Guild Wars 2

It’s needed for difficult content as it’s impossible to have any sort of challenging content in this game how it stands now. They have been bleeding players since this gmae launched and have already merged servers and soon to implement something to handle the WvW problem. The steady lose of players was easily bandaged with Mergaserver so people would never notice the loss however this isn’t the case for WvW and certain servers remain dead. Heck I use my WvW for the vendors since there is never any sort of que.

Dfficulty content would be nothing but zerg and rally with what we have now. If they tried to fix the stack, rally, and spank we have now those people would leave this game. However slight changes and making the raid mode be different from the onset will bring ire but its from lifers who would never leave the game in the first place and the tradeoff of new players would be well worth it.

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Tanks aren’t coming, This game has no mechanics that would make tanking a thing that was possible. No way to hold aggro at all. And now we’ll get the uninformed saying they added taunt but taunt is just a backwards fear. It doesn’t draw aggro or threat. It just makes you run in a certain direction for a bit until hit.

Revenant can actually be a somewhat effective tank.

in Legendary Dwarf stance, there is a utility with no cooldown but 50 energy cost that gives a 2s taunt and slow, plus, its other utility skills are a condition removing heal (that grants retaliation), an AoE that causes weakness and grants you stability, anability with an upkeep cost that reduces damage taken by 20%, and the elite is an AoE that grants you an unspecified amount of damage reduction.

in its retribuion traitline there is a trait to make taunt last twice as long and make enemies deal 20% less damage whn under taunt.

there is also a trait that makes you take 10% less damage when under 75% hp, and a bunch of traits that rely on you being hit (endurance on hit, stability and retaliation on dodge, and a choice of either a self heal when you get hit, or to gain might when you get hit with retaliation)

it’s not a traditional tank, but it does rely on you being the one to get hit, and being able to recover or mitigate that hit.

It doesn’t matter how many hits you can take. We’ve been able to build massive “tanky” characters since launch that can take all the hits. But there is no mechanics for taking, holding, or maintaining aggro so tanking is a moot point. That is all there is to it. It also shouldn’t exist in this game because this game isn’t a trinity game. I just don’t get why people bought this game that was advertised as a non-trinity game and then instead of playing one of the hundreds of games with a trinity try to break this one by breaking the major reason most of us bought it.

dom.2748:

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Tanks aren’t coming, This game has no mechanics that would make tanking a thing that was possible. No way to hold aggro at all. And now we’ll get the uninformed saying they added taunt but taunt is just a backwards fear. It doesn’t draw aggro or threat. It just makes you run in a certain direction for a bit until hit.

Revenant can actually be a somewhat effective tank.

in Legendary Dwarf stance, there is a utility with no cooldown but 50 energy cost that gives a 2s taunt and slow, plus, its other utility skills are a condition removing heal (that grants retaliation), an AoE that causes weakness and grants you stability, anability with an upkeep cost that reduces damage taken by 20%, and the elite is an AoE that grants you an unspecified amount of damage reduction.

in its retribuion traitline there is a trait to make taunt last twice as long and make enemies deal 20% less damage whn under taunt.

there is also a trait that makes you take 10% less damage when under 75% hp, and a bunch of traits that rely on you being hit (endurance on hit, stability and retaliation on dodge, and a choice of either a self heal when you get hit, or to gain might when you get hit with retaliation)

it’s not a traditional tank, but it does rely on you being the one to get hit, and being able to recover or mitigate that hit.

It doesn’t matter how many hits you can take. We’ve been able to build massive “tanky” characters since launch that can take all the hits. But there is no mechanics for taking, holding, or maintaining aggro so tanking is a moot point. That is all there is to it. It also shouldn’t exist in this game because this game isn’t a trinity game. I just don’t get why people bought this game that was advertised as a non-trinity game and then instead of playing one of the hundreds of games with a trinity try to break this one by breaking the major reason most of us bought it.

Because it was never advertised as a non-trinity game. It was advertised as a soft trinity game. Where you could perform any role with any class. That is what we paid for and that is NOT what we got. Some people want what they paid for and some people are happy with mechanics that even the devs admit are fundamentally flawed to their own game design

BeckaPL.2670:

dom.2748:

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Tanks aren’t coming, This game has no mechanics that would make tanking a thing that was possible. No way to hold aggro at all. And now we’ll get the uninformed saying they added taunt but taunt is just a backwards fear. It doesn’t draw aggro or threat. It just makes you run in a certain direction for a bit until hit.

Revenant can actually be a somewhat effective tank.

in Legendary Dwarf stance, there is a utility with no cooldown but 50 energy cost that gives a 2s taunt and slow, plus, its other utility skills are a condition removing heal (that grants retaliation), an AoE that causes weakness and grants you stability, anability with an upkeep cost that reduces damage taken by 20%, and the elite is an AoE that grants you an unspecified amount of damage reduction.

in its retribuion traitline there is a trait to make taunt last twice as long and make enemies deal 20% less damage whn under taunt.

there is also a trait that makes you take 10% less damage when under 75% hp, and a bunch of traits that rely on you being hit (endurance on hit, stability and retaliation on dodge, and a choice of either a self heal when you get hit, or to gain might when you get hit with retaliation)

it’s not a traditional tank, but it does rely on you being the one to get hit, and being able to recover or mitigate that hit.

It doesn’t matter how many hits you can take. We’ve been able to build massive “tanky” characters since launch that can take all the hits. But there is no mechanics for taking, holding, or maintaining aggro so tanking is a moot point. That is all there is to it. It also shouldn’t exist in this game because this game isn’t a trinity game. I just don’t get why people bought this game that was advertised as a non-trinity game and then instead of playing one of the hundreds of games with a trinity try to break this one by breaking the major reason most of us bought it.

Because it was never advertised as a non-trinity game. It was advertised as a soft trinity game. Where you could perform any role with any class. That is what we paid for and that is NOT what we got. Some people want what they paid for and some people are happy with mechanics that even the devs admit are fundamentally flawed to their own game design

It was advertised as a game without a trinity. By definition if you can do everything then there is no trinity. No requirements for parties, nothing. You CAN choose to run a tank or a healer, but it would be pointless because the game has no aggro system and it shouldn’t because it wasn’t advertised as a trinity game. Stop spreading false information. It is really annoying. All of us who came from GW1 that also didn’t have a trinity got exactly what we payed for and are happy. If you are mad that this game isn’t what you thought and want to make it another WoW clone then you should consider going back to traditional MMOs and next time do more research on a game before you buy it,

dom.2748:

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Tanks aren’t coming, This game has no mechanics that would make tanking a thing that was possible. No way to hold aggro at all. And now we’ll get the uninformed saying they added taunt but taunt is just a backwards fear. It doesn’t draw aggro or threat. It just makes you run in a certain direction for a bit until hit.

Revenant can actually be a somewhat effective tank.

in Legendary Dwarf stance, there is a utility with no cooldown but 50 energy cost that gives a 2s taunt and slow, plus, its other utility skills are a condition removing heal (that grants retaliation), an AoE that causes weakness and grants you stability, anability with an upkeep cost that reduces damage taken by 20%, and the elite is an AoE that grants you an unspecified amount of damage reduction.

in its retribuion traitline there is a trait to make taunt last twice as long and make enemies deal 20% less damage whn under taunt.

there is also a trait that makes you take 10% less damage when under 75% hp, and a bunch of traits that rely on you being hit (endurance on hit, stability and retaliation on dodge, and a choice of either a self heal when you get hit, or to gain might when you get hit with retaliation)

it’s not a traditional tank, but it does rely on you being the one to get hit, and being able to recover or mitigate that hit.

It doesn’t matter how many hits you can take. We’ve been able to build massive “tanky” characters since launch that can take all the hits. But there is no mechanics for taking, holding, or maintaining aggro so tanking is a moot point. That is all there is to it. It also shouldn’t exist in this game because this game isn’t a trinity game. I just don’t get why people bought this game that was advertised as a non-trinity game and then instead of playing one of the hundreds of games with a trinity try to break this one by breaking the major reason most of us bought it.

by “tanking” in this context,I’m meaning “a method of control relying on the enemy attacking you instead of others”, Revenants get a 4s taunt every 10 seconds, so a revenant standing away from a group and taunting on cooldown means the enemy will pingpong between the revenant and the group, and every hit the “tank” takes is a berzerker DPS not being hit.

