Guild Wars 2

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

I still think theres a bug, or at least I hope so because only a complete moron would think that people are going to keep playing a game where you can kill over a hundred mobs and get mostly junk. Especially when the actual killing itself is so boring.

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

And its succeeding, by being complete garbage…

Which will encourage others not to make the same stupid mistakes…thereby improving the genre.

the uprising.6317:

Vayne.8563:

Drakonis.4579:

Recluse.6740:

tolunart.2095:

Recluse.6740:

snip

Except he’s not, the devs are. It just happens that he (and myself) already play the game the way the devs intended it to be played, and it turns out that when you do that you tend to be a lot happier with the game than when you expect it to work like every other MMO ever.

There is never a wrong way to play a game that is supposed to be a living world. Yes there are simple moral rules you must follow, but the game is open to play like you want, or at least it was suppose to be. If I choose to mine copper from level 1 – 80, that is my right to do so, but with the way things happen with this game, mining copper would get nerfed so as not to be helpful in my quest to be the Copper King.

I am happy you happen to fit the mold the devs want. You are apparently one of the chosen ones when it comes to this game, as you have nailed it. (applause)

I will state this once again so you might understand it this time. Please read this part carefully, as I truly mean every word of it. I …… LIKE ….. THIS …… GAME!!!!!!!

I do not expect it to be like every other MMO, and is the reason I am here. And I am here trying to make sure it does not turn into every other MMO. Because sooner or later they will introduce more legendary skins, and maybe legendary armors, and the grind will be back on again. And if things are not learned now, on how players play this game in all ways and forms, we will run into the same thing again, and that is something I know we all want to avoid.

Very good post. You nailed exactly how I feel about this game. Keep it up.

Every game has parameters. Every game has boundaries. What you’re obviously looking for is a sandbox game, not a themepark game. Guild Wars 2 is clearly themepark and thus will have more boundaries than a game that is sandbox.

But you know, with the exception of Eve, most sandbox games have done very badly. There are reasons for it. In a sandbox game, you have to entertain yourself. Most people today need to be entertained.

The free thinker in online games is the exception, not the rule. And, as mentioned before, Anet has reasons for making the changes it makes. Whether you like or agree with them, they don’t do things for zero reason. So if you don’t know the reasons, you either believe Anet is doing stuff just to kitten you and players like you off, or maybe there’s a method to their madness.

I don’t think they do things randomly. I think that some people simply want things there way, and that’s not always possible. Things don’t always go my way either.

You can’t have a themepark endgame without progression. Period. Remember GW 1 had progression from Factions onward. It can be progression that resets every time there’s an expansion or something, but there needs to be a treadmill. Otherwise you have the problem Anet is having now that ppl run through content and then there is nothing for them to do. Other than “make your own goals”, lol, you can do this with literally any game that’s not meant to have an endgame, including single player games, that’s just a pathetic copout.

Just muddled core game design is all I have to say, devs want to have their cake and eat it too.

I couldn’t disagree with you more. You’re not thinking like a casual. There’s so much content in this game, that many casual players are overwhelmed by choice. It’s the hard core burn through everything players that REQUIRE end game.

Would you believe most people that played WoW didn’t play end game either. It’s a much smaller percentage of the playerbase than you think that craves end game. You happen to be one of the and it sucks for you, but for a lot of people, we’ve been waiting for a game without end game.

pricer.5091:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

And its succeeding, by being complete garbage…

Which will encourage others not to make the same stupid mistakes…thereby improving the genre.

News flash! Pricer doesn’t like the game so it’s “complete garbage”.

Ummm no. You don’t like it. Therefore it’s a game not for you. Complete garbage is like landfill. Very few people enjoy landfill. Many people enjoy Guild Wars 2, so it’s not complete garbage. For many people, it’s the best MMO they’ve played. It’s simply not YOUR MMO and that’s okay.

It doesn’t change the fact that a whole lot of people really like this game…flaws and all.

pricer.5091:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

And its succeeding, by being complete garbage…

Which will encourage others not to make the same stupid mistakes…thereby improving the genre.

I respectfully disagree. Guild Wars 2 is one of the best MMOs I’ve ever played (second only to the original Guild Wars) for exactly the reasons you call it garbage.

Funny how opinions work isn’t it?

I couldn’t disagree with you more. You’re not thinking like a casual. There’s so much content in this game, that many casual players are overwhelmed by choice. It’s the hard core burn through everything players that REQUIRE end game.

Would you believe most people that played WoW didn’t play end game either. It’s a much smaller percentage of the playerbase than you think that craves end game. You happen to be one of the and it sucks for you, but for a lot of people, we’ve been waiting for a game without end game.

Absolutely correct! This game offers A LOT of content for the casual player. I have been playing since Pre-Release and still haven´t explored the whole world and only one of my chars is max-lv. I think ANet focuses on these kind of players with the game design and offers the lottery for hardcore players who want everything in order to finance the game.

pricer.5091:

And its succeeding, by being complete garbage…

And that’s an opinion. My opinion would be opposite to yours. Fortunately we have such a wide market that everyone can chose a game that they like, right? Or are you forced to play this game that you don’t like?

Arkham Creed.7358:

pricer.5091:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

And its succeeding, by being complete garbage…

Which will encourage others not to make the same stupid mistakes…thereby improving the genre.

I respectfully disagree. Guild Wars 2 is one of the best MMOs I’ve ever played (second only to the original Guild Wars) for exactly the reasons you call it garbage.

Funny how opinions work isn’t it?

I didnt GIVE any reaons for it being garbage. But, sigh, if you really want to know.

I used to like the game, in fact I still like WvW and running about with my guild. But there is NO reward for playing. There is no carrot. You are being endlessly driven to the cash shop and the developers are greedy and deaf.

In addition, it is the worst game I have ever played for actual bugs, in particular class skill ones, which lets face it are pretty important, not being fixed despite complaints being made since the game began.

So its good game….but ruined by poor customer support, not listening and greed.

Mirta.5029:

pricer.5091:

And its succeeding, by being complete garbage…

And that’s an opinion. My opinion would be opposite to yours. Fortunately we have such a wide market that everyone can chose a game that they like, right? Or are you forced to play this game that you don’t like?

I invested a lot of time AND money in this game…back when loot drops were fair and you felt fairly rewarded for your time. So yes, for now, I would rather keep playing and they FIX the problems they have introduced.

Not thakittens any of your business either way…

Vayne.8563 you are so blind.

pricer.5091:

I used to like the game, in fact I still like WvW and running about with my guild. But there is NO reward for playing. There is no carrot. You are being endlessly driven to the cash shop and the developers are greedy and deaf.

