On PvE Design: Adapting to a new paradigm.

On PvE Design: Adapting to a new paradigm.

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Posted by: ProxyDamage.9826

ProxyDamage.9826

(Yes, this is another one of my “no tl;dr, get a chair and deal with it” topics. Apologies if you hate reading. Hopefully it’ll be worth it)

I think I don’t need citations and sources if I say that PvE in Guild Wars 2 has issues. Particularly late game, it is well known that PvE in GW2 is quite flawed by design right now. As is, PvE is the land of the “Berserker of the berserker”, full DPS specs and any build (or char) that isn’t built for max DPS is just dragging everyone else down. Conversely most encounters are relatively repetitive and uninteresting instances of “tank and spank”, despite the fact that GW2 has among the most interesting, action based, and dynamic fighting systems of MMOs out today.

The Diagnostic

GW2 is not a typical MMO in many aspects. One of the most fundamental changes is the elimination of the “holy trinity” (that’s “Healer, Tank, DPS” for the uninitiated). In this game everyone can heal themselves and there is no traditional “healer”, everyone can tank, and everyone can DPS. Whether this is a good or bad thing on its own, is a matter of taste and irrelevant to the issue at hand. Personally I find it fantastic, but even if I hated it, it’s a core element of the game that can (or even should) not be changed at this point.

However, the lack of a trinity, for all its advantages, also brought along some disadvantages. These have been explored in depth in many other places, so to save text and avoid redundancy let’s simply say that the traditional model of “teamwork”, as understood by MMO players and game designers, was destroyed.

It’s also no secret, I think, that GW2, for all its polish in certain core areas, particularly when it comes to visual design and fighting mechanics (which does not include balance – before half of you jump on my throat), the ending stages of development were evidently rush out the door. Orr was barely functional on release and most of the late game content was heavily copy-pasted to say the least. Almost every PvE encounter in the game comes down to either enemies that run up to a certain distance then stay at range and shoot at you, or enemies that bee line straight at your face. Just rev up your choice of meat grinder and go to work. Arena Net is obviously aware of this and has been working towards fixing this area – redesigning Orr, boss battles, etc – with mixed results.

However, I am convinced that certain core elements which, born out of rushed and stressed design or lack of foresight, are not only counter productive but impeditive to a more interesting game design.

The end result is that old sing song, that anthem, every serious PvEr knows off the top of their heads by now: “Go full berserker, full DPS – Things you want to tank you can’t, things you can tank you don’t want to”.

The Fix(es)

That said, I’m not entirely convinced that “that’s that” and the current situation can’t be changed. Given a few core changes, that seem quite feasible to my, admittedly very amateur, coder’s eye, I believe PvE could easily become a much more interesting experience.

#1: Rework Defiant

For the unaware Defiant is an effect present in almost every champion mob or above . It is a mechanic whereas a monster creates “layers” of resistance to control effects that must be stripped (by control effects) until the boss is vulnerable to them. Upon being hit by one form of control once vulnerable, the “layers” are restored (based on the number of players in the event) and must be worn down again.

And to my eye this is the single greatest impediment to interesting boss design in the game right now. While the mechanic was seemingly created for the purpose of preventing bosses from being “stun locked” into oblivion (and one can see how that could easily become a thing given the crowds that generally gather up to these enemies), the end result is that it completely nullifies the role of control in the bigger and most important fights in the game. CC becomes too unreliable to be depended on – even in an organized party a single accidental click that restore 3, 4, 5, 20, etc “layers” of defiant that must be stripped all over again before a single interrupt can be used, let alone in a pug or, heavens forbid, open world. As such boss design can not exploit the mechanics of interruption by players. For all intents and purposes, Defiant removes CC from the PvE side of the game where it should be most relevant.

(1/3)

(edited by ProxyDamage.9826)

On PvE Design: Adapting to a new paradigm.