I’m not a huge fan of the trinity myself, however, I definitely sympathise with the “can we have the trinity back?” people because we’ve given up the trinity for “all DPS all the time”

freedom to choose your role is very different to “freedom to choose your flavour of DPS (and if you don’t choose chocolate you are WRONG.)”

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Tanks aren’t coming, This game has no mechanics that would make tanking a thing that was possible. No way to hold aggro at all. And now we’ll get the uninformed saying they added taunt but taunt is just a backwards fear. It doesn’t draw aggro or threat. It just makes you run in a certain direction for a bit until hit.

Revenant can actually be a somewhat effective tank.

in Legendary Dwarf stance, there is a utility with no cooldown but 50 energy cost that gives a 2s taunt and slow, plus, its other utility skills are a condition removing heal (that grants retaliation), an AoE that causes weakness and grants you stability, anability with an upkeep cost that reduces damage taken by 20%, and the elite is an AoE that grants you an unspecified amount of damage reduction.

in its retribuion traitline there is a trait to make taunt last twice as long and make enemies deal 20% less damage whn under taunt.

there is also a trait that makes you take 10% less damage when under 75% hp, and a bunch of traits that rely on you being hit (endurance on hit, stability and retaliation on dodge, and a choice of either a self heal when you get hit, or to gain might when you get hit with retaliation)

it’s not a traditional tank, but it does rely on you being the one to get hit, and being able to recover or mitigate that hit.

It doesn’t matter how many hits you can take. We’ve been able to build massive “tanky” characters since launch that can take all the hits. But there is no mechanics for taking, holding, or maintaining aggro so tanking is a moot point. That is all there is to it. It also shouldn’t exist in this game because this game isn’t a trinity game. I just don’t get why people bought this game that was advertised as a non-trinity game and then instead of playing one of the hundreds of games with a trinity try to break this one by breaking the major reason most of us bought it.

by “tanking” in this context,I’m meaning “a method of control relying on the enemy attacking you instead of others”, Revenants get a 4s taunt every 10 seconds, so a revenant standing away from a group and taunting on cooldown means the enemy will pingpong between the revenant and the group, and every hit the “tank” takes is a berzerker DPS not being hit.

I’m not a huge fan of the trinity myself, however, I definitely sympathise with the “can we have the trinity back?” people because we’ve given up the trinity for “all DPS all the time”

freedom to choose your role is very different to “freedom to choose your flavour of DPS (and if you don’t choose chocolate you are WRONG.)”

Except taunt is a fear-like condition. Meaning it is a hard CC. And hard CC won’t work on legendaries in HoT because they will all have a break bar. More importantly even if it did work you’d just have the result of melee DPS chasing the boss around and missing half their attacks as it runs out of their range.

BeckaPL.2670:

dom.2748:

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Tanks aren’t coming, This game has no mechanics that would make tanking a thing that was possible. No way to hold aggro at all. And now we’ll get the uninformed saying they added taunt but taunt is just a backwards fear. It doesn’t draw aggro or threat. It just makes you run in a certain direction for a bit until hit.

Revenant can actually be a somewhat effective tank.

in Legendary Dwarf stance, there is a utility with no cooldown but 50 energy cost that gives a 2s taunt and slow, plus, its other utility skills are a condition removing heal (that grants retaliation), an AoE that causes weakness and grants you stability, anability with an upkeep cost that reduces damage taken by 20%, and the elite is an AoE that grants you an unspecified amount of damage reduction.

in its retribuion traitline there is a trait to make taunt last twice as long and make enemies deal 20% less damage whn under taunt.

there is also a trait that makes you take 10% less damage when under 75% hp, and a bunch of traits that rely on you being hit (endurance on hit, stability and retaliation on dodge, and a choice of either a self heal when you get hit, or to gain might when you get hit with retaliation)

it’s not a traditional tank, but it does rely on you being the one to get hit, and being able to recover or mitigate that hit.

It doesn’t matter how many hits you can take. We’ve been able to build massive “tanky” characters since launch that can take all the hits. But there is no mechanics for taking, holding, or maintaining aggro so tanking is a moot point. That is all there is to it. It also shouldn’t exist in this game because this game isn’t a trinity game. I just don’t get why people bought this game that was advertised as a non-trinity game and then instead of playing one of the hundreds of games with a trinity try to break this one by breaking the major reason most of us bought it.

Because it was never advertised as a non-trinity game. It was advertised as a soft trinity game. Where you could perform any role with any class. That is what we paid for and that is NOT what we got. Some people want what they paid for and some people are happy with mechanics that even the devs admit are fundamentally flawed to their own game design

This guy, I like you. I bought this game mainly because I am a guild wars 1 fan, but the soft trinity intrigued me and I thought “it’ll be weird to not have a front, mid and back line but it actually might be an improvement and allow for my versatility in builds. plus it can let people play they way they like to so awesome.” but in the end it all came down to dmg dealing, and the support necro I liked to play? yeah was just a hindrance to the team I was trying to support.

Right now its either get enough people to smash the boss where you can just auto attack and walk away. Or have everyone run zerk and kill the boss before it can do anything.

More class definition and importance on ways to help your team are a welcomed thing in my book.

MuffinMan.3285:

BeckaPL.2670:

dom.2748:

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Tanks aren’t coming, This game has no mechanics that would make tanking a thing that was possible. No way to hold aggro at all. And now we’ll get the uninformed saying they added taunt but taunt is just a backwards fear. It doesn’t draw aggro or threat. It just makes you run in a certain direction for a bit until hit.

Revenant can actually be a somewhat effective tank.

in Legendary Dwarf stance, there is a utility with no cooldown but 50 energy cost that gives a 2s taunt and slow, plus, its other utility skills are a condition removing heal (that grants retaliation), an AoE that causes weakness and grants you stability, anability with an upkeep cost that reduces damage taken by 20%, and the elite is an AoE that grants you an unspecified amount of damage reduction.

in its retribuion traitline there is a trait to make taunt last twice as long and make enemies deal 20% less damage whn under taunt.

there is also a trait that makes you take 10% less damage when under 75% hp, and a bunch of traits that rely on you being hit (endurance on hit, stability and retaliation on dodge, and a choice of either a self heal when you get hit, or to gain might when you get hit with retaliation)

it’s not a traditional tank, but it does rely on you being the one to get hit, and being able to recover or mitigate that hit.

It doesn’t matter how many hits you can take. We’ve been able to build massive “tanky” characters since launch that can take all the hits. But there is no mechanics for taking, holding, or maintaining aggro so tanking is a moot point. That is all there is to it. It also shouldn’t exist in this game because this game isn’t a trinity game. I just don’t get why people bought this game that was advertised as a non-trinity game and then instead of playing one of the hundreds of games with a trinity try to break this one by breaking the major reason most of us bought it.

Because it was never advertised as a non-trinity game. It was advertised as a soft trinity game. Where you could perform any role with any class. That is what we paid for and that is NOT what we got. Some people want what they paid for and some people are happy with mechanics that even the devs admit are fundamentally flawed to their own game design

This guy, I like you. I bought this game mainly because I am a guild wars 1 fan, but the soft trinity intrigued me and I thought “it’ll be weird to not have a front, mid and back line but it actually might be an improvement and allow for my versatility in builds. plus it can let people play they way they like to so awesome.” but in the end it all came down to dmg dealing, and the support necro I liked to play? yeah was just a hindrance to the team I was trying to support.

Right now its either get enough people to smash the boss where you can just auto attack and walk away. Or have everyone run zerk and kill the boss before it can do anything.

More class definition and importance on ways to help your team are a welcomed thing in my book.

What is a support necro? Aside from the recent vampiric aura thing what exactly can a necro provide as support? It is a very selfish class, contradictory to support in almost every way.

