Guild Wars 2

There are lots of complaints/observations that there is an end-game “grind” in GW2.

How could you possibly design an MMO that wasn’t to a certain extent “grindy”?

This game offers a whole ton of stuff to do and ways to enjoy end-game, none of which are mandatory. You can pick and choose what you want to do.

I’m not sure that there is ANY way to make an MMO (sandbox or theme park) not “grindy” in some respect at end-game.

I don’t get it.

So, I have two questions for anyone, but especially people who think the game is too “grindy”.

1. How would you structure the game to avoid this problem?

2. Does any MMO completely remove this, in your opinion?

Please, no trolls. Please, keep this respectful. Please, keep this constructive.

1. Simply just… remove the grind? More emblems per dungeon run, less mats required for legendary OR replace the crappy quests with logic puzzles, u know a real quest, not collecting materials but a real quest, that would require us to think, to know the game well, to search under every rock, to look for every clue. AND obviously I would do my best to prevent people from spoiling such legendary quest through the internet, banning every guide and that kind of stuff.

2. No.

stories and legends in all of the viable quest on all part of the game.
to obtain special weapons , titles, special effects, or even gear.
digging more into the lore rather than 1 personal short stories .

First add Hard Mode. Second copy/paste gw1 dungeons, ALL OF THEM. Done. Of course in hard mode i don’t want any Blues from chests, NEVER.

one solution i can think of; instanced content.

take a part of the open world map, and make it instanced for 5 players.

problems with me right now;
-low level maps are too easy, thus become boring.
-dynamic events and temples are mass zergs and thus too easy and boring.

so, reuse lower level map by putting instanced high level content in them.

to me, dungeons are more fun because they are more challenging, and its fun to play with others, who usually talk more.

Przemek.6835:

1. Simply just… remove the grind? More emblems per dungeon run, less mats required for legendary OR replace the crappy quests with logic puzzles, u know a real quest, not collecting materials but a real quest, that would require us to think, to know the game well, to search under every rock, to look for every clue. AND obviously I would do my best to prevent people from spoiling such legendary quest through the internet, banning every guide and that kind of stuff.

2. No.

So your idea for end-game is pretty much same only with less effort?
If you want to do thinking you can always join mysteries like Final Rest, so that part of searching and researching is covered to certain extent. It is done pretty well too since its still unknown after 4 months, more than any game managed to keep shroud of mysterie on item. Also how will you ban sharing knowledge on free medium internet is?

Nuka Cola.8520:

First add Hard Mode. Second copy/paste gw1 dungeons, ALL OF THEM. Done. Of course in hard mode i don’t want any Blues from chests, NEVER.

something along those line.

as it is now, gw2 is way too easy in open world for max level character.

i feel like a themepark mmo should be much more instanced.
leave open world to sandbox.

1. You would never be able to structure the game without it. The only way to make it non grind would be: New patch here is a mail with the new gear we are putting in. What would you do then.

2. No MMo is with out grind. In fact you grind a Raid or dungeon until you have everything and then do the next version( Hord or nightmare modes) still in the end there is grind.

Problem is end-game was meant to keep you addicted and paying monthly while giving you fake feeling of progress. That is only end-game players ever seen so its safe to guess they can only offer suggestions within those line, with slight variations.
So far suggestions are: copy another game’s dungeons, better loot from chests, same thing only harder (hard mode), “real” quests…seriously? This are your suggestions people? I think you all are better off playing what you get served by professionals since most of you have no clue what should be alternative end-game other than gear threadmill in form of raid or instanced zones…
Just to make it clear im not saying i would think of better end-game but then again im happy with what this game is offering.

i like the more difficult content that dungeons provide.

find a way to give me that and i’m allright.

the living story ? seriously, as a level 80 full gear, its a loss of time.
there is like 5 lines of dialogue for it and you have to spank level 15 beasts…
really?
thats good according to you?

