Guild Wars 2

RoterFuchs.9216:

At the same time they totally dumped that principle and went back to good old “Grind all the way!”, with the only difference being, that the items are not needed for progression (but are still very much wanted by the community).

This difference makes all the difference.

I feel like I must be misunderstanding your point, because it seems like you’re saying that players are entitled to get whatever they want in the game without any time or effort on their part but that can’t be true. This is an MMO. As much as GW2 departs from the basic formula, it’s still very much a member of its stated genre. Pretty things are supposed to be hard to get in MMOs. That’s how they get their prestige. If everyone had Bifrosts, they wouldn’t be very cool at all. So I must be misunderstanding your point somehow.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Imho Anet made one big mistake in creating Legendaries the way they are: Making it possible to achieve a longterm-goal in a short time.

I’m sure that within a month after release they realized the mistake – precursor and Legendary weapons should have bound to account, if not soulbound on acquire. By the time they realized it, however, it was already too late to change it, so they – and we – have to deal with the situation as it is, not as we want it to be.

There are probably only a small number of people who pulled out their credit cards to shortcut their way to a Legendary, but some of them have probably invested in multiple precursors and/or Legendaries and to take them out of the market now would open up Anet to legal problems, since there can be a monetary value attached to them.

I have hopes, though, that they will learn from their mistakes and the alternate system being developed will feature new precursor and Legendary models that are not tradeable and perhaps even are constructed in a different manner from existing recipes.

Blaine Tog.8304:

I feel like I must be misunderstanding your point, because it seems like you’re saying that players are entitled to get whatever they want in the game without any time or effort on their part but that can’t be true. This is an MMO. As much as GW2 departs from the basic formula, it’s still very much a member of its stated genre. Pretty things are supposed to be hard to get in MMOs. That’s how they get their prestige. If everyone had Bifrosts, they wouldn’t be very cool at all. So I must be misunderstanding your point somehow.

And as long as they are difficult to obtain, some people will complain that they should not be difficult to obtain. If they were to become easy to obtain, then some people will complain that they are easy to obtain – sometimes the same people who complained they were too difficult to obtain.

Essentially, the individual is expressing the belief that it should be easy for HIMSELF – and only himself – to obtain. Because it’s frustrating to want something that you cannot have. But if everyone has it, then it’s not special any more.

tolunart.2095:

I’m sure that within a month after release they realized the mistake – precursor and Legendary weapons should have bound to account, if not soulbound on acquire. By the time they realized it, however, it was already too late to change it, so they – and we – have to deal with the situation as it is, not as we want it to be.

This is certainly not the case. If they wanted to change all future precursor weapons to be account/soul-bound, they could do that. It would dramatically increase the price of extant precursors, but it would also allow them to increase precursor drop rates without necessarily dramatically increasing the number of Legendary weapons out there — if you want The Juggernaut but not The Bifrost AND you knew that it was , then you wouldn’t bother going to the trouble of upgrading The Legend even if you got it, because you’d know that you have a decent chance of getting The Colossus and need to save your Gifts for that.

Anet is either satisfied with the current way Legendaries work or are working on a comprehensive solution to change them. I suspect the former is the case.

tolunart.2095:

Essentially, the individual is expressing the belief that it should be easy for HIMSELF – and only himself – to obtain. Because it’s frustrating to want something that you cannot have. But if everyone has it, then it’s not special any more.

I don’t have a Legendary weapon, and the more of them I see out there the less I want one (though in no way do I want one enough to seriously consider going for one).

Star Ace.5207:

In case you didn’t know, you can get the full 250 Silver Doubloons from the Mystic Forge-put in low level gems. Way cheaper, and I would bet even less time consuming than trying to board all the gold you need to buy that specific ingredient.

On the other hand, IMHO, your goals are not realistic unless you can play nonstop. One Legendary is time-consuming enough… please don’t do this to yourself, as I doubt ANet intended for players to dual-wield Incinerators after one week of the game going live. There are plenty of more realistic and still nice weapon skins to acquire on your timetable-it isn’t ANet “ruining your fun”, but more you wanting the hard to get stuff much too soon, and multiple times.

Do you really even need these many Legendaries so soon? And how is this the game’s problem? (BTW, I do think that precursors are too hard to get for most casuals, but what you seem to want is much like me saying “I wish I could earn 453,954 dollars in two months, life is so unfair!”)

Best wishes on your wedding plans.

Ooooh I didn’t know about the doubloons, cheers!

And I don’t want every Legendary/exotic weapon to fall in my lap at the same time. Juggernaut first, 6-9 months after that Bifrost, 6-9 months after that the first of the Infinite Lights and so on. Long term goals.

And thank you.

Vayne.8563:

As long as the bulk of the population wants things fast (and your fast isn’t everyone else’s fast, you’re pretty reasonable), MMORPGs will continue to suffer the same fate they’ve had these last five years. It’s the reliance on loot (and again I’m not saying YOUR reliance on loot, I’m talking generally) that has really sunk this genre for many of us.

