see now) or / and direct approaches like earning it in crafts (when crafts are also made less of a grind) and completing a dungeon or some quests or a JP, challenging content like Liadri and so on.

Cuddy.6247:

Killthehealersffs.8940:

I like the idea of specific items to drop from specific content :P
Just like the current ‘’Beta Portal’’ (RNG drop item that lest you participate in the next close Beta , and drops from npcs + events , in 2 specifics areas) .
(while the Precursors can drop from every map in the world – or any other item tha you can hunt or buy from the AH)

I dont believe there is is a huge whine/dishappiness in the forums and ingame about that :P

And we must implant it to the HOT maps too and in the organised Raids (like the ppl in the Raid Megathread wanted!)!
Do it nyawwwww !

(Why me noooo Beta portal dond gett till nyawww ?!? ? Meee give goot freebakk ! Engliss goot noww !!!)

The beta portal is a poor example, though. It’s a beta, it’s meant to be a chance for players to offer feedback. The method they propose only extends to those players who are grinding for the limited availability. It’s effectively cutting one of the largest portions of the playerbase from offering feedback on the content. There is no way you can justify how the beta portal works when the beta is meant to be tested for feedback.

On the other hand, though, I would like to see that same ideology pass on to other drops in this game – improve their drop chances from event chests and mobs in a particular area so that people can narrow down their goals and see achievable results with their effort. When you have a great majority of players, like me, who have accumulated 2,000 hours in 2.5 years with no drops worth more than 25g, it’s time to reevaluate how the RNG in this game works and how they improve it to make it an actual grind and not sheer, dumb luck.

Because at a certain point, the RNG wall just demotivates people from continuing. They grind…and they grind…and they grind…and they grind…and there’s really no reason to keep throwing your stock in RNG when the drop rates are so horrendously low due to a poor distribution of drops since the very start of this game.

The item can drop from many mobs (while only in two area’s, but area that gets grinded already), but as I have understand with very low drop-rates likely probably because it drops from so many mobs. So that means it’s still a grind, and indeed also against time what would make it even worse. So it for sure is a grind. That means they likely will get mainly people in the beta that have no problems with grind what results in better feedback for any grind in the beta. Just saying.

Cuddy.6247:

Obtena.7952:

Cuddy.6247:

In other words, you don’t seem to be against grind at all.

Bingo. He just rides the no grind train to promote his own ideas of what how he actually wants grind implemented in the game. Nice bit of trickery that ay? This isn’t new either. There is at least one other huge thread where this happens and it’s pointed out. Little is different here.

I wouldn’t be so quick to equate manipulation with obscurity. Some people only have vague ideas of what they mean, while having a communicable point – or has the business discussion faded from memory in the last 24 hours?

It’s not faded, there just isn’t anything left to discuss there. I’m not quick to equate … it’s pretty clear. It’s not the first time a no grind thread has been hijacked to push a different grind agenda by this person. It’s not the first time he was informed that he was supporting grinding in a no grind thread.

Obtena.7952:

Cuddy.6247:

Obtena.7952:

Cuddy.6247:

In other words, you don’t seem to be against grind at all.

Bingo. He just rides the no grind train to promote his own ideas of what how he actually wants grind implemented in the game. Nice bit of trickery that ay? This isn’t new either. There is at least one other huge thread where this happens and it’s pointed out. Little is different here.

I wouldn’t be so quick to equate manipulation with obscurity. Some people only have vague ideas of what they mean, while having a communicable point – or has the business discussion faded from memory in the last 24 hours?

It’s not faded, there just isn’t anything left to discuss there. I’m not quick to equate … it’s pretty clear. It’s not the first time a no grind thread has been hijacked to push a different grind agenda by this person. It’s not the first time he was informed that he was supporting grinding in a no grind thread.

Only the doable RNG-part of what I suggested can be seen as grind while still smaller junks of grind.

Getting specific rewards for specific content like complete quest x to get item y is in no way grinding. And that type of implementations is also a big part of what I suggest.

Basically what my suggestion comes down to it taking the current never ending gold-grind and make of that some smaller junks of farms (the doable rng) or grind if you will call it that, mixed with also really grind-free options like getting more guaranteed rewards for specific content (do quest x for item y).

Those suggestion do not completely remove the grind no, but it is also not simply a different grind, it results in less grind overall.

If I however remind correctly you where the one who in the previous post said doing quest x to get item y is also a grind..
Well if you consider everything grind then you are right. However doing quest x to get item y is no repetition so not in any way part of the definition of grind.
Meaning if you would do that with half of the items you can now only get by grinding gold you would effectively end up with less grind in total. The other half of the items would then be smaller junks of grind so then fine.. for that part you can say I only ask for a different type of grind. Overall however it would result in less grind.

I am pretty sure I never said my suggestion would completely remove any grind or faming or reputation completely

Devata.6589:

I am pretty sure I never said my suggestion would completely remove any grind or faming or reputation completely

I’m ABSOLUTELY sure you never suggested such a thing. That’s why it’s sad you continually push your grinding ideas in ‘no grind’ threads.

Obtena.7952:

Cuddy.6247:

Obtena.7952:

Cuddy.6247:

In other words, you don’t seem to be against grind at all.

Bingo. He just rides the no grind train to promote his own ideas of what how he actually wants grind implemented in the game. Nice bit of trickery that ay? This isn’t new either. There is at least one other huge thread where this happens and it’s pointed out. Little is different here.

I wouldn’t be so quick to equate manipulation with obscurity. Some people only have vague ideas of what they mean, while having a communicable point – or has the business discussion faded from memory in the last 24 hours?

