Guild Wars 2

GuzziHero.2467:

With all the over-use of CCs in some places, over-use of insta-gibs in others, there is just no incentive to run a tank or a healer. You have nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

GW2 will never, without very significant changes, support Trinity play, nor should it.

Tens of thousands of players, like myself, would run to the hills if strong Trinity was implemented.

I don’t think that anyone is arguing for a strong trinity. I would love a weak trinity where supportive play (damage mitigation, buffs, debuffs, control, etc) is actually a rewarding experience, instead of just a weight on your group’s speed run.

Silverwastes is actually a pretty good example of this in the live game. I love playing it on my zerker longbow ranger, but I also enjoy keeping people at high(ish) health and condi-free on my support shout warrior and pumping out heal/bringing people up on my Bloodmagic Necromancer… and it actually is helpful to the group and is somewhat necessary.

GuzziHero.2467:

With all the over-use of CCs in some places, over-use of insta-gibs in others, there is just no incentive to run a tank or a healer. You have nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

GW2 will never, without very significant changes, support Trinity play, nor should it.

Tens of thousands of players, like myself, would run to the hills if strong Trinity was implemented.

The content in this game should not be so easy that pve content can be rolled over in just a few minutes while using half of the combat system while the rest of it just sits there. All classes being able to support all roles doesn’t make for a strong trinity. It makes for a better layered combat system.

MattyP.6954:

GuzziHero.2467:

With all the over-use of CCs in some places, over-use of insta-gibs in others, there is just no incentive to run a tank or a healer. You have nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

GW2 will never, without very significant changes, support Trinity play, nor should it.

Tens of thousands of players, like myself, would run to the hills if strong Trinity was implemented.

I don’t think that anyone is arguing for a strong trinity. I would love a weak trinity where supportive play (damage mitigation, buffs, debuffs, control, etc) is actually a rewarding experience, instead of just a weight on your group’s speed run.

Silverwastes is actually a pretty good example of this in the live game. I love playing it on my zerker longbow ranger, but I also enjoy keeping people at high(ish) health and condi-free on my support shout warrior and pumping out heal/bringing people up on my Bloodmagic Necromancer… and it actually is helpful to the group and is somewhat necessary.

This completely. Support roles have been pushed so far to the side, with the expetion is of platinums idea of it. That players who would like to engage In those roles feel punished because there is no rewarding feeling in playing those roles , the game as it is now just doesn’t have a use for it. So it doesn’t have a use for those players.

PlatinumMember.5274:

So from now until that mystical expansion whenever arena net coughs your hype changes? That sucks for you and you should learn to not get hype about new products.

Your interpretation of what Colin said is WRONG. Damage will always be emphasized because how else will the mob hp drop? What Colin said was, they don’t forced roles via holy trinity and that gw2 has soft roles. That means support, damage and control. You will always to do require damage, that’s a basic fact. He did say that current system heavily favors damage while control gets screwed via defiance, but in HOT that gets fixed. Support has always been there via buffs, regen, protect etc. in hot if boss mechanics improve players will have to time their control and hopefully boss will not allow themselves to get burst down quickly, whether by the boss based on the AI video running away to reposition itself to avoid getting melee to death.

The truth is a lot of people like yourself don’t understand the combat system very well. Zerker will probably still be the best armor set in PvE unless the content is so tough that heavily punishes mistakes and boss mechanics improve significantly from the current lack of any in PvE.

Also there is something you must learn today, roles are not related to armor stats you wear. Roles are built into traits, weapon and ultities, class mechanics. Stats only improve the strength of the soft role you play. So healing power increases regen given to players (support). Depending on the class, good players can do all 3 soft roles, while in zerker gear. Other type of gear like pvt, exist for less skilled players in PvE.

In any case what Colin said is not brand new information. This was stated 2 years ago. However, thanks to the AI improvements coming in hot this might finally happen, if you want to get easily hyped (since it seems you are) find the video online.

Also that is

This is quite possibly one of the most condescending posts I have read on here in quite awhile, although I must admit I haven’t been on here in a few weeks.

First of all, I would disagree with nearly everything you said, but I’ll start with the fact that you’re basically saying his interpretation of what Colin said was wrong, even though he pretty much nailed exactly what Colin said. GW2 meant to get away from the Trinity, but not completely abandon healing or support roles. Their main goal was to make sure players never had to sit and wait for a healer to play the game.

Secondly, you went on a rant about game mechanics instead of actually addressing what the topic is about, i.e. what Colin actually said. Honestly, judging by your comments, it doesn’t even come off like you listened to the poi or even knew thats what the OP was talking about.

meeflak.9714:

Collin came out for the poi and specifically said that, guild wars 2 was never meant to emphasize damage while ignoring support/healing roles. There take on the trinity was to address the problem of professions only having one role, and to instead make it possible for every class to be able to preform any role they wished.

If the idea is to allow classes to be flexible enough to assume any role, it’s rather critical to actually give them the tools to do that; it’s difficult to believe they wanted everyone to be able to fill the role of a tank with absolutely no aggro management or to fill the healing role when the only decent source of outgoing healing is to blast water fields (which anybody can do and do just as well as a dedicated healer).

So either they didn’t want tanking and healing roles from the start and have changed their minds, or they did want it and completely forget to actually implement it for the past three years.

