Guild Wars 2

fireflyry.7023:

Galen Grey.4709:

now at the end of the day whether the game is grindy or not depends on your play style.

This is used again and again as rebuttal for games like Grind Wars 2.

“It’s totally up to how you want to play…..stand in a field all day with your rusty spoon wacking on potatoes…no grind at all…”.

The vast majority of people who play games like this want the best loot they can get. It’s an inherent part of the genres mechanic, the need to attain. The most efficient way to garner or attain such loot is too repeat content over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again in the most efficient way possible.

This game dictates that. Repetition of content is a core mechanic in order to attain reward.

That is grind….

Bingo thats exactly the crux of the matter, people want the best loot AND they want to get it in the most efficient and quickest way possible.

That AND is the core of this whole thing.

If you remove all the fluff a game at is core is simply fun activities with a reward that has a time cost.

If your vision of the mists weapon requires 250 ectos to build its not because it physically requires 250 ectos to build, its because game designers wanted people to spend say 100 days playing to get a vision of the mists weapon and they broke down that into a list of 4 items based on what they think an average player will take to earn all of them.

Problem is some players dont have the patience to spend those 100 days to earn their weapon so they decide to do it in 10 by doing what you said. They repeat the most profitable content over and over and over again for 10 days and then use what they earned to get their weapon. Like you said that feels super grindy. Thats their choice though. You dont have to repeat any specific content over and over and over and over again to earn 250 ectos do you? you can mix and match all the content in the game and you’d still earn the 1.5g per day you need to earn that vision of the mists weapon in 100 days.

The thing you seem to be missing is the game doesnt dictate repetition at all. quite the opposite in fact. if it wanted to dictate repetition than ectos would only be available as say drops from the arah dungeon. Hence you’d have no choice if you wanted one of these weapons other then to repeat arah until you got all your 250 ecto. The fact you can get ectos literally playing anything the game has to offer is exactly the opposite of what you’re saying. That human nature makes it so most people dismiss they have the option to skip grind and instead grid like crazy to get it done in a fraction of the time isnt exactly the games fault.

Do you really think if they made it so you could be done getting the best loot as you call it in a month that would fix the issue? would you play an MMO with no better loot to be had ever for years to come?

fireflyry.7023:

That’s redundant rebuttal.

Grind walks hand in hand with efficiency of attaining reward. Your argument is that players have the choice to attain such rewards otherwise in a vastly inferior manner, if not pure coincidence…so that negates grind.

Grind by it’s very nature negates such argument.

You’re making the assumption the shortest time to earn the reward is the baseline when clearly it isnt.

Think of it in real word terms.

Say it takes 1 year of when you start working to afford a car.

Some people can also choose to work 3 jobs and get that car in 4 months instead.
Does that mean that to have a car you need to kill yourself with work?

no you can live a normal life and still get a car, its not a problem. That you have the option to cut that down drastically by making major sacrifices is entirely your choice and not something to crusade over against car companies for them to drop car prices so that people dont have to essentially slave in order to buy one. Simply speaking this choice is just that a choice not the base line you compare buying the car to.

Andred.1087:

33 pages of “Colin said this” vs “No, he said that”

WTF does it matter what he said or what he meant?? And do any of you realize that the argument you are having is actually about what “grind” means, which is entirely subjective and differs from player to player? Also, to the people arguing there is a grind in this game, why don’t you just kittening do something else if you don’t like it? This is the stupidest thread, and you people are arguing for no kittening reason other than nobody will let it go.

Specifically the blame for this thread falls on the people who continually refer to Colin’s statements in the Manifesto as if they were in any way a legally binding agreement. Guess what? Things change in 4 years! Even if you’re 100% right about what he said, and not twisting it for your own argument (which is a joke, because that’s exactly what you’re doing), who cares if things are different now? That’s how the universe works! If you can’t deal with it, your life is going to look like this thread. Is that what you want?

So, seeing as no amount of asinine debating is going to change the reality of the game, those of you who are legitimately upset about this are left with a couple options:

1. Get over it and stop playing GW2
2. Get over it and keep playing GW2

I swear… this thread moved past constructiveness long ago and should be locked ASAP. This is just ridiculous, and you should all feel bad for continuing to engage in this pointless conversation.

“And do any of you realize that the argument you are having is actually about what “grind” means” No, those defending it are having the discussion what grind is. The other people simply explain what they experience in the game as grind and how that effects the game. You see there are many people who feel that, some of them who indeed left (and come back with HoT).

“Also, to the people arguing there is a grind in this game, why don’t you just kittening do something else if you don’t like it?” sure, the same old argument if you don’t have an argument. You could of course say that for every complain on forum and as we would dismiss any complain why not simply remove the forums. But if all complains would be ignored the game would be in worse shape.

I agree with you about those going on about what Colin said and promised way outside of what was relevant for the thread. But luckily that seems to be over now.

Galen Grey.4709:

Do you really think if they made it so you could be done getting the best loot as you call it in a month that would fix the issue? would you play an MMO with no better loot to be had ever for years to come?

Of course not but again that’s ignoring the issue of grind as I see it. Repetition of content in order to most efficiently attain reward.

You just seem to argue that players have the option of gimping themselves and that this is a valid rebuttal for the games obvious grind. Your not forced to grind…take ten years to get your legendary…all good

Hey your ideology is beautiful….while we skip through the tulips on our unicorns and prance over rivers of chocolate. In saying it’s way out of touch with the topic of actual grind. Stating there’s another way to attain such goals slower really detracts from the fact it exists, is WAY faster, and could be changed to be less of a snore fest.

Ignoring it solves nothing.

pdavis.8031:

Repeating content is VERY different from grinding.

Nope, sorry.