I like the fact that there is no carrot to chase. The thing about those carrots is you can never catch them. They are just a lure; a trick. They are used to keep you marching along with your tunnel vision while your master works you for everything he can get, and leaves you to die in the dust when your strength has run out. Carrots are a predatory tactic used to keep you paying a subscription fee, nothing more. Likewise I have never been driven to the cash shop for anything. I’ve spent a grand total of sixty dollars on this game; the initial box cost, and yet I’ve been playing since beta and continue to enjoy it.

pricer.5091:

I invested a lot of time AND money in this game…back when loot drops were fair and you felt fairly rewarded for your time. So yes, for now, I would rather keep playing and they FIX the problems they have introduced.

Not thakittens any of your business either way…

Well I played since the early start (bought the limited addition with Rythlock statue) and I don’t remember loot being that awesome and now being that bad. Also if you want to speak about loot, please do so. I wouldn’t mind more shinnies dropping anyway. However you started talking about the game needing gear progression.

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Brilliant.

Anet should thank the stars they already got our money.

No; it doesn’t. And no one ever said it did or would. Games are systems, they are math, and there is a right way and a wrong way to do that math. And it just so happens that the “typical” way to do that math in other MMOs is the wrong way here. Deal with it.

What are you talking about, see all the pre release interviews, I think it was in the manifesto as well. I feel like I’m in Orwell’s 1984 and you guys are changing history and your memories to defend GW2.

They were like we have stuff for all types of gamers! The entire game is endgame, you will never run out of content! If you like MMO’s you should check out GW2!

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Brilliant.

Anet should thank the stars they already got our money.

No; it doesn’t. And no one ever said it did or would. Games are systems, they are math, and there is a right way and a wrong way to do that math. And it just so happens that the “typical” way to do that math in other MMOs is the wrong way here. Deal with it.

What are you talking about, see all the pre release interviews, I think it was in the manifesto as well. I feel like I’m in Orwell’s 1984 and you guys are changing history and your memories to defend GW2.

They were like we have stuff for all types of gamers! The entire game is endgame, you will never run out of content! If you like MMO’s you should check out GW2!

They never said you would run out of content. They did say that you would be doing the same things at max level as when you were leveling up; that is what they meant by “the whole game is endgame.” I think you misunderstood the quote. And also from that manifesto…

“If you don’t like MMOs then you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2.”

Greater emphasis on people who dislike traditional MMOs. That should tell you something.

ProxyDamage.9826:

[…]

When you have content in a game it’s safe to say that it is expected that people will want to attain that content. When the only way to attain that content is either through very low odds random chance and/or through attaining a gigantic laundry list of rare items, you’re forced to grind the game – regardless of how you do it. When you also have other mechanics in the game that actively impede that, that is bad game design. No "if"s, "and"s or "but"s. That’s like having you run a marathon then forcing you to wear lead and stone shoes.

Additionally you shouldn’t tell people how they play the game. Some people can only play a little every day. Others can only play a lot on select days. Forcing one method of playing the game in detriment of all the others is, again, bad design.

Thus far, no one has been able to debunk the bolded quote. Because it’s impossble. It IS schizophrenic game design, even for casuals. Especially for casuals, actually.

Back on topic.

Arkham Creed.7358:

I like the fact that there is no carrot to chase. The thing about those carrots is you can never catch them. They are just a lure; a trick. They are used to keep you marching along with your tunnel vision while your master works you for everything he can get, and leaves you to die in the dust when your strength has run out. Carrots are a predatory tactic used to keep you paying a subscription fee, nothing more.

Quite frankly I don’t see any difference between that and what anet are doing with the cash shop in fact it can be argued that what they are doing is more insidious with the RNG and the funnelling players towards the cash shop.

Buttercup.5871:

ProxyDamage.9826:

[…]

When you have content in a game it’s safe to say that it is expected that people will want to attain that content. When the only way to attain that content is either through very low odds random chance and/or through attaining a gigantic laundry list of rare items, you’re forced to grind the game – regardless of how you do it. When you also have other mechanics in the game that actively impede that, that is bad game design. No "if"s, "and"s or "but"s. That’s like having you run a marathon then forcing you to wear lead and stone shoes.

Additionally you shouldn’t tell people how they play the game. Some people can only play a little every day. Others can only play a lot on select days. Forcing one method of playing the game in detriment of all the others is, again, bad design.

Thus far, no one has been able to debunk the bolded quote. Because it’s impossble. It IS schizophrenic game design, even for casuals. Especially for casuals, actually.

Back on topic.

Man reading all this I’ve decided to uninstall out of sheer lack of faith in the devs, maybe they will shuffle some people around, or hit their stride and finally figure things out in a year or 2, as they will keep working on the game and hopefully they finally realize what they are doing makes 0 sense.

Buttercup.5871:

ProxyDamage.9826:

[…]

When you have content in a game it’s safe to say that it is expected that people will want to attain that content. When the only way to attain that content is either through very low odds random chance and/or through attaining a gigantic laundry list of rare items, you’re forced to grind the game – regardless of how you do it. When you also have other mechanics in the game that actively impede that, that is bad game design. No "if"s, "and"s or "but"s. That’s like having you run a marathon then forcing you to wear lead and stone shoes.

Additionally you shouldn’t tell people how they play the game. Some people can only play a little every day. Others can only play a lot on select days. Forcing one method of playing the game in detriment of all the others is, again, bad design.

Thus far, no one has been able to debunk the bolded quote. Because it’s impossble. It IS schizophrenic game design, even for casuals. Especially for casuals, actually.

Back on topic.

I’ll take a swing at that. I like a challenge.

First off this guy’s example has nothing to do with how you play the game. When you can play and for how long is a timing issue, not a content or experience issue. You can grind and farm for five minutes once a week, or six hours a day every day. It is still grinding and farming. On the other hand things like grinding and farming are how you play the game. Put simply; how you play the game is defined by what you do in the game, not how often you do it.

That said a computer game, ultimately, is nothing more than a mathematical system. And being such, it was designed, programmed, and balanced around assumptions made by Arena Net. In essence, Guild Wars 2 was created around a play-style assumed by Arena Net long before any of us got our hands on a disc. And a computer game, being just a mathematical system, does have objective correct and incorrect methods of use. Or rather, the method you use to experience content can be either like what Arena Net intended when programing the game (correct), or counter to that intent (incorrect). And a player who plays the game in an incorrect fashion is inviting all manner of problems into their user experience that Arena Net neither intended, nor is responsible for.

