Guild Wars 2

Interesting topic and I fall into a pure economic view on it. If people do not support it, then it would fail.

If you are so dead set against the moral failings of RNG, or gambling as some have called it (I’m still not convinced it’s gambling…you always recieve something in the boxes…it might not be what you want, but you recieve something), why not call for a gamewide boycott of gem purchases for a x week period? The decrease in monthly income will show them! (probably not, but hey…what can you say…you tried!)

Or request a refund immediately upon finding out this ‘immoral activity’ was in place? Personally, I haven’t bought a single RNG item…nor will I pay for the privilege to do so. I know it’s a suckers game, even bigger and more obvious than a monthly subscription. I will play the game, buy things from the store that are obtainable outside the boxes, and enjoy the skins others wear because they had the luck of the draw to get them.

BTW….Isn’t a truly democratic system wonderful? Everyone that buys 1 key for a chest has the exact same chance as the next guy to get a great drop.

Roybe.5896:

Interesting topic and I fall into a pure economic view on it. If people do not support it, then it would fail.

If you are so dead set against the moral failings of RNG, or gambling as some have called it (I’m still not convinced it’s gambling…you always recieve something in the boxes…it might not be what you want, but you recieve something), why not call for a gamewide boycott of gem purchases for a x week period? The decrease in monthly income will show them! (probably not, but hey…what can you say…you tried!)

Or request a refund immediately upon finding out this ‘immoral activity’ was in place? Personally, I haven’t bought a single RNG item…nor will I pay for the privilege to do so. I know it’s a suckers game, even bigger and more obvious than a monthly subscription. I will play the game, buy things from the store that are obtainable outside the boxes, and enjoy the skins others wear because they had the luck of the draw to get them.

BTW….Isn’t a truly democratic system wonderful? Everyone that buys 1 key for a chest has the exact same chance as the next guy to get a great drop.

+100

The op is actually really well written, I’m still somewhat on the fence about the whle issue I’d prefer still if it were implemented differently.

Dante.1508:

You’re right they are more slimey, but they don’t try and hide it and say things like they did in manifesto and then do a 180 when the game is released, you know they are slimey and you live with it or don’t play their games…

What Anet did was lower than those others in my opinion..

I just reviewed the manifesto and didn’t find any reference to RNG. All they promised was “no monthly fees.” Where did you read that?

These lottery boxes are terrible! And I find it very discouraging to even log on with this current business practice for these events. I love these new weapon skins, if they were in the gem store I would probably buy at least 6 skins right now, but being they are sitting in an rng based chest, and my rng in this game since launch has been terrible at best it would be a complete waste of cash and or gold for me and would make me so angry that I would delete this game from my hard drive never to be played again.

I am all for ANet making money, they have a game with a solid foundation that could easily be successful for the next decade, and I hope to be here for the long haul. I know ANet wants these current weapon skins to be rare, and thats fine but what they don’t realize is that over time as more and more skins are created, and the flow of players new and old pass through, these skins will become very rare anyways so the current model defeats the purpose, all ANet is accomplishing right now is giving their current player base the feeling of being ripped off, and that will not play well in the long run.

I am a massive fanboy of guild wars, have always been, and probably always will be. But this RNG rubbish has got to slow down. I did not say stop because I think RNG does belong in some places but in the cash shop Ive had just about enough. Part of this is me getting burnt, of course, but also partly because month after month, without a noticable pattern, its RNG heavy and RNG light, the original Southsun Cove update sold chests that guaranteed you skins and everything, coming after the halloween one which was hard to get skins.

Fast forward 6 months or whatever and last month we had a repeat of halloween, coming after the super adventure box which was the first thing I can think of since launch where if you played the game, YOU COULD EARN REWARDS. only 2 things have been similar to this, the molten gloves and the backpieces in the newest patch. But most new cosmetic stuff for our guys have been locked away behind RNG. I have no issue with cash shop = cosmetic upgrades, hell probably the best way to do it, but it doesnt have to be the ONLY way. And it definately SHOULDNT be behind RNG. I bought the quiver because it looked cool. I spent $10 on gems, got EXACTLY what I wanted, and leftover gems to boot. If I wanted one of the new eyeball skins, I dont know how much Id have to spend, and that in a way is scary.

Sure theyre probably making a lot of money off the RNG and all the power to them, but 1 set of skins + 3 items as free fanservice in almost 9 months? the content is fun yes, but I and Im sure everybody else would like more to show for it than being able to fill newer players in as to what has happened plus some words under our names. Making us give you more money probably without reward is getting kind of old now.

Roybe.5896:

why not call for a gamewide boycott of gem purchases for a x week period?

I actually made a post yesterday (forget which exact thread) where I said that talking about it on the forums won’t change anything. I agree that an in-game response from players would be more effective. That would require a large number of players coming together for this cause, and that’s where we’d really see how much support and opposition there is.

Dante.1508:

Vayne.8563:

Mahaedros.7085:

The RNG and these forums are awful

I don’t understand how a company can moderate their own forums in the way this company does… they have to realize that the people who volunteer to speak for Anet cost them serious money by driving people away…

I would buy lots of things from the cash shop…but not RNG items.

The quote from TotalBiscuit is great.

I looked forward to playing this game and have played since beta. Now, though i still have fun leveling alts and stuff I like to do, I’m looking and waiting for a different MMORP that is not so slimey.

Good luck with that. Most MMOs I’ve played are more slimy than this.

You’re right they are more slimey, but they don’t try and hide it and say things like they did in manifesto and then do a 180 when the game is released, you know they are slimey and you live with it or don’t play their games…

What Anet did was lower than those others in my opinion..