More importantly your support necro, if it was actually useful (it might be? I might be missing some necro stuff? Idk) is not a hindrance. You’re just trying to join meta groups. If you don’t want to play the meta then play the non-meta. Tons of people do it and they supposedly have fun every day. You’re the only person forcing yourself into a play style you don’t like.

You should be able to all dps, because it is meant to be a non-trinity game. And anybody that claims otherwise is seriously spreading some misinformation. just like you should be able to run 5 healers if you wanted to. The content would take forever and I don’t know why anybody would ever do it to themselves but you could get through the content that way. I’m not sure why some people feel the need to try and destroy the meta just because they don’t personally like it. DON’T PLAY THE META IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT. IT ISN’T MANDATORY.

There’s never going to be “Healers” because Anet wants to push active damage mitigating support over healing.

What they probably should have done though, is made a Boon Duration/Field Effect Duration stat(in addition to other mechanics that affect Boon Duration).

Ticky.5831:

There’s never going to be “Healers” because Anet wants to push active damage mitigating support over healing.

What they probably should have done though, is made a Boon Duration stat(in addition to other mechanics that affect Boon Duration).

At the end of the day it really comes down to… Why do I need a dedicated healer when I can heal myself?

I am not 100% opposed to clerics gear being mixed in with other types of gear for example. I mean I don’t personally see the benefit as healing power doesn’t scale very well but I am not 100% opposed. I think a Zerker Ele swapping to water and then blasting a water field is plenty enough for emergency situations, which are rare enough on their own. With dodging, blocks, reflects, blinds, projectile destroying, etc. I don’t see why we should ever go full tank or heals.

Even if content becomes more challenging I don’t know why you would completely remove yourself from damage and do something as boring as pure healing or tanking. If you don’t want to be in the fight then don’t join the party.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Khristophoros.7194:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

My concern is exactly how much unavoidable damage they’ll be throwing at us. The thing with standard tank/heal/dps games is that the scales between different archetypes are huge.

In GW2, the scales between them are small. The difference between someone running around in full GC as compared to, say, knights gear isn’t that big. It is only about 60% higher effective health, which may seem like a lot until you realize it just means you’ll be taking 37.5% less damage. That is less than the innate difference between some classes.

As much as I am for gear diversity, I can’t forget this fact. Gear diversity is about preference in play more than anything else, because as the game stands it currently can’t handle a traditional trinity setup.

That IS a lot. It’s not just more EHP, it’s also more Effective Healing.

Put that toughness on a necro with blood magic, wells healing you for just shy of 200 per tick per enemy and yeah it’s a big deal.

It really isn’t when comparing thresholds of damage. On paper it seems good in the long term, but in reality that extra amount of EHP frequently won’t mean a thing. While fighting champions in silverwastes and drytop, I will very frequently be hit with an attack that goes for 16k or so in a single strike. That number is 10k in knights gear. The overall takeaway of this? You still die in two hits, and your toughness has gained you nothing.

As much as I’d like to make the necro the tank (BTW, vampiric rituals only heals for 110 per tick), Death Shroud blocking healing makes supporting them inconsistent. You’d be better off with a class that can chain invulnerability skills.

You missed this in the patch notes.

Blood Magic traits that siphon health now heal through shroud. Additionally, siphon damage and healing from traits is now called out in the combat log.

but yes … the siphons do look very underwhelming when looking at the actual numbers in the combat log. it looks much more impressive as a cloud of green numbers.

I have no idea why you felt the need to quote me on that.

MuffinMan.3285:

I bought this game mainly because I am a guild wars 1 fan, but the soft trinity intrigued me and I thought “it’ll be weird to not have a front, mid and back line but it actually might be an improvement and allow for my versatility in builds. plus it can let people play they way they like to so awesome.” but in the end it all came down to dmg dealing, and the support necro I liked to play? yeah was just a hindrance to the team I was trying to support.

Sorry, explain to me how the current system doesn’t allow for versatility of builds?

Or do you mean, the system allows for quite a versatility of builds, but the player base is only interested in what will complete content in the fastest time, which ultimately means one type of build?

GW2 always allowed for a wide range of builds, and still does. The problem is with the players. I mean, my guard can be a boon-stacking, condition removing fool, or a burning DPS fiend, or a heal/aegis might stacker, etc. All of these have been possible from the start. I play whatever build I feel like playing.

The “zerk meta problem” is overly exaggerated on the forums. I know people like to act like they are forced to do zerk, or that everyone and their cousin will scoff and kick you if you aren’t in zerk, but as an early release player who PUGs regularly, I’ve never experienced any of it. Yet come on the forums and you’d think the game was plagued with elitists, when in reality its a tiny niche group that happen to also be forum warriors.

dom.2748:

MuffinMan.3285:

BeckaPL.2670:

dom.2748:

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Tanks aren’t coming, This game has no mechanics that would make tanking a thing that was possible. No way to hold aggro at all. And now we’ll get the uninformed saying they added taunt but taunt is just a backwards fear. It doesn’t draw aggro or threat. It just makes you run in a certain direction for a bit until hit.

Revenant can actually be a somewhat effective tank.

in Legendary Dwarf stance, there is a utility with no cooldown but 50 energy cost that gives a 2s taunt and slow, plus, its other utility skills are a condition removing heal (that grants retaliation), an AoE that causes weakness and grants you stability, anability with an upkeep cost that reduces damage taken by 20%, and the elite is an AoE that grants you an unspecified amount of damage reduction.

in its retribuion traitline there is a trait to make taunt last twice as long and make enemies deal 20% less damage whn under taunt.

there is also a trait that makes you take 10% less damage when under 75% hp, and a bunch of traits that rely on you being hit (endurance on hit, stability and retaliation on dodge, and a choice of either a self heal when you get hit, or to gain might when you get hit with retaliation)

it’s not a traditional tank, but it does rely on you being the one to get hit, and being able to recover or mitigate that hit.

It doesn’t matter how many hits you can take. We’ve been able to build massive “tanky” characters since launch that can take all the hits. But there is no mechanics for taking, holding, or maintaining aggro so tanking is a moot point. That is all there is to it. It also shouldn’t exist in this game because this game isn’t a trinity game. I just don’t get why people bought this game that was advertised as a non-trinity game and then instead of playing one of the hundreds of games with a trinity try to break this one by breaking the major reason most of us bought it.

Because it was never advertised as a non-trinity game. It was advertised as a soft trinity game. Where you could perform any role with any class. That is what we paid for and that is NOT what we got. Some people want what they paid for and some people are happy with mechanics that even the devs admit are fundamentally flawed to their own game design

This guy, I like you. I bought this game mainly because I am a guild wars 1 fan, but the soft trinity intrigued me and I thought “it’ll be weird to not have a front, mid and back line but it actually might be an improvement and allow for my versatility in builds. plus it can let people play they way they like to so awesome.” but in the end it all came down to dmg dealing, and the support necro I liked to play? yeah was just a hindrance to the team I was trying to support.

Right now its either get enough people to smash the boss where you can just auto attack and walk away. Or have everyone run zerk and kill the boss before it can do anything.

More class definition and importance on ways to help your team are a welcomed thing in my book.

What is a support necro? Aside from the recent vampiric aura thing what exactly can a necro provide as support? It is a very selfish class, contradictory to support in almost every way.

More importantly your support necro, if it was actually useful (it might be? I might be missing some necro stuff? Idk) is not a hindrance. You’re just trying to join meta groups. If you don’t want to play the meta then play the non-meta. Tons of people do it and they supposedly have fun every day. You’re the only person forcing yourself into a play style you don’t like.

You should be able to all dps, because it is meant to be a non-trinity game. And anybody that claims otherwise is seriously spreading some misinformation. just like you should be able to run 5 healers if you wanted to. The content would take forever and I don’t know why anybody would ever do it to themselves but you could get through the content that way. I’m not sure why some people feel the need to try and destroy the meta just because they don’t personally like it. DON’T PLAY THE META IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT. IT ISN’T MANDATORY.

Well as a support necro I ran condimangement skills like plague signet and well of power, trait for the well healing skill to pop when reviving people. among other things, but necros can give alot of boons and help keep other members clean.