Ultimately, there is definitively a method of experiencing content that is correct for the base program of the game, and for Arena Net’s intent. That is the way you should be playing the game. And if you are not playing the game this way, then you should change how you play if you desire the intended optimal experience; enjoyable. If you chose to disregard this and play in an incorrect manner, put bluntly, you have no right to complain about a suboptimal or unintended experience; un-enjoyable.

morrolan.9608:

Arkham Creed.7358:

I like the fact that there is no carrot to chase. The thing about those carrots is you can never catch them. They are just a lure; a trick. They are used to keep you marching along with your tunnel vision while your master works you for everything he can get, and leaves you to die in the dust when your strength has run out. Carrots are a predatory tactic used to keep you paying a subscription fee, nothing more.

Quite frankly I don’t see any difference between that and what anet are doing with the cash shop in fact it can be argued that what they are doing is more insidious with the RNG and the funnelling players towards the cash shop.

Except for the fact (and yes it is a fact) that you don’t need anything in the cash shop. And nothing in the cash shop offers an objective advantage, so don’t try that line. (just because you call it an advantage doesn’t make it one; that is a subjective advantage, one based on your opinion of fairness. Objectively speaking you are no more powerful using the cash shop than not, so objectively speaking it is not an advantage)

The whole point of a carrot in other MMOs is that you need it. You don’t have a choice in following the carrot. If you don’t then you literally can’t play more than half the content in the game. In Guild Wars 2 using the cash shop is a choice. You can call it a carrot if you like, and you can say we are being funneled to it (we’re not), but at the end of the day it is entirely your own choice to use it or not. Don’t blame Arena Net for all the money you wasted on RNG boxes; blame the guy who bought all those RNG boxes, clearly he is irresponsible with his money.

pricer.5091:

Arkham Creed.7358:

pricer.5091:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

And its succeeding, by being complete garbage…

Which will encourage others not to make the same stupid mistakes…thereby improving the genre.

I respectfully disagree. Guild Wars 2 is one of the best MMOs I’ve ever played (second only to the original Guild Wars) for exactly the reasons you call it garbage.

Funny how opinions work isn’t it?

I didnt GIVE any reaons for it being garbage. But, sigh, if you really want to know.

I used to like the game, in fact I still like WvW and running about with my guild. But there is NO reward for playing. There is no carrot. You are being endlessly driven to the cash shop and the developers are greedy and deaf.

In addition, it is the worst game I have ever played for actual bugs, in particular class skill ones, which lets face it are pretty important, not being fixed despite complaints being made since the game began.

So its good game….but ruined by poor customer support, not listening and greed.

I’ve played lots of games with more bugs. Warhammer, AoC, hell, were you at the WoW launch? That was godawful.

As for the rest of it, YOU need a carrot. I don’t need a carrot. In fact, I don’t even LIKE carrots. I’d rather just do what I want without having to be bribed. Games have trained you you need to be bribed. Ever play with blocks? What’s the reward? Ever have a catch? What’s the reward? Ever play solitaire? What’s the reward?

Games don’t require carrots IF you find them fun. I find the game fun, so I don’t need a carrot. The fact that you do means you dont’ find the game itself fun. If you’re only playing for the carrot, you’re definitely playing the wrong game.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve played lots of games with more bugs. Warhammer, AoC, hell, were you at the WoW launch? That was godawful.

As for the rest of it, YOU need a carrot. I don’t need a carrot. In fact, I don’t even LIKE carrots. I’d rather just do what I want without having to be bribed. Games have trained you you need to be bribed. Ever play with blocks? What’s the reward? Ever have a catch? What’s the reward? Ever play solitaire? What’s the reward?

Games don’t require carrots IF you find them fun. I find the game fun, so I don’t need a carrot. The fact that you do means you dont’ find the game itself fun. If you’re only playing for the carrot, you’re definitely playing the wrong game.

Dude, do you even play this game?

You’ve been in these forums way back since I can remember for the good part of each day. So unless you’re telling me you’re a vampire who doesn’t need to sleep, or write your superbly long posts at the same time you’re playing the game (thereby breaking a few laws of physics)… how much they paying you man? I could use that job too right now.

Me, I find that in-between genuinely playing for even four hours (as we good MMO players ought to do) and real life stuffs, its difficult to find the time to argue with people in each of every thread here – something a normal person without superpowers like me can only do ONCE WE STOP PLAYING THE GAME.

projectcedric.6951:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve played lots of games with more bugs. Warhammer, AoC, hell, were you at the WoW launch? That was godawful.

As for the rest of it, YOU need a carrot. I don’t need a carrot. In fact, I don’t even LIKE carrots. I’d rather just do what I want without having to be bribed. Games have trained you you need to be bribed. Ever play with blocks? What’s the reward? Ever have a catch? What’s the reward? Ever play solitaire? What’s the reward?

Games don’t require carrots IF you find them fun. I find the game fun, so I don’t need a carrot. The fact that you do means you dont’ find the game itself fun. If you’re only playing for the carrot, you’re definitely playing the wrong game.

Dude, do you even play this game?

You’ve been in these forums way back since I can remember for the good part of each day. So unless you’re telling me you’re a vampire who doesn’t need to sleep, or write your superbly long posts at the same time you’re playing the game (thereby breaking a few laws of physics)… how much they paying you man? I could use that job too right now.

Me, I find that in-between genuinely playing for even four hours (as we good MMO players ought to do) and real life stuffs, its difficult to find the time to argue with people in each of every thread here – something a normal person without superpowers like me can only do ONCE WE STOP PLAYING THE GAME.

Last I checked I have well over 7000 achievement points. They go up daily but at least 10 points, usually quite a bit more. I must play at some point.

I have a lot of free time. I’m retired. I don’t play golf. I’m a bit homebound, not completely but completely enough. I suffer from insomnia and chronic pain. I’m lucky to get four hours sleep a night.

So yeah, the distraction of playing games is one of the few pleasures I have in life. And driving people nuts on the forum is pretty cool too. lol

Vayne.8563:

projectcedric.6951:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve played lots of games with more bugs. Warhammer, AoC, hell, were you at the WoW launch? That was godawful.

As for the rest of it, YOU need a carrot. I don’t need a carrot. In fact, I don’t even LIKE carrots. I’d rather just do what I want without having to be bribed. Games have trained you you need to be bribed. Ever play with blocks? What’s the reward? Ever have a catch? What’s the reward? Ever play solitaire? What’s the reward?

Games don’t require carrots IF you find them fun. I find the game fun, so I don’t need a carrot. The fact that you do means you dont’ find the game itself fun. If you’re only playing for the carrot, you’re definitely playing the wrong game.

Dude, do you even play this game?

You’ve been in these forums way back since I can remember for the good part of each day. So unless you’re telling me you’re a vampire who doesn’t need to sleep, or write your superbly long posts at the same time you’re playing the game (thereby breaking a few laws of physics)… how much they paying you man? I could use that job too right now.

