Guild Wars 2

(Part 2)

ANet knows this, and for that, they sell MF boosts and even included a nice little permanent 200% MF bonus on the southsun event (and a pathetic gold find boost… why? Even if it made millions, you can’t buy the skins with money).

And then, on the other side, you have diminishing returns, which start becoming evident within less than 1 hour of play and you nerf farming spots whenever they’re found. I’ve done enough farming since this event started to start noticing the patterns in the DR system, and when I start “fresh”, with almost 400% MF, I find something in almost every drop. A green, a T5 material, a blue… something. Almost no junk or whites. Before an hour elapses I’m starting to find junk or nothing in most kills. This is consistent behavior. It hasn’t just happened “once” or to myself only. You sell 1 hour MF boosts ffs, and your DR kicks in before that…

And we have dungeons… You need hundreds of tokens for each piece of gear, each run gives you around 66-69 tokens, and you only get rewarded for each path once a day per character…

And I haven’t forgotten “Ascended”. Originally designed to appease the vertical progression crowd along with fractals, they’re slowly bleeding into the rest of the world and, as BiS, forcing you to keep up… No, 5 to 10% stat increase is not kittening trivial in WvW…

This is all from the company that said, and I quote: “We do not make grindy games”. Really now? What game are you making then? Cause I’d love to play it.

So, Arena Net, what do you want? You need to decide on where you’re going with your game’s design… Do we have to grind or not? If you want us to grind, then you can’t also punish us for grinding. If you don’t want us to grind, then you can’t force us to grind to acquire content…

Personally I’d prefer it if you stuck to your original statement, the one that lured me into the game, of no grind. That’s my thing, and this is your game. But if you do want to have grind, then you need your game’s mechanics to accommodate it.

Cheers.

I can see where you’re coming from. From the point of view of someone who sees getting stuff in a timely manner an issue, this is all problematical. But some players don’t play that way and don’t see that schizophrenia you’re talking about.

I’m pretty sure the percentage of players actually actively working on a legendary (instead of passively working on it) is probably a lot smaller than most people would believe. It’s just out of range of most people so they don’t really think about it. Instead, they do what they find fun and as they go they start accumulating stuff. Not because they’re trying to, but because that’s what happens. And you know, a year down the road, they have a bunch of stuff and then think, maybe now I’ll start my legendary.

You act as if the legendary is being forced on you. The legendary is something you choose to do. HOW you choose to do it is what makes the difference. These things were designed to be ultra long term goals, not the focus of everything you want to do.

Armor sets in dungeons? The same thing. If you do the same dungeon every day for weeks, of course you’ll be sick of it. If you do it once a week and five months later have what you want, you likely won’t be…or at least not nearly as sick of it.

This is where the problem exists in the game. It doesn’t cater to people who are focused on loot. I caters to people who aren’t. Until you understand that, the game will seem to be schizophrenic.

For me, attaining a Legendary is a long-term goal. And I mean long-term. My style of play is to enjoy the game (probably frivolously to you), and slowly gather items I may need in the future. I don’t farm or run dungeons, it just isn’t my thing. I don’t feel forced to buy gems or grind anything. Again, for me, it’s a game, and I just enjoy it. So, the model works for me. I really like Living Story, always something new to do, if I feel so inclined, so the way the game works suits me. I may be in the minority, or I may not. Still (for me) so far, so good. =)

ProxyDamage.9826:

When the only way to attain that content is either through very low odds random chance and/or through attaining a gigantic laundry list of rare items, you’re forced to grind the game – regardless of how you do it.

I guess that the precise problem you (and many others) have with the game – you don’t seem to grasp an idea of acumulating these thing, through months/years of a normal playing. When mats and gold just drops in by accident, when you’re doing something that is fun to you. And the legendary is not to be focused, it’s something to be earned after a long long time of playing, aside from the fun you take from a game.

You might of course not agree to this philosophy, and most likely you won’t, but it’s not a game design’s problem. It’s you and your attitude. Apparently, you chose a wrong game to play.

EDIT: Focusing-too-much seems to be a problem in general gaming nowadays. Is there anyone who play their games purely for fun yet?

dont get? Think that way, the game has 1 big pve objective, Legendaries.

Oh look, the /thread reply.

There is no “1 big pve objective”. It’s purely based on what you want from the game experience. To think that every player has the same ultimate goal of grinding for legendary stuff in pve is moronic. Play the game how you want to play. If you like the super flashy super fancy legendary, then suck it up and understand that you will have to work for it (in game or real life if you are desperate lol).

CaakEE.7109:

Shirogatsu.3150:

I think game isn’t the problem. The problem is players who want EVERYTHING AND NOW. I have 800 hrs and I never ran into such problems. I have exotic sets of armor and weapon with no farm gameplay at all. One week – few sets from dungeons with stats I want.
I’m really don’t get all those whining and crying.

dont get? Think that way, the game has 1 big pve objective, Legendaries.

What do you need to make a legendary? Gold.

How do you get Gold? Farming.

Where? CoF or Flip the AH, if you try to farm T6 mats or lodestones you gonna waste your time.

Well, you just don’t get this game.
RPGg objective – finish the game(And enjoy the game by the way)
MMORPG – get the most cool equipment
GW2 – have fun. Do what YOU want to do, you are not forced to do this “objective” It’s YOUR personal objective. Hard and expensive.
Btw, I dont farm gold. I have enough gold from fotm, dungeons, wvw and guild missions. And I playing them just because I have fun from doing them

Shirogatsu.3150:

CaakEE.7109:

Shirogatsu.3150:

I think game isn’t the problem. The problem is players who want EVERYTHING AND NOW. I have 800 hrs and I never ran into such problems. I have exotic sets of armor and weapon with no farm gameplay at all. One week – few sets from dungeons with stats I want.
I’m really don’t get all those whining and crying.

dont get? Think that way, the game has 1 big pve objective, Legendaries.

