Guild Wars 2

Gandara EU. At peak times (which really means 4pm – midnight, and all weekend) I get unplayable lag (30s+) whenever a group of enemies comes within targeting range in WvW. It can be small groups (20 or so) whereas 3-4 months ago I’d only get the usual 2s or so skill lag – and that only when it was a 60vs60 zerg fight. Basically described in my tech support thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/tech/Unplayable-skill-lag-in-WvW/first#post3222491

I can’t say exactly when this problem (whatever is causing it) started because I haven’t played the game much in the past 2 months or so due to work, but it’s certainly much much worse than it ever was previously (even the Abbadon’s Mouth gigazerg never gave me as much lag as I now get from a 20-man group).

Gandara EU. Anytime I manage to get into WvW (at any time), if i go near anyone else (either on my team or any of the other two) WvW just seems to die. Trying to get the achievements,but how can I if WvW won’t play at all?

Until now since the update I had no skill lag at all in wvw,pvp pve. so I would say good job done. Before the game was also playable even in big zergs however with some (small to larger:)) skill delays . Today I did a fractal with 4. Two of us had +/- infinite skill lag (never had this before in a fractal or any other dungeon). No framerate loss, but no keys responded from my site I saw all what the rest was doing and they saw me running into a wall. We were connected through ts, the lag ( unable to do anything) occurred at the same time with both of us while the other two had no problem it also came in periods but made the game unplayable. It seems rather strange now that in a small instance 2 out of 4 get an extreme server delay, while in big zergs it doesn’t occur for us.

There was something really bad happening on Gandara yesterday. I ended up in a massive skill/chat lag as soon as invasion started in Sparkfly (where i was for reasons unrelated). Massive, as in “i haven’t seen anything like that since that one time when 3 huge blobs ended up meeting head-on in Stonemist Lord room and everything just froze”. I certainly haven’t seen anything like that during any previous invasions. What’s more interesting is that a friend of mine, who was in a different zone, got chat-lagged as well at about the same time.

I haven’t been able to play for near a fortnight now, the skill-lag is so bad – up to 5 minutes before a skill fires – at which point I normally get a “disconnected” error.

It’s nice of the devs to post what they are doing to the game, but from months back we all worked out that the packetloss/delay issue seemed to come from servers just before the NCSoft servers – Edge3 or similar company name. Not a game optimisation issue, but an issue with one companys’ servers en route.

The posts above are right, this lag/delay does come in waves, sometimes it’s worse than others. But noticeably, the minute other characters come into range, that starts the lag/delay, which quickly ramps up to the usual 3-5minutes.

Does anybody experience random situations where your character just freezes in place and stands up straight in the middle of skills or running? The only way to get out of it is to move the camera or press the any movement key again. It’s very weird but definitely frustrating. It feels like I’m being incapacitated. It is that lag or some other type of bug?

I’ve started experiencing lag in PvE, and that has never happened to me before. The lag is very annoying, because it causes all the action to freeze for several seconds (5-10 seconds), before the client is updated again. If I’m in a dungeon, it often results in a downed or killed character, because I have no control over my character and I can’t see what’s going in.

This lag issue started a few weeks ago. Before, I only experienced lag when close to big zergs in WvW. I’m not sure if this is caused by software/hardware changes on the server and/or perhaps server overloads due to an increasing number of players.

I forgot to mention that I’m playing on the Gandara server.

For the past few weeks the lag has been terrible on the weekends. I can’t play wvw, I can’t solo roam pve, I can’t even play spvp because of the lag. Seriously, I went to the hall of monuments just to test and I still had tremendous skill lag. This is getting ridiculous.

Sbi server

So after applauding the vastly improved situation in WvW I have to admit that things have gotten marginally worse in PvE. I’ll hit a 30 second “nothing happens lag spike” every hour or so (definitely GW2 as TS and everything else continues to behave).

It’s still far better than what it used to be.

Hi Bill,

Your team did some fantastic work in reducing the WvW skill lag – it has been a major improvement during the large Zerg battles. There is however one crazy thing that occurs for some players in a map (infrequent) and rare (PvE – low lv areas, high lvl areas and WvW).

The skills refuse to fire at all <they do not grey out or activate> (like we used to get in large WvW but this is seen in PvE now also) – seems once the client is restarted everything will work absolutely fine. Often porting to a waypoint or dying is enough to reset everything and the skills continue to work.