Ironically, to remove the reliance on loot from the game, you need to make the loot easier to acquire, not harder. You also shouldn’t put into the game things that are labeled as “special”, “ultra-cool”, or “endgame”.

Imagine, how this game would have looked if there were no ascended eq, and no legendaries (current legendaries being reduced to the same status that other expensive exotic forge skins have, with comparable cost).

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

As long as the bulk of the population wants things fast (and your fast isn’t everyone else’s fast, you’re pretty reasonable), MMORPGs will continue to suffer the same fate they’ve had these last five years. It’s the reliance on loot (and again I’m not saying YOUR reliance on loot, I’m talking generally) that has really sunk this genre for many of us.

Ironically, to remove the reliance on loot from the game, you need to make the loot easier to acquire, not harder. You also shouldn’t put into the game things that are labeled as “special”, “ultra-cool”, or “endgame”.

Imagine, how this game would have looked if there were no ascended eq, and no legendaries (current legendaries being reduced to the same status that other expensive exotic forge skins have, with comparable cost).

Astral has an excellent point.

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

As long as the bulk of the population wants things fast (and your fast isn’t everyone else’s fast, you’re pretty reasonable), MMORPGs will continue to suffer the same fate they’ve had these last five years. It’s the reliance on loot (and again I’m not saying YOUR reliance on loot, I’m talking generally) that has really sunk this genre for many of us.

Ironically, to remove the reliance on loot from the game, you need to make the loot easier to acquire, not harder. You also shouldn’t put into the game things that are labeled as “special”, “ultra-cool”, or “endgame”.

Imagine, how this game would have looked if there were no ascended eq, and no legendaries (current legendaries being reduced to the same status that other expensive exotic forge skins have, with comparable cost).

I’d prefer having no ascended gear. Then legendaries would be simply cosmetic. That would be my preference.

Mirta.5029:

pricer.5091:

“There is a door to the left and one to the right”
a) Turnaround
b) Open the left door
c) Open the right door.

“You have chosen(Open the Right Door)”

“A goblin has stabbed you in the face”

“You are dead”

I prefer games that make you use logic instead of memorizing a line of random events and answers.

the uprising.6317:

You can’t have a themepark endgame without progression. Period. Remember GW 1 had progression from Factions onward. It can be progression that resets every time there’s an expansion or something, but there needs to be a treadmill.

Not everyone likes treadmills. Install one and a huge part of the population will suddenly drop. “You can’t have a themepark without a treadmill” – well this is one of the first ones. The same way that you couldn’t have platformers in 3D, the same way that nobody would ever like a sandbox space simulator (kerbal space program) and the same way that MMO shooter wouldn’t attract anyone’s attention (planetside 2). You don’t have to have something, just because of the genre. In fact the more variety we see the better.

Two things I agree with. You can’t have a themepark without progression. Every game developer has struggled with this TSW and Rift found solutions with end game continued non-gear related progression post max level.

Progression also includes carrots, you can’t have a themepark without carrots on a stick, something to have people return. The biggest of which is loot. Eliminate or break the loot and you have a big problem on your hands. Add to that DR and a completion system for achievements that doesn’t provide resources people need to both make money and progress in one of your most grindy designs (farming for legendaries) and there’s a huge problem.

And don’t get me started on how DR sticks to people’s accounts.

Blaine Tog.8304:

RoterFuchs.9216:

At the same time they totally dumped that principle and went back to good old “Grind all the way!”, with the only difference being, that the items are not needed for progression (but are still very much wanted by the community).

This difference makes all the difference.

I feel like I must be misunderstanding your point, because it seems like you’re saying that players are entitled to get whatever they want in the game without any time or effort on their part but that can’t be true. This is an MMO. As much as GW2 departs from the basic formula, it’s still very much a member of its stated genre. Pretty things are supposed to be hard to get in MMOs. That’s how they get their prestige. If everyone had Bifrosts, they wouldn’t be very cool at all. So I must be misunderstanding your point somehow.

I never said I wanted them to be easy to get. It should take time and if possible, should be a challenge as well. But acquiring them should also be fun. Like they wanted the game and combat to be fun starting at level 1. Sadly, grinding – or farming – is not fun. Hard to get shouldn’t be influenced so much by luck and monotonous farming. That’s not legendary. That’s not worthy of legendary.

I think there have been numerous suggestions on possible ways to acquire a legendary, for example a long quest series which is difficult and needs time to be completed. In addition you would need special “achievements” like dungeon master, or killing lupicus alone. The possibilities are endless.

As I said, ANet figured out grinding to get to the fun parts in a game sucks, but once it came to acquiring special items they stuck to old and boring patterns instead of making that fun, too. That’s what I don’ get.

RoterFuchs.9216:

Blaine Tog.8304:

RoterFuchs.9216:

At the same time they totally dumped that principle and went back to good old “Grind all the way!”, with the only difference being, that the items are not needed for progression (but are still very much wanted by the community).

This difference makes all the difference.