It’s not faded, there just isn’t anything left to discuss there. I’m not quick to equate … it’s pretty clear. It’s not the first time a no grind thread has been hijacked to push a different grind agenda by this person. It’s not the first time he was informed that he was supporting grinding in a no grind thread.

I can see that now. I translated Devata’s post to a communicable level and there’s still some sort of disagreement.

I’m not going to be eloquent about it, keep trying to hammer in the point if you wish, but I’m done. I’d have better luck talking sense into the Obergefell v. Hodges case. I’ve made my point clear here, I have nothing else to discuss.

Devata.6589:

I am pretty sure I never said my suggestion would completely remove any grind or faming or reputation completely

Then why purport it as a no-grind philosophy? There’s a clear distinction between grind and RNG, one is a problem in this game – the other isn’t (for those who aren’t caught up to speed, RNG sucks in Guild Wars 2). An answer in a sentence or less would be appreciated, these diatribes of nothing are a bore.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

I am pretty sure I never said my suggestion would completely remove any grind or faming or reputation completely

I’m ABSOLUTELY sure you never suggested such a thing. That’s why it’s sad you continually push your grinding ideas in ‘no grind’ threads.

So the threads are about completely removing all grind? You know the title ‘no grind philosophy’ simply refers to Anets statement about a no grind philosophy, is does not mean the OP wants a game that has no grind, farming or repetition of any kind. It might very well be about the fact that Anet talks about a ‘no grind philosophy’ but the game is grindy as hell. Maybe you are the one interpreting these threads wrong?

So according to you suggestions to decrease grind are not welcome in these threads, only ones that would remove grind completely. Of course then you would start complaining games need some grind according to you.

Well at least in that way you can always try to dismiss anything anybody says so that must feel pretty good?

Cuddy.6247:

Devata.6589:

I am pretty sure I never said my suggestion would completely remove any grind or faming or reputation completely

Then why purport it as a no-grind philosophy? There’s a clear distinction between grind and RNG, one is a problem in this game – the other isn’t (for those who aren’t caught up to speed, RNG sucks in Guild Wars 2). An answer in a sentence or less would be appreciated, these diatribes of nothing are a bore.

You should ask Anet that? I did not come up with the term ‘no grind philosophy’ all I am saying is that they promote a game with that term and then have an extremely grindy game.

The grind in this game very much is a problem, grind (gold), grind (gold) and grind (gold). You even talk about that yourself I think. That grind is caused by multiple things, one of them being indeed the way RNG works now in this game (drop items from many places but with extreme low drop-rates so in effect you can only get them by grinding gold) and items factually only available from gold.

Devata.6589:

Cuddy.6247:

Devata.6589:

I am pretty sure I never said my suggestion would completely remove any grind or faming or reputation completely

Then why purport it as a no-grind philosophy? There’s a clear distinction between grind and RNG, one is a problem in this game – the other isn’t (for those who aren’t caught up to speed, RNG sucks in Guild Wars 2). An answer in a sentence or less would be appreciated, these diatribes of nothing are a bore.

You should ask Anet that? I did not come up with the term ‘no grind philosophy’ all I am saying is that they promote a game with that term and then have an extremely grindy game.

The grind in this game very much is a problem, grind (gold), grind (gold) and grind (gold). You even talk about that yourself I think. That grind is caused by multiple things, one of them being indeed the way RNG works now in this game (drop items from many places but with extreme low drop-rates so in effect you can only get them by grinding gold) and items factually only available from gold.

ANet’s core mantra was expressed in such a way that grind wasn’t involved, but that it wouldn’t take grind to reach max level and complete your favorite content. To so many degrees, they’re correct. It’s not a chore or a grind, at all, to hit level 80, run dungeons, play WvW or even participate in PvP.

It is a grind, however, to continuously fight poor RNG. There’s a direct causal relationship there that, I’m sure, has caused many players to up and leave the game. This is a problem associated with RNG, not grind. These are using established terms to address the raised issue – not arbitrary measurements like “doable.”

The gold grind you keep referring to over and over again is a direct result of RNG, which makes RNG the culprit. It is an RNG that does not favor effort. There is nothing you can do, as a player, to improve your chances of getting a good reward, save play all the time. The very core of the issue is the distribution of rewards and RNG. These are the things you have said without vague descriptors, which I agree with – but I’m trying to make it communicable.

Hopefully this has cracked through your skull by now that there is a difference between grind and poor RNG, which only has a causal relationship with grind and is the source of most of the frustration in this game.

Cuddy.6247:

Devata.6589:

Cuddy.6247:

Devata.6589:

I am pretty sure I never said my suggestion would completely remove any grind or faming or reputation completely

Then why purport it as a no-grind philosophy? There’s a clear distinction between grind and RNG, one is a problem in this game – the other isn’t (for those who aren’t caught up to speed, RNG sucks in Guild Wars 2). An answer in a sentence or less would be appreciated, these diatribes of nothing are a bore.

You should ask Anet that? I did not come up with the term ‘no grind philosophy’ all I am saying is that they promote a game with that term and then have an extremely grindy game.

The grind in this game very much is a problem, grind (gold), grind (gold) and grind (gold). You even talk about that yourself I think. That grind is caused by multiple things, one of them being indeed the way RNG works now in this game (drop items from many places but with extreme low drop-rates so in effect you can only get them by grinding gold) and items factually only available from gold.

ANet’s core mantra was expressed in such a way that grind wasn’t involved, but that it wouldn’t take grind to reach max level and complete your favorite content. To so many degrees, they’re correct. It’s not a chore or a grind, at all, to hit level 80, run dungeons, play WvW or even participate in PvP.