The occasional instances that this has occurred I collected a wireshark network captures and everything seemed normal enough (not a high number of packet transmissions or retransmissions – a few were present). No forced client disconnection occurs and would be able to run around a map for long periods of time without skills firing off still (>10 mins).

All network traces & ping plotter graphs look normal (no major packet loss or delays also confirmed in the wireshark traces). I’m starting to think this is some firm of client side bug (it’s rare when it occurs) or a partial desync with the client and server.

I know that it is really difficult to optimise and find all these bugs – hopefully this one once fixed will really make a big difference

Please keep up the great work !

Many Thanks

i remember the reason i first went to EU server side unofficial RP Piken Square server, it wasn’t just the Roleplay, it was to escape the tremendous lag i got, untill finally realizing for the first 4months of the game i hadn’t turned down my graphics “enough” cause down all the way makes it barely lag playing from a U.S. area. but auto-detect works fine too, anyhow this is what i survived through somehow, 1 day back on [usa] servers :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qk90BRyjhs&list=PL9csOb26hMWkAg-K6DOcmHcUTItTtR8Wf

TPMN.1483:

Hi Bill,

Your team did some fantastic work in reducing the WvW skill lag – it has been a major improvement during the large Zerg battles. There is however one crazy thing that occurs for some players in a map (infrequent) and rare (PvE – low lv areas, high lvl areas and WvW).

The skills refuse to fire at all <they do not grey out or activate> (like we used to get in large WvW but this is seen in PvE now also) – seems once the client is restarted everything will work absolutely fine. Often porting to a waypoint or dying is enough to reset everything and the skills continue to work.

The occasional instances that this has occurred I collected a wireshark network captures and everything seemed normal enough (not a high number of packet transmissions or retransmissions – a few were present). No forced client disconnection occurs and would be able to run around a map for long periods of time without skills firing off still (>10 mins).

All network traces & ping plotter graphs look normal (no major packet loss or delays also confirmed in the wireshark traces). I’m starting to think this is some firm of client side bug (it’s rare when it occurs) or a partial desync with the client and server.

I know that it is really difficult to optimise and find all these bugs – hopefully this one once fixed will really make a big difference

Please keep up the great work !

Many Thanks

This is like a network protocol hang, where the client, and the server’s belief in some aspect of the client’s state, are inconsistent in a way that prevents further action by the client.

Since this change went in I have been in a dungeon, in the state where I can use abilities but movement keys are ignored, more frequently. (the one which requires using “/dance” to recover).

or the one which prevents weapon swap from the keyboard (but not with the mouse on the hero panel)

or others, but I don’t want to confuse this discussion with cases which could be dismissed as client OS or driver defects or misconfiguration. These are real, clear, protocol hangs in GW2.

I believe the server optimization has exacerbated the pre existing race conditions in the server client interface…which do need to be looked at. This hints that the hangs are race conditions depending on the rate at which the server sends “things” to the client. Perhaps there’s an ordering constraint that command A from the server must be executed by the client before command B; the server sends them in the correct order; there is no interlock (no acknowledgement by the client that it has completed the execution of A); and even though A and B start in the same work queue in the client they are in fact executed by different threads so may in fact be executed in any order if B arrives at the client before A is complete. This speculation/illustration points out that correct engineering of protocols must consider every corner case, every possible packet drop, every possible out of order receipt, every possible reinitialization of state at one end…not just the “normal” cases a programmer thinks of first.

Recognizing the reality that any information will help people trying to cheat, and that any new directive to the server to reset state could be used in a denial of service attack or in an attempt to cheat, I think it’s time to have

1. a command to capture client state when a hang has occurred, to submit in bug reports

2. a command to capture server state for a client when a hang has occurred, for direct correlation with the hung client state, ideally executed as part of (1) but implemented in a way that can’t possibly hang (1)

3. a command to re sync all aspects of client and server state. Probably need to get to this off the esc menu and not as a keystroke, although to be honest, in heavy combat I’d rather be able to do this in a tenth of a second alive than in several seconds dead.

edit: another way to approach this is for the client to assert its state (which would have to be collected from various weapon, movement, etc states in the client) and the server to validate that state. An “I’m hung in some way” button. My concern here is that very likely GW2 got here by having multiple pieces of state scattered in server and client, and the programmer hours to pull them together for this tool (or the CPU cycles to handle this command) will be unaffordable.

i waited a couple of weeks. i was only 2 skill lags since that and that wasnt too serious. gj guys! i hope the skill balance team will do as goog job as you!

