Guild Wars 2

This is what I think that’s going on:
Frist, using the Wintersday by putting items directly on gem store. They found out that the profit is lower than the RNG chests.

But if that was the case. They are stupid, and I hope not. Even though they sold it directly, but if I recall, they are not exactly attractive. I guess only a few actually bought it. I too was happy to know that they were available until I saw the actual thing.

Another possibility is that this is the 2nd test:
So they can compare it with the Wintersday patch. Though I don’t think they should be compare to each other. I mean, come on…………
Winter weapons vs. Fused weapons, really?

Future plans:
I have a feeling that they will likely be continued as RNG chest only items. Yes, awesome stuffs and skin are only available in BL chest. But to please those wanting to do direct purchase through gem store, they will put on two or three useless town cloth/minis once awhile. This is all too familiar with the Nexon MMO’s I’m playing. This is perhaps a trend in online gaming industry.

Tken.1986:

This is what I think that’s going on:
Frist, using the Wintersday by putting items directly on gem store. They found out that the profit is lower than the RNG chests.

But if that was the case. They are stupid, and I hope not. Even though they sold it directly, but if I recall, they are not exactly attractive. I guess only a few actually bought it. I too was happy to know that they were available until I saw the actual thing.

Another possibility is that this is the 2nd test:
So they can compare it with the Wintersday patch. Though I don’t think they should be compare to each other. I mean, come on…………
Winter weapons vs. Fused weapons, really?

Future plans:
I have a feeling that they will likely be continued as RNG chest only items. Yes, awesome stuffs and skin are only available in BL chest. But to please those wanting to do direct purchase through gem store, they will put on two or three useless town cloth/minis once awhile. This is all too familiar with the Nexon MMO’s I’m playing. This is perhaps a trend in online gaming industry.

I have 3 fused skins. I also have wintersday skins. You know what? I actually like the wintersday (direct purchase) weapons better. One of the reasons is their subtle beauty. The other, more important reason: I almost feel dirty using the fused skins. I feel having been suckered into a trap, regardless of the fact that I managed to get them by using far less keys than others. Keys shouldn’t have been necessary in the first place. The OP hits it straight home with his post.

Anet is the new EA omg.

I just wish they would put the weapon ticket in the gem store as a guaranteed item. If they still want to leave the rng cash boxes in, run them both at the same time. It can’t possibly hurt anything to run both at the same time.

skullmount.1758:

I just wish they would put the weapon ticket in the gem store as a guaranteed item. If they still want to leave the rng cash boxes in, run them both at the same time. It can’t possibly hurt anything to run both at the same time.

I’m not sure this is true. Mind you, I hope they do this, but if you can get a guaranteed ticket for a price, why would anyone buy the RNG box with only a chance of getting a ticket? I think this would make less money for the company over all.

On the other hand, I’m not sure that making money should be the only consideration.

Vayne.8563:

skullmount.1758:

I just wish they would put the weapon ticket in the gem store as a guaranteed item. If they still want to leave the rng cash boxes in, run them both at the same time. It can’t possibly hurt anything to run both at the same time.

I’m not sure this is true. Mind you, I hope they do this, but if you can get a guaranteed ticket for a price, why would anyone buy the RNG box with only a chance of getting a ticket? I think this would make less money for the company over all.

On the other hand, I’m not sure that making money should be the only consideration.

Because there’s always gonna be gamblers. I figure they’ll still buy the kitten rng boxes, just for the hope that they get more than the one they’d get by buying the ticket outright. For example the new consortium chest. You get 10 for 1200 gems, which means 10 chances to get up to 10 of the weapon tickets, where as if they also offered the ticket for a flat 600 (like previous weapon skins). I’m sure there would still be people buying the 10 chests just for the hopes that they get more than 2 (well two in this case since you could get 2 tickets for the same price) of the tickets.

skullmount.1758:

Vayne.8563:

skullmount.1758:

I just wish they would put the weapon ticket in the gem store as a guaranteed item. If they still want to leave the rng cash boxes in, run them both at the same time. It can’t possibly hurt anything to run both at the same time.

I’m not sure this is true. Mind you, I hope they do this, but if you can get a guaranteed ticket for a price, why would anyone buy the RNG box with only a chance of getting a ticket? I think this would make less money for the company over all.

On the other hand, I’m not sure that making money should be the only consideration.

Because there’s always gonna be gamblers. I figure they’ll still buy the kitten rng boxes, just for the hope that they get more than the one they’d get by buying the ticket outright. For example the new consortium chest. You get 10 for 1200 gems, which means 10 chances to get up to 10 of the weapon tickets, where as if they also offered the ticket for a flat 600 (like previous weapon skins). I’m sure there would still be people buying the 10 chests just for the hopes that they get more than 2 (well two in this case since you could get 2 tickets for the same price) of the tickets.

Maybe. And maybe Anet will take a month or two break from this because of the comments on the forum (but I doubt it). I mean if tons of people are buying this stuff and those complaining are truly in the minority…I’m not sure what I feel about that.

I think I wish people would wise up sometimes and not support this kind of practice. But it’s up hill and against the wind for us, I fear.

JustTrogdor.7892:

tigirius.9014:

Actually no not when it happens the same exact way every single time these activities take place and with the same people involved and that’s why it’s lopsided not random.

The only thing that predicts frequency of a random result is the percentage set for the random mechanic itself and even then it is a prediction. For example flipping a coin you can predict that it will be heads 5 times out of ten because it is 50/50. You can flip that coin 10 times and get heads 1 maybe three times or even all ten times. Given your argument if you and 9 of your friends buy 10 lottery tickets a day and don’t win but 1 guy buys one lottery ticket for the first time ever and wins, it isn’t random.

Started with the point of the coin , but then went to the lottery which are of such different odds that it defeats the grouping.