Me, I find that in-between genuinely playing for even four hours (as we good MMO players ought to do) and real life stuffs, its difficult to find the time to argue with people in each of every thread here – something a normal person without superpowers like me can only do ONCE WE STOP PLAYING THE GAME.

Last I checked I have well over 7000 achievement points. They go up daily but at least 10 points, usually quite a bit more. I must play at some point.

I have a lot of free time. I’m retired. I don’t play golf. I’m a bit homebound, not completely but completely enough. I suffer from insomnia and chronic pain. I’m lucky to get four hours sleep a night.

So yeah, the distraction of playing games is one of the few pleasures I have in life. And driving people nuts on the forum is pretty cool too. lol

So if you have a lot of free time, and you’re posting here instead of playing the game, you’re not playing enough to tell us what is what.

Play more, ok? Play more to the point that you have no time to post here every single day even if you’re not doing anything else. Otherwise, all this is just rhetoric.

projectcedric.6951:

Vayne.8563:

projectcedric.6951:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve played lots of games with more bugs. Warhammer, AoC, hell, were you at the WoW launch? That was godawful.

As for the rest of it, YOU need a carrot. I don’t need a carrot. In fact, I don’t even LIKE carrots. I’d rather just do what I want without having to be bribed. Games have trained you you need to be bribed. Ever play with blocks? What’s the reward? Ever have a catch? What’s the reward? Ever play solitaire? What’s the reward?

Games don’t require carrots IF you find them fun. I find the game fun, so I don’t need a carrot. The fact that you do means you dont’ find the game itself fun. If you’re only playing for the carrot, you’re definitely playing the wrong game.

Dude, do you even play this game?

You’ve been in these forums way back since I can remember for the good part of each day. So unless you’re telling me you’re a vampire who doesn’t need to sleep, or write your superbly long posts at the same time you’re playing the game (thereby breaking a few laws of physics)… how much they paying you man? I could use that job too right now.

Me, I find that in-between genuinely playing for even four hours (as we good MMO players ought to do) and real life stuffs, its difficult to find the time to argue with people in each of every thread here – something a normal person without superpowers like me can only do ONCE WE STOP PLAYING THE GAME.

Last I checked I have well over 7000 achievement points. They go up daily but at least 10 points, usually quite a bit more. I must play at some point.

I have a lot of free time. I’m retired. I don’t play golf. I’m a bit homebound, not completely but completely enough. I suffer from insomnia and chronic pain. I’m lucky to get four hours sleep a night.

So yeah, the distraction of playing games is one of the few pleasures I have in life. And driving people nuts on the forum is pretty cool too. lol

So if you have a lot of free time, and you’re posting here instead of playing the game, you’re not playing enough to tell us what is what.

Play more, ok? Play more to the point that you have no time to post here every single day even if you’re not doing anything else. Otherwise, all this is just rhetoric.

I tend to play when my guild is online. I tend to take some breaks when my guild goes to bed (since I’m in Australia).

Or is this is “clever” way of telling me not to post. Because it almost worked. I was…right there. Coughs.

Honestly if anyone by now has played a few hundred hours in this game can see how grindy GW2 has become, also how much enjoyment has been sucked away due to nerfs and loot limitations, its bad, really bad..

Vayne says have goals, i had goals, i finished it i made 8 professions at 80 fully geared, i’ve played over 3000 hours here too, i never wanted a legendary they are stupid skins aimed at the lowest common denominators to grind on..
My annoyance is the rest of the game is hindered by them, cannot craft anything nice because it needs the same crap legendaries need, so they are just as hard to make, to make anything is painful with the Crap GW2 economy and the Crap loot tables…

Game still unbalanced, still broken in many ways but hey another festival is in order…which brings me too..

Every content addition is temporary and marred by insane RNG, why? do they not make enough million dollars a year on Quaggan backpacks and quaggan hats, well i wonder why selling stuff like that very little want, yet the content the game needs badly is shut away in RNG boxes, no wonder the population is going away, not surprising at all really…

You sound pretty salty. I don’t mean to be insulting but I’ve played this game non stop since first day of head start and not once felt the urge to grind for something. I play WvW and dungeons and I don’t feel I’m at a disadvantage from not having a 5% lower stat sheet across the board. I am level 8 in fractals, and have gotten enough stuff to make 3 ascended back pieces and infuse them all. Did not have to grind for those. Grinding is there, for people who like it, just like PvP is there for those who like it and WvW for those who like world pvp.

pricer.5091:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

And its succeeding, by being complete garbage…

Which will encourage others not to make the same stupid mistakes…thereby improving the genre.

See, I like what they’re trying to accomplish, so for me it’s a pretty amazing game.

pricer.5091:

I used to like the game, in fact I still like WvW and running about with my guild. But there is NO reward for playing. There is no carrot.

Because you get to choose your own carrot and play the game because it’s fun, not because you’ve been tricked into becoming addicted. I realize most people play other MMOs specifically because they want to be Skinner rats, but Anet wasn’t designing for those people. There are plenty of other games that cater to them. GW2 tries to give them opportunities to press the lever (because that’s what they want), but the game will only go so for them because they fundamentally aren’t the core audience.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Aeonblade.8709:

This is where the problem lies. For a lot of players, the way the game is set up makes farming required.

This confuses me. How does the game require farming? For whom?

Have you looked at the mats prices lately? Even at start there was a lot of the prohibitively high ones, but since november 2012 it’s getting much worse. It’s now 50 ecto for this, 100 passion flowers for that, 250 t6 mats for these, 250 lodestones for those. The theme is clearly visible – you are supposed to farm for that, and farm hard, because you won’t get it through normal playing, or feats of skill.

Quantity over quality. Cheap delaying tactics that are supposed to keep you away from your goals through sheer boredom, instead of keeping you captivated through immersing or challenging content.

Everything this game claimed it won’t ever be.

Astralporing.1957:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Aeonblade.8709:

This is where the problem lies. For a lot of players, the way the game is set up makes farming required.

This confuses me. How does the game require farming? For whom?

Have you looked at the mats prices lately? Even at start there was a lot of the prohibitively high ones, but since november 2012 it’s getting much worse. It’s now 50 ecto for this, 100 passion flowers for that, 250 t6 mats for these, 250 lodestones for those. The theme is clearly visible – you are supposed to farm for that, and farm hard, because you won’t get it through normal playing, or feats of skill.

Quantity over quality. Cheap delaying tactics that are supposed to keep you away from your goals through sheer boredom, instead of keeping you captivated through immersing or challenging content.

Everything this game claimed it won’t ever be.

