Guild Wars 2

Its like the game trys to be a holy trinity setup but then says they aren’t.

There are 3 things people do in this game.

Full dps = zerker gear and full dps trait lines
Full defensive = bunker…. fancy name for ima tank (mobs even aggro to the highest toughness)
Full Support = buffs/heals/support boons etc etc.

Sorry if im a bit slow but thats the trinity right there. And you are pretty much limited in this game to doing one of those, there is very little room for hybrid builds because of the way the traits are setup. Traits are currently setup so that you basically need to go down 30 points in many trait lines for a skill… and those trait lines themselves are geared towards the holy trinity…. 2 dps lines, 2 tank lines, 2 support lines.

And many viable builds REQUIRE you to take the traits just because they are must haves…..

Just some food for thought

<—- Balanced mesmer. I do damage, control and support as needed through weapons skills and swaps as well as utilities and traits that supplement the various aspects.

I am my own trinity.

VOLKON.1290:

<—- Balanced mesmer. I do damage, control and support as needed through weapons skills and swaps as well as utilities and traits that supplement the various aspects.

I am my own trinity.

So basicly you are nothing just have that time wrap. :P

Sovta.4719:

VOLKON.1290:

<—- Balanced mesmer. I do damage, control and support as needed through weapons skills and swaps as well as utilities and traits that supplement the various aspects.

I am my own trinity.

So basicly[sic] you are nothing just have that time wrap. :P

Warp. Warp. At least spell check your digs.

I wouldn’t say I’m nothing, but that may just be my own ego.

“No holy trinity” doesn’t mean “no role”, it means that each class is somewhat versatile and can play any of these roles, or a combination or roles, in its own way.

ANet announced it very clearly, there’s no mandatory tank/heal/dps classes, but there are damage/support/control roles (and supporting doesn’t necessarily mean healing).

As for mixed build, there are plenty of very valid ones. Try a a AH+EM Guardian with shouts for a great balance of all 3, with some good punches for damage, plenty of buffs/symbols for support, and a hammer for some limited control.

And that’s only one example, each class supports a fair few of these.

Just wanted to say we are all doing control and support, some more, some less, but at the end DPS is the thing. And Guardian. So instead of holy trinity we have Holy Guardian + DPS for “harder” PVE (like there is any) and Holy Warriors + Mesmer for grind.

If you want you can play with holy trinity. The only thing that anet did, was that they made it harder to “heal” others and that people can safe them self.

Namu, trinity generally means that you CAN’T do content without it. Having tanky and supporty characters in a group makes things different, but not having them rarely makes things impossible.

We can spec into various niches, which is nice, but none are absolutely required (maybe they are in fractals, haven’t played past level 5)

You can change your playstyle by mixing gear and traits so it’s not so minmax as many trinity games. You will be a liability to your party in this game if you do 0 damage, as the group support spells are not spammable.

There are hybrids also.

Anyway there is not holy trinity from the game design/description/wannabe. You don’t have classess that purely goes under those deffinitions. However it was obvious that ppl will be able to use builds to make em more one of the trinity and thats why ppl are saying that there is actual trinity here. And thats how ppl are actually thinking (zerk = dps etc etc). There is nothing wrong in that ofc but at same time GW2 differs from other MMOs in this specific area.

i beg to differ.

the trinity is in the players heads following a concept of maximizing one of the above.

take an guardian for example: whats the support line in your opinion? valor? virtues? honor? any of these can be used very offensively.

so its really the players that make the trinity. the trinity is also defined differently and are bound to the class… for example a cleric will never be able to become a warrior

As a Ranger I have:

Been a full power house DPS normal damage
Been a full condition damage DPS
Been a full support, spirit user
Been a full healer, support user
Been a kiter/tank

All within the spectrum of a single dungeon.

Holy Trinity my rear end, I can be whatever I want to be as long as it’s useful. That’s what makes this game fun.

There is no NEED for a tank, healer, dps, but taking on that role can be helpful at times. It’s not pigeon holing you in to a single role you will play every single time.

In my current build, I am support/condition damage/damage mitigation (kiting). And I can change that up depending on which skills I use and how I use them to change the situation.

Namu.5712:

Its like the game trys to be a holy trinity setup but then says they aren’t.

There are 3 things people do in this game.