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Posted by: ProxyDamage.9826

ProxyDamage.9826

What I propose is that Defiant be not removed but reworked into the opposite mechanic, one more closely resembling frenzy: instead of a monster being invulnerable to CC and having stacks of Defiant that must be stripped, monsters would start vulnerable to CC, and build up resistance through Defiant. Each stack of Defiant would increase the resistance to control effects in a certain percentage (for example 10% – think Runes of Melandru). Once a certain cap was met (for example 10 stacks), the monster would be temporarily invulnerable to all control effects until stacks were lost. Stacks would be lost every few seconds without receiving any form of control effect (for example 20 seconds – these values are all guess work btw, don’t get caught up in them).

Suddenly, Control becomes a viable and relevant thing in your world. Suddenly, a whole new world of possibilities opens up for boss designs. You can have attacks that must be interrupted. You can have attacks that don’t have to, but benefit from being interrupted. Your party, or pug group, isn’t as heavily punished by a single “out of sync” move. And yet, attempts to “chain stun” a boss would be prevented just the same – spam CC and it becomes increasingly less effective.

You can even play around with hitting the Defiant cap as a trigger. Picture if you will, Orr temples, with each “Risen Priest/Priestess” having unique actions triggered by hitting the Defiant cap:

  • The Risen Priest of Grenth could immediately go invulnerable for a second or two, “consume” his Defiant stacks (removing them, or causing them to decrease much faster), shout “Grenth consume you!” and cause a very large radius version of the Ranger’s Entangle , perhaps with some extra torment in the mix. A dangerous punishment for abusing CC, especially given the Priest’s strong AoE’s, but one that could, nonetheless, be countered.
  • The Risen Priest of Melandru could become invulnerable for a second, shout “Melandru protect me!” and gain an “unshakable armor” – the Priest would convert his Defiant stacks into “armor layers”, each reducing damage by a certain percentage and rendering him immune to control effects, and each layer would be removed by control effects, similar to the current “Defiant” mechanic.
  • Or (for a non-temple related example) the Champion Risen Abomination could instantly receive 25 stacks of frenzy and become invulnerable for as long as it would take for one stack of defiant to vanish.

There are a lot more possibilities, but I think you understand the potential. And not every champion would necessarily have it as a “trigger”, some could simply have the base mechanic, adding further variety and distinction between encounters.

With Defiant changed you could add a lot of diversity to encounters. Interrupting bosses could become a reliable mechanic. Champions could be displaced through knock backs, pulls, pushes…etc. Imagine the recent Mei Lin encounter in the Aetherblade Retreat if Defiant worked in this fashion instead of the current way it does. It would make players able to actually push Lin to Rorik’s AoE, instead of relying on her following the right player at the right time, making the entire encounter far more skill based and enjoyable and a lot less clunky and random. Knock her around too much and suddenly you can’t do it at all. Seriously, think of the potential. Even speed runners would benefit from it, as speed runs would become more skill and coordination based instead of DPS checks.

#2: Enemies need more movement

Once Defiant is out of the way and bosses can enjoy far greater variety, normal mobs need to enjoy a little more variety as well. One of the most limiting traits of mobs currently is their movement. Melee runs head on at you, ranged tries to stay within a certain pre-defined range, and that’s it. As I mentioned before, it comes down to turning on the lawn mower and letting them do their own work. It’s the reason Warrior’s Hundred Blades is the miracle cure for everything PvE.

Now don’t get me wrong, there’s plenty of place in the world of GW2’s PvE for bee lining mobs, but there also needs to be room for mobs that move around. That bob and weave (physically dodging things, not just silly and generally clunky evades tacked on top, like Karkas’ “side stepping”). Mobs that hit and run. Spiders (or other mobs) that run along walls and ceilings in caves, instead of just straight at you on the floor. Mobs that don’t clump together nicely around the players.This immediately removes emphasis from “pure meat grinders”, such as HB, and introduces the importance of mobility, or ranged, or control (again) instead of just higher DPS AoE.

Additionally, having mobs that are harder to constantly hit places some relevance in condition builds, since their otherwise lower DPS becomes a lot more relevant once you factor in mobs that can’t be constantly hit by “white damage”.

(edited by ProxyDamage.9826)

On PvE Design: Adapting to a new paradigm.