And yes, I can run my support character with friends of mine. however if i want to pug a dungeon or something? ill have to go through a couple groups. Your idea for “just join non meta groups” is flawed in the fact that its meta for a reason…its what everyone runs.

as for forcing my self to use a play style i don’t like.. no. you are reading into what i said to much, I personally remember its a game and play it to have fun so if i don’t get in the group, I don’t get in the group. I am speaking in a more general terms for other players that do experience the pressure to play a way they don’t want.

Also, the “Destroying of the meta”? please, all I said was more class definition. Guardians have the highest toughness, so they should really be rushing in before the squishes . Ele’s have great AoE attacks and can CC like a motha kittena (etc, etc). Having a more defined class roll (while every is still capable of pumping out damage) doesn’t destroy the meta it prompts more group play than every one go pew pew and collect your (terrible) loot.

dom.2748:

MuffinMan.3285:

BeckaPL.2670:

dom.2748:

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Tanks aren’t coming, This game has no mechanics that would make tanking a thing that was possible. No way to hold aggro at all. And now we’ll get the uninformed saying they added taunt but taunt is just a backwards fear. It doesn’t draw aggro or threat. It just makes you run in a certain direction for a bit until hit.

Revenant can actually be a somewhat effective tank.

in Legendary Dwarf stance, there is a utility with no cooldown but 50 energy cost that gives a 2s taunt and slow, plus, its other utility skills are a condition removing heal (that grants retaliation), an AoE that causes weakness and grants you stability, anability with an upkeep cost that reduces damage taken by 20%, and the elite is an AoE that grants you an unspecified amount of damage reduction.

in its retribuion traitline there is a trait to make taunt last twice as long and make enemies deal 20% less damage whn under taunt.

there is also a trait that makes you take 10% less damage when under 75% hp, and a bunch of traits that rely on you being hit (endurance on hit, stability and retaliation on dodge, and a choice of either a self heal when you get hit, or to gain might when you get hit with retaliation)

it’s not a traditional tank, but it does rely on you being the one to get hit, and being able to recover or mitigate that hit.

It doesn’t matter how many hits you can take. We’ve been able to build massive “tanky” characters since launch that can take all the hits. But there is no mechanics for taking, holding, or maintaining aggro so tanking is a moot point. That is all there is to it. It also shouldn’t exist in this game because this game isn’t a trinity game. I just don’t get why people bought this game that was advertised as a non-trinity game and then instead of playing one of the hundreds of games with a trinity try to break this one by breaking the major reason most of us bought it.

Because it was never advertised as a non-trinity game. It was advertised as a soft trinity game. Where you could perform any role with any class. That is what we paid for and that is NOT what we got. Some people want what they paid for and some people are happy with mechanics that even the devs admit are fundamentally flawed to their own game design

This guy, I like you. I bought this game mainly because I am a guild wars 1 fan, but the soft trinity intrigued me and I thought “it’ll be weird to not have a front, mid and back line but it actually might be an improvement and allow for my versatility in builds. plus it can let people play they way they like to so awesome.” but in the end it all came down to dmg dealing, and the support necro I liked to play? yeah was just a hindrance to the team I was trying to support.

Right now its either get enough people to smash the boss where you can just auto attack and walk away. Or have everyone run zerk and kill the boss before it can do anything.

More class definition and importance on ways to help your team are a welcomed thing in my book.

What is a support necro? Aside from the recent vampiric aura thing what exactly can a necro provide as support? It is a very selfish class, contradictory to support in almost every way.

More importantly your support necro, if it was actually useful (it might be? I might be missing some necro stuff? Idk) is not a hindrance. You’re just trying to join meta groups. If you don’t want to play the meta then play the non-meta. Tons of people do it and they supposedly have fun every day. You’re the only person forcing yourself into a play style you don’t like.

You should be able to all dps, because it is meant to be a non-trinity game. And anybody that claims otherwise is seriously spreading some misinformation. just like you should be able to run 5 healers if you wanted to. The content would take forever and I don’t know why anybody would ever do it to themselves but you could get through the content that way. I’m not sure why some people feel the need to try and destroy the meta just because they don’t personally like it. DON’T PLAY THE META IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT. IT ISN’T MANDATORY.

early on, a “support necro” was a necro that specialized in DPS boosts and damage mitigation through conditions (for example, vuln vs might, weakness vs protection, blind vs aegis), condition management (eg, leeching party member conds), and boon stripping/conversion.

an interesting and fun idea that was stomped flat at the time by the meta being “4 warriors using GS2 and a mesmer to timewarp and skip as much content as possible” resulting in no groups that wanted them, and necros being hobbled by the condition cap.

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

MuffinMan.3285:

BeckaPL.2670:

dom.2748:

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Tanks aren’t coming, This game has no mechanics that would make tanking a thing that was possible. No way to hold aggro at all. And now we’ll get the uninformed saying they added taunt but taunt is just a backwards fear. It doesn’t draw aggro or threat. It just makes you run in a certain direction for a bit until hit.

Revenant can actually be a somewhat effective tank.

in Legendary Dwarf stance, there is a utility with no cooldown but 50 energy cost that gives a 2s taunt and slow, plus, its other utility skills are a condition removing heal (that grants retaliation), an AoE that causes weakness and grants you stability, anability with an upkeep cost that reduces damage taken by 20%, and the elite is an AoE that grants you an unspecified amount of damage reduction.

in its retribuion traitline there is a trait to make taunt last twice as long and make enemies deal 20% less damage whn under taunt.

there is also a trait that makes you take 10% less damage when under 75% hp, and a bunch of traits that rely on you being hit (endurance on hit, stability and retaliation on dodge, and a choice of either a self heal when you get hit, or to gain might when you get hit with retaliation)

it’s not a traditional tank, but it does rely on you being the one to get hit, and being able to recover or mitigate that hit.

It doesn’t matter how many hits you can take. We’ve been able to build massive “tanky” characters since launch that can take all the hits. But there is no mechanics for taking, holding, or maintaining aggro so tanking is a moot point. That is all there is to it. It also shouldn’t exist in this game because this game isn’t a trinity game. I just don’t get why people bought this game that was advertised as a non-trinity game and then instead of playing one of the hundreds of games with a trinity try to break this one by breaking the major reason most of us bought it.

Because it was never advertised as a non-trinity game. It was advertised as a soft trinity game. Where you could perform any role with any class. That is what we paid for and that is NOT what we got. Some people want what they paid for and some people are happy with mechanics that even the devs admit are fundamentally flawed to their own game design

This guy, I like you. I bought this game mainly because I am a guild wars 1 fan, but the soft trinity intrigued me and I thought “it’ll be weird to not have a front, mid and back line but it actually might be an improvement and allow for my versatility in builds. plus it can let people play they way they like to so awesome.” but in the end it all came down to dmg dealing, and the support necro I liked to play? yeah was just a hindrance to the team I was trying to support.

Right now its either get enough people to smash the boss where you can just auto attack and walk away. Or have everyone run zerk and kill the boss before it can do anything.

More class definition and importance on ways to help your team are a welcomed thing in my book.

What is a support necro? Aside from the recent vampiric aura thing what exactly can a necro provide as support? It is a very selfish class, contradictory to support in almost every way.

More importantly your support necro, if it was actually useful (it might be? I might be missing some necro stuff? Idk) is not a hindrance. You’re just trying to join meta groups. If you don’t want to play the meta then play the non-meta. Tons of people do it and they supposedly have fun every day. You’re the only person forcing yourself into a play style you don’t like.

You should be able to all dps, because it is meant to be a non-trinity game. And anybody that claims otherwise is seriously spreading some misinformation. just like you should be able to run 5 healers if you wanted to. The content would take forever and I don’t know why anybody would ever do it to themselves but you could get through the content that way. I’m not sure why some people feel the need to try and destroy the meta just because they don’t personally like it. DON’T PLAY THE META IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT. IT ISN’T MANDATORY.

early on, a “support necro” was a necro that specialized in DPS boosts and damage mitigation through conditions (for example, vuln vs might, weakness vs protection, blind vs aegis), condition management (eg, leeching party member conds), and boon stripping/conversion.

an interesting and fun idea that was stomped flat at the time by the meta being “4 warriors using GS2 and a mesmer to timewarp and skip as much content as possible” resulting in no groups that wanted them, and necros being hobbled by the condition cap.