It is a grind, however, to continuously fight poor RNG. There’s a direct causal relationship there that, I’m sure, has caused many players to up and leave the game. This is a problem associated with RNG, not grind. These are using established terms to address the raised issue – not arbitrary measurements like “doable.”

The gold grind you keep referring to over and over again is a direct result of RNG, which makes RNG the culprit. It is an RNG that does not favor effort. There is nothing you can do, as a player, to improve your chances of getting a good reward, save play all the time. The very core of the issue is the distribution of rewards and RNG. These are the things you have said without vague descriptors, which I agree with – but I’m trying to make it communicable.

Hopefully this has cracked through your skull by now that there is a difference between grind and poor RNG, which only has a causal relationship with grind and is the source of most of the frustration in this game.

I use the not so exact term ‘doable’ because it’s no exact science and partly personal. One might say 1 / 250 is doable, somebody else 1/100 and yet another 1/10. Fact is, the extremely low drop-rates in GW2 make it not able to work directly towards anything in any realistic way. So that is why I use that term.

Once you agree that what is now in GW2 is not doable you can discuss what is doable or what is considered acceptable drop-rates (RNG) by most people. For those items that would still have RNG. Again, it’s only one element of what I suggest.

“The gold grind you keep referring to over and over again is a direct result of RNG” I disagree. Partly, yes but how about an item in the cash-shop (or any other items you can only buy with some currency). That is not related to rng, you simply need x amount of gold so you can only grind your way towards it.

Maybe you feel you do not get enough gold and blame that on RNG but there are also places you can get exact numbers of gold (like dungeons) so then the amount of gold you got is not related to RNG anymore and even if you would get more gold that simply would mean there would be more gold in the game, meaning the price for that item would go up meaning you where still grinding just as much as now.

So I have to disagree that, that is all only related to RNG. The RNG is only for a part the reason, and then the RNG as it is in GW2, not RNG in general because higher (doable) drop-rates of one specific item in one specific place would not result in this same grind as we see in GW2.

“there is a difference between grind and poor RNG” Did I ever say there wasn’t? Not even close. It was other people who went mad saying I simply want another type of grind because I leave room for some RNG and by doing so seeing the two as the same.

However I do dislike the grind as it is in GW2 and partly blame the poor RNG in GW2 for that.

Devata.6589:

CureForLiving.5360:

Test.8734:

Irrelevant. You are not “REQUIRED” to advance the game. You aren’t even “REQUIRED” to play the game at all.

You’re mixing context here. I do believe ‘required’ here is placed within the context of the game itself and its mechanics.

Devata.6589:

With grind in a game it’s always an ‘if’. IF you want X you need to grind. If you want to do the highest level raids in WoW you need to grind, if you want cosmetics, toys (and so on) in GW2 you need to grind.

Since most new content in WoW takes the form of raids you’d be excluded from a large potion of content if you do not grind for better gear. Access to gameplay content is being walled off. You can’t really liken not being able to play content in the game with having a fancy weapon skin. The only grind in GW2 is fractals and technically leveling, in all other regards there is no content with a barrier to entry that requires grinding.

New content being mainly raids? Every expansion they add new toys, mini’s, mounts, armor and weapons (skins), toys, ranger pets and so on, all having their own content behind it.

With MoP they added a type of Pokémon system for mini’s, so a complete new game mechanic mainly targeting these type of players. They have ‘fun crafts’ (that lets you create this sorts of items) like engineering, that get expanded every expansion. All those things can keep people busy until the next expansion.

So no, most new content is not raids. It’s also all these things. It is exactly what GW2 missis or has as a big grind, and for a game that is so focused on cosmetics and ‘casual players’ that is a big problem.

“You can’t really liken not being able to play content in the game with having a fancy weapon skin.” Linken? You mean ‘compare’ right? No maybe you can’t, for example for me not being able to do the highest level raids would be less of a problem then having the fancy weapon skin behind an never ending brainless grind.

Yes, and in nearly every case of what you mentioned up there about WoW, it is a grind. Don’t tell me it isn’t, because I do play WoW, and started in its Beta. So, I’ve been there for all the “versions” of what Blizzard has done with the game.

Even the Battle Pets are a grind, and not necessarily a fun one after the first 10-15 levels of it. But yet to even do the Battle Pet Menagerie quests for your Garrison in Draenor, you’d better darn well have some seriously high level, grinded, Battle Pets.

DrMcAwEsOmE.2839:

Devata.6589:

CureForLiving.5360:

Test.8734:

Irrelevant. You are not “REQUIRED” to advance the game. You aren’t even “REQUIRED” to play the game at all.

You’re mixing context here. I do believe ‘required’ here is placed within the context of the game itself and its mechanics.

Devata.6589:

With grind in a game it’s always an ‘if’. IF you want X you need to grind. If you want to do the highest level raids in WoW you need to grind, if you want cosmetics, toys (and so on) in GW2 you need to grind.

Since most new content in WoW takes the form of raids you’d be excluded from a large potion of content if you do not grind for better gear. Access to gameplay content is being walled off. You can’t really liken not being able to play content in the game with having a fancy weapon skin. The only grind in GW2 is fractals and technically leveling, in all other regards there is no content with a barrier to entry that requires grinding.

New content being mainly raids? Every expansion they add new toys, mini’s, mounts, armor and weapons (skins), toys, ranger pets and so on, all having their own content behind it.

With MoP they added a type of Pokémon system for mini’s, so a complete new game mechanic mainly targeting these type of players. They have ‘fun crafts’ (that lets you create this sorts of items) like engineering, that get expanded every expansion. All those things can keep people busy until the next expansion.

So no, most new content is not raids. It’s also all these things. It is exactly what GW2 missis or has as a big grind, and for a game that is so focused on cosmetics and ‘casual players’ that is a big problem.