Has this happen last night, the first time I have ever done Tequatl.
Was fine and then towards the end of the fight (just before he died), I had skill lag where my skills would not go off and then a client crash and of course when I got back on there was no chest/rewards to collect/given.
Very disappointing.

As expected, to me at least, the lag has gotten worse since the latest patch. This is a different type of lag, however. It happens when mostly doing the last part of the Nightmare Within stuff, the solo instancing in the tower with Marjory and Kasmeer. It’s out to maybe 1sec lag and is happening random, but often.

I’m still not sure what’s brought this on, but it’s not the typical event meta / zerg lag, it’s more like the lag we used to get in GW1, ie. it freezes for a bit then releases and catches up. Kind of like rubberbanding lag, but mobility is unaffected, just the skills.

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

As expected, to me at least, the lag has gotten worse since the latest patch. This is a different type of lag, however. It happens when mostly doing the last part of the Nightmare Within stuff, the solo instancing in the tower with Marjory and Kasmeer. It’s out to maybe 1sec lag and is happening random, but often.

I’m still not sure what’s brought this on, but it’s not the typical event meta / zerg lag, it’s more like the lag we used to get in GW1, ie. it freezes for a bit then releases and catches up. Kind of like rubberbanding lag, but mobility is unaffected, just the skills.

I have not witness such lag. Lag has been fine lately.

I am seeing more threads appearing describing the skill lag that we are experiencing.

This seems to affect sPvP, PvE and WvW-
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/at-the-heat-of-battle-I-can-not-attack/first#post3389865

TPMN.1483:

I am seeing more threads appearing describing the skill lag that we are experiencing.

This seems to affect sPvP, PvE and WvW-
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/at-the-heat-of-battle-I-can-not-attack/first#post3389865

That seems to be a bug when picking up/interacting with stuff. Like siege. I’ve been noticing it a lot lately too.

I’ve definitely noticed an increase in skill lag since the last patch.

Appreciate the effort and work that the teams behind this are contributing. Just pointing that, despite running checks on my internet as well as computer, I am convinced that the skill-lag that I still get isn’t from my end as my speed gets up to as high as 60 MBPS even up to this point of time. Hoping for a solution to this ASAP because the skill lag has been getting worse lately and it’s also constant. Thank you in advance.

My lag in WvW since the xmas patch has gotten insane.. 4 to 5 second delays on utilities and 1-2 seconds on weapon skills. I have always run on max settings in the past with only a minor (<1/8 second in heavy zerg vs zerg) delay on most skills before this patch happened. BTW could you do ANYTHING about the 15 second loading times in LA (I’m on an SSD too). I realize that having a “pretty” LA for Xmas is all nice and all, but that much of a delay, I may as well not even bother going there.

I don’t think they care any more. I haven’t been able to play due to lag since the Christmas update.

I’d like to appreciate the effort your team is putting in, if you were actually doing what you say, Since this post the lag of everything, not just skill lag has gotten worse, Especially for those outside of America.

I used to think it was just the large population on release that was causing issues, Now I’m drawn between your net code is really bad or the population never decreased from launch.

Either way your servers cannot handle the current amount of people playing so either upgrade them or open servers around the world and spread the load around, From reading through the tech support forums It’s pretty clear that the games connection is being forced through some pretty bad ISP’s so moving the physical location of some of the servers should fix that (Oceanic server wink wink)

An Oceanic server would work wonders, and make those that are most remote in the world not have to go through 24-ish gateways before reaching Anet’s servers, and then having the signal sent back again.

Having to go through 7 gateways for a 45ms ping before it leaves the country is bad enough. Considering most US game traffic never really experiences >150ms ping from anywhere in the country (unless it’s a mega event with a heap of people in which case everyone connected will suffer), I think you guys are pretty well done by. Meanwhile Oceanics have to deal with 300-400ms pings on a good day. It’s a case of adapt to the lag or don’t play.