+1 I didnt feel like getting into the specifics of the support necro, but you summed it up nicely.

Nike.2631:

At least ANet’s raid designers are integrating the hard earned wisdom of enrage timers which serve exactly one purpose in a game without mana-pool management: to make it absolutely clear when it’s the DPSers who are falling short. Not surprisingly most of DPS players don’t like being scrutinized, because in any group of people only one-in-ten is actually in the top 10% percent. Enrage timers separate the self-aggrandizing blowhards from the real alpha predators.

I guess everything is open to interpretation.

Enrage timers feels more like lazy unimaginative game designers. “Can’t think of any other way to add challenge to this fight so lets just add an enrage timer. Players love their zerker gear anyway.”

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

MuffinMan.3285:

BeckaPL.2670:

dom.2748:

Calcifire.1864:

dom.2748:

Tanks aren’t coming, This game has no mechanics that would make tanking a thing that was possible. No way to hold aggro at all. And now we’ll get the uninformed saying they added taunt but taunt is just a backwards fear. It doesn’t draw aggro or threat. It just makes you run in a certain direction for a bit until hit.

Revenant can actually be a somewhat effective tank.

in Legendary Dwarf stance, there is a utility with no cooldown but 50 energy cost that gives a 2s taunt and slow, plus, its other utility skills are a condition removing heal (that grants retaliation), an AoE that causes weakness and grants you stability, anability with an upkeep cost that reduces damage taken by 20%, and the elite is an AoE that grants you an unspecified amount of damage reduction.

in its retribuion traitline there is a trait to make taunt last twice as long and make enemies deal 20% less damage whn under taunt.

there is also a trait that makes you take 10% less damage when under 75% hp, and a bunch of traits that rely on you being hit (endurance on hit, stability and retaliation on dodge, and a choice of either a self heal when you get hit, or to gain might when you get hit with retaliation)

it’s not a traditional tank, but it does rely on you being the one to get hit, and being able to recover or mitigate that hit.

It doesn’t matter how many hits you can take. We’ve been able to build massive “tanky” characters since launch that can take all the hits. But there is no mechanics for taking, holding, or maintaining aggro so tanking is a moot point. That is all there is to it. It also shouldn’t exist in this game because this game isn’t a trinity game. I just don’t get why people bought this game that was advertised as a non-trinity game and then instead of playing one of the hundreds of games with a trinity try to break this one by breaking the major reason most of us bought it.

Because it was never advertised as a non-trinity game. It was advertised as a soft trinity game. Where you could perform any role with any class. That is what we paid for and that is NOT what we got. Some people want what they paid for and some people are happy with mechanics that even the devs admit are fundamentally flawed to their own game design

This guy, I like you. I bought this game mainly because I am a guild wars 1 fan, but the soft trinity intrigued me and I thought “it’ll be weird to not have a front, mid and back line but it actually might be an improvement and allow for my versatility in builds. plus it can let people play they way they like to so awesome.” but in the end it all came down to dmg dealing, and the support necro I liked to play? yeah was just a hindrance to the team I was trying to support.

Right now its either get enough people to smash the boss where you can just auto attack and walk away. Or have everyone run zerk and kill the boss before it can do anything.

More class definition and importance on ways to help your team are a welcomed thing in my book.

What is a support necro? Aside from the recent vampiric aura thing what exactly can a necro provide as support? It is a very selfish class, contradictory to support in almost every way.

More importantly your support necro, if it was actually useful (it might be? I might be missing some necro stuff? Idk) is not a hindrance. You’re just trying to join meta groups. If you don’t want to play the meta then play the non-meta. Tons of people do it and they supposedly have fun every day. You’re the only person forcing yourself into a play style you don’t like.

You should be able to all dps, because it is meant to be a non-trinity game. And anybody that claims otherwise is seriously spreading some misinformation. just like you should be able to run 5 healers if you wanted to. The content would take forever and I don’t know why anybody would ever do it to themselves but you could get through the content that way. I’m not sure why some people feel the need to try and destroy the meta just because they don’t personally like it. DON’T PLAY THE META IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT. IT ISN’T MANDATORY.

early on, a “support necro” was a necro that specialized in DPS boosts and damage mitigation through conditions (for example, vuln vs might, weakness vs protection, blind vs aegis), condition management (eg, leeching party member conds), and boon stripping/conversion.

an interesting and fun idea that was stomped flat at the time by the meta being “4 warriors using GS2 and a mesmer to timewarp and skip as much content as possible” resulting in no groups that wanted them, and necros being hobbled by the condition cap.

They were hobbled by the condi cap, like most condition builds were.

With that said, they were mostly useless if thats what they have to offer because other classes can provide vulnerability and weakness while also dealing direct damage. Which necro wasn’t really very good at either until dagger was buffed with a cleave. Then power necro became really fun. Unfortunately necros already had a bad reputation from people refusing to acknowledge the limitation of conditions and some even running minion master despite the minion master AI being just the worst thing ever.

If by skipping as much content as possible you mean running passed trash mobs that don’t drop anything then yes, I also subscribe to the philosophy of not wasting my time as it is very valuable to me.

And I know people who play necro since launch and when they weren’t running their necros with friends they were doing just find joining non-meta groups that are play how you want advocates. The only time you find people who cry about the meta are the same people who think they are entitled to play with meta players without playing the meta. You’re not, nobody is entitled to play with anybody in a private party.

dom.2748:

Ticky.5831:

There’s never going to be “Healers” because Anet wants to push active damage mitigating support over healing.

What they probably should have done though, is made a Boon Duration stat(in addition to other mechanics that affect Boon Duration).

At the end of the day it really comes down to… Why do I need a dedicated healer when I can heal myself?

I am not 100% opposed to clerics gear being mixed in with other types of gear for example. I mean I don’t personally see the benefit as healing power doesn’t scale very well but I am not 100% opposed. I think a Zerker Ele swapping to water and then blasting a water field is plenty enough for emergency situations, which are rare enough on their own. With dodging, blocks, reflects, blinds, projectile destroying, etc. I don’t see why we should ever go full tank or heals.

Even if content becomes more challenging I don’t know why you would completely remove yourself from damage and do something as boring as pure healing or tanking. If you don’t want to be in the fight then don’t join the party.

Well technically they can go around that.

Big kitten Boss cause AoE suppression, -100% healing effectiveness (self) and frequent buff removal on players for the duration of the fight.

Thats it. Simple as all kitten.

Anet can already do something like in the game and play with encounters, but obviously they have chosen not to. “Healers” – someone that either apply alot of passive AoE heals, constant regeneration, blasting fields or skills that just plain heal (like guardian staff, or even normal heal skills that cause AoE healing) – would absolutely be required in this encounter. Hell it would even demand TWO of them if the “healer” cant top off himself. Not to mention people would probably need to pick tankier gear as well.

Dawdler.8521:

dom.2748:

Ticky.5831:

There’s never going to be “Healers” because Anet wants to push active damage mitigating support over healing.

What they probably should have done though, is made a Boon Duration stat(in addition to other mechanics that affect Boon Duration).

At the end of the day it really comes down to… Why do I need a dedicated healer when I can heal myself?

I am not 100% opposed to clerics gear being mixed in with other types of gear for example. I mean I don’t personally see the benefit as healing power doesn’t scale very well but I am not 100% opposed. I think a Zerker Ele swapping to water and then blasting a water field is plenty enough for emergency situations, which are rare enough on their own. With dodging, blocks, reflects, blinds, projectile destroying, etc. I don’t see why we should ever go full tank or heals.

Even if content becomes more challenging I don’t know why you would completely remove yourself from damage and do something as boring as pure healing or tanking. If you don’t want to be in the fight then don’t join the party.

Well technically they can go around that.