If it’s true. I welcome it . What are your thoughts

I’m ambivalent. On on hand I don’t feel there’s a need for tanks or healers, but on the other hand I think it would be nice for people trying to roll as tanks or healers to have the ability to contribute something to the party in exchange for the DPS they sacrificed.

I think the idea was that originally they wanted each class to be able to play a certain role in their own way. If every class can bring something to the table and not just one defined role, then likely every player would always be able to play the game and not have to sit around looking for a match. If they never intended healing or tanking to be in the game, I doubt they would have wasted time on healing abilities, healing gear, block abilities or moments of invulnerability. So I doubt they were trying to eliminate them altogether.

I just think as they started balancing the classes, they realized its hard to make 8 different classes be able to fill multiple roles without overlap and making them feel less and less unique. I’m guessing that with HoT and whatever they add on, they’re going to try and increase the chances that players will be able to increase roles they can do with each class while not forcing players into a trinity.

Broom.2561:

Aeolus.3615:

Thaddeus.4891:

(…)

It doesn’t seem at all like trinity and it sound awesome. If they can pull it off.

Yeah it would be awesome if they could put soft roles into classes, i had more gameplay options with the last traits system than the actual one, the actual state is damage optimization or gtfo.

That’s not really different from Trinity games. Hardly anyone WANTS to play a tank or dedicated healer, max DPS is generally the most popular option. Leading to – as another poster already mentioned – endless requests of the type ‘group looking for healer/tank’.

At the moment is impossible to play a defensive/supportive build on WvW.

As defense i mean mace/shield guard as example, it was kinda good in some situations before the trait update system, now its impossible to play that weapon combo, it is ok in spvp against players that dont know how to counter it.

What Colin J.says is not the same has trinity game, its not a healer nor a tank, but a option for all classes to play in a more defensive way wich actually dont work, this worries some players because most want to kill fast they dont want to think besides use skill rotation in a mindless gameplay, that is not a healthy gameplay, players need to think to.
I felt rewarded by killing targets super fast i felt i was contributing, but i wasn’t doing the job there, all i was was pressing a few skills, it is a bit of a reward trap there it is a matter of balance and game sanity and being a game where killing a target becomes easier w/o much effort imo it looses all the interest.

Killface.1896:

We have like 20+ armor sets in this game think its ok they add more roles to this game than only zerg

Shinji.2063:

You bring any of those phrases in GW2 and you get chewed out. “Go play wow”, “GW2 was never ment to have them GTFO”

So what do all those naysayers have to say now that the devs has said that was never their intention. Now maybe when some players talk about the way they want portions of future content with maybe more emphasis on fights with roles they wont just be swept under the rug on the guise of “that does not belong in GW”

well, they did hype the game as trinity free, so if it was never their intention, it probably wasn’t their intention as a grind free game wasn’t the intention, or not having us chasing for new gear with improved stats wasn’t their intention, and so on, and so on.
(

If they did say that a trinity free game wasn’t their intention (mind quoting the source?) then this game might as well be renamed: ‘false advertising wars’.

The source is the video.

MattyP.6954:

GuzziHero.2467:

With all the over-use of CCs in some places, over-use of insta-gibs in others, there is just no incentive to run a tank or a healer. You have nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

GW2 will never, without very significant changes, support Trinity play, nor should it.

Tens of thousands of players, like myself, would run to the hills if strong Trinity was implemented.

I don’t think that anyone is arguing for a strong trinity. I would love a weak trinity where supportive play (damage mitigation, buffs, debuffs, control, etc) is actually a rewarding experience, instead of just a weight on your group’s speed run.

Silverwastes is actually a pretty good example of this in the live game. I love playing it on my zerker longbow ranger, but I also enjoy keeping people at high(ish) health and condi-free on my support shout warrior and pumping out heal/bringing people up on my Bloodmagic Necromancer… and it actually is helpful to the group and is somewhat necessary.

This is exactly correct. Unfortunately it’s completely lost on the rabid anti-trinity crowd. Apparently people like just zerging. Which I will never understand.

I did not find any evidence on video about trinity on gw2, care to enlighten me?

@OP, the reason why support roles fail to get attention in Guild Wars 2 is not because people do not enjoy being support, it is because without the DPS from zerk/soldier/power/crit damage in general, you get NO LOOT… Therefore, support roles = no loot. If players earned rewards for buffing / healing their fellow players, then there would be a lot more Support players running around. This has been an issue since Beta when the whole, “Play Your Way” was announced. It quickly became, “You can Play Your Way as Support, but Do NOT expect to get Loot”. If they find a way to include Amount of Health Healed During X Event, then MAYBE people will support again.

Aeolus.3615:

I did not find any evidence on video about trinity on gw2, care to enlighten me?

It’s around the 5 minute mark where he talks about their intentions.

The trinity is something from traditional rpg-action games. GW 2 is different. Everything is in balance on the open world. It does not matter what profession / race, everything is properly capped or boosted. Only at team actions something reminding of the trinity takes place: there you may have different roles for professions though not as strictly as in traditional rpg games. Anyway, it’s not really something to bother about.

Albadaran.1283:

The trinity is something from traditional rpg-action games. GW 2 is different. Everything is in balance on the open world. It does not matter what profession / race, everything is properly capped or boosted. Only at team actions something reminding of the trinity takes place: there you may have different roles for professions though not as strictly as in traditional rpg games. Anyway, it’s not really something to bother about.