I feel like I must be misunderstanding your point, because it seems like you’re saying that players are entitled to get whatever they want in the game without any time or effort on their part but that can’t be true. This is an MMO. As much as GW2 departs from the basic formula, it’s still very much a member of its stated genre. Pretty things are supposed to be hard to get in MMOs. That’s how they get their prestige. If everyone had Bifrosts, they wouldn’t be very cool at all. So I must be misunderstanding your point somehow.

I never said I wanted them to be easy to get. It should take time and if possible, should be a challenge as well. But acquiring them should also be fun. Like they wanted the game and combat to be fun starting at level 1. Sadly, grinding – or farming – is not fun. Hard to get shouldn’t be influenced so much by luck and monotonous farming. That’s not legendary. That’s not worthy of legendary.

I think there have been numerous suggestions on possible ways to acquire a legendary, for example a long quest series which is difficult and needs time to be completed. In addition you would need special “achievements” like dungeon master, or killing lupicus alone. The possibilities are endless.

As I said, ANet figured out grinding to get to the fun parts in a game sucks, but once it came to acquiring special items they stuck to old and boring patterns instead of making that fun, too. That’s what I don’ get.

It takes time to make those types of quests, and they ran out of time. Eventually they’ll have to. It’s that simple. But I wouldn’t expect it soon. In the mean time, this game could do with a few epic quest lines.

RoterFuchs.9216:

As I said, ANet figured out grinding to get to the fun parts in a game sucks, but once it came to acquiring special items they stuck to old and boring patterns instead of making that fun, too. That’s what I don’ get.

Ahh, I see what you’re saying.

I feel like any time you gate content behind out-of-game skill requirements, you’re going to kitten off anyone who can’t achieve part of the list. For example, I have a friend who hates jumping puzzles with a fiery passion. Absolutely despises them, partially because she’s just not good at that kind of task but mostly because you have to complete minor “jumping puzzles” occasionally to get certain vistas or skill points, which means her lack of platformer skill (made substantially worse by her underpowered computer) is gating her from map completion in certain parts. It’s a solvable problem in her case since I can eventually just complete those sections for her, but it’s nevertheless a serious frustration for her.

Now, imagine that soloing Lupicus were a requirement for getting Bifrost. Know what would happen? Either there would be guides describing how anyone could solo Lupi (so doing it were merely a matter of following the guide, probably standing in some exploit spot, and spending a few hours whittling him down), or there would be a vast number of people who would be simply incapable of ever getting Bifrost just because they suck at that one specific task. You could make it more like the dailies where you get to pick and choose, but then the community would simply find the path of least resistance and everyone would do do those things. That’s hardly Legendary either.

My point is, there’s no perfect way to do Legendaries. It would be nice if there were a few other skill-based points involved in their creation, but then you’d just be locking out people without specific skills rather than people who aren’t willing to put in the time and effort (like me). Even giving skill-based “shortcut” options (like, getting a free Gift of Fortune for completing all the Jumping Puzzles or whatever) just cheapens the trouble required for people who can’t make use of them. If there must be a single basic requirement for getting your Legendary, I’d rather it be dedication than being good at jumping puzzles or being able to solo Lupi. Which isn’t to say there isn’t room for improvement, but I also don’t see anything wrong with putting cosmetic items in the game which are gated by something anyone can do if they’re willing to put in the effort at their own pace.

Blaine Tog.8304:

RoterFuchs.9216:

As I said, ANet figured out grinding to get to the fun parts in a game sucks, but once it came to acquiring special items they stuck to old and boring patterns instead of making that fun, too. That’s what I don’ get.

Ahh, I see what you’re saying.

I feel like any time you gate content behind out-of-game skill requirements, you’re going to kitten off anyone who can’t achieve part of the list. For example, I have a friend who hates jumping puzzles with a fiery passion. Absolutely despises them, partially because she’s just not good at that kind of task but mostly because you have to complete minor “jumping puzzles” occasionally to get certain vistas or skill points, which means her lack of platformer skill (made substantially worse by her underpowered computer) is gating her from map completion in certain parts. It’s a solvable problem in her case since I can eventually just complete those sections for her, but it’s nevertheless a serious frustration for her.

Now, imagine that soloing Lupicus were a requirement for getting Bifrost. Know what would happen? Either there would be guides describing how anyone could solo Lupi (so doing it were merely a matter of following the guide, probably standing in some exploit spot, and spending a few hours whittling him down), or there would be a vast number of people who would be simply incapable of ever getting Bifrost just because they suck at that one specific task. You could make it more like the dailies where you get to pick and choose, but then the community would simply find the path of least resistance and everyone would do do those things. That’s hardly Legendary either.

My point is, there’s no perfect way to do Legendaries. It would be nice if there were a few other skill-based points involved in their creation, but then you’d just be locking out people without specific skills rather than people who aren’t willing to put in the time and effort (like me). Even giving skill-based “shortcut” options (like, getting a free Gift of Fortune for completing all the Jumping Puzzles or whatever) just cheapens the trouble required for people who can’t make use of them. If there must be a single basic requirement for getting your Legendary, I’d rather it be dedication than being good at jumping puzzles or being able to solo Lupi. Which isn’t to say there isn’t room for improvement, but I also don’t see anything wrong with putting cosmetic items in the game which are gated by something anyone can do if they’re willing to put in the effort at their own pace.

