Guild Wars 2

Buttercup.5871:

You see, @Creed, I am grateful for your response and the fact that you tried. But your first premise is where it goes wrong.

The OP’s argument is that DR affects content. And it does. Say, you 4 hours a week, all in one evening. Say you just want to do one particular part of the game on that evening. DR will tell you to stop that content after less than 1 hour. Because, simply put, the rewards will stop. And rewards are part of the gaming experience. Take out the reward part, and – for most people – that dimishes the fun of experiencing that content. It’s that simple.

Now, let’s take it one step further and apply this example to practice. Let’s consider the above person is part of a guild that has more time on their hands. They run dungeons, competitive WvW, etc. Let’s say this person wants to deck him/herself out in one set of dungeon gear, within the least amount of time possible (of which that person has FAR less than the others), so that he/she can join the guild on their runs. To have a fun experience with his guild (and without dying every other minute due to a lack of gear, which is definitely not fun). Arenanet says: No. You shall do other dungeons first, or other zones, whatever you want – except what you want to do now. That’s part of the problem the OP was talking about. It’s schizophrenic game design. DR doesn’t just punish the “grinders”, it punishes everyone.

I know that the flipside, no DR, leads to inflation which punishes casuals even more. I know that. I’m not saying I have a solution, either. Nonetheless, the OP’s argument is spot on.

The rest of your argument focuses on “correct” and “incorrect” gameplay. I know what you’re saying; I just don’t want to be told by the game that what I do find fun – or to put it more accurately, relaxing – is “not fun” or relaxing.

There are two main points I got from your post, and I’ll focus on those. Firstly you made the statement “Because, simply put, the rewards will stop. And rewards are part of the gaming experience.” This is an example of what I was calling “incorrect play-style.” For you rewards are part of the experience, yet this clearly was not part of Arena Net’s intent. This is expressed by how quickly and easily any player can obtain max-stat gear and thus be effective at any content in the game, and further supported by the fact that Arena Net did not promote the game based on rewards, but rather fun content.

While you could rightly argue that rewards are a form of content, I believe the context should be considered. In all instances when speaking of fun content, the overall subject of the article/interview/video was on combat and events, and in all instances when speaking of rewarding content, the overall subject was fun. This means that the intent and meaning of those phrases was the abstract gratification of enjoyable gameplay, not tangible in-game rewards and loot.

No onto the issue of “I just don’t want to be told by the game that what I do find fun – or to put it more accurately, relaxing – is “not fun” or relaxing.” I perfectly understand, so please allow me to clarify. When I speck of incorrect play-style I am referring to a type of play unintended by the developers, and thereby not balanced into the game. Obviously the developers intended to make a fun game, and that means that there is objectively and intended “path to fun.” No one is saying you are wrong for finding other things fun, fun is a subjective thing that can’t and shouldn’t be argued. However being a subjective thing means that it can’t be universally accounted for. In essence this means that Guild Wars 2 was designed and balanced for people who find fun in the intended play-style, and those who find fun in unintended play-style are playing incorrectly from a technical point of view, not an emotional one.

Seeing the two above paragraphs leads me to believe that you are an incorrect player. That isn’t an insult, nor am I calling you wrong for finding fun in the things you enjoy. What I am saying however is that you are not part of Arena Net’s target audience as you do not find fun in the intended play-style. This means that mechanically speaking you will always have a suboptimal and unintended experience, and as your subjective idea of fun continues to clash with the mathematical and technological intent of the game any fun you may gleam from the game will be diminished. If you prefer; you’re not “wrong” you’re just “incompatible.”

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

If you’ve played GW2, you’ll notice its just a different take on WoW, Anet’s take on it, but there is clear inspiration in EQ-like games rather than in GW1. There are dozens of kill 10 rats quests, and the interesting quests just got moved out into the open world. That’s it, that’s really the main “shaking up” GW2 did, right until you reach max level, where Anet says “the game is over guys, make an alt until we make new content you can beat in a few hours.”

From my perspective what’s happening is that the devs are not industry veterans in MMO’s, since GW1 was hardly an MMO, and thus the game has very muddled core design goals.

Except that the founders of Arena Net also made a little game called World of Warcraft.

Oh yeh completely forgot about that, I guess the design is muddled b/c they were trying something new and paradoxical to the endgame.

You’re still struggling with that whole “subjective opinion” thing aren’t you? I like Guild Wars 2 as it is, and so do lots of other people. And clearly it was designed with players like us in mind. You say paradoxical to the endgame, I say improvement. I like that there is no progression, I like that “the whole game is endgame” and I like that there isn’t a mandatory Skinner Box.

You’ve already said that you’re going to uninstall and quit the game, while you’re at it stop signing into the forums. You’re not happy here and we’re not happy with you here; you’re preaching to people who disagree and don’t want to hear it, and banging your head against a brick wall with your arguments. Just stop. Go do something else. You’ll feel a lot better, I promise.

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

If you’ve played GW2, you’ll notice its just a different take on WoW, Anet’s take on it, but there is clear inspiration in EQ-like games rather than in GW1. There are dozens of kill 10 rats quests, and the interesting quests just got moved out into the open world. That’s it, that’s really the main “shaking up” GW2 did, right until you reach max level, where Anet says “the game is over guys, make an alt until we make new content you can beat in a few hours.”

From my perspective what’s happening is that the devs are not industry veterans in MMO’s, since GW1 was hardly an MMO, and thus the game has very muddled core design goals.

Except that the founders of Arena Net also made a little game called World of Warcraft.

Oh yeh completely forgot about that, I guess the design is muddled b/c they were trying something new and paradoxical to the endgame.

You’re still struggling with that whole “subjective opinion” thing aren’t you? I like Guild Wars 2 as it is, and so do lots of other people. And clearly it was designed with players like us in mind. You say paradoxical to the endgame, I say improvement. I like that there is no progression, I like that “the whole game is endgame” and I like that there isn’t a mandatory Skinner Box.

You’ve already said that you’re going to uninstall and quit the game, while you’re at it stop signing into the forums. You’re not happy here and we’re not happy with you here; you’re preaching to people who disagree and don’t want to hear it, and banging your head against a brick wall with your arguments. Just stop. Go do something else. You’ll feel a lot better, I promise.

It’s a pretty even split so far of people who agree or disagree. Do better than just generalizing if you are going to try to stir up a constructive thread, we have already had to deal with more of this earlier in the thread. If you enjoy the game so much, go play it how it is, and let us discuss ways to make it better.

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

If you’ve played GW2, you’ll notice its just a different take on WoW, Anet’s take on it, but there is clear inspiration in EQ-like games rather than in GW1. There are dozens of kill 10 rats quests, and the interesting quests just got moved out into the open world. That’s it, that’s really the main “shaking up” GW2 did, right until you reach max level, where Anet says “the game is over guys, make an alt until we make new content you can beat in a few hours.”

From my perspective what’s happening is that the devs are not industry veterans in MMO’s, since GW1 was hardly an MMO, and thus the game has very muddled core design goals.

Except that the founders of Arena Net also made a little game called World of Warcraft.

The founders of Arenanet did not help create World of Warcraft. They worked for blizzard in the making of previous games like Warcraft(not the mmo) and other games before WoW.
If I’m not mistaken only one of them are actually left with Anet. One of them left to make his own gaming company.

Aeonblade.8709:

If you enjoy the game so much, go play it how it is, and let us discuss ways to make it better.

The problem with that is a lot of the things you want to “make it better” I say would make it worse. I don’t want progression. At all. And a lot of people agree with me. Maybe it’s even, maybe it isn’t. But those of us on the no progression said automatically win for one simple reason; Arena Net doesn’t want progression. If they did then the game would have had progression from the beginning.

We can compromise of course. I don’t think anyone would have a problem with raids or progression if it were cosmetic only, or something other than stats and wasn’t used as a content gate. But progression and raiding as they are in other games? No.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Aeonblade.8709:

If you enjoy the game so much, go play it how it is, and let us discuss ways to make it better.

The problem with that is a lot of the things you want to “make it better” I say would make it worse. I don’t want progression. At all. And a lot of people agree with me. Maybe it’s even, maybe it isn’t. But those of us on the no progression said automatically win for one simple reason; Arena Net doesn’t want progression. If they did then the game would have had progression from the beginning.

We can compromise of course. I don’t think anyone would have a problem with raids or progression if it were cosmetic only, or something other than stats and wasn’t used as a content gate. But progression and raiding as they are in other games? No.

I have no desire for stat based progression either. This thread has mainly been about the point of design decisions in game during inception/creation and up until today. It’s got a very contradictory design on the whole at the moment.

You may have been talking to someone else about raid progression, because I have no desire to raid or have a traditional treadmill

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

If you’ve played GW2, you’ll notice its just a different take on WoW, Anet’s take on it, but there is clear inspiration in EQ-like games rather than in GW1. There are dozens of kill 10 rats quests, and the interesting quests just got moved out into the open world. That’s it, that’s really the main “shaking up” GW2 did, right until you reach max level, where Anet says “the game is over guys, make an alt until we make new content you can beat in a few hours.”