If a person were to flip a coin 100 times and get heads 95 times out of 100, chances are they would suspect the coin rigged/false/etc. The lottery is much different b/c the odds lead to expectations of loss. This is the very same when a casino will focus in on a craps table when a player is winning a disproportionate amount compared to the odds.

Plz excuse the randomness pf the post as I am rather hungover atm, but the point remains.

Vayne.8563:

Maybe. And maybe Anet will take a month or two break from this because of the comments on the forum (but I doubt it). I mean if tons of people are buying this stuff and those complaining are truly in the minority…I’m not sure what I feel about that.

I think I wish people would wise up sometimes and not support this kind of practice. But it’s up hill and against the wind for us, I fear.

Don’t fight human nature. In this case, it begins with “it’s only a few bucks, and I feel lucky.” Then, “well I’ll give it another shot, I can afford it,” and ends with “I’ve already spent (amount) so I might as well keep trying until I get it.”

People like a bargain – getting something rare and sought after almost for free. And people don’t like to walk away empty handed – keep trying until you get it.

So some people are going to get lucky and get it cheap, while others are going to spend as much as they have to to get it. You can discuss whether this is good or bad until your fingers fall off, but human nature is not going to change.

I hate the RNG boxes for temporary content, but I don’t hate temporary availability. I wouldn’t want weapons to be available forever simply because it’s nice to have some rare items in the game.

But, having the only method of availability be the RNG boxes really sucks for people who have a strong desire for a particular item. During Wintersday I really wanted a festive golem. I spent my allotted money and did not get it. I got all of the others, I got Festivoo, but there was absolutely no way for me to get the one that I wanted most without spending more than my budgeted amount. I resent that; it’s tainted further dealings with the gem store.

I sometimes buy Black Lion Keys, but I don’t plan to ever buy again them while there are “special” items in them, and I don’t expect to purchase any RNG boxes for events.

I thought it was kinda cool that the boxes can drop from anything in Southsun.^^ What i din expect was that the drop rate would be between 1/50-1/100 for a single weapon skin token.

So basically you need 12,000 gems for a chance at 1 weaponskin token. Thanks Anet, but i’ll keep my $150 <.<

Laii.2780:

I thought it was kinda cool that the boxes can drop from anything in Southsun.^^ What i din expect was that the drop rate would be between 1/50-1/100 for a single weapon skin token.

So basically you need 12,000 gems for a chance at 1 weaponskin token. Thanks Anet, but i’ll keep my $150 <.<

Not to mention the “rare drop off of mobs” is probably like one to two boxes for the entire event if you do nothing but kill Southsun mobs for the next month.

If this is true and there are now RNG boxes on sale I’m very disappointed. This is what crappy games like SWTOR have to pull on their audience because they have no confidence in the quality of their game to attract customers. GW2 is too good for crap like this, you are cheapening your name in exchange for a few quick bucks. Very disappointed because I thought you knew better.

We don’t have the statistics behind Anet’s yield, nor do we know their budget and limitations etc.

The point is that every one of these “complain about RNG threads” forgets about the obvious: gold can be used to obtain gems.

That is precisely why Anet has to compromise and find ways to maintain the system, otherwise there’s no incentive to give up your cash when you can clearly just farm gold to get shop items. So Anet creates limited time offers and RNG to help manage that threat.

To all of those who say they’ll pay real money if they knew exactly what they’d get… you’re full of it, that or you make up the minority.

Think about this…

Why would Anet release the first Quaggan backpack as a standalone item to purchase and yet throw the next releases in RNG? I’m willing to bet that when they released that first backpack, many people said kitten it and just farmed CoF and got it that way.

Standalone items probably don’t cut it thanks to the gold/gem transfer system.

So the real solution is:

1. Remove the gold/gem transfer system.
or
2. Deal with it.

Blackmoon.6837:

The point is that every one of these “complain about RNG threads” forgets about the obvious: gold can be used to obtain gems.

I don’t think i’ve seen one person complain about the real money cost to obtain these boxes, It’s the nature of the rng in itself. I think you might be in the wrong place with your answer.

This is an amazing post.
There is just ONE part of it I’m not 100% on.
The limited time offers. Now hear me out on this! I’m not exactly defending this practice, but I can see how it might benifit me, particularly in the way GW2 is structured.
Because there are limited time events and items (Living story, Lost shores, Molten pickaxe etc.) players who stop playing the game for whatever reason may feel compelled to return and check in on GW2 more often.
It is an underhanded practice, but it’s one of thoese “The end justifies the means” arguments.
An MMO needs a large active playerbase to function. Many go down the rotue of the subscription fee to help keep players invested in their MMO. Others use the neverending requirement to grind for more levels or better items to stay competative. Many do both.
If you, for example, left WoW during vanilia, and them came back in cataclysm you will have missed out on lots of “limted time content.” Sure you could go and play through Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King but the experiance would be nothing compared to what it had been like when that content was current.
Also it helps enforce Arenanets choice to allow us to transfer gold for gems. If a player does not have and cannot farm up the gold he needs for an item he will ahve to either go without the item or purchase gems with real world currancy. What’s that? He should have farmed up lots of gold in advance? That’s exactly what I wanted to hear! If he was to do that he’d have to play reguarly to keep his supply of gold in check, and the more people that do that = the more people playing the game.
I don’t have a perfect soltuion to trying to keep players activley interested and playing your product without resorting to these sort of ‘unherhanded’ measures but I do consider Arenanets aprach the lesser of two evils.
Other then that I agree with everything else and really enjoyed reading this post. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

Laii.2780:

I thought it was kinda cool that the boxes can drop from anything in Southsun.^^ What i din expect was that the drop rate would be between 1/50-1/100 for a single weapon skin token.