Inb4 “but you don’t need any of these items”:
That doesn’t matter. They’re there. ANet put them in to be acquired. As a possible goal players might set for themselves. But actually acquiring them is difficult as hell. Well, no. Not difficult. Just grindy. Unless you’re willing to take your time and wait ages. And this just goes to prove the delaying tactics argument that I have quoted.

Astralporing.1957:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Aeonblade.8709:

This is where the problem lies. For a lot of players, the way the game is set up makes farming required.

This confuses me. How does the game require farming? For whom?

Have you looked at the mats prices lately? Even at start there was a lot of the prohibitively high ones, but since november 2012 it’s getting much worse. It’s now 50 ecto for this, 100 passion flowers for that, 250 t6 mats for these, 250 lodestones for those. The theme is clearly visible – you are supposed to farm for that, and farm hard, because you won’t get it through normal playing, or feats of skill.

Quantity over quality. Cheap delaying tactics that are supposed to keep you away from your goals through sheer boredom, instead of keeping you captivated through immersing or challenging content.

Everything this game claimed it won’t ever be.

Yeah, I love that crafting jumped from 5 powerful blood, 5 ectos to 250 powerful blood and 50 ectos. Ridiculous.

Astralporing.1957:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Aeonblade.8709:

This is where the problem lies. For a lot of players, the way the game is set up makes farming required.

This confuses me. How does the game require farming? For whom?

Have you looked at the mats prices lately? Even at start there was a lot of the prohibitively high ones, but since november 2012 it’s getting much worse. It’s now 50 ecto for this, 100 passion flowers for that, 250 t6 mats for these, 250 lodestones for those. The theme is clearly visible – you are supposed to farm for that, and farm hard, because you won’t get it through normal playing, or feats of skill.

Quantity over quality. Cheap delaying tactics that are supposed to keep you away from your goals through sheer boredom, instead of keeping you captivated through immersing or challenging content.

Everything this game claimed it won’t ever be.

There are pretty things out there you can farm for, if you want them. But the stat differences are either 0 or largely negligible (I do agree that Ascended gear should be cosmetic only).

I’m ok with forcing people to farm for cosmetic effects, and the game allows that. But all you actually need to run the majority of content is a set of Rares, which is trivially easy to get, and Exotics will do you just fine for most of the rest, which isn’t a whole lot more difficult to get unless you have a bajillion characters. If you want a snazzy set of dungeon armor, you have to run the dungeon a bunch of times but that’s your choice. Some warrior in Draconic armor isn’t at a disadvantage against another warrior with CoF armor.

RoterFuchs.9216:

Inb4 “but you don’t need any of these items”:

I’m sorry, but you don’t get to shut down this argument just because you’ve heard it before.

Blaine Tog.8304:

RoterFuchs.9216:

Inb4 “but you don’t need any of these items”:

I’m sorry, but you don’t get to shut down this argument just because you’ve heard it before.

Well, it’s not like this argument gets any better with constant repeating either. Of course we don’t need them. We don’t need to play either.
It still shows us the devs’ mindset about the game.

And bad gameplay mechanics is still bad gameplay mechanics.

(oh, and ascended stat advantage is anything but negligible)

Blaine Tog.8304:

RoterFuchs.9216:

Inb4 “but you don’t need any of these items”:

I’m sorry, but you don’t get to shut down this argument just because you’ve heard it before.

Oh don’t be sorry. I am not trying to shut it down, I am just trying to show another point of view.
Let’s try it this way: ANet said Guild Wars 2 would not be grindy at all. They didn’t like grind and that’s why they’re trying to keep it out of the game. And then there are these items which require either a huge amount of time and / or grind, totally ignoring their statement.

So now you say “but it’s optional”. And I say “it’s grind”. Whether you want the item or not. A part of game content is gated behind grindy bars.

Here another approach: Why do casuals dislike the gear treadmill and raids? Because it gates content behind gear. What if I told you that this content was optional and no one forced you to do it? (The same as no one is forcing me to go for certain items, right?)
Just play the rest of the game and in time you might gather enough stuff / money or might have time for a raid and get past that gate. But I guess you don’t want to spend that much time just to achieve this one goal.

These are essentially the same arguments people keep bringing up whenever there’s the discussion that you must grind to acquire special items / legendaries.

In both cases people miss out on content. Be it special items or other playable parts of the game. And it’s both gated behind grind.

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Brilliant.

Anet should thank the stars they already got our money.

Pretty much. It’s a completely mind boggling game of mechanics cancelling each other out the moment.

“Farm t6 mats for any of the decent skins and legendaries! Oh by the way we are removing pretty much any reliable way of being able to farm them so screw everyone hahaha! You want fun? Not for you!”

In Anet’s defense I’m starting to think maybe NCsoft is the one responsible for this game having no personality and ADHD.

RoterFuchs.9216:

Let’s try it this way: ANet said Guild Wars 2 would not be grindy at all.

They said nothing of the sort. From what I understand, they’re just gonna make grinding less… mindnumbing than standing in 1 spot for hours everyday killing the same mobs over and over and over again.

penatbater.4710:

RoterFuchs.9216:

Let’s try it this way: ANet said Guild Wars 2 would not be grindy at all.

They said nothing of the sort. From what I understand, they’re just gonna make grinding less… mindnumbing than standing in 1 spot for hours everyday killing the same mobs over and over and over again.

Wow. Just wow. What was it someone said about feeling like we are in 1984? lol.

penatbater.4710:

RoterFuchs.9216:

Let’s try it this way: ANet said Guild Wars 2 would not be grindy at all.

They said nothing of the sort. From what I understand, they’re just gonna make grinding less… mindnumbing than standing in 1 spot for hours everyday killing the same mobs over and over and over again.

Actually they did. I clearly remember a video where phrases like “We don’t like grind” or “We want to eliminate grind” were being thrown around.

sternenstaub.8763:

Recluse.6740:

Sure we will find another way to get said goal, but the fact we have to work so hard to get that goal, is the reason why people quit after they get what they want. The sigh of relief when you press that button on the forge to make your legendary is also a dying last breath in my opinion, for people who do not enjoy the game to begin with.

If these people want to quit after getting their legendary, its easy to see they did not like the game in the first place, and were playing for the shiny stuff and not the content.

Seriously now?
There are people who farm (don’t know maybe 6-12h a day) to get the final price and then quit? Nobody told them, that they could could quit before doing that and maybe live a life or having fun or … or… or… idk everything sounds more interesting than that!
I am so not having any sympathy for such fools…

Most people enter a game with a certain goal in mind. They do the research on the part of the game that makes them happy, and that becomes their goal when launch hits. When goal is achieved, and the rest of the game does not interest them, they leave, and maybe come back later when something new in brought in, rinse repeat.