From my perspective what’s happening is that the devs are not industry veterans in MMO’s, since GW1 was hardly an MMO, and thus the game has very muddled core design goals.

Except that the founders of Arena Net also made a little game called World of Warcraft.

Oh yeh completely forgot about that, I guess the design is muddled b/c they were trying something new and paradoxical to the endgame.

You’re still struggling with that whole “subjective opinion” thing aren’t you? I like Guild Wars 2 as it is, and so do lots of other people. And clearly it was designed with players like us in mind. You say paradoxical to the endgame, I say improvement. I like that there is no progression, I like that “the whole game is endgame” and I like that there isn’t a mandatory Skinner Box.

You’ve already said that you’re going to uninstall and quit the game, while you’re at it stop signing into the forums. You’re not happy here and we’re not happy with you here; you’re preaching to people who disagree and don’t want to hear it, and banging your head against a brick wall with your arguments. Just stop. Go do something else. You’ll feel a lot better, I promise.

There are things that are more true than others, if everything was just subjective you couldn’t argue for or against anything. You can spout back GW2’s PR team all you want it doesn’t make it true. It really comes down to your definition to endgame. If its just something to do after “beating the game” then literally every game has endgame. Zelda will have endgame because you can go back and do all the sidequests, beat the game with 3 hearts, and then 4 hearts, and then with 4 hearts while standing on one foot.

When most people say endgame in MMO’s they mean activities that continue to reward you past max level. The whole game isn’t endgame because you get the most rewards only in certain sections of the gameworld. This is like the players in a game where the endgame is economy based saying “the whole world is endgame” because everything drops coins, yet fails to mention the level 1 rats only drop like 1 copper.

The game is designed so that it wants you to grind, but not too much, but not too little. Really the only ppl it makes really happy are altaholics probably, as with hardcore play you can get several alts fully geared up without hitting DR. This is how the game is DESIGNED, very schizophrenic. Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Aeonblade.8709:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Aeonblade.8709:

If you enjoy the game so much, go play it how it is, and let us discuss ways to make it better.

The problem with that is a lot of the things you want to “make it better” I say would make it worse. I don’t want progression. At all. And a lot of people agree with me. Maybe it’s even, maybe it isn’t. But those of us on the no progression said automatically win for one simple reason; Arena Net doesn’t want progression. If they did then the game would have had progression from the beginning.

We can compromise of course. I don’t think anyone would have a problem with raids or progression if it were cosmetic only, or something other than stats and wasn’t used as a content gate. But progression and raiding as they are in other games? No.

I have no desire for stat based progression either. This thread has mainly been about the point of design decisions in game during inception/creation and up until today. It’s got a very contradictory design on the whole at the moment.

You may have been talking to someone else about raid progression, because I have no desire to raid or have a traditional treadmill

Well at this point all these arguments are starting to blur together, so you have my apologies. That said I’ll return to a point I made and that was ignored long ago.

If you don’t like grind; stop grinding.

To sum up a very long and detailed explanation; Arena Net can only produce content so fast, and it has to last. As such new content has a predetermined life span. It is intended to last long enough for them to produce more. Yet players have a nasty habit of grinding through content way too fast, much faster than was intended, and then complaining to no end about the perceived lack of content.

Arena Net can’t keep up. No one could. So the only thing they can do is slow you down by making content take longer, by lowering drop rates, by raising mob health, by nerfing professions. The faster we consume content the more grindy and repetitive the content will become, because that is the only way any game developer can preserve their content’s originally intended lifespan.

If you want drop rates to be reasonable and content to be less of a grind then we, as a community, are going to have to make a real effort to not require diminishing returns and grindy content. Put simply; we have to stop grinding and stop farming.

the uprising.6317:

Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Arena Net specifically said, more than once, that Guild Wars 2 is not a themepark MMO. And as to subjective opinions; this isn’t your game. You didn’t make it. Arena Net did. It is their game, we just play it. Their opinion is the one that counts; not mine and not yours. If they say endgame in GW2 is X, then it is X, you insisting that it should be Y is completely futile and meaningless. And before you talk about what MMOs are again based on other games; what other games say endgame is is also completely futile and meaningless.

Blaine Tog.8304:

His point was, GW2 doesn’t start after you’ve hit level 80, and getting there doesn’t require standing next to 100,000 bears and pressing 1 until they die. The video wasn’t trying to say what you’re interpret it as saying. It was saying, “Look at how fun and awesome or combat is, and look at the cool things you can do and the kitten monsters you can fight! And you get to do all that from the start!”

And while they discovered that grinding to be able to do the fun things isn’t any fun at all, they went and totally ignored that new found knowledge when it came to items? Because right now the discussion is leading right back to this:

RoterFuchs.9216:

Here another approach: Why do casuals dislike the gear treadmill and raids? Because it gates content behind gear. What if I told you that this content was optional and no one forced you to do it? (The same as no one is forcing me to go for certain items, right?)
Just play the rest of the game and in time you might gather enough stuff / money or might have time for a raid and get past that gate. But I guess you don’t want to spend that much time just to achieve this one goal.

These are essentially the same arguments people keep bringing up whenever there’s the discussion that you must grind to acquire special items / legendaries.

In both cases people miss out on content. Be it special items or other playable parts of the game. And it’s both gated behind grind.

It is no fun to grind items either. And that is what this whole thread is about: paradoxical game design. They knew grinding to do the fun stuff sucks, so they improved it. At the same time they totally dumped that principle and went back to good old “Grind all the way!”, with the only difference being, that the items are not needed for progression (but are still very much wanted by the community).

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Arena Net specifically said, more than once, that Guild Wars 2 is not a themepark MMO. And as to subjective opinions; this isn’t your game. You didn’t make it. Arena Net did. It is their game, we just play it. Their opinion is the one that counts; not mine and not yours. If they say endgame in GW2 is X, then it is X, you insisting that it should be Y is completely futile and meaningless. And before you talk about what MMOs are again based on other games; what other games say endgame is is also completely futile and meaningless.

Wow, if you really think GW2 isn’t a themepark MMO then just… I don’t think there’s a point of debating with you. I could probably give you any single player and tell you “its a sandbox”, and you would believe me, look you don’t HAVE to beat the main quest in Zelda, you can do sandbox stuff like stare at walls and examine the texture work, make up challenges like running a circle around the town fastest, and stare at the TV screen for 3 days until you start hallucinating! So many options with limitless entertainment!

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Arena Net specifically said, more than once, that Guild Wars 2 is not a themepark MMO. And as to subjective opinions; this isn’t your game. You didn’t make it. Arena Net did. It is their game, we just play it. Their opinion is the one that counts; not mine and not yours. If they say endgame in GW2 is X, then it is X, you insisting that it should be Y is completely futile and meaningless. And before you talk about what MMOs are again based on other games; what other games say endgame is is also completely futile and meaningless.

Wow, if you really think GW2 isn’t the themepark MMO then just… I don’t think there’s a point of debating with you. I could probably give you any single player and tell you “its a sandbox”, and you would believe me, look you don’t HAVE to beat the main quest in Zelda, you can do sandbox stuff like stare at walls and examine the texture work, make up challenges like running a circle around the town fastest, and stare at the TV screen for 3 days until you start hallucinating! So many options with limitless entertainment!

Now you’re just being insulting. And getting reported for it. But I digress.

Clearly there is no point in this conversation as you are dead set on refusing to admit what kind of game Guild Wars 2 actually is due to some archaic notion of what MMOs have to be. Completely disregarding that MMO isn’t even an independent genre, but rather a multi-player mechanic that could conceivably be applied to any and every genre.

@Uruz Six.6594
Good to see someone that agrees.

@Everyone else:
I’m gonna take off from this thread. You all are getting pretty vicious up in here, and although I’m not really opposed to heated discussions, I just can’t see really see much of anyone actually SEEING anyone else’s viewpoints anymore. If anyone actually wants (for whatever unknown reason) to discuss anything I’ve previously said, just send me a forum PM.

Good luck to all of you.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Except for the fact (and yes it is a fact) that you don’t need anything in the cash shop. And nothing in the cash shop offers an objective advantage,

Black Lion Salvage Kit

And its not about P2W (I don’t think it is) its about the mechanisms in the game that heavily funnel players into buying gems for gold.

morrolan.9608:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Except for the fact (and yes it is a fact) that you don’t need anything in the cash shop. And nothing in the cash shop offers an objective advantage,

Black Lion Salvage Kit

And its not about P2W (I don’t think it is) its about the mechanisms in the game that force players into buying gems for gold.

The Black Lion Salvage kit is not an advantage. All you can do with it is gain mats useful either for gold or crafting. You can obtain max stat gear easily without either, and as such there is no power advantage to having a Black Lion kit. None. Zero. All they will ultimately get you is a lot of useless gold sitting in your account bank and collecting dust.

“But you need those mats and gold for a legendary.”
Legendary weapons are the same as exotics. There is no power advantage to having one.