I do get your point, problem is as much as your friend hates JPs with that fiery passion, so do I with farming. It’s not about dedication to be honest. I just can’t farm. I can’t. I have tried. And I always end up stopping after 5 minutes. And I also cannot force myself to do so, because if I would, I would end up hating the game and never playing it again. So right now I am the one who is kittened off.
But as you have pointed out gating it behind skill requirement isn’t the best solution as well. The best solution would be to offer alternative ways to acquire the legendary. One via skill. One via farming. Perhaps you can combine both, whatever.

RoterFuchs.9216:

Blaine Tog.8304:

RoterFuchs.9216:

As I said, ANet figured out grinding to get to the fun parts in a game sucks, but once it came to acquiring special items they stuck to old and boring patterns instead of making that fun, too. That’s what I don’ get.

Ahh, I see what you’re saying.

I feel like any time you gate content behind out-of-game skill requirements, you’re going to kitten off anyone who can’t achieve part of the list. For example, I have a friend who hates jumping puzzles with a fiery passion. Absolutely despises them, partially because she’s just not good at that kind of task but mostly because you have to complete minor “jumping puzzles” occasionally to get certain vistas or skill points, which means her lack of platformer skill (made substantially worse by her underpowered computer) is gating her from map completion in certain parts. It’s a solvable problem in her case since I can eventually just complete those sections for her, but it’s nevertheless a serious frustration for her.

Now, imagine that soloing Lupicus were a requirement for getting Bifrost. Know what would happen? Either there would be guides describing how anyone could solo Lupi (so doing it were merely a matter of following the guide, probably standing in some exploit spot, and spending a few hours whittling him down), or there would be a vast number of people who would be simply incapable of ever getting Bifrost just because they suck at that one specific task. You could make it more like the dailies where you get to pick and choose, but then the community would simply find the path of least resistance and everyone would do do those things. That’s hardly Legendary either.

My point is, there’s no perfect way to do Legendaries. It would be nice if there were a few other skill-based points involved in their creation, but then you’d just be locking out people without specific skills rather than people who aren’t willing to put in the time and effort (like me). Even giving skill-based “shortcut” options (like, getting a free Gift of Fortune for completing all the Jumping Puzzles or whatever) just cheapens the trouble required for people who can’t make use of them. If there must be a single basic requirement for getting your Legendary, I’d rather it be dedication than being good at jumping puzzles or being able to solo Lupi. Which isn’t to say there isn’t room for improvement, but I also don’t see anything wrong with putting cosmetic items in the game which are gated by something anyone can do if they’re willing to put in the effort at their own pace.

I do get your point, problem is as much as your friend hates JPs with that fiery passion, so do I with farming. It’s not about dedication to be honest. I just can’t farm. I can’t. I have tried. And I always end up stopping after 5 minutes. And I also cannot force myself to do so, because if I would, I would end up hating the game and never playing it again. So right now I am the one who is kittened off.
But as you have pointed out gating it behind skill requirement isn’t the best solution as well. The best solution would be to offer alternative ways to acquire the legendary. One via skill. One via farming. Perhaps you can combine both, whatever.

I’m sort of in your boat. I hate farming. But I like running around with guildies. Whatever they’re doing,. it doesn’t really much matter. We can be doing a zone completion, helping them with a jumping puzzle or vista, doing meta events…but you see I’m not really farming. That is to say, the activity I’m doing is hanging out with friends.

Someone needs a hand, I’m often the first person to volunteer. Even if it’s just someone who happens to need some mats from Orr. Now they could very well be farming, but I’m chatting, and enjoying myself. A lot of time, I’m having so much fun with friends and guildies that it doesn’t really matter so much what we’re doing.

I liken this a lot to going out to dinner with friends. The food isn’t always great, but it doesn’t matter, because we’re having a good time together. It’s why I’ve run most of the dungeons I’ve run, why I’ve gotten into WvW and even why I tried SPvP.

Sitting around solo and just trying to farm…I’d be just like you.

RoterFuchs.9216:

I do get your point, problem is as much as your friend hates JPs with that fiery passion, so do I with farming. It’s not about dedication to be honest. I just can’t farm. I can’t. I have tried. And I always end up stopping after 5 minutes. And I also cannot force myself to do so, because if I would, I would end up hating the game and never playing it again. So right now I am the one who is kittened off.

You’re drawing a false equivalency between “being literally incapable of completing a task” and “finding a task unpleasant,” but I do see what you mean. I’m not going for a Legendary for precisely that reason.