What do you need to make a legendary? Gold.

How do you get Gold? Farming.

Where? CoF or Flip the AH, if you try to farm T6 mats or lodestones you gonna waste your time.

Well, you just don’t get this game.
RPGg objective – finish the game(And enjoy the game by the way)
MMORPG – get the most cool equipment
GW2 – have fun. Do what YOU want to do, you are not forced to do this “objective” It’s YOUR personal objective. Hard and expensive.
Btw, I dont farm gold. I have enough gold from fotm, dungeons, wvw and guild missions. And I playing them just because I have fun from doing them

I want to make a legendary, not forced to it but want to.

how do you make it right now? CoF.

you cant do what you want if your objective is Gold, because Anet is forcing you to farm 1 dungeon over and over again by removing every single profitable spot.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Additionally you shouldn’t tell people how they play the game. Some people can only play a little every day. Others can only play a lot on select days. Forcing one method of playing the game in detriment of all the others is, again, bad design.

Maybe you shouldn’t tell how Anet should run its game then.

I am the type of player who likes to do everything I can. Getting something new and flat out acquiring anything is what lets me have any fun in this game. RNG ruined that. Now if I go out and do anything it will start feeling like a grind because the reward in doing everything goes away minutes after I start.

Runescape, which is the grindiest kittening game I know of, rewards me even though I spend 10 hours on one skill because there is always something more I can access every time I level up. The only reason I get on now is to farm for harvesting nodes so I can get my Cooking skill up on my alt and check on my guild.

My guild is also suffering because the current status of GW2 makes bigger guilds with perma-buffs and constant activities more appealing than small, casual/friendly guilds. I am having a problem trying to gather up the cash for [Drinks for the Week!] because my members are poor as kitten. I am scraping for cash as well.

It would be nice if Anet perfected their game before they tried “Transcending” it.

penatbater.4710:

ProxyDamage.9826:

Additionally you shouldn’t tell people how they play the game. Some people can only play a little every day. Others can only play a lot on select days. Forcing one method of playing the game in detriment of all the others is, again, bad design.

Maybe you shouldn’t tell how Anet should run its game then.

That’s right. They’re doing a great job at shooting themselves in the foot all by themselves. With the decisions month after month, sounds like pandemonium there. When the new MMOs hit the market, that’s when we’re gonna see how well they run their game.

Well since we’ve already gone through most of the trite statements made by ‘the fans’, I’ll just say this:

GW2 is a casual MMO made by and for people that enjoy things at face value, and never go further than skin deep in anything, least of all critical analysis.

Anet’s been consistent enough with nerfing of efficient farming and other things that might get you ahead, yet seems to be completely uncaring when it comes to class balancing, interface improvements and other core aspects of their game.

My advice? Quit, because clearly, “you just don’t get this game.”

Villious.8530:

penatbater.4710:

ProxyDamage.9826:

Additionally you shouldn’t tell people how they play the game. Some people can only play a little every day. Others can only play a lot on select days. Forcing one method of playing the game in detriment of all the others is, again, bad design.

Maybe you shouldn’t tell how Anet should run its game then.

That’s right. They’re doing a great job at shooting themselves in the foot all by themselves. With the decisions month after month, sounds like pandemonium there. When the new MMOs hit the market, that’s when we’re gonna see how well they run their game.

You realize that exactly this same thing with slight variation will be on the forums of whatever the next game you play don’t you? Every single game I have ever played has had this stated in forums and every game I play in the future will have this in forums.

Villious.8530:

penatbater.4710:

ProxyDamage.9826:

Additionally you shouldn’t tell people how they play the game. Some people can only play a little every day. Others can only play a lot on select days. Forcing one method of playing the game in detriment of all the others is, again, bad design.

Maybe you shouldn’t tell how Anet should run its game then.

That’s right. They’re doing a great job at shooting themselves in the foot all by themselves. With the decisions month after month, sounds like pandemonium there. When the new MMOs hit the market, that’s when we’re gonna see how well they run their game.

Aye. I look forward to that day as well.

There is a difference between playing specific content, even repeatedly, and farming. If you are playing the content you are doing so for the enjoyment of the content and to have fun, and as a bonus you get some rewards.

Farming is playing content solely for the sake of the rewards and the content is seen as an annoying barrier to your goal. People who do this see the game as a grind as they try and plow past the annoying content so they can get their reward...only to later find out that the only thing to do with any rewards in the game is to play and enjoy the content but after grinding and farming they are usually left with only bitterness and complaints.

Just one man’s perspective.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Vayne.8563:

I can see where you’re coming from. From the point of view of someone who sees getting stuff in a timely manner an issue, this is all problematical. But some players don’t play that way and don’t see that schizophrenia you’re talking about.

I’m pretty sure the percentage of players actually actively working on a legendary (instead of passively working on it) is probably a lot smaller than most people would believe. It’s just out of range of most people so they don’t really think about it. Instead, they do what they find fun and as they go they start accumulating stuff. Not because they’re trying to, but because that’s what happens. And you know, a year down the road, they have a bunch of stuff and then think, maybe now I’ll start my legendary.

You act as if the legendary is being forced on you. The legendary is something you choose to do. HOW you choose to do it is what makes the difference. These things were designed to be ultra long term goals, not the focus of everything you want to do.