Full dps = zerker gear and full dps trait lines
Full defensive = bunker…. fancy name for ima tank (mobs even aggro to the highest toughness)
Full Support = buffs/heals/support boons etc etc.

Sorry if im a bit slow but thats the trinity right there. And you are pretty much limited in this game to doing one of those, there is very little room for hybrid builds because of the way the traits are setup. Traits are currently setup so that you basically need to go down 30 points in many trait lines for a skill… and those trait lines themselves are geared towards the holy trinity…. 2 dps lines, 2 tank lines, 2 support lines.

And many viable builds REQUIRE you to take the traits just because they are must haves…..

Just some food for thought

VOLKON.1290:

<—- Balanced mesmer. I do damage, control and support as needed through weapons skills and swaps as well as utilities and traits that supplement the various aspects.

I am my own trinity.

I am also a balanced Mes, I use full zerk gear with a shatter like build but also have support via time warp and null field.

Salacious.7358:

Namu.5712:

Its like the game trys to be a holy trinity setup but then says they aren’t.

There are 3 things people do in this game.

Full dps = zerker gear and full dps trait lines
Full defensive = bunker…. fancy name for ima tank (mobs even aggro to the highest toughness)
Full Support = buffs/heals/support boons etc etc.

Sorry if im a bit slow but thats the trinity right there. And you are pretty much limited in this game to doing one of those, there is very little room for hybrid builds because of the way the traits are setup. Traits are currently setup so that you basically need to go down 30 points in many trait lines for a skill… and those trait lines themselves are geared towards the holy trinity…. 2 dps lines, 2 tank lines, 2 support lines.

And many viable builds REQUIRE you to take the traits just because they are must haves…..

Just some food for thought

VOLKON.1290:

<—- Balanced mesmer. I do damage, control and support as needed through weapons skills and swaps as well as utilities and traits that supplement the various aspects.

I am my own trinity.

I am also a balanced Mes, I use full zerk gear with a shatter like build but also have support via time warp and null field.

I use Null Field as well… also take Arcane Thievery and Feedback. I’ve found a nice synergy in them.

EndlessDreamer.6780:

As a Ranger I have:

Been a full power house DPS normal damage
Been a full condition damage DPS
Been a full support, spirit user
Been a full healer, support user
Been a kiter/tank

All within the spectrum of a single dungeon.

Holy Trinity my rear end, I can be whatever I want to be as long as it’s useful. That’s what makes this game fun.

There is no NEED for a tank, healer, dps, but taking on that role can be helpful at times. It’s not pigeon holing you in to a single role you will play every single time.

In my current build, I am support/condition damage/damage mitigation (kiting). And I can change that up depending on which skills I use and how I use them to change the situation.

And as Guardian i can be better then any of those roles and i’m needed at high lvl fractals, also warrior. So there really isn’t holy trinity, just holy duo + mesmer.

Sovta.4719:

EndlessDreamer.6780:

As a Ranger I have:

Been a full power house DPS normal damage
Been a full condition damage DPS
Been a full support, spirit user
Been a full healer, support user
Been a kiter/tank

All within the spectrum of a single dungeon.

Holy Trinity my rear end, I can be whatever I want to be as long as it’s useful. That’s what makes this game fun.

There is no NEED for a tank, healer, dps, but taking on that role can be helpful at times. It’s not pigeon holing you in to a single role you will play every single time.

In my current build, I am support/condition damage/damage mitigation (kiting). And I can change that up depending on which skills I use and how I use them to change the situation.

And as Guardian i can be better then any of those roles and i’m needed at high lvl fractals, also warrior. So there really isn’t holy trinity, just holy duo + mesmer.

I like playing my class, I like playing my character and I like playing the game. I have yet to be rejected for a dungeon in exchange for a guardian or warrior. I have yet to meet one in WvW or PvP I couldn’t go toe to toe with. And I’m having fun while doing it.

So I fail to really see your point.

Thankfully this game is more about skill than damage output or stats, as proven by the many characters I’ve watched die horrible deaths when encountering something that moved and dodged properly.

I always chuckle when someone justifies the combat system in this game by saying it’s “more about skill than damage output or stats” or something similar. Look, the trinity wouldn’t even work in GW2 because the professions here are kindergarten on training wheels. It’s easy to demonstrate this. Find 2 good warriors, one playing GW2 and one playing WoW. Now, youtube. Watch the skills being employed to execute, shape, and control the fight. There is really no comparison. WoW requires far more skill and response to the situational awareness that good players bring to both games. When you talk about combat roles or the trinity, please just stop with the GW2 is more about skill. It isn’t.