EDIT: Also, as Vayne points out, there’s farming and then there’s farming. I don’t usually like sitting around mindlessly killing stuff, but I don’t mind running dungeons a bunch of times because there are multiple paths and each dungeon path plays quite differently with different characters. I also enjoy flipping stuff on the trading post sometimes, and sometimes I’ll even just pick away at map completion for fun, all of which earns me a decent income without being boring or repetitive. One of the things I love about GW2 is how rewarding just playing the game is. Things could always be better, but I don’t think it’s helpful to get melodramatic when they’re already pretty good.

RoterFuchs.9216:

But as you have pointed out gating it behind skill requirement isn’t the best solution as well. The best solution would be to offer alternative ways to acquire the legendary. One via skill. One via farming. Perhaps you can combine both, whatever.

The problem is, this would only work if the options were perfectly balanced. Because otherwise, someone’s going to feel like the system is rigged against them. If farming is easier than the skill-based paths but the person hates farming, then they’re going to feel like Anet is taunting them with an option they can take but shouldn’t because it’s harder. Conversely, if skill is easier than farming, then people who can’t complete the skill challenge are going to feel like they’re being punished for having a different skill set.

I guess what confuses me overall is the general tone of the OP. It would be great if every piece of cosmetic progression players could possibly want had multiple paths, but I don’t understand the implication that Legendary weapons are some kind of “right” to which players are entitled. Putting aside whether such a system would be feasible (and whether it would be worth Anet’s time to implement such a system rather than fixing profession balance or de-bugging dungeons), Legendary weapons are completely frivolous to the rest of the game.

It’s not like Anet is requiring you to spend 9 months or more to farm for your Rare armor, is my point.

Vayne.8563:

I’m sort of in your boat. I hate farming. But I like running around with guildies. Whatever they’re doing,. it doesn’t really much matter. We can be doing a zone completion, helping them with a jumping puzzle or vista, doing meta events…but you see I’m not really farming. That is to say, the activity I’m doing is hanging out with friends.

Someone needs a hand, I’m often the first person to volunteer. Even if it’s just someone who happens to need some mats from Orr. Now they could very well be farming, but I’m chatting, and enjoying myself. A lot of time, I’m having so much fun with friends and guildies that it doesn’t really matter so much what we’re doing.

I liken this a lot to going out to dinner with friends. The food isn’t always great, but it doesn’t matter, because we’re having a good time together. It’s why I’ve run most of the dungeons I’ve run, why I’ve gotten into WvW and even why I tried SPvP.

Sitting around solo and just trying to farm…I’d be just like you.

You know this last comment of yours can be misinterpreted as being pretty insulting. Apart from that you don’t even begin to having an idea how I am playing the game, it’s a nice little story you have there. And I think the entire forum knows how you like to play. And that’s fine. It’s your way of playing, and with all that help you provide a good one at that.

But other people have different playstyles. And I know you know that. But when we feel there is something wrong, or something could be better, we say so in the forums. And that’s plain and simple criticism. And not every criticism needs to be answered or argued with. There is no need for you to come into every topic and answer each and every bit of criticism you find. Especially not when all you do is keep repeating yourself. We get it. But please, get us. We criticize so ANet gets an idea of where our priorities are, what we would like to get fixed rather sooner than later.

It’s like the precurser drop issue. ANet has recognized that RNG isn’t the best solution and is working on an alternative way for players to obtain precursers. You don’t barge into a topic about alternative ways to obtaining a precurser and telling them just to play the game because it will eventually drop, do you? It’s pointless.

Blaine Tog.8304:

You’re drawing a false equivalency between “being literally incapable of completing a task” and “finding a task unpleasant,” but I do see what you mean. I’m not going for a Legendary for precisely that reason.

Hardware issues aside, there is no literal incapability concerning skill. Everyone can improve if they just want to. It’s how people progress and become better. By trying. If you don’t try, you cannot become better. Simple as that. But some people don’t want to, because they don’t like a certain aspect of the game. I get that. It’s the same with me and farming.

Blaine Tog.8304:

I guess what confuses me overall is the general tone of the OP. It would be great if every piece of cosmetic progression players could possibly want had multiple paths, but I don’t understand the implication that Legendary weapons are some kind of “right” to which players are entitled. Putting aside whether such a system would be feasible (and whether it would be worth Anet’s time to implement such a system rather than fixing profession balance or de-bugging dungeons), Legendary weapons are completely frivolous to the rest of the game.

It’s not like Anet is requiring you to spend 9 months or more to farm for your Rare armor, is my point.

That I don’t get it. On one hand you say people are not entitled to getting a legendary, that it’s something you have to work for, or perhaps might never even get.
On the other hand you argue if it’s gated behind skill barriers, people are kittened off. But that shouldn’t matter because nobody is entitled to it, right?

RoterFuchs.9216:

Vayne.8563:

I’m sort of in your boat. I hate farming. But I like running around with guildies. Whatever they’re doing,. it doesn’t really much matter. We can be doing a zone completion, helping them with a jumping puzzle or vista, doing meta events…but you see I’m not really farming. That is to say, the activity I’m doing is hanging out with friends.