Armor sets in dungeons? The same thing. If you do the same dungeon every day for weeks, of course you’ll be sick of it. If you do it once a week and five months later have what you want, you likely won’t be…or at least not nearly as sick of it.

This is where the problem exists in the game. It doesn’t cater to people who are focused on loot. I caters to people who aren’t. Until you understand that, the game will seem to be schizophrenic.

Vayne I’m not going to insult us both so I’m just going to be honest: I’m really not in the mood for your blind fanboy/girlism. I don’t know if you’re married or related to someone in ANet, or just became enamored by them, but I’ve seen you “discuss” this kind of things in these forums and it’s pointless to talk to you.

I’ll offer you one polite chance, since it is indeed my topic, and if you start going in circles I’ll just do what I normally do and ignore you.

When you have content in a game it’s safe to say that it is expected that people will want to attain that content. When the only way to attain that content is either through very low odds random chance and/or through attaining a gigantic laundry list of rare items, you’re forced to grind the game – regardless of how you do it. When you also have other mechanics in the game that actively impede that, that is bad game design. No "if"s, "and"s or "but"s. That’s like having you run a marathon then forcing you to wear lead and stone shoes.

Additionally you shouldn’t tell people how they play the game. Some people can only play a little every day. Others can only play a lot on select days. Forcing one method of playing the game in detriment of all the others is, again, bad design.

Seems like a lot of people agree with what I have to say. Anyone who says that people who disagree with me are blind fan boys are not worth listening to. Because they’re saying agree with me, or you’re completely wrong.

Other people seem to get it. You, and those like you, don’t. Which is okay. Not everyone has to get every game.

I will get great pleasure from you ignoring me, by the way. Because you’re not civil. But it’s okay. Others have already said pretty much what I’ve said. You can respond to them instead.

penatbater.4710:

Villious.8530:

penatbater.4710:

ProxyDamage.9826:

Additionally you shouldn’t tell people how they play the game. Some people can only play a little every day. Others can only play a lot on select days. Forcing one method of playing the game in detriment of all the others is, again, bad design.

Maybe you shouldn’t tell how Anet should run its game then.

That’s right. They’re doing a great job at shooting themselves in the foot all by themselves. With the decisions month after month, sounds like pandemonium there. When the new MMOs hit the market, that’s when we’re gonna see how well they run their game.

Aye. I look forward to that day as well.

I look forward to that day too. The new MMOs hitting the market that is. A whole slew of sandbox feature games will be coming out over the next year. That’s where player interest is looking to be right now too. It’s gonna be glorious.

@ProxyDamage.9826
You realize that right from the get go Anet’s stance on Legendaries was “It should take players a long time to get” right? Nearly every MMO has this sort of ‘long term’ goal that players usually HAVE to do to stay competitive (getting the BIS gear that just got released) and so on and so forth.

In GW2, the only reason you NEED a legendary outside of bragging rights is if you happen to be a completionist. I don’t like it, but I understand their reasoning for it – to keep it as a long term goal. There are people out there who, without having a purpose to farm, will no longer find a game fun – this aspect is geared towards those people. Personally, I don’t buy into the whole farm forever and ever to get an item bit – so I just don’t do it. Same goes for any of the Mystic Toilet’s craftable items: I’d love a Mjolnir, but I don’t have the patience to farm 350 charged lodestones to do it – but I also don’t go and whine about it, I just move on to doing other things.

The RNG tickets in the RNG boxes is bullkitten, but at the same time so many people buy them (either from enjoying the thrill of gambling or whatever inconceivable reason) that to say Anet shouldn’t do it is nuts. From their standpoint, hundreds if not thousands of these things are selling (more so than any time they have posted individual weapon skins I’m sure), and people that complain about them are generally buyer’s remorse types who didn’t get what they wanted because its Super Rare (and stated as such). Should they change it to having the ticket buyable for a higher cost, while still allowing a person to buy/attempt to farm the RNG crates? Sure, but they haven’t gotten that far yet.

Diminishing Returns is there for the intent on helping cull mindkitten tting – because a bot will just sit in one spot killing one type of enemy all day long. As an actual human player, if you start seeing a noticeable DR hit, then it’s your queue to go somewhere else in the world. That’s the purpose of DR – to get you to do more than just sit in one spot the entire time you play.

Your complaint towards the casual level of gaming is uncalled for- if someone only plays for an hour a day, or just one day a week, they are still capable of having fun doing so. On an alt I made, I played no more than two hours a day inconsistently off and on for a few weeks and was still completely capable of having fun, getting them to top level and acquiring the specific armor designs I wanted for that character (albeit it has taken some time to save up gold for the final glove cultural design, but as an altaholic my funds are constantly getting spread between 7 different characters and different crafting professions and small guild funding). Heck, I even managed to complete a dungeon with that character with some of my friends – the only time-locked issue that really makes much of a difference, which can be planned ahead for by leaving an hour or two to do them on the weekend if you so desire to play them.

<1/2>

<2/2>
@ProxyDamage.9826
Dungeons. The token system is a bit bloated, of that I freely admit. I don’t know why they insist so much on making the numbers so large – why not just ditch a zero off of everything? It’s the same amount of time to get them (if you got 6 a run instead of 60, but everything in turn cost one zero less – 18 instead of 180), but it would also allow for the max stack size (250) to cover an entire set of dungeon gear. Now, the reasoning for tokens is so that people can use dungeon gear as a sort of bragging right. If I see a person fully decked out in Arah gear, for example, I know they have run that dungeon enough to the point that they really deserve that gear. The HIGH cost is to reflect that dungeon armor (and weapons afaik) are BIS (unless they make ascended weapons/armor, which is my personal belief they shouldn’t). If you buy the BIS stat Karma armor, its what – 44k? (fact check that, I haven’t looked but I do know its an impressive number). If you craft it it requires multiple ectos and max-tier crafting materials. It’s all a design to make you feel that you strove for something, and then are being rewarded for your efforts. If they just handed everything out for free, what point would you have to work for then? The only reason you would have to play the game is for the fun of the mechanics, which means everyone that loves loot would have no reason to play.