“You can’t really liken not being able to play content in the game with having a fancy weapon skin.” Linken? You mean ‘compare’ right? No maybe you can’t, for example for me not being able to do the highest level raids would be less of a problem then having the fancy weapon skin behind an never ending brainless grind.

Yes, and in nearly every case of what you mentioned up there about WoW, it is a grind. Don’t tell me it isn’t, because I do play WoW, and started in its Beta. So, I’ve been there for all the “versions” of what Blizzard has done with the game.

Even the Battle Pets are a grind, and not necessarily a fun one after the first 10-15 levels of it. But yet to even do the Battle Pet Menagerie quests for your Garrison in Draenor, you’d better darn well have some seriously high level, grinded, Battle Pets.

I did not consider it a grind but a fun hunt for items. Not like GW2 where cosmetics is a boring gold grind.

Many items there simply drop from a quest can so by no definition can you consider those a grind and then some are RNG but usually a more acceptable RNG.

For the battle pets, maybe leveling them is a grind, I simply collect them and maybe level a few in the process but would not try to level them all to a very high level. When you are leveling them t becomes again more of a stats thing what I do not care so much about.

Devata.6589:

With the first part you completely dismiss the fact that hunting down such items is the preferred game-play for many.. that is for them ‘playing the game’ however, that must then not be a boring grind.

There is no item you ‘need’ there is no grinding you ‘need’. There are only goals and those goals might have challenging content to unlock those goals or have a never ending boring grind.

“While I am taking it easy I am still progressing towards my cosmetic of choice.” Also this is purely a theoretically truth. If you would play like this (while again, completely dismissing that hunting down items is the preferred game-play for many) you would hopelessly run behind. New items you might also like get added every month. So collecting is them already completely out of the question. But even only going for the ones you prefer the most will be a unrealistic task, if you add an item to your list of ‘things you want’ once every two month you would only run more and more behind. Not to mention that if a goal is to far away people also lost intrest.

In you first example of how you talk about getting an item without grinding you come to 2 – 5 months. So that would be 3,5 months on average. So if you started to collect such items at release you would soon (3 years later) be able to get your 10th item. (And personally I do not get 3 rares a day but that’s also because I do not play a lot at the moment. Hoping for better times with HoT)

Theoretically it’s all nice, currency

I am not dismissing it, I am saying that this optional grind never blocks you from pursuing your target unlike how mandatory grind blocks you from playing what you want to play.

You’re wrong. Lets assume Gw2 did what many other MMOs do and locks content behind gear scores. So lets say to start Season 2 of the Living story I need to gear fully in ascended. I am a person who values story the most so naturally I am keen to experiance Season 2 the moment it launches but alas I cant, i need to finish off my Ascended gear. I dont have a single piece so its going to take me months Suddenly Ascended gear is not longer something that would be nice to have it becomes a need. Without it I am locked out from the game essentially cause I am no longer ever going to have my story fix until I complete the set. Further more which is probably even worst I cannot afford to fall season behind, part of the fun is to speculate where the story is going to identify the little details and all of that so I cannot really afford to fall seasons behind which makes this not only a grind I cannot avoid but a grind that I have to force myself to endure without a break.

Thats night and day to what we have… yes It still will take me months to get a vision of the mists or a corrupted staff etc.. But they’re never a need and thus I have several ways to avoid the grind on my way to the cosmetic goodness. Every day I login I have a grand many choices on how I am going to reach my target. I am free to go the slow but enjoyable way without any consequences which I just dont have with the mandatory grind for the reasons I mentioned.

Ehh no its not because thats exactly what I do and So far I have 5 characters geared exactly how I want with 3 more being worked one and 2 that have yet to start. Yes new gear is being constantly being released but not all will be applicable to your characters. Further more now with the wardrobe you only need to unlock something once essentially. 2ndly there is no fall behind because there is no restriction. You will never be cut from any content / playing with your friends because you lack some cosmetic so you’re falling behind compare to who / what exactly?

Dont forget we’re talking about the rarest of the rare stuff here. Things like Vision of the Mists and other named exotics that are meant to be a status symbol more then anything else. 10 items in 3 years means an average of 3 items per year. That seems pretty good enough for something thats meant to say I am super awesome. Plenty of cool skins you can get in a couple of days using the same method.

This game is totally not grindy! Have you not seen the updated Anet manifesto?

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

With the first part you completely dismiss the fact that hunting down such items is the preferred game-play for many.. that is for them ‘playing the game’ however, that must then not be a boring grind.

There is no item you ‘need’ there is no grinding you ‘need’. There are only goals and those goals might have challenging content to unlock those goals or have a never ending boring grind.

“While I am taking it easy I am still progressing towards my cosmetic of choice.” Also this is purely a theoretically truth. If you would play like this (while again, completely dismissing that hunting down items is the preferred game-play for many) you would hopelessly run behind. New items you might also like get added every month. So collecting is them already completely out of the question. But even only going for the ones you prefer the most will be a unrealistic task, if you add an item to your list of ‘things you want’ once every two month you would only run more and more behind. Not to mention that if a goal is to far away people also lost intrest.

In you first example of how you talk about getting an item without grinding you come to 2 – 5 months. So that would be 3,5 months on average. So if you started to collect such items at release you would soon (3 years later) be able to get your 10th item. (And personally I do not get 3 rares a day but that’s also because I do not play a lot at the moment. Hoping for better times with HoT)

Theoretically it’s all nice, currency

I am not dismissing it, I am saying that this optional grind never blocks you from pursuing your target unlike how mandatory grind blocks you from playing what you want to play.