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Posted by: ProxyDamage.9826

ProxyDamage.9826

(3/3)

#3: More variation between enemies

I suppose that this somewhat includes the above two points, but also goes beyond them, and, IMO, can only happen once the above are done. Once Defiant is changed and mobs come in different “shapes and sizes” when it comes to movement, you can also vary them more when it comes to everything else. You can have swarm of weaker but highly mobile enemies, perhaps with a little CC here and there, like a cripple or a chill, and in their midst one or two slow, lumbering, strong mobs with big telegraphed attacks you need to dodge or interrupt. There’s room for mobs that clump up together, as well as mobs that actively spread out to avoid AoEs. Mobs with high toughness and low vitality that are best dealt with through conditions, as well as mobs with high vitality and low toughness best mauled by “white damage”. Mobs that are particularly vulnerable (i.e.: take extra damage from) to fire… or poison… or bleeding… or mobs that are more vulnerable to continuous damage than burst… etc.

Or you could even have mobs with specific interactions with certain conditions.

Imagine a mob that goes hysteric, and helpless, for a few seconds once they receive a certain amount for poison damage. Or a mob that takes extra damage for each stack of bleed on them. Or a large mob, say Risen Giants, that would trash around ineffectively (if powerfully) for a few seconds if blinded, becoming temporarily immune to blinds for a short period after. Or a mob that panics, or trashes around hitting friends and foes alike, for a few seconds after being set on fire. Imagine a “swarm” type mob that not only takes double the damage from fire, but that automatically spreads burning to nearby creatures of the same time.

The possibilities are endless. Do all of the above and while it may be unreasonable to expect full condition damage parties to become a thing (due to the inherent limitations with stacking conditions), you might realistically start seeing parties asking for one or two condition builds instead of pure direct damage only.

#4: More Rewarding “trash” enemies

I know this has been recognized as an issue by ANet, and that they’re “working on it”, so there’s no need to go in-depth. The only reason I’m bringing this up at all is because I’m hoping ANet won’t simply take the lazy way out and make enemies “unskippable”. The problem isn’t that you can skip enemies, is that there is no reason not to.

Speed runs are a good thing. They’re great fun to do and watch, if you’re into that sort of thing. Super Mario 64 is still alive today due to speed runners. I remember in Portal some of the most fun I’ve had with the game revolved around “cheating” the game – finding alternative and more efficient solutions to the puzzle – along with finding the original “intended” solutions. This was something the game makers actively encouraged, even going as far as purposely not patching “exploits” they knew as they considered them more intelligent/interesting/challenging than the originally intended solution. Alternatives are good. The problem is when all non-mandatory encounters are boring, uninteresting “tank and spank”, and unrewarding. Sitting through a minute or two of extra “Hundred Blades/Whirling Wrath/whatever other high DPS attacks you have> Auto attack until it comes off cooldown > Rinse and repeat” for anything from grey trash to a green worth 2 silver if you’re lucky is simply not worth it. When a champion or elite mob takes 20 times the time it takes to kill a “trash mob” and they’re both worth the same jack kitten, you simply don’t bother.

If, instead, you make these encounters interesting and challenging, and make them worth the time they take to do, I guarantee that you’ll start seeing a lot more “no-skipping” runs pop alongside speedruns.

And that’s about it from me for now. My proverbial 2 cents – although with the size of the thing it’s actually more along the lines of 8.95 (shoutouts to anyone who gets the reference). I honestly think GW2’s PvE is standing on the edge of something truly unique and spectacular, and I think these changes could very well push it over.

On PvE Design: Adapting to a new paradigm.

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Posted by: Jemmi.6058

Jemmi.6058

Love these suggestions! +1

however, I think this makes more sense in the suggestions forum?

On PvE Design: Adapting to a new paradigm.

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Posted by: ProxyDamage.9826

ProxyDamage.9826

Love these suggestions! +1

however, I think this makes more sense in the suggestions forum?

Possibly. I thought this was worthy of discussion, and since there was no “PvE Forum”, I went with the rough equivalent of “general discussion” here… But if some moderator thinks it’s more appropriate there, by all means.

Also it seems the filter messed up some of my text… If you see “Kitten” somewhere in the text, it’s probably nothing “dirty”, just stupid overreacting by the filter, such as “is” followed by “hit”… Honestly that was a huge post and I can’t be bothered going over every little line again right now to make sure it doesn’t conflict with the kittening (no, it’s working right on this one) arbitrary filter. Maybe a bit later.