Big kitten Boss cause AoE suppression, -100% healing effectiveness (self) and frequent buff removal on players for the duration of the fight.

Thats it. Simple as all kitten.

Anet can already do something like in the game and play with encounters, but obviously they have chosen not to. “Healers” – someone that either apply alot of passive AoE heals, constant regeneration, blasting fields or skills that just plain heal (like guardian staff, or even normal heal skills that cause AoE healing) – would absolutely be required in this encounter. Hell it would even demand TWO of them if the “healer” cant top off himself. Not to mention people would probably need to pick tankier gear as well.

And that is called a trinity, and this game isn’t a hard trinity game. You shouldn’t REQUIRE any specific role. That is the whole point. We don’t want a hard trinity. If we wanted a hard trinity we’d be playing one of the hundreds of games with a hard trinity.

Now here is the problem with your ridiculous scenario. How do you think an Ele or Guardian would heal us if our boons are stripped? How would anybody do anything? Support is now meaningless. Damage is now nerfed into the ground, so everybody is hitting like a wet noodle. You either play a trinity game or you don’t. I chose not to and played GW2. If that is what you are looking for then maybe you should reevaluate your game decision instead of trying to break this one.

dom.2748:

Dawdler.8521:

dom.2748:

Ticky.5831:

There’s never going to be “Healers” because Anet wants to push active damage mitigating support over healing.

What they probably should have done though, is made a Boon Duration stat(in addition to other mechanics that affect Boon Duration).

At the end of the day it really comes down to… Why do I need a dedicated healer when I can heal myself?

I am not 100% opposed to clerics gear being mixed in with other types of gear for example. I mean I don’t personally see the benefit as healing power doesn’t scale very well but I am not 100% opposed. I think a Zerker Ele swapping to water and then blasting a water field is plenty enough for emergency situations, which are rare enough on their own. With dodging, blocks, reflects, blinds, projectile destroying, etc. I don’t see why we should ever go full tank or heals.

Even if content becomes more challenging I don’t know why you would completely remove yourself from damage and do something as boring as pure healing or tanking. If you don’t want to be in the fight then don’t join the party.

Well technically they can go around that.

Big kitten Boss cause AoE suppression, -100% healing effectiveness (self) and frequent buff removal on players for the duration of the fight.

Thats it. Simple as all kitten.

Anet can already do something like in the game and play with encounters, but obviously they have chosen not to. “Healers” – someone that either apply alot of passive AoE heals, constant regeneration, blasting fields or skills that just plain heal (like guardian staff, or even normal heal skills that cause AoE healing) – would absolutely be required in this encounter. Hell it would even demand TWO of them if the “healer” cant top off himself. Not to mention people would probably need to pick tankier gear as well.

And that is called a trinity, and this game isn’t a hard trinity game. You shouldn’t REQUIRE any specific role. That is the whole point. We don’t want a hard trinity. If we wanted a hard trinity we’d be playing one of the hundreds of games with a hard trinity.

Now here is the problem with your ridiculous scenario. How do you think an Ele or Guardian would heal us if our boons are stripped? How would anybody do anything? Support is now meaningless. Damage is now nerfed into the ground, so everybody is hitting like a wet noodle. You either play a trinity game or you don’t. I chose not to and played GW2. If that is what you are looking for then maybe you should reevaluate your game decision instead of trying to break this one.

I agree with you 100%. zerker, or pure DPS and DPS support only should NEVER EVER have been required for optimal content completion. It is stupid. The mental kittenation of “zerking” dungeons has caused many of us (myself included) to take very long breaks from this game, while many others have left it entirely. Only thing that has brought me back to try it out again are the recent changes, along with QOL improvements such as ability to change stats on ascended gear, but even that is falling short in a lot of areas.

Magaservers are basically the result of dwindling population of players leaving due to zerker boredom.

Original soft trinity was supposed to be required for optimal content completion, but as recently stated by a-net, they basically screwed up and as one of the lead devs put it, the DPS meta is a “design flaw” which will be corrected in the future content.

If they do it right, you will still be able to finish content in full DPS group set up, just not in an optimal manner but rather as it was originally intended, which includes the GW2 soft trinity of Control / Support / DPS instead of the hard trinities of other games consisting of Tank / Heals / DPS.

Tongku.5326:

dom.2748:

Dawdler.8521:

dom.2748:

Ticky.5831:

There’s never going to be “Healers” because Anet wants to push active damage mitigating support over healing.

What they probably should have done though, is made a Boon Duration stat(in addition to other mechanics that affect Boon Duration).

At the end of the day it really comes down to… Why do I need a dedicated healer when I can heal myself?

I am not 100% opposed to clerics gear being mixed in with other types of gear for example. I mean I don’t personally see the benefit as healing power doesn’t scale very well but I am not 100% opposed. I think a Zerker Ele swapping to water and then blasting a water field is plenty enough for emergency situations, which are rare enough on their own. With dodging, blocks, reflects, blinds, projectile destroying, etc. I don’t see why we should ever go full tank or heals.

Even if content becomes more challenging I don’t know why you would completely remove yourself from damage and do something as boring as pure healing or tanking. If you don’t want to be in the fight then don’t join the party.

Well technically they can go around that.

Big kitten Boss cause AoE suppression, -100% healing effectiveness (self) and frequent buff removal on players for the duration of the fight.

Thats it. Simple as all kitten.

Anet can already do something like in the game and play with encounters, but obviously they have chosen not to. “Healers” – someone that either apply alot of passive AoE heals, constant regeneration, blasting fields or skills that just plain heal (like guardian staff, or even normal heal skills that cause AoE healing) – would absolutely be required in this encounter. Hell it would even demand TWO of them if the “healer” cant top off himself. Not to mention people would probably need to pick tankier gear as well.

And that is called a trinity, and this game isn’t a hard trinity game. You shouldn’t REQUIRE any specific role. That is the whole point. We don’t want a hard trinity. If we wanted a hard trinity we’d be playing one of the hundreds of games with a hard trinity.

Now here is the problem with your ridiculous scenario. How do you think an Ele or Guardian would heal us if our boons are stripped? How would anybody do anything? Support is now meaningless. Damage is now nerfed into the ground, so everybody is hitting like a wet noodle. You either play a trinity game or you don’t. I chose not to and played GW2. If that is what you are looking for then maybe you should reevaluate your game decision instead of trying to break this one.

I agree with you 100%. zerker, or pure DPS and DPS support only should NEVER EVER have been required for optimal content completion. It is stupid. The mental kittenation of “zerking” dungeons has caused many of us (myself included) to take very long breaks from this game, while many others have left it entirely. Only thing that has brought me back to try it out again are the recent changes, along with QOL improvements such as ability to change stats on ascended gear, but even that is falling short in a lot of areas.

Magaservers are basically the result of dwindling population of players leaving due to zerker boredom.

Original soft trinity was supposed to be required for optimal content completion, but as recently stated by a-net, they basically screwed up and as one of the lead devs put it, the DPS meta is a “design flaw” which will be corrected in the future content.

If they do it right, you will still be able to finish content in full DPS group set up, just not in an optimal manner but rather as it was originally intended, which includes the GW2 soft trinity of Control / Support / DPS instead of the hard trinities of other games consisting of Tank / Heals / DPS.

The META does use the soft trinity of Control / Support / DPS. That is what makes me laugh the most. Every META build does damage, support and control. That is why the players who are usually so anti-meta are the same ones who often cry about the zerker meta and describe it as stand in a corner and spam 1 which is laughably wrong and would result in a wipe.

Mitch.4781:

Pifil.5193:

Mitch.4781:

Substatic.6958:

Trinity is better than whatever the hell it is that dungeons have now.

Ok…Why is it better? I can tell you that the thought of having to wait half an hour for a healer for Cof1 and then abandoning the dungeon halfway in leaving us to wait another 30 mins for a healer, or a tank that keeps failing at tanking Alpha in COE; would be beyond frustrating.

They did away with the old mechanics of trinity for a very very good reason. That you prefer the old way of doing things should tell you that GW2 is not the game for you.