I have no sympathy for them either. What I am saying is that sometimes people get bored with the game, yet get fixed on a certain goal in the game that they would like to achieve. Once said goal is achieved, they have a time period they play even harder trying to like the game, and showing off their new weapon/armor/prize .. once the newness of all that goes away, and the compliments of ’ Hey man, awesome sword!" go silent, they end up quitting.

It is what it is. This game just so happens to have a huge grind and requires farming to reach the one goal that most people want to achieve, and that is to look cool and powerful with their new/rare weapon.

And luckily there are players who have different goals who are present in this forum to tell you how to play the game their way, so you too can achieve maximum happiness like them.

Anyway .. not sure why I even replied to this, but I did … so there ya have it.

Astralporing.1957:

Blaine Tog.8304:

RoterFuchs.9216:

Inb4 “but you don’t need any of these items”:

I’m sorry, but you don’t get to shut down this argument just because you’ve heard it before.

Well, it’s not like this argument gets any better with constant repeating either. Of course we don’t need them. We don’t need to play either.

You’re right, you don’t! But you’re drawing a false equivalency between farming and playing. You don’t need to farm to get what you need to play. Farming is (and should be) for getting cosmetic improvements.

For example, I recently ran through Arah p3 a bunch of times because I wanted the snazzy Arah armor for my Necro, but the armor set I already had already allowed me to run in WvW, anywhere in PvE, and through whatever dungeon I wanted just fine, and I got most of that set instantly upon achieving level 80 just by popping a bunch of Jugs of Liquid Karma that I’d stored up by doing my dailies and popping over to the Temples in Arah. Outside of dungeon runs for tokens because I wanted a specific look, I’ve done maybe an hour or two of dedicated farming total, mostly just because I wanted to relax and kill stuff for a while, and I’ve put over 1,000 hours into this game.

Astralporing.1957:

And bad gameplay mechanics is still bad gameplay mechanics.

(oh, and ascended stat advantage is anything but negligible)

Giving the option to farm is good for people who want it. It agree that it shouldn’t be necessary (and, again, that the ascended stat bump is bad), but by and large, it isn’t.

RoterFuchs.9216:

Blaine Tog.8304:

RoterFuchs.9216:

Inb4 “but you don’t need any of these items”:

I’m sorry, but you don’t get to shut down this argument just because you’ve heard it before.

Oh don’t be sorry. I am not trying to shut it down, I am just trying to show another point of view.
Let’s try it this way: ANet said Guild Wars 2 would not be grindy at all. They didn’t like grind and that’s why they’re trying to keep it out of the game. And then there are these items which require either a huge amount of time and / or grind, totally ignoring their statement.

So now you say “but it’s optional”. And I say “it’s grind”. Whether you want the item or not. A part of game content is gated behind grindy bars.

I would argue that you’re being overly pedantic with your interpretation of what they said. Anet said that GW2 wouldn’t be grindy. That doesn’t mean there would be no grind anywhere, it just means it wouldn’t be part of the core gameplay experience.

For example, let’s say I have a restaurant. I advertise it as selling healthy food, as being a good play to come for a delicious, filling meal that won’t clog your arteries. Am I not allowed to serve ice cream on the desert menu? Am I not allowed to give people the option of ordering fries? That’s essentially what you have here: the game, fundamentally, isn’t about grind, but there’s an optional amount of grind available for you if you want it.

I’d kinda like to have Bifrost for my Elementalist. But in a fight with another Staff Ele, my Glyphic staff (transmuted to have exotic stats) puts me on an even playing field. Even when Ascended weapons come out, my Exotic staff isn’t going to prevent me from doing well with it in WvW and dungeons. I’ll still be able to help take down Lupi with my exotic staff. And that’s the kind of game this is.

RoterFuchs.9216:

penatbater.4710:

RoterFuchs.9216:

Let’s try it this way: ANet said Guild Wars 2 would not be grindy at all.

They said nothing of the sort. From what I understand, they’re just gonna make grinding less… mindnumbing than standing in 1 spot for hours everyday killing the same mobs over and over and over again.

Actually they did. I clearly remember a video where phrases like “We don’t like grind” or “We want to eliminate grind” were being thrown around.

You remember a video talking about a specific kind of grind, and if you see the whole quote, it’s not talking about gear grind or item grind. There were very specific interviews with Eric Flannum where he said there would be things to grind for in the game for players who like grind, but that it wouldn’t be mandatory grind, which is what we have now.

The video you’re thinkining about is the much maligned MMO Manifesto, where Colin was talking about how in most games, you have to grind to get to max level before you can do anything fun. Not the grind you’re talking about.

Vayne.8563:

You saying it doesn’t make it true.

It has long term goals that take a long time. That’s the design. It’s not paradoxical for a long term goal to take a long time. It’s logical.

Nothing in this game requires people to do anything because you don’t need that stuff. You want it. And because that gear isn’t need, unlike in other games, it can take time to get.

You hate that I don’t agree with you. You believe in your heart of hearts that if I understood I would agree with you. I understand.

I don’t agree.

While I agree that many of the items in this game are long term goals and that making it take longer is logical, I do not agree that many the design is not paradoxical.

Essentially, Arena Net has said that they are pro farming, and that farming is very much a big part of the game. They said that DR was essentially to stop botters, and that people should not ever come into contact with DR in normal play. Farming is normal play and farmers reach DR. Therefore, something in their design is flawed.

Further, continued farming nerfs discourage the activity that is supposed to be supported by Arena Net, and that is essentially what this thread is about. You cannot argue that there have been farming nerfs, and they have clearly stated that farming is encouraged. Therefore their actions != words.

Vayne.8563:

RoterFuchs.9216:

penatbater.4710:

RoterFuchs.9216:

Let’s try it this way: ANet said Guild Wars 2 would not be grindy at all.

They said nothing of the sort. From what I understand, they’re just gonna make grinding less… mindnumbing than standing in 1 spot for hours everyday killing the same mobs over and over and over again.

Actually they did. I clearly remember a video where phrases like “We don’t like grind” or “We want to eliminate grind” were being thrown around.

The video you’re thinkining about is the much maligned MMO Manifesto, where Colin was talking about how in most games, you have to grind to get to max level before you can do anything fun. Not the grind you’re talking about.

Well that’s odd. While I am indeed talking about the manifesto, what you’re saying is outright wrong.

“In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way people view combat.”

Straight from the manifesto. Don’t believe me? Here, take a look: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/media/videos/ (at the very bottom)

Essentially he is saying: grind = bad. He is also saying that GW2 should be the fun stuff all the time, and that you don’t need to grind to get to the fun stuff.