Game design is something everyone thinks they are a master of. I think I know game design, as do you and anyone who ever makes a comment on these forums – otherwise why would we be telling Anet to do something different? Any “goal” that is impeded by other mechanics isn’t so impeded by them that it’s impossible for any one person to do – it might take you longer to earn the stuff for a legendary or an ascended trinket or whatever, but its still possible. The think that causes the entire GW2 personal debacle is that it tries to do so much – it tries to make it so anyone can enjoy at least one aspect of the game, in doing so making it so that everyone can also hate one aspect of the game. I love playing casually for fun with friends and crafting. Someone else might hate how casual friendly the game is, wanting it to be way harder and more complex. Someone else might love the fact that they have to farm and farm to get the materials to make that legendary item, whereas I hate the idea of it.

You see what I’m saying? (BTW, none of this is to be taken as a personal attack or anything of that sort. I’m just sharing my opinions on your opinions).

Having played a very lengthy list of MMORPG’s, dating back to near-launch EverQuest, it is not difficult to understand a player’s frustration regarding whichever of the varieties of content that attracts their attention most. Since Fractals were introduced, which I still run and enjoy for the most part, there has been no new content. For a PvE-focused player (yeah we still exist), it has taken a concerted effort on my part to not get burnt out on the game that I still do enjoy.

I won’t claim to be a master of game design, or even to know a kitten thing about it, but I do know that for months I’ve been participating in limited-time events with some mediocre and/or lateral game changes being implemented. These events required developer time and energy that could have gone towards expanding the game beyond a few aesthetics and achievement points. The one exceptional piece of intermediate content, as I’m sure many will agree, was Molten Weapons Facility. To go from that to the rather pathetic Canach/Subdirector encounters does not exactly inspire too much hope.

On the PvP end of things, the only “improvements” (strong euphemism), aside from those finitely measureable WvW incentives, have been limited to sPvP – something about as closely-connected to the actual game as Super Adventure Box was. There’s nothing wrong with having an insular portion of the game to provide entertainment for people that want to experience it. There is, I believe, a problem when the development and focus on the aforementioned, glorified mini-game begins to outweigh that of the actual game by all appearances.

If you want to see what it looks like when you abandon your main player-base in order to capitulate to the masses and/or rake in as much money as possible, imagine what’s going to happen when GW2 becomes the next SWToR.

So you like dungeons and that’s your play style. The fractals is real. Molten facility is real. Everything else is a waste. I know people who like neither the fractals nor the molten facility and consider them a waste of programmer’s time.

But it’s more than that. Because guild missions ARE permanent content that at least some people seem to like, but you seem to ignore them. So fractals aren’t the only permanent content.

And yes, I’m a PVe player too, we still exist. But not every PVe player is necessarily a dungeon crawler.

I think the original poster’s argument could be improved with the following thought. In GW2 players reach the top level of equipment quite easily and then need to set their own PvE goals within the endgame. Unfortunately there seems to be a big gap in effort between the basic goals, such as achievements or stat gear, and the acquisition of rare cosmetics, minis, etc. This generally leaves players unsatisfied with the time and money spent achieving their goals in game, whatever those goals may be.

Stooperdale.3560:

I think the original poster’s argument could be improved with the following thought. In GW2 players reach the top level of equipment quite easily and then need to set their own PvE goals within the endgame. Unfortunately there seems to be a big gap in effort between the basic goals, such as achievements or stat gear, and the acquisition of rare cosmetics, minis, etc. This generally leaves players unsatisfied with the time and money spent achieving their goals in game, whatever those goals may be.

Exactly, there are plenty of alternatives to Legendary goals when it comes to shiny stuff. However, much of it is locked behind content people don’t want to participate in or is trapped through massive time sinks that require people to farm farm farm, either gold or materials or both. Hopefully soon, we’ll see that achievement point exchange/unlock thing they were talking about, least the focus might switch a bit for those oriented toward a goal instead of a legendary. Although that empty legendary spot on the character select screen really begs people to focus on that goal.

Stooperdale.3560:

I think the original poster’s argument could be improved with the following thought. In GW2 players reach the top level of equipment quite easily and then need to set their own PvE goals within the endgame. Unfortunately there seems to be a big gap in effort between the basic goals, such as achievements or stat gear, and the acquisition of rare cosmetics, minis, etc. This generally leaves players unsatisfied with the time and money spent achieving their goals in game, whatever those goals may be.

This is a valid point. However, this generally leaves SOME players dissatisfied. The reason ascended gear was introduced was to close that gap in fact, but even ascended gear is too easy to get.

Casual players who are only looking to get exotic stuff have less to complain about than hard core players who have a dearth of goals. Only the very long term legendaries are some ultra rare hard to craft skins. And these are the players hit hardest by the lack of “end game” in Guild Wars 2.

But not every player is looking for end game, and indeed, the game really wasn’t supposed to have an end game, certainly not in the traditional sense. I’ve been waiting for a long time for an MMO without an end game or at least a mandatory end game. So I’m satisfied with the product.

The problem is, if Anet institutes the mid term goals what would keep some players happy, a host of other players still start screaming “vertical progression, Anet lied!”. As a result, Anet sort of has their hands tied.