On PvE Design: Adapting to a new paradigm.

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Posted by: Jemmi.6058

Jemmi.6058

Love these suggestions! +1

however, I think this makes more sense in the suggestions forum?

Possibly. I thought this was worthy of discussion, and since there was no “PvE Forum”, I went with the rough equivalent of “general discussion” here… But if some moderator thinks it’s more appropriate there, by all means.

Also it seems the filter messed up some of my text… If you see “Kitten” somewhere in the text, it’s probably nothing “dirty”, just stupid overreacting by the filter, such as “is” followed by “hit”… Honestly that was a huge post and I can’t be bothered going over every little line again right now to make sure it doesn’t conflict with the kittening (no, it’s working right on this one) arbitrary filter. Maybe a bit later.

No worries about the filter, we all get your pain on that one my favourite is if you write A F K then it re-writes it to akitten.

Your post, although not 100% legible, was understandable.

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Posted by: Amadan.9451

Amadan.9451

i totally agree.
i wish mobs could have skills more similar to ours, like in gw1, and some trash mobs in dungeon have less hp, they not only rewards nothing but takes for ever to kill, if they were reasonably killable , i think less people would skip (sometimes skipping it’s just dangerous and waste more time skipping badly than killing easily).

can you really imagine in arah path 3 killing all those spiders? seriously? and that is already the shortest path despite being so long…

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Posted by: Shockwave.1230

Shockwave.1230

(3/3)
I know this has been recognized as an issue by ANet, and that they’re “working on it”, so there’s no need to go in-depth. The only reason I’m bringing this up at all is because I’m hoping ANet won’t simply take the lazy way out and make enemies “unskippable”. The problem isn’t that you can skip enemies, is that there is no reason not to.

Speed runs are a good thing. They’re great fun to do and watch, if you’re into that sort of thing. Super Mario 64 is still alive today due to speed runners. I remember in Portal some of the most fun I’ve had with the game revolved around “cheating” the game – finding alternative and more efficient solutions to the puzzle – along with finding the original “intended” solutions. This was something the game makers actively encouraged, even going as far as purposely not patching “exploits” they knew as they considered them more intelligent/interesting/challenging than the originally intended solution. Alternatives are good. The problem is when all non-mandatory encounters are boring, uninteresting “tank and spank”, and unrewarding. Sitting through a minute or two of extra “Hundred Blades/Whirling Wrath/whatever other high DPS attacks you have> Auto attack until it comes off cooldown > Rinse and repeat” for anything from grey trash to a green worth 2 silver if you’re lucky is simply not worth it. When a champion or elite mob takes 20 times the time it takes to kill a “trash mob” and they’re both worth the same jack kitten, you simply don’t bother.

If, instead, you make these encounters interesting and challenging, and make them worth the time they take to do, I guarantee that you’ll start seeing a lot more “no-skipping” runs pop alongside speedruns.

Respect +1 for the OP

I definitely want to emphasize the importance the paragraphs quoted above. Encouraging creativity instead of being Apple like and making everyone have the same thing.

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Posted by: Erasculio.2914

Erasculio.2914

#1: Rework Defiant

And to my eye this is the single greatest impediment to interesting boss design in the game right now.

I disagree. If you removed Defiant from all bosses right now… Nothing would change. It would be pointless to try to use any kind of control on the bosses when the best way to prevent them from doing something is just killing them. It’s not Defiant that makes control useless – it’s the fact that no boss has anything worth interrupting that makes control useless.

Imagine a boss had an attack that had to be interrupted, or it would kill the entire party. Imagine that boss has Defiant, and that we’re talking about a dungeon boss (so 5 stacks of Defiant for each interrupt). Do you know what would happen? Players would need both to use control (something they don’t need right now) and to have some coordination so people don’t waste control at the wrong time (something players also don’t need right now).