The fact of the matter is that GW2 is a new game that is struggling to find itself in terms of its combat. There are good aspects and bad aspects. The lack of meaningful combat roles is one area that frequently comes up for people.

the ‘holy trinity’ is tank, heal, DPS. Anet’s trinity is support, control, damage. They clearly explained that. All you’re doing is saying what we knew 6 months ago and showing that you’re kitten you misread or misunderstood what they said.

Some people have completely mistaken what Anet meant by “holy trinity”.

Trinity is the mechanic to have one class take all aggro, one do all the healing and others do DPS.
That’s the most basic and obsolete form of team composition right there.

GW2’s simply makes everyone able to take beating, deal damage and heal himself, therefore making everyone into a tank+dps+healer and nullifying that system (this was almost all present in GW1 as well, except we still had healers).
On top of this you can decide to specialize in one particular beanch like dealing damage, controlling, supporting or debuffing – but these are mere specialization they have nothing to do with threat-tanking/full healing etc.

The idea was to do away with every class being locked into doing one role and generally teams relying on tank/healer completely, and they succeeded at this.
I for one wouldn’t play another MMO unless it allowed me such freedom, I’m long tired to be locked in one role.

It’s just excuse for this major class imbalance.

Raine.1394:

I always chuckle when someone justifies the combat system in this game by saying it’s “more about skill than damage output or stats” or something similar. Look, the trinity wouldn’t even work in GW2 because the professions here are kindergarten on training wheels. It’s easy to demonstrate this. Find 2 good warriors, one playing GW2 and one playing WoW. Now, youtube. Watch the skills being employed to execute, shape, and control the fight. There is really no comparison. WoW requires far more skill and response to the situational awareness that good players bring to both games. When you talk about combat roles or the trinity, please just stop with the GW2 is more about skill. It isn’t.

The fact of the matter is that GW2 is a new game that is struggling to find itself in terms of its combat. There are good aspects and bad aspects. The lack of meaningful combat roles is one area that frequently comes up for people.

First of all, no one is really talking about the skill cap in this game. It’s not really what this game is about.

Secondly GW2 is barely a six month old game, comparing player skill levels to a game like WoW that has been building and maturing players for over 8 years and multiple expansions, is a terrible comparison. It’s like saying a five year old isn’t as good at playing basketball as a young adult, of course they aren’t! But if that five year old continues to play basketball when they reach the same age as that young adult they are going to be equally as good if not better.

The game has to evolve and so do the players.

WoW has had years of highly competitive PVE to motivate the best players to min/max their class and find every single trick that will get them ahead, GW2 doesn’t have that yet but I’m sure they will eventually.

On topic, I think the intent was not really to completely kill roles from dungeons but rather to make sure ever class can do either a little bit of all of them or choose one to specialize in. I don’t think we’ll ever completely get away from having support/tank/DPS type of builds but at least their is a lot of variety within classes instead of each only being able to do one, maybe two roles.

Pandabro.8743:

I don’t think we’ll ever completely get away from having support/tank/DPS type of builds but at least their is a lot of variety within classes instead of each only being able to do one, maybe two roles.

Yea, so much variety but only 1, max 2 that really works good.

Pandabro.8743:

Raine.1394:

I always chuckle when someone justifies the combat system in this game by saying it’s “more about skill than damage output or stats” or something similar. Look, the trinity wouldn’t even work in GW2 because the professions here are kindergarten on training wheels. It’s easy to demonstrate this. Find 2 good warriors, one playing GW2 and one playing WoW. Now, youtube. Watch the skills being employed to execute, shape, and control the fight. There is really no comparison. WoW requires far more skill and response to the situational awareness that good players bring to both games. When you talk about combat roles or the trinity, please just stop with the GW2 is more about skill. It isn’t.

The fact of the matter is that GW2 is a new game that is struggling to find itself in terms of its combat. There are good aspects and bad aspects. The lack of meaningful combat roles is one area that frequently comes up for people.

First of all, no one is really talking about the skill cap in this game. It’s not really what this game is about.