Every single time you bring up the manifesto with regards to Anet lying you lose more and more credibility. There is precisely ONE LINE in the entire manifesto that anyone can really argue and that’s the “everyone you loved about Guild Wars 1 line”. The Manifesto is many paragraphs long and everything in everyone one of those paragraphs is part of this game.

You can keep bringing up how the manifesto misled people, which is misleading in itself. The manifesto didn’t say anything at all about vertical progression. It didn’t refer to gear grind. Everything said in the manifesto, except one line about everything you love about Guild Wars 1 (clearly a marketing line anyway) was true.

captaincrash.6528:

I am a massive fanboy of guild wars, have always been, and probably always will be. But this RNG rubbish has got to slow down. I did not say stop because I think RNG does belong in some places but in the cash shop Ive had just about enough. Part of this is me getting burnt, of course, but also partly because month after month, without a noticable pattern, its RNG heavy and RNG light, the original Southsun Cove update sold chests that guaranteed you skins and everything, coming after the halloween one which was hard to get skins.

Fast forward 6 months or whatever and last month we had a repeat of halloween, coming after the super adventure box which was the first thing I can think of since launch where if you played the game, YOU COULD EARN REWARDS. only 2 things have been similar to this, the molten gloves and the backpieces in the newest patch. But most new cosmetic stuff for our guys have been locked away behind RNG. I have no issue with cash shop = cosmetic upgrades, hell probably the best way to do it, but it doesnt have to be the ONLY way. And it definately SHOULDNT be behind RNG. I bought the quiver because it looked cool. I spent $10 on gems, got EXACTLY what I wanted, and leftover gems to boot. If I wanted one of the new eyeball skins, I dont know how much Id have to spend, and that in a way is scary.

Sure theyre probably making a lot of money off the RNG and all the power to them, but 1 set of skins + 3 items as free fanservice in almost 9 months? the content is fun yes, but I and Im sure everybody else would like more to show for it than being able to fill newer players in as to what has happened plus some words under our names. Making us give you more money probably without reward is getting kind of old now.

You left out the guild weapon skins and the SAB weapon skins you could get quite easily from your post. I agree that the BEST weapons have been locked away behind RNG but not all of them.

For all of you that want to buy all these skins direct consider this scenario.. They are all on the gem store buy direct. You can’t wait to get your elite new skin. You buy gems with money or (gold that you can earn in game at no cost other than time) get your skin and put it on. You head to LA and look around, everyone is wearing the same skin you have. Suddenly it doesn’t seem so special does it?

Vayne.8563:

captaincrash.6528:

I am a massive fanboy of guild wars, have always been, and probably always will be. But this RNG rubbish has got to slow down. I did not say stop because I think RNG does belong in some places but in the cash shop Ive had just about enough. Part of this is me getting burnt, of course, but also partly because month after month, without a noticable pattern, its RNG heavy and RNG light, the original Southsun Cove update sold chests that guaranteed you skins and everything, coming after the halloween one which was hard to get skins.

Fast forward 6 months or whatever and last month we had a repeat of halloween, coming after the super adventure box which was the first thing I can think of since launch where if you played the game, YOU COULD EARN REWARDS. only 2 things have been similar to this, the molten gloves and the backpieces in the newest patch. But most new cosmetic stuff for our guys have been locked away behind RNG. I have no issue with cash shop = cosmetic upgrades, hell probably the best way to do it, but it doesnt have to be the ONLY way. And it definately SHOULDNT be behind RNG. I bought the quiver because it looked cool. I spent $10 on gems, got EXACTLY what I wanted, and leftover gems to boot. If I wanted one of the new eyeball skins, I dont know how much Id have to spend, and that in a way is scary.

Sure theyre probably making a lot of money off the RNG and all the power to them, but 1 set of skins + 3 items as free fanservice in almost 9 months? the content is fun yes, but I and Im sure everybody else would like more to show for it than being able to fill newer players in as to what has happened plus some words under our names. Making us give you more money probably without reward is getting kind of old now.

You left out the guild weapon skins and the SAB weapon skins you could get quite easily from your post. I agree that the BEST weapons have been locked away behind RNG but not all of them.

Mentioned SAB but correct I did leave out the guild skins, apologies.

JustTrogdor.7892:

For all of you that want to buy all these skins direct consider this scenario.. They are all on the gem store buy direct. You can’t wait to get your elite new skin. You buy gems with money or (gold that you can earn in game at no cost other than time) get your skin and put it on. You head to LA and look around, everyone is wearing the same skin you have. Suddenly it doesn’t seem so special does it?

This is one of the reasons I stopped buying costumes in Guild Wars 1. It’s a valid point.

Maz.8604:

dinominator.9862:

Maz.8604:

People who defend these practices want the games they play to succeed regardless of how the company in question behaves, because they have some investment. They either want the game to have more players, be more successful so it will stick around for a long time, get more development, release expansions, etc, etc.

It’s not fair to say that players who are not in the same bandwagon as you with regard to wanting to get rid of RNG item sales are motivated to turn a blind eye to unethical practices. That’s reaching too far, IMO.

I wager that most people who bought the game were hoping to be buying into a successful game. The game promised a subscription-free model, and that’s what we expect. We have to trust that the publisher can figure out the necessary monetization practices to keep it that way and we have to expect that they are out to maximize profit for themselves and their investors.

What I will agree on is that some people do have a gambling problem and that’s the only gray area where I think players have some good reason to criticize it.

But please don’t make a villain out of everyone that doesn’t agree with you by painting them as fanboys. That’s passive aggressive and weakens your persuasive essay.

I never said that those not with me are villains. There are those that are apathetic one way or another. I refer specifically to those who shout down at the others fighting against RNG. Those who defend the practice.