“But you can turn gold into influence, and influence into karma.”
Nothing you can obtain with karma is better than the exotics you can get a half dozen other ways. There is no power advantage to having a large bank of karma.

“But the influence can help in world-verses-world.”
In world-verses-world influence is used to claim keeps and provide limited use buffs to surrounding players. Objectively better buffs (easier to obtain, faster to craft, mobile) exist without being tied to influence. There is no power advantage to having a large bank of influence.

“But the Black Lion kit saves time. Doing things faster is an advantage.”
Only in a competitive environment wherein time is an official factor in success. PvE is neither competitive nor timed. Saving time is a subjective advantage and thereby not worth discussing. It exists purely within your own mind and does not effect anyone but you negatively nor positively. Drop it and move on with your life.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Clearly there is no point in this conversation as you are dead set on refusing to admit what kind of game Guild Wars 2 actually is due to some archaic notion of what MMOs have to be.

But he’s correct. The game is a theme park, just one with some sand box elements.

Arkham Creed.7358:

The Black Lion Salvage kit is not an advantage. All you can do with it is gain mats useful either for gold or crafting.

You’re just taking a very narrow, very literal view of whats constitutes an advantage. It is objectively better than any salvage kit in the game therefore it is offering something objectively better than the equivalent item in the game and its not cosmetic.

I think I’ll join Korben in jettisoning from this thread, but I’ll just leave this last one here.

Buttercup.5871:

The OP’s argument is that DR affects content. And it does. Say, you 4 hours a week, all in one evening. Say you just want to do one particular part of the game on that evening. DR will tell you to stop that content after less than 1 hour. Because, simply put, the rewards will stop. And rewards are part of the gaming experience. Take out the reward part, and – for most people – that dimishes the fun of experiencing that content. It’s that simple.

I don’t get this argument. DR says I can’t farm one spot incessantly for less than one hour. It doesn’t say I can’t farm my way around a zone, hitting up mobs and nodes as I go. It doesn’t say that I can’t switch to another alt if I gather up all the nodes in that zone.

Anthony B. came out and admitted that Anet does not mind farming and laid out the instigators as an example of ‘this is OK.’ They just don’t want you botting one zone ’til the cows come home.

Now, let’s take it one step further and apply this example to practice. Let’s consider the above person is part of a guild that has more time on their hands. They run dungeons, competitive WvW, etc. Let’s say this person wants to deck him/herself out in one set of dungeon gear, within the least amount of time possible (of which that person has FAR less than the others), so that he/she can join the guild on their runs. To have a fun experience with his guild (and without dying every other minute due to a lack of gear, which is definitely not fun). Arenanet says: No. You shall do other dungeons first, or other zones, whatever you want – except what you want to do now. That’s part of the problem the OP was talking about. It’s schizophrenic game design. DR doesn’t just punish the “grinders”, it punishes everyone.

I’m not getting this argument either. What’s preventing this person from getting good stat gear from the market or karma vendors? Why doesn’t he take his time to build himself up the set he wants, you’ve already said his time is limited so its not like he’s going to get it all in one sitting to begin with.

You’re taking select, perhaps fringe examples, to say the game design is ‘schizophrenic.’ That’s not a good argument, even less so when you’re considering a game population in six-to-seven digits. You can’t appease everyone, you do what you can to make sure the vast majority is appeased.

morrolan.9608:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Clearly there is no point in this conversation as you are dead set on refusing to admit what kind of game Guild Wars 2 actually is due to some archaic notion of what MMOs have to be.

But he’s correct. The game is a theme park, just one with some sand box elements.

Actually no. One of the developers (and again; it is their game so their views supersede all of ours, including yours) sated that Guild Wars 2 was “a sandbox full of themeparks.” It may seem an unimportant distinction, but it really isn’t. What that means is each type of content in the game is self-contained; there is no overriding “endgame” or “progression” of universal goal of Guild Wars 2 at all. Instead we are supposed to pick an element of the game we like, or a type of content, and stick with that.

For example; unlike in WoW you don’t PvE as a way to gear up for PvP. PvP and PvE are self-contained content that do not require any overlap on the part of the player. As such if you are the type who wants challenging content and endless progression you are supposed to play Fractals. Just Fractals. Fractals is its own game, and its own endgame. It is the place for progression in the same sense that the Living Story is the place for “lore hounds.”

That said I understand that most feel Fractals needs work (I wouldn’t know; I have no interest in that type of content, and as such do not play it), but that is a separate issue for separate threads. If your themepark needs work go to the people managing it and complain and offer suggestions there; my themepark is doing just fine. Fantastically even, so I don’t want to hear it.

morrolan.9608:

Arkham Creed.7358:

The Black Lion Salvage kit is not an advantage. All you can do with it is gain mats useful either for gold or crafting.

You’re just taking a very narrow, very literal view of whats constitutes an advantage. It is objectively better than any salvage kit in the game therefore it is offering something objectively better than the equivalent item in the game and its not cosmetic.

And objectively speaking neither that item nor its in-game equivalent provide an advantage.

“I can do worthless and meaningless things slightly better than you.”
What’s your point?

“He can do worthless and meaningless things slightly better than me.”
What’s your point?

Buttercup.5871:

I know that the flipside, no DR, leads to inflation which punishes casuals even more. I know that. I’m not saying I have a solution, either. Nonetheless, the OP’s argument is spot on.

The solution is to eliminate (well, lessen. eliminating is likely impossible) the need for grind. If you don’t need to farm hour after hour, day after day, to get the stuff you require, then the fact that you get penalized for longtime farming will not be so much of a problem. If something should take a lot of time (legendaries), make the path to this goal more varied, and throw some obstacles in the way that must be overcome by skill or that are fun on their own. If you are not sure if it will be fun for everyone, make alternate routes.

Do not make “longterm commitment” mean “time gating checks” or “mindnumbingly boring endless repetition of the same easy routine”

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Arena Net specifically said, more than once, that Guild Wars 2 is not a themepark MMO. And as to subjective opinions; this isn’t your game. You didn’t make it. Arena Net did. It is their game, we just play it. Their opinion is the one that counts; not mine and not yours. If they say endgame in GW2 is X, then it is X, you insisting that it should be Y is completely futile and meaningless. And before you talk about what MMOs are again based on other games; what other games say endgame is is also completely futile and meaningless.

Wow, if you really think GW2 isn’t the themepark MMO then just… I don’t think there’s a point of debating with you. I could probably give you any single player and tell you “its a sandbox”, and you would believe me, look you don’t HAVE to beat the main quest in Zelda, you can do sandbox stuff like stare at walls and examine the texture work, make up challenges like running a circle around the town fastest, and stare at the TV screen for 3 days until you start hallucinating! So many options with limitless entertainment!

Now you’re just being insulting. And getting reported for it. But I digress.

Clearly there is no point in this conversation as you are dead set on refusing to admit what kind of game Guild Wars 2 actually is due to some archaic notion of what MMOs have to be. Completely disregarding that MMO isn’t even an independent genre, but rather a multi-player mechanic that could conceivably be applied to any and every genre.

Themepark games = Mostly dev made content

Sandbox games = Mostly player made content.

Facts. You are wrong, not subjectively, objectively wrong, GW2 is a themepark game with incredibly negligible sandbox elements.

the uprising.6317:

Mirta.5029:

the uprising.6317:

The game is already almost devoid of life, the only time Anet will see casual money again is when they introduce and expansion

Last quarterly report states 36 million profit from both sales and gem sales. That’s far from unprofitable and devoid of life.

the uprising.6317:

Really what’s WRONG with progression in a freaking PVE GAME. Let them hit boars and giraffe’s as hard as they want WHO CARES?

1. No alts if you want to keep up with the treadmill.
2. No playing any other games if you want to keep up with the treadmill.
3. No doing new content if you don’t keep up with the treadmill.
Essentially play heavily on one character only or accept the fact that everything that comes out will be something that you won’t be able to participate in. And when MMO sets such a harsh rule it’s just simpler to leave it and go to an MMO without such gear progression (Gw2 already is not the only one on the market).

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Brilliant.

Anet should thank the stars they already got our money.

Well, darn, that is PRECISELY how the game was advertised! Why did you buy it expecting it to be like the other games they wanted to differentiate themselves with?

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Arena Net specifically said, more than once, that Guild Wars 2 is not a themepark MMO. And as to subjective opinions; this isn’t your game. You didn’t make it. Arena Net did. It is their game, we just play it. Their opinion is the one that counts; not mine and not yours. If they say endgame in GW2 is X, then it is X, you insisting that it should be Y is completely futile and meaningless. And before you talk about what MMOs are again based on other games; what other games say endgame is is also completely futile and meaningless.

Wow, if you really think GW2 isn’t the themepark MMO then just… I don’t think there’s a point of debating with you. I could probably give you any single player and tell you “its a sandbox”, and you would believe me, look you don’t HAVE to beat the main quest in Zelda, you can do sandbox stuff like stare at walls and examine the texture work, make up challenges like running a circle around the town fastest, and stare at the TV screen for 3 days until you start hallucinating! So many options with limitless entertainment!