So basically you need 12,000 gems for a chance at 1 weaponskin token. Thanks Anet, but i’ll keep my $150 <.<

Mega millions anyone? The lottery is the same way except no mats come back in return.

What the hell forced the Arenanet company to rely on RNG anyway? what happened to developing a smaller RNG based on the species of what we killed… if anything the RNG needs a rework based on a family tree. i have yet to see a dev reply to the first posts…

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

What the hell forced the Arenanet company to rely on RNG anyway? what happened to developing a smaller RNG based on the species of what we killed… if anything the RNG needs a rework based on a family tree. i have yet to see a dev reply to the first posts…

Anet will never respond to any of these posts about RNG (lottery) Boxes (these posts have been around since the introduction of the Black Lion Chest, and they still haven’t given a response). There is nothing they can say at all that will make any of this better, so they keep quiet about it. They just ignore it and concentrate on other things instead. We the players already know why they do it, and why they will continue to do it, regardless of how much the community hates it.

It’s obvious. No post from Anet is going to change that.

well, only way to deal with it then is to grit our teeth and accept it/ stop playing the game and develop one that would woop Guild Wars 2’s kitten #8230;i do not see that happening for a long while. i mean dont get me wrong still a great game, but as it matures they should learn from these posts…not ignore them unless they want all suggestions for them to make MORE money/improvements will just STOP pouring in. our input makes them money if you think about the ideas that ARE USED from our posts, if they don’t take advice eventually theyll have to come up with it themselves..

game is still maturing, it JUST got done with splits for pve and pvp so that definatly says they are still tidying up.

saying one thing needs fixed first is like talking to a brick wall.
and saying they would be better off fixing RNG is like a child telling an adult that they will not get presents from santa….

I wonder if the staff at ANet get a RNG pay packet…

Heard of a guy here in Florida who at a local fair spent over $3000 on a carnival game.

He started out with $30 or so, lost it all, hit the ATM, lost that, got infuriated so went and raided his savings.

Lost all of that, eventually complained and the fair manager returned about $600 to him along with the prize he was trying to win, an XBox.

Of course the guy tried to sue and lost in court, incurring more costs.

Point is, people are stupid, ANet knows this thanks to marketing and statistics companies, and like any company will prey on the suckers for guaranteed cash flow.

Its interesting when you put up GW1 to GW2 and compare their microtransactions. GW1 to my recollection had none of this RNG baloney, what you paid for was what you got. I realize my refusal to participate in the Gem Store due to the RNG nature is largely symbolic, I highly doubt my not purchasing with real money a Molten Pick will hurt ANet’s bottom line. But I will say that I think its reprehensible to put in the cash shop items that CANNOT be earned via gameplay, especially things like weapon skins that the enemies you’re mowing down in droves should be dropping left and right.

And before anyone says the gold-to-gem conversion, please. Unless you’re lucky enough to get a precursor drop to sell on the AH, its unlikely any of the majority of the playerbase will ever acquire enough gold to max out bank and bag slots on a single character, much less several in addition to extra character slots. And that IS “buy to win” in a very real sense, it may not be stats but having more storage or alt space makes gameplay more efficient in the long run. Add to that the very real difficulty of farming anything in appreciable amounts also pushes players to spend real money, and its much more a shove than anything else.

Kaleban.9834:

Heard of a guy here in Florida who at a local fair spent over $3000 on a carnival game.

He started out with $30 or so, lost it all, hit the ATM, lost that, got infuriated so went and raided his savings.

Lost all of that, eventually complained and the fair manager returned about $600 to him along with the prize he was trying to win, an XBox.

Of course the guy tried to sue and lost in court, incurring more costs.

Point is, people are stupid, ANet knows this thanks to marketing and statistics companies, and like any company will prey on the suckers for guaranteed cash flow.

Its interesting when you put up GW1 to GW2 and compare their microtransactions. GW1 to my recollection had none of this RNG baloney, what you paid for was what you got. I realize my refusal to participate in the Gem Store due to the RNG nature is largely symbolic, I highly doubt my not purchasing with real money a Molten Pick will hurt ANet’s bottom line. But I will say that I think its reprehensible to put in the cash shop items that CANNOT be earned via gameplay, especially things like weapon skins that the enemies you’re mowing down in droves should be dropping left and right.

And before anyone says the gold-to-gem conversion, please. Unless you’re lucky enough to get a precursor drop to sell on the AH, its unlikely any of the majority of the playerbase will ever acquire enough gold to max out bank and bag slots on a single character, much less several in addition to extra character slots. And that IS “buy to win” in a very real sense, it may not be stats but having more storage or alt space makes gameplay more efficient in the long run. Add to that the very real difficulty of farming anything in appreciable amounts also pushes players to spend real money, and its much more a shove than anything else.

Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are completely different games. Guild Wars 1 was FAR less ambitious than this game is. It had a staff 20% of the size. And it came out at a time when MMOs weren’t the big money they are today. Not just big money in profit, but big risk in investment. This is a different time. No MMORPG coming out today is going to have a cash shop like Guild Wars 1, unless they charge a monthly sub fee. And many games that charge a monthly sub fee still have a cash shop on top of it.

Guild Wars 1’s cash shop was added as an after thought. It wasn’t part of the marketing plan for the game. Anet was quite direct before launch telling us that the cash shop in Guild Wars 2 would be more intertwined with the game and would play a bigger part in their business plan.

You can compare an 8 year old game to a new one all you want, but it costs a whole lot more to produce an MMO today, the risks are significantly higher and so the payoff is going to have to be higher, or no one would produce one.

When you look at cash shops in other MMOs, Guild Wars 2 isn’t that bad.

Lotro is a free to play game. I paid far more in their cash shop than I did in this one.

dinominator.9862:

Dante.1508:

You’re right they are more slimey, but they don’t try and hide it and say things like they did in manifesto and then do a 180 when the game is released, you know they are slimey and you live with it or don’t play their games…

What Anet did was lower than those others in my opinion..