You understand that those things you consider optional is what many people prefer to do / go for and the things you see as important (like the LS) might be things other people don’t care for.

If I like to hunt down cosmetics, if that is how I like to play (and it is) the only way to do it, is to grind. Just as much as your example where gear grind would mean your preferred game-play, the LS, is locked behind that grind.

What is bad for you depends on what you prefer to do. The grind you have to do to get to your goal is just as bad for you as the grind is for those who like to go after cosmetics. Both keep getting added so running behind is also possible in both cases.

“Thats night and day to what we have… yes It still will take me months to get a vision of the mists or a corrupted staff etc.. But they’re never a need and thus I have several ways to avoid the grind on my way to the cosmetic goodness.”

Wait, so because you like to do the LS that is a ‘need’ while the cosmetics isn’t. Both are not a need. In fact I did not complete the last LS yet because I did not feel like is.. so where is the need for that? And just as there are multiple ways to grind for cosmetics there would be multiple ways to grind for gear if that was to be the case.

“Dont forget we’re talking about the rarest of the rare stuff here.” not really, many ‘special’ cosmetics are a grind. Not just a few of the most rarest. Also with gear grind, only some of the hardest content is locked behind the most grind. 99% of the content you can do with gear much more accessible. So again, no much changes.

I completely understand what you are trying to say, but the problem is that it really does matter on what you prefer. Having a grind for the things you like (to do) is always bad. What people like simply difference.

Devata.6589:

People who leave comments like you do seem to think stats is what it’s all about and should be all about for everybody, but thats simply not how it works in an MMO. Many people care more for a cool looking mini then ascended stats.

This thread has the title: “No grind philosophy”

The communicated “not grind philosopy” from A-Net for GW2 is ONLY about stats/levels. It is not about looks, achievements, legendaries, etc, etc…

Thats why some people focus on stats when we talk about the “no grind philosophy”, because for everything else there is no “no grind philosopy” in this game.

Zok.4956:

Devata.6589:

People who leave comments like you do seem to think stats is what it’s all about and should be all about for everybody, but thats simply not how it works in an MMO. Many people care more for a cool looking mini then ascended stats.

This thread has the title: “No grind philosophy”

The communicated “not grind philosopy” from A-Net for GW2 is ONLY about stats/levels. It is not about looks, achievements, legendaries, etc, etc…

Thats why some people focus on stats when we talk about the “no grind philosophy”, because for everything else there is no “no grind philosopy” in this game.

Anet indeed said that (2,5 years after release) but if you read OP’s post he clearly talks about cosmetics, and besides that, you see this being mentioned in many grind topics, also those that don’t have the name ‘no grind philosophy’.

Fernling.1729:

The no grind philosophy presented in things like the manifesto went out the window with the introduction of ascended gear. Even Colin himself confirmed as much in the last thread that shared the same name as this.

Correction, Colin said the manifesto statement stating a player should have the highest statistical gear by the time they reach 80 was changed not the no grind philosophy.

No grind philosophy =/= get everything immediately.

Devata.6589:

You understand that those things you consider optional is what many people prefer to do / go for and the things you see as important (like the LS) might be things other people don’t care for.

I am not sure if the problem is I am not being clear enough or you’re purposefully misquoting what I am saying from some reason. So lets try this again for the third time. What I am calling optional isnt the items or acquiring items, or even any choice of play style. What I am calling optional is THE GRIND.

You want a Corrupted Staff? you can do it your way of playing forget about gold and go directly for corrupted lodestones because you enjoy working towards an item and not gold. Fair enough you should get 1 every 1 – 2hrs. You could kill mobs for 60hrs if you like that. I may find that a grind. I have 2 options… grind the gold necessary by grinding for a few hours and get the gold I need quickly or go spend a couple of weeks playing stuff I enjoy playing and earn the 21g I need that way. Grind or No Grind is my choice. Thats what optional grind means. You want to grind and get what you want quickly? you can do that. You dont want to grind and are willing to wait longer for your reward? you can do that too. The choice is yours.

“If I like to hunt down cosmetics, the only way to do it, is to grind. "

Grind is your option. No matter what it is you’re hunting down there are several non grindy ways to get them. You choose to ignore them. If not please let me know what it is you’re hunting that you see no way of acquiring without grinding. and please add whats specifically you have trouble with.

“What is bad for you depends on what you prefer to do. "

I am only after cosmetics myself actually… over 8 characters I have only like 4 pieces of ascended gear simply because one time I joined a guild high level fractal run and needed quickly some AR. So dont assume that this is an issue effecting only people who like cosmetics.

“Wait, so because you like to do the LS that is a ‘need’ while the cosmetics isn’t.”

Again misunderstanding or misquoting…
First of all this wasnt about LS, LS was just an example used… it was about content locked behind gear scoring. Let me use cosmetics as an example instead of LS maybe you’ll understand me better. Say you’re after Hymenoptera. And we use the same example.. Drytop access is locked behind a gear score you can only get after fully gearing a char in ascended gear. Now getting Ascended gear would be a mandatory grind for you because until you get that the game would just as well be death for you. you have no way of playing what you want (working towards Hymenoptera) as well as if you’re playing with friends perhaps the longer you take to finish of your ascended gear the further behind you’ll fall. .. Actually falling behind because now after the amberite weapon there is SW and the bio lumen armor. Your friends already had an ascended gear set and while you were busy getting yours they got their amber weapons and moved on to SW. And while you’re busy getting your Hymenoptera they’ll finish of the Bio armor and move to what come next and you’ll never play with them again (dramatic moment ). Get the difference between optional and mandatory grind?