Even your post just now. You expect the game to succeed, you want it to succeed. The question ultimately becomes under what conditions you want it to succeed. And what conditions are you willing to see it eschew maximizing profit to maintain some integrity.

You say that as if there is no validity in defending it. If RNG is the difference between continuing to have a subscription-free game with content updates of the same caliber vs. not, then that’s a good reason.

I’m not saying that’s the case because I don’t really know. In fact none of us do, but it’s food for thought.

I could make the argument that subscription games without RNG are even less fair. In those models I have already pre-paid for items that I may never get. Additionally, it takes time to get them which translates to money spent on game time. There’s even RNG built in because I have to keep doing dungeons and looting bosses etc. in hopes of getting something. Therefore even in games like WoW we were buying RNG items!

At least with the gemstore I have a choice about 1) what to buy, and 2) whether to spend more money or just time (gems with gold) since the price of the game was fixed.

JustTrogdor.7892:

For all of you that want to buy all these skins direct consider this scenario.. They are all on the gem store buy direct. You can’t wait to get your elite new skin. You buy gems with money or (gold that you can earn in game at no cost other than time) get your skin and put it on. You head to LA and look around, everyone is wearing the same skin you have. Suddenly it doesn’t seem so special does it?

That doesn’t bug me at all – I purchase skins because I want my toon to look how I want, not because I want to stand out.

As someone on youtube said the other day, what they need to be doing right now is dedicating a whole team to building a proper collection of skins for the store. That way you can hit more people’s tastes and increase the likelihood of sales. And once they’re there, don’t remove them! Keep them there for the sake of new players and altaholics (such as myself).

One of the problems with this game, imo, is that there just aren’t that many skins. Its unfair to compare, due to how long WoW has been around, but when they added transmog (changing armor appearance), we were absolutely spoiled for choice! I literally spent weeks solo’ing old raids to collect all the pieces I wanted.

JustTrogdor.7892:

For all of you that want to buy all these skins direct consider this scenario.. They are all on the gem store buy direct. You can’t wait to get your elite new skin. You buy gems with money or (gold that you can earn in game at no cost other than time) get your skin and put it on. You head to LA and look around, everyone is wearing the same skin you have. Suddenly it doesn’t seem so special does it?

Or we like the way a skin looks, and could care less who or how many people have it. There are three full armor set skins on the gem store. One for each type of armor. That’s it…..three. I see plenty other heavy armor wearers with the same skin I got off the gem shop. Guess what? I don’t care. I like it. I’m not one of those people that have to have a skin just because its rare or hard to get. I’m doing the southsun achievements to get the tentacle back piece. I like it. It seems tons of people have them, so what, I like it.

But we’re not being milked. You don’t have to use the shop to play. I don’t see how that makes me an “unemployed PR” – I actually enjoy GW2, I don’t post just to “make my purchase seem worthwhile”.

If you’re paying a sub that’s being milked. We pay for exactly as much or as little as we want to. If you don’t like the price of x you don’t have to pay for x.

That said I’d love it if everything was token based instead of specific drops though (Also like in firefall, where everything is crafted and items degrade). There’s so much on loot tables, when I get a rare drop its a 1/100 chance of it being useful :p.

Also caring about being a “SPECIAL UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE” and feeling bad when you’re not is so immature. Grow up.

Sleepless.1906:

JustTrogdor.7892:

For all of you that want to buy all these skins direct consider this scenario.. They are all on the gem store buy direct. You can’t wait to get your elite new skin. You buy gems with money or (gold that you can earn in game at no cost other than time) get your skin and put it on. You head to LA and look around, everyone is wearing the same skin you have. Suddenly it doesn’t seem so special does it?

As someone on youtube said the other day, what they need to be doing right now is dedicating a whole team to building a proper collection of skins for the store. That way you can hit more people’s tastes and increase the likelihood of sales. And once they’re there, don’t remove them! Keep them there for the sake of new players and altaholics (such as myself).

One of the problems with this game, imo, is that there just aren’t that many skins.

^
This!!! This a thousand times!!! Want me to spend real money in the cash shop? This!

JustTrogdor.7892:

For all of you that want to buy all these skins direct consider this scenario.. They are all on the gem store buy direct. You can’t wait to get your elite new skin. You buy gems with money or (gold that you can earn in game at no cost other than time) get your skin and put it on. You head to LA and look around, everyone is wearing the same skin you have. Suddenly it doesn’t seem so special does it?

You might buy a weapon or armor skin with the hopes it will make you a special little snowflake, but – and you may find this hard to believe – some people buy skins solely because they like the way they look. Not everyone thinks like you.

darkace.8925:

JustTrogdor.7892:

For all of you that want to buy all these skins direct consider this scenario.. They are all on the gem store buy direct. You can’t wait to get your elite new skin. You buy gems with money or (gold that you can earn in game at no cost other than time) get your skin and put it on. You head to LA and look around, everyone is wearing the same skin you have. Suddenly it doesn’t seem so special does it?

You might buy a weapon or armor skin with the hopes it will make you a special little snowflake, but – and you may find this hard to believe – some people buy skins solely because they like the way they look. Not everyone thinks like you.

That’s true, and not everyone thinks like me. There are a whole lot of people out there (I’m not one of them) who do care if what they have everyone else has. I think it’s silly personally, but I don’t think anyone can deny there’s a segment of the population, maybe even a large segment that does care about this.

It’s about standing out. I only care about how I look to me, but there are people out there who want to “wow” other people. A lot of people.