I just reviewed the manifesto and didn’t find any reference to RNG. All they promised was “no monthly fees.” Where did you read that?

I was talking about how they lied in the marketing of the game, then gave us exactly what they said they wouldn’t do, a generic MMO just like all the rest, and it is, if you cannot see it not my problem, RNG is just part of all that..

I’m not against RNG if its done fair, this game is the worst RNG game i’ve ever played, worse than Asain MMO’s in my opinion, at least there you’re allowed to farm..at least you can buy stuff out right in their games..

Dante.1508:

dinominator.9862:

Dante.1508:

You’re right they are more slimey, but they don’t try and hide it and say things like they did in manifesto and then do a 180 when the game is released, you know they are slimey and you live with it or don’t play their games…

What Anet did was lower than those others in my opinion..

I just reviewed the manifesto and didn’t find any reference to RNG. All they promised was “no monthly fees.” Where did you read that?

I was talking about how they lied in the marketing of the game, then gave us exactly what they said they wouldn’t do, a generic MMO just like all the rest, and it is, if you cannot see it not my problem, RNG is just part of all that..

I’m not against RNG if its done fair, this game is the worst RNG game i’ve ever played, worse than Asain MMO’s in my opinion, at least there you’re allowed to farm..at least you can buy stuff out right in their games..

If you can see a generic MMO looking at this game, I don’t really know what to tell you.

If this was a generic MMO why are so many people coming from other games confused? Maybe the problem is you play it like a generic MMO so it’s a generic MMO to you.

Pure brilliance, thank you for authoring this. I wouldn’t mind if somebody sent this Cox’ way or if it just happened to be emailed to some of the people at NCSOFT!

Eir Jordan.1293:

Pure brilliance, thank you for authoring this. I wouldn’t mind if somebody sent this Cox’ way or if it just happened to be emailed to some of the people at NCSOFT!

They’re too busy counting all the money rng has made them to have time to read the thread.

Turns out these boxes are pretty much in every game. I can’t say for every mmo but i know for sure:
GW2
Tera
FFXI
Aion

It appears that people generally are okay with RNG boxes dropping epic things at chance. Just wanted to add that info. And again, they are optional.

Let’s take away everything that is “optional” in the game and see what we are left with.

Vayne.8563:

This is a really good analysis of the situation as it stands. I’m not sure it adds anything that hasn’t been said in other threads, but it does bring the entire issue under one roof, so to speak.

The difference, though, in comparing Tribes: Ascended and an MMO is the amount of new content that the company has to create to keep people interested.

In first person multiplayer shooters like Tribes Ascended, it’s all about player vs. player and that makes it’s own content. The same can not be said for an MMO. So I find it interesting that you chose to compare an MMOs cash shop to that of a FPS. I’m not sure the situation is congruent.

The question is, for me, how much money does it take to maintain that game, compared to how much money it takes to maintain an MMO. When comparing cash shops, it’s easy to make the basic assumption that the cash needs of one game are equal to another, but I don’t find that true.

Even within the MMO genre, its’ not true. WoW has a cash shop and you can buy a mount for $25 dollars or more. They charge as much as Guild Wars 2 for server transfers too…but they also have a monthly fee….a huge influx of cash every month.

Other MMOs have cash shops that are far worse than Guild Wars 2’s. They lock off certain professions or certain races. In some you can buy traits or character upgrades. In the worst of them you can buy BIS gear. It’s a pretty sad story, all together.

But because every MMO that has a cash shop and no subscription has a cash shop at least as bad as Guild Wars 2, it makes you wonder why.

I don’t think it’s particularly good to compare the cash shop in an FPS where regular content isn’t a monthly deal and no one is expecting it really, and something like Guild Wars 2. In fact, do we even know how big the company that makes Tribes: Ascended is. How many people they’re paying?

That sort of overhead definitely changes the game with regards to how “greedy” a cash shop is. I don’t have the answer, because I haven’t researched it, but I do know that it’s far easier to run an FPS than an MMORPG.

GW1 Cash shop, check it Yes, they make less money, but sales+shopsales make enough to pay the company + servers + having profit. & i respect that way more than selling out your customers.
GW1 shop: http://puu.sh/2YBzU/4d5c19174c.jpg

Geotherma.2395:

Turns out these boxes are pretty much in every game. I can’t say for every mmo but i know for sure:
GW2
Tera
FFXI
Aion

It appears that people generally are okay with RNG boxes dropping epic things at chance. Just wanted to add that info. And again, they are optional.

People don’t decide that, companies do, people just fall for it, because the scammy part about it is so hidden.

StormageddonBK.9842:

I wonder if the staff at ANet get a RNG pay packet…

LOL :P Best comment ever! xD hahahhahahaa

Geotherma.2395:

Turns out these boxes are pretty much in every game. I can’t say for every mmo but i know for sure:
GW2
Tera
FFXI
Aion

It appears that people generally are okay with RNG boxes dropping epic things at chance. Just wanted to add that info. And again, they are optional.

There are drug dealers in every state of the United States but that still doesn’t make what they do moral or legal. 0/10but good try lol.

CoRtex.2157:

Vayne.8563:

This is a really good analysis of the situation as it stands. I’m not sure it adds anything that hasn’t been said in other threads, but it does bring the entire issue under one roof, so to speak.

The difference, though, in comparing Tribes: Ascended and an MMO is the amount of new content that the company has to create to keep people interested.

In first person multiplayer shooters like Tribes Ascended, it’s all about player vs. player and that makes it’s own content. The same can not be said for an MMO. So I find it interesting that you chose to compare an MMOs cash shop to that of a FPS. I’m not sure the situation is congruent.