You think everything is in balance in the open world?

Shootsfoot.9276:

Albadaran.1283:

The trinity is something from traditional rpg-action games. GW 2 is different. Everything is in balance on the open world. It does not matter what profession / race, everything is properly capped or boosted. Only at team actions something reminding of the trinity takes place: there you may have different roles for professions though not as strictly as in traditional rpg games. Anyway, it’s not really something to bother about.

You think everything is in balance in the open world?

As in players combat vs environment: yes. Does not matter what profession / race you are, no peaks. As for team actions, well we just saw how long it took to get Tequatl back to the old event before the skill patches. Not talking about those events…

DarkSyze.8627:

Aeolus.3615:

I did not find any evidence on video about trinity on gw2, care to enlighten me?

For me: I hide evidence video because Arena net will punish me and delete evidence. That is why i write instead with quotes and edit source.

I am El Presidente of The Earth. I hide evidence because Lizzard people will punish me and delete evidence.

meeflak.9714:

I’m sure many of us, me for example, missed the poi for this week. After hearing what the devs had to say I thought it would be worth putting into the forums .

Collin came out for the poi and specifically said that, guild wars 2 was never meant to emphasize damage while ignoring support/healing roles. There take on the trinity was to address the problem of professions only having one role, and to instead make it possible for every class to be able to preform any role they wished.

He then went on to say that they are pushing for an emphasis in those roles, and said that new content coming in heart of thrones will require some support and healing .

Idk I thought it was a pretty big deal to be hearing this, and haven’t seen nearly enough talk about it

If it’s true. I welcome it . What are your thoughts

I call BS.

in Rift, which is a Trinity game,

all support have to do dps in the dungeon group
&
Healers can do damage as well such as Mage Healer
&
DPS does just that
&
Tanks dish out either good damage or good heals

In that trinity game nobody is forced to play one single role.

here in GW2 DPS> All and basically only has DPS role. Their is no optional play style.

there is no option to play tank in group pve.
there is no option to play healer in group pve.

only DPS or gtfo.

Albadaran.1283:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Albadaran.1283:

The trinity is something from traditional rpg-action games. GW 2 is different. Everything is in balance on the open world. It does not matter what profession / race, everything is properly capped or boosted. Only at team actions something reminding of the trinity takes place: there you may have different roles for professions though not as strictly as in traditional rpg games. Anyway, it’s not really something to bother about.

You think everything is in balance in the open world?

As in players combat vs environment: yes. Does not matter what profession / race you are, no peaks. As for team actions, well we just saw how long it took to get Tequatl back to the old event before the skill patches. Not talking about those events…

So you’re saying you’re ok with these world boss zergfests. Just trying to clarify.

I welcome more roles, like supports or even healers.

All I don’t want to see is any content that require a fully geared Tank, and a fully geared Healer kind of combat. If there are combat that require more healing, so be it, I hope at least make it so content can be completed by hybrid players.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

I did not find any evidence on video about trinity on gw2, care to enlighten me?

It’s around the 5 minute mark where he talks about their intentions.

I listen it again from 4.30 to ~7min , and didn’t find any clue or definition of trinity, i did noticed Coling talking about making defensive traits/skill more effective w/o killing the focus into DPS (wich is actually what Tank means to Anet).

Which actually playing on support/defense is impossible outside spvp, he is talking a more seamless combat experience at least for Ravenant and i hope mace/shield guardian gets fixed for wvw to.

U had semi-working roles in the last trait system.

meeflak.9714:

I’m sure many of us, me for example, missed the poi for this week. After hearing what the devs had to say I thought it would be worth putting into the forums .

Collin came out for the poi and specifically said that, guild wars 2 was never meant to emphasize damage while ignoring support/healing roles. There take on the trinity was to address the problem of professions only having one role, and to instead make it possible for every class to be able to preform any role they wished.

He then went on to say that they are pushing for an emphasis in those roles, and said that new content coming in heart of thrones will require some support and healing .

Idk I thought it was a pretty big deal to be hearing this, and haven’t seen nearly enough talk about it

If it’s true. I welcome it . What are your thoughts

If it’s true then they’ve gone full 180 on their initial vision.

Their initial vision as they described it before the game launched included a game where you didn’t need a healer. Period.
Everyone had their own healing skill and as long as people did their jobs right you didn’t need someone to heal specifically.

They did this to address the classic “GLF 1 more healer to go” problem most trinity-based games encounter. And it worked as far as I’m concerned.

Personally I don’t think they’ll design content that requires that someone heals and supports and is fully dedicated to it. If they do they will have basically given up on their initial philosophy and given in to the “omg I want to be a special healer QQ pls Anet” posts on the forums.

Where exactly does he state specifically that content in HoT will require someone healing/supporting?

Crossaber.8934:

I welcome more roles, like supports or even healers.

All I don’t want to see is any content that require a fully geared Tank, and a fully geared Healer kind of combat. If there are combat that require more healing, so be it, I hope at least make it so content can be completed by hybrid players.

Except for a very small percentage, I think that’s pretty much what everybody is looking for.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

DarkSyze.8627:

Aeolus.3615:

I did not find any evidence on video about trinity on gw2, care to enlighten me?

For me: I hide evidence video because Arena net will punish me and delete evidence. That is why i write instead with quotes and edit source.