With mandatory grind system like gear scores, you’re forced to keep up. take a 6 month break and you’re guaranteed to never be able to play with your friends ever again. With the optional grind system like we have it doesnt matter. If your friends decide to go the grindy way and get their biolumen armor in a record breaking 2 day and it takes you the no grind phylosophy person 6 months you dont suffer any consequences you can still join them in whatever they do, you’re no behind on anything and every single day you’re still free to play what you want including temporary switch to a different cosmetic item for a change of scenery with 0 consequences.

“not really, many ‘special’ cosmetics are a grind.”
No true, only the rare stuff like lion tickets skins are a grind. everything else with very few exception sell for less then 10g on tp how is getting 10g a grind?

Also no true. Some examples.. Neverwinter locked releases behind gear scores. most pvp in mmos is dependant on that gear, Gear often mean whether you get a spot in a dungeon run.

“I completely understand what you are trying to say, but the problem is that it really does matter on what you prefer.”

what people are trying to say here is that here you dont have a grind for the things you like to do at all, you have an optional grind. You can grind if you choose to but there are plenty of ways for you to get the reward you’re interested in without grinding at all.

Devata.6589:

Zok.4956:

Devata.6589:

People who leave comments like you do seem to think stats is what it’s all about and should be all about for everybody, but thats simply not how it works in an MMO. Many people care more for a cool looking mini then ascended stats.

This thread has the title: “No grind philosophy”

The communicated “not grind philosopy” from A-Net for GW2 is ONLY about stats/levels. It is not about looks, achievements, legendaries, etc, etc…

Thats why some people focus on stats when we talk about the “no grind philosophy”, because for everything else there is no “no grind philosopy” in this game.

Anet indeed said that (2,5 years after release) but if you read OP’s post he clearly talks about cosmetics, and besides that, you see this being mentioned in many grind topics, also those that don’t have the name ‘no grind philosophy’.

But this thread has the title “no grind philosophy” . So, are you saying, OP choose a wrong title because he/she did not understand A-Nets “no grind philosophy” ?

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

You understand that those things you consider optional is what many people prefer to do / go for and the things you see as important (like the LS) might be things other people don’t care for.

I am not sure if the problem is I am not being clear enough or you’re purposefully misquoting what I am saying from some reason. So lets try this again for the third time. What I am calling optional isnt the items or acquiring items, or even any choice of play style. What I am calling optional is THE GRIND.

What you are not understanding is that everything in the game is optional. Nobody’s forcing you to even level your characters after all – you can stay at level 1 and play only TP if that’s what you like (and there are people that do exactly that). So saying that grind is optional doesn’t actually mean anything. So what? It’s still a grind.

Devata.6589:

I did show how it would work out (in the previous topics) with numbers, calculations and comparing it with GW1’s numbers. And it showed that it was likely that yearly expansion would have earned Anet more money by now. A change I suggested because of the business impact these suggestions to prevent grind would have, as the cash-shop will always be a huge reason for grind and so there would be no or less place for it anymore.

Its nice to look at trends and all that but you also need to look at all the numbers and not nit picking the ones that tell your story.

Yes Releasing expansions gives you a peak, we all know that.
Peaks in Gw1 were small though about 1/4 what gw2 generates in a quarter on average. In the first year of release Gw2 did more money then Gw1’s live time. Naturally thats because Gw2 is on the whole more popular but the why it is more popular is just as important.

ohh and also quite importantly and I almost forgot… You state Gw1 and lack of cash shop focus as a factor of eliminating grind which is perplexing because Gw1 had the same issue with grind you mention. Getting some of those cosmetic armors required as much hard work as getting some cosmetics in gw2 does.

Sylv.5324:

Grind is mandatory, farming is not.

I’m having trouble understanding why people don’t get this.

Grinding is an action you must take in order to progress within the game.

Farming is an action you may elect to do or not to do, at the cost of personal benefit that would otherwise be nonessential.

Killing the same mob over and over again because its the highest level mob and you need the EXP to level is a grind.

Killing that same mob over and over because it has a tiny chance to drop a shiny weapon that is marginally superior to other weapons, but is not required to function is Farming.

One situation the game makes you do, the other situation you make yourself do.

Precursor -> legendary building is not a grind. It’s tedious, but at any point you can say “F*** this”, buy a moonshank/pearl broadsword/shield/[insert item here] from the market, slap sigils on it, and go jump right into wvw or pve and perform just as well as or outperform people who spent the time putting together those weapons without a need for excessive training to make up for dps differences.

If at any point, you can put a task down and not be punished by falling backward on the competency level with which you are able to perform content and enjoy the game in general, your task is elective farming and not a grind.

Once your focus becomes centered on cosmetic more than performance/completing content, chances are you will need more to keep you occupied. That’s why the nonfunctional skins/finishers/etc are all behind a gem or questwall. They are not necessary for play, they are farming rewards.

And even with that being said, you could easily just go “hey, I wanna go loaf around the world and do absolutely silly things” and still get the cash needed to get that scarf or w/e you wanted eventually.

Astralporing.1957:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

You understand that those things you consider optional is what many people prefer to do / go for and the things you see as important (like the LS) might be things other people don’t care for.

I am not sure if the problem is I am not being clear enough or you’re purposefully misquoting what I am saying from some reason. So lets try this again for the third time. What I am calling optional isnt the items or acquiring items, or even any choice of play style. What I am calling optional is THE GRIND.

What you are not understanding is that everything in the game is optional. Nobody’s forcing you to even level your characters after all – you can stay at level 1 and play only TP if that’s what you like (and there are people that do exactly that). So saying that grind is optional doesn’t actually mean anything. So what? It’s still a grind.

granted english is a second language for me but man am I really that hard to understand.

here we go again. I will try to put this a simple as I can.