Remove levels OR make over half of the game’s zones max level.

Because endgame is just the same stuff…just at max level. That way people are not confused.

the game is about levelling up an alt, or do dungeons/wvw/pvp.

its allright. its still a LOT of content for a computer game.

but more instanced hardcore stuff is where they should focus their energy.
low levels peeps have more than enough to level up happily (i know i did).

redhare.9210:

1. You would never be able to structure the game without it. The only way to make it non grind would be: New patch here is a mail with the new gear we are putting in. What would you do then.

2. No MMo is with out grind. In fact you grind a Raid or dungeon until you have everything and then do the next version( Hord or nightmare modes) still in the end there is grind.

Except it doesn’t have to be that way. If you structure the game towards crafting, create 10 or 20 or maybe even 30 + unique armor sets, each has a certain set of stats plus 3 randomized stats and make champion mob / jumping puzzle / dungeon boss/ event bosses / wvw keep lords / random dead players in pvp drop these the mats, there’s hundred’s of variation for you to collect, to buy and sell.

Furthermore, if you can make the appearance of each armor set alterable ( meaning you can pull apart the wonky plate on some gaunlets and apply blades to them) , and if you can design so that each armor set will benefit you in specific situation ( for instant some armor are better against fire), while essentially keeping the stats on the same level, you basically have a game that provides motivation for players to keep on playing, collecting armors while participate in all the events that drops the mats.

If crafting is not your forte, you can just sell the mats and get yourself a nice legendary, or exchange the mats for gems, or maybe salvage them to get random superior sigils, you basically have a never ending game where you’ll pretty much always have things to do… until you get bored of what you were doing.

This doesn’t make you grind because most of the mats should have a high chance of dropping. The only thing you should need is participate only a few times of 1 certain events ( should you wish ) and you will obtain them. They should be no better than your average exotic, however, so you DON"T have to make them.

brunohstein.9038:

PVP.

PVP EVERYWHERE.

Or this.
But hey, pvp with no ingame ladder? no thanks. :P

Vorch.2985:

Remove levels OR make over half of the game’s zones max level.

Because endgame is just the same stuff…just at max level. That way people are not confused.

yup.
there should be 10 zones like orr.
and reduced the low level zones by half.

low level zones are ok for people who starts (no meed many zones) or people that level up an alt.. but then again.. if you level up an alt youll rock anyway.

problem with the design right now is that the low/medium zones are too numerous.

yeah, with many high level boss to farm and collect from, then it would be allright too.
but dont make the fights like jormag… ugh… zerg fest…

instanced boss fights! thats the only solution.
a zerg is simply boring.

Showatt what you say is still a grind. Even if the drops are more frequent you are still grinding to get the materials for the item you want to craft.

I like it how it is headed, just want more

More big dynamic events that affect the zone, more of that “battle lines” feel and bosses that are super poweful unless you complete some other events to support the people fighting (and you getting access to the chest if you helped)

One example could be the lyssa event, when people have to defend the waypoint to stop it being recaptured, it could be a vital job, but in the current system you don’t get the chest.

Having the dragons cause real problems in the zone if you don’t beat them too.

Basically just more events that intertwine to increase immersion.

@Avatar, it’s not a zerg if it’s difficult. The only reason you find the current bosses boring is that you don’t have to put much effort in.

end game can be grindy, but shouldnt be legendary grindy.

Content is the real key to endgame, but the key is, it should be fun and interesting
more fractals, fractals is an excellent way to have a scaling difficulty event with scaling rewards, now it just needs more possibilities, until it gets to the point you never know what your going to get.

In the open world, I would create some large scale dynamic events for each area, that qualify as elite, Orr is kind of has this concept, but now, tie it together even more. Add even more context to the temples, and some interesting conditions that occur when either nothing or everything is contested, with a few random ones that can happen inbetween.