Vayne.8563:

So you like dungeons and that’s your play style. The fractals is real. Molten facility is real. Everything else is a waste. I know people who like neither the fractals nor the molten facility and consider them a waste of programmer’s time.

But it’s more than that. Because guild missions ARE permanent content that at least some people seem to like, but you seem to ignore them. So fractals aren’t the only permanent content.

And yes, I’m a PVe player too, we still exist. But not every PVe player is necessarily a dungeon crawler.

Perhaps I was a bit hasty in my response, as I am not just a dungeon crawler, or just a PvE player. I very much enjoy the addition of guild missions, and the group cohesion/coordination required for the more challenging ones like T3 bounties or guild puzzles. Keeping this in mind, it still seems like a development oversight to have a game in which equipment can even be “best-in-slot” and not have the kind of content which would keep a player coming back for more once they’ve got their full set of Arah gear, for example. My issue is not that of having absolutely nothing to do, by any means, it is more an issue of the ambiguously-proposed future changes that could allow for at least a greater variety of content to experience before slamming into that inevitable brick wall.

[edited for quotation]

Vayne.8563:

Stooperdale.3560:

I think the original poster’s argument could be improved with the following thought. In GW2 players reach the top level of equipment quite easily and then need to set their own PvE goals within the endgame. Unfortunately there seems to be a big gap in effort between the basic goals, such as achievements or stat gear, and the acquisition of rare cosmetics, minis, etc. This generally leaves players unsatisfied with the time and money spent achieving their goals in game, whatever those goals may be.

This is a valid point. However, this generally leaves SOME players dissatisfied. The reason ascended gear was introduced was to close that gap in fact, but even ascended gear is too easy to get.

Casual players who are only looking to get exotic stuff have less to complain about than hard core players who have a dearth of goals. Only the very long term legendaries are some ultra rare hard to craft skins. And these are the players hit hardest by the lack of “end game” in Guild Wars 2.

But not every player is looking for end game, and indeed, the game really wasn’t supposed to have an end game, certainly not in the traditional sense. I’ve been waiting for a long time for an MMO without an end game or at least a mandatory end game. So I’m satisfied with the product.

The problem is, if Anet institutes the mid term goals what would keep some players happy, a host of other players still start screaming “vertical progression, Anet lied!”. As a result, Anet sort of has their hands tied.

You are going in circles again Vayne. You always tell everyone farming isn’t “mandatory” and nothing in game is “mandatory” and here you are saying other games have a mandatory end game.

Well if nothing is mandatory, why is it mandatory in other games? Blind fanboyism indeed.

Oh, and don’t tell us we don’t “get” the game. That’s just another way of saying “I don’t know how to say what I have already said 40,000 times this week alone.” At least it’s a change from just copy and pasting from thread to thread.

There are plenty of creative was they can implement a set of middle term goals. I think that’s one of the vital problems here too, is the lack of feeling you’re progressing toward something.

I’ll just leave this here: http://beautifulpeoplesclub.org/index.php/blog/11/entry-325-guild-wars-2-the-banana-you-cant-peel/

Well, the game wasn’t really designed to play thousands of hours…at least I don’t think so. It was designed for a more casual crowd. That said, I have over 3000 hours, but I’m a mad altoholic and I love the open world. It’s fun for me. It’s not going to be fun for everyone…I realize that.

I do a bit of everything. I do some dungeons, some fractals, some PvP, some WvW. My latest craze is keg brawl. I’m really enjoying that. And I enjoy guild missions as well.

Most MMOs run out of content at the six month mark and companies these days throw in a lot of filler to keep people logging in. It’s never going to fly with the harder core crowd, who KNOWS it’s filler. But for the casual player it’s fine.

But since no game has made enough content in the first year to appease hard core players anyway, I’m not sure what else can be said about this.

Aeonblade.8709:

You are going in circles again Vayne. You always tell everyone farming isn’t “mandatory” and nothing in game is “mandatory” and here you are saying other games have a mandatory end game.

I have no idea the his/her intent, but saying it isn’t mandatory in this game and that is why he/she came here to get away from games that do make it mandatory is not contradictory.

Ordika.9513:

Aeonblade.8709:

You are going in circles again Vayne. You always tell everyone farming isn’t “mandatory” and nothing in game is “mandatory” and here you are saying other games have a mandatory end game.

I have no idea the his/her intent, but saying it isn’t mandatory in this game and that is why he/she came here to get away from games that do make it mandatory is not contradictory.

It’s mandatory in most other MMOs, because the entire progression path is what the game is about. That’s ALL those games are about. Here, if I want exotic armor and weapons, I can PvE, WvW, do dungeons, do open world content, do nothing but dailies and eventually I’ll have exotic armor and exotic weapons. In other games, if you dont’ do dungeons then raids, you’re locked out. You can do daily quests, but they don’t usually give you anything.

In Rift, I maxed out my planarite cap, finished all the dungeons, OUTGEARED all the dungeons and there was nothing left to do but raid. That was it. I wasn’t “forced” to raid. I was forced to either raid, quit, or do absolutely nothing, because nothing else (while I was there) could be done. I couldn’t finish zone events by myself (and no one on my server was doing them), I could do Rifts, but I’d receive no reward because I’d maxed out how much of that currency I was allowed to have and I’d already bought everything there was to buy with it, including a variety of elemental squirrel minipets) and that was it. There was nothing to do.

So yes, in Rift, you either raided or your faded…at least back then. Just the idea that I can go back to earlier zones in this game (you sorta could in Rift but nothing would attack you, because you were too high a level)…you raided or you went home.

So no, I’m not contradicting myself. Going for an item isn’t content. This game has content for those who want to hang around in the open world. Rift really didn’t (again back then anyway).