ANet’s definition of the word is, “Repeating the exact same content in the exact same place to obtain desirable items or outcomes is grind.” The use of the word has evolved at this point, at least in this forum, to, “Needing to repeat content one finds boring in order to obtain desirable items or outcomes is grind.”

In the poster-adopted definition, the emphasis is on the subjective experience of, “I’m bored!” The discrepancy in definition is why ANet can be correct in saying the game is not grindy, while players are correct in saying it is. ANet is welcome to their definition. However, this does not change the fact that some posters are bored with what they have to do in order to get the outcomes they want. That’s the real issue, not, “What does this word mean?”

fireflyry.7023:

Galen Grey.4709:

Do you really think if they made it so you could be done getting the best loot as you call it in a month that would fix the issue? would you play an MMO with no better loot to be had ever for years to come?

Of course not but again that’s ignoring the issue of grind as I see it. Repetition of content in order to most efficiently attain reward.

You just seem to argue that players have the option of gimping themselves and that this is a valid rebuttal for the games obvious grind. Your not forced to grind…take ten years to get your legendary…all good

Hey your ideology is beautiful….while we skip through the tulips on our unicorns and prance over rivers of chocolate. In saying it’s way out of touch with the topic of actual grind. Stating there’s another way to attain such goals slower really detracts from the fact it exists, is WAY faster, and could be changed to be less of a snore fest.

Ignoring it solves nothing.

mmm can we keep the rivers of chocolate, that sounds awesome

as for solving something thats not that easy really.
lets say it takes 2 years to earn a legendary weapon casually (10 is an exaggeration) and it takes what? 2 months to get it done the grindy way?

now exactly what do you want to achieve? get those 2 years of casual play down to 2 months? will that help? will people go for 2 months of casual play for 2 weeks for grind?

Or perhaps your aim is to reduce those 2 months of grind to 2 weeks because 2 months of grind is just too much… fine what will you do after those 2 weeks? grind for another legendary? and then another and then another? what happens when you get them all?

Your really missing my point my friend.

I have no qualms or opinion on the length of time taken in order to attain reward. I couldn’t care less. I take issue that currently the most efficient way to attain reward is repetition of content….again….repetition of content.

That’s it.

Anyway we seem to be talking in circles but good points and goodnight. Work and all that.

IndigoSundown.5419:

pdavis.8031:

Repeating content is VERY different from grinding.

Nope, sorry.

ANet’s definition of the word is, “Repeating the exact same content in the exact same place to obtain desirable items or outcomes is grind.” The use of the word has evolved at this point, at least in this forum, to, “Needing to repeat content one finds boring in order to obtain desirable items or outcomes is grind.”

In the poster-adopted definition, the emphasis is on the subjective experience of, “I’m bored!” The discrepancy in definition is why ANet can be correct in saying the game is not grindy, while players are correct in saying it is. ANet is welcome to their definition. However, this does not change the fact that some posters are bored with what they have to do in order to get the outcomes they want. That’s the real issue, not, “What does this word mean?”

I dont really see a distinction between “Needing to repeat content one finds boring” and “Repeating the exact same content in the exact same place”

even if at first “Repeating the exact same content in the exact same place” might be okey because you actually enjoy the content in question after a while it will become boring unless you can just vary it up which is what Gw2 allows you to do. If you have played all content the game has to offer and you want to earn an ascended thing or a legandary each time you login you can choose to play something different. Yes you’re still repeating stuff thats unavoidable but you dont have to repeat the same thing again for months unless you want to. Today I can do events in queensdale and tomorrow in frostgorge, the day after I can do WvW and then switch over to do jumping puzzles and then world bosses with some personal story on a secondary character and then perhaps some dungeons and maybe a fractal or two…. all the while I am making progress towards my ascended thing and/or legendary weapon.

Devata.6589:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I find this conversation hilarious because the same one is going on in two other forums for games that I play right now. The Exact Same Conversation.

Not sure why that is then hilarious but it for sure is a problem you see in more games. In fact, because this is a problem in multiple games this game even used it to promote the game with the ‘no-grind-philosophy’.

It’s hilarious because you don’t see it in more games lately, it has ALWAYS been there. The fact is that players are able to consume content far faster than developers are able to program it. I would love for a lot of these players that complain about grind to go play some of the PC games from the late 80’s and early 90’s. “Over 60 hours of gameplay” back in the day meant 60 hours of grind and 60 hours of actually playing.

fireflyry.7023:

Your really missing my point my friend.

I have no qualms or opinion on the length of time taken in order to attain reward. I couldn’t care less. I take issue that currently the most efficient way to attain reward is repetition of content….again….repetition of content.

That’s it.

Anyway we seem to be talking in circles but good points and goodnight. Work and all that.

nahh you’re not being honest now.. length of time is exactly the issue.

Keep in mind efficiency is a subjective term. It changes based on what you value.
I value having fun so for me the most efficient way to get a legendary weapon is to spend 2 years playing the content I enjoy doing.

You seem to value length of time the most so for you the most efficient way to get a legendary weapon is to repeat the highest rewarding content until you have enough money to get it.

If what you’re saying is true and you couldnt care less about length of time what is the problem to avoid repeating content and instead play whatever you enjoy doing when you enjoy doing it?

Galen Grey.4709:

You seem to value length of time the most so for you the most efficient way to get a legendary weapon is to repeat the highest rewarding content until you have enough money to get it.

That’s the meta mechanic.

Your rebuttal is preferential choice. That doesnt make sense and ignores the issue merely because there is a minority option to wack on trash mobs for 2 years and get the same goal.

Your getting personal with semantics at which point I say good day to you sir. Have fun ignoring dungeon runs and SW farms.