Rather than expect Anet to spend time and money developing the game around your personal needs, why not try out SWTOR or a little game called World of Warcraft. One is a sci fi setting, one is a fantasy.

I am sure either of those will be perfectly appropriate for your needs and other people like you.

They removed dedicated healers and tank professions, they renamed those roles to support and control, so the point is that any profession can “heal” (support) or “tank”. So you shouldn’t be waiting 30 minutes for a healer ever as people can switch their builds on the fly. In fact I haven’t played any MMOs where I was waiting 30 minutes for a healer since vanilla wow; they fixed the tank and healer shortage by making other classes effective at tanking and healing in TBC.

Also, this may come as a shock, but you telling people to go play wow or other games will have no effect on whether or not they introduce a need for “tanking” in this game. I know, I know, it’s almost as if they’re not creating this game_ just_ for you, but hey, that’s life.

So basically you’re advocating the current GW2 system right? So why are you crying? This will obviously come as a shock to YOU, but the point went waaay over your head. The poster was advocating the old trinity system from old gen mmos. That is, the Reintroduction of SPECIFIC Healers and tanks, no doubt removing those functions from dps classes. I don’t know when you last played WOW, but judging by your TBC comment it must be 7 years ago! I played CATA and MOP and guess what, there are STILL queues for healers and tanks. Just like there are STILL queues for healers and Tanks in SWTOR. Fixed the healer and Tank shortage? What utter GARBAGE! The old flaws still remain and guess what…people don’t like waiting for very specific roles. We want to get in and PLAY.

They aren’t creating this game for me, they have created this game for themselves and people like me who were incredibly bored and tired of the old outdated trinity system. I know that sucks for you, but hey, that’s life.

I’m not “crying”, I’m neither for nor against the classic trinity but you continue making wild kittenumptions about what people want or believe if that makes you feel better. I was also not advocating anything just explaining what we have in GW2 now. The poster you quoted merely said that the trinity was better than what we have in dungeons now (and I think he might have a point there, GW2 dungeons are terrible IMO) but you somehow managed to craft an entire agenda from that that apparently includes removing the ability to DPS from certain professions. Maybe you should spend more time reading what people are actually saying and spend less time making up stuff they aren’t?

I also played wow in every expansion including this year and I haven’t been kept waiting for healers since vanilla so I don’t know what you’re doing wrong.

Edit: bloody predictive text

Khisanth.2948:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Khristophoros.7194:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

My concern is exactly how much unavoidable damage they’ll be throwing at us. The thing with standard tank/heal/dps games is that the scales between different archetypes are huge.

In GW2, the scales between them are small. The difference between someone running around in full GC as compared to, say, knights gear isn’t that big. It is only about 60% higher effective health, which may seem like a lot until you realize it just means you’ll be taking 37.5% less damage. That is less than the innate difference between some classes.

As much as I am for gear diversity, I can’t forget this fact. Gear diversity is about preference in play more than anything else, because as the game stands it currently can’t handle a traditional trinity setup.

That IS a lot. It’s not just more EHP, it’s also more Effective Healing.

Put that toughness on a necro with blood magic, wells healing you for just shy of 200 per tick per enemy and yeah it’s a big deal.

It really isn’t when comparing thresholds of damage. On paper it seems good in the long term, but in reality that extra amount of EHP frequently won’t mean a thing. While fighting champions in silverwastes and drytop, I will very frequently be hit with an attack that goes for 16k or so in a single strike. That number is 10k in knights gear. The overall takeaway of this? You still die in two hits, and your toughness has gained you nothing.

As much as I’d like to make the necro the tank (BTW, vampiric rituals only heals for 110 per tick), Death Shroud blocking healing makes supporting them inconsistent. You’d be better off with a class that can chain invulnerability skills.

You missed this in the patch notes.

Blood Magic traits that siphon health now heal through shroud. Additionally, siphon damage and healing from traits is now called out in the combat log.

but yes … the siphons do look very underwhelming when looking at the actual numbers in the combat log. it looks much more impressive as a cloud of green numbers.

I didn’t. I’m referring to group heals. Blast finishers in water fields, Ventari’s Tablet, etc.

Linfang.1087:

“dust off that toughness gear to bulk up and tank some heavy hits to protect the condition-build players in the back. "

Notice they mention Condition players in the back? Assuming you wont have the toughness and vitality to take any hits doing direct damage in condi gear? It sounds like they want ranged condi which sucks. What about melee condi roles?

That particular statement makes it sound like there will be encounters with unavoidable damage in AoE/cleave form in close, with ranged support and damage. The damage soaker stays in close — still using evade/block/invulnerable/cc for big hits — while the ranged support helps keep the soak alive and the Condi DPS max their rotations to keep the health down-ticks high. Throw in some phases with “You must run/jump/glide/something and/or do X/Y/Z to proceed.” and we’ll have an ANet version of challenge involving survival and support specs.

Khristophoros.7194:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Khristophoros.7194:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

My concern is exactly how much unavoidable damage they’ll be throwing at us. The thing with standard tank/heal/dps games is that the scales between different archetypes are huge.

In GW2, the scales between them are small. The difference between someone running around in full GC as compared to, say, knights gear isn’t that big. It is only about 60% higher effective health, which may seem like a lot until you realize it just means you’ll be taking 37.5% less damage. That is less than the innate difference between some classes.

As much as I am for gear diversity, I can’t forget this fact. Gear diversity is about preference in play more than anything else, because as the game stands it currently can’t handle a traditional trinity setup.

That IS a lot. It’s not just more EHP, it’s also more Effective Healing.

Put that toughness on a necro with blood magic, wells healing you for just shy of 200 per tick per enemy and yeah it’s a big deal.

It really isn’t when comparing thresholds of damage. On paper it seems good in the long term, but in reality that extra amount of EHP frequently won’t mean a thing. While fighting champions in silverwastes and drytop, I will very frequently be hit with an attack that goes for 16k or so in a single strike. That number is 10k in knights gear. The overall takeaway of this? You still die in two hits, and your toughness has gained you nothing.

As much as I’d like to make the necro the tank (BTW, vampiric rituals only heals for 110 per tick), Death Shroud blocking healing makes supporting them inconsistent. You’d be better off with a class that can chain invulnerability skills.

If the hits are that big you’re supposed to dodge them or use shroud to absorb them when you’re out of endurance. Shroud has 50% damage reduction so you can take 4 of those hits, or 6 of those hits if you have protection on too.

The point I was making is a character can provide their own sustain. A necro doesn’t need external healing. Between blood magic and shroud you have enough.

Vamp rituals is 110, then you get about 40 each from both other siphon traits for the damaging wells, so that is about 190 per enemy per tick. And the non-damaging wells only heal for 110 per tick per enemy. Of course that’s only the wells. The necro gets more siphons in addition to that.

The point I’m making is that the game isn’t designed to handle a trinity system. Stats are scaled toward personal performance, balancing outgoing damage and total health around a relatively tiny pivot. This is done for PVP’s sake, so a player doesn’t go totally out of control as the extreme end of either spectrum. This isn’t about any particular class, either. You’re arbitrarily bringing up necromancer as an example, but what about the other classes? There are situations in this game where I’ve been hit for nearly twice my total effective HP on my thief. By a champions auto attack Solo. Switching to full knights gear means absolutely nothing in that circumstance.

And those examples are only situations where it is useless. Also think about situations where it is nigh useless. Even if we assume tankier gear buys you an attack or two, how long does that really last? How big of a contribution does it make to your team to survive one extra attack? There’s no aggro management system in the game, so having high EHP might result in the big bad bosses running right past you.

Actually, the ability to survive one more attack can be a big deal, if you can get enough HP back (regen, heals, lifesteals, self-heal skill) between hits that you actually survive four or five more over the course of a fight. It also can give you more room to screw up in fights that are all about avoiding the big hits, which could be the difference between a wipe or not.

And if the fight is more about pressure from repeated, unavoidable or hard to avoid small hits (maybe combined with conditions), the time it buys could be big. This is particularly true if you have some way to make up for the damage stat you gave up to get extra survivability, like rangers and their Opening Strikes, or necros and their massive crit boosts in Death Shroud.

To do that, you would need an incredible amount of fast healing. So much that you’ll be healing for nearly as much as the enemy hits you for. This doesn’t make durability practical, since there isn’t any situation in the game where you can’t pile enough healing on to make it all better.

Not so much if the enemy only hits you once in a while (rare AoEs or unblockable attacks) or if you only get hit when you miss a tell and goon up your cooldowns, say (and those tells can be hard to see in a stack, or if there’s lag).

That concept doesn’t apply if you’re being continuously pounded, of course – as you say, that would require a ton of healing. Although, the less you’re being hit for, the less healing you need, but that’s not the dynamic anybody really wants outside of a few rare instances.

K have fun asking for the trinity, I am tired of arguing in circles with people. I’m going to just hope Anet is smart enough to ignore people who joined a non-trinity game and ask for a trinity.

This is a good change. In a game where you can rebuild your entire character in seconds and every class can fill every role pretty much there is really no reason why we shouldn’t have to use the full range of possible specs.

The problem with Trinity in MMOs isn’t that there is a need for tanks and healers, it’s that you need to very specifically build a tank or healer and as a result nobody gets to play the game if people who like building those kinds of characters aren’t available.

In Guild Wars 2 however that pretty much can’t happen, since essentially every class has the capability of filling every role.

Granted, we haven’t quite reached the holy grail of RPGs yet where everyone just does whatever they want and the groups success comes down to how well everyone does that thing rather than what that thing is. But when we get there, yea, people will be playing tanks and healers right along DPS.

If the enemy only hits you once in awhile, then active defenses will cover it, and you won’t need toughness or healing. That’s why the zerker meta works currently. The inability to see is only a minor detraction.

They might simply have a new challenge.
It would be nice if they do something like…
Drain all player of their stamina & roll out cone/line of heavy attack. You block it, ppl behind you survives. No dodge rolling…. or even wave of such attacks.. dodge dodge block block.. Out of dodge and block… opps.. two more waves coming.

Or attacks might be just unblock-able.

Who knows what awaits in those dungeons of death. But it would certainly be fun. It would be nice to see if people actually started dropping those zerk gear & actually fighting the boss with its mechanics. :P

But in few short days, they will find a way to remove that challenge and pull the boss in some dark dusty corner to kill him without him moving a finger.

it is funny how the enemy Ai acts, since I start an attack user like 4 skills, my friend hits them once and suddenly, they want to go hug my friend.

Khisanth.2948:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Khristophoros.7194:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

My concern is exactly how much unavoidable damage they’ll be throwing at us. The thing with standard tank/heal/dps games is that the scales between different archetypes are huge.

In GW2, the scales between them are small. The difference between someone running around in full GC as compared to, say, knights gear isn’t that big. It is only about 60% higher effective health, which may seem like a lot until you realize it just means you’ll be taking 37.5% less damage. That is less than the innate difference between some classes.

As much as I am for gear diversity, I can’t forget this fact. Gear diversity is about preference in play more than anything else, because as the game stands it currently can’t handle a traditional trinity setup.

That IS a lot. It’s not just more EHP, it’s also more Effective Healing.

Put that toughness on a necro with blood magic, wells healing you for just shy of 200 per tick per enemy and yeah it’s a big deal.

It really isn’t when comparing thresholds of damage. On paper it seems good in the long term, but in reality that extra amount of EHP frequently won’t mean a thing. While fighting champions in silverwastes and drytop, I will very frequently be hit with an attack that goes for 16k or so in a single strike. That number is 10k in knights gear. The overall takeaway of this? You still die in two hits, and your toughness has gained you nothing.

As much as I’d like to make the necro the tank (BTW, vampiric rituals only heals for 110 per tick), Death Shroud blocking healing makes supporting them inconsistent. You’d be better off with a class that can chain invulnerability skills.

You missed this in the patch notes.

Blood Magic traits that siphon health now heal through shroud. Additionally, siphon damage and healing from traits is now called out in the combat log.

but yes … the siphons do look very underwhelming when looking at the actual numbers in the combat log. it looks much more impressive as a cloud of green numbers.

It looks impressive when I drop 2 wells in a pack of mobs and my health goes from 50% to 100%

To the op and only the Op .
you don’t hold Agro , you don’t redirect damage unless you Build your skills around Taunt (which don’t work well at all vs bosses) while Preventing your allies from taking damage , its called taking the Bullet for Higher chances of success.

and what normaly comes with toughness is the more effective Res traits you can take more hits you can res for longer making the most out of the Res traits we currently have , improves chances of survival wave after wave.

its not Tanking, its taking Damage with Style.

Rauderi.8706:

Considering how much damage enemies in Verdant Brink do, I laugh, outright laugh, at the notion of ‘tanks’ at the moment. And healing power is still in the gutter as a stat, which would be one way for a tank to do more.

My shadow refuge is up from the 200s to mid 400s per tick with a little bit of healing power gear meaning an ascended triforge, set of exotic zealot’s shoulders and ascended zealot’s pants. I’ll replace the shoulders with ascended berzerker though.

Tashigi.3159:

Bishop.7140:

Please stick to your original game design with no trinity.

No.
Get out.
PVE content/dungeons is broken as kitten. Comparing it to other similar MMO reveals that instantly.
This game needs to keep what it has and also evolve beyond that. If that requires that we have a form of holy trinity, what’s to hate?
Besides, changing your build/gear is easy and I hear they plan to add gear sets; so it’ll be even easier.

Stop hating on the holy trinity.
It’s great.

So you get to tell people to get out? How about you take your own advice?

The trinity is great? Go play a trinity game. This is not one and should not be one.

Harper.4173:

Tashigi.3159:

Bishop.7140:

Please stick to your original game design with no trinity.

No.
Get out.
PVE content/dungeons is broken as kitten. Comparing it to other similar MMO reveals that instantly.
This game needs to keep what it has and also evolve beyond that. If that requires that we have a form of holy trinity, what’s to hate?
Besides, changing your build/gear is easy and I hear they plan to add gear sets; so it’ll be even easier.

Stop hating on the holy trinity.
It’s great.

So you get to tell people to get out? How about you take your own advice?

The trinity is great? Go play a trinity game. This is not one and should not be one.

+1 this. Hundreds of trinity games out there. This isn’t supposed to be one. Go play one of those if you want, don’t change a game into something its not supposed to be.

Doggie.3184:

People who enjoy playing healing classes are just lazy. :| I don’t see the appeal or desire, it’s so intensely boring in MMOs and waiting around to find people to fill those roles is annoying. Anet were one of the few developers smart enough to understand that.

Sounds like you haven’t spent much time as a healer. Playing a true healer spec can be just rewarding and challenging as any other. Plus If grp fails guess who gets blamed. That being said, being a healer in large grp encounters won’t really work like a true healer in gw2, in any event. There’s no addons to see all players health bars simultaneously beyond your direct party. Personally I think Herald will be a much more valuable asset in the coming content than Ventari.

The day they add healers to the game is the day i quit playing ele. I played healer in another mmo for 4 years. I was starring at the party setting all whilst having 15 panic buttons to press to save the tank, heal the healers, top off the dps, cleanse, cleanse, cleanse, cleanse, combat rezz, and holy kitten i need to run out of the aoe and avoid the wave of what ever that is flashing around on the screen. I was good, i was really good, but after i started to play gw2 i realised it was insane and totally stupid that i should have to spend my game time to keep the raid alive when they can do it them self.

I went back to this game for a short visit to check some new features a month back, and i tell you i felt rage when i could not use a freaking cleanse skill, and had to use potions to keep me alive if the healer could not be so kind to cleanse me or heal.
Not being able to take care of my self is just terrible and what i love about GW2, i can surive without having to rely on a healer, and if people whine about heal i tell them i gave them the waterfield, if they did not blast, well then not my problem. This is whats making GW2 special, you share what you can share and you take care of your own health, i dont have to watch the partysettings anymore, i can actually watch the action on the screen instead.

They are adding challenging stuff zerg meta need to go adding instance that require roll other than damage is most welcome