Going to add my support here for an Oceanic server. Please! I have a pretty high end gaming PC but in order to play GW2 I now have to set all my settings to “maximize performance” just to get semi-decent load times, response times, and game play ability. When I do that, my FPS goes to 80 – 90 which is a massive improvement on the 10 – 20 I normally get. We have some amazing data centres here in Australia. I’m sure Singapore and Malaysia also have some fantastic ones too. Just saying

The other issue I notice since the last patch is the skill death. What I mean by that is, my skills just stop working. The only way to fix that seems to be to log out and back in or zone out and zone back in.

Dunno what server you lot on, but on gandara the skill lag sucks big time, anytime there is a battle 100 players or more the whole area lags out, we are unable to use any skills apart from auto atk. In Eternal – Battle in SM? well good luck trying to fight there!, the whole surrounding area lags out Badd! Unable to use any skill other then one for 10+ seconds?!
Sometimes The server seems to hasten up after one of these battles maybe to try to compensate for the data loss? and skills are able to be activated faster then usual.
it sounds weird i know but thats the only way to explain it. Server haste we call it. this shouldnt happen at all!
its Very noticeable with my melee characters very annoying sometimes too
these problems havent ever been fixed and I should know Ive been playing since day one.

Hi,

Just would like to report my skill lag issue which just started on 8th Jan 2014, 7pm onwards GMT+8 and continued until today Jan 9th. The 2s – 15seconds skill lag / queue is so bad to a point I can see all my skills flashings.

Which includes

1. General pve maps like Kessex Hill, where I am going on my gathering run far away from the champion zergs.

2. During dungeon in AC. P1, and P3.

3. And recently on Jan-9th after server reset, we on a world boss/temple event chain, my skill lag is like 2s to 15 seconds ! This includes Golem, Fire Shaman, The Eye (Straits of devastation), Melandru and Dwayna

Of all these events, Melandru/Dwayna gave me problem even in interacting with the chest when temple captured.

I would appreciate Arena to stop giving out free licenses as these are only bots and gold-sellers. In my first experience, since last year, I have gotten two gold-sellers whisper in the last two days. i have reported in-game on these messages/account.

The bots are still around near Temple of Lyssa and Cursed Shore which i have added them into my blocked list and will report them daily/weekly.

There are also bots at the Frostgorge champ farming chain.

Thank you.

Server: Blackgate (NA)

One of the biggest lags I have noticed is the BLTP and my inventory. Those seem to really choke. I can see stone mist battles getting choppy, pretty hard to not buffer input from 100 people, but when my inventory blanks out or the mini map is blocks for 15 seconds and I am in Gendarren Fields, there’s an issue. I would agree that the Winter’s Day patch is where it got pretty bad.

I got the lag again so bad to day, to a point of Denial Of Services Attack DDoS during Lyssa (Blackgate) at 1 hour ago.

My skill lag was over 20seconds, but I can still see my party chat and type and after a few minutes of frustration with the game DDoS-ing itself, I got logged out and when I log back in the event is over.

PLEASE PLEASE Remedy this quick as it is the only way I can get my dragoniteore. Arena needs to give other means of attaining dragonite ore in dungeons. Which I do enjoy as it does not have the silly lag.

I did not buy this game or even invest time in it for frustration with bad fps and get kicked out after I have spent time participating it it.

It has come to a point where players all just wanna over load the event to a point of in-efficiency for majority’s sake so he/she can get better loot due to the scaling up of mobs when more people are participating.

If arena wants this approach, you clearly have to be responsible in providing us a message to warn us this is the limit. Or SCALE UP YOUR BANDWIDTH AND OPTIMISE YOUR CODE. Instead of wasting time on adding more living story to it. Which have of it most people do not enjoy anyway.

I hope this is as objective and constructive as it can be as I am a complaining and concerned player of the Quality of This Game.

GET RID OF THE BOTS at Cursed Shore / Malchor’s Leap. Stop giving out free accounts if Arena is not scaling up servers to handle the load. You only kitten off existing players that has been with Arena since early on.

Regards
Disappointed Player.

I just tried Lyssa again, when the crowd is less now. I manage to get the daily temple chest, and event chest.

But I can’t see to move and when I move about 600-900 distance away, I get blink back to my original before I moved, and my skills that I pressed earlier during the event all just came in.