Vayne.8563:

Ordika.9513:

Aeonblade.8709:

You are going in circles again Vayne. You always tell everyone farming isn’t “mandatory” and nothing in game is “mandatory” and here you are saying other games have a mandatory end game.

I have no idea the his/her intent, but saying it isn’t mandatory in this game and that is why he/she came here to get away from games that do make it mandatory is not contradictory.

It’s mandatory in most other MMOs, because the entire progression path is what the game is about. That’s ALL those games are about. Here, if I want exotic armor and weapons, I can PvE, WvW, do dungeons, do open world content, do nothing but dailies and eventually I’ll have exotic armor and exotic weapons. In other games, if you dont’ do dungeons then raids, you’re locked out. You can do daily quests, but they don’t usually give you anything.

In Rift, I maxed out my planarite cap, finished all the dungeons, OUTGEARED all the dungeons and there was nothing left to do but raid. That was it. I wasn’t “forced” to raid. I was forced to either raid, quit, or do absolutely nothing, because nothing else (while I was there) could be done. I couldn’t finish zone events by myself (and no one on my server was doing them), I could do Rifts, but I’d receive no reward because I’d maxed out how much of that currency I was allowed to have and I’d already bought everything there was to buy with it, including a variety of elemental squirrel minipets) and that was it. There was nothing to do.

So yes, in Rift, you either raided or your faded…at least back then. Just the idea that I can go back to earlier zones in this game (you sorta could in Rift but nothing would attack you, because you were too high a level)…you raided or you went home.

So no, I’m not contradicting myself. Going for an item isn’t content. This game has content for those who want to hang around in the open world. Rift really didn’t (again back then anyway).

I still am not sure you ever played Rift. I have played since beta ,then a short break, and 4-5 months after release until now and have only raided a total of 3 times, and have had a ton of fun doing zone events, carnage quests, instant adventures, dungeons, hard modes, chronicles, chapter events, etc. Over the past 1.5 years. Never once did I feel obligated to raid to be competitive. In fact, one of my characters is decked out in raid gear and as I said, only did 3 raids. You can get raid currency in dungeons, and have always been able to, since they released the dang daily dungeon quests. Not to mention raid tier gear from open world zone event currency.

Man GW2 could learn a lot about open world content from a themepark. And you don’t see a problem with this?

Vayne.8563

So no, I’m not contradicting myself. Going for an item isn’t content. This game has content for those who want to hang around in the open world. Rift really didn’t (again back then anyway).

But for several people it is. Having a goal to play towards to, having the feeling to achieve something. I am not playing that way but I can totally understand that it becomes frustrating if someone tries to get something – and we do have items which require grinding alot of mats (no matter if optional or not) and he doesn’t get nearer because the drops are so low that you can spend ages to get everything.

What is missing here is in my opinion something inbetween. Some cosmetical items which can be achieved within a shorter time but are more than “common” exotic stuff. I think ascended doesn’t serve that purpose because it’s not cosmetic gear, it is nothing to show off “look what I did”. And I hope that we get more variety over time in general so that we have stuff which require different amounts of time.

Ordika.9513:

Aeonblade.8709:

You are going in circles again Vayne. You always tell everyone farming isn’t “mandatory” and nothing in game is “mandatory” and here you are saying other games have a mandatory end game.

I have no idea the his/her intent, but saying it isn’t mandatory in this game and that is why he/she came here to get away from games that do make it mandatory is not contradictory.

If it’s not mandatory in this game, it certainly is not mandatory in any other game. This game is built on farming, then they won’t let you. It’s the worst type of mandatory.

Aeonblade.8709:

Man GW2 could learn a lot about open world content from a themepark. And you don’t see a problem with this?

Curious, but what do you mean by this?

I feel there are tons of stuff to do in GW2

Ordika.9513:

Aeonblade.8709:

Man GW2 could learn a lot about open world content from a themepark. And you don’t see a problem with this?

Curious, but what do you mean by this?

I feel there are tons of stuff to do in GW2

I.E. in Rift you could buy the equivalent of ascended items with zone event currency.

It would be like being able to buy Ascended with Karma. So no, no one has to raid and no one is left behind because of raids. It’s a myth that raids = treadmill.

The zone events are better and zone wide, not just a small corner of a zone tucked away. Questing is more cohesive. With the last expansion they released the instant adventures and size and scope of the game world are amazing. Even with mounts it has so much land area I actually feel like I’m truly in a world, not just a piece of a continent on a world.

I could go on with how the PvE in Rift is better in nearly every aspect, and people always tend to think I’m bashing GW2. I’m not, WvW is the best PvP that has come out since DAoC and Shadowbane, but the PvE in this game sucks and is sub par. It pains me to see people miss out on real PvE content because they are worried about gear treadmills that don’t even really exist.

And before anyone jumps down my throat with a “that’s just your opinion” I know. I typed it.

Aeonblade.8709:

I could go on with how the PvE in Rift is better in nearly every aspect, and people always tend to think I’m bashing GW2.

Personally, totally disagree with you on this.

I have enjoyed DE’s better then Rifts, DE Events better then Invasions, and I even like the dungeons better (Rift dungeons where just better WoW dungeons, at least the GW2 dungeons are diff because of no trinity).

Fractals have no comparison, but I do enjoy them. Same with Instant Adventures, this is something I would like to see added here. Would be something along the line of DE Event finder, and could really breathe life into some rarely traveled zones.

Quests and Hearts while not really comparable, are so much better in GW2. If IA was never added I probably would have given up on Rift before SL, I hated questing in Rift. But Hearts are really only place holders for those who didn’t really latch onto the idea of DE+Exploration+Crafting to level as opposed to questing.