Someone needs a hand, I’m often the first person to volunteer. Even if it’s just someone who happens to need some mats from Orr. Now they could very well be farming, but I’m chatting, and enjoying myself. A lot of time, I’m having so much fun with friends and guildies that it doesn’t really matter so much what we’re doing.

I liken this a lot to going out to dinner with friends. The food isn’t always great, but it doesn’t matter, because we’re having a good time together. It’s why I’ve run most of the dungeons I’ve run, why I’ve gotten into WvW and even why I tried SPvP.

Sitting around solo and just trying to farm…I’d be just like you.

You know this last comment of yours can be misinterpreted as being pretty insulting. Apart from that you don’t even begin to having an idea how I am playing the game, it’s a nice little story you have there. And I think the entire forum knows how you like to play. And that’s fine. It’s your way of playing, and with all that help you provide a good one at that.

But other people have different playstyles. And I know you know that. But when we feel there is something wrong, or something could be better, we say so in the forums. And that’s plain and simple criticism. And not every criticism needs to be answered or argued with. There is no need for you to come into every topic and answer each and every bit of criticism you find. Especially not when all you do is keep repeating yourself. We get it. But please, get us. We criticize so ANet gets an idea of where our priorities are, what we would like to get fixed rather sooner than later.

It’s like the precurser drop issue. ANet has recognized that RNG isn’t the best solution and is working on an alternative way for players to obtain precursers. You don’t barge into a topic about alternative ways to obtaining a precurser and telling them just to play the game because it will eventually drop, do you? It’s pointless.

Blaine Tog.8304:

You’re drawing a false equivalency between “being literally incapable of completing a task” and “finding a task unpleasant,” but I do see what you mean. I’m not going for a Legendary for precisely that reason.

Hardware issues aside, there is no literal incapability concerning skill. Everyone can improve if they just want to. It’s how people progress and become better. By trying. If you don’t try, you cannot become better. Simple as that. But some people don’t want to, because they don’t like a certain aspect of the game. I get that. It’s the same with me and farming.

Blaine Tog.8304:

I guess what confuses me overall is the general tone of the OP. It would be great if every piece of cosmetic progression players could possibly want had multiple paths, but I don’t understand the implication that Legendary weapons are some kind of “right” to which players are entitled. Putting aside whether such a system would be feasible (and whether it would be worth Anet’s time to implement such a system rather than fixing profession balance or de-bugging dungeons), Legendary weapons are completely frivolous to the rest of the game.

It’s not like Anet is requiring you to spend 9 months or more to farm for your Rare armor, is my point.

That I don’t get it. On one hand you say people are not entitled to getting a legendary, that it’s something you have to work for, or perhaps might never even get.
On the other hand you argue if it’s gated behind skill barriers, people are kittened off. But that shouldn’t matter because nobody is entitled to it, right?

Zero intent on offense. I was agreeing with you. Farming is boring to me. Anything else you got out of that is in your own head.

RoterFuchs.9216:

Hardware issues aside, there is no literal incapability concerning skill. Everyone can improve if they just want to.

A nice thought but untrue for some people and some skills. Despite what we tell our four year olds, not everyone has the capacity to become an astronaut or rock star, and not everyone has the specific type of hand-eye coordination and spacial reasoning needed to complete difficult jumping puzzles.

RoterFuchs.9216:

That I don’t get it. On one hand you say people are not entitled to getting a legendary, that it’s something you have to work for, or perhaps might never even get.
On the other hand you argue if it’s gated behind skill barriers, people are kittened off. But that shouldn’t matter because nobody is entitled to it, right?

1. Again, you’re conflating “don’t want to do this” with “literally can’t do this.” I get that you strongly dislike having to accrue wealth in this game but it’s something anyone can do as long as they play well enough to outearn waypoint costs and armor repair fees. I get that you’re frustrated at having to put together X amount of gold and materials to make your Legendary, but what about Johnny Cantdodge who spends 90% of fights against Lupi on the ground, or Jane Crabless who never ever wins the Southsun Craggrab? At the very least, forcing them to fail repeatedly against those challenges until they eventually luck their way through (though there’s no guarantee that they’ll ever succeed) is no better than forcing everyone to get a bunch of gold together through whatever means they wish (a slow but steady progression).

2. I’m saying changing the system wouldn’t stop that sort of entitled attitude from emerging. It would just express itself differently. Spending time changing the Legendary system is time that Anet could spend on some other project, but if they’re changing it to assuage the people who feel entitled to an easy way out and the system is anything less than perfect, they’ll have wasted all their time because they’ll just have shifted the unrest from one group of players to another without necessarily having reduced the number of angry players.

3. Furthermore, they’ll have devalued Legendary weapons in general by making them easier to get, which I doubt is on their agenda.

Again, I’m not saying the Legendary acquisition system is perfect and I’m not saying Anet shouldn’t try to improve it in some way. I’m saying it’s a purely optional goal created to give players a crazy goal to accomplish, and in that sense I think it’s working pretty well.

Greetings.
There are 2 notions about MMORPG’s that blow my mind:

1-Goals and objectives must require excessive amounts of time/grinding. Yeah, because there cannot be a middle ground, no no, no sir. It’s either super-fast or super-slow, nothing in between.
2-Progression must be vertical, with gear treadmills locking people out of content.