But the game is currently at the opposite extreme – control is useless since it’s always easier and better to just kill enemies. The best evidence for this is how control is mostly useless even on common enemies, those who do not have Defiant – if enemy design made interrupts actually better than just killing stuff, having control useful on anything but the bosses would even be acceptable. But as the game currently is, control is useless everywhere, not just against bosses with Defiant.

“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons

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Posted by: ProxyDamage.9826

ProxyDamage.9826

#1: Rework Defiant

And to my eye this is the single greatest impediment to interesting boss design in the game right now.

I disagree. If you removed Defiant from all bosses right now… Nothing would change. It would be pointless to try to use any kind of control on the bosses when the best way to prevent them from doing something is just killing them. It’s not Defiant that makes control useless – it’s the fact that no boss has anything worth interrupting that makes control useless.

Imagine a boss had an attack that had to be interrupted, or it would kill the entire party. Imagine that boss has Defiant, and that we’re talking about a dungeon boss (so 5 stacks of Defiant for each interrupt). Do you know what would happen? Players would need both to use control (something they don’t need right now) and to have some coordination so people don’t waste control at the wrong time (something players also don’t need right now).

But the game is currently at the opposite extreme – control is useless since it’s always easier and better to just kill enemies. The best evidence for this is how control is mostly useless even on common enemies, those who do not have Defiant – if enemy design made interrupts actually better than just killing stuff, having control useful on anything but the bosses would even be acceptable. But as the game currently is, control is useless everywhere, not just against bosses with Defiant.

But that’s the thing. As it is, you can’t have a boss that does that. Simply put, it’s just too clunky.

First of all, something like that would be a PUG wiper right now. It’s hard enough to try to get people to understand “melee alpha”, or “don’t use CC” when a boss gets stuck, let alone “use only 4 CC, we’ll take numbers, then wait till that one attack, then CC to interrupt”. But as is Defiant is just too clunky to allow proper a proper control role, even in a coordinated group. Having to burn through 4/5 CCs arbitrarily every time you want ONE of them to land is just too clunky.

You want a good example? The Mai Trin fight from Aetherblade Retreat. A nice, different, boss fight, that is incredibly clunky because of Defiant. How many groups do you see trying to coordinate their CC so in one slot they have “available” they manage to knock Mai into the exact right area? So far I’ve seen none. I’ve seen people try to knock her around if she happens to hang around with no Defiant stacks for a bit, sometimes even accidentally overlapping attempts. Imagine how much more fun, and skill based, the fight would become if you could knock her around, with her, nonetheless, gaining resistance to it the more you did it in quick succession: If you’re patient and use your cc right it makes the fight far more controllable, instead of having to rely on Mai randomly targeting a person at least close to the person that Rorik also happens to be targeting, but if you wanted to do it fast you’d have to be organized – every mistake would cost you time, even rendering her invulnerable to CC for a short period if she maxed her stacks, making the fight last even longer.

Can you honestly say that, right now, the way Defiant works, it would be a good idea to have bosses that suddenly need to be interrupted quickly? I don’t think so.

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Posted by: ilr.9675

ilr.9675

Would just be happy to get skill splits…

Skill splits also made the Mobs more interesting too, keep in mind…

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Posted by: Direksone.3867

Direksone.3867

#1: Rework Defiant

And to my eye this is the single greatest impediment to interesting boss design in the game right now.

I disagree. If you removed Defiant from all bosses right now… Nothing would change. It would be pointless to try to use any kind of control on the bosses when the best way to prevent them from doing something is just killing them. It’s not Defiant that makes control useless – it’s the fact that no boss has anything worth interrupting that makes control useless.

Imagine a boss had an attack that had to be interrupted, or it would kill the entire party. Imagine that boss has Defiant, and that we’re talking about a dungeon boss (so 5 stacks of Defiant for each interrupt). Do you know what would happen? Players would need both to use control (something they don’t need right now) and to have some coordination so people don’t waste control at the wrong time (something players also don’t need right now).

But the game is currently at the opposite extreme – control is useless since it’s always easier and better to just kill enemies. The best evidence for this is how control is mostly useless even on common enemies, those who do not have Defiant – if enemy design made interrupts actually better than just killing stuff, having control useful on anything but the bosses would even be acceptable. But as the game currently is, control is useless everywhere, not just against bosses with Defiant.