So yeah, it’s a valid concern.

emikochan.8504:

But we’re not being milked. You don’t have to use the shop to play. I don’t see how that makes me an “unemployed PR” – I actually enjoy GW2, I don’t post just to “make my purchase seem worthwhile”.

If you’re paying a sub that’s being milked. We pay for exactly as much or as little as we want to. If you don’t like the price of x you don’t have to pay for x.

That said I’d love it if everything was token based instead of specific drops though (Also like in firefall, where everything is crafted and items degrade). There’s so much on loot tables, when I get a rare drop its a 1/100 chance of it being useful :p.

Also caring about being a “SPECIAL UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE” and feeling bad when you’re not is so immature. Grow up.

Not to mention that one doesn’t have to spend cash to buy gems because you can buy gems with in game gold. To me that seems like an extra perk because if you work/grind hard enough you never have to pay a dime for the items other people are paying for. So after the initial purchase of the game, everyone has the same access to all aspects of the game free or at cost should you elect to pay cash.

I think there is a hidden message in some of this debate related to wanting everything for free because “NCsoft is greedy because they are trying to make money.” As mentioned by others simple solution, don’t spend money if you don’t want to. Supply and demand will dictate what is sold for real money.

darkace.8925:

You might buy a weapon or armor skin with the hopes it will make you a special little snowflake, but – and you may find this hard to believe – some people buy skins solely because they like the way they look. Not everyone thinks like you.

Not everyone thinks like you either. I imagine that there are many players that want skins that are different than most others. I know that if I got a drop off an RNG and then it was suddenly in the gem store at cost I would be a bit disappointed.

JustTrogdor.7892:

emikochan.8504:

But we’re not being milked. You don’t have to use the shop to play. I don’t see how that makes me an “unemployed PR” – I actually enjoy GW2, I don’t post just to “make my purchase seem worthwhile”.

If you’re paying a sub that’s being milked. We pay for exactly as much or as little as we want to. If you don’t like the price of x you don’t have to pay for x.

That said I’d love it if everything was token based instead of specific drops though (Also like in firefall, where everything is crafted and items degrade). There’s so much on loot tables, when I get a rare drop its a 1/100 chance of it being useful :p.

Also caring about being a “SPECIAL UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE” and feeling bad when you’re not is so immature. Grow up.

Not to mention that one doesn’t have to spend cash to buy gems because you can buy gems with in game gold. To me that seems like an extra perk because if you work/grind hard enough you never have to pay a dime for the items other people are paying for. So after the initial purchase of the game, everyone has the same access to all aspects of the game free or at cost should you elect to pay cash.

I think there is a hidden message in some of this debate related to wanting everything for free because “NCsoft is greedy because they are trying to make money.” As mentioned by others simple solution, don’t spend money if you don’t want to. Supply and demand will dictate what is sold for real money.

1. Not everyone can “work/grind hard enough”. We have the real life work/grind to put food on the table. Not enough time in the day.

2. Hidden message? Wanting everything for free? I’m seeing a lot of people that say they would pay (eagerly) real money for items in the gem store. I’m seeing a lot of people say they won’t pay for RNG. I’m seeing people say if you want to be greedy, you get nothing.
Trying to make a fair dollar and being greedy are two different things. I think you should stop looking for hidden messages.

dinominator.9862:

I just reviewed the manifesto and didn’t find any reference to RNG. All they promised was “no monthly fees.” Where did you read that?

Where did you read it the blog was taken down?

dinominator.9862:

I could make the argument that subscription games without RNG are even less fair. In those models I have already pre-paid for items that I may never get. Additionally, it takes time to get them which translates to money spent on game time. There’s even RNG built in because I have to keep doing dungeons and looting bosses etc. in hopes of getting something. Therefore even in games like WoW we were buying RNG items!

Strawman, and those games have token systems for all high level loot to overcome being unlucky in rolls anyway. GW2 does have tokens in some place but not where ever RNG is involved.

morrolan.9608:

dinominator.9862:

I just reviewed the manifesto and didn’t find any reference to RNG. All they promised was “no monthly fees.” Where did you read that?

Where did you read it the blog was taken down?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Design_Manifesto

and

JustTrogdor.7892:

emikochan.8504:

But we’re not being milked. You don’t have to use the shop to play. I don’t see how that makes me an “unemployed PR” – I actually enjoy GW2, I don’t post just to “make my purchase seem worthwhile”.

If you’re paying a sub that’s being milked. We pay for exactly as much or as little as we want to. If you don’t like the price of x you don’t have to pay for x.

That said I’d love it if everything was token based instead of specific drops though (Also like in firefall, where everything is crafted and items degrade). There’s so much on loot tables, when I get a rare drop its a 1/100 chance of it being useful :p.

Also caring about being a “SPECIAL UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE” and feeling bad when you’re not is so immature. Grow up.

Not to mention that one doesn’t have to spend cash to buy gems because you can buy gems with in game gold. To me that seems like an extra perk because if you work/grind hard enough you never have to pay a dime for the items other people are paying for. So after the initial purchase of the game, everyone has the same access to all aspects of the game free or at cost should you elect to pay cash.

I think there is a hidden message in some of this debate related to wanting everything for free because “NCsoft is greedy because they are trying to make money.” As mentioned by others simple solution, don’t spend money if you don’t want to. Supply and demand will dictate what is sold for real money.

Actually governments decide what is sold for real money in the long run.

Vayne.8563:

Every single time you bring up the manifesto with regards to Anet lying you lose more and more credibility. There is precisely ONE LINE in the entire manifesto that anyone can really argue and that’s the “everyone you loved about Guild Wars 1 line”. The Manifesto is many paragraphs long and everything in everyone one of those paragraphs is part of this game.