I am president of The Earth. I hide evidence because Lizzard people will punish me and delete evidence.

" I love people that know exactly how to ‘handle me’ without being immature "

" Remember, it’s mandatory to grow old, but it’s optional to grow up "

Fox.3469:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

My thoughts? I’m sick of hearing about the trinity. If players want that, they can return to Warcraft. Please don’t bring that tragedy to Guild Wars 2.

All players want is for not all the game to be so easy bested by 5 zerkers. I think that is a fair request. Imo berserker armor should be something you use when you are in a group that you know can support you wearing it, not for every instance of the game.

Because it’s so easy to 5man zerk things. That’s why your average pug does so well.

Let’s stop kidding ourselves here – the game isn’t easy for a 5 man zerker team. The game is just old. The content is stale.

Bring in 5 new people – deck them out in full zerk and send them on their happy way through the dungeons – see what happens.

The problem is that the content is old and people have basically learned it by heart – this is not a gear set issue.

Why would I need someone “supporting me” when I know the content so well I literally cannot be touched if I’m on my game?

The idea that there’s a “rabid anti-trinity crowd” is a myth. The idea that it’s somehow the alternative to zergs is even more laughable.

The ‘standard’ model for a PvE combat encounter in nearly any MMO is as follows:

“Deal with mechanics X, Y, and Z without losing too much DPS”

Either there’ll be an actual bar that the group’s DPS has to clear in order to win at all, or you’ll simply want plenty of DPS in order to end the fight quickly.

In nearly every MMO with the holy trinity, it’s normal for healers to contribute to DPS and for tanks to start switching to DPS gear and more aggressive playstyles once they’re confident that they can deal with the damage and other mechanics of the fight. Sometimes, healers are even used specifically to deal with adds — e.g., using healer aggro to pick up the adds and position them or bait them towards the tank; or using their damage skills to take care of certain types of adds so that the regular DPS can concentrate on the boss.

In any event, if you want a smooth, fast run of any dungeon in GW2, you will already use all sorts of support and utility throughout:

• Noncombat utility: stealth, portals, swiftness, teleports
• Mob movement and positioning: pulls, pushes, swiftness, teleports, escapes
• Crowd control and interrupts: stuns, deep freeze, head shots
• Area ‘hard’ damage mitigation and ‘ultimate’ heals: aegis, reflects, blinds
• Area ‘soft’ damage mitigation and pressure healing: protection, vigour
• In-combat utility: cleanses, dispels, corrupts, and poison
• Offensive support: might, vulnerability

Every character will normally bring a whole bunch of these things as part of their overall toolkit. On top of that, you’ve got some personal defensive skills and self-heals, which fulfil the same role in Guild Wars 2 that fairies and hots often do in other MMOs, as well as some damage skills, which really fulfil the same role in Guild Wars 2 that the dots and other offensive skills on healers do in other MMOs.

MattyP.6954:

Zerker armor should be a high-risk, high-reward proposition. The Reward has always been there, but the risk never has been.

Hopefully, the Expansion will fix that somewhat.

Claims like these are borderline absurd.
Were you here at the start of the game?
5 man zerk at the very beginning of the game was suicide. Heck – even melee was considered suicide.
There were endless streams of posts asking for melee to be made easier.
The risk was ( and still is for new players) there. The problem is we’ve had 3 years and the same content.

People can now solo it, people can do it naked, it’s not about their gear but abou their skill and their capacity to beat content they’ve done hundreds if not thousands of times.

meeflak.9714:

PlatinumMember.5274:

MattyP.6954:

Zerker armor should be a high-risk, high-reward proposition. The Reward has always been there, but the risk never has been.

Hopefully, the Expansion will fix that somewhat.

After 2 years of same dungeon content of course players will easily overcome any content with ease.

The longer you play content the lower the risk.

The ease came from updates that made zerker too strong and Dr emphasized other builds in the game. Dungeon runs took a lot longer and usually ended up with a lot more failures back near launch. Yes partly because players didn’t know well what they were doing. But also because dps wasn’t scaled so poorly.

When the ferocity patch came in. It was extremely noticeable that dps had just became the king. Ferocity was broken. Dungeon run times decreased dramatically because people where just rolling through the content. No body los’d every fight. Or stacked . Because zerkers melted before the could get there damage off.

We want to see content that brings this combat system out of the state its in.

You do realize that at launch dps numbers were higher than 1 year into the game.
Also please realize that the ferocity update toned down damage – they specifically said that zerker lost about 10% overall dps.
How can you claim the contrary?

Are we even playing the same game? Where are you getting this stuff? – are you making it up?

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

I did not find any evidence on video about trinity on gw2, care to enlighten me?

It’s around the 5 minute mark where he talks about their intentions.

I listen it again from 4.30 to ~7min , and didn’t find any clue or definition of trinity, i did noticed Coling talking about making defensive traits/skill more effective w/o killing the focus into DPS (wich is actually what Tank means to Anet).

Which actually playing on support/defense is impossible outside spvp, he is talking a more seamless combat experience at least for Ravenant and i hope mace/shield guardian gets fixed for wvw to.

U had semi-working roles in the last trait system.

Around the 6:30 mark. He says (roughly) “we never didn’t want to have the tank, the healer, the tank….that’s a common misconception…”

Pandaman.4758:

it’s difficult to believe they wanted everyone to be able to fill the role of a tank with absolutely no aggro management

Yes, because being a tank is considered a support and/or healing role.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

I did not find any evidence on video about trinity on gw2, care to enlighten me?