The grind in this game is the “end content” for hardcore gamers… not hardcore in the meaning they are good but rather that they spend a lot of time on the game (people able to spend more than 5 hours per day in this game are not the majority).
The core design of the game was from the beginning that everybody can access to everything, whatever their dedication. Basically if you can play 5 hours per week you are still able to join every game activity. Now if you want to spend more time the devs have to give you something to do and to get. That is where grind appear. They could choose as other games to make the old content obsolete regularly but no they decided on adding things slowly so that casual gamers are not lost when they log in and all their effort in the past are still meaningful.
But in the meantime they also spread the rewards everywhere in the game so that by doing any activity you are able to get more or less the same things… more or less as there are some specific tasks leading to specific rewards.

Now since ascended was the focus of the discussion in between quote battles, don’t forget that this tier was presented as something to have to do while you’re hitting the legendary wall. In other words, if you are not lucky enough or too poor to get a precursor but still have plenty of materials you have a goal to reach. They also made a clever thing which is daily craft meaning that rich player will want to pay to get their item faster … making other players not interested in BiS richer and throwing money through TP taxes.
The other successful thing they did is to make people want absolutely these items while not making them more powerful (or quasi useless in sub 80 zones). In fact it is always the case when something is added in the game : people want it more than anything. The good thing compared to other MMO is that this new thing is far from mandatory… so hardcore player have something to do now while the others set their own long term goal.

Every MMO has grind but GW2 is clever enough to make different grind almost equivalent in term of gold while competing for an extra (under RNG or not). Look at the situation of silk (because that was one of the last complain) : You have literally plenty of source in the game (zone as DT or SW, dungeon, WvW, PvP reward track, World boss, champ train, JP…) simply because reward are unified under the “masterwork rarity or better” loots. You may argue the reward flow is different but I’d answer that profitability and fun are not synonyms. And even in that case as I said before there are also places in the game where you can drop ascended chests, you are free to join them as well.

So to the question where does grind start I’d answer : “when people prefer to be efficient and do activities they don’t enjoy, only to possess something they think they absolutely need.”

Ranael.6423:

The grind in this game is the “end content” for hardcore gamers… not hardcore in the meaning they are good but rather that they spend a lot of time on the game (people able to spend more than 5 hours per day in this game are not the majority).
The core design of the game was from the beginning that everybody can access to everything, whatever their dedication. Basically if you can play 5 hours per week you are still able to join every game activity. Now if you want to spend more time the devs have to give you something to do and to get. That is where grind appear. They could choose as other games to make the old content obsolete regularly but no they decided on adding things slowly so that casual gamers are not lost when they log in and all their effort in the past are still meaningful.
But in the meantime they also spread the rewards everywhere in the game so that by doing any activity you are able to get more or less the same things… more or less as there are some specific tasks leading to specific rewards.

Now since ascended was the focus of the discussion in between quote battles, don’t forget that this tier was presented as something to have to do while you’re hitting the legendary wall. In other words, if you are not lucky enough or too poor to get a precursor but still have plenty of materials you have a goal to reach. They also made a clever thing which is daily craft meaning that rich player will want to pay to get their item faster … making other players not interested in BiS richer and throwing money through TP taxes.
The other successful thing they did is to make people want absolutely these items while not making them more powerful (or quasi useless in sub 80 zones). In fact it is always the case when something is added in the game : people want it more than anything. The good thing compared to other MMO is that this new thing is far from mandatory… so hardcore player have something to do now while the others set their own long term goal.

Every MMO has grind but GW2 is clever enough to make different grind almost equivalent in term of gold while competing for an extra (under RNG or not). Look at the situation of silk (because that was one of the last complain) : You have literally plenty of source in the game (zone as DT or SW, dungeon, WvW, PvP reward track, World boss, champ train, JP…) simply because reward are unified under the “masterwork rarity or better” loots. You may argue the reward flow is different but I’d answer that profitability and fun are not synonyms. And even in that case as I said before there are also places in the game where you can drop ascended chests, you are free to join them as well.

So to the question where does grind start I’d answer : “when people prefer to be efficient and do activities they don’t enjoy, only to possess something they think they absolutely need.”

I couldn’t have said it better!

Thats the point I’ve been trying to make this whole time. Thank you.

Galen Grey.4709:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

I dont really see a distinction between “Needing to repeat content one finds boring” and “Repeating the exact same content in the exact same place”

That’s too bad. ANet obviously does, because that distinction is what allows them to state that GW2 is not “grindy.”

even if at first “Repeating the exact same content in the exact same place” might be okey because you actually enjoy the content in question after a while it will become boring unless you can just vary it up which is what Gw2 allows you to do.

That works for some people. It obviously does not work for everyone. For some, it’s going to depend on what meta-level of the game you’re looking at. Take Bloodstone Dust, which drops from champion bags. You can get those bags anywhere there are champions, and in chests in Dry Top and SW. On the micro level, you’re doing different things, but on the macro level you’re for the most part running around in a herd. If you try to break the herd play-style … well, either you won’t succeed (tower and keep capture) or the herd will get on your case. If you don’t like herd play, you can SW, but now you’re down to just one type of content for Dust.

If you have played all content the game has to offer and you want to earn an ascended thing or a legandary each time you login you can choose to play something different. Yes you’re still repeating stuff thats unavoidable but you dont have to repeat the same thing again for months unless you want to.

Irrelevant. See above. Most of what GW2 offers is the same on the macro level, different on the micro level. If you’re the type of player who perceives on the micro level, you’re fine. If you aren’t, the sameness of what’s offered gets boring fast.

Today I can do events in queensdale and tomorrow in frostgorge, the day after I can do WvW and then switch over to do jumping puzzles and then world bosses with some personal story on a secondary character and then perhaps some dungeons and maybe a fractal or two…. all the while I am making progress towards my ascended thing and/or legendary weapon.