The question is, for me, how much money does it take to maintain that game, compared to how much money it takes to maintain an MMO. When comparing cash shops, it’s easy to make the basic assumption that the cash needs of one game are equal to another, but I don’t find that true.

Even within the MMO genre, its’ not true. WoW has a cash shop and you can buy a mount for $25 dollars or more. They charge as much as Guild Wars 2 for server transfers too…but they also have a monthly fee….a huge influx of cash every month.

Other MMOs have cash shops that are far worse than Guild Wars 2’s. They lock off certain professions or certain races. In some you can buy traits or character upgrades. In the worst of them you can buy BIS gear. It’s a pretty sad story, all together.

But because every MMO that has a cash shop and no subscription has a cash shop at least as bad as Guild Wars 2, it makes you wonder why.

I don’t think it’s particularly good to compare the cash shop in an FPS where regular content isn’t a monthly deal and no one is expecting it really, and something like Guild Wars 2. In fact, do we even know how big the company that makes Tribes: Ascended is. How many people they’re paying?

That sort of overhead definitely changes the game with regards to how “greedy” a cash shop is. I don’t have the answer, because I haven’t researched it, but I do know that it’s far easier to run an FPS than an MMORPG.

GW1 Cash shop, check it Yes, they make less money, but sales+shopsales make enough to pay the company + servers + having profit. & i respect that way more than selling out your customers.
GW1 shop: http://puu.sh/2YBzU/4d5c19174c.jpg

I keep repeating this, but apparently I have to say it again.

Guild Wars 1 is different from Guild Wars 2 in three IMPORTANT aspects.

1. The staff was at least five times smaller. Guild Wars 2 is in every way a far more ambitious project and requires more funding.

2. MMOs were much cheaper to program back then, because people’s expectations of MMOs were so much lower. It costs far more to make an MMO these days, because of what people expect and how competitive the industry is.

3. This is probably the most important fact. Anet added the cash shop to Guild Wars 1 after launch and it never figured into the business plan. In Guild Wars 2 the cash shop was part of the business plan from day one.

If the cash shop doesnt’ do well, Guild Wars 2 will not have enough money to provide us with new content. The game will die. It really is that simple.

Drew.1865:

Geotherma.2395:

Turns out these boxes are pretty much in every game. I can’t say for every mmo but i know for sure:
GW2
Tera
FFXI
Aion

It appears that people generally are okay with RNG boxes dropping epic things at chance. Just wanted to add that info. And again, they are optional.

There are drug dealers in every state of the United States but that still doesn’t make what they do moral or legal. 0/10but good try lol.

What is immoral about making money and offering a product in a virtual world? It is neither illegal or immoral, it is an optional service which provides 100% guarantee to get a reward of some kind. Try getting that guarantee on buying a house, a car, getting a job, a wife, winning the lottery, surviving a natural disaster, heck try getting any guarantees in real life with no strings attached. Welcome to the real world, it revolves around money. If people don’t get that, they haven’t learned anything in life.

CoRtex.2157:

Geotherma.2395:

Turns out these boxes are pretty much in every game. I can’t say for every mmo but i know for sure:
GW2
Tera
FFXI
Aion

It appears that people generally are okay with RNG boxes dropping epic things at chance. Just wanted to add that info. And again, they are optional.

People don’t decide that, companies do, people just fall for it, because the scammy part about it is so hidden.

What exactly is hidden?

Spend X gems at a chance to get X,Y,Z items. Some items are rarer than others and harder to obtain. Missing the scam part there? You pay, you get a reward. It is only hidden to people who must clearly be completely blind and naive to think chance = guarantee. If you can read the description, you understand the chances. A scam is where people deceive you, only people deceived are clearly not paying attention.

Geotherma.2395:

CoRtex.2157:

Geotherma.2395:

Turns out these boxes are pretty much in every game. I can’t say for every mmo but i know for sure:
GW2
Tera
FFXI
Aion

It appears that people generally are okay with RNG boxes dropping epic things at chance. Just wanted to add that info. And again, they are optional.

People don’t decide that, companies do, people just fall for it, because the scammy part about it is so hidden.

What exactly is hidden?

Spend X gems at a chance to get X,Y,Z items. Some items are rarer than others and harder to obtain. Missing the scam part there? You pay, you get a reward. It is only hidden to people who must clearly be completely blind and naive to think chance = guarantee. If you can read the description, you understand the chances. A scam is where people deceive you, only people deceived are clearly not paying attention.

I agree there is nothing hidden about it. Anyone who thinks that the chance of getting something rare is anything but vanishingly small is engaging in wishful thinking. In fact, it is that realization that means I will never spend money on RNG items, whether they be fluff, cosmetic or game-breaking. If the latter type of item exists, it’s hasta la vista, baby.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Geotherma.2395:

CoRtex.2157:

Geotherma.2395:

Turns out these boxes are pretty much in every game. I can’t say for every mmo but i know for sure:
GW2
Tera
FFXI
Aion

It appears that people generally are okay with RNG boxes dropping epic things at chance. Just wanted to add that info. And again, they are optional.

People don’t decide that, companies do, people just fall for it, because the scammy part about it is so hidden.

What exactly is hidden?

Spend X gems at a chance to get X,Y,Z items. Some items are rarer than others and harder to obtain. Missing the scam part there? You pay, you get a reward. It is only hidden to people who must clearly be completely blind and naive to think chance = guarantee. If you can read the description, you understand the chances. A scam is where people deceive you, only people deceived are clearly not paying attention.

I agree there is nothing hidden about it. Anyone who thinks that the chance of getting something rare is anything but vanishingly small is engaging in wishful thinking. In fact, it is that realization that means I will never spend money on RNG items, whether they be fluff, cosmetic or game-breaking. If the latter type of item exists, it’s hasta la vista, baby.