My argument is not item X is optional like you seem to have understood?

my argument is earning item X through grind is optional. you can also earn item X through non-grindy means

I will keep it this simple in the hopes I dont get misunderstood because I elaborated too much on what I am trying to say. If you need more details ask and I will provide.

There are some things people need to understand here.

An MMO needs to provide goals to people. Its simply not going to work if at some point people have nothing new to earn. Sure some dedicated players may still play but most would quit if there is simply nothing new they want.

With that in mind its just not feasible to have everything easily earn-able within a play sessions or two. going with 7 armor pieces and 6 weapons per character on average thats about 13 cosmetic pieces per character which at a couple of days each would provide you with a month of game-play per alt.

Sure new things would be release now and then but how many would be a better fit than something you already have?

Could any MMO survive if you get to a point when there is nothing you desire anymore?

Simply speaking you need to make each item last way more then a couple of days. What people seem to mix is if something takes a long time to earn it doesnt automatically mean its grindy.

Grind is by definition something that requires repetition and is unenjoyable by the player. What Anet did to avoid that is literally allow you to play anything you desire to get that reward you’re after.

Sure the quickest way to that reward is repeating boring activities. But the shortest way isnt the only way. There are as many ways to get to that reward as there are things to do in this game. No developer can ever remove grind by making it very easy to earn every reward the game has to offer because those rewards cannot be replenished fast enough in anycase.

The only thing they can do is make sure you dont have to repeat boring gameplay to get them and thats exactly what Gw2 did masterfully. The only thing you need to do is slow down. These are cosmetic rewards, you will not be penalized if it takes you 2 months to earn something that could take you as little as a week if you grinded.

The choice is yours.

Galen Grey.4709:

~

“Grind is your option” No, as soon as my objective is a cosmetic, it is ‘the’ only option (for most interesting cosmetics). Because if I want it, there is not some content I need to do (doing that is what I would see as the hunt for the item), no, there is an amount of gold I need, and so whatever I do is to get the gold to get the item, and that is what makes it a grind.

“No matter what it is you’re hunting down there are several non grindy ways to get them. You choose to ignore them.” No there are several ways to get the gold, and no matter what content I choose, I am doing those things for gold. So grinding it for gold.

It’s also not that I simply get the gold while playing along (well, except if you like the grindy content that makes you most money). But then again, I am also not asking for it to be easy to get the items.. what that would mean.

“If not please let me know what it is you’re hunting that you see no way of acquiring without grinding.”
I am not hunting any specific item, usually I simply come across an item I like and set my goal for it, but not in GW2 because of the way it works. Anyway, simply let’s take an average item from the cash-shop. I would like the Mist Herald Back Item Skin Set (well I would prefer a white version, but whatever). That is 500 gems = 97,05. And that is what it is.. a gold-number. There is no way for me to directly work towards that item without diving in a gold-grind. Also making 100 gold ‘just by playing’ usually takes me multiple months.. but then again, that is also not hunting down the item, is it? So what would ‘hunting down’ this item mean in GW2? It would mean doing dungeons for gold, and doing silverwastes for gold and then when I would have the Item and would go for the next one, Lord Faren’s Rapier Skin it’s another 100 gold so I would again have to start doing other things for gold, and so on, and so on. And that my friend, is a grind. Whether you like to accept it or not.

“Drytop access is locked behind a gear score you can only get after fully gearing a char in ascended gear. Now getting Ascended gear would be a mandatory grind for you because until you get that the game would just as well be death for you. you have no way of playing what you want” Now following what you say about cosmetics (that logic).. this is untrue. There is still a lot you can do other than dry-top. Then you can simply do those other things and earn the gear you need for dry-top that way. It’s not like you need to do dry-top. That is completely optional.

So the difference in your example is that you could fall behind in playing with your friends because of the gear, but let’s be fair, most mmo’s that use grind for gear to unlock content usually only have the real grind for a small part, and the last part of the content. Like the top raid dungeons. So even then you are only one tier behind, and as soon as an expansion gets released its again easy to get the gear until the then highest level content (also a good moment to catch up with your friends). So the difference would be, not being able to play the highest lever content together with your friends because you do not yet have that level gear. If you want to play that content with some friends that is.

“you’re forced to keep up. take a 6 month break and you’re guaranteed to never be able to play with your friends ever again.” So now ‘required’ is about playing with friends. And while I did not play all MMO’s out there, I did play multiple and know that in those cases this is not true. There is the leveling process (that also exists in GW2) and is usually pretty easy until the last few levels (where friends can help level faster) and then the gear grind really is only required for a very small part of the game, those highest level raids usually.

“No true, only the rare stuff like lion tickets skins are a grind. everything else with very few exception sell for less then 10g on tp how is getting 10g a grind?” The once selling for a few gold are usually not the ones people who like to collect cosmetics are after. There are still many cosmetics in between those 10 gold and the extreme rare ones of 1700 gold. Also those lion ticket skins are not even the most rare ones and there are many of them. You act like if that is like those few extremely special ones. They aren’t, but when you like to collect cosmetics, those lion ticker skins are the type of skins you are usually after.

“what people are trying to say here is that here you dont have a grind for the things you like to do at all” And what I say is that, that does not make it better and that that is also true for all grind. You don’t have to do dry-top and you don’t have to do the highest level content with your friends.

Zok.4956:

Devata.6589:

Zok.4956:

Devata.6589:

People who leave comments like you do seem to think stats is what it’s all about and should be all about for everybody, but thats simply not how it works in an MMO. Many people care more for a cool looking mini then ascended stats.