You’re being too literal to try and defend anet. The fact is the marketing with the manifesto and other blogs and articles emphasised anet as a company who cared about the players and who were making a game which emphasised the player experience above all else with fun as the overriding factor and none of the OCDness of other mmos.

The reality is totally different and the extreme RNG and gambling boxes is a part of it. This is why people are angry at anet, they bought into the marketing and trusted anet based on their rep with GW1. That trust was misplaced and anet have been revealed to be just like most other game makers and publishers.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

Every single time you bring up the manifesto with regards to Anet lying you lose more and more credibility. There is precisely ONE LINE in the entire manifesto that anyone can really argue and that’s the “everyone you loved about Guild Wars 1 line”. The Manifesto is many paragraphs long and everything in everyone one of those paragraphs is part of this game.

You’re being too literal to try and defend anet. The fact is the marketing with the manifesto and other blogs and articles emphasised anet as a company who cared about the players and who were making a game which emphasised the player experience above all else with fun as the overriding factor and none of the OCDness of other mmos.

The reality is totally different and the extreme RNG and gambling boxes is a part of it. This is why people are angry at anet, they bought into the marketing and trusted anet based on their rep with GW1. That trust was misplaced and anet have been revealed to be just like most other game makers and publishers.

I actually think mmo gamers are just as guilty as Anet for expecting a game that’s totally free. If so many gamers didn’t cry about paying 15 bucks a month for a sub we wouldn’t be stuck in an industry using these types of revenue generation. It won’t be long before every mmo is F2P with a cash shop set up this way.

If you want to see how bad RNG and gambling boxes are going to get log into neverwinter. The boxes that drop are spammed in chat.

JustTrogdor.7892:

darkace.8925:

You might buy a weapon or armor skin with the hopes it will make you a special little snowflake, but – and you may find this hard to believe – some people buy skins solely because they like the way they look. Not everyone thinks like you.

Not everyone thinks like you either. I imagine that there are many players that want skins that are different than most others. I know that if I got a drop off an RNG and then it was suddenly in the gem store at cost I would be a bit disappointed.

Exactly. A number of the players that I farm with have mentioned they are no longer interested in legendaries that are common. It works the same way with event skins. I’m not a big fan of RNG but at least the trickle-in rate from boxes keeps them rare. The one improvement I would like to see is for the skins to be tradable.

morrolan.9608:

The reality is totally different and the extreme RNG and gambling boxes is a part of it. This is why people are angry at anet, they bought into the marketing and trusted anet based on their rep with GW1. That trust was misplaced and anet have been revealed to be just like most other game makers and publishers.

Good lesson to learn. No one should expect a duck to quack like anything other than a duck.

Maz.8604:

…
TLDR: Ultimately, it boils down to the idea that the lottery boxes offer a better return on investment than just simply slapping a flat rate on the product. It adds nothing to the product itself and is just a method for increasing profits, without doing anything. It is a form of predation on consumers, it should not be tolerated, but there will always be people willing to defend a company’s decision either out of apathy, a belief it does not nor will ever affect them or some other selfish reason.

Glad to see this analysis eventually make it’s way to the official forums.

I’m not going to rehash the same posts I’ve made in similar threads, feel free to look at my posting history if there’s any interested.

However, I will say that while I don’t think anything said is inherently wrong, at the end it comes down to a critique in hopes of the the abandonment of an essential revenue stream.

Which is all well and good.

However, what is really needed is the proposition of a viable alternative, not more complaints, no matter how well said. I think it’s fair to say anyone who understands the practice is aware, to some degree, of what you’ve written.

What would be useful would be an alternative. Why not focus your efforts there?

I’d love to see you, or any other likeminded individual, offer an acceptable, reasonable alternative revenue stream for ANet to substitute for this practice you abhor.
.
I’ve yet to see a single such proposition backed up with any type of financial analysis.

Is it that you don’t realize the implications of taking away a viable revue stream from ANet? Or is that you just do care about the consequences?

Excellent OP and I agree pretty much completely.

The current system is appalling from a consumer side point of view and it will no doubt only become more prevalent and all intrusive in the coming weeks/months.

EDIT -

I see someone is asking for alternatives. There are clearly alternatives and several have been mentioned. But let’s face facts here, if the team sat down at the beginning of the project and could only see screwing people via RNG as a viable way of keeping the game alive, well to be brutally honest perhaps it should be allowed to die on it’s backside.

Mourningcry.9428:

Maz.8604:

…
TLDR: Ultimately, it boils down to the idea that the lottery boxes offer a better return on investment than just simply slapping a flat rate on the product. It adds nothing to the product itself and is just a method for increasing profits, without doing anything. It is a form of predation on consumers, it should not be tolerated, but there will always be people willing to defend a company’s decision either out of apathy, a belief it does not nor will ever affect them or some other selfish reason.

Glad to see this analysis eventually make it’s way to the official forums.

I’m not going to rehash the same posts I’ve made in similar threads, feel free to look at my posting history if there’s any interested.

However, I will say that while I don’t think anything said is inherently wrong, at the end it comes down to a critique in hopes of the the abandonment of an essential revenue stream.

Which is all well and good.

However, what is really needed is the proposition of a viable alternative, not more complaints, no matter how well said. I think it’s fair to say anyone who understands the practice is aware, to some degree, of what you’ve written.

What would be useful would be an alternative. Why not focus your efforts there?

I’d love to see you, or any other likeminded individual, offer an acceptable, reasonable alternative revenue stream for ANet to substitute for this practice you abhor.
.
I’ve yet to see a single such proposition backed up with any type of financial analysis.

Is it that you don’t realize the implications of taking away a viable revue stream from ANet? Or is that you just do care about the consequences?