Now you’re just being insulting. And getting reported for it. But I digress.

Clearly there is no point in this conversation as you are dead set on refusing to admit what kind of game Guild Wars 2 actually is due to some archaic notion of what MMOs have to be. Completely disregarding that MMO isn’t even an independent genre, but rather a multi-player mechanic that could conceivably be applied to any and every genre.

Themepark games = Mostly dev made content

Sandbox games = Mostly player made content.

Facts. You are wrong, not subjectively, objectively wrong, GW2 is a themepark game with incredibly negligible sandbox elements.

Developer intent for their individual project supersedes industry generalizations. Fact.

Also a fact is that I explained what GW2 is in a post just after that one. Know how to work a scroll wheel? Or just click and drag the little bar at the side of your screen.

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Arena Net specifically said, more than once, that Guild Wars 2 is not a themepark MMO. And as to subjective opinions; this isn’t your game. You didn’t make it. Arena Net did. It is their game, we just play it. Their opinion is the one that counts; not mine and not yours. If they say endgame in GW2 is X, then it is X, you insisting that it should be Y is completely futile and meaningless. And before you talk about what MMOs are again based on other games; what other games say endgame is is also completely futile and meaningless.

Wow, if you really think GW2 isn’t the themepark MMO then just… I don’t think there’s a point of debating with you. I could probably give you any single player and tell you “its a sandbox”, and you would believe me, look you don’t HAVE to beat the main quest in Zelda, you can do sandbox stuff like stare at walls and examine the texture work, make up challenges like running a circle around the town fastest, and stare at the TV screen for 3 days until you start hallucinating! So many options with limitless entertainment!

Now you’re just being insulting. And getting reported for it. But I digress.

Clearly there is no point in this conversation as you are dead set on refusing to admit what kind of game Guild Wars 2 actually is due to some archaic notion of what MMOs have to be. Completely disregarding that MMO isn’t even an independent genre, but rather a multi-player mechanic that could conceivably be applied to any and every genre.

Themepark games = Mostly dev made content

Sandbox games = Mostly player made content.

Facts. You are wrong, not subjectively, objectively wrong, GW2 is a themepark game with incredibly negligible sandbox elements.

Developer intent for their individual project supersedes industry generalizations. Fact.

Also a fact is that I explained what GW2 is in a post just after that one. Know how to work a scroll wheel? Or just click and drag the little bar at the side of your screen.

How does developer intent possibly supersede industry generalizations? Its like if Blizzard thought WoW was a sandbox game, that doesn’t stop it from being mostly a themepark game when looked at from the scope of the entire industry. Also, I would really like to meet this magical “arena-net target audience”, I doubt even a majority that bought this game due to the advertisements or hype fit this narrow subset of players.

And by the way you talk, are you sure you aren’t the troll?

RoterFuchs.9216:

Vayne.8563:

Why do you take an entire paragraph…highlight the bit to prove your point and completely IGNORE the last line of the paragraph which says, “we want to change the way people view combat.”

It’s about the combat. It’s about having fun things to do from level 1. How this equates to gear grind in your mind shows a complete lack of reading comprehension.

The fun stuff isn’t items. They’re talking about the fact that you can fight a big boss right in the starter zone. You can jump into PVP as a level 80 character without playing PVE at all or leveling at all. You can even jump into WvW at a low level if you want. That’s it. Anything else you’ve read into it is your own problem.

Edit: Does the paragraph mention gear at all? No. Does it mention crafting? No. It mentions fun things to do and combat. That’s what the paragraph is about.

How does it relate to gear grind? Simple. Gear is mostly acquired through crafting or RNG in this game. How do you achieve either of it? Combat. Is combat in itself fun? Yes. Is it fun killing hundreds and thousands of mobs to acquire one final item? No.

“In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, ocassionally"

And with GW2 they wanted to have fun stuff always and everywhere. So where are my fun tasks to acquire mats? Where is the fun, alternative way to grinding?

Oh and btw, that paragraph also isn’t talking about fighting bosses early on, or WvW, or sPvP. Dunno where you got that. So right back at you.

The problem here is that in the paragraph fun stuff and fighting are connected, because it had to be brief and combat is the one thing you will do throughout the entire game. Of course it is connected to fun stuff. But that doesn’t mean fun stuff is only connected to combat. And as I have already said earlier, nobody gets to decide what fun stuff is. Except for themselves.

Where I got it from was the myriad of explanations and other interviews about the manifesto, before and since. Obviously you didn’t pay any attention to them. They’re talking about how this game differs from other MMOs. In other MMOs you have to wait for the fun stuff, in Guild Wars 2, you can begin the fun stuff right away. The grind comment is in the same paragraph. Same paragraph means the same topic. It’s pretty self-explanatory. Ending the paragraph with the words we want to change the way people view combat makes it even more self-explanatory. They’re talking about combat and fun things to do. They’re not talking about gear. Combat is mentioned. Fun things to do are mentioned. Gear is not mentioned

One of us is listening to what was said. One of us is superimposing their idea of grind over what is being said. Grind can be used to describe many things. What you call farming, is not grind in old MMO parlance. Grind generally referred specificially to grinding levels or grinding mobs, not farming. Sorry if you didn’t know that, but it’s true. Farming can be construed to be a grind, but that’s not the original use of the word as it pertains to MMOs.

the uprising.6317:

Also, I would really like to meet this magical “arena-net target audience”, I doubt even a majority that bought this game due to the advertisements or hype fit this narrow subset of players.

Hello. Can’t say I’m pleased to meet you.

Joking aside, if a developer intends to make a new type of game with multiple noteworthy differences from industry standards, such as Guild Wars 2, then what that developer prefers to call the game supersedes the term for the closest industry standard. Arena Net referred to Guild Wars 2 as “a sandbox full of themeparks” and that is exactly what it is. And I’ve already explained what that means.

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Arena Net specifically said, more than once, that Guild Wars 2 is not a themepark MMO. And as to subjective opinions; this isn’t your game. You didn’t make it. Arena Net did. It is their game, we just play it. Their opinion is the one that counts; not mine and not yours. If they say endgame in GW2 is X, then it is X, you insisting that it should be Y is completely futile and meaningless. And before you talk about what MMOs are again based on other games; what other games say endgame is is also completely futile and meaningless.

Wow, if you really think GW2 isn’t the themepark MMO then just… I don’t think there’s a point of debating with you. I could probably give you any single player and tell you “its a sandbox”, and you would believe me, look you don’t HAVE to beat the main quest in Zelda, you can do sandbox stuff like stare at walls and examine the texture work, make up challenges like running a circle around the town fastest, and stare at the TV screen for 3 days until you start hallucinating! So many options with limitless entertainment!

Now you’re just being insulting. And getting reported for it. But I digress.

Clearly there is no point in this conversation as you are dead set on refusing to admit what kind of game Guild Wars 2 actually is due to some archaic notion of what MMOs have to be. Completely disregarding that MMO isn’t even an independent genre, but rather a multi-player mechanic that could conceivably be applied to any and every genre.

Themepark games = Mostly dev made content

Sandbox games = Mostly player made content.

Facts. You are wrong, not subjectively, objectively wrong, GW2 is a themepark game with incredibly negligible sandbox elements.

Developer intent for their individual project supersedes industry generalizations. Fact.

Also a fact is that I explained what GW2 is in a post just after that one. Know how to work a scroll wheel? Or just click and drag the little bar at the side of your screen.

I hope this is a joke… That is as stupid as the developers of Call of Duty saying that their games are turn based rpgs. Just because the devs call it something doesn’t mean it is true.
GW2 is a themepark mmo with very few sandbox elements, no matter how you spin it.

Fernling.1729:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Arena Net specifically said, more than once, that Guild Wars 2 is not a themepark MMO. And as to subjective opinions; this isn’t your game. You didn’t make it. Arena Net did. It is their game, we just play it. Their opinion is the one that counts; not mine and not yours. If they say endgame in GW2 is X, then it is X, you insisting that it should be Y is completely futile and meaningless. And before you talk about what MMOs are again based on other games; what other games say endgame is is also completely futile and meaningless.

Wow, if you really think GW2 isn’t the themepark MMO then just… I don’t think there’s a point of debating with you. I could probably give you any single player and tell you “its a sandbox”, and you would believe me, look you don’t HAVE to beat the main quest in Zelda, you can do sandbox stuff like stare at walls and examine the texture work, make up challenges like running a circle around the town fastest, and stare at the TV screen for 3 days until you start hallucinating! So many options with limitless entertainment!

Now you’re just being insulting. And getting reported for it. But I digress.

Clearly there is no point in this conversation as you are dead set on refusing to admit what kind of game Guild Wars 2 actually is due to some archaic notion of what MMOs have to be. Completely disregarding that MMO isn’t even an independent genre, but rather a multi-player mechanic that could conceivably be applied to any and every genre.

Themepark games = Mostly dev made content

Sandbox games = Mostly player made content.

Facts. You are wrong, not subjectively, objectively wrong, GW2 is a themepark game with incredibly negligible sandbox elements.