What ’s hidden are your odds.

In RL, gambling has odds. Even in computerized gambling such as slot machines or video poker, there are statutes for the minimum payout percentage. You at least have some idea of the worst-case return is on the machines.

Do you know what the odds are for getting a skin? Does anyone but the house?

What the company has done is obfuscate your odds, and circumvented law by creating online gambling with a virtual currency. Only South Korea has made any movement into the realm of virtual goods, in fact outright banning their sale and trade. The only reason this type of gambling has not been addressed by Western law is because unlike traditional gambling online, its not targeting the same customer base as the RL gambling industry.

Essence Snow.3194:

Let’s take away everything that is “optional” in the game and see what we are left with.

A well-polished engine and some innovative concept designs.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are completely different games. Guild Wars 1 was FAR less ambitious than this game is. It had a staff 20% of the size. And it came out at a time when MMOs weren’t the big money they are today. Not just big money in profit, but big risk in investment. This is a different time. No MMORPG coming out today is going to have a cash shop like Guild Wars 1, unless they charge a monthly sub fee. And many games that charge a monthly sub fee still have a cash shop on top of it.

Guild Wars 1’s cash shop was added as an after thought. It wasn’t part of the marketing plan for the game. Anet was quite direct before launch telling us that the cash shop in Guild Wars 2 would be more intertwined with the game and would play a bigger part in their business plan.

You can compare an 8 year old game to a new one all you want, but it costs a whole lot more to produce an MMO today, the risks are significantly higher and so the payoff is going to have to be higher, or no one would produce one.

When you look at cash shops in other MMOs, Guild Wars 2 isn’t that bad.

Lotro is a free to play game. I paid far more in their cash shop than I did in this one.

I can’t exactly let this post stand. Guild Wars 1 was released in 2005. WoW was released in 2004. In Q1 2005, WoW reached 1.5 million subscribers. When GW1 was released in Q2 2005, WoW had approximately 3 million subscribers. City of Heroes, released in 2004, had 170,000 subscribers in Q2 2005 and peaked around 200,000 in Q4 2005. Final Fantasy XI was released in 2003 and in 2003, there were 200,000 subscribers.

So, no, MMOs were not this new, amazing frontier until Guild Wars 1. They were just being explored from 1999-2005. They were rather established with games like Anarchy Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EverQuest, Ragnarok Online, Maple Story, Final Fantasy XI, City of Heroes, World of Warcraft, Eve Online, Lineage, Lineage II, and Ultima Online; all of these games came out in that time frame. At the time, “cash shops” were absent in all but Maple Story. Guild Wars 1 was actually one of the first exclusively North American games to institute the cash shop in 2006, a year after its release.

MMOs were a large investment then, they were an even larger risk due to the relatively unexplored market, AND it’s completely apropos to compare the games on cash shops regardless of size, scope, or original development intent. An argument stating these things make it impossible is merely attempting to distract from the chief comparison.

Here is a history of MMORPGs where you’ll notice that quite a few MMOs were released on the Meridian subscription without cash shop. It wasn’t until Maple Story, Fly For Fun, and the switch of City of Heroes to free-to-play with shop that MMOs began to switch from Meridian subscriptions to F2P cash shop sustained models. http://vault.ign.com/wiki/index.php/MMO_History . This is due to the actual success of City of Heroes up until its abrupt closure despite profits.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Geotherma.2395:

CoRtex.2157:

Geotherma.2395:

Turns out these boxes are pretty much in every game. I can’t say for every mmo but i know for sure:
GW2
Tera
FFXI
Aion

It appears that people generally are okay with RNG boxes dropping epic things at chance. Just wanted to add that info. And again, they are optional.

People don’t decide that, companies do, people just fall for it, because the scammy part about it is so hidden.

What exactly is hidden?

Spend X gems at a chance to get X,Y,Z items. Some items are rarer than others and harder to obtain. Missing the scam part there? You pay, you get a reward. It is only hidden to people who must clearly be completely blind and naive to think chance = guarantee. If you can read the description, you understand the chances. A scam is where people deceive you, only people deceived are clearly not paying attention.

I agree there is nothing hidden about it. Anyone who thinks that the chance of getting something rare is anything but vanishingly small is engaging in wishful thinking. In fact, it is that realization that means I will never spend money on RNG items, whether they be fluff, cosmetic or game-breaking. If the latter type of item exists, it’s hasta la vista, baby.

What’s hidden is the actual chance.

We don’t know whether it’s 1/50 or 1/1000. Allowing people to decide whether the gamble is worth their money is an integral part of fairness in the system. RNG boxes are a shot in the dark.

Honestly I wish I could /ignore some of the posters on here, because you’re white-knighting to the point that you seem like shills.

cainejw.7142:

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are completely different games. Guild Wars 1 was FAR less ambitious than this game is. It had a staff 20% of the size. And it came out at a time when MMOs weren’t the big money they are today. Not just big money in profit, but big risk in investment. This is a different time. No MMORPG coming out today is going to have a cash shop like Guild Wars 1, unless they charge a monthly sub fee. And many games that charge a monthly sub fee still have a cash shop on top of it.

Guild Wars 1’s cash shop was added as an after thought. It wasn’t part of the marketing plan for the game. Anet was quite direct before launch telling us that the cash shop in Guild Wars 2 would be more intertwined with the game and would play a bigger part in their business plan.

You can compare an 8 year old game to a new one all you want, but it costs a whole lot more to produce an MMO today, the risks are significantly higher and so the payoff is going to have to be higher, or no one would produce one.

When you look at cash shops in other MMOs, Guild Wars 2 isn’t that bad.

Lotro is a free to play game. I paid far more in their cash shop than I did in this one.