Several alternatives have been mentioned during the duration of the thread, if you read the whole thing.

And to add one more… I don’t mind paying sub fees at all.

I’m very excited about both WildStar and ESO and both companies have said that they’re considering sticking to the sub model. And you know what? I hope they do.

Sleepless.1906:

And to add one more… I don’t mind paying sub fees at all.

I’m very excited about both WildStar and ESO and both companies have said that they’re considering sticking to the sub model. And you know what? I hope they do.

Well hey, those games will be there for you, and maybe they will launch with subscription models. WildStar looks kinda good to me too.

I personally wish that they wouldn’t, because then I would play them.

Sleepless.1906:

Several alternatives have been mentioned during the duration of the thread, if you read the whole thing.

And to add one more… I don’t mind paying sub fees at all.

I’m very excited about both WildStar and ESO and both companies have said that they’re considering sticking to the sub model. And you know what? I hope they do.

I did read the whole thread. All I saw were a few off the cuff suggestions. Not a shred of analysis. This doesn’t necessarily invalidate them, however, they’re far from convincing. And I’ve actually refuted similar suggestions else where, and don’t see the need to have do so again.

However, I will say the sub-model, while viable, was likely considered, and from their analysis , was determined to be inferior to their current model. And I too, have no issues with that model, for whatever that’s worth.

Ask yourself this: where in the world is it ok to promote gambling to teenagers?

GW2 is not an adult only game. It also does not matter how collectible card games and Kinder Surprise gets away with it. They are just as wrong. Nintendo learned that lesson hard and started to remove the slot machines from Pokemon in Europe, when they cam under fire for “promoting a false perception on gambling”. (You could only win more money by playing more Pokemon slotmachines, you never lost in the long run).

The damage ArenaNet is inviting is not so much of a financial nature but one of reputation.

Sleepless.1906:

And to add one more… I don’t mind paying sub fees at all.

I’m very excited about both WildStar and ESO and both companies have said that they’re considering sticking to the sub model. And you know what? I hope they do.

Me too, GW2 has shown me that the sub model is preferable.

FourthVariety.5463:

The damage ArenaNet is inviting is not so much of a financial nature but one of reputation.

As far as I’m concerned thats gone already.

Mourningcry.9428:

Sleepless.1906:

Several alternatives have been mentioned during the duration of the thread, if you read the whole thing.

And to add one more… I don’t mind paying sub fees at all.

I’m very excited about both WildStar and ESO and both companies have said that they’re considering sticking to the sub model. And you know what? I hope they do.

I did read the whole thread. All I saw were a few off the cuff suggestions. Not a shred of analysis. This doesn’t necessarily invalidate them, however, they’re far from convincing. And I’ve actually refuted similar suggestions else where, and don’t see the need to have do so again.

However, I will say the sub-model, while viable, was likely considered, and from their analysis , was determined to be inferior to their current model. And I too, have no issues with that model, for whatever that’s worth.

You don’t have to run 8 year financial forecasts to realise that there are alternatives to funding a game other than through RNG cash shop.

If though you have refuted all of these alternatives already whilst going on about analysis, well one assumes you have run the numbers yourself. Could you perhaps provide your growth/performance forecast comparisons for us?

Well, I am all for ArenaNet making money, and since ArenaNet are the only ones with actually money it would seem like the RNG-skins in the store are making them the most money (they have, after all, tried different things, but keep coming back to this version), no matter how a few forumers feel about it.

ArenaNet are business, they need to make money. Don’t like it? Don’t give them money, just be happy that someone does, or we would be staring at a game closing down quite fast.

Fenrir.3609:

You don’t have to run 8 year financial forecasts to realise that there are alternatives to funding a game other than through RNG cash shop.

If though you have refuted all of these alternatives already whilst going on about analysis, well one assumes you have run the numbers yourself. Could you perhaps provide your growth/performance forecast comparisons for us?

I obviously don’t have that information. I specifically asked for anaylsis, not proof. Even some simple theoretical analysis would lend some indication of a proposed alternative. My point is that a lot of these suggestions don’t lend to even a partial understanding of the finances involved. Some base case examples would at least lend to a deeper discussion, as opposed to half-baked suggestions.

Here’s an example of what i’m asking for:

Mourningcry.9428:

Just some quick, very basic, off the cuff calcs to kind of paint the picture of what some of you are asking for.
What’s the value of one of these weapon skins? Let’s say there are 1million players. Of those, some (like so many here) won’t buy gems (they’ll convert gold, or abstain), and there are others that simply don’t want them. So, let’s say, half of those players are willing to make a single, one time purchase.

500,000 * $10 = $5,000,000 = 400,000,000 gems

At 125gems/key, they get 6 tries.

500,000 * 6 = 3,000,000 tries

Let’s be generous and set the drop rate for a skin @ 1%

3,000,000 * 1% = 30,000 weapons skins dropped

400,000,000 / 30,000 = 13,333 gems is the value of 1 skin

I would even go so far as to say these are very generous assumptions (only one gem purchase per player and a 1% drop rate) Feel free to tweak it as you like, but you’ll get the idea.

Now, you want to propose to offer them up for 800 gems. Ok. Well, 800 gems is pretty cheap. I would venture that most players would just as well convert gold to gems and get them that way.

But then, as the rate becomes less favorable,some players are going to start complaining about that (happens every time). So, now, you’ve just shifted discontent from the RNG haters, to the exchange rate haters. And they’re distaste for purchasing gems for cash is arguably just as valid as the RNG haters distaste.

Is that such an unreasonable request?

FourthVariety.5463:

Ask yourself this: where in the world is it ok to promote gambling to teenagers?