This thread has the title: “No grind philosophy”

The communicated “not grind philosopy” from A-Net for GW2 is ONLY about stats/levels. It is not about looks, achievements, legendaries, etc, etc…

Thats why some people focus on stats when we talk about the “no grind philosophy”, because for everything else there is no “no grind philosopy” in this game.

Anet indeed said that (2,5 years after release) but if you read OP’s post he clearly talks about cosmetics, and besides that, you see this being mentioned in many grind topics, also those that don’t have the name ‘no grind philosophy’.

But this thread has the title “no grind philosophy” . So, are you saying, OP choose a wrong title because he/she did not understand A-Nets “no grind philosophy” ?

Does it really matter? Maybe Anet use a misleading term making people believe it did mean they wanted to prevent as much grind as possible. Because that is what the term says does it not? It does not say… ’No grind for stats or at least being able to grind for it in multiple ways philosophy’. What is pretty much as Colin described it a month or so ago.

It’s the same as saying “no meat philosophy” on a can with soup. And then when people complain there is a lot of pork meat in it the company would come with the statement “Or no meat philosophy only concerns cow meat”. Is it really strange that is people read “No meat philosophy” they expect the company to simply not want to use meat and if they see “no grind philosophy” they expect the company to keep the grind to a minimum? I don’t think that is strange at all.

So if anything is wrong here, it’s how Anet defines the term, not how OP uses it.

More importantly is the question if it matters? Does it matter what Anet did mean? They might not ever talked in any way about limiting grind and still peoples complain about disliking the grind are completely relevant. It’s the entertainment industry so if people find something not entertaining that matters.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Everything the OP lists is a CHOICE….you don’t have to do any of those. If you’re sick of it you can STOP doing it at any point.

I would choose Anet’s type of “grind” (fully optional) over other developers that REQUIRE you do the GRIND to advance the game…..

90% of the items in this game are not required. For 90% of those you can grind if you want them in a reasonable timeframe. So yes, you don’t have to grind. You can stick with the 10% of the items you don’t need to grind for.

But the truth is that players want to get more, why shouldn’t they? ANet certainly incentivises farming those items (or buying them). You don’t have to grind anything. But after players got the 10% you don’t need to grind for, they look around and ask themselves what is left to do. And the answer is almost certainly “grind for x item”.

Cuddy.6247:

……I spent maybe 8 hours the other day in EotM on my day off and walked away with a grand total of like 25 gold. That’s absurd. I can get more gold by grabbing a second job.

I find your choice of game mode to earn gold more absurd than comparing playing a game to a RL job to turn $ into gold (tho that comparison is pretty absurd). It’s always been “easier” to earn RL $ and buy gold via gems so I’m not sure what the complaint here is.

I’m assuming you were playing EotM to earn karma, but since telling us how much karma you earned didn’t back you complaint, you forgot to mention that….or you just have very poor info on how to earn gold in GW2?

Devata.6589:

Cuddy.6247:

Jelle.2807:

Just popping in to say I don’t mind the grind really. So long as it’s for marginal stat increase (ascended gear) or cosmetics, yeah ’s fine by me.

What I don’t like is excessive RNG. I would rather grind for something I know will, for example take me 20 hours to complete, rather than something random that’ll take an average of 15 hours, but might also take 50 hours if you’re unlucky. When effort does not match reward, things be unfair.
Looking at you precursors.

Yeah this has always kittened me off, and it’s why I liked Guild Wars more than Guild Wars 2. At least in Guild Wars, you had a really good chance of getting Dhuum’s Scythe if you ran UWSC for 4-6 months. Speedrun dungeons, WvW, PvP or even MF gambling for 4-6 months in this game…gives you no good chance at anything, really. It’s a crying shame that you can’t work for your rewards.

Part of the reason I went casual is I spent over a year speedrunning dungeons just to get Dusk to no avail. Money to buy Dusk was acquired and I still never saw a precursor. I spent a year trying. That just seems at a certain point to be unethical in the way they designed RNG. Hell, I still don’t have Sunrise to go with it because I can’t be bothered to buy Dawn or farm against the treadmill anymore. Much like the precursor hunt, though, if there were some sort of way for me to get a reward for my effort rather than banging my head against the wall praying to RNGesus, I will enjoy this game a lot more.

I’m thankful they’re finally coming to grips with replacing RNG with provisional grind.

This is a little strange statement. "Part of the reason I went casual is I spent over a year speedrunning dungeons just to get Dusk to no avail. Money to buy Dusk was acquired and I still never saw a precursor. ".

So if you love grind so much, what was then the problem? You grinded the gold? And the fact that it’s not possible to work directly towards the item you want (other then the gold-grind) is what I talk about all the time. These items for example do indeed drop but with such a extreme low drop-rate that you can’t work towards them anymore leaving grind (for gold) as the only real viable option to get them.

So what you say you dislike results in what you say you like. Reasonable drop-rates lets you also work towards an item. Just as putting items behind specific content does like chest, or putting them behind challenging content or in fun crafts. That are the types of things I am asking for. But would decrease the grind.

You say you are happy with more grind because that allows you to work towards something.. yes in the same was as it already does ‘grind gold, grind gold’ but at the same time you say you like the ‘change to grind’ because you dislike the current RNG system… that results in grind.

So what is it? You liked it that you had to grind gold for your legendary and want more of that? Or you dislike the grind and want less of it???

I like this, and why I find this thread hilarious.

“This grind suxorz cause the item I want didnt drop, so instead I have to use the GOLD I got from the grinding to just BUY it. Ugh…”

Grabbing popcorn and watching ppl trying to force their opinions into other ppl

Khalisto.5780:

Grabbing popcorn and watching ppl trying to force their opinions into other ppl