I can’t exactly let this post stand. Guild Wars 1 was released in 2005. WoW was released in 2004. In Q1 2005, WoW reached 1.5 million subscribers. When GW1 was released in Q2 2005, WoW had approximately 3 million subscribers. City of Heroes, released in 2004, had 170,000 subscribers in Q2 2005 and peaked around 200,000 in Q4 2005. Final Fantasy XI was released in 2003 and in 2003, there were 200,000 subscribers.

So, no, MMOs were not this new, amazing frontier until Guild Wars 1. They were just being explored from 1999-2005. They were rather established with games like Anarchy Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EverQuest, Ragnarok Online, Maple Story, Final Fantasy XI, City of Heroes, World of Warcraft, Eve Online, Lineage, Lineage II, and Ultima Online; all of these games came out in that time frame. At the time, “cash shops” were absent in all but Maple Story. Guild Wars 1 was actually one of the first exclusively North American games to institute the cash shop in 2006, a year after its release.

MMOs were a large investment then, they were an even larger risk due to the relatively unexplored market, AND it’s completely apropos to compare the games on cash shops regardless of size, scope, or original development intent. An argument stating these things make it impossible is merely attempting to distract from the chief comparison.

Here is a history of MMORPGs where you’ll notice that quite a few MMOs were released on the Meridian subscription without cash shop. It wasn’t until Maple Story, Fly For Fun, and the switch of City of Heroes to free-to-play with shop that MMOs began to switch from Meridian subscriptions to F2P cash shop sustained models. http://vault.ign.com/wiki/index.php/MMO_History . This is due to the actual success of City of Heroes up until its abrupt closure despite profits.

Sorry, but I don’t agree the risk was bigger then. Because the expectation was lower. It cost less back then to develop an MMO. What drives up the price today? Things like voice acting, for one. The more voice acting a game has, the more money it costs to produce, because paying actors to say more than a few lines is just very expensive. And more and more people are expecting things to be voiced now.

SWToR is by far the most expensive MMO ever made, and that was down to the cinematics and voice acting more than anything else. The expectations today to make something bigger and better amidst more and more competition makes the risks today larger.

There is a game developers conference that happens every year, and one of the themes in the MMO panel a couple of years back was that companies are less likely to invest in new MMOs today and more likely to invest in games like social media games and games that can be played on a phone. You can make a lot more of them for the same money and have far less risk in making them.

Ten years ago, when WoW and Guild Wars 1 were being created, none of this was a consideration.

To say you have a RARE change of get a said item from a RNG box without clearly stating the change of get that said item is not right. I mean what dose RARE even mean? are we talking 10%, 1% what are, are chances here? Well let be honest here it’s more likely to be 0.00000001% and this is why the percentage are not openly told to us. Using terms such as “a rare chance” is far too of a bought statement to be interpreted correctly and that why they use it. it’s then are fault if we interpret the information we are giving incorrectly not Anets so their backs are covered.

So why dose Anet feeling this is a fair and a just way of giving a costumer a fair chance in an item? Of the top of my head i can name three other FREE online rpgs that have cash shop which also sell lottery box’s with different items in them. The difference here is each and EVER items available in these box’s has a percentage chance to win each item listed and available for their paying costumer to see before buying them.

So i ask you why can other games list the percentage chance of get said item and keep on selling lottery box’s without any trouble?

just in case you where wonder what i was talking about here is an example of how spiral knight online RPG dose its RNG box’.
Information about the Continent of the box’s is send to you in game, and is also found on the forum room posted up by an admin with a clear list of each items and more importantly the percentage change of them dropping form the box’s.

Items and Odds

70% for one of the following:
- Green Antique Bench
- Purple Antique Bench
- Purple Antique Chair
- Green Antique Chair
- Antique Table
- Antique Bookcase
- Moldy Tome Stack
- Musty Tome Stack
- Antique Luggage
- Antique Suitcases
- Skull Pile
- Bone Stack

28% for one of the following:
- Ancient Tome Stand
- Orange Tall Gaslamp
- Orange Short Gaslamp
- Blue Tall Gaslamp
- Blue Short Gaslamp
- Green Tall Gaslamp
- Green Short Gaslamp
- Purple Tall Gaslamp
- Purple Short Gaslamp

2% for one of the following:
- Cursed Tome Stand
- Mystical Tome Stand
- Curious Mewkat
———————————————————————————————————
Winterfest Prize Box Items and Odds

62% for one of the following:
- Snow Block (a furnishing perfect for building snow forts)
- Crest of Winter accessory
- Red Holiday Presents (furnishing)
- Green Holiday Presents (furnishing)
- White Holiday Presents (furnishing)

21% for one of the following:
- Red Candles (furnishing)
- Green Candles (furnishing)
- White Candles (furnishing)

15% for one of the following:
- Red Winterfest Tree (furnishing)
- Green Winterfest Tree (furnishing)
- White Winterfest Tree (furnishing)
- Snowfall Aura accessory
- Crown of Winter accessory

So why i ask you dose Anet not list its percentage change freely to see i can not be sure but I’m guessing it due to how low the percentage chance are which if this is the case they should be ashamed of themselves.
I for one want them to change the way they handle lottery box’s by list the percentage chance of get each item. I believe this would quickly silence most of their critics, unless they are too afraid to let their paying customers know just how low your chances really are.

I think they should list percentage chances too…if they insist on continuing to sell them in the store. I’d rather not have them at all.

Vayne.8563:

I think they should list percentage chances too…if they insist on continuing to sell them in the store. I’d rather not have them at all.

I concur. +1

Said it before elsewhere, so, not going to rehash the whole thing – but simply put

What makes you think posting the odds will significantly affect GW2 consumer behavior? Do you think the typical GW2 consumer will even bother to lookup the posted odds before a purchase? How about after?