GW2 is not an adult only game. It also does not matter how collectible card games and Kinder Surprise gets away with it. They are just as wrong. Nintendo learned that lesson hard and started to remove the slot machines from Pokemon in Europe, when they cam under fire for “promoting a false perception on gambling”. (You could only win more money by playing more Pokemon slotmachines, you never lost in the long run).

The damage ArenaNet is inviting is not so much of a financial nature but one of reputation.

Rated Teen. 18 can buy lottery tickets in NY.
Gambling that is legal for all ages:

Tattoo sticker games
8+ Various MMO in game lotteries
Gum ball machines
School raffles

The list goes on and on. Real life is a gamble in just about anything you do, at any age. This argument about “teen gambling” is getting old. Just about every MMO has this, I find it far less life changing than beating hookers in trunks, killing stereotypical middle eastern people with rocket launchers, seriously…

With all that out there on TV and in video games, if you think a silly “optional” box that is nothing but “optional” content that GARAUNTEES ((SOMETHING)) will drop, I really don’t see why THIS of all things bothers you and others. Seriously people will complain about anything. Read CNN for 1 week and tell me RNG lottery in GW2 is the hottest most disturbing topic that people need to go into such great detail about..

The manifesto argument is just as ridiculous. Name a game that gave you their entire business plan for 1 year and did every single aspect without changing anything whatsoever. And then remove any games that introduced something players didn’t like and kept it in game. Then go to that final game, if it exists, and stop bickering over some silly video that was for advertisement value. People really need to understand how commercials and advertising works before blowing off steam at a company. I’m going to go yell at dawn dish soap because my hands don’t look as nice and healthy as the models on the commercial after washing dishes for 20 minutes..

Fenrir.3609:

You don’t have to run 8 year financial forecasts to realise that there are alternatives to funding a game other than through RNG cash shop.

Can you explain what those alternatives are, and what makes them better than selling random cosmetic items?

I can’t think of any myself.

AntiGw.9367:

Fenrir.3609:

You don’t have to run 8 year financial forecasts to realise that there are alternatives to funding a game other than through RNG cash shop.

Can you explain what those alternatives are, and what makes them better than selling random cosmetic items?

I can’t think of any myself.

Maybe they would rather pay for the living content which is released pretty much every month :P But oh wait.. then we would just be paying subs ^^

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

Every single time you bring up the manifesto with regards to Anet lying you lose more and more credibility. There is precisely ONE LINE in the entire manifesto that anyone can really argue and that’s the “everyone you loved about Guild Wars 1 line”. The Manifesto is many paragraphs long and everything in everyone one of those paragraphs is part of this game.

You’re being too literal to try and defend anet. The fact is the marketing with the manifesto and other blogs and articles emphasised anet as a company who cared about the players and who were making a game which emphasised the player experience above all else with fun as the overriding factor and none of the OCDness of other mmos.

The reality is totally different and the extreme RNG and gambling boxes is a part of it. This is why people are angry at anet, they bought into the marketing and trusted anet based on their rep with GW1. That trust was misplaced and anet have been revealed to be just like most other game makers and publishers.

This is simply untrue.

I defend the manifesto because it is the single thing most people bring up.. The most viewed, most influential piece of advertising that Anet has done and, for the most part, it remains true.

Then we get into the "other’ areas of how they advertised the game. Now I saw all the same ads everyone else did. Read the same interviews. There are two or three times that Anet HAS changed direction, but anyone who says that player first means they won’t make money, anyone who says the cash shop was not supposed to be part of how the game funded itself, anyone who thinks that fun is objective instead of subjective is someone I wouldn’t argue this with anyway.

With the exception of introducing “some” vertical progression (done after launch and at the request of many players who find THAT fun) just about everything else they advertised is here. They gave me a game for $60 bucks that I didn’t have to spend money in the gem store to enjoy. I’ve gotten more than my money’s worth from this game and yes, I find it fun.

People like to talk about Anet’s advertising and how Anet lied. Anet has been honest with us all along. They HAVE made some changes, but that’s true for every MMO. People who claim they said we’d matter and we don’t are trying to talk for everyone.

What about the people who DID want something like the fractals when it was introduced. They were listened to. Anet cared about them.

Whenever a game company makes a choice to include something, there’s always a segment of the population who says, Anet didn’t listen to me so their advertising campaign is false. Well, maybe, just maybe, they cared enough about the player to make the best changes for the game, instead of not making those changes and watching the game die. Because I’m pretty sure if the Fractals didn’t come out when they did, we’d have major problems. Problems we don’t have now.

And yes, we’ve had other problems because they came out, but that doesn’t mean Anet was wrong. And it sure as hell doesn’t mean they don’t care. They simply made an unpopular decisions that they said they knew would be unpopular. The only reason any game maker does this is because it will benefit the game. You may not agree,but it doesn’t mean Anet doesn’t care about its fans.

Do people get all bothered about card packs? That’s what RNG boxes are. RNG boxes are not slot machines, Texas-hold-‘em tables, lotteries or raffles. They’re kittening baseball/M:tG cards.

If you don’t like RNG boxes (as I don’t), then don’t buy them (as I won’t). Posts like these will not change the minds of the monetization crew at ANet. More importantly, it won’t change the minds of the people buying the RNG boxes — and they’re why these things keep showing up.