Secondly GW2 is barely a six month old game, comparing player skill levels to a game like WoW that has been building and maturing players for over 8 years and multiple expansions, is a terrible comparison. It’s like saying a five year old isn’t as good at playing basketball as a young adult, of course they aren’t! But if that five year old continues to play basketball when they reach the same age as that young adult they are going to be equally as good if not better.

The game has to evolve and so do the players.

WoW has had years of highly competitive PVE to motivate the best players to min/max their class and find every single trick that will get them ahead, GW2 doesn’t have that yet but I’m sure they will eventually.

---

On topic, I think the intent was not really to completely kill roles from dungeons but rather to make sure ever class can do either a little bit of all of them or choose one to specialize in. I don’t think we’ll ever completely get away from having support/tank/DPS type of builds but at least their is a lot of variety within classes instead of each only being able to do one, maybe two roles.

Just for clarification I was not talking about player skill and assumed two players with equal ‘gaming’ skill. I was specifically speaking of the professions/classes and what they required of players in terms of skill. In GW2 they are dead simple by design, they require far less from a player than WoW does. I’m not even saying this is ‘bad’. I’m only responding to the idea that GW2 offers or requires a more skill-based play. It doesn’t. The generic factors of positioning, situational awareness, environment, terrain, etc. are common for all games. GW2 doesn’t add anything more to combat that requires “more” skill. In fact, because of profession design, it requires less.

People equating the generic combat in WoW make me giggle. Once I mastered the rotations on my pally tank or hunter I could tank or dps with the best of them. Ah, the good ol’ pally 9-6-9 rotation…

No thanks. I prefer combat that makes me know my skills as well as their secondary and often tertiary effects and allows me to consider using them situationally as opposed to what some spreadsheet has pre-determined I should be doing.

VOLKON.1290:

People equating the generic combat in WoW make me giggle. Once I mastered the rotations on my pally tank or hunter I could tank or dps with the best of them. Ah, the good ol’ pally 9-6-9 rotation…

No thanks. I prefer combat that makes me know my skills as well as their secondary and often tertiary effects and allows me to consider using them situationally as opposed to what some spreadsheet has pre-determined I should be doing.

Agreed. Once you learned a rotation, DPS, Healing or Tanking were pretty much cake with a little bit mixed in in case of a rogue spike of damage.

EndlessDreamer.6780:

VOLKON.1290:

People equating the generic combat in WoW make me giggle. Once I mastered the rotations on my pally tank or hunter I could tank or dps with the best of them. Ah, the good ol’ pally 9-6-9 rotation…

No thanks. I prefer combat that makes me know my skills as well as their secondary and often tertiary effects and allows me to consider using them situationally as opposed to what some spreadsheet has pre-determined I should be doing.

Agreed. Once you learned a rotation, DPS, Healing or Tanking were pretty much cake with a little bit mixed in in case of a rogue spike of damage.

That’s precisely why I suggested watching a video of it originally. Skilled players don’t simply execute a ‘rotation’. And, when most people talk about rotations they are thinking old school rotation that you executed rote. In current gaming rotations are priority-based, situational, and managed. The ‘rotation’ dismissal only works on those unfamiliar with gaming. It’s kind of like saying that GW2 requires more skill. An experienced gamer knows the statement is absurd.

And, given a rotation of some kind, there are situational factors that take precedence over ‘rotation’ and call for a specific skill to counter specific situations. This is especially where you see skilled play rewarded and again why I suggested you actually observe the combat. There is no comparison really. GW2, again, is kindergarten on training wheels compared to WoW.

Raine.1394:

EndlessDreamer.6780:

VOLKON.1290:

People equating the generic combat in WoW make me giggle. Once I mastered the rotations on my pally tank or hunter I could tank or dps with the best of them. Ah, the good ol’ pally 9-6-9 rotation…

No thanks. I prefer combat that makes me know my skills as well as their secondary and often tertiary effects and allows me to consider using them situationally as opposed to what some spreadsheet has pre-determined I should be doing.

Agreed. Once you learned a rotation, DPS, Healing or Tanking were pretty much cake with a little bit mixed in in case of a rogue spike of damage.

That’s precisely why I suggested watching a video of it originally. Skilled players don’t simply execute a ‘rotation’. And, when most people talk about rotations they are thinking old school rotation that you executed rote. In current gaming rotations are priority-based, situational, and managed. The ‘rotation’ dismissal only works on those unfamiliar with gaming. It’s kind of like saying that GW2 requires more skill. An experienced gamer knows the statement is absurd.