Some responses in italics, above.

Yeah, well, I vary things up also, and I’m not making progress towards my BiS gear except insofar as laurels for trinkets go. Why? Because I’d rather watch paint peel than craft in GW2, it’s that boring, and the promised alternative method to get weapons/armor – drops – is the 3rd biggest joke in GW2. After over a year, I have gotten exactly zero Ascended drops that have stats I’d want to use — and I don’t just use glass gear. At that rate, I will never gear one character.

You’re also failing to take into account that different players have different perspectives, different goals and different priorities. You cannot negate someone else’s experience of boredom by saying that you don’t get bored. All that does is establish that boredom is not an objective experience, which we already knew.

Ok. I’ll do my best to keep as much drama out of this post. Please understand, everything I say is my opinion.

So, I’ve been struggling with this leveling system since I got this game about four days ago. Please understand and take into consideration, that I came from WoW and have played that game off and on for 8 years.
I came to this game, hoping it would be my “WoW Killer”. Unfortunately it’s not.

But my real concern of this game, before I got it, I watched the promo videos. And how the devs said that they don’t like the fact you have to grind. Let’s talk about that.
An example; I help this town by filling up the heart. A few minutes later, it goes under attack by Centaurs (which starts a Random Event). I defend it. All is well.
20 minutes later, it goes under attack the same way(the same Random Event). How is this not grindy? The same can be said for the escort quests. I’ve already helped this group get through a ‘mine field’ of mobs. Why.. would I want to do it again? Just for the XP? That’s grindy.
Doing/killing the same thing over and over, is grindy.

And there’s another thing that feels very grindy. In the 25-35 area for Humans, I constantly see “Boss X up” in map chat. I kill the boss. Why does it resurrect 5-15 minutes later? It’s not being spawned by a player as a random event. It naturally spawns like any normal mob.

Maybe I’m missing something here, but it feels I’m being… well… not told the truth by the devs. I’m trying not to bash them (as part of the rules).

Grind is everything that gw2 was from the beginning. It’s only growing. Why did you think there was no grind in the first place?

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Devata.6589:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I find this conversation hilarious because the same one is going on in two other forums for games that I play right now. The Exact Same Conversation.

Not sure why that is then hilarious but it for sure is a problem you see in more games. In fact, because this is a problem in multiple games this game even used it to promote the game with the ‘no-grind-philosophy’.

It’s hilarious because you don’t see it in more games lately, it has ALWAYS been there.

The option maybe, but hunting down items in the mmo’s I played (including WoW) was a hunt, not a grind. All items I did go for where a hunt at worse some where a farm.

So I never had this grind you have in GW2 in WoW (as an example).

“I would love for a lot of these players that complain about grind to go play some of the PC games from the late 80’s and early 90’s. “Over 60 hours of gameplay” back in the day meant 60 hours of grind and 60 hours of actually playing.”
When I see people using bad excuses a lot in a topic you know who is trying to defend what is wrong. So far in this topic those defending the grind.

Start debating terms and semantic, tell people to go play another game and now point to games that are worse. There are probably worse games, that does not make it right.

The game was always intended to have grind, even when they first developed the game. They didn’t lie, people just misinterpreted the way they said it. Unfortunately due to the way people (in general, esp on the internet) interpreted what was said out of context in places, it caused a backlash between Anet and the community which has had negative connotations on communications to this day.

There is a widespread discussion more recently here for further info
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/first

The devs said (in their promo video) they didn’t like the fact you had to grind. They said they weren’t going to make the game like other MMOs.

You don’t have to stay there and do that event each time it comes up. Move on and do other events.

As to the world boss, they have pretty good loot. Each one gives at least one rare if you are a high enough level and have a chance for an exotic, some with a unique skin.

I find that dynamic events often don’t spawn frequently enough. I don’t necessarily have to do them, and if you’re in that area too long, you’ll see it plenty of times, but you can wander to where there’s more to do. (Not very heroic, I know, but you’re a busy person with maps to fill!)

I find it’s really easy to get distracted by the game, sometimes. You could be out exploring the map, find a resource node, then another node, then an event chain pops up and drags you halfway across the map, then another node, vista,… and somehow you end up back where you started two hours ago. =P

Point is, you might have to force yourself to break away from spots you’ve done and continue to less populated areas. You’ll get exploration XP, and the mobs have bonus experience because they’ve been unkilled.

Also, welcome to the game!

Ranael.6423:

So to the question where does grind start I’d answer : “when people prefer to be efficient and do activities they don’t enjoy, only to possess something they think they absolutely need.”

Well I do not do those activities (the grind). But when I would like to hunt down items it’s my only choice. So I see the grind is there, I don’t do it but then are left with a more boring game.

Grind is what you make of it. Don’t like repeating the same dynamic event, move. Anyways Colin, the head of the game, recently defined what they considered to be grind in other games and that was what they were trying to avoid here, not whatever a player doesn’t like to do repeatedly simply to make the most gold or farm a particular mat.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/5#post4733458
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/5#post4733571

Nobody is forcing you to do those events over and over. I agree some of the timers on some events are way to short. Also what is preventing you from just moving on? The emphasis of leveling in this game is to go out and explore.

You need to throw out the notion of the “I should go from heart hub to heart hub.” There is no direct path you should or have to take. In the end, you are never going to completely remove a grind in any MMO. Its always going to take time to accomplish something, or else it wouldn’t be something worth accomplishing.

People CHOOSE TO GRIND and then complain about it.

There are very few things you can deliberately advance towards that you can’t advance towards somewhere else — maybe not with the same efficiency, but progress all the same.

Grind-as-repetition is largely self-inflicted.

I see. I didn’t know there was already a lengthy discussion. From what I’ve seen from players, people were OK with having to do the same task over and over to level up.