Any discussion at this point is obsolete, because nobody gets to decide what fun stuff is for others. Everyone decides for themselves. For me, having an awesome weapon or armor skin is definitely fun stuff. Because I like to relate to my character, to the role I am playing. Having nice looking gear is important and fun to me. And to acquire that, right now, I need to grind. That’s really awesome, isn’t it?

Blaine Tog.8304:

For example, let’s say I have a restaurant. I advertise it as selling healthy food, as being a good play to come for a delicious, filling meal that won’t clog your arteries. Am I not allowed to serve ice cream on the desert menu? Am I not allowed to give people the option of ordering fries? That’s essentially what you have here: the game, fundamentally, isn’t about grind, but there’s an optional amount of grind available for you if you want it.

Well careful on the wording here. Are you only selling healthy food, or are you also selling healthy food? There’s a difference. By saying “I’m selling healthy food” you are generalizing, leaving things open for interpretation. And I did do exactly that. I interpreted the message I got. And you’re critizing this, based on what? Your own interpretation? Come on.

In fact, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2.” is pretty much straight forward. They don’t, oh wait, didn’t want grind. It’s in their manifesto. Which is still out there to advertise for the game.

RoterFuchs.9216:

Vayne.8563:

RoterFuchs.9216:

penatbater.4710:

RoterFuchs.9216:

Let’s try it this way: ANet said Guild Wars 2 would not be grindy at all.

They said nothing of the sort. From what I understand, they’re just gonna make grinding less… mindnumbing than standing in 1 spot for hours everyday killing the same mobs over and over and over again.

Actually they did. I clearly remember a video where phrases like “We don’t like grind” or “We want to eliminate grind” were being thrown around.

The video you’re thinkining about is the much maligned MMO Manifesto, where Colin was talking about how in most games, you have to grind to get to max level before you can do anything fun. Not the grind you’re talking about.

Well that’s odd. While I am indeed talking about the manifesto, what you’re saying is outright wrong.

“In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way people view combat.”

Straight from the manifesto. Don’t believe me? Here, take a look: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/media/videos/ (at the very bottom)

Essentially he is saying: grind = bad. He is also saying that GW2 should be the fun stuff all the time, and that you don’t need to grind to get to the fun stuff.

Any discussion at this point is obsolete, because nobody gets to decide what fun stuff is for others. Everyone decides for themselves. For me, having an awesome weapon or armor skin is definitely fun stuff. Because I like to relate to my character, to the role I am playing. Having nice looking gear is important and fun to me. And to acquire that, right now, I need to grind. That’s really awesome, isn’t it?

Blaine Tog.8304:

For example, let’s say I have a restaurant. I advertise it as selling healthy food, as being a good play to come for a delicious, filling meal that won’t clog your arteries. Am I not allowed to serve ice cream on the desert menu? Am I not allowed to give people the option of ordering fries? That’s essentially what you have here: the game, fundamentally, isn’t about grind, but there’s an optional amount of grind available for you if you want it.

Well careful on the wording here. Are you only selling healthy food, or are you also selling healthy food? There’s a difference. By saying “I’m selling healthy food” you are generalizing, leaving things open for interpretation. And I did do exactly that. I interpreted the message I got. And you’re critizing this, based on what? Your own interpretation? Come on.

In fact, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2.” is pretty much straight forward. They don’t, oh wait, didn’t want grind. It’s in their manifesto. Which is still out there to advertise for the game.

Why do you take an entire paragraph…highlight the bit to prove your point and completely IGNORE the last line of the paragraph which says, “we want to change the way people view combat.”

It’s about the combat. It’s about having fun things to do from level 1. How this equates to gear grind in your mind shows a complete lack of reading comprehension.

The fun stuff isn’t items. They’re talking about the fact that you can fight a big boss right in the starter zone. You can jump into PVP as a level 80 character without playing PVE at all or leveling at all. You can even jump into WvW at a low level if you want. That’s it. Anything else you’ve read into it is your own problem.

Edit: Does the paragraph mention gear at all? No. Does it mention crafting? No. It mentions fun things to do and combat. That’s what the paragraph is about.

Vayne.8563:

Why do you take an entire paragraph…highlight the bit to prove your point and completely IGNORE the last line of the paragraph which says, “we want to change the way people view combat.”

It’s about the combat. It’s about having fun things to do from level 1. How this equates to gear grind in your mind shows a complete lack of reading comprehension.

The fun stuff isn’t items. They’re talking about the fact that you can fight a big boss right in the starter zone. You can jump into PVP as a level 80 character without playing PVE at all or leveling at all. You can even jump into WvW at a low level if you want. That’s it. Anything else you’ve read into it is your own problem.

Edit: Does the paragraph mention gear at all? No. Does it mention crafting? No. It mentions fun things to do and combat. That’s what the paragraph is about.

How does it relate to gear grind? Simple. Gear is mostly acquired through crafting or RNG in this game. How do you achieve either of it? Combat. Is combat in itself fun? Yes. Is it fun killing hundreds and thousands of mobs to acquire one final item? No.

“In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, ocassionally"

And with GW2 they wanted to have fun stuff always and everywhere. So where are my fun tasks to acquire mats? Where is the fun, alternative way to grinding?

Oh and btw, that paragraph also isn’t talking about fighting bosses early on, or WvW, or sPvP. Dunno where you got that. So right back at you.

The problem here is that in the paragraph fun stuff and fighting are connected, because it had to be brief and combat is the one thing you will do throughout the entire game. Of course it is connected to fun stuff. But that doesn’t mean fun stuff is only connected to combat. And as I have already said earlier, nobody gets to decide what fun stuff is. Except for themselves.

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

If you’ve played GW2, you’ll notice its just a different take on WoW, Anet’s take on it, but there is clear inspiration in EQ-like games rather than in GW1. There are dozens of kill 10 rats quests, and the interesting quests just got moved out into the open world. That’s it, that’s really the main “shaking up” GW2 did, right until you reach max level, where Anet says “the game is over guys, make an alt until we make new content you can beat in a few hours.”

From my perspective what’s happening is that the devs are not industry veterans in MMO’s, since GW1 was hardly an MMO, and thus the game has very muddled core design goals.

the uprising.6317:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

If you’ve played GW2, you’ll notice its just a different take on WoW, Anet’s take on it, but there is clear inspiration in EQ-like games rather than in GW1. There are dozens of kill 10 rats quests, and the interesting quests just got moved out into the open world. That’s it, that’s really the main “shaking up” GW2 did, right until you reach max level, where Anet says “the game is over guys, make an alt until we make new content you can beat in a few hours.”

From my perspective what’s happening is that the devs are not industry veterans in MMO’s, since GW1 was hardly an MMO, and thus the game has very muddled core design goals.