This is all opinion of course.

Aeonblade.8709:

I.E. in Rift you could buy the equivalent of ascended items with zone event currency.

I see where your going and agree, but then if comes down to path of least resistance, and once you have said gear, what is there to do if you don’t like raiding or alts (similar statements made here about what there is to do if you don’t like exploration and alts).

I never understood the argument “play the game to enjoy it because it’s supposed to be fun”. The problem I have with this is that mmo’s are never just fun to play. The game mechanics are usually completely awful. I don’t know about anyone else but clicking on an enemy and pressing the same numbers over and over again until it is dead isn’t my idea of a fun time.

MMO’s are built around the carrot on a stick. Humans like being rewarded and mmo’s do that. That’s what makes them fun, not the incredible game mechanics of spamming 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 over and over again until your enemy is dead. If I want to play an rpg just for the fun of it without good rewards being necessary I’ll play skyrim or dark souls, not guild wars 2.

Ordika.9513:

Aeonblade.8709:

I could go on with how the PvE in Rift is better in nearly every aspect, and people always tend to think I’m bashing GW2.

Personally, totally disagree with you on this.

I have enjoyed DE’s better then Rifts, DE Events better then Invasions, and I even like the dungeons better (Rift dungeons where just better WoW dungeons, at least the GW2 dungeons are diff because of no trinity).

Fractals have no comparison, but I do enjoy them. Same with Instant Adventures, this is something I would like to see added here. Would be something along the line of DE Event finder, and could really breathe life into some rarely traveled zones.

Quests and Hearts while not really comparable, are so much better in GW2. If IA was never added I probably would have given up on Rift before SL, I hated questing in Rift. But Hearts are really only place holders for those who didn’t really latch onto the idea of DE+Exploration+Crafting to level as opposed to questing.

This is all opinion of course.

Instant Adventure is something that should be in every MMO. At least this we can agree on. And I’m not much of a explorer or crafter, so obviously GW2 PvE is going to have next to nothing for a killer/achiever player. Even then I feel GW2’s crafting system needs a lot of work for me to invest time into it.

Just refer to an earlier post I made. Players like me should do the smart thing, and play their PvE on Rift and come WvW/sPvP here, because Rift has some of the worst PvP haha.

Aeonblade.8709:

Instant Adventure is something that should be in every MMO. At least this we can agree on. And I’m not much of a explorer or crafter, so obviously GW2 PvE is going to have next to nothing for a killer/achiever player. Even then I feel GW2’s crafting system needs a lot of work for me to invest time into it.

Just refer to an earlier post I made. Players like me should do the smart thing, and play their PvE on Rift and come WvW/sPvP here, because Rift has some of the worst PvP haha.

Agree with you on both IA and PvP front

Aeonblade.8709:

Ordika.9513:

Aeonblade.8709:

You are going in circles again Vayne. You always tell everyone farming isn’t “mandatory” and nothing in game is “mandatory” and here you are saying other games have a mandatory end game.

I have no idea the his/her intent, but saying it isn’t mandatory in this game and that is why he/she came here to get away from games that do make it mandatory is not contradictory.

If it’s not mandatory in this game, it certainly is not mandatory in any other game. This game is built on farming, then they won’t let you. It’s the worst type of mandatory.

Are you stating farming is mandatory in GW2? If that’s the case, I must be playing a different game. I’m not gonna brag about specifics, because I’m not good enough to brag about my accomplishments in the game, but across my 7 characters, I haven’t had to farm for anything – even with crafting professions. Of course, I also don’t care for full sets of dungeon gear, because I prefer the mix-n-match design to my armor sets. Also, I don’t want a legendary, so I don’t have to farm for that.

It’s like everyone who argues that the game is only farming with anti-farming tactics refuse to see that it isn’t all about farming. If you want me to elaborate at all, feel free to ask and I’ll do my best.

KorbanDallas.7389:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ordika.9513:

Aeonblade.8709:

You are going in circles again Vayne. You always tell everyone farming isn’t “mandatory” and nothing in game is “mandatory” and here you are saying other games have a mandatory end game.

I have no idea the his/her intent, but saying it isn’t mandatory in this game and that is why he/she came here to get away from games that do make it mandatory is not contradictory.

If it’s not mandatory in this game, it certainly is not mandatory in any other game. This game is built on farming, then they won’t let you. It’s the worst type of mandatory.

Are you stating farming is mandatory in GW2? If that’s the case, I must be playing a different game. I’m not gonna brag about specifics, because I’m not good enough to brag about my accomplishments in the game, but across my 7 characters, I haven’t had to farm for anything – even with crafting professions. Of course, I also don’t care for full sets of dungeon gear, because I prefer the mix-n-match design to my armor sets. Also, I don’t want a legendary, so I don’t have to farm for that.

It’s like everyone who argues that the game is only farming with anti-farming tactics refuse to see that it isn’t all about farming. If you want me to elaborate at all, feel free to ask and I’ll do my best.

I really don’t want you to elaborate as it’s been said before, but I appreciate the response. Some of us play 2 completely separate versions of GW2. Reminds me of Knight Online from way back when, there are like 9 different versions of that game running hahaha.

Shirogatsu.3150:

CaakEE.7109:

Shirogatsu.3150:

I think game isn’t the problem. The problem is players who want EVERYTHING AND NOW. I have 800 hrs and I never ran into such problems. I have exotic sets of armor and weapon with no farm gameplay at all. One week – few sets from dungeons with stats I want.
I’m really don’t get all those whining and crying.

dont get? Think that way, the game has 1 big pve objective, Legendaries.