And, given a rotation of some kind, there are situational factors that take precedence over ‘rotation’ and call for a specific skill to counter specific situations. This is especially where you see skilled play rewarded and again why I suggested you actually observe the combat. There is no comparison really. GW2, again, is kindergarten on training wheels compared to WoW.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make before, that your comparison based on skill is flawed because GW2 hasn’t had the time to develop players with such skill. It’s like trying to compare chess to a modern turn based strategy game. Because chess has been around forever it’s evolved it’s own complexity and skill based on the players joint adaption to each other’s tactics and it’s probably still more skill based than any modern turn based strategy game because of it.

GW2 players will evolve such complexity over time. Even with seeming simple design complexity and competition can still arise.

Regardless this discussion of more/less skill is counter productive because there is no way to truly measure skill. Trying to say one game takes more skill than another and it’ll always be that way is very short sighted, as it’s nearly impossible to say so beyond personal opinion.

Skill is in the eye of the beholder, and the eye is heavily influenced by emotional factors.

Whoa whoa, Don’t attack me I’m not saying the game needs a trinity setup I’m saying, it pulls you into those 3 area’s and I think its rather bland…. like no thought was put into going beyond the trinity…. sure you dont need it to do content… but it is still there and is a overriding force for most professions and viable builds…. im not denying that there isn’t balanced builds.

Cool your jets people jesus.

Sadly those two words are like the proverbial red cloth to a bull.

Namu.5712:

Its like the game trys to be a holy trinity setup but then says they aren’t.

There are 3 things people do in this game.

Full dps = zerker gear and full dps trait lines
Full defensive = bunker…. fancy name for ima tank (mobs even aggro to the highest toughness)
Full Support = buffs/heals/support boons etc etc.

Sorry if im a bit slow but thats the trinity right there. And you are pretty much limited in this game to doing one of those, there is very little room for hybrid builds because of the way the traits are setup. Traits are currently setup so that you basically need to go down 30 points in many trait lines for a skill… and those trait lines themselves are geared towards the holy trinity…. 2 dps lines, 2 tank lines, 2 support lines.

And many viable builds REQUIRE you to take the traits just because they are must haves…..

Just some food for thought

You obviously don’t really understand the trinity system.. In GW2 you can semi set your toon up to do any of the dps tanky or healing but not in a full spec, they will not and cannot generate enough threat to keep aggro and there is not any direct healing only indirect; therefore it is not a trinity … You must rememeber…

Dps does only that dps nothing more… high damage output…

Tank does only that…generates threat to keep aggro of the mobs.. They tend to not do a lot of damage(Dps job) and has to depend on direct healing from the healers to heal them..

Healers… if in healing spec… does only that… heal

So there is no trinity in GW2.

Eladriel.7295:

Namu.5712:

Its like the game trys to be a holy trinity setup but then says they aren’t.

There are 3 things people do in this game.

Full dps = zerker gear and full dps trait lines
Full defensive = bunker…. fancy name for ima tank (mobs even aggro to the highest toughness)
Full Support = buffs/heals/support boons etc etc.

Sorry if im a bit slow but thats the trinity right there. And you are pretty much limited in this game to doing one of those, there is very little room for hybrid builds because of the way the traits are setup. Traits are currently setup so that you basically need to go down 30 points in many trait lines for a skill… and those trait lines themselves are geared towards the holy trinity…. 2 dps lines, 2 tank lines, 2 support lines.

And many viable builds REQUIRE you to take the traits just because they are must haves…..

Just some food for thought

You obviously don’t really understand the trinity system.. In GW2 you can semi set your toon up to do any of the dps tanky or healing but not in a full spec, they will not and cannot generate enough threat to keep aggro and there is not any direct healing only indirect; therefore it is not a trinity … You must rememeber…

Dps does only that dps nothing more… high damage output…

Tank does only that…generates threat to keep aggro of the mobs.. They tend to not do a lot of damage(Dps job) and has to depend on direct healing from the healers to heal them..

Healers… if in healing spec… does only that… heal

So there is no trinity in GW2.

But thats not true.

Its been proven that the higher toughness the higher threat you have…. ever seen a tanky necro grab a champ or boss and it not budge from them? Same with a guard or warrior sporting high armor high toughness…. the game is setup to target them first on the threat table. So if its not meant to be like that why does it behave like that.