Benie.9312:

The devs said (in their promo video) they didn’t like the fact you had to grind. They said they weren’t going to make the game like other MMOs.

are you talking about manifesto?

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

he lied

Benie.9312:

I see. I didn’t know there was already a lengthy discussion. From what I’ve seen from players, people were OK with having to do the same task over and over to level up.

Not saying you are doing something wrong, but I have never had to do an event more than once or twice to progress…Unless of course I chose to do so. If you stay in a specific area for too long, of course you are going to see an event pop up more than once. Go out and explore and find other area’s to level in, you are not limited to one area, or even 1 particular zone for that matter.

Sorry but when you raise a reputation in WoW to get a mini that you “hunt” by doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month you call it a farm but doing so in GW2 you call it a grind…
Did you grind or hunt Mawdrey? Did you grind or hunt your Ascended gear?

Anyway you will reject that comment saying I just debate the semantic.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

You don’t have to stay there and do that event each time it comes up. Move on and do other events.

THIS ^

You don’t have to stay in the same spot of the same map to do the same event over and over and over again, unless you want to of course. The world is massive. Go somewhere else and do something else.

Ranael.6423:

Sorry but when you raise a reputation in WoW to get a mini that you “hunt” by doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month you call it a farm but doing so in GW2 you call it a grind…
Did you grind or hunt Mawdrey? Did you grind or hunt your Ascended gear?

Anyway you will reject that comment saying I just debate the semantic.

Mawdrey was a massive grind…. Are you saying otherwise? Good luck with Foxfires post nerf. Of course I bought half of mine on the TP as it’s nearly impossible to gather them on your own due to RNG.

Benie.9312:

Ok. I’ll do my best to keep as much drama out of this post. Please understand, everything I say is my opinion.

So, I’ve been struggling with this leveling system since I got this game about four days ago. Please understand and take into consideration, that I came from WoW and have played that game off and on for 8 years.
I came to this game, hoping it would be my “WoW Killer”. Unfortunately it’s not.

But my real concern of this game, before I got it, I watched the promo videos. And how the devs said that they don’t like the fact you have to grind. Let’s talk about that.
An example; I help this town by filling up the heart. A few minutes later, it goes under attack by Centaurs (which starts a Random Event). I defend it. All is well.
20 minutes later, it goes under attack the same way(the same Random Event). How is this not grindy? The same can be said for the escort quests. I’ve already helped this group get through a ‘mine field’ of mobs. Why.. would I want to do it again? Just for the XP? That’s grindy.
Doing/killing the same thing over and over, is grindy.

And there’s another thing that feels very grindy. In the 25-35 area for Humans, I constantly see “Boss X up” in map chat. I kill the boss. Why does it resurrect 5-15 minutes later? It’s not being spawned by a player as a random event. It naturally spawns like any normal mob.

Maybe I’m missing something here, but it feels I’m being… well… not told the truth by the devs. I’m trying not to bash them (as part of the rules).

It would be better if creature were permanently dead forever once killed… but then you wouldn’t have too much to do in the game since after more than two years every single creature has been killed….

That said, you are not supposed to stay in the same part of the map through your leveling. Explore the world and find events you’ve never done, I’m quite confident to say there is more XP scattered in every Events in the game than needed to reach level 80.

You feel grind because you’ve played every thing theres to offer.

better just afk till exp or something

Sir Alric.5078:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

You don’t have to stay there and do that event each time it comes up. Move on and do other events.

THIS ^

You don’t have to stay in the same spot of the same map to do the same event over and over and over again, unless you want to of course. The world is massive. Go somewhere else and do something else.

actually it’s do the same in different location

Aidenwolf.5964:

Ranael.6423:

Sorry but when you raise a reputation in WoW to get a mini that you “hunt” by doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month you call it a farm but doing so in GW2 you call it a grind…
Did you grind or hunt Mawdrey? Did you grind or hunt your Ascended gear?

Anyway you will reject that comment saying I just debate the semantic.

Mawdrey was a massive grind…. Are you saying otherwise? Good luck with Foxfires post nerf. Of course I bought half of mine on the TP as it’s nearly impossible to gather them on your own due to RNG.

I think what they are referring to is that ones wasn’t considered a grind, because they enjoyed doing it, and therefore saw it as a hunt. Whereas someone who didn’t like doing it, but did it anyway it was a grind.

Again going back to if you are enjoying whatever you are doing, it’s not really a grind. And if you don’t like it, but do it anyway, then it’s going to be a grind.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Ranael.6423:

Sorry but when you raise a reputation in WoW to get a mini that you “hunt” by doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month you call it a farm but doing so in GW2 you call it a grind…
Did you grind or hunt Mawdrey? Did you grind or hunt your Ascended gear?

Anyway you will reject that comment saying I just debate the semantic.

Mawdrey was a massive grind…. Are you saying otherwise? Good luck with Foxfires post nerf. Of course I bought half of mine on the TP as it’s nearly impossible to gather them on your own due to RNG.

But you made it because you hunted it… (I know it is not the same user posting). Stopping at the first or second step (exotic) wasn’t enough (less foxfire required)?

And honestly it is user dependent. I bought some clusters but some people in my guild decided to wait for having enough by cutting trees… and it worked. Did they grind wood or simply farm it?

Ranael.6423:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Ranael.6423:

Sorry but when you raise a reputation in WoW to get a mini that you “hunt” by doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month you call it a farm but doing so in GW2 you call it a grind…
Did you grind or hunt Mawdrey? Did you grind or hunt your Ascended gear?

Anyway you will reject that comment saying I just debate the semantic.