Some more feedback. I have started getting random DCs (as well as the others I hang out with on TS/Mumble). I have also started to see the movement issues that UmbraVictor described.

The overall situation in WvW continues to be far better than it used to be; it’s just slightly worse than it was recently.

Monday Jan 13 – 7 PM ish server time, dungeon party in CM path 3 at final boss – players from multiple servers – we were all in mumble so could chat outside the game client. I am based on Fort Aspenwwood. Some were from Tarnished Coast.
All players DC’ed at the same time. I was kicked to character selection screen, was able to get right back on, and reopened the same CM instance (I had originally opened it). After a while the various other players were able to relog, some took far longer to get back online than others though. We returned to the final boss fight.

During the run back there was a great deal of skill lag and rubber banding for all party members.

We were able to eventually finish the path even with the lag. And we were given the reward and final cut scene. In other words everything worked, but just very laggy. The only thing that wasn’t laggy was the chat window. Even after exiting the instance open world lag was so bad we decided to log out and try more paths at a later time, the game was basically unplayable for timed dungeon runs.

This world sync problem happened earlier too in AC path 2. I was running to the final boss with the party, we are all in the same room out of battle, and then I took damage and died for no apparent reason. The party could see me, and I could see them, but they could not res me. After about 15 seconds I rubber banded back outside the room and down a hall and set of stairs to a mob of gravelings. Which is apparently where I was all along. Although my party could see me with them, and I could see them, I was not actually there. I can understand client de-sync, but why game world events like other player locations and movement stayed in sync, but not my actual location in the game world, seems very strange.

I hope these descriptions help. Of late I have been seeing various degrees of lag and DC’s in specific dungeons. COE, HOTW AC and CM – while TA SE COF seem fine.

I have a simple question. Was there a point in time that you ANet noticed an unusual spike in skill lag issues. For me, and those I have talked to, it was about a week ago. It was sudden and brutal. Any working theories on what change caused the issue?

BillFreist.1527:

Quick update:

Happy new year everyone! Now that we’re back from holiday vacations, we’ve got more improvements that’ll be rolling out soon. A handful of client improvements will also be making their way (soon hopefully), that should see a drastic memory usage drop and client frame-rate improvements, especially for lower-end hardware.

I’ll make sure to update once I have a better idea of what release you can start seeing these changes trickle in.

-Bill

That’s awesome news! Thank you guys, and have a happy new year too.

That said, I believe where most of us get stuck regarding performance is CPU usage. Any specific changes to counter this as well? What about GPU usage?

I’m really looking forward to see these changes go live. Keep up the good work!

That’s awesome. Thanks for the update Bill!

Woohoo! No more 1fps for Lyssa’s cannon calibration event? Yay!

What about high-end hardware?

The game is still very much CPU bound and doesn’t seem to fully utilize all the cores. I also recently upgraded my GPU from GTX 580 to GTX 780 and it didn’t even matter one bit.

i hope i will no longer have 10-20FPS while playing with 2+ mesmers in dungeon (too many clones) :P

So the next time people are griping about things never getting fixed around here, we can at least say attention was being placed somewhere necessary and needed. And probably thoroughly unnoticed by any. ;D

Good job guys. I still appreciate it all the same

BillFreist.1527:

Quick update:

A handful of client improvements will also be making their way (soon hopefully), that should see a drastic memory usage drop and client frame-rate improvements, especially for lower-end hardware.
-Bill

Well …honestly I lost all my hopes for better optimization a while ago. Could you be more specific – what we should and should not expect? Just to not get our hopes up

Dear Arena,

As of last week, just after 2014 new year. I noticed the skill lag seems to be worse, in terms of play experience. I play an Ele Sceptor/Dagger. This has not really happened in PvE to me before, nothing has been changed on my network or system just updated driver patches with 10mb Fibre with QoS activated for best priority to GW2 ports and ip on Asus RT-N66U B1.

The Problems so far, I do participate or start World Boss/Temple Event (Blackgate), 1-2 hours after server reset:

World Boss/Temple, problem persistent even with everything turned to best performance.

1. My skill can be queued to over 20 seconds or more.
2. Every time lately when the zergs arrive, they might even lag me out till I disconnect and end up in Overflow, even I started the temple event on a very small group of 5-10 people. This has never happened before. Don’t you impose a first come first serve priority on your server/client connectivity ?