But that’s the thing. As it is, you can’t have a boss that does that. Simply put, it’s just too clunky.

First of all, something like that would be a PUG wiper right now. It’s hard enough to try to get people to understand “melee alpha”, or “don’t use CC” when a boss gets stuck, let alone “use only 4 CC, we’ll take numbers, then wait till that one attack, then CC to interrupt”. But as is Defiant is just too clunky to allow proper a proper control role, even in a coordinated group. Having to burn through 4/5 CCs arbitrarily every time you want ONE of them to land is just too clunky.

You want a good example? The Mai Trin fight from Aetherblade Retreat. A nice, different, boss fight, that is incredibly clunky because of Defiant. How many groups do you see trying to coordinate their CC so in one slot they have “available” they manage to knock Mai into the exact right area? So far I’ve seen none. I’ve seen people try to knock her around if she happens to hang around with no Defiant stacks for a bit, sometimes even accidentally overlapping attempts. Imagine how much more fun, and skill based, the fight would become if you could knock her around, with her, nonetheless, gaining resistance to it the more you did it in quick succession: If you’re patient and use your cc right it makes the fight far more controllable, instead of having to rely on Mai randomly targeting a person at least close to the person that Rorik also happens to be targeting, but if you wanted to do it fast you’d have to be organized – every mistake would cost you time, even rendering her invulnerable to CC for a short period if she maxed her stacks, making the fight last even longer.

Can you honestly say that, right now, the way Defiant works, it would be a good idea to have bosses that suddenly need to be interrupted quickly? I don’t think so.

Agreed! Mai Trin is a good, fun fight I find, but it’s kitten near impossible to get her into the lightning. It is not only Defiant that screws it over there, because my party got the stacks to 0 the whole time and then we tried to, when she would step in it, CC her to reduce the stacks.

Problems: she shadowsteps or switches targets very often (because there is no dedicated tank) and therefore very hard to even get her close to the lightning. Also, the hitbox of the lightning is bigger than the effect itself (meaning if she stands around the edges she won’t get the buff removed, eventhough she’s in the red circle).

Perhaps to ‘fix’ bosses like this is to have a tank. OH NO HE DIDN’T! What I mean is that for instance Mai Trin ‘Targets player X’ and for 10seconds you need to kite her around, making sure she gets into the Lightning and the rest of the group CC’s her and pew.

That was perhaps a bit off topic. I totally agree with you Proxy, but also with what has been said before: there are no mechanics that are worth interrupting. Perhaps Kholer’s pull could be a good one, eventhough you can avoid it easily and that should be the case. There should be more interesting mechanics that you need to interrupt. Without the ‘need’, defiant does not really matter.

I still have high hopes because there are awesome mechanics in the game already and I really hope they work on Dungeons Phase 2 soon again!

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Posted by: kRiza krimos.1637

kRiza krimos.1637

Stuning boss every time he is telegraphing his special attack would make boss fights trivial. Not a good idea.

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Posted by: Cofee.5380

Cofee.5380

I completely agree with this whole thing; especially the idea of spiders running around on the roof of a cave.

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Posted by: Safer Saviour.9685

Safer Saviour.9685

How fantastic to see a critical topic with some constructive advice! I think your ideas are most certainly worth exploring and experimenting with. As someone who mains a Necromancer, I’ve long wanted the Defiant status looked at in more detail as, like you, I feel that it is destructive to variety in its current state.

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

What an awesome thread, thank you.

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Posted by: gurugeorge.9857

gurugeorge.9857

Very positive ideas, +1

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Posted by: Shriketalon.1937

Shriketalon.1937

Extremely well written analysis, Proxy. Kudos.

Pretty much full agreement for everything you’ve said. Defiant must die for PvE to thrive, and the more variation and improvement the better.