Mawdrey was a massive grind…. Are you saying otherwise? Good luck with Foxfires post nerf. Of course I bought half of mine on the TP as it’s nearly impossible to gather them on your own due to RNG.

But you made it because you hunted it… (I know it is not the same user posting). Stopping at the first or second step (exotic) wasn’t enough (less foxfire required)?

And honestly it is user dependent. I bought some clusters but some people in my guild decided to wait for having enough by cutting trees… and it worked. Did they grind wood or simply farm it?

The hunt portion and crafting requirements were both fun/fine imo but foxfire requires serious commitment of time harvesting and luck in getting foxfires to drop. My Mawdrey is infused (why wouldn’t it be) I would never stop at exotic when crafted backpieces have better stats than exo Mawdrey does.

Aidenwolf.5964:

The hunt portion and crafting requirements were both fun/fine imo but foxfire requires serious commitment of time harvesting and luck in getting foxfires to drop. My Mawdrey is infused (why wouldn’t it be) I would never stop at exotic when crafted backpieces have better stats than exo Mawdrey does.

Well since you already had better items you could have stopped at exo for the skin and decided that the infused version could wait or wasn’t worth the gold you spent or the time to farm the wood.
So I think it perfectly fits the “non-mandatory” property of the grind in the game, doesn’kitten

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.

And like the stuff in the Guild Wars 2 cash shop, they’re cosmetic.

For the rest of the stuff, you can farm for stuff, or you can buy it, or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out. If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.

Glad I don’t play that way.

“I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.”

I did play it and yes there are a few of those items (so little that in a list of about 300 mounts I wanted to hunt down, only 10 where not possible because they were in the cash-shop or on a card game or something like that). Still the majority I can hunt down in the world, while the majority in GW2 I can only grind for. Really I rather have a few items I can’t get at all (without buying) and by far most that I can hunt down in the world. Then to be able to get them almost all but by far most only by grinding (or by buying) and a small number I can directly hunt down in the world.

This is because I want to have fun in the game, and I don’t consider grinding boring, not fun.

“or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out.” Oow I am not talking about all. Just once in a few a new thing gets added that you might like. It would still be out of reach with ‘casual’ playing.

“If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.” Well for me an MMORPG is for a large part about that yes, not only but a large part. I like the hunt. Not a problem in most MMO’s, in fact it’s a lot of fun, but in GW2 that’s just a boring grind. Nice for you, you don’t play that way but many do.. Why do you think Anet does focus so much on cosmetics? Because it knows people like that. But then they also decide to monetize that hoping people with spend cash on it instead of playing for it resulting in people grinding for it but the hunt for it is dead.

Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.

Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.

Anyway I think your entire outlook on this whole not just grind situation but game situation is completely unrealistic. I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.

“Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.” We are talking about playing the game in general (and how that feels grindy to many people), not about how to get one specific item. So sorry but the only thing irrelevant here is this statement of yours.

“Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.” Grind (the problem we talk about) and cash. And it puts most new stuff in the in the cash-shop resulting for a big part of the grind we see. Yes.

“I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.” Are you now saying.. “yeah it’s bad, but better is not possible”?, I think it is and I have seen better examples of things like hunting down items vs grind in other games.

Devata I’ve always said it’s not possible, it’s not something I suddenly thought.

We could go back to our discussion from months ago and I told you even then that the entire industry has changed and the amount of work to make a game today is greater than years ago and the amount of money it takes is greater and the competition is greater. You seemed to be locked in time, if Guild Wars 1 could do it it could work now. I don’t believe it today and I didn’t believe it six months ago.

But the more posts you make on the topic, the more justified I feel in that belief.

Ranael.6423:

Sorry but when you raise a reputation in WoW to get a mini that you “hunt” by doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month you call it a farm but doing so in GW2 you call it a grind…
Did you grind or hunt Mawdrey? Did you grind or hunt your Ascended gear?

Anyway you will reject that comment saying I just debate the semantic.

Can you tell me where I said grinding for reputation was the farming I talked about? I mean, your post is lovely and the perfect straw man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man . I say the worse of the ways you can still hunt items down is farming.. Then YOU, not me, make up in your mind, or spin it around that this farming I mention is grinding for reputation.. And then your response is that it’s stupid to call this grind for reputation farming in a attempt to dismiss my post. Lol.

I mean.. genius.. anybody who can’t see straw mans would have no idea what to say. Sadly enough I so see them a mile away. I do however always wonder if people do it on purpose or if there mind is playing tricks on them and they don’t even notice it them-self.

The farming I talked about are the mini’s that drop from a group of mobs with a low drop chance. Usually it’s still pretty doable because what they then also do it put a large number of those mobs in one spot so people can run in circles killing them until it drops. That is the farming I talked about. That is the most boring version of hunting down (because you do still actively go for one item) an item Luckily it’s then mixed with quest to hunt down items or dungeon rewards and craft rewards. This versus the GW2 way where by far most items you can not directly work towards (hunting down) other then grinding gold to buy them.

Doing what you suggest (doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month for reputation) would indeed be a grind and not hunting down an item, but I personally never did run into that problem when hunting down items. And I think now these things (mini’s and I think also toys) are account-bound that is even less a thing because usually you will gain reputation already with other groups based on your faction or race.

Ranael.6423:

Aidenwolf.5964:

The hunt portion and crafting requirements were both fun/fine imo but foxfire requires serious commitment of time harvesting and luck in getting foxfires to drop. My Mawdrey is infused (why wouldn’t it be) I would never stop at exotic when crafted backpieces have better stats than exo Mawdrey does.

Well since you already had better items you could have stopped at exo for the skin and decided that the infused version could wait or wasn’t worth the gold you spent or the time to farm the wood.
So I think it perfectly fits the “non-mandatory” property of the grind in the game, doesn’kitten

Ascended is BiS grind is required to attain them whether or not you enjoy the activity.