GW2 is supposed to have horizontal progression, having new things to do that doesn’t lock people with stat inflation nonsense.
But 9 months after release we still have the same armor sets, same “normal” dungeons ( as fractals have its own system ). And the new weapon sets are locked behind kitten lottery boxes or require mind-numbing grinding like fractal ones.
Content added is extremely shallow, with “living stories” that you can complete in a day or two. No challenges, no interesting side stories, no new interesting titles or achievements, nada, except for Adventure Box, which is gone.

I already know that content cannot be created as fast as people complete it, but i’m sure they can slowly add objectives and motivations for all kinds of players that doesn’t require an asinine amount of time to do. It seems to me they aren’t even trying, and just want to milk casual players with the gem shop.
MMORPG’s need some form of retention, motivations to continue playing and enjoying the game and its world either solo or with others, i’m sure it can be done without resorting to the trap of gear treadmills or vertical stat inflation. GW1 survived lots of years without that, surely this game can too, it has incredible potential that i feel is being wasted.
I love this game, but i’m quickly becoming bored without new substantial things to do. You can only repeat so many times something “for fun” before getting bored of it or looking at some sort of reward for time spent.

Good example of something moderate: dungeon token system, SAB.
Bad example: the terrible legendary grinding.

Blaine Tog.8304:

I guess what confuses me overall is the general tone of the OP. It would be great if every piece of cosmetic progression players could possibly want had multiple paths, but I don’t understand the implication that Legendary weapons are some kind of “right” to which players are entitled. Putting aside whether such a system would be feasible (and whether it would be worth Anet’s time to implement such a system rather than fixing profession balance or de-bugging dungeons), Legendary weapons are completely frivolous to the rest of the game.

It’s not like Anet is requiring you to spend 9 months or more to farm for your Rare armor, is my point.

This is the heart of the problem – human nature. Players are not excited by getting blues and greens because they are not rare. They are not valuable because they are so common – so much so that many of them sell for less vendor price after TP fees. So they are “worth” at most a few silver.

Rares aren’t even valued by players because they get them automatically through events. Their value comes not through rarity (they aren’t really rare when you can get a dozen of them a day) but through their use as raw materials (MF fodder and ecto salvage). So they don’t get excited by this, either.

Exotics are rare to some extent (they don’t drop as often) but it’s only the hard-to-obtain exotics that people really want. You can get most exotics off the TP for a few gold or buy them from vendors for karma, so it’s not a great accomplishment to get them.

Then there are the items that ARE rare and desired. Exotics that you create in the MF include Legendary weapons and a few named exotics. Weapon skins you can only find through the rng lottery are also sought after. A few items that are no longer available because they were limited time drops.

Because they are rare, people want them. Because people want them, they demand that they be given them. If they are given them in large numbers, they become no longer rare. Because they will be no longer rare, they won’t want them.

This is the paradox – they want them because they are rare, but if they become not-rare then they won’t want them any more.

Anet knows this, even if the people who want them don’t realize it. The items will, and should, remain rare.

tolunart.2095:

Anet knows this, even if the people who want them don’t realize it. The items will, and should, remain rare.

or the opposite – they should all become common, so people will stop being fixated on them.

Astralporing.1957:

tolunart.2095:

Anet knows this, even if the people who want them don’t realize it. The items will, and should, remain rare.

or the opposite – they should all become common, so people will stop being fixated on them.

Then they would no longer be a long-term goal for players to achieve, which is currently their purpose. They would also lose their prestige, thus robbing them of much of their allure in the first place.

Blaine Tog.8304:

If everyone had Bifrosts, they wouldn’t be very cool at all.

Wrong.

There are some players who need the approval of others to be happy. This need for external validation is usually seen in teenagers (who often feel they are only going to feel good about themselves if others see them in a nice light), but most people grow away from that.

Then, there are those who become happy based on their own opinions, which is something more commonly seen in an adult. Someone like this would enjoy the Bifrost because it has a nice skin; if all players in the game had a Bifrost, each one would still have the exact same skin as it does today, so they would be as “cool” as they are right now.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Pretty things are supposed to be hard to get in MMOs. That’s how they get their prestige.

Two flaws in those arguments:

1. Things are not hard to get. There isn’t anything that is truly a rewards for skill. Legendaries, for example, are merely a reward for time spent (or real money spent buying gold). This is part of the design seen in pay to play MMOs: the developers couldn’t care less if players are skilled (so there is no point in rewarding skill), rather they want people to keep playing and paying monthly fees (so the idea is to reward time spent).

2. Due to the above – what prestige?

People have fooled themselves into believing that all MMOs need grind, and that said grind is a good thing. Unfortunatelly, so many players believe in it that all MMO developers are told to turn their games into nothing but grind simulators.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Then they would no longer be a long-term goal for players to achieve, which is currently their purpose. They would also lose their prestige, thus robbing them of much of their allure in the first place.