Except that the founders of Arena Net also made a little game called World of Warcraft.

Your opinions are your own, but misinformation isn’t acceptable. For one the game isn’t over when you reach max level any more than it is in other MMO. The only difference here is that you’re not being forced to replay everything unless you want to. WoW, Rift, SWTOR…all those games have the same kind of issues with content at max level, only those games say “the game is over guys, but just replay that last bit about five hundred times while we spend the next six months coming up with something new.”

ProxyDamage.9826:

When you have content in a game it’s safe to say that it is expected that people will want to attain that content. When the only way to attain that content is either through very low odds random chance and/or through attaining a gigantic laundry list of rare items, you’re forced to grind the game – regardless of how you do it. When you also have other mechanics in the game that actively impede that, that is bad game design. No "if"s, "and"s or "but"s. That’s like having you run a marathon then forcing you to wear lead and stone shoes.

Additionally you shouldn’t tell people how they play the game. Some people can only play a little every day. Others can only play a lot on select days. Forcing one method of playing the game in detriment of all the others is, again, bad design.

Buttercup.5871:

Thus far, no one has been able to debunk the bolded quote. Because it’s impossble. It IS schizophrenic game design, even for casuals. Especially for casuals, actually.

Back on topic.

Arkham Creed.7358:

I’ll take a swing at that. I like a challenge.

First off this guy’s example has nothing to do with how you play the game. When you can play and for how long is a timing issue, not a content or experience issue.

You see, @Creed, I am grateful for your response and the fact that you tried. But your first premise is where it goes wrong.

The OP’s argument is that DR affects content. And it does. Say, you 4 hours a week, all in one evening. Say you just want to do one particular part of the game on that evening. DR will tell you to stop that content after less than 1 hour. Because, simply put, the rewards will stop. And rewards are part of the gaming experience. Take out the reward part, and – for most people – that dimishes the fun of experiencing that content. It’s that simple.

Now, let’s take it one step further and apply this example to practice. Let’s consider the above person is part of a guild that has more time on their hands. They run dungeons, competitive WvW, etc. Let’s say this person wants to deck him/herself out in one set of dungeon gear, within the least amount of time possible (of which that person has FAR less than the others), so that he/she can join the guild on their runs. To have a fun experience with his guild (and without dying every other minute due to a lack of gear, which is definitely not fun). Arenanet says: No. You shall do other dungeons first, or other zones, whatever you want – except what you want to do now. That’s part of the problem the OP was talking about. It’s schizophrenic game design. DR doesn’t just punish the “grinders”, it punishes everyone.

I know that the flipside, no DR, leads to inflation which punishes casuals even more. I know that. I’m not saying I have a solution, either. Nonetheless, the OP’s argument is spot on.

The rest of your argument focuses on “correct” and “incorrect” gameplay. I know what you’re saying; I just don’t want to be told by the game that what I do find fun – or to put it more accurately, relaxing – is “not fun” or relaxing.

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

If you’ve played GW2, you’ll notice its just a different take on WoW, Anet’s take on it, but there is clear inspiration in EQ-like games rather than in GW1. There are dozens of kill 10 rats quests, and the interesting quests just got moved out into the open world. That’s it, that’s really the main “shaking up” GW2 did, right until you reach max level, where Anet says “the game is over guys, make an alt until we make new content you can beat in a few hours.”

From my perspective what’s happening is that the devs are not industry veterans in MMO’s, since GW1 was hardly an MMO, and thus the game has very muddled core design goals.

Except that the founders of Arena Net also made a little game called World of Warcraft.

Oh yeh completely forgot about that, I guess the design is muddled b/c they were trying something new and paradoxical to the endgame.

RoterFuchs.9216:

Well careful on the wording here. Are you only selling healthy food, or are you also selling healthy food? There’s a difference. By saying “I’m selling healthy food” you are generalizing, leaving things open for interpretation. And I did do exactly that. I interpreted the message I got. And you’re critizing this, based on what? Your own interpretation? Come on.

No. I’m criticizing your interpretation as being overly pedantic. You are, objectively speaking, choosing to take what they said in their promotional video in a very narrow way. I’m arguing that your interpretation is too narrow, if not entirely off base. We aren’t even talking about my interpretation of what they said yet. However, let’s do that now.

My interpretation is that Anet is trying to make an MMO that’s more based around action and gameplay than stats. You don’t have the tank (who stands there pressing his defensive buttons), the healer (who stands there making red bars go up), and the DPS (who stands there and makes red bars go down), all of whom differentiate themselves pretty much only by having better gear. Instead, you have people ducking and diving all over the battlefield, making use of terrain, dodging spells and sword blows, throwing water in their opponent’s faces and then blasting it with fire to blind them (so to speak). You don’t just stand there autoattacking until your numerical advantage crushes them. You outplay them.

In that video, in that quote, Colin Johanson wasn’t even talking about farming at all. He was talking specifically about leveling. Minutes after you started your character, you get to take down a huge, scary beast. The low-level areas all have giant world bosses that need dozens of players to kill. When you’re mid-level, you can even start helping fight the dragon’s lieutenants out in the world, and all along the way you can run through the dungeons for a challenge, or go help in WvW. A level 2 Elementalist sitting behind a Trebuchet can take down the walls of Stonemist Castle, or throw down water fields with his staff or a static field to help cover his zerg’s retreat. Considering you just started out, that’s pretty amazing.

His point was, GW2 doesn’t start after you’ve hit level 80, and getting there doesn’t require standing next to 100,000 bears and pressing 1 until they die. The video wasn’t trying to say what you’re interpret it as saying. It was saying, “Look at how fun and awesome or combat is, and look at the cool things you can do and the kitten monsters you can fight! And you get to do all that from the start!”

the uprising.6317:

There are dozens of kill 10 rats quests,

You mean the renown hearts that allow you do to any of a number of tasks in a given area to help fill a progress bear to complete the heart? Where you can kill 1 rat, then help herd a cow into a pasture, then scare rabbits away from the cabbage, then use watermelon to distract the ettins and make them less dangerous to get the heart? You CAN kill 10 rats if you want, but it’s no faster than mixing things up. It’s an example of the game letting players play how they want to play. Sometimes you just want to kill things, sometimes you want to get into a snowball fight with some Norn kids.

GW2’s design isn’t paradoxical. It’s just trying to offer as many options as it can. Having both PvE and PvP isn’t a paradox, even though there are players that exclusively do one or the other. Allowing someone to kill 10 rats while allowing someone else to water 10 plants isn’t a paradox either. It’s offering choice, and Anet is doing its best to keep as many choices balanced as possible so there isn’t one cleakitten x choice. It’s still a new game, though, so the balance may not be perfect, but it’s getting there.