Now translate this concept into more zones, their should be a story for every major area, (like orr has the things with the avatars) And it should be even more difficult, and sometimes involve new mechanics, it should scale fairly well, but start out built with 5+ in mind, and designed to scale well in complexity with up to 20+ people.
(IE when it scales up the mechanics change, new enemies come, different waves, perhaps different allies as well)

i wouldnt mind a hardmode world, where everything is harder, and your always scaled up to 80, (this way all levels can choose to participate, although its harder) i know it would split the community, but to be honest, the community is split between those that want challenge and those that dont anyhow.

As for rewards, develop some new skills
id say some swappable skills for each weapon, so basically another set of possibilities for each weapon
some new weapon types (unlocked through dungeons/fractals/high end WvWvW/high end in world content.
new skill animations
for ex.
blurred frenzy with the wild slashing animation, hits say 6 hits in2.5 seconds, at an interval of first 5 being .4 seconds apart and last being .5 seconds
can be changed to:
blurred frenzy
where after images do peircing stabs in the shape of a star for 5 hits, while the mesmer does some cool poses, at the same hits per second and interval

essentially a cosmetic skin for weapon skills.
this should be obtained through doing various endgame type activities. WITH a story element tied in, like a classic quest, say the legendary master mesmer asks you to do a wide selection of heroic activities of which you can select say 6 or 7 inbetween story element quests.

the game is solid, it has a strong framework and options to build on, the just need to get a little more imaginative with it, and tie in rewards people value to what is already fun activities.
At the end of the day its all about the content, and making the rewards for that content satisfying, it doesnt need to be a vertical gain, but it needs to be something thats cool and entertaining, or something that increases options.

copy GW end game completely or port it to the new engine.
had three and a bit whole games worth of endgame content to play, with quest synergies etc.

redhare.9210:

Showatt what you say is still a grind. Even if the drops are more frequent you are still grinding to get the materials for the item you want to craft.

Or you can just buy them… you know, from making money by doing things you don’t considered a grind. For example if you don’t think pvp is a grind, just play and you will come across these mats. Make the armor, sell them/ swap them for another gear.
Since the drop rate is so high they should be relatively cheap.

IF ‘doing something’ in order to get ‘something you want’ constitute a grind to you, then the act of playing game should be grinding also.

You’re playing the game to get enjoyment, which you want.

Getting a job is also a grind.

You work to get paid.

Life is a grind.

you do whatever you can in order to live.

And that isn’t what a grind is.

A grind means “Having to” doing things “REPEATEDLY” in order to get something. If you can get a mat from killing 1 or 2 boss, then it shouldn’t be considered a grind.

If you need to kill a boss 10 times or 20 times to get something, then it is a grind. I’m sorry but no game gives you everything from the get go so you can play. Even minecraft has grind. That wouldn’t be a game otherwise.

I love the way the game is now, but there is one point that I agree with, and that is the amount of higher difficulty content.

The temples (especially Lyssa and Grenth) feel like a step in the right direction, but we could use more. Ideally, I would like to see more fights – in all zones – that require at least a portion (but not all) of the group to coordinate.

I have high hopes that the guild focused event chains the developers mentioned in a recent interview will scratch that particular itch.

Regardless, Im very happy with the current game. Ive been at “end game” for a long time now and still always find something I want to do (without resorting to an alt).

emikochan.8504:

I like it how it is headed, just want more

More big dynamic events that affect the zone, more of that “battle lines” feel and bosses that are super poweful unless you complete some other events to support the people fighting (and you getting access to the chest if you helped)

One example could be the lyssa event, when people have to defend the waypoint to stop it being recaptured, it could be a vital job, but in the current system you don’t get the chest.

Having the dragons cause real problems in the zone if you don’t beat them too.

Basically just more events that intertwine to increase immersion.

@Avatar, it’s not a zerg if it’s difficult. The only reason you find the current bosses boring is that you don’t have to put much effort in.

Making a way to fail dragon would be great start. Creating aftershock effects of failing dragons is next logical step. Its alot of work but revamping those encounters would satisfy my desire for epic dragon fight. Dragons should be harder than Orr temples!

problem is too many pve players. The game sould be open pvp with guild owned citys that can be pilliaged and burned. The games called guild wars….yet to see a guild war. at least they could give us pvpers a pvp sever

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grind

this is a definition of grind from a dictionary.

i actually liked the jumping puzzle in wvw eternal battleground.

some kind of instanced guild vs guild “pvp dungeon” in which you need to jump, avoid traps, kill beasts and enemy players.

would need to design it carefully, but it could be a blast.
wvwvw without zerg, pvp with pve elements, instanced.

makes sense to me.

redhare.9210:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grind

this is a definition of grind from a dictionary.

The act of grinding.
2. A crunching or grinding noise.
3. A specific grade or degree of pulverization, as of coffee beans: drip grind.
4. Informal A laborious task, routine, or study: the daily grind.
5. Informal A student who works or studies excessively.
6. Slang An erotic rotation of the pelvis.

Yes. A laborious task. A routine.

You ever consider the possibility that different people may have a different definition of what a “laborious task is”?

For instance my cousin love drawing and draws everyday as a living. He has to. And he wants to.

However there is no way in hell I would want to draw everyday…not unless I’m getting paid.

Here’s the twist.

If I wouldn’t want to draw everyday, and if I can find another job with the same pay, I might as well change jobs.

Same with grinding. IF you think crafting for the armor you want is laborious, rest assure there will be people who don’t think the same way. And even if you DO think it’s laborious, no one is forcing you to do them. You can always NOT craft it through grind and instead just buy them.

AS I have stated.

Grinding doesn’t exist – not unless it involves killing 1000 monsters, clicking a button over and over again to get something. To me this seems like the most logical assumption of grinding as the labor clearly offset the gain… and even then some might enjoy that.

Therefore all grinds are self imposed.

Find a good use of all those skill points you acquire after 80. They could totally make something around that besides using them for legendary’s. Not everyone is trying to go for one.

So far I like where the game is heading. I can’t wait to see what they do with the Guild Missions. That seems like a fantastic idea. I hope they push the daily’s out a little more, maybe tying it to a couple of zones one day, then the entire world the next. Maybe add in a few Champion kills in ORR. Stuff like that.
I am pretty happy with the game over all though.

showatt.9413:

redhare.9210:

Showatt what you say is still a grind. Even if the drops are more frequent you are still grinding to get the materials for the item you want to craft.

Or you can just buy them… you know, from making money by doing things you don’t considered a grind. For example if you don’t think pvp is a grind, just play and you will come across these mats. Make the armor, sell them/ swap them for another gear.
Since the drop rate is so high they should be relatively cheap.

IF ‘doing something’ in order to get ‘something you want’ constitute a grind to you, then the act of playing game should be grinding also.

You’re playing the game to get enjoyment, which you want.

Getting a job is also a grind.

You work to get paid.

Life is a grind.

you do whatever you can in order to live.

And that isn’t what a grind is.

A grind means “Having to” doing things “REPEATEDLY” in order to get something. If you can get a mat from killing 1 or 2 boss, then it shouldn’t be considered a grind.

If you need to kill a boss 10 times or 20 times to get something, then it is a grind. I’m sorry but no game gives you everything from the get go so you can play. Even minecraft has grind. That wouldn’t be a game otherwise.

What would stop people to kill that boss for 100s more times anyway? If anything they would be grinding them more. Only then everbody would complain armors are too easy to make thus wortless, “ANet fix economy nao!” Getting everything for minimal effort is not answer either…

pencapchew.5432:

Find a good use of all those skill points you acquire after 80. They could totally make something around that besides using them for legendary’s. Not everyone is trying to go for one.

So far I like where the game is heading. I can’t wait to see what they do with the Guild Missions. That seems like a fantastic idea. I hope they push the daily’s out a little more, maybe tying it to a couple of zones one day, then the entire world the next. Maybe add in a few Champion kills in ORR. Stuff like that.
I am pretty happy with the game over all though.

the guild mission and guild pvp is the best thing coming to this game imo.

if its good, it can turn the game around drastically.
unlike those “laurels” that are basically an upgrade to the dailies.

i d like to see some kind of pvp guild mission in which 2 or more guild need to achieve a specific goal in an open pvp instanced area.

1. There is no way to eliminate grinds. No matter how easy you make a game, someone will still call it grindy. It’s an inherent part of the way these games work. Once all of the truly interesting stuff is done, once all of the story elements have been seen, what you’re left is what’s repeatable. No matter how amusing something is, if it’s repeatable content with a reward at the end it will always be considered a grind.

Mostly because people think they’re entitled to anything they want without having to work for it. People are like that, whether they’ll admit it or not.

2. No, and there never will be.

1. (I may go a bit off topic)
It is nearly impossible to make a game that is not a grind (in terms of spending hours on end to receive a certain item) in an MMORPG. Especially since they (Anet, and mmorpg companies in general) want to keep the playerbase playing for more then 30 hours, they need something apart from the regular content. Although if sooooooo much versatile/different content was added with different mechanics that lasted just as long as a gear grind, i would love that (at the moment, they are doing a pretty decent job of it, i’m enjoying it). Another big wall in making a game non-grindy is the term grindy is self-imposed. What I find grindy, may not be grindy to someone else, and vice versa. Just like how you can’t make everyone happy, that’s why there is so much conflict on these forums between people who like the changes in this game, and the ones who don’t like them and enjoy a treadmill of repeating content (which isn’t exactly bad, I played Wow and doing dungeons and raids were fun, but I eventually got bored of them).
2. No MMORPG has been non-grindy. In my opinion, GW2 has done the best job of making a non-grindy game, since there are so many options. I have not worked towards ascended or Legendary, and i’m perfectly happy doing WvW, Fractals, Dungeons, Orr, Alt leveling, JPs, etc. (I’m just one of those people that uses every aspect of the game, so that might be a reason i’m still enjoying the game, since I do literally everything…)

On a side note, it put a smile on my face to read all these replies, and all of them were constructive, no one took shots at each other , even though there were disagreements. This is how it should be

Great thread and discussion, Eddard! It seems to show:
- What “Endgame” is can be very individual
- It’s hard for any developer to create it for everyone.
- It can be difficult to distinguish from any other stage in the game in terms of mechanics, content, and motivations.

I believe frustrations at “Endgame” can come from people wanting the game to keep giving them something they’ve already gotten. Other games, single player games, have done this before for us. For single player games, when we get what we need from them we put them down and call them “clocked”.
Some MMOs have managed to extend out the time it takes to feel “clocked” for years for us, but because we know developers add new content we have built ideas that these games can keep feeding us.
Yet they are still games and we can still reach that point of getting all we need from them before all the content has been consumed.
I’d say this relationship of developers continuing to give content is “Endgame”, and because it doesn’t satisfy a need within us (it’s already satisfied), we still have expectations of getting satisfied by this relationship and become angry at it when it doesn’t.

There’s no such thing as endgame in this game.

No whole word is the endgame. Anet just needs to expand on the world by giving us new DE’s, and other content. That is easily reachable by all players.

If you want endgame to be content only for elite players to enjoy. That’s not going to happen. The so called elite players do not ever buy gems.

In response to point 2 in the original post, I think it is practically impossible to design an MMO without grind.

Strictly speaking any form of repetition can be interpreted as a grind.

Alternatively, name an MMO without grind and I will guarantee that I will find something grindy in it.

However, grind can be fun or boring and the latter is what seems to rile people up.

The only viable solution to remove grind literally is to not have numerically targeted based goals like killing something x number of times, or give everyone rewards after killing something once and that’s it. Basically, remove anything that can be constituted as repetitive and have stuff that’s fun to do. For example, some games like Counter- Strike have practically zero grind yet a lot of players find it fun and worthwhile playing hours on end, even though at the end of the day, they don’t receive any material benefits / rewards. Perhaps design an MMO like this.

The only thing that has a hint to the grind ahead of me is obtaining materials needed for crafting. Example: I want to craft a plethora of weapons but they need lodestones. I can farm before DR kicks in, never obtaining even one. Getting other mats seems easy enough, but those lodestones specifically present me with a problem.

Other than that, compared to other games…the “grind” in this game seems almost nil. If I don’t like doing something I can do something else at cap with no real penalty of having to jump on a treadmill. Ascended stuff at this point doesn’t really qualify as it’s not something I have to have to compete. Time will tell on that one though.

How would I structure endgame?
PvE
……………More dungeons. I’m sure they are on the way.
……………More Armor Sets. I’m sure they’re on the way.
……………Named Boss drops in the open world. Something I like in many themeparks and even Guild Wars with their green weapon drops.
……………More personal story. I’m sure it’s on the way.
……………Crafting, create a large set of weapon/armor components that fit together like a puzzle, well, maybe legos is a better example. Meaning: you craft a sword hilt that can be pieced together with x amount of blades. Then, you are able to name the sword and put it for auction.
……………Housing, it’s coming I guess. But how customizable it will be, who knows?

sPvP
……………More Game Types. Conquest is stale. Bring on a more fleshed out version of Reapers Rumble, I dug that game type.
……………GvG, we need this.
……………More Maps.

WvW
……………Kinda was wishing for a larger map with sandbox type of building, but the devs in one interview kinda brought up a good point. They didn’t want an opponent to build a wall infront of anothers spawn point. If they could find a way to do this without that happening, I’d be for it.

Maybe make it like rings on the map. The outter ring has keeps and towers much like current borderlands. From this ring outward to spawns is a no build zone. Rings inward, you can build additional keeps/towers/supply camps. Supply camps are actually built and supplied by players. Example: Lumber Yard is built by players, players have to supply wood to lumber yard. Supply is then transported to keep/tower build site. You can only have so many of one structure up at a time.

………….Something to promote small scale battles and causes the construction of battlelines. Mine fields come to mind. Hidden pits with spikes come to mind.
Rows of arrow carts and balistas come to mind.

………….Scouting, actual scouting should be done. Map communication between players instead of a map telling me who holds what. Via the map, we should only know what we hold. I just personally like scouting. I like peeking over a hillside trying to figure how many may be defending a tower or how many defenders are currently in a supply camp. Maybe have active commanders be privey to that knowledge of who owns what, I dunno.

Anyhow, I need another whiskey.

Eddard.2930:

How could you possibly design an MMO that wasn’t to a certain extent “grindy”?

http://www.blogcdn.com/news.bigdownload.com/media/2008/05/guild-wars-logo---fconw.jpg

I would strongly consider adding raids.

No gear grind (although you may be able to attain Ascended gear), just epic boss fights for 10 man groups in instanced dungeons.

They can be tuned to be hard as long as there is some prestige to beating them.

Maybe have them drop unique skins …but otherwise just give guilds content that actually requires guilds (and that isn’t WvW).

Dee Jay.2460:

I would strongly consider adding raids.

No gear grind (although you may be able to attain Ascended gear), just epic boss fights for 10 man groups in instanced dungeons.

They can be tuned to be hard as long as there is some prestige to beating them.

Maybe have them drop unique skins …but otherwise just give guilds content that actually requires guilds (and that isn’t WvW).

They’ll be introducing Guild Missions soon.