Then say the low toughness low armor glass cannons are just that…. DPS.

While they nerfed healing I cant really say anything about that as every class can sustain themselves for the most part.

What I was talking about was the fact that the trees are setup like a there was a trinity…. when there is not and I find that to be rather limiting in choices….. and this has been admitted by Anet.

Namu.5712:

While they nerfed healing I cant really say anything about that as every class can sustain themselves for the most part.

Not my personal experience…

Namu.5712:

But thats not true.

Its been proven that the higher toughness the higher threat you have…. ever seen a tanky necro grab a champ or boss and it not budge from them? Same with a guard or warrior sporting high armor high toughness…. the game is setup to target them first on the threat table. So if its not meant to be like that why does it behave like that.

Then say the low toughness low armor glass cannons are just that…. DPS.

While they nerfed healing I cant really say anything about that as every class can sustain themselves for the most part.

What I was talking about was the fact that the trees are setup like a there was a trinity…. when there is not and I find that to be rather limiting in choices….. and this has been admitted by Anet.

Ok there are some flaws to your thought process.

The “hate” mechanic that is used here in GW2, does often prioritize the one with the most toughness, but quite as often it does not. Many things can generate “hate.”

Conditions, Boon removal, many of the forms of control (chill, cripple, etc.), and especially healing can all generate “hate.”

How often have you tried to pick up your fallen ally, and BAM the boss wants no one but you, and possibly anyone you’ve ever loved? It happens quite a bit from my point of view.

It is impossible to have a true Tank, since a Tank’s primary role is to obtain and manage threat. There is no threat in this game, only “hate” and it functions quite differently. It changes from mob to mob, and sometimes I find it to be a bit of a gamble.

In my eyes, a true GW2 “Tank” is a character that not only builds for survivability, but also functions as the Control role. Controlling where your enemies go, and what they do, and allowing the more damage-oriented players on your team melt them down.

As to your comment on the Trait lines, maybe you should play around with them a bit. You will discover that there are options in every tree that allow you to Control, Damage, or Support.

Any class, with any build, can do anything if played right. More importantly, play to your style. You’ll find that by gearing a character towards the way you want to play, you manage to perform any or all of these roles, and on your terms.

Happy hunting, and I hope you’ll realize that there is no “holy trinity” in GW2, just players who pigeon-hole themselves.

Blackhat.4016:

Holy trinity =

GS warrior for DPS/burst
Guardian as the tank/support
Mesmer (aka walking Time Warp) for support

Anything besides that is just a nice addition to the group (sadly). Good thing is this is only PvE.

That’s not remotely true.
Necros (esp after buff) are extremely good for 25 vulnerability stacking on AoE basis, proper Engi heals a lot while stacking tons of debuffs… it’s just that people so far only learned Warrior/Guard/Mes metas in PvE, but there is much better around.

There is no trinity just people with no imagination nor knowledge of other setups than War/Mes/Guard

I think there are other good builds too (I prefer my staff ele for support for example) but when it comes to damage and survivability I haven’t seen anything coming close to the curent meta.

Nothing comes close to a GS warriors 100b damage in PvE.

Some professions come close to the tankiness/support a guardian offers but some skills are just to useful in PvE (especially the wards and shield skills).

Nobody else gives quickness to the whole group and can buff the group at the same time.

I hope Anet changes that in the future so all professions have the chance to be part of the meta.

The agro system in gw2 is quite a bit more complex than just toughness, you have to learn which mobs have which preferences, I like the depth.

Namu.5712:

Its like the game trys to be a holy trinity setup but then says they aren’t.

There are 3 things people do in this game.

Full dps = zerker gear and full dps trait lines
Full defensive = bunker…. fancy name for ima tank (mobs even aggro to the highest toughness)
Full Support = buffs/heals/support boons etc etc.

Sorry if im a bit slow but thats the trinity right there. And you are pretty much limited in this game to doing one of those, there is very little room for hybrid builds because of the way the traits are setup. Traits are currently setup so that you basically need to go down 30 points in many trait lines for a skill… and those trait lines themselves are geared towards the holy trinity…. 2 dps lines, 2 tank lines, 2 support lines.

And many viable builds REQUIRE you to take the traits just because they are must haves…..

Just some food for thought

OP I AM THE TRINITY
Do it all and fill the need in any party

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD