On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

On Lottery (RNG) Boxes

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Posted by: Maz.8604

Maz.8604

TLDR: Points are boiled down at the bottom, but I encourage you to ready the body.

The Right to Make Money

No one is arguing against any individual or company’s right to make money. What is generally a point of contention is how that money is made. If oil was a clean, safe resource to produce, with absolutely no environmental impacts and operated in more of an open market than say, OPEC, there would be very few people who could complain about how they do business. If the market crash had not occurred due to irresponsible lending and selling of securities, no one would have an issue with how much money the banking industry makes. I am not analogizing GW2’s profit model to either the oil industry or the financial industry in terms of effects on society, merely where people tend to take issue when these industries attempt to do things that make them money. Saying that I’ve Godwin’d ArenaNet is a red herring in this regard.

What this piece attempts to do is describe how poorly these practices are for consumers (ie: you) not just in terms of yourself, but for the game as a whole, and your fellow players.

More Money than a Flat Rate?

The product could in theory be sold on the Cash Shop for a flat rate, especially if they are already being offered for a limited time. The question becomes, why not?

There are various reasons. The return on investment (ROI) of the lottery boxes is higher than that of a flat rate. The cost of a flat rate in order to equal the return that the lottery boxes provide, a flat rate would appear to be too expensive, with too large of a price tag to pay in one expense. This goes towards the wedge of individual experience, further below.

If it were a flat rate, you could determine whether you liked the product enough for it to be worth the flat rate quoted. Or you could consider the product to be worth no money at all, at which point the company has lost your sale and has to make up the difference from a user who wants the product.

The drop rates are unknown until someone bothers to invest and do the research, either by grinding a lot of boxes or buying them outright, the latter of which is a net-positive for the company. And by the time the results are recorded and posted, the company has already seen sales from consumers assuming that the drop rate cannot be that bad.

The Wedges of “Individual Experience” and “Personal Responsibility”

Divisiveness is the greatest weapon of any entity against a collective to shield from its greatest weakness. You want the populace to be split on issues because if a high percentage of the body every aligns itself against you, you will feel its effects.

The randomness of these boxes creates a variable experience. However unlikely it is, it is possible for a lucky person to get the products he needs by opening a mere ten boxes. Suddenly, his experience is “this is the best thing EVER.” For another individual, they could open box upon box upon box and spend a large amount of money without getting a single claim ticket.

Since experiences vary, its harder to reach a consensus on drop rates. There will be people satisfied with their experience and others who feel as if its unfair. Some will be accused of merely being “unlucky.” Some will engage ad hominem, attacking other consumers for buying so many boxes irresponsibly, despite that being the intent of the company. Strife ensues and its much harder to direct blame against one specific entity as the customers squabble amongst one another.

It is therefore much harder to get consensus on implementation than if the product had a flat rate.

They benefit from these wedges to keep their customer-base from coming to a consensus on anything, even as far as debate the value of the implementation instead of the value of the product being offered for the price.

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Posted by: Maz.8604

Maz.8604

Instilling Urgency Artificially: Limited-Time Offers

If you could just grind these out through normal activity (gameplay), there are always going to be those who stick with the grind over the shortcut of buying the product outright. So to convert even a tiny percentage of those people (a net positive for the company), the company has a limited time offer on the product. That is greed. The limited time offer on the product is nothing more than a trick, to artificially give a sense of urgency.

In games like Tribes: Ascend everyone can get access to everything except skins (which cost money, but are around forever). If just takes time. You can choose to grind it out or you can buy it outright. There is no limited time offer. There are sales to incentivize a period where you would like to see more income, but a gun in Tribes: Ascend is never going to disappear because you did not buy it this month. It is a psychological trick meant to make you spend more money, and is an anti-consumer practice.

This operates much like the Disney Vault, in which Disney only releases a movie for a limited time every seven years or so on home media. This increases the scarcity of the movie and instills urgency to purchase the movie when it eventually becomes available.

Worse than Gambling

Gambling can be viewed as an experience. You play the game and the money is the barrier for playing the game, with more money as a reward for winning. One usually goes in knowing that you will likely lose money, but there’s also a chance you could come out of ahead. It can get impersonal, such as with video poker machines or slot machines, but generally, it’s an experience at playing a game of chance.

Common wisdom is that the results are stacked in the house’s favor, and there is generally a poor outlook on people who think they can regularly come out ahead by playing, or in other words, playing to win.

Or going to a Dave & Buster’s (or Chuck E. Cheese’s). Sure, you may be attempting to win tickets for a particular prize, but you are usually paying as much for the experience of playing the games themselves. You get the experience. It is a poor value and poor sense to play at these places just to win tickets and win prizes, especially without a particularly good run of luck, you would end up buying the prize outright than trying to win it with tickets.

But these lottery boxes are different. You are not paying to gamble for the experience, generally. There is actually no experience, or at least less of one. The similarity is very much like buying a box of cereal you hate because it has an item you really want. At that point, you are just ripping open the box, pouring out the cereal for the product and potentially getting nothing for your trouble. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum until the limited time offer (artificially created sense of urgency) expires or you get the prize you want.

(edited by Maz.8604)

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Posted by: Maz.8604

Maz.8604

The Company’s Gamble

The company has its own gamble going.

It is relying on the obfuscated nature of its game of chance, with its accompanying ability to change the odds at their leisure, to keep its customer base arguing and speculating over the factual details as much as the subjective details. If you knew all the details, it would be much easier to base an argument for (or against) purchasing the product outright and there would be less coloring and argument from individual experiences.

It is relying on the artificial sense of urgency to push people into buying the product without spending a lot of time thinking about it, as well as pushing those who attempted grind it out to ultimately buy into the lottery boxes from the Cash Shop at the eleventh hour.

It is relying on human nature. There are people out there who are gullible, naive, have little foresight and in some cases, an addiction to gambling. These people with a clinical lack of self-control who will hand over money to engage in this process in hopes of getting the rush of a win.

Defending the Indefensible

The fact of the matter is that there will always be people attempting to defend these practices. Usually, the sum of the arguments is that the company has a right to make money. But why? Why are these practices worthy of money? And why do these people, who can only benefit as a consumer if these practices were revised to be less abusive, defend them? Why implement these practices over a flat rate, offered through the Cash Shop, unless this lottery box implementation makes more money.

I tend to look towards a rather quotable piece of TotalBiscuit:

What the hell happened to gamers looking out for each other? When did that suddenly fall by the wayside in favor of being an unemployed PR representative for a company that has been milking you for money? When did this happen? Was this with the advent of the Internet? Is this a recent thing? I can’t exactly pinpoint when it happened, but fanboy culture has gotten to the point of being actively detrimental to video games. It benefits nobody whatsoever other than the companies in question.

It’s wonderful that they’ve got a small little army of people that are willing to actively suppress dissent. Actively lie about the game. Actively try to character assassinate people. Engage in ad hominems. Slam them over social networks. Downvote videos. Lie in the comments section. It’s wonderful if they’re willing to do that, if you happen to be [the company] or any other company that has people like that. It’s terrible for the rest of us. It’s really really bad.

Gamers don’t look out for each other anymore. And that’s really depressing. The last thing that should be happening is gamers actively trying to mislead other gamers because they want to feel better about their purchase. Or because they want more players in their game, even though the game is clearly not up to spec. Where do you get off doing that? That is morally bankrupt. That is ethically unsound in the worst possible way. It sucks, and you suck for doing it.

People who defend these practices want the games they play to succeed regardless of how the company in question behaves, because they have some investment. They either want the game to have more players, be more successful so it will stick around for a long time, get more development, release expansions, etc, etc.

TLDR: Ultimately, it boils down to the idea that the lottery boxes offer a better return on investment than just simply slapping a flat rate on the product. It adds nothing to the product itself and is just a method for increasing profits, without doing anything. It is a form of predation on consumers, it should not be tolerated, but there will always be people willing to defend a company’s decision either out of apathy, a belief it does not nor will ever affect them or some other selfish reason.

Edit: Hopefully most of the formatting has not been preserved from Google Docs.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

This is a really good analysis of the situation as it stands. I’m not sure it adds anything that hasn’t been said in other threads, but it does bring the entire issue under one roof, so to speak.

The difference, though, in comparing Tribes: Ascended and an MMO is the amount of new content that the company has to create to keep people interested.

In first person multiplayer shooters like Tribes Ascended, it’s all about player vs. player and that makes it’s own content. The same can not be said for an MMO. So I find it interesting that you chose to compare an MMOs cash shop to that of a FPS. I’m not sure the situation is congruent.

The question is, for me, how much money does it take to maintain that game, compared to how much money it takes to maintain an MMO. When comparing cash shops, it’s easy to make the basic assumption that the cash needs of one game are equal to another, but I don’t find that true.

Even within the MMO genre, its’ not true. WoW has a cash shop and you can buy a mount for $25 dollars or more. They charge as much as Guild Wars 2 for server transfers too…but they also have a monthly fee….a huge influx of cash every month.

Other MMOs have cash shops that are far worse than Guild Wars 2’s. They lock off certain professions or certain races. In some you can buy traits or character upgrades. In the worst of them you can buy BIS gear. It’s a pretty sad story, all together.

But because every MMO that has a cash shop and no subscription has a cash shop at least as bad as Guild Wars 2, it makes you wonder why.

I don’t think it’s particularly good to compare the cash shop in an FPS where regular content isn’t a monthly deal and no one is expecting it really, and something like Guild Wars 2. In fact, do we even know how big the company that makes Tribes: Ascended is. How many people they’re paying?

That sort of overhead definitely changes the game with regards to how “greedy” a cash shop is. I don’t have the answer, because I haven’t researched it, but I do know that it’s far easier to run an FPS than an MMORPG.

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Posted by: Mercurio.4970

Mercurio.4970

excellent post! Right now the forum is filled with outrage over the RNG trickery being foisted upon us. This is a very well articulated anchor for fellow posters form an educated opinion on the subject.

Musashin (80 Guard) – Dragolisk (80 Ele)
Artemix (80 Rang) – Mercurio Rex (80 War)
Nine Divines [ND] – Sorrow’s Furnace

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Posted by: JustTrogdor.7892

JustTrogdor.7892

I posted a similar comment, specifically related to the “It teaches kids to gamble” claim.

Its basically operating conditioning using a variable interval schedule. It is not uncommon at all and is used in marketing by major and small companies all the time. I see nothing wrong with it. I bought a few boxes today myself and only got some stuff I could sell for a few gold.

Other subscription based MMOs do the same thing using varaible reward in an effort to keep people going from month to month. If they dropped all the best stuff at a high percentage then everyone would have the best stuff over a short time and then people would lose interest because everyone was the same.

It’s the same reason some have the misconception that because player A got 2 < whatever > after 400 hours of play and player B played 1000 hours and only got one, that something is not right with the random configuration.

I think the gambling argument is often used in an effort to paint the RNG more ugly as a means to express frustration with system in place.

The Burninator

(edited by JustTrogdor.7892)

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Posted by: Mahaedros.7085

Mahaedros.7085

The RNG and these forums are awful

I don’t understand how a company can moderate their own forums in the way this company does… they have to realize that the people who volunteer to speak for Anet cost them serious money by driving people away…

I would buy lots of things from the cash shop…but not RNG items.

The quote from TotalBiscuit is great.

I looked forward to playing this game and have played since beta. Now, though i still have fun leveling alts and stuff I like to do, I’m looking and waiting for a different MMORP that is not so slimey.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing – Edmund Burke

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

The RNG and these forums are awful

I don’t understand how a company can moderate their own forums in the way this company does… they have to realize that the people who volunteer to speak for Anet cost them serious money by driving people away…

I would buy lots of things from the cash shop…but not RNG items.

The quote from TotalBiscuit is great.

I looked forward to playing this game and have played since beta. Now, though i still have fun leveling alts and stuff I like to do, I’m looking and waiting for a different MMORP that is not so slimey.

Good luck with that. Most MMOs I’ve played are more slimy than this.

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Posted by: Mahaedros.7085

Mahaedros.7085

It’s a fun game but I don’t like the influence of Nexon and NCsoft.

read the quote from Totalbiscuit again instead of posting again Vayne

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing – Edmund Burke

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

It’s a fun game but I don’t like the influence of Nexon and NCsoft.

read the quote from Totalbiscuit again instead of posting again Vayne

I read the quote. Want to know something? TB is like a guy. His opinion is worth as much as yours. Or mine. Or anyone.

Yes, it’s a very lovely quote. What every happened to…

But those who are familiar with the history of the world know there really was never a golden era. Sure everyone looks out for each other when there are only five guys around. That’s human nature. That’s survival. Small, close knit communities tend to look out for each other.

Then you move to the city. Gaming is no longer a niche market with five guys with neckbeards sitting in mom’s basement. It’s big business. And no matter what TB says or anyone says, human nature is human nature.

We have the same stupid human nature problems we had in the dark ages. We have the same stupid human nature problems we had in the nineteeth century.

Basically, small groups stick together and support each other and big groups tend to form cultures that think differently than small groups. That’s that TB is saying. What ever happened to when gamers stuck up for each other.

I don’t lie in my posts. And naysayers often use hyperbole to make things sound worse than they are because they don’t like it. In every single business (not just gaming), once the suits get in it’s the same. Publishing…check…movies…check….music…check. All of these industries have serious flaws, because they’re run by marketing departments.

Publshing companies used to be run by editors and they made decisions based on you know…quality. Now they’re run by marketing and they make decisions based on, you know…we can always use another celebrity cook book.

Times change. Businesses change. There’s reality and there’s TB living in the past, because he remembers when gaming was niche. Okay, so much for his quote.

So how much is Anet paying their staff? How big is their staff? How much staff do they need to create constant content? If they don’t create this content, how many people would leave the game?

I don’t think TB invested millions of dollars to make a game. It’s so easy to criticize, but not all criticism is valid.

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Posted by: tolunart.2095

tolunart.2095

It’s an interesting quote, but having an opinion does not make you a bad person. It doesn’t mention the forum trolls who make false and often ridiculous claims about the game in an attempt to create arguments for their own enjoyment.

I try to correct misinformation when I can, and attempt to use common sense and avoid spreading misinformation. I don’t lie or conceal information to make the game look better. I don’t try to defend anything about the game for its own sake, because I have no personal investment in the game. I play it because it’s fun to play, and when it’s not fun I play something else.

The RNG boxes don’t need to be defended, because Anet is going to do what’s best for the game, and best for the company, and best for the workers who get paid by the company for making the game better. They have access to much better information about the habits of their players than we do, and if the RNG boxes were as unpopular or illegal or any of the things that those against them claim, then they would not be in the game.

That they repeatedly appear in different configurations indicates that Anet is interested in exploring them as an option to bring out new content and to make money, and that people are willing to buy them. Arguing about it on the forums will not change that – the majority of the thousands and perhaps millions of people who are buying them are not reading these messages at all. And ultimately they determine what will happen, we do not.

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Posted by: Dog.1472

Dog.1472

I like this post. They may make more money through RNG, but it is an incredibly disgusting way of cheating people out of their money and it ultimately drives people away. In the end, I don’t think getting more money now will help when you drive all of your customers away with dirty business.

I would be so much happier if they just sold their items at a flat rate.

Anet is starting to feel more and more like that guy in a trench coat standing in an alley that wants you to try your luck at finding the cup with a coin under it.

“Please, you can look down on people without having to be physically above them.
As an asura, I do this all the time.”

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Posted by: tigirius.9014

tigirius.9014

The RNG and these forums are awful

I don’t understand how a company can moderate their own forums in the way this company does… they have to realize that the people who volunteer to speak for Anet cost them serious money by driving people away…

I would buy lots of things from the cash shop…but not RNG items.

The quote from TotalBiscuit is great.

I looked forward to playing this game and have played since beta. Now, though i still have fun leveling alts and stuff I like to do, I’m looking and waiting for a different MMORP that is not so slimey.

Do you happen to have the link to his statement because I like listening to him on matters like this but I find his channel confusing when I search it.

Thanks in advance.

Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!

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Posted by: tigirius.9014

tigirius.9014

I like this post. They may make more money through RNG, but it is an incredibly disgusting way of cheating people out of their money and it ultimately drives people away. In the end, I don’t think getting more money now will help when you drive all of your customers away with dirty business.

I would be so much happier if they just sold their items at a flat rate.

Anet is starting to feel more and more like that guy in a trench coat standing in an alley that wants you to try your luck at finding the cup with a coin under it.

This is how I feel, especially with the lopsided loot system. It’s not truly RNG when the same exact people do the same exact things and end up with wildly different if any loot at all. Like one person in a five man will have 9 items while another has 2 and the rest get junk. That’s not RNG that’s loot nerfing or loot manipulation and it’s only going to end when enough people become outraged about it.

“It’s wonderful that they’ve got a small little army of people that are willing to actively suppress dissent. Actively lie about the game. Actively try to character assassinate people.”

I get this constantly and I agree when did it become fashionable to become the spokesperson completely lying about just how bad a business practice is. All of the subjects of loot manipulation, all items being in the store in an RNG fashion for a limited time or for a limited in game currency, and the problems of not delivering what they’ve promised…..ALL constantly attacked by a few people who might as well be PR associates for the game company.

There are two on this very thread right now rather early in the reply process that consistantly take away from these complaints and attack them from all sides telling people they are completing wrong when they know that’s not true. They Know the game is as bad as people say it is in these areas yet they consistantly deny it. I dunno what their deal is but they need to let us vent and leave the honest well thought out well experienced by many complaints alone and stop trying to convince people everything is rainbows and unicorn farts in this game. Seriously.

And people buy into what they are saying until they actually end up in the situations the rest of us have been complaining about the entire time.

I feel sorry for the new players I really do, because there is so much wrong nothing short of an expansion’s amount of funds is going to fix it satisfactorily at this point.

Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!

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Posted by: tolunart.2095

tolunart.2095

This is how I feel, especially with the lopsided loot system. It’s not truly RNG when the same exact people do the same exact things and end up with wildly different if any loot at all. Like one person in a five man will have 9 items while another has 2 and the rest get junk. That’s not RNG that’s loot nerfing or loot manipulation and it’s only going to end when enough people become outraged about it.

Actually that sounds suspiciously similar to the definition of “random.” I’d be concerned if everyone got equal amounts of loot and the devs claimed it was random.

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Posted by: Sleepless.1906

Sleepless.1906

Great analysis of the situation. Thumbs up!

And ty for the TB quote. Despite which game you play, those forum fanbois are always there, doing exactly what TB says! That is literally exactly what I think of the situation, except worded by TB!

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Posted by: Fernling.1729

Fernling.1729

Man, that TB quote means a lot to me. It’s sad, but true. GW2 is one of the more guilty ones too imo.

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Posted by: Aeonblade.8709

Aeonblade.8709

Well said, Rather long but worth the read All we can do is keep letting them know how we feel.

Anarai Aeonblade [GASM] – Guardian – DB
RIP my fair Engi and Ranger, you will be missed.

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Posted by: Nimmi.1650

Nimmi.1650

Nice read. You have my thumbs up. :3

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Posted by: Sleepless.1906

Sleepless.1906

Man, that TB quote means a lot to me. It’s sad, but true. GW2 is one of the more guilty ones too imo.

idk, the WoW forums are pretty awful for it. and you need to have an active sub to post there, so the bias is incredibly in favour of the game.

Honestly, just making a post about something you dislike about the game will usually result in about 20 people abusing you.

Its a terrible practice that alienates non-fanboy players of the game, and like TB says, ultimately prevents the game from improving.

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Posted by: Maz.8604

Maz.8604

The RNG and these forums are awful

I don’t understand how a company can moderate their own forums in the way this company does… they have to realize that the people who volunteer to speak for Anet cost them serious money by driving people away…

I would buy lots of things from the cash shop…but not RNG items.

The quote from TotalBiscuit is great.

I looked forward to playing this game and have played since beta. Now, though i still have fun leveling alts and stuff I like to do, I’m looking and waiting for a different MMORP that is not so slimey.

Do you happen to have the link to his statement because I like listening to him on matters like this but I find his channel confusing when I search it.

Thanks in advance.

It’s in his The WarZ (also called The BoreZ) video. Even that game had people actively defending it when it launched.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Yeah the TB quote wasn’t about Guild Wars 2 fans…it was against fan boys in general. But then, there are as many trolls who post on forums to rile up fan boys as there are fan points. How many negative threads are actually troll posts?

I know people who post negative stuff on fan forums just to rile up the fan boys, even when they don’t believe what they’re saying.

Lying occurs on both sides of the fence…and so does honesty.

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Posted by: Fernling.1729

Fernling.1729

Man, that TB quote means a lot to me. It’s sad, but true. GW2 is one of the more guilty ones too imo.

idk, the WoW forums are pretty awful for it. and you need to have an active sub to post there, so the bias is incredibly in favour of the game.

Honestly, just making a post about something you dislike about the game will usually result in about 20 people abusing you.

Its a terrible practice that alienates non-fanboy players of the game, and like TB says, ultimately prevents the game from improving.

I always avoided those forums.
GW2 fans attack people everywhere. I’ve never seen it so bad among various “gaming” forums, including the youtube comment section. Reddit is especially bad too, you are not allowed to post anything unless its a praise there. If you do, it will be down voted into the ground.

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Posted by: Fernling.1729

Fernling.1729

Yeah the TB quote wasn’t about Guild Wars 2 fans…it was against fan boys in general.

Would it surprise you though? I’m pretty sure I remember him being blown away by the attacks of the GW2 community for not praising the game 100% in his youtube videos. I’ve never seen him have to address a specific fanbase in that manner.

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Posted by: Nimmi.1650

Nimmi.1650

Yeah the TB quote wasn’t about Guild Wars 2 fans…it was against fan boys in general.

Would it surprise you though? I’m pretty sure I remember him being blown away by the attacks of the GW2 community for not praising the game 100% in his youtube videos. I’ve never seen him have to address a specific fanbase in that manner.

Yea. He addressed the GW2 community when Jesse Cox gave his first impressions on the game and received a lot of backlash for it.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Yeah the TB quote wasn’t about Guild Wars 2 fans…it was against fan boys in general.

Would it surprise you though? I’m pretty sure I remember him being blown away by the attacks of the GW2 community for not praising the game 100% in his youtube videos. I’ve never seen him have to address a specific fanbase in that manner.

It wouldn’t surprise me, but the fan base at this time is quite different than it was at launch or before launch. And he made his comments about Guild Wars 2 fans who were reacting to what Jessie said, not him. And what Jessie said, at that time, was uniformed.

That said, the game is old enough where the rose-colored glasses are off. I’ve been called a white knight and a fan boy, but I still posted negative stuff about RNG and I’ve agreed with quite a few posts that have negative things in them. I’ve agreed we need an LFG tool, I’ve agreed we need more viable builds for many professions, I’ve agreed with a number of negative points.

The fact is, I object most to specific unverifiable claims, or people who want everything NOW. That’s are my pet peeves and I respond to them. But those who call me a fan boy, oddly, NEVER mention the times I say I agree with something negative said about Anet.

Seems suspiciously imbalanced to me.

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Posted by: Sleepless.1906

Sleepless.1906

Man, that TB quote means a lot to me. It’s sad, but true. GW2 is one of the more guilty ones too imo.

idk, the WoW forums are pretty awful for it. and you need to have an active sub to post there, so the bias is incredibly in favour of the game.

Honestly, just making a post about something you dislike about the game will usually result in about 20 people abusing you.

Its a terrible practice that alienates non-fanboy players of the game, and like TB says, ultimately prevents the game from improving.

I always avoided those forums.
GW2 fans attack people everywhere. I’ve never seen it so bad among various “gaming” forums, including the youtube comment section. Reddit is especially bad too, you are not allowed to post anything unless its a praise there. If you do, it will be down voted into the ground.

You are right, I’ve certainly noticed it on youtube. I don’t follow reddit though.

But some of the gaming commentators on youtube that I follow have complained that they feel like they can’t criticize GW2 due to all the fanboy comment spam.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

So are fan boys necessarily wrong? Or can you be a fan boy and be right sometimes too?

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Posted by: Heavencloud.5389

Heavencloud.5389

But of course the RNG is what is bombarding us as of late in an overgrowing trend. The whole shabang is set up beautifully.

Make normal farming impossible.
Make any desirable skin 50 times+ the price of an equivalent exotic, thus impossible.
Make people literally handicapped without resorting to the trading post for just about anything.

And then after the players are beaten down and tired, lure them towards your cash shop to spend what gold/money they may have left, on something that is set on a chance. But then again, what better way then gambling to induce and motivate an already stressed mind.

This was never like this in gw1. Let’s just see how long till this thread is taken down.

Cheers to the author

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Posted by: Sleepless.1906

Sleepless.1906

So are fan boys necessarily wrong? Or can you be a fan boy and be right sometimes too?

of course you can be a fanboy and sometimes be right. the complaint is about bombarding any criticism into non-existence, and a general hostility in the posting.

and I’m not talking about you here, I’m just explaining it as someone who criticizes every game he plays, for what he considers to be the greater good.

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Posted by: Fernling.1729

Fernling.1729

So are fan boys necessarily wrong? Or can you be a fan boy and be right sometimes too?

Of course they can. Problem is that they typically don’t do anything but talk about the good the game offers. It is 95% pointless to go into the forum and talk about the good(IMO!!!) I would rather see the fanboys focus on making the game better. There are a few that act as if the game is perfect, like Lordkrall and Karizee. That is not benefiting the game in anyway, especially when they white knight in every negative game to defend the holy GW2.

(edited by Fernling.1729)

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Posted by: Theftwind.8976

Theftwind.8976

It is but one business model in use currently by Game developers. Along with Guild Wars 2. I also play another F2P game, LotRO. Both games have a store, both games offer limited time items but there is a divergence. GW2 gives you the option of turning gold into gems to spend at the store, LotRO grants you points for achievements, etc. to be spent at the store. However GW2 relies more heavily on gambling then does LotRO. The latter offers their rare items in the store for points whereas GW2 offers you a CHANCE at those rare items for gems. Both games have lootboxes/chests requiring you to purchase keys.

Example:

In GW2 you can buy a RANDOM package of dyes in the hope you will get the one you are looking for. In LotRO the dyes are the dyes you see in the store. In GW2 you get a random package of dyes.

As the OP described one is flat rate, one is lottery.

It would be interesting to look at the financials of both companies and see which model A) Makes the most return, Retains customers.

Theftwind (HoD)

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Posted by: Heavencloud.5389

Heavencloud.5389

So are fan boys necessarily wrong? Or can you be a fan boy and be right sometimes too?

Of course they can. Problem is that they typically don’t do anything but talk about the good the game offers. It is 95% pointless to go into the forum and talk about the good(IMO!!!) I would rather see the fanboys focus on making the game better. There are a few that act as if the game is perfect, like Lordkrall and Karizee. That is not benefiting the game in anyway, especially when they white knight in every negative game to defend the holy GW2.

Most of such people don’t really have any grounds to base their statements upon. They are just desperately trying to justify submitting themselves to the hype that was the pre gw2 theme, and it is my belief that upon realizing the obvious shortcomings which we all do, they elected to remain in that state of mind. For the disappointed mindset is here on the forums, trying to be heard and make the game better.

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Posted by: Fernling.1729

Fernling.1729

Funny thing, I would likely buy some gear for a flat rate, I just hate the RNG crap. I learned my lesson very early on.

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Posted by: Jack of Tears.9458

Jack of Tears.9458

There are two on this very thread right now rather early in the reply process that consistantly take away from these complaints and attack them from all sides telling people they are completing wrong when they know that’s not true. They Know the game is as bad as people say it is in these areas yet they consistantly deny it. I dunno what their deal is but they need to let us vent and leave the honest well thought out well experienced by many complaints alone and stop trying to convince people everything is rainbows and unicorn farts in this game. Seriously.

This is a ridiculous statement, “we’re angry at the game and want to complain, so let us complain and keep quiet!”. Sorry Charlie but if you’re sayin’ something I don’t agree with, or you’re blowing something out of proportion, I’m gonna call ya out on it. You’ve decided the game is bad, so all you see is the bad. There are some things in the game that still need some ironing out, but they’re hardly game breaking and eventually they will get taken care of – just because it isn’t happening on your schedule doesn’t mean it isn’t going to happen.


I’m sorry I stepped outta yer box, don’ worry, if
ya whine enough they’ll put me right back.

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Posted by: Fernling.1729

Fernling.1729

[/quote]

There are some things in the game that still need some ironing out, but they’re hardly game breaking [/quote]

People are quitting the game left and right because of this. If that isn’t game breaking, what is?

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Posted by: Jack of Tears.9458

Jack of Tears.9458

People are quitting the game left and right because of this. If that isn’t game breaking, what is?

So it is for you, but isn’t for me or anyone I know personally who plays the game. There are always going to be people coming in and leaving MMOs because they like this, but not this – love this but hate this; it’s the nature of the beast. If, at some point they do something so awful that I can’t stand it, then I’ll leave too, but I’m just not seeing that yet.


I’m sorry I stepped outta yer box, don’ worry, if
ya whine enough they’ll put me right back.

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Posted by: George Steel.1804

George Steel.1804

Literally everything the OP said. With the system they’re using right now, I look at ANets business practices like a downright scam.

Platinum – Guardian
Technical Strength – Engineer
Dungeon Master – FotM 46

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Posted by: Jack of Tears.9458

Jack of Tears.9458

Incremental loot chance. The more you open, the higher your chance rises of receiving a drop from a certain tier until it drops then the chance for that tier is reset.

An additional token in every chest/crate. Once you have enough tokens you can turn it in for what you want.

These all sound like good ideas to me, hopefully someone from Anet will see it and pass it along.


I’m sorry I stepped outta yer box, don’ worry, if
ya whine enough they’ll put me right back.

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Posted by: darkace.8925

darkace.8925

If Abyss and Celestial dyes were both equally popular and both were released in the Gem Shop, one direct purchase for and one in a RNG box with the chances of getting less desirable dyes, I wonder which would make ArenaNet more money.

But even if the dye in the rng box earned more money, is the extra money enough to justify burning good will with the player base?

I understand businesses exist to make money, that’s a dumb point to bring up. No one here is begrudging ANet’s right to make money. But good will, even though it doesn’t show up on an earnings report, can certainly impact a company’s profitability. And the rng boxes burn a LOT of good will.

The devs have gone out of their way to give us a player-friendly game. But in this regard they’re doing the exact opposite. I don’t know if it’s external forces (NCSoft, Nexon, etc) that are forcing their hand, but it’s certainly not player-friendly.

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Posted by: Facepunch.5710

Facepunch.5710

Literally everything the OP said. With the system they’re using right now, I look at ANets business practices like a downright scam.

A scam, really? It said right in the patch notes that the crates will give weapon skins rarely. I guess I’m going to get infracted for this, but sometimes you just have to call a moron a moron.

And no, I don’t like that ANet is selling RNG, my calling you an idiot should not be interpreted as defending them.

Please take your tinfoil hats off and be reasonable. ~ReginaB
This forum is a wretched hive of scum and villainy. ~DevilLordLaser

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Posted by: Fluke.6875

Fluke.6875

I like this thread.

I am to a degree still a fanboy with my CE Rytlock sitting on my shelf, but I don’t like how this is RNG stuff is going and this thread is really succinct about this problem, I feel.

As a pet collector I was completely ready to go buy a gem card this past week to buy more with these young animals popping up for May (I’ve bought basically all the guaranteed pets/ pet packs released so far in the shop, the others via gold since I don’t like gambling on the 3-pet pack), but since they decided to RNG these new Lost Shores pets, I decided to not even bother since there is no way I’ll basically be able to reasonably obtain all the pets without tossing a ton of money at lady luck.

Even offering the boxes through non-gem methods isn’t foolproof – I worked my rear off during the karka event to craft as many of those RNG boxes as possible and didn’t get a pet out of a single one and was very disappointed. Had I been able to gather tokens to turn in through the boxes like someone mentioned, I would have felt that my mindless crafting would have had some real reward to work towards. I’m not even going to bother farming these boxes this go around.

Some of the options offered in this thread are not bad ideas and I hope ArenaNet listens.

(edited by Fluke.6875)

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Posted by: Villious.8530

Villious.8530

I really like this game. I love the graphics and much of the gameplay, but RNG is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth. It’s come to the point for me, GW2 is just a stop-gap until newer MMO’s are released.

It’s simple. Anet uses RNG on everything because it makes money. I think it was Vayne that said above, MMO’s are now big business. Big business is there to do one thing, and that’s make money. Lots of it! Yes, they must support the development, pay the employees, ect., but the primary focus is to put cash in the shareholders pockets. From what I’ve seen over the past six months of GW2’s evolution, figuring out how to do that is job 1…..period. I call it plain old fashioned greed. That’s just my 2 cents.

I still think that if the next release of AAA MMO’s are just as good as GW2 and use more customer focused business practices, then you’ll see the players leaving in droves. All the people I play with, are all just killing time waiting for that moment.

On a side note, I got an email from TRION today stating that Rift was going free to play with a cash shop.

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Posted by: JustTrogdor.7892

JustTrogdor.7892

It’s simple. Anet uses RNG on everything because it makes money. I think it was Vayne that said above, MMO’s are now big business. Big business is there to do one thing, and that’s make money. Lots of it! Yes, they must support the development, pay the employees, ect., but the primary focus is to put cash in the shareholders pockets. From what I’ve seen over the past six months of GW2’s evolution, figuring out how to do that is job 1…..period. I call it plain old fashioned greed. That’s just my 2 cents.

If you were a shareholder you wouldn’t think that. At least I hope not. Although they are on the Korean exchange so unless you live there it is hard to buy shares. I looked in to it.

Oh and I just looked the NCsoft shares took a pretty big leap the last few days.

The Burninator

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Posted by: Villious.8530

Villious.8530

It’s simple. Anet uses RNG on everything because it makes money. I think it was Vayne that said above, MMO’s are now big business. Big business is there to do one thing, and that’s make money. Lots of it! Yes, they must support the development, pay the employees, ect., but the primary focus is to put cash in the shareholders pockets. From what I’ve seen over the past six months of GW2’s evolution, figuring out how to do that is job 1…..period. I call it plain old fashioned greed. That’s just my 2 cents.

If you were a shareholder you wouldn’t think that. At least I hope not.

I doubt most shareholders care. They’re concerned about the size of the numbers on the checks they cash and how long those checks keep coming.

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Posted by: dinominator.9862

dinominator.9862

People who defend these practices want the games they play to succeed regardless of how the company in question behaves, because they have some investment. They either want the game to have more players, be more successful so it will stick around for a long time, get more development, release expansions, etc, etc.

It’s not fair to say that players who are not in the same bandwagon as you with regard to wanting to get rid of RNG item sales are motivated to turn a blind eye to unethical practices. That’s reaching too far, IMO.

I wager that most people who bought the game were hoping to be buying into a successful game. The game promised a subscription-free model, and that’s what we expect. We have to trust that the publisher can figure out the necessary monetization practices to keep it that way and we have to expect that they are out to maximize profit for themselves and their investors.

What I will agree on is that some people do have a gambling problem and that’s the only gray area where I think players have some good reason to criticize it.

But please don’t make a villain out of everyone that doesn’t agree with you by painting them as fanboys. That’s passive aggressive and weakens your persuasive essay.

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Posted by: JustTrogdor.7892

JustTrogdor.7892

I doubt most shareholders care. They’re concerned about the size of the numbers on the checks they cash and how long those checks keep coming.

Well of course. That is the purpose of investing. I’d hate to invest in a company that wasn’t trying to make money. Since Korea is a large part of the NCsoft market I am willing to wager that there are many investors playing as we speak.

The Burninator

(edited by JustTrogdor.7892)

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Posted by: Dante.1508

Dante.1508

The RNG and these forums are awful

I don’t understand how a company can moderate their own forums in the way this company does… they have to realize that the people who volunteer to speak for Anet cost them serious money by driving people away…

I would buy lots of things from the cash shop…but not RNG items.

The quote from TotalBiscuit is great.

I looked forward to playing this game and have played since beta. Now, though i still have fun leveling alts and stuff I like to do, I’m looking and waiting for a different MMORP that is not so slimey.

Good luck with that. Most MMOs I’ve played are more slimy than this.

You’re right they are more slimey, but they don’t try and hide it and say things like they did in manifesto and then do a 180 when the game is released, you know they are slimey and you live with it or don’t play their games…

What Anet did was lower than those others in my opinion..

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Posted by: Maz.8604

Maz.8604

People who defend these practices want the games they play to succeed regardless of how the company in question behaves, because they have some investment. They either want the game to have more players, be more successful so it will stick around for a long time, get more development, release expansions, etc, etc.

It’s not fair to say that players who are not in the same bandwagon as you with regard to wanting to get rid of RNG item sales are motivated to turn a blind eye to unethical practices. That’s reaching too far, IMO.

I wager that most people who bought the game were hoping to be buying into a successful game. The game promised a subscription-free model, and that’s what we expect. We have to trust that the publisher can figure out the necessary monetization practices to keep it that way and we have to expect that they are out to maximize profit for themselves and their investors.

What I will agree on is that some people do have a gambling problem and that’s the only gray area where I think players have some good reason to criticize it.

But please don’t make a villain out of everyone that doesn’t agree with you by painting them as fanboys. That’s passive aggressive and weakens your persuasive essay.

I never said that those not with me are villains. There are those that are apathetic one way or another. I refer specifically to those who shout down at the others fighting against RNG. Those who defend the practice.

Even your post just now. You expect the game to succeed, you want it to succeed. The question ultimately becomes under what conditions you want it to succeed. And what conditions are you willing to see it eschew maximizing profit to maintain some integrity.

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Posted by: JustTrogdor.7892

JustTrogdor.7892

I wont buy RNG ever. More Slots ok, Molten-Pickaxe great! but RNG chests??
Never.

Now see this makes more sense. He doesn’t like the RNG chests so he has decided not to buy them. That seems like the best way to deal with it in my mind. After all money does talk and if people stop buying the chests because they are unhappy with the model then the company will probably respond with a change. Imagine, supply and demand in action.

The Burninator