Dungeons

1. I see more rubber-banding of my party members
2. More noticeable skill lags and sometimes will not trigger. (not as bad as World Boss / Temple Events)

i would like to suggest to allow Dragonite Ore to be attainable in a different manner of the same quantity (30 for temples) other than LARGE group events. This is one of the main reason why I do not enjoy WvW anymore since more players load the servers causing lag spikes/inconsistency.

Most often in the past, 10-20 FPS on large events is acceptable, I don’t encounter any frustrating skill lags/queue.

Enclosed here in is the Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit resmon screen capture. Would it be normal for the bottom ip not to show any latency ms ?

BillFreist.1527:

Quick update:

Happy new year everyone! Now that we’re back from holiday vacations, we’ve got more improvements that’ll be rolling out soon. A handful of client improvements will also be making their way (soon hopefully), that should see a drastic memory usage drop and client frame-rate improvements, especially for lower-end hardware.

I’ll make sure to update once I have a better idea of what release you can start seeing these changes trickle in.

-Bill

Thank you. I have many friends who were fans of the first game who’s systems are just out of reach of playable. Many of the casual players in your target market have a “casual” gaming computer budget that your game just doesn’t get along with. Every step towards bringing that around is a good one. Maybe I can start recommending it soon to my friends with modest machines if everything pans out.

UmbraVictor.9842:

Dear Arena,
~snip~

1. I see more rubber-banding of my party members
2. More noticeable skill lags and sometimes will not trigger. (not as bad as World Boss / Temple Events)
   ~snip~

With reference to this and your attachment. Welcome to Australia on a good day. The latency is more the problem, but the rubber-banding hasn’t been an issue since GW1, until this week.

Oh, can’t wait to experience a large zerg fight without dropping below 30 FPS on an expensive PC, which can touch 13 FPS in WvW & @ Maw, meanwhile the average is ~22 FPS in these events.

The worst part is when you can’t even use any of your skills, just moving. Quite unfair in EB…

Anyway, for reducing load times & lagg in LA, our beloved developers need to stop making effect-spammed armors that just got overdesigned & need to remap the city to spread people, not to concentrate them to one core place where they spamm anything they can…

Only had an issue with skill lag a few times before, and they were very short instances that came and went. Yesterday the game was unplayable for me.
Unpopulated maps would leave me with skill lag of a minute+. I could move around the map fine, but the skills would just keep flashing.
Tried doing numerous world boss events and wouldn’t get credit because the boss would die before a single attack activated. Got kicked back to character selection screen about 6x during the day before I gave up.
A quick browsing of the forums shows this is a recent problem for a lot of players. I have never had this issue before, wondering what caused such a drastic change. Something to acknowledged the sudden change would be appreciated.

This. ..above. Never had any real issues until today when even empty maps are just laughably un-playable.= due to skill lag. FPS seems stable for me at around 25-35, but it’s the skills that laaaaag so hard. Please fix please.

I find it quite interesting to read all about unplayable and skill-lag.
I’m on Elona Reach, and I don’t experience skill lag at all, well, except for like 100ms, but that’s normal for an online game.

Also regarding the FPS-drops, just reduce your graphics settings. I have V-Synced-60fps in WvWvW fights by going Performance instead of Quality.
If your game is lagging in terms of FPS, you WILL experience “lag” in terms of networking due to CPU overload because the game is CPU-limited (like all MMORGPs).

Additionally make sure your DSL line is free of downloads and especially uploads that consume the whole bandwith. GW2 uses mostly UDP which depends on that uplink bandwith. Without, the packets get lost and so does your acitvated skill.

To sum it up: play your WvWvW fights in performance (I switch between Quality and Performance daily) to have 60fps+ and don’t bottleneck your CPU by forcing that character count etc.

I appreciate the input from Crudelis, but I have to say it doesn’t really apply in this situation. I’ve been playing GW2 since February and NEVER encountered anything like this before.
I don’t WvW, so that’s not an issue. And I’ve never had a problem with world bosses before.
Also, I didn’t change anything in my settings, or on my computer to have it go from playing perfectly Saturday, and then not being playable at all Sunday. There has to be more to it than that I’m afraid.