It’s around the 5 minute mark where he talks about their intentions.

I listen it again from 4.30 to ~7min , and didn’t find any clue or definition of trinity, i did noticed Coling talking about making defensive traits/skill more effective w/o killing the focus into DPS (wich is actually what Tank means to Anet).

Which actually playing on support/defense is impossible outside spvp, he is talking a more seamless combat experience at least for Ravenant and i hope mace/shield guardian gets fixed for wvw to.

U had semi-working roles in the last trait system.

Around the 6:30 mark. He says (roughly) “we never didn’t want to have the tank, the healer, the tank….that’s a common misconception…”

Afraid that need o put some effort into kill some one?

Like i said, Tank Anet definition is not what ur thinking, u had sturdy but not invincible guardians at front line, they were just there controlling the bad players(has a unorganized group) mostly, they could be easilly downed with a spike call.

it will never reach the lvl of the trinity and will be far from that.

Damage is easy to make and players feel rewarded by putting less effort but makes others stats invaliable and defensive traits.

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

I did not find any evidence on video about trinity on gw2, care to enlighten me?

It’s around the 5 minute mark where he talks about their intentions.

I listen it again from 4.30 to ~7min , and didn’t find any clue or definition of trinity, i did noticed Coling talking about making defensive traits/skill more effective w/o killing the focus into DPS (wich is actually what Tank means to Anet).

Which actually playing on support/defense is impossible outside spvp, he is talking a more seamless combat experience at least for Ravenant and i hope mace/shield guardian gets fixed for wvw to.

U had semi-working roles in the last trait system.

Around the 6:30 mark. He says (roughly) “we never didn’t want to have the tank, the healer, the tank….that’s a common misconception…”

Afraid that need o put some effort into kill some one?

Like i said, Tank Anet definition is not what ur thinking, u had sturdy but not invincible guardians at front line, they were just there controlling the bad players(has a unorganized group) mostly, they could be easilly downed with a spike call.

I’m sorry, but you’ve completely lost me. Seems you’re looking for an argument that isn’t there. You asked where Colin talks about the trinity and all I did was show you where he brings it up, that’s all.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

I did not find any evidence on video about trinity on gw2, care to enlighten me?

It’s around the 5 minute mark where he talks about their intentions.

I listen it again from 4.30 to ~7min , and didn’t find any clue or definition of trinity, i did noticed Coling talking about making defensive traits/skill more effective w/o killing the focus into DPS (wich is actually what Tank means to Anet).

Which actually playing on support/defense is impossible outside spvp, he is talking a more seamless combat experience at least for Ravenant and i hope mace/shield guardian gets fixed for wvw to.

U had semi-working roles in the last trait system.

Around the 6:30 mark. He says (roughly) “we never didn’t want to have the tank, the healer, the tank….that’s a common misconception…”

Afraid that need o put some effort into kill some one?

Like i said, Tank Anet definition is not what ur thinking, u had sturdy but not invincible guardians at front line, they were just there controlling the bad players(has a unorganized group) mostly, they could be easilly downed with a spike call.

I’m sorry, but you’ve completely lost me. Seems you’re looking for an argument that isn’t there. You asked where Colin talks about the trinity and all I did was show you where he brings it up, that’s all.

he is not talking about trinity has you know, hard to understand, u had a soft trinity in the previous trait system becouse defensive roles worked.
:)

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

I did not find any evidence on video about trinity on gw2, care to enlighten me?

It’s around the 5 minute mark where he talks about their intentions.

I listen it again from 4.30 to ~7min , and didn’t find any clue or definition of trinity, i did noticed Coling talking about making defensive traits/skill more effective w/o killing the focus into DPS (wich is actually what Tank means to Anet).

Which actually playing on support/defense is impossible outside spvp, he is talking a more seamless combat experience at least for Ravenant and i hope mace/shield guardian gets fixed for wvw to.

U had semi-working roles in the last trait system.

Around the 6:30 mark. He says (roughly) “we never didn’t want to have the tank, the healer, the tank….that’s a common misconception…”

Afraid that need o put some effort into kill some one?

Like i said, Tank Anet definition is not what ur thinking, u had sturdy but not invincible guardians at front line, they were just there controlling the bad players(has a unorganized group) mostly, they could be easilly downed with a spike call.

I’m sorry, but you’ve completely lost me. Seems you’re looking for an argument that isn’t there. You asked where Colin talks about the trinity and all I did was show you where he brings it up, that’s all.

he is not talking about trinity has you know, hard to understand?

:)

Where did I ever say he was?

Again, looking for an argument that isn’t there.

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Aeolus.3615:

I did not find any evidence on video about trinity on gw2, care to enlighten me?

It’s around the 5 minute mark where he talks about their intentions.

I listen it again from 4.30 to ~7min , and didn’t find any clue or definition of trinity, i did noticed Coling talking about making defensive traits/skill more effective w/o killing the focus into DPS (wich is actually what Tank means to Anet).

Which actually playing on support/defense is impossible outside spvp, he is talking a more seamless combat experience at least for Ravenant and i hope mace/shield guardian gets fixed for wvw to.

U had semi-working roles in the last trait system.

Around the 6:30 mark. He says (roughly) “we never didn’t want to have the tank, the healer, the tank….that’s a common misconception…”

Afraid that need o put some effort into kill some one?

Like i said, Tank Anet definition is not what ur thinking, u had sturdy but not invincible guardians at front line, they were just there controlling the bad players(has a unorganized group) mostly, they could be easilly downed with a spike call.

I’m sorry, but you’ve completely lost me. Seems you’re looking for an argument that isn’t there. You asked where Colin talks about the trinity and all I did was show you where he brings it up, that’s all.

he is not talking about trinity has you know, hard to understand?

:)

Be Kind

Support is already in good place in dungeon Pve. It is even a bit too strong if you count that almost every single group NEED a support guard to go through the dungeon, being for aegis, blocks, condi clean or stability.

It is possible to play support/healer with other professions already. You can be a venom thief (might, life steal, condi, stun on bosses), mantra/PU mesmer (aegis, regen, boon sharing, might from staff, stealth,heals and condi removal), water ele, EG engi, just adding a sigil of water is in fact a good help for your team….The fact those build are not meta (hence people overlook them ) is because they are either random or not as simple to play.
You won’t speedclear with those build but since 95 % of dungeon runs are not speed clear it won’t change the completion time by a lot. But in any case support is already required for dungeon in almost every team… hence the Phalanx + Guard !

That is for the playstyle. Now people tend to complain about the gear set. And yes in that case if you compare damage scaling with healing/boon duration scaling then you will see very soon that the loss of damage is not fair compared to the gain of support (aegis, block and might efficiency don’t scale with any stats, regen scale weakly with healing power). Basically better take a zerker gear and put a rune that fits what you want. Arguably sinister or other condis sets can now be considered as efficient since with short time conditions the ramp time in this game is not really huge (again not speaking about speed clearing).
Maybe the original sin was to put three damaging stats on gear like zerk or defensive like nomad. They should have done one major aggressive(but double value as minor) and two minor defensive or the contrary. That way people would have mixed their stat and even by optimizing aggressive stats, there would be more diversity for heal or toughness so that people would feel less frustrated.

In the end what was said will not really change anything, there won’t be a need of a healer or of a tank as before. It is just some PR talk to reassure people that there will be space for non-zerker in the expansion and they should look forward for it. But the truth is that there is already space for not playing zerker, and support is always needed in PVE.

They can try to retcon their history and their words all they want, but at the end of the day, the game itself was not built with the trinity in mind. If it were then there would be a way to properly pull aggro and not just some new skill that holds aggro, sort of. There would have been and will be meaningful group/area and single target heals (which still do not exist in the game) where they are beneficial to a group.

I forgot who, but someone already did the math breakdown as to why the meta has been zerk in PvE and its not because people have a chub for zerk, but because the game was designed in such a way that it is the most effective method for killing enemies with the fewest casualties.

I’d love for it to matter that I can go out in a healing build on my guardian and keep people standing in spite of themselves while possibly tanking a good amount of damage and allowing my ranged people space to melt a boss. That isn’t how this game was developed though.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

I’d love for it to matter that I can go out in a healing build on my guardian and keep people standing in spite of themselves while possibly tanking a good amount of damage and allowing my ranged people space to melt a boss. That isn’t how this game was developed though.

Let me introduce you to a set of videos that proves quite the opposite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCID7oABjK4&index=3&list=PLCxfgAjHhmmy0a29VtGeRpCK4ADb4SQTS

Just take a look. The possibility and the power are there already.

Of course it’s possible with full zerk too, meaning you’re sacrificing like 10-20% group damage to gain ease of play which with this stale content many people simply don’t want. They just want to blow things up.

There exists a lot more options than the content has encouraged us to actually utilize.

That said, I’m a bit worried about the implications of Colin’s statement. I don’t really want to have battles of attrition, I’ve never really liked them all that much. But, to encourage healing that’s what you have to make with the current systems at hand. I will say the more and more I look at things the more I like Wooden Potato’s suggestion of removing out of combat healing for certain more challenging instances. That alone I think would do a lot to encourage more healing as a team, sure it might be an organized bomb on a water field, but that’d mean less blasts on stealths/swiftness. It’d certainly change things.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Albadaran.1283:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Albadaran.1283:

The trinity is something from traditional rpg-action games. GW 2 is different. Everything is in balance on the open world. It does not matter what profession / race, everything is properly capped or boosted. Only at team actions something reminding of the trinity takes place: there you may have different roles for professions though not as strictly as in traditional rpg games. Anyway, it’s not really something to bother about.

You think everything is in balance in the open world?

As in players combat vs environment: yes. Does not matter what profession / race you are, no peaks. As for team actions, well we just saw how long it took to get Tequatl back to the old event before the skill patches. Not talking about those events…

So you’re saying you’re ok with these world boss zergfests. Just trying to clarify.

No, I would prefer a smaller chance to win to make it more exiting. But that has nothing to do with the trinity: like it or not, but the with the trinity players would use their skills to support each other with the result that the event is succesfully over as fast or even faster as it is now with the zergfests. And that is what I mean: just for the results trinity or not hardly matters…

meeflak.9714:

The ease came from updates that made zerker too strong and Dr emphasized other builds in the game. Dungeon runs took a lot longer and usually ended up with a lot more failures back near launch. Yes partly because players didn’t know well what they were doing. But also because dps wasn’t scaled so poorly.

The only patch that made zerker stronger is the most recent one and that’s because you don’t waste your stats on defensive stats because of certain traits being in defensive lines (e.g. stone splinters)

When the ferocity patch came in. It was extremely noticeable that dps had just became the king. Ferocity was broken. Dungeon run times decreased dramatically because people where just rolling through the content. No body los’d every fight. Or stacked . Because zerkers melted before the could get there damage off.

Em, are you claiming that ferocity patch increased the damage? Because that’s silly and the opposite of what really happened. The idea behind ferocity was to normalize critical damage (too much +crit dmg on trinkets in comparison to numerical stats) and decrease it. Anet’s math was telling us about 10% reduction in outgoing damage for the most offensive builds (which turned out later to be a bit higher number).

The ferocity patch didn’t increase damage but it did screw up scaling. 80 dungeons we lost damage, as you got scaled down to lower levels you actually gained damage capabilities because of poor scaling. I remember the patch we went from ~3 fiery rushes to a little over 1 to kill SQ. I was scratching my head about that one for a while. Took them over a year but they finally took a look at scaling again this last patch, and that’s why while at 80 we’re seeing a dramatic increase in damage, at lower levels we’re not seeing as much.

Geneaux.9547:

People chew them out because many individuals have twisted mindsets in that having yourself and others delegated to one task(dps, healing, or tanking) to clear a dungeon, pvp match, etc, is “fun”.

What I liked about old MMOs was the fact that there were designated jobs. I always had fun helping in a way that wasn’t the same in nearly 99% of games out there; I didn’t have to attack.

It was also fun to become known for your role… where people begged you to play with them because you rocked at the job that you did. If you got bored of healing, then switched toons to be main CC, or MA, or tank etc.

In this game, everyone does the same crap. Zerker attack mode. I find most people I associate with don’t even care what their group composition is in WvWvW. As I say in every thread I post… it feels like a red/team blue team halo match to me. Everything that made MMORPGSs unique and interesting to me has been removed.

And I agree, what I loved about MMORPGs are not popular with the rest of gamers these days.

And no. I never played WOW.

evilunderling.9265:

• Noncombat utility: stealth, portals, swiftness, teleports
• Mob movement and positioning: pulls, pushes, swiftness, teleports, escapes
• Crowd control and interrupts: stuns, deep freeze, head shots
• Area ‘hard’ damage mitigation and ‘ultimate’ heals: aegis, reflects, blinds
• Area ‘soft’ damage mitigation and pressure healing: protection, vigour
• In-combat utility: cleanses, dispels, corrupts, and poison
• Offensive support: might, vulnerability

Every character will normally bring a whole bunch of these things as part of their overall toolkit. …

There’s a kind of disconnect in the poster-base on this issue. GW2 is certainly set up to allow the various professions to provide all of the support you mention. However, we still have complaints about one-dimensional, everything-is-DPS game play. So what is the source of this disconnect?

• People look at gear, see that glass is the meta, and think there are no roles.
• Content is easy or has become easy (via practice effect) that minimal use of the various options that could be brought to the table becomes viable. Thus, in the minds of those who are “only doing DPS,” that’s all that’s going on. They either don’t see or take for granted the support/control contribution that other players are providing.

From the dribbles of information provided by ANet on this issue, it seems clear that they view the complaints about lack of roles as being rooted in a visibility issue.

• The existing roles in GW2 are less apparent because the content is generally not hard enough to demand the existing options for support and control. This makes it likely that some people are just ignoring those roles. This is especially true in most of the persistent world content. It’s also true in dungeons, primarily because of an extreme case of practice effect.
• Gear with survival stats is not in high demand in PvE because of the very nature of combat and the support/control options. Toughness and Vitality offer personal benefits, but their contribution to the group effort is minimal to non-existent, resting solely on the possibility that someone wearing such can stand in AoE long enough to revive a downed player. Making content harder might shift the gear meta on the glass/survival continuum for the whole group, but the nature of profession design makes it less likely that we will see groups where you have a Cleric, Nomad and 3 glass wearers. Mechanics that require splitting the group or which provide consistent, reliable aggro management that are needed could make a bunker build useful in those situations. However, it’s unlikely that a full spectrum of truly diverse challenges could all rely on similar mechanics to promote diverse gear use in optimized parties. Rather, you might see some players needing to carry multiple gear sets.

The biggest concern I have with whatever approach ANet is going to use to make content more challenging and interesting centers around the gear issue. I have no issue with harder content making the use of control and support more visible. However, I do not want a gear issue where players will be required to carry two or more complete gear sets both due to the storage issues and the tedium involved in switching gear.

ionix.9054:

Geneaux.9547:

People chew them out because many individuals have twisted mindsets in that having yourself and others delegated to one task(dps, healing, or tanking) to clear a dungeon, pvp match, etc, is “fun”.

What I liked about old MMOs was the fact that there were designated jobs. I always had fun helping in a way that wasn’t the same in nearly 99% of games out there; I didn’t have to attack.

It was also fun to become known for your role… where people begged you to play with them because you rocked at the job that you did. If you got bored of healing, then switched toons to be main CC, or MA, or tank etc.

In this game, everyone does the same crap. Zerker attack mode. I find most people I associate with don’t even care what their group composition is in WvWvW. As I say in every thread I post… it feels like a red/team blue team halo match to me. Everything that made MMORPGSs unique and interesting to me has been removed.

And I agree, what I loved about MMORPGs are not popular with the rest of gamers these days.

And no. I never played WOW.

You weren’t playing high end then. At least not in any of the games I played a lot of.

Even the tanks/healers/CC people were expected to pump out as much damage as they could.

That meant sometimes even running tanks/healers in DPS gear or builds if we could manage it. There’s always been a maximum level of effective defense. What’s the point of lobbing out a 5k heal if they only took 1k damage for example. What’s the point of tanking up to the point that you take almost no damage if you can manage with regens to survive while taking more? Defenses cap out, offense only caps out when you reach the point of it being trivial content and dying in one shot.

The problem here is that that level of required defense just isn’t high, not in the ways that would promote these types of builds. We do have encounters where a lot of active defenses are needed, but that allows people to still go nearly full damage builds maybe sacrificing say a guardian’s max damage to get a longer duration wall of reflection. People don’t accept this as a support oriented decision, but it is, it’s just not far enough for some people. People want that mace guardian with clerics gear to be a thing. And well, tehre is power in it, it’s just that it’s not needed and means a slower run if you’re good enough to not benefit from leaning on it for a smoother run.

Either way, kinda went on a tangent there, but if you did ONLY your role, well that was mediocre play in the other MMOs I played, the good players contributed in any way they could even if it was a small percent of what a DPS could do the healers would still do what they could. It all adds up.

Honestly, I think they meant well when they designed this game to be less reliant on the trinity.

I’ve moaned, myself, about an over-reliance on tanks and healers and about the way some tanks (in particular) can be divas, as some of them end up viewing themselves as indispensable.

However, all we’ve ended up with here instead, in PVE, is with (almost) everyone prioritising DPS (and insisting others do, too) and effectively sharing the support roles, by permastacking and meleeing, whenever possible.

That is even less fun than having to wait in a queue for a tank/healer and no fun, at all, for those who like to tank/heal; or even just to build and/or gear in a slightly tankier/more healerish way.

Not only that, but the game still suffers from the imbalance associated with trinity games such as WoW (as it still has different armour weights and so on) and in many cases, it’s even worse in that way.

Unfortunately, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The trinity isn’t a bad thing. In fact it’s a very viable strategy in older games which is why it became the staple of most games nowadays. Guild Wars 2 could implement it in its own way if it wanted, and I think it’d work great.

What is BAD is, along with the trinity you have characters who only click heal skills on their teammates while standing still in a safe distance while the tank stands still doing his aggro rotation against a boss whose sole focus is to single target attack the tank and the melee/ranged DPS all face the boss’ back from a safe distance, unworried they’ll ever be harmed while they do their static optimal DPS rotations until the boss goes down.

Rotations and stale gameplay is bad. The trinity is not.

I admit missing out on being a dedicated healer. I’ve never enjoyed the frantic pace of dps as much as standing back and supporting the group. I didn’t even like certain Monk healing in WoW (where you healed by doing some dps). But I also admit that I felt bad always seeing people begging in chat for a tank or healer.

I would be happy if we were given the option to gear/trait with a more traditional trinity arrangement. This way groups of players who want to play a dedicated healer/tank could do so. If they made it so that self-healing and defenses of ‘dps builds’ were significantly less, healing for ‘healer builds’ were more expansive and effective (while dps is significantly less), and aggro management and defenses for ‘tank builds’ is powerful while dps and self healing get dropped way down, it could work.

But, any groups who did NOT want to do this could just spec normally and everyone could be dps with healing and defensive abilities like it is now. This way people wouldn’t have to worry about waiting for a ‘tank’ or ‘healer’. They could opt in for the regular GW2 combat and go have fun.

Tigaseye.2047:

Honestly, I think they meant well when they designed this game to be less reliant on the trinity.

I’ve moaned, myself, about an over-reliance on tanks and healers and about the way some tanks (in particular) can be divas, as some of them end up viewing themselves as indispensable.

However, all we’ve ended up with here instead, in PVE, is with (almost) everyone prioritising DPS (and insisting others do, too) and effectively sharing the support roles, by permastacking and meleeing, whenever possible.

That is even less fun than having to wait in a queue for a tank/healer and no fun, at all, for those who like to tank/heal; or even just to build and/or gear in a slightly tankier/more healerish way.

Not only that, but the game still suffers from the imbalance associated with trinity games such as WoW (as it still has different armour weights and so on) and in many cases, it’s even worse in that way.

Unfortunately, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I disagree with you. Playing the game is fundamentally more fun than waiting around to play the game.
Also having one person dictate the course of an encounter is again something I fundamentally disagree with.

My concern is this : if they create hard roles and the content in HoT requires a certain role for the party to be completed we will go back to square one on the whole “waiting around for 1 person to finally engage in content” problem they sought out to solve in the first place.

Secondly – the moment roles are required the class that best fills the role becomes meta and people will demand that class and force each class into that predefined role that is required and that said class does best.

Good luck playing anything but full healing ventari rev if it turns out ventari rev is the strongest healer in the game and the encounters require a healer.

If they make combat roles mandatory for completion then we’re pretty much lost.

The only way a healer would be useful is if it is required for the party to survive. Why would we slow down our DPS to have a healer if we don’t need it?

I’m fine with this though. It’s quick and easy to pug because we don’t need certain professions or roles.