Guilds are extremely important to the game. We need to ensure there is a volume of content to foster this strong community/social bond. To that end, we’re working on adding new types of content to the game in early 2013 that will allow guilds to go on missions together. Some of these missions may be content designed specifically for the guild to accomplish within certain constraints or time requirements, while others will see the creation of new content by a guild/s everyone in the world can experience. Over time we’ll continue to expand this system with new guild rewards, missions, and tools to allow guilds of all sizes to play a stronger part in solidifying the communities of the GW2 world.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/colin-johanson-on-guild-wars-2-in-the-months-ahead/

One thing that could help would be to turn big tasks (getting all mats for legendary for example) into smaller ones but more demanding.
Let’s see:
You need certain item type which drops from elementals. And we have different level of those – young, adult, planar, unseen ones, champs.
To get mats required for legendary, you need to farm champs (of course not full stack, but ~50). However, with current gear, they are simply unbeatable. To defeat one, you need to buff yourself with power of unseen ones. So, you need to grind them a bit to acquire special mats for type of item to make fighting next tier of them possible.
This way we would have visible progress and more fun – “YES! At last I can fight adult ones! Time to get ready for kittening planars!”
Addition could be to go to certain bosses for required components and so on.

Next thing – item progression – Let items we wield most gain experience and hence give them possibility to turn into unique piece of equipment. This would add some visual effects to them and maybe even give them names!

Arenas for PvP, WvW and PvE players. Everyone can participate in those maps with style of free for all/deathmatch, or team deathmatches.

Options for dungeons – starting with overall difficulty level (easy,normal, hard, very hard and even iron man mode – if you die, game over, need to restart dungeon ) and challenges there to unlock additional fun modes – slow mobs, extra fast mobs, extra tiny mobs, complete dark, only melee mode, only ranged mode, cannot use utilities, always poisones mode, etc.

Overall I think that we lack things to achieve as longer than one day goals (no weekly achievements, no no) – I enjoy doing dailies but after it’s done it’s done and I need to wait for another day. There should be gazzilion of similar things to do – small parts of something bigger. Gaining levels of progression of tasks which cannot be done by chance (like dailies).

But, of course, we need rewards and by that I mean – new skins (oh, how I wish there were skins unique to professions).

Another idea – make quests and challenges which can only be completed with certain classes Defeat boss using only fear and minions (necros) or using portal on enemies, control your pet to get to treasure etc.

And another one – introduce skill skins Make attacks look different, make minions, pets, summons have different looks.

I like the idea of guild/group instances; that would be fun. Just like how story mode sections off a piece of the map, group instance could do the same. Perhaps not make them quite as hard as a dungeon, but they could be “challenge mode” for the normal chain events. That would be something extra at end game that I don’t think would take too much from a programming stand point. Just make the “magic find” chance higher in these instances.

Would this take away from the grind? Not really. It would just be one more thing to grind through really. But it would add some variety in the end game at least.

Players are what make these games and player led content is what is necessary to keep it from going stale at end game and in between new content. I think when a character hits 80 and completes the story it should then ascend into a semi open world pvp status. The whole open world outside cities should then become a little more volatile but only if players choose to take part, marking themselves for pvp. Of-course there will be rewards for taking part so that a player kill drops good loot. Also organise areas around chests to become automatic pvp for level 80s so that to get a chest players will have to fight over it. Obviously you can only use the chest once that day with that character but you may choose to camp it and stop others getting to it which could initiate some fun scenarios even those not good at pvp could take advantage of.

More ideas along these lines that are not necessary but add an edge to exploring in the end game if players so choose.

joneb.5679:

Players are what make these games and player led content is what is necessary to keep it from going stale at end game and in between new content. I think when a character hits 80 and completes the story it should then ascend into a semi open world pvp status. The whole open world outside cities should then become a little more volatile but only if players choose to take part, marking themselves for pvp. Of-course there will be rewards for taking part so that a player kill drops good loot. Also organise areas around chests to become automatic pvp for level 80s so that to get a chest players will have to fight over it. Obviously you can only use the chest once that day with that character but you may choose to camp it and stop others getting to it which could initiate some fun scenarios even those not good at pvp could take advantage of.