Developer intent for their individual project supersedes industry generalizations. Fact.

Also a fact is that I explained what GW2 is in a post just after that one. Know how to work a scroll wheel? Or just click and drag the little bar at the side of your screen.

I hope this is a joke… That is as stupid as the developers of Call of Duty saying that their games are turn based rpgs. Just because the devs call it something doesn’t mean it is true.
GW2 is a themepark mmo with very few sandbox elements, no matter how you spin it.

Obviously this doesn’t apply to cookie cutter squeals to existing genres. But when you create new genres or sub-genres it is only logical that naming conventions be the right of the creator. And as to the “themepark with sandbox elements” thing, since everyone is too lazy to scroll up, I’ll re-post the explanation here.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————

One of the developers (and again; it is their game so their views supersede all of ours, including yours) sated that Guild Wars 2 was “a sandbox full of themeparks.” It may seem an unimportant distinction, but it really isn’t. What that means is each type of content in the game is self-contained; there is no overriding “endgame” or “progression” or universal goal of Guild Wars 2 at all. Instead we are supposed to pick an element of the game we like, or a type of content, and stick with that.

For example; unlike in WoW you don’t PvE as a way to gear up for PvP. PvP and PvE are self-contained content that do not require any overlap on the part of the player. As such if you are the type who wants challenging content and endless progression you are supposed to play Fractals. Just Fractals. Fractals is its own game, and its own endgame. It is the place for progression in the same sense that the Living Story is the place for “lore hounds.”

Arkham Creed.7358:

Fernling.1729:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Arena Net specifically said, more than once, that Guild Wars 2 is not a themepark MMO. And as to subjective opinions; this isn’t your game. You didn’t make it. Arena Net did. It is their game, we just play it. Their opinion is the one that counts; not mine and not yours. If they say endgame in GW2 is X, then it is X, you insisting that it should be Y is completely futile and meaningless. And before you talk about what MMOs are again based on other games; what other games say endgame is is also completely futile and meaningless.

Wow, if you really think GW2 isn’t the themepark MMO then just… I don’t think there’s a point of debating with you. I could probably give you any single player and tell you “its a sandbox”, and you would believe me, look you don’t HAVE to beat the main quest in Zelda, you can do sandbox stuff like stare at walls and examine the texture work, make up challenges like running a circle around the town fastest, and stare at the TV screen for 3 days until you start hallucinating! So many options with limitless entertainment!

Now you’re just being insulting. And getting reported for it. But I digress.

Clearly there is no point in this conversation as you are dead set on refusing to admit what kind of game Guild Wars 2 actually is due to some archaic notion of what MMOs have to be. Completely disregarding that MMO isn’t even an independent genre, but rather a multi-player mechanic that could conceivably be applied to any and every genre.

Themepark games = Mostly dev made content

Sandbox games = Mostly player made content.

Facts. You are wrong, not subjectively, objectively wrong, GW2 is a themepark game with incredibly negligible sandbox elements.

Developer intent for their individual project supersedes industry generalizations. Fact.

Also a fact is that I explained what GW2 is in a post just after that one. Know how to work a scroll wheel? Or just click and drag the little bar at the side of your screen.

I hope this is a joke… That is as stupid as the developers of Call of Duty saying that their games are turn based rpgs. Just because the devs call it something doesn’t mean it is true.
GW2 is a themepark mmo with very few sandbox elements, no matter how you spin it.

Obviously this doesn’t apply to cookie cutter squeals to existing genres. But when you create new genres or sub-genres it is only logical that naming conventions be the right of the creator. And as to the “themepark with sandbox elements” thing, since everyone is too lazy to scroll up, I’ll re-post the explanation here.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————

One of the developers (and again; it is their game so their views supersede all of ours, including yours) sated that Guild Wars 2 was “a sandbox full of themeparks.” It may seem an unimportant distinction, but it really isn’t. What that means is each type of content in the game is self-contained; there is no overriding “endgame” or “progression” or universal goal of Guild Wars 2 at all. Instead we are supposed to pick an element of the game we like, or a type of content, and stick with that.

For example; unlike in WoW you don’t PvE as a way to gear up for PvP. PvP and PvE are self-contained content that do not require any overlap on the part of the player. As such if you are the type who wants challenging content and endless progression you are supposed to play Fractals. Just Fractals. Fractals is its own game, and its own endgame. It is the place for progression in the same sense that the Living Story is the place for “lore hounds.”

It doesn’t matter what the developers say, if it isn’t true. It appears you have no idea what a sandbox mmo is, so I’m not going to discuss this any further.

Guild Wars 2 is definitely not a sandbox, in the traditional sense of the sandbox MMO. Eve is a sandbox. Guild Wars 2 is not.

That said, Guild Wars 2 differs from a lot of other theme park MMOs in that you can do things here you can’t do in most MMOs.

Take progressing to max level. You can get all the way to level 80 without ever leaving a starting zone. This illustrates the difference between other theme park MMOs and Guild Wars 2.

In Rift, you stop getting XP once you get too high in a zone. You’re forced into a linear progression. Quest hub, to quest hub, get your experience, until you finish the quests in that hub, when you go to the next hub.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t linear in the same way as other theme park MMOs. That means it gives you more options. More freedom to roam. More freedom to explore.

It’s not a sand box in the traditional sense of the word, but it’s really not a theme park in the traditional sense of the word either. It’s not a hybrid either. It really doesn’t have enough sand box elements.

But since there is no word for what this is, a sandbox full of themeparks isn’t really bad description. That is to say, you can just play around in any area of the game and make progress (except SPvP which is essentially it’s own game).

Vayne.8563:

That said, Guild Wars 2 differs from a lot of other theme park MMOs in that you can do things here you can’t do in most MMOs.

I strongly agree with this as well.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Actually no. One of the developers (and again; it is their game so their views supersede all of ours, including yours)

These terms get defined through general usage not what the creator would like to market it as. Fact the creator wants to paint his product in a certain light not what it may actually be.

morrolan.9608:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Actually no. One of the developers (and again; it is their game so their views supersede all of ours, including yours)

These terms get defined through general usage not what the creator would like to market it as. Fact the creator wants to paint his product in a certain light not what it may actually be.

This is obviously a true statement. But what if the new game doesn’t really fit into existing categories. Guild Wars 2 really doesn’t. It’s not a theme park MMO at least not in the sense that WoW is. It’s certainly not a sandbox. What do you call it BEFORE general usage kicks in.

I’d personally consider Guild Wars 2 a non-linear themepark, but I doubt that would ever catch on.

@creed: you and I differ on the reward bit. You see, Anet does specifically cater the reward crowd. People that went from the instigator to the karka’s:
http://youtu.be/PeSY21J-zAg
Or people that farm cof path 1 all day.
Now, why would you design that, but restrict the rest? Why would you make an open game, but restrict rewards in all zones when people like it there and would like to stay more than 1 hour?

I’ll tell you why. They used the reward crowd for what they deem necessary at that time. For southsun, this was an influx of bloods, karka shells and passion flowers. That’s why some zones contain thorough restrictions (specifically lodestone mob zones), and in other zones it’s encouraged gameplay.

Anet is trying to get us to learn the game through specific content. The F&F event learned us to combat condition mobs through high vitality (sentinel gear). The Southsun event learns us to combat high power mobs (karka) through toughness (settler gear). I know the bigger picture. I just don’t always like it. I don’t always like the “leash” in a game that pretends to be open but closes the back doors in every possible way. The back door being DR.

This thread has realy taken a wide turn :P

It does not feel like it’s about “On inconsistent and paradoxical game design” at all anymore.

However to the topic I must say I myself (As stated many times) has never fealt the need to grind for anything in this game and I haven’t grinded at all and I still got 7 chars with all almost with full exotics ( I could have but I don’t enjoy all classes much enough to gear them with exotics yet).
I first started to grind atleast 1 hour a day for two weeks after Secret of the southsun wen’t live just becouse it was so easy but I never grinded to have a goal on getting the weapon ticket, sure I hope I get one before this event goes away. They have naver made me feeling the need to grind anything.

Everyone has their own opinions and ways to play thier game, som are casual and some are farmers and so on.

I moved away from a MMO that was all about farming and doing raids and dungeons over and over again to gain better gear. When GW2 came out they had their new expansion and they whent from level 75 to 85 and I had the best gear for 75… Now if I wan’t better gear I have to do the hardest raids at hardest difficulties and do them over and over again until I get my full gear.
In that game I have to grind to get better gear and to be able to do content with my guild without being a weight to the group.

Here in GW2 I got exotic gear, my character is as good as the full Arah suited character in the game. What makes me good or bad in this game is how I play the game and not becouse I have the best gear or the legendary weapons or have farmed since the release of this game.
Heh, I even think that a player with a Legendary at this moment can have a harder time to survive another Dungeon than CoF than a player enoying the game to the fullest.

I agree with Vayne, but I could say the contrary about GW2 not being sanbox/Themepark and say it has both elements for the same reasons, so it’s not wrong for Marketing to say it’s a sandbox game in my opinion.