Devata.6589:

You did not have to.. the most bad excuse ever if it comes to grind. But sure your right. If I want the flying carpet in WoW I can do a craft for it, if I want a mini in that game most of them I can earn with quest or as a drop from a dungeon or get with a craft.

Sadly WoW is far less grindy. If you want to grind for something like a carpet you spend maybe a couple of days gathering mats for it. You don’t have to play the auction house; you don’t have to trash farm; you just gather the mats.

Devata.6589:

In GW2 if I want to hunt down such things I have 2 options buy them (what is not playing) or grind gold. So in order to get them I have to grind!

Bingo.

Devata.6589:

Then you say.. but you do not need the items. Sure, in WoW in order to do the highest level raids you need to grind for gear (or at least so they told me, I did never try that). But of course that would then also not be valid because you do not have to do the highest level raids.

Believe me, that argument was made by WoW players all the time. It’s a big part of why I haven’t been subbed to that game for over a year. “Why do you want raid gear if you’re not going to raid?” Well, genius, it’s because every single other PvE activity in the game is about 300% more convenient with the raid gear!

Devata.6589:

So the term grind is a fantasy word, it does not exist (in games). At least by following this “you don’t have to, so it does not count” logic.

I’m glad someone else gets it. By the logic being applied to ascended gear, we don’t even have to hit level 80, either. I mean, 90% of the game’s content is available to you at level 75. All you’re missing out on is Arah, Drytop, and Silvewastes. Why does anyone need to be level 80?

Devata.6589:

Now back to reality, I never said people should not be allowed to grind or games may not allow for grind. The problem here is that it’s the only option IF you want something (like cosmetics) while the game-play of hunting then down in the world has been replaced by the grind. Now you might not consider it grind because it’s optional but that does not change the fact that for other people it does matter. And maybe enough to matter for the game as a whole.

I agree that the means of obtaining cosmetics in this game is also pretty ridiculous. Ideally you would be required to master a really difficult task in order to obtain your cosmetic, and then you would repeat that task maybe once a week until you obtained it. This is why WoW put caps on the number of raids everyone could loot from ever week: so they don’t get the grindy feeling. This game, on the other hand, facilitates and encourages grind.

Devata.6589:

“But you can work on the same goals slowly without grinding too. That then becomes a choice.” Not true, they will add new items faster than you would ever earn the stuff by normal playing (depending on your playstyle) plus that because other people grind, prices will go up meaning those who don’t will always be behind (you want item x, cost 5 gold, you get 5 gold by now it cost 6 gold, you got 6 gold it cost 6,1 and then the next step you manage to get it, meanwhile 5 new items you like were added.).

This is one of the more frustrating arguments because “slowly” is so vague. If by working towards them “slowly” you mean I have to spend 6 weeks working towards them, I’m not that bothered. When I have to wait a year and a half to get my end game gear by playing like a normal person and not a professional gamer, then I think we’ve taken “slowly” to extremes.

Devata.6589:

“But if I were in a game where the only gear better than mine was in a specific dungeon, to get that gear I’d have to run that dungeon repeatedly, which to me IS grind. There is no other option but to run that dungeon.” But that is only IF you want that better gear, so it’s optional, That then becomes a choice. So no grind if I follow what you did say before.

Honestly, running the same dungeon every day would feel like less of a grind than defending forts and killing Mordrem champions in Silverwastes for hours on end every day (which is what active gameplay in my guild has degenerated to).

Devata.6589:

“Someone who likes to hang out in Queensdale can level to 80 in Queensdale. Do you know how few MMOs that’s true of?” Not sure how that is relevant.

Yeah. I don’t remember anyone complaining about leveling being grindy. That’s the one aspect of the game that isn’t a grind. Ironically enough, it’s the one they overhauled and streamlined this past year.

Sir Alric.5078:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

You don’t have to stay there and do that event each time it comes up. Move on and do other events.

THIS ^

You don’t have to stay in the same spot of the same map to do the same event over and over and over again, unless you want to of course. The world is massive. Go somewhere else and do something else.

Go somewhere else and so something else…. to grind gold to buy the item you would like to hunt down.

It’s still grinding gold no matter if you do it here, or there.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Ranael.6423:

Sorry but when you raise a reputation in WoW to get a mini that you “hunt” by doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month you call it a farm but doing so in GW2 you call it a grind…
Did you grind or hunt Mawdrey? Did you grind or hunt your Ascended gear?

Anyway you will reject that comment saying I just debate the semantic.

Mawdrey was a massive grind…. Are you saying otherwise? Good luck with Foxfires post nerf. Of course I bought half of mine on the TP as it’s nearly impossible to gather them on your own due to RNG.

And this is exactly why things are a grind. Because this is true for most items you might like.

Devata.6589:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Ranael.6423:

Sorry but when you raise a reputation in WoW to get a mini that you “hunt” by doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month you call it a farm but doing so in GW2 you call it a grind…
Did you grind or hunt Mawdrey? Did you grind or hunt your Ascended gear?

Anyway you will reject that comment saying I just debate the semantic.

Mawdrey was a massive grind…. Are you saying otherwise? Good luck with Foxfires post nerf. Of course I bought half of mine on the TP as it’s nearly impossible to gather them on your own due to RNG.

And this is exactly why things are a grind. Because this is true for most items you might like.

Actually I never bought a foxfire cluster and I made Mawdrey. It’s designed so that you only need 4 foxfire clusters a day, because you can only make 1 plant food a day. The difference was, I didn’t really need mawdrey TODAY.

If you want mawdrey fast, you pay to get mawdrey fast. If you hang out in high level zones anyway, which I often do, and you cut all the trees you find there, you’ll easily get 2 foxfire clusters a day and several times I got more than four.