If I may expand on two things in this thread, I definitely agree about the added variation in creatures, and there’s a way to manage it that already exists within the game: the Tar Elemental. This brilliantly designed blob has a nifty feature that causes it to pulse AoE damage when affected by burning. The exact same tech could be applied to many different mobs. A skittish creature might be extremely vulnerable to fear (enhanced duration) but gain evasion while fleeing, thus causing fear to be a powerful way to shut down single targets in the fight. A massive machine might be unshakable, but forced movement effects break off parts and reduce its armor. A high toughness/low vitality character could be virtually immune to direct damage, but shares the pain of its conditions with its foes. Emergent mechanics that use the core conditions and effects and expands upon them will allow endless enemy variety without sacrificing the elegant simplicity of the current system.

As for interruption and the possibility of stunlocking, that is also pretty easily dealt with by improving how bosses activate their attacks. For instance…

-During pulse attacks, each pulse would have to be interrupted individually.
-Interrupting a homing projectile attack could cause it to misfire and hit a random location.
-A charge up move would be cut off by interruption, making the attack weaker.
-Frustration could build in certain monsters the longer they went without hurting anyone (kiting or interruption). After a certain amount of stacks, they become Enraged for a short time, moving and attacking faster with immunity to control conditions.
-Interrupting certain moves may cause them to hurt friend and foe alike when they fire.
-Some monsters may be made of multiple body parts rendered as individual creatures (multiheaded hydra, for instance). Control effects only apply to the individual part.

Etc. There are plenty of clever ways to ensure that stunlocking is impossible without rendering control completely pointless. The more intelligent the foe’s design, the more interesting the fights will become.

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Posted by: Six.8051

Six.8051

A friend introduced me to a hack’n’slash “action combat” game called Vindictus before GW2 went into beta, and I remember boss fights being far more engaging than any content in GW2. Unfortunately, when I saw previews of GW2’s boss combat prior to release, I figured the fights would be more dynamic and challenging than Vindictus, but I was wrong. However, I think some of the elements that make Vind’s fights more engaging can help with GW2’s pve encounters:

- requires proper dodge timing for 1-shot boss abilities and group coordination to keep everyone alive during the encounter
- bosses have random attack patterns occasionally throughout the fight
- some have a secondary element required to defeat the bosses: throwing spears to slow rampaging bosses, using catapults to stun or stop boss healing/damaging abilities, shooting large harpoon ballistas to pull flying bosses to the ground to attack.
- multiple phase fights that sometimes increase the difficulty as the phases progress
- some bosses could have their armor broken off by targeting a specific area of their body for extra loot drops and achievements unique to that boss

Anyhow, I see a lot of great suggestions on here, and If Anet can make more fights like the Aetherblade living story dungeon, I think PvE bosses/encounters would be much better for it.

(edited by Six.8051)

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Posted by: ProxyDamage.9826

ProxyDamage.9826

Stuning boss every time he is telegraphing his special attack would make boss fights trivial. Not a good idea.

You’re right, if that’s what this degenerates into. But there’s no reason for that. Having attacks that you should interrupt isn’t the same as every battle being about interrupting the one big windup.

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Posted by: Direksone.3867

Direksone.3867

Stuning boss every time he is telegraphing his special attack would make boss fights trivial. Not a good idea.

You’re right, if that’s what this degenerates into. But there’s no reason for that. Having attacks that you should interrupt isn’t the same as every battle being about interrupting the one big windup.

Exactemundo. Let’s take WoW here prepare for flamewars. You can say what you want about WoW, but they have a lot of brilliant encounters in the game. There you NEED to interrupt things otherwise you will wipe. The boss won’t get trivial if it still has other mechanics that require dodging etc. etc. But there are so many instances in other MMO’s where you NEED to interrupt/stun/silence/dispell whatever the boss is throwing at you in order to survive. It would actually give ‘CCers’ some meaning, because there is no ‘CC’ role, because you can’t CC.

Defiant needs to be reworked, perhaps it doesn’t work for all bosses, but most definately with most of them, Mai Trin being a good example imo.

Blood And Metal is a guild on Gunnars Hold that is all about metal, punk,hard rock etc.. Join us!

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Posted by: ProxyDamage.9826

ProxyDamage.9826

Exactemundo. Let’s take WoW here prepare for flamewars. You can say what you want about WoW, but they have a lot of brilliant encounters in the game. There you NEED to interrupt things otherwise you will wipe. The boss won’t get trivial if it still has other mechanics that require dodging etc. etc. But there are so many instances in other MMO’s where you NEED to interrupt/stun/silence/dispell whatever the boss is throwing at you in order to survive. It would actually give ‘CCers’ some meaning, because there is no ‘CC’ role, because you can’t CC.