Vayne.8563:

I’d personally consider Guild Wars 2 a non-linear themepark, but I doubt that would ever catch on.

Non-linear themepark is actually a pretty good description.

Dante.1508:

Honestly if anyone by now has played a few hundred hours in this game can see how grindy GW2 has become, also how much enjoyment has been sucked away due to nerfs and loot limitations, its bad, really bad..

Vayne says have goals, i had goals, i finished it i made 8 professions at 80 fully geared, i’ve played over 3000 hours here too, i never wanted a legendary they are stupid skins aimed at the lowest common denominators to grind on..
My annoyance is the rest of the game is hindered by them, cannot craft anything nice because it needs the same crap legendaries need, so they are just as hard to make, to make anything is painful with the Crap GW2 economy and the Crap loot tables…

Hopping in here. Permit me a little story.

I’m one of those “kids” Vayne tends to like to lambast (I’m a little more than half his age) for wanting stuff now. I play this game with my boyfriend as a way for us to play together while I earn money and prepare to move to the UK to be with him. That is a long term goal to have and one that I WANT to take several years to accomplish as I pay down student loan debt and save for the move and our eventual wedding. My boyfriend is worth waiting for.

The Juggernaut? Not so much. I, too, want to have my Legendary for my warrior in a reasonable (6-9 months) amount of time. I hate paying money for mats and things unless I absolutely have to. Since I don’t want to spend money, the other option is to farm those mats. I, too, have noticed that the drop rate for mats and things has been nerfed into the ground. So I get to stretch my farming another 3-6 months and maybe I’ll get my Juggernaut in a year from now. But I don’t want it a year from now, I want it by September at the latest. So what am I going to do? Will I have to buck up and buy the mats off the TP even though I really don’t want to? Or do I have to scrimp the little IRL money I have, buy gems, convert to gold and just buy Juggernaut outright?

And Juggernaut isn’t even the least of my goals. I want Bifrost and I want double Infinite Light for my guardian and mesmer respectively, as well as full exotics/runes/trinkets/back pieces/stuff for all of my alts. Those are things that I will have to spend a fair bit of time praying that I get the mats for them. But if I can’t farm them easily, I’ll have to spend the gold for them and I don’t want to, except for the runes, the armor and some of the weapons. Period. Plain and simple.

Is it so wrong of me to want to have Juggernaut to start with by September, getting all the mats myself, spending when absolutely necessary and the other weapons over time? No, it isn’t. But when the avenues that I take to get those weapons are being shut down on a regular basis, can’t you see why I’m a little angry?

Edit: Also, some of the mats you CAN’T farm past a certain level. The silver doubloons for Juggernaut are only found on level 20-30 chars. So those I’ll need to buy. The lodestones and such I want to farm…but can’t as my spots are nerfed. So what can I do?

@Kyven

Why is your boyfriend worth waiting for and not a Juggernaut/infinite lights/etc?

Kyven.7514:

Hopping in here. Permit me a little story.

I’m one of those “kids” Vayne tends to like to lambast (I’m a little more than half his age) for wanting stuff now. I play this game with my boyfriend as a way for us to play together while I earn money and prepare to move to the UK to be with him. That is a long term goal to have and one that I WANT to take several years to accomplish as I pay down student loan debt and save for the move and our eventual wedding. My boyfriend is worth waiting for.

The Juggernaut? Not so much. I, too, want to have my Legendary for my warrior in a reasonable (6-9 months) amount of time. I hate paying money for mats and things unless I absolutely have to. Since I don’t want to spend money, the other option is to farm those mats. I, too, have noticed that the drop rate for mats and things has been nerfed into the ground. So I get to stretch my farming another 3-6 months and maybe I’ll get my Juggernaut in a year from now. But I don’t want it a year from now, I want it by September at the latest. So what am I going to do? Will I have to buck up and buy the mats off the TP even though I really don’t want to? Or do I have to scrimp the little IRL money I have, buy gems, convert to gold and just buy Juggernaut outright?

And Juggernaut isn’t even the least of my goals. I want Bifrost and I want double Infinite Light for my guardian and mesmer respectively, as well as full exotics/runes/trinkets/back pieces/stuff for all of my alts. Those are things that I will have to spend a fair bit of time praying that I get the mats for them. But if I can’t farm them easily, I’ll have to spend the gold for them and I don’t want to, except for the runes, the armor and some of the weapons. Period. Plain and simple.

Is it so wrong of me to want to have Juggernaut to start with by September, getting all the mats myself, spending when absolutely necessary and the other weapons over time? No, it isn’t. But when the avenues that I take to get those weapons are being shut down on a regular basis, can’t you see why I’m a little angry?

Edit: Also, some of the mats you CAN’T farm past a certain level. The silver doubloons for Juggernaut are only found on level 20-30 chars. So those I’ll need to buy. The lodestones and such I want to farm…but can’t as my spots are nerfed. So what can I do?

Of course it’s not wrong to want Juggernaut by September. But whether this is wrong or not isn’t really the point. The point is, the game doesn’t exist for you or any one person alone. Anet, like all companies, is a business, and all businesses need to make money to exist and pay staff. So the question becomes, what does the ability for you personally to get the Juggernaut by September do to the game as a whole?

The game itself has a great deal of potential and some glaring flaws. Some of the flaws probably didn’t show up till it launched and people ran through it. That means that Anet has been in damage control mode pretty much since launch. That also means that they need to find ways to keep people in game while they fix these things.

This isn’t a new story or an uncommon one. It’s basically the story of just about every MMO that’s come down the pike, including WoW. But WoW had a couple of major advantages at launch. It had a rich company that could advertise, with relatively little competition. So it was able to survive, fix most of what was wrong and eventually thrive.

MMOs really do take years to develop and settle down AFTER launch. Even Guild Wars 1 took a couple of years to really come into its own, and that’s not a true MMO.

So the thing is, Anet has ways to get people back into the game with temporary content, and they have longer term goals to keep people in game like legendaries. During this time, they’re working hard to fix the core of the game, so they can build a better game on top of it.

Those playing the game either understand this, or they move on. That’s the same as just about any MMO I can remember. The only way any MMO from this point on will ever be successful is for a company to do basically what Anet is doing. Fixing it while it’s working and hope to eventually have enough people left to pay for the game moving forwards.

In the end, the game does what serves the game best. It’s not here for one person. It’s here to fulfill the vision of the designers who, as always, find that envisioning something in your head is much harder than it is to bring to life.

They’ve started, but they’ve got a long way to go. The stop gap measures to keep people logging in only work on certain people. If they work on enough people the game will eventually stabilize and move forward.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a legendary weapon in six months or nine months or a year. But that has nothing to do with the game, only what you want.

330+ Posts, keep throwing out ideas and opinions guys, all we can do is make our voices heard for the problems the game needs to be fixed. It’s a long shot, but we have to keep at it Lot’s of good reads in here!

penatbater.4710:

@Kyven

Why is your boyfriend worth waiting for and not a Juggernaut/infinite lights/etc?

Because this is only a game. And games are temporary. In about 6-7 years (or hell 6-9 months) there will be new shinies that people will go after. Relationships, on the other hand, are permanent.

Vayne.8563:

Of course it’s not wrong to want Juggernaut by September. But whether this is wrong or not isn’t really the point. The point is, the game doesn’t exist for you or any one person alone. Anet, like all companies, is a business, and all businesses need to make money to exist and pay staff. So the question becomes, what does the ability for you personally to get the Juggernaut by September do to the game as a whole?

The game itself has a great deal of potential and some glaring flaws. Some of the flaws probably didn’t show up till it launched and people ran through it. That means that Anet has been in damage control mode pretty much since launch. That also means that they need to find ways to keep people in game while they fix these things.

snip

There is nothing wrong with wanting a legendary weapon in six months or nine months or a year. But that has nothing to do with the game, only what you want.

I can appreciate that they are a business and want people to enjoy the game as much as possible/make goals as not as easy to get to make sure people play the game longer. Nor am I one of those who are frothing at the mouth and shrieking “ANET SUCKKKKKS” whenever something happens that I don’t like. I’m a patient woman. I can take my time getting what I want.

But at the same time…a friend of mine got her Bifrost the same way I want to get my Juggernaut. She played the game, collecting the dust and mats and buying what she could when she could. She farmed in spots, grinded out her last 40 Skill points in one night, a friend of hers got lucky in the forge and gave her The Legend. In 8 months, she got her legendary. But that was BEFORE the farming nerfs and other stealthy, sneaky things that Anet have done to prolong the experience of getting a legendary. Look at the forums. There are a lot of angry threads about the sneaky, underhanded, let’s-just-nerf-this-and-hope-the-players-don’t-notice stealth nerfs to popular farms. Orr is unpopulated and has been since the April patch that killed a lot of it. Even I’ve noticed some of my favorite spots in Frostgorge have had their loot changed. And we are NOT told about it, we’re supposed to guess.