So sometimes I skipped a day and made my plant food the next day. Maybe at the end it took me 30-40% longer to make Mawdrey.

But I do have Mawdrey and I didn’t grind. If you have no patience, buying is an option. If you have patience, Mawdrey isn’t a problem.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

~

“I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.”

I did play it and yes there are a few of those items (so little that in a list of about 300 mounts I wanted to hunt down, only 10 where not possible because they were in the cash-shop or on a card game or something like that). Still the majority I can hunt down in the world, while the majority in GW2 I can only grind for. Really I rather have a few items I can’t get at all (without buying) and by far most that I can hunt down in the world. Then to be able to get them almost all but by far most only by grinding (or by buying) and a small number I can directly hunt down in the world.

This is because I want to have fun in the game, and I don’t consider grinding boring, not fun.

“or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out.” Oow I am not talking about all. Just once in a few a new thing gets added that you might like. It would still be out of reach with ‘casual’ playing.

“If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.” Well for me an MMORPG is for a large part about that yes, not only but a large part. I like the hunt. Not a problem in most MMO’s, in fact it’s a lot of fun, but in GW2 that’s just a boring grind. Nice for you, you don’t play that way but many do.. Why do you think Anet does focus so much on cosmetics? Because it knows people like that. But then they also decide to monetize that hoping people with spend cash on it instead of playing for it resulting in people grinding for it but the hunt for it is dead.

Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.

Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.

Anyway I think your entire outlook on this whole not just grind situation but game situation is completely unrealistic. I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.

“Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.” We are talking about playing the game in general (and how that feels grindy to many people), not about how to get one specific item. So sorry but the only thing irrelevant here is this statement of yours.

“Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.” Grind (the problem we talk about) and cash. And it puts most new stuff in the in the cash-shop resulting for a big part of the grind we see. Yes.

“I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.” Are you now saying.. “yeah it’s bad, but better is not possible”?, I think it is and I have seen better examples of things like hunting down items vs grind in other games.

Devata I’ve always said it’s not possible, it’s not something I suddenly thought.

We could go back to our discussion from months ago and I told you even then that the entire industry has changed and the amount of work to make a game today is greater than years ago and the amount of money it takes is greater and the competition is greater. You seemed to be locked in time, if Guild Wars 1 could do it it could work now. I don’t believe it today and I didn’t believe it six months ago.

But the more posts you make on the topic, the more justified I feel in that belief.

“We could go back to our discussion from months ago, But the more posts you make on the topic, the more justified I feel in that belief.”

You know, you did bring this up again right?.. not me. Indeed a discussion we did have before. And you bringing this idea of you up again does indeed not justify it any more. It’s only a little strange that you now act as if I post about it again.. that was simply a reaction on your post where you posted about that idea of you that it would not be possible, again. For all my reasons why it would still work I would suggest you read them again. no need to go on about this subject again. you are not going to change your mind anyway. Nor am I.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t care if you remember it. I remember it. Other people in my guild remember it. And whether you believe me or not, it’s not my responsibility to back up what I say. You don’t have to believe it.

So your arguments are basically that….

• ArenaNet said what you claim they said, but it just happens to be that you don’t have any evidence of it and you don’t want to try looking for it, despite how, in your own words, it’s something ArenaNet would have "said at numerous conventions” and thus should be easy to find.

• A lot of people you know (friends/guild mates/fellow editors) remember the same thing you do, but it just happens to be that they are not part of this discussion.

• The real, tangible evidence proving you wrong, both from the time of the Manifesto and from right now, just happen to not matter.

Real smooth.

Vayne, you shouldn’t eat the lie, those things can cause indigestion. And a big fat lie like the Manifesto, well…

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t care if you remember it. I remember it. Other people in my guild remember it. And whether you believe me or not, it’s not my responsibility to back up what I say. You don’t have to believe it.

So your arguments are basically that….

• ArenaNet said what you claim they said, but it just happens to be that you don’t have any evidence of it and you don’t want to try looking for it, despite how, in your own words, it’s something ArenaNet would have "said at numerous conventions” and thus should be easy to find.

• A lot of people you know (friends/guild mates/fellow editors) remember the same thing you do, but it just happens to be that they are not part of this discussion.

• The real, tangible evidence proving you wrong, both from the time of the Manifesto and from right now, just happen to not matter.

Real smooth.

Vayne, you shouldn’t eat the lie, those things can cause indigestion. And a big fat lie like the Manifesto, well…

My argument is, you have no evidence of a lie and you’ve ignored other possible explanations for the situation because you personally don’t believe them. You claim that Anet said ascended items were always going to be in the game, but you didn’t say any specifiics about how those items were to be attains, so we don’t know if they’d be grindy. You offered to response to that.

The distance in time between the manifesto and the release of the game was well over a year. Things change in that time frame.

You have zero proof of the intentions of the people at the time of the manifesto and yet you still insist it’s a lie.

I really do hope no one applies your standards to you in life, because they’re massively unfair.

Vayne.8563:

I really do hope no one applies your standards to you in life, because they’re massively unfair.

Sorry, but using evidence to believe in things as opposed to believing in things based merely on hearsay is rather common in my life and in yours, it’s what we call “science”.

The lie won’t go away, no matter how often you try to ignore it. ArenaNet knew they were lying when they made a Manifesto with the opposite of what they had in the game.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

I really do hope no one applies your standards to you in life, because they’re massively unfair.

Sorry, but using evidence to believe in things as opposed to believing in things based merely on hearsay is rather common in my life and in yours, it’s what we call “science”.

The lie won’t go away, no matter how often you try to ignore it. ArenaNet knew they were lying when they made a Manifesto with the opposite of what they had in the game.

You still haven’t answered my questions….