Defiant needs to be reworked, perhaps it doesn’t work for all bosses, but most definately with most of them, Mai Trin being a good example imo.

Hey, for all the things I don’t like about WoW, they did make some interesting boss encounters. Especially in a game without the typical “trinity”, having other, also relevant, roles outside of “DPS” and the occasional “utility” (i.e.: mesmer) would be quite the boost for PvE.

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Posted by: kRiza krimos.1637

kRiza krimos.1637

Changing how defiant works would require changing EVERY boss encounter in game. That is awful lot of work.

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Posted by: Xenon.4537

Xenon.4537

I kind of like your idea for defiant. The only thing that worries me is it seems like it would promote mindless zergy CC spam. The current system is designed with the idea that the team must work together to strip stacks and use the best CC once those stacks are gone. For example it may be best for a mesmer to use diversion (3 stuns, removes 3 stacks) then some warriors remove the last 2 stacks with a hammer or something, and then a necro specced for fear can hit the boss with a strong 2-3 second fear. If the team coordinates and repeats this process through the fight, they can CC the boss every 20-30 seconds which makes a big difference in some cases. Your suggestion is basically a form of simple diminishing returns and removes the need for this type of team timing. Removal of teamwork means more tank/spank/zerg which means more boring gameplay overall. Yes it would make control builds more viable, but it would diminish the importance of tactics and active thinking.

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Posted by: Gnat.9405

Gnat.9405

The only thing that poses a problem for your defiant idea, as good as it is, mind you, is that the skill works similarly for 5 man dungeon bosses and open world encounters. The updated Defiant mechanic of yours is a lot more tolling for a group of 5 but in open world where there are hundred of players zerging a boss the effect is negligible. If they used a different mechanic for dungeon bosses than they did for world event bosses than it could work.

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Posted by: Direksone.3867

Direksone.3867

Exactemundo. Let’s take WoW here prepare for flamewars. You can say what you want about WoW, but they have a lot of brilliant encounters in the game. There you NEED to interrupt things otherwise you will wipe. The boss won’t get trivial if it still has other mechanics that require dodging etc. etc. But there are so many instances in other MMO’s where you NEED to interrupt/stun/silence/dispell whatever the boss is throwing at you in order to survive. It would actually give ‘CCers’ some meaning, because there is no ‘CC’ role, because you can’t CC.

Defiant needs to be reworked, perhaps it doesn’t work for all bosses, but most definately with most of them, Mai Trin being a good example imo.

Hey, for all the things I don’t like about WoW, they did make some interesting boss encounters. Especially in a game without the typical “trinity”, having other, also relevant, roles outside of “DPS” and the occasional “utility” (i.e.: mesmer) would be quite the boost for PvE.

Exactly! That’s what I liked about WoW when I played it years back: the mechanics. There’s nothing wrong with taking things that work well from other games, adapting it to your game and make it even more awesome! Because the combat in GW2 has SO much potential! I played SWTOR last week and it was a lot more boring, mostly because of the combat!

Blood And Metal is a guild on Gunnars Hold that is all about metal, punk,hard rock etc.. Join us!

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Posted by: Aden Celeste.3650

Aden Celeste.3650

Im hoping Anet takes a look at this post… It is very interesting.

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Posted by: Aphotic Vanguard.2485

Aphotic Vanguard.2485

Fantastic job OP. I honestly believe these are intelligent ideas that have the potential to evolve PvE combat from the rather platitudinous “tank and spank” it has become.

Keep up the good work

Please pay attention Anet!

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Posted by: ProxyDamage.9826

ProxyDamage.9826

Im hoping Anet takes a look at this post… It is very interesting.

They’re looking. It’s one of the reasons I bother making these kinds of threads (whereas in most other games I just don’t bother). They’ve proven time and again that they do read the forums, even if they don’t have the time to answer to everyone individually.

Whether they agree with me or not, is a whole different issue entirely, that we might never find out.

Cheers.