So now I’m supposed to simply kick back, relax, play the game and explore the world while hoping that I get enough of the mats I want magically falls into my lap? I have been playing the game 3 months and I have only 20 Elaborate totems that I picked up myself. I have 43 Crystalline dust because my boyfriend gave me half of that. I have similar amounts of the other mats with little to no hope that I can get more because I don’t want to buy them off the TP. And yet Vayne here has 3000 hours over how many months with his Legendary already and my friend has her Bifrost. I want what they spent hours and hours of their time in about the same amount of time that they got it.

Vayne: you’re absolutely right. I agree with and respect your opinion on everything you said. Me having or not having Juggernaut and/or Bifrost and/or the double Infinite Light makes zero difference in the grand scheme of the game. Anet made a game for everyone. A game I enjoy. A game you enjoy. A game lots of us enjoy. I still enjoy this game as much every time I play as I did when I first installed it. It just gets me angry that if I want to spend some time farming on the one day of the week I do farm, my spots get nerfed into the ground. So what do people like me, who want to acquire a legendary by themselves with little to no TP buying, do if we can’t get the stuff we need?

Vayne: inb4 you say “then don’t farm hahaha”. Here’s the thing: I don’t make farming the end all be all of my play time. I pick ONE day out of the week and I go off in search of stuff to kill for mats. The other days I’m leveling alts, exploring the world, crafting items, reading the forums and so on. It’s disheartening to see a noticeable trend downwards in the amount of mats and stuff I used to get while Anet doesn’t tell us what they do.

penatbater.4710:

@Kyven

Why is your boyfriend worth waiting for and not a Juggernaut/infinite lights/etc?

Cooler particle effects?

Kyven.7514:

penatbater.4710:

@Kyven

Why is your boyfriend worth waiting for and not a Juggernaut/infinite lights/etc?

Because this is only a game. And games are temporary. In about 6-7 years (or hell 6-9 months) there will be new shinies that people will go after. Relationships, on the other hand, are permanent.

Vayne.8563:

snip

There is nothing wrong with wanting a legendary weapon in six months or nine months or a year. But that has nothing to do with the game, only what you want.

I can appreciate that they are a business and want people to enjoy the game as much as possible/make goals as not as easy to get to make sure people play the game longer. Nor am I one of those who are frothing at the mouth and shrieking “ANET SUCKKKKKS” whenever something happens that I don’t like. I’m a patient woman. I can take my time getting what I want.

But at the same time…a friend of mine got her Bifrost the same way I want to get my Juggernaut. She played the game, collecting the dust and mats and buying what she could when she could. She farmed in spots, grinded out her last 40 Skill points in one night, a friend of hers got lucky in the forge and gave her The Legend. In 8 months, she got her legendary. But that was BEFORE the farming nerfs and other stealthy, sneaky things that Anet have done to prolong the experience of getting a legendary. Look at the forums. There are a lot of angry threads about the sneaky, underhanded, let’s-just-nerf-this-and-hope-the-players-don’t-notice stealth nerfs to popular farms. Orr is unpopulated and has been since the April patch that killed a lot of it. Even I’ve noticed some of my favorite spots in Frostgorge have had their loot changed. And we are NOT told about it, we’re supposed to guess.

So now I’m supposed to simply kick back, relax, play the game and explore the world while hoping that I get enough of the mats I want magically falls into my lap? I have been playing the game 3 months and I have only 20 Elaborate totems that I picked up myself. I have 43 Crystalline dust because my boyfriend gave me half of that. I have similar amounts of the other mats with little to no hope that I can get more because I don’t want to buy them off the TP. And yet Vayne here has 3000 hours over how many months with his Legendary already and my friend has her Bifrost. I want what they spent hours and hours of their time in about the same amount of time that they got it.

Vayne: you’re absolutely right. I agree with and respect your opinion on everything you said. Me having or not having Juggernaut and/or Bifrost and/or the double Infinite Light makes zero difference in the grand scheme of the game. Anet made a game for everyone. A game I enjoy. A game you enjoy. A game lots of us enjoy. I still enjoy this game as much every time I play as I did when I first installed it. It just gets me angry that if I want to spend some time farming on the one day of the week I do farm, my spots get nerfed into the ground. So what do people like me, who want to acquire a legendary by themselves with little to no TP buying, do if we can’t get the stuff we need?

Vayne: inb4 you say “then don’t farm hahaha”. Here’s the thing: I don’t make farming the end all be all of my play time. I pick ONE day out of the week and I go off in search of stuff to kill for mats. The other days I’m leveling alts, exploring the world, crafting items, reading the forums and so on. It’s disheartening to see a noticeable trend downwards in the amount of mats and stuff I used to get while Anet doesn’t tell us what they do.

No, you’re not. Anet should just let everyone get everything at their own time table, you could all leave the game and we can all find another one, because that’s what would end up happening.

For everyone person who complains on these forums, there are probably a bunch more who are not complaining because they’re new and don’t know this stuff is nerfed.

Anet doesn’t have hundreds of options. They can’t “fix” the game in a month or two. So these things WILL happen, and some people WILL leave. Whether you’re one of them or not is completely up to you.

But Anet is doing what they have to do for the good of the game, even if what that is kitten es off some people. You either can deal with it or you can’t. It won’t change what they’re going to do, because they need to keep the game going for the people who are enjoying it and playing it for more than just a legendary.

Vayne.8563:

No, you’re not. Anet should just let everyone get everything at their own time table, you could all leave the game and we can all find another one, because that’s what would end up happening.

For everyone person who complains on these forums, there are probably a bunch more who are not complaining because they’re new and don’t know this stuff is nerfed.

Anet doesn’t have hundreds of options. They can’t “fix” the game in a month or two. So these things WILL happen, and some people WILL leave. Whether you’re one of them or not is completely up to you.

But Anet is doing what they have to do for the good of the game, even if what that is kitten es off some people. You either can deal with it or you can’t. It won’t change what they’re going to do, because they need to keep the game going for the people who are enjoying it and playing it for more than just a legendary.

The new people will learn eventually that once they want a legendary or a hard to get exotic and want to farm for it, they won’t be able to and they will join the choir and scream about farming spots getting nerfed, too.

I know that they can’t fix the game in a month; did I say I wanted them to magically pull a bug free version from their behinds RIGHT NOW? Nope. I want to stick with this game and see what they have to offer through the rest of the summer, the fall, the winter and next spring. I have no issues with that.

Besides, I’m not playing for just the legendary. I play it because playing games with my boyfriend is fun. I play it because I’m an altoholic and want to play all the classes and experience all the things with each fresh new char. I play it because wandering the world and experiencing the beauty of Tyria is rewarding. I play it because kicking bums in wwv is satisfying.

What I don’t like is the attitude you have that because we are not in our 50’s and not had the same upbringing and life experiences as you that suddenly all us twenty and thirty somethings are impatient and expect to be given everything on a silver platter and don’t appreciate anything once we get it; just like your son. I expect nothing to be served up when I want it how I want it, including the legendary. I can wait for it. But would you agree that 6 to 9 months for a legendary is a decent amount of time to expect one? I’m going to assume that you’ve been playing since August, which was 10 months ago. You have your Legendary and from what I read, got it in about the same time as I want mine in the same method I want to get mine: by wandering the world, collecting mats, hoping for lucky drops, so on. So for you to sit here and tell me “Kyven, you are not patient enough for a legendary” is patronizing indeed. For that, you can go take a very long walk off a very short pier.

Vayne.8563:

But Anet is doing what they have to do for the good of the game, even if what that is kitten es off some people. You either can deal with it or you can’t. It won’t change what they’re going to do, because they need to keep the game going for the people who are enjoying it and playing it for more than just a legendary.

So how does nerfing farming, which make legendaries and other high end items harder, effect those who are playing the game for more than a legendary?

How is it for the good of the game to make stealth nerfs to farming and not be transparent with players?

The game is meant to be fun, by increasing the effort to make legendaries to an almost impossible grind (as opposed to a more skill based solution), as well as being based on pure luck, they make people like myself give up on that goal, whereas if they kept it to a more reasonable level I’d get one and most likely look to get a second one. Instead the second a comparable game comes out I am gone and I’m now pretty much just doing WvW and guild events until that happens.

Kyven.7514:

Vayne.8563:

No, you’re not. Anet should just let everyone get everything at their own time table, you could all leave the game and we can all find another one, because that’s what would end up happening.

For everyone person who complains on these forums, there are probably a bunch more who are not complaining because they’re new and don’t know this stuff is nerfed.

Anet doesn’t have hundreds of options. They can’t “fix” the game in a month or two. So these things WILL happen, and some people WILL leave. Whether you’re one of them or not is completely up to you.

But Anet is doing what they have to do for the good of the game, even if what that is kitten es off some people. You either can deal with it or you can’t. It won’t change what they’re going to do, because they need to keep the game going for the people who are enjoying it and playing it for more than just a legendary.

The new people will learn eventually that once they want a legendary or a hard to get exotic and want to farm for it, they won’t be able to and they will join the choir and scream about farming spots getting nerfed, too.

I know that they can’t fix the game in a month; did I say I wanted them to magically pull a bug free version from their behinds RIGHT NOW? Nope. I want to stick with this game and see what they have to offer through the rest of the summer, the fall, the winter and next spring. I have no issues with that.