What do you need to make a legendary? Gold.

How do you get Gold? Farming.

Where? CoF or Flip the AH, if you try to farm T6 mats or lodestones you gonna waste your time.

Well, you just don’t get this game.
RPGg objective – finish the game(And enjoy the game by the way)
MMORPG – get the most cool equipment
GW2 – have fun. Do what YOU want to do, you are not forced to do this “objective” It’s YOUR personal objective. Hard and expensive.
Btw, I dont farm gold. I have enough gold from fotm, dungeons, wvw and guild missions. And I playing them just because I have fun from doing them

As long as what I want to do does not involve farming, right? What you really mean is “do what ANet tells us we want to do”, because I certainly do not get to play in the manner I want.

Aeonblade.8709:

I really don’t want you to elaborate as it’s been said before, but I appreciate the response.

Alright. I just like trying to get in people’s heads sometimes, so I like to make it known that I’ll respond to the same curiosity I have without much of a fight.
Edit:
I think it’s like that with most MMOs. Heck, by default I think every online RPG has at least two versions – the game players and the role players.

Phaedryn.3698:

As long as what I want to do does not involve farming, right? What you really mean is “do what ANet tells us we want to do”, because I certainly do not get to play in the manner I want.

Actually, if what you want to do is farm, then you’re in luck! They made it so you have to farm even MORE to get the things you wanted to farm for! Actually, if you look at it like that, it makes it confusing as to why farmers hate the fact that it takes more farming to get farmed things when they enjoy farming so much.

KorbanDallas.7389:

Phaedryn.3698:

As long as what I want to do does not involve farming, right? What you really mean is “do what ANet tells us we want to do”, because I certainly do not get to play in the manner I want.

Actually, if what you want to do is farm, then you’re in luck! They made it so you have to farm even MORE to get the things you wanted to farm for! Actually, if you look at it like that, it makes it confusing as to why farmers hate the fact that it takes more farming to get farmed things when they enjoy farming so much.

As far as to answer this, farming is fun, and relaxing for an hour or two, sometimes even 3. Farming the same material 250 times with a 1% drop rate is hundreds of hours of farming, and you may get unlucky and have to farm for several hundred more hours. There is a large difference in farming for fun and being forced to farm for a random or even no reward.

Vayne.8563:

I can see where you’re coming from. From the point of view of someone who sees getting stuff in a timely manner an issue, this is all problematical. But some players don’t play that way and don’t see that schizophrenia you’re talking about.

do u maybe know how much playtime is required to get all stacks of t6 materials in not timely manner?

i agree with OP.

Aeonblade.8709:

KorbanDallas.7389:

Phaedryn.3698:

As long as what I want to do does not involve farming, right? What you really mean is “do what ANet tells us we want to do”, because I certainly do not get to play in the manner I want.

Actually, if what you want to do is farm, then you’re in luck! They made it so you have to farm even MORE to get the things you wanted to farm for! Actually, if you look at it like that, it makes it confusing as to why farmers hate the fact that it takes more farming to get farmed things when they enjoy farming so much.

As far as to answer this, farming is fun, and relaxing for an hour or two, sometimes even 3. Farming the same material 250 times with a 1% drop rate is hundreds of hours of farming, and you may get unlucky and have to farm for several hundred more hours. There is a large difference in farming for fun and being forced to farm for a random or even no reward.

Yeah, pretty much this. The truly sad/ironic part is that I do not need to do it, I just enjoy doing it. Yet ANet has done everything they can to tell people like me to find a different game.

dadamowsky.4692:

ProxyDamage.9826:

When the only way to attain that content is either through very low odds random chance and/or through attaining a gigantic laundry list of rare items, you’re forced to grind the game – regardless of how you do it.

I guess that the precise problem you (and many others) have with the game – you don’t seem to grasp an idea of acumulating these thing, through months/years of a normal playing. When mats and gold just drops in by accident, when you’re doing something that is fun to you. And the legendary is not to be focused, it’s something to be earned after a long long time of playing, aside from the fun you take from a game.

A hint for you – you will never be able to attain legendary through “months/years of normal playing”. There’s just no way to get enough lodestones etc through “accidental drops”. You have to either farm for them, or farm for gold to buy them. And while there is a chance you might get a precursor (and not any precursor, but the specific one you want, at that) from normal drops, it’s so unlikely that you should fully expect it to never happen for you.

Aeonblade.8709:

As far as to answer this, farming is fun, and relaxing for an hour or two, sometimes even 3. Farming the same material 250 times with a 1% drop rate is hundreds of hours of farming, and you may get unlucky and have to farm for several hundred more hours. There is a large difference in farming for fun and being forced to farm for a random or even no reward.

Honestly, I’d prefer all crafting to be done via a Monster Hunter-esque format, but even that had ‘parts’ that would drop more rarely than others. I think it’s only there for the sake of making things feel more rare (which I kind of hate, but kind of understand). As it is I agree that it takes too much effort to get the materials to make them, but my complaint is more that we have a genie stuck in a well craft these things, instead of having things player-crafted. I was always under the impression that the weapon should be legendary through things being formed around it, but it’s too late in the game for them to completely retool things such that a weapon has experience that levels as you use it, and then has a few bonus components that you need to find (however abouts) to ascend it up the cosmetical food chain – so I gave up on that idea.

I also totally know about bad luck. My main character didn’t even get a rare drop until after they gave out guaranteed rares from world events (and he had hundreds of hours on him by that point). That’s part of why I don’t care about making a legendary weapon (hugely luck based), the rest is I just play it to kill some time and have fun with friends as opposed to any actual structured goals that most have.