And as far as people who oppose certain positions, you’re over-analyzing. Many posters post in opposition for one simple reason. It’s ingrained in the human ego to want to think that we’re right, and nothing makes people feel more right than pointing out where others are wrong. This is nothing new, and the whole “Whatever happened to gamers looking out for gamers?” is remarkably disingenuous for suggesting that it was ever different. There are, of course, exceptions to everything, but as a general trend, no. Now, I’m not condoning the behavior, but the pseudo psycho-analysis is wrong.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Do people get all bothered about card packs? That’s what RNG boxes are. RNG boxes are not slot machines, Texas-hold-‘em tables, lotteries or raffles. They’re kittening baseball/M:tG cards.

If you don’t like RNG boxes (as I don’t), then don’t buy them (as I won’t). Posts like these will not change the minds of the monetization crew at ANet. More importantly, it won’t change the minds of the people buying the RNG boxes — and they’re why these things keep showing up.

And as far as people who oppose certain positions, you’re over-analyzing. Many posters post in opposition for one simple reason. It’s ingrained in the human ego to want to think that we’re right, and nothing makes people feel more right than pointing out where others are wrong. This is nothing new, and the whole “Whatever happened to gamers looking out for gamers?” is remarkably disingenuous for suggesting that it was ever different. There are, of course, exceptions to everything, but as a general trend, no. Now, I’m not condoning the behavior, but the pseudo psycho-analysis is wrong.

Do you know the difference between baseball cards and this?

No one knows when looking at someone else on the street exactly what baseball cards they got. But everyone can see that you have a fused greatsword. lol

Mourningcry.9428:

Is that such an unreasonable request?

Is asking for more in depth detail an unreasonable request? Well no, clearly not although I would point out that throwing random numbers about (pardon the pun) is not the greatest idea in the world.

Switching model from RNG to fixed (as many as suggesting) is clearly going to involve delicate balancing and could potentially lead to a reduction in income due to the reasons stated in the example you quoted. However, the question is would said potential reduction in income make the game suddenly unviable? Are people suggesting that RNG centric cash shops are the only method of making a profit?

The company/ies involved will have sat down at the beginning of the project and looked at what they already had experience in (in terms of revenue generation models), where they thought the industry was going and which model would generate the most cash for them. As any good company would.

Now the system they have in place may generate the very best bottom line for ANET, great! That though does not mean that it is the best system for the consumer. And no, before anyone goes there, squeezing an additonal n% out of the consumer does not always equate to an additonal n% of quality or content back to the consumer.

Some people are not getting their knickers in a twist because a company is making money, they are getting their knickers in a twist because they perceive that the company is utilizing a model which is there purely to squeeze every single last drop out of them, when there are potentially alternative systems which would be far more “open” to the customer whilst at the same time still being viable for the company.

Fenrir.3609:

Switching model from RNG to fixed (as many as suggesting) is clearly going to involve delicate balancing and could potentially lead to a reduction in income due to the reasons stated in the example you quoted. However, the question is would said potential reduction in income make the game suddenly unviable? Are people suggesting that RNG centric cash shops are the only method of making a profit?

Agreed, and I don’t have the answer….

Mourningcry.9428:

/snip
So, that kind of dovetails back into the individual pricing problem. What’s the least you can charge for one of those items without risking losing too much revenue to gold to gem conversion, while at the same time, making it high enough to not exceed the market’s valuation of that item. I dunno.

“Moving on.”

Fenrir.3609:

The company/ies involved will have sat down at the beginning of the project and looked at what they already had experience in (in terms of revenue generation models), where they thought the industry was going and which model would generate the most cash for them. As any good company would.

Now the system they have in place may generate the very best bottom line for ANET, great! That though does not mean that it is the best system for the consumer. And no, before anyone goes there, squeezing an additonal n% out of the consumer does not always equate to an additonal n% of quality or content back to the consumer.

Some people are not getting their knickers in a twist because a company is making money, they are getting their knickers in a twist because they perceive that the company is utilizing a model which is there purely to squeeze every single last drop out of them, when there are potentially alternative systems which would be far more “open” to the customer whilst at the same time still being viable for the company.

Agreed, again. I’ve stated many times that I don’t feel the current method is at all optimal for the consumer. That being said, while it may initially appear I’m defending the current method, I really would love to hear viable, well thought out alternatives, and not simply “No more RNG.”. It gets tiresome, and leads no where.

Edit:

Is asking for more in depth detail an unreasonable request? Well no, clearly not although I would point out that throwing random numbers about (pardon the pun) is not the greatest idea in the world.

Agreed, random numbers would be bad. But rational estimations are a different story. The numbers I provided are based on reasonable, conservative assumptions (~3million box sales a conservative estimate of 1million active players, the rest are self explanatory). When lacking actual data, reasonable assumptions can at least be indicative of a theoretical feasible premise. Decisive, accurate? No. But reasonable? For discussion purposes, sure, why not?

The problem here isn’t with the promotion of Gem based RNG chests. The real problem is the players who are obsessed with getting rare virtual items through RNG. But there’s a simple solution to this, and many other people have said this: If you don’t want to spend real money on the chests, don’t buy them with real money.

There’s nothing morally wrong (or illegal) for a company to offer a product that has a built in RNG mechanic. Having the nice skin isn’t required to play this game. If this game were free to play, but then it required players to purchase a special key to finish the game, then you’d have reason to complain.

AntiGw.9367:

Fenrir.3609:

You don’t have to run 8 year financial forecasts to realise that there are alternatives to funding a game other than through RNG cash shop.

Can you explain what those alternatives are, and what makes them better than selling random cosmetic items?

I can’t think of any myself.

From a consumer point of view? Well (sticking to non sub options) selling fixed rate items is one obvious alternative. What makes that better than RNG boxes? Clarity for the consumer and the ability for them to make more informed value judgements.

Is that better from a company side stand point? Well as long as people are still willing to pay for the RNG version, probably not.