Besides, I’m not playing for just the legendary. I play it because playing games with my boyfriend is fun. I play it because I’m an altoholic and want to play all the classes and experience all the things with each fresh new char. I play it because wandering the world and experiencing the beauty of Tyria is rewarding. I play it because kicking bums in wwv is satisfying.

What I don’t like is the attitude you have that because we are not in our 50’s and not had the same upbringing and life experiences as you that suddenly all us twenty and thirty somethings are impatient and expect to be given everything on a silver platter and don’t appreciate anything once we get it; just like your son. I expect nothing to be served up when I want it how I want it, including the legendary. I can wait for it. But would you agree that 6 to 9 months for a legendary is a decent amount of time to expect one? I’m going to assume that you’ve been playing since August, which was 10 months ago. You have your Legendary and from what I read, got it in about the same time as I want mine in the same method I want to get mine: by wandering the world, collecting mats, hoping for lucky drops, so on. So for you to sit here and tell me “Kyven, you are not patient enough for a legendary” is patronizing indeed. For that, you can go take a very long walk off a very short pier.

I don’t really have much of a problem with anything you’ve said. What you’re not seeing is that you’re still the exception not the rule. Far more patient that most players these days. And that’s part of the problem with the genre in general. As long as the bulk of the population wants things fast (and your fast isn’t everyone else’s fast, you’re pretty reasonable), MMORPGs will continue to suffer the same fate they’ve had these last five years. It’s the reliance on loot (and again I’m not saying YOUR reliance on loot, I’m talking generally) that has really sunk this genre for many of us.

And you know, my point of view is not just me. There are a whole lot of people who agree with me.

Vayne.8563:

Kyven.7514:

Vayne.8563:

No, you’re not. Anet should just let everyone get everything at their own time table, you could all leave the game and we can all find another one, because that’s what would end up happening.

For everyone person who complains on these forums, there are probably a bunch more who are not complaining because they’re new and don’t know this stuff is nerfed.

Anet doesn’t have hundreds of options. They can’t “fix” the game in a month or two. So these things WILL happen, and some people WILL leave. Whether you’re one of them or not is completely up to you.

But Anet is doing what they have to do for the good of the game, even if what that is kitten es off some people. You either can deal with it or you can’t. It won’t change what they’re going to do, because they need to keep the game going for the people who are enjoying it and playing it for more than just a legendary.

The new people will learn eventually that once they want a legendary or a hard to get exotic and want to farm for it, they won’t be able to and they will join the choir and scream about farming spots getting nerfed, too.

I know that they can’t fix the game in a month; did I say I wanted them to magically pull a bug free version from their behinds RIGHT NOW? Nope. I want to stick with this game and see what they have to offer through the rest of the summer, the fall, the winter and next spring. I have no issues with that.

Besides, I’m not playing for just the legendary. I play it because playing games with my boyfriend is fun. I play it because I’m an altoholic and want to play all the classes and experience all the things with each fresh new char. I play it because wandering the world and experiencing the beauty of Tyria is rewarding. I play it because kicking bums in wwv is satisfying.

What I don’t like is the attitude you have that because we are not in our 50’s and not had the same upbringing and life experiences as you that suddenly all us twenty and thirty somethings are impatient and expect to be given everything on a silver platter and don’t appreciate anything once we get it; just like your son. I expect nothing to be served up when I want it how I want it, including the legendary. I can wait for it. But would you agree that 6 to 9 months for a legendary is a decent amount of time to expect one? I’m going to assume that you’ve been playing since August, which was 10 months ago. You have your Legendary and from what I read, got it in about the same time as I want mine in the same method I want to get mine: by wandering the world, collecting mats, hoping for lucky drops, so on. So for you to sit here and tell me “Kyven, you are not patient enough for a legendary” is patronizing indeed. For that, you can go take a very long walk off a very short pier.

I don’t really have much of a problem with anything you’ve said. What you’re not seeing is that you’re still the exception not the rule. Far more patient that most players these days. And that’s part of the problem with the genre in general. As long as the bulk of the population wants things fast (and your fast isn’t everyone else’s fast, you’re pretty reasonable), MMORPGs will continue to suffer the same fate they’ve had these last five years. It’s the reliance on loot (and again I’m not saying YOUR reliance on loot, I’m talking generally) that has really sunk this genre for many of us.

And you know, my point of view is not just me. There are a whole lot of people who agree with me.

Glad that we could agree on something.

This is my first MMO and I enjoy the experience so far. And sometimes I do feel like the Skinner rat mentioned upthread-press button, expect reward. Sometimes it isn’t about the loot. It’s about finding a new thing in Brisban Wilds I hadn’t noticed before. It’s about learning a little more about Orr and wondering how beautiful it would have been back in the day. It’s about murdering as many of the enemy zerg as I can before they murder me. Perhaps the genre does rely a little too much on loot-I wouldn’t know. But I know enough that grinding is boring but necessary yet the spots to acquire drops for items is slowly disappearing for whatever reason without telling us the players why. And the mats for legendaries do require to a certain extent some grinding. That’s why so many of us are complaining.

Kyven.7514:

Dante.1508:

Honestly if anyone by now has played a few hundred hours in this game can see how grindy GW2 has become, also how much enjoyment has been sucked away due to nerfs and loot limitations, its bad, really bad..

Vayne says have goals, i had goals, i finished it i made 8 professions at 80 fully geared, i’ve played over 3000 hours here too, i never wanted a legendary they are stupid skins aimed at the lowest common denominators to grind on..
My annoyance is the rest of the game is hindered by them, cannot craft anything nice because it needs the same crap legendaries need, so they are just as hard to make, to make anything is painful with the Crap GW2 economy and the Crap loot tables…

Hopping in here. Permit me a little story.

I’m one of those “kids” Vayne tends to like to lambast (I’m a little more than half his age) for wanting stuff now. I play this game with my boyfriend as a way for us to play together while I earn money and prepare to move to the UK to be with him. That is a long term goal to have and one that I WANT to take several years to accomplish as I pay down student loan debt and save for the move and our eventual wedding. My boyfriend is worth waiting for.

The Juggernaut? Not so much. I, too, want to have my Legendary for my warrior in a reasonable (6-9 months) amount of time. I hate paying money for mats and things unless I absolutely have to. Since I don’t want to spend money, the other option is to farm those mats. I, too, have noticed that the drop rate for mats and things has been nerfed into the ground. So I get to stretch my farming another 3-6 months and maybe I’ll get my Juggernaut in a year from now. But I don’t want it a year from now, I want it by September at the latest. So what am I going to do? Will I have to buck up and buy the mats off the TP even though I really don’t want to? Or do I have to scrimp the little IRL money I have, buy gems, convert to gold and just buy Juggernaut outright?

And Juggernaut isn’t even the least of my goals. I want Bifrost and I want double Infinite Light for my guardian and mesmer respectively, as well as full exotics/runes/trinkets/back pieces/stuff for all of my alts. Those are things that I will have to spend a fair bit of time praying that I get the mats for them. But if I can’t farm them easily, I’ll have to spend the gold for them and I don’t want to, except for the runes, the armor and some of the weapons. Period. Plain and simple.

Is it so wrong of me to want to have Juggernaut to start with by September, getting all the mats myself, spending when absolutely necessary and the other weapons over time? No, it isn’t. But when the avenues that I take to get those weapons are being shut down on a regular basis, can’t you see why I’m a little angry?

Edit: Also, some of the mats you CAN’T farm past a certain level. The silver doubloons for Juggernaut are only found on level 20-30 chars. So those I’ll need to buy. The lodestones and such I want to farm…but can’t as my spots are nerfed. So what can I do?

In case you didn’t know, you can get the full 250 Silver Doubloons from the Mystic Forge-put in low level gems. Way cheaper, and I would bet even less time consuming than trying to board all the gold you need to buy that specific ingredient.

On the other hand, IMHO, your goals are not realistic unless you can play nonstop. One Legendary is time-consuming enough… please don’t do this to yourself, as I doubt ANet intended for players to dual-wield Incinerators after one week of the game going live. There are plenty of more realistic and still nice weapon skins to acquire on your timetable-it isn’t ANet “ruining your fun”, but more you wanting the hard to get stuff much too soon, and multiple times.

Do you really even need these many Legendaries so soon? And how is this the game’s problem? (BTW, I do think that precursors are too hard to get for most casuals, but what you seem to want is much like me saying “I wish I could earn 453,954 dollars in two months, life is so unfair!”)

Best wishes on your wedding plans.

Imho Anet made one big mistake in creating Legendaries the way they are: Making it possible to achieve a longterm-goal in a short time.

They should have added something like a laurel-requirement on the Legendaries, so that it simply takes some time to get them. This way people wouldn’t feel they have to grind 24/7… if you can only get the weapon in a minimum of 12 months people would accumulate mats automatically. A Legendary would show how dedicated a player really is instead of making it possible to buy gems with RL money and turn those into gold to buy it.