I would contend any consumer that has an understanding of the way things currently work isn’t going to be swayed differently upon seeing the actual odds. Likewise, I’d bet it’s a scant few that don’t understand the mechanic would bother to either bother to lookup the odds, or care.

Here’s a little experiment in human behavior, next time you’re at your locale convenience store, watch to see how people buy lottery tickets. How many, if any of them ever ask to see the ticket before purchasing to check the stated odds? How about after they’ve scratched it off?

Mourningcry.9428:

Said it before elsewhere, so, not going to rehash the whole thing – but simply put

What makes you think posting the odds will significantly affect GW2 consumer behavior? Do you think the typical GW2 consumer will even bother to lookup the posted odds before a purchase? How about after?

I would contend any consumer that has an understanding of the way things currently work isn’t going to be swayed differently upon seeing the actual odds. Likewise, I’d bet it’s a scant few that don’t understand the mechanic would bother to either bother to lookup the odds, or care.

Here’s a little experiment in human behavior, next time you’re at your locale convenience store, watch to see how people buy lottery tickets. How many, if any of them ever ask to see the ticket before purchasing to check the stated odds? How about after they’ve scratched it off?

You bet your sweet scratch-off I would.

You know what I don’t see? Complaint threads about RNG drops from mobs. Why does no one complain about the fact we spent $60 dollars and don’t get guaranteed drops from every mob? Why don’t we get lodestones every 5th drop? And yet, people who spend $0 come and complain about buying boxes or keys and getting 100% drop of an item every single time, with a chance of a super rare item, and a 23% chance to get another key for another try? On top of that, those % numbers are from us doing the research. So why aren’t there threads on that? Ask yourself why it is different now to complain about something that some people pay nothing other than gold>gems for, and get 100% drop with that chance at more.

The drops in game aren’t optional. You need them for gold, for crafting. Every mob in game will not always drop “something”. When some do you can get almost worthless junk. What drops from a BL chest is items that cost Gems or real cash or large amounts of gold>gems. Whether you like that item or not is irrelevant. The fact is that you get something. The skins aren’t even needed, they are lodestones for crafting, they aren’t rares for ectos. So why is it ok to complain for 5 pages, for 300 threads about the RNG of these chests when it is actually a better design than the core RNG used for the games drops?

You want percentages? Have you checked out http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Chest/Drop_rate ?
Where do you think those numbers come from? Anet didn’t give us numbers for mob drops, not for chest drops, not for what pops out. We did the work. They give us the ability to learn and adjust out buying, or farming, or playing by not changing any of those things. If all things remain constant with the boxes then we can make a chart the same as that other on the drop chance. But do we need those percentages? No. You know why? As someone else stated above, how many people actually go into a store to buy a lottery ticket and go “oh by the way, whats my chances?” Does anyone here even know off the top of their head the chances at winning the powerball, NY lottery, PA lotteries? Probably not all of them are on the tip of your tongue. No one is being scammed here, lottery and gambling in real life means all or nothing. You either win or lose. RNG boxes you ALWAYS win, you just don’t always get what you want. Try getting that luck in Vegas. Or even more annoyingly, go try those pick up a pet with the claw games. See what frustrates you more, RNG or the super tweaked claw that can’t grab a teddy bear even when it has a full grip. >.>

If people are spending a ton of money recklessly on these or any boxes anywhere, it is on them. They know the chances are low for skins, knowing they are 1/10000 or 1/1000000 doesn’t matter. It is on them to simply stop buying if they cannot afford it, just as much as it is a gambler to know when to quit. The difference is the RNG boxes will come out ahead because you actually get items. Add the gem worth of those items up, every single one. And then look at how much you spent, and see what really happened. If you are compelled to buy RNG boxes and cannot stop, that is a psychological problem that Arenanet did not create. So don’t blame them for peoples impulsive behavior. If they keep spending and it is affecting their real life, they need help, or a break or both. But don’t go blaming the cracker jack box company, just because you keep getting the same prize after 30 boxes.

Knowing the odds does matter and is the whole issue, that is the only way you can make an informed decision. The lotto example isn’t relevant because we know the odds of all real life gambling and your prize is scaled to the odds usually (e.g. lower odds give better prizes).

If people still chose to buy RNG chests after they know the odds then they’ll have far less cause to complain because they were told there is only a X percentage chance of getting your item. They’ll also be able to guess a budget for getting their item (e.g. if it is 1% chance for the drop they might need to buy/find up to 100 or 150 chests to get their item on average).

StormageddonBK.9842:

Knowing the odds does matter and is the whole issue, that is the only way you can make an informed decision. The lotto example isn’t relevant because we know the odds of all real life gambling and your prize is scaled to the odds usually (e.g. lower odds give better prizes).

If people still chose to buy RNG chests after they know the odds then they’ll have far less cause to complain because they were told there is only a X percentage chance of getting your item. They’ll also be able to guess a budget for getting their item (e.g. if it is 1% chance for the drop they might need to buy/find up to 100 or 150 chests to get their item on average).

Explain how you can budget against RNG even with a % of a chance. Because even if it is 1/100 chance and you buy 110 you can still end up with 0. RNG and fuzzy logic does not work that way. Each time you open you roll that random number again, you are NOT getting closer to a percentage or a number each time. Your chances reset each time and are set at a very low probability. The chance to obtain skins is on par with between the chance of obtaining an endless mystery tonic, and a large guild discovery.

“If people still chose to buy RNG chests after they know the odds then they’ll have far less cause to complain because they were told there is only a X percentage chance of getting your item. "

People will still complain, it is in their nature to do so when they don’t get what they want when they want it. While I believe that customers should be able to voice concerns and opinions, quite often it is no more than someone upset because they didn’t get their way.

If you would like a budget for the skins inside the chest then plan on getting one between chest number 1 and chest number 200. Stop spending after 200 and use free ones because you have had bad luck.