More ideas along these lines that are not necessary but add an edge to exploring in the end game if players so choose.

That is so far away from philosophy ANet wants this game to be built around. Your idea probably comes from titles like Lineage 2, Aion, and another korean grind mmo’s where everything in game has to be competition (even looting chest, or “raid rights”) and i can be happy anything similar wont be present in GW2, which is why im playing it and not L2…

joneb.5679:

Players are what make these games and player led content is what is necessary to keep it from going stale at end game and in between new content. I think when a character hits 80 and completes the story it should then ascend into a semi open world pvp status. The whole open world outside cities should then become a little more volatile but only if players choose to take part, marking themselves for pvp. Of-course there will be rewards for taking part so that a player kill drops good loot. Also organise areas around chests to become automatic pvp for level 80s so that to get a chest players will have to fight over it. Obviously you can only use the chest once that day with that character but you may choose to camp it and stop others getting to it which could initiate some fun scenarios even those not good at pvp could take advantage of.

More ideas along these lines that are not necessary but add an edge to exploring in the end game if players so choose.

Please no. PvP… I avoid like the plague. I really don’t like it at all. I love how it’s completely optional, unless of course I want to finish my monthly, which I usually don’t. A fix like this would almost make it required. Notice I said ALMOST; I know there’s still a choice.

I wouldn’t.

I’d create only a middle-game, with no beginning nor end. There would be no introduction, nor level-progression. Some gear would be worse and some better, but this would depend on how well-made it was and the quality of the components or ingredients. The latter would be a smaller part of it and the ‘best’ gear would be less efficient to produce and maintain, time and/or resources wise.

There would be no unified story or objective purpose. Various groups or individuals would have their own beliefs regarding these matters, including history. There would be no officially correct version of history, though some beliefs may be more commonly held than others, and naturally some events would leave behind actual evidence that something along those lines happened. Learning about the world and what exists within it (beyond game mechanics) would be very… direct.

No class system for skills or gear would exist, nor would attributes be fixed. An attribute related to skills you used often would become stronger, while those not in use would slowly dwindle to a base amount, as your multitude of invisible ‘skillpoints’ shifted around to where they were needed. Absolute specialization (using skills which benefit from the same attribute, as well as only one attribute) would be viable, however diminishing returns would keep it from becoming necessary. Some skills and gear would have more than one related attribute, and different styles of use that would prioritise different rates of gain amongst those attributes, which in turn would benefit that particular style a little more.

A player’s allies and enemies would vary depending on how they chose to interact with the game’s various groups and individuals. One would need to be careful, as it would be easy to make them dislike you, and much harder to convince them to stop. They wouldn’t be omniscient, however, and if you could keep actions they disapprove of beyond the scope of their awareness, their feelings would be unchanged. It may also take time for news to spread from First Faction’s Group A to their Group B in another part of the world.

The world itself would remain fairly static, but the inhabitants would move around as well as increase or decrease according to how they influenced one another and how players influenced them (sort of like the back-and-forth between event NPCs trying to control an area, but with no assumption that one would win or lose by default without assistance, and on a wider scale).

Each player’s ability to influence the world would be quite minimal* individually. Assuming a player and NPC of the same race with the same layout of skills/attributes and the same gear, the player would rely on the fact that they aren’t an AI to gain an advantage. For this reason death would not be punished beyond what factors made being dead naturally inconvenient, like removal from an area, wasted consumables, and whatever damage equipment may have taken in the process of being killed.

*Regarding scale, that is. The longevity of their influence compared to what it is in an event that resets every few minutes is another matter.

I think that sort of thing would keep me busy for some time.

Anyone else?

There are some good ideas here.