When you can get them by simple grinding, luck or just by buying them then wheres the prestige?

Erasculio.2914:

Blaine Tog.8304:

If everyone had Bifrosts, they wouldn’t be very cool at all.

Wrong.

There are some players who need the approval of others to be happy. This need for external validation is usually seen in teenagers (who often feel they are only going to feel good about themselves if others see them in a nice light), but most people grow away from that.

Then, there are those who become happy based on their own opinions, which is something more commonly seen in an adult. Someone like this would enjoy the Bifrost because it has a nice skin; if all players in the game had a Bifrost, each one would still have the exact same skin as it does today, so they would be as “cool” as they are right now.

Your ageist attempts to slander me aside, purchasing things just because they’re expensive is very much something adults do too. It’s certainly a thing MMO players do. You can deny it all you like but it won’t make the Blue partyhat any less absurdly expensive for the sake of being expensive.

Also, let’s go back to this dev blog on Legendaries.

A notable quote from the video:

“You can have your footprints change, so everyone can see them, they can change the projectiles your character has, really allowing you to show off your accomplishments and symbolize all the things you’ve been doing.”

Point is, Legendaries are designed to be vessels of conspicuous consumption.

Erasculio.2914:

Two flaws in those arguments:

1. Things are not hard to get. There isn’t anything that is truly a rewards for skill. Legendaries, for example, are merely a reward for time spent (or real money spent buying gold). This is part of the design seen in pay to play MMOs: the developers couldn’t care less if players are skilled (so there is no point in rewarding skill), rather they want people to keep playing and paying monthly fees (so the idea is to reward time spent).

You can strawman me all you want but my point stands: getting a Legendary weapon is a massive pain in the butt, and that’s by design.

From the blog post: “Let me explain some of the process. It all starts with a base weapon—these are the extremely rare exotic weapons. Once you’ve obtained your base weapon, you’ll need to present gifts to Zommoros, a powerful djinn who lives in Lion’s Arch. These gifts come from all over Tyria, and you’ll need different ones depending on what Legendary Weapon you’re trying to craft, so be ready to do some exploring.”

Erasculio.2914:

2. Due to the above – what prestige?

The prestige of having a kitten weapon that few people have because of the insane amount of trouble you have to go through to get one. If you don’t think Legendary Weapons currently have quite a bit of prestige, you are very, very wrong.

Erasculio.2914:

People have fooled themselves into believing that all MMOs need grind, and that said grind is a good thing. Unfortunatelly, so many players believe in it that all MMO developers are told to turn their games into nothing but grind simulators.

On the contrary, GW2 is awesome because it requires so very little grind. But some people still like having big, long-term goals to accomplish, which is where Legendary Weapons come in. If the struggle to get Bifrost sounds like too much for you, then you’re not the target audience. If you buy into the rhetoric that “Legendary Weapons are the end result of an epic adventure in Guild Wars 2… [where] you’ll travel all over, collecting items and amassing materials to build your Legendary Weapon,” then you’re probably going to enjoy working towards it. The item won’t just be some pretty pixels, it’ll be the culmination of an incredible amount of dedication that took you from one end of the game to the other rather than a sad reminder of all the time you spend killing sharks off the coast of Southsun Cove.

The central issue here seems to be that there’s a disconnect between what you want out of Legendaries and and what Legendaries were intended to do. Legendaries aren’t just pretty pixels. They’re the ultimate carrot on a stick for those who want a carrot to chase.

Erasculio.2914:

There are some players who need the approval of others to be happy. This need for external validation is usually seen in teenagers (who often feel they are only going to feel good about themselves if others see them in a nice light), but most people grow away from that.

Then, there are those who become happy based on their own opinions, which is something more commonly seen in an adult. Someone like this would enjoy the Bifrost because it has a nice skin; if all players in the game had a Bifrost, each one would still have the exact same skin as it does today, so they would be as “cool” as they are right now.

Those players certainly exist – I’m one of them. But they are also the least likely to complain about the time it takes to obtain these things. The insecure ones are the ones who want everything NOW, and are the least likely to be willing to do what is necessary to get them. This discussion is not about players like me.

Kyven.7514:

Dante.1508:

Honestly if anyone by now has played a few hundred hours in this game can see how grindy GW2 has become, also how much enjoyment has been sucked away due to nerfs and loot limitations, its bad, really bad..

Vayne says have goals, i had goals, i finished it i made 8 professions at 80 fully geared, i’ve played over 3000 hours here too, i never wanted a legendary they are stupid skins aimed at the lowest common denominators to grind on..
My annoyance is the rest of the game is hindered by them, cannot craft anything nice because it needs the same crap legendaries need, so they are just as hard to make, to make anything is painful with the Crap GW2 economy and the Crap loot tables…

Hopping in here. Permit me a little story.

I’m one of those “kids” Vayne tends to like to lambast (I’m a little more than half his age) for wanting stuff now. I play this game with my boyfriend as a way for us to play together while I earn money and prepare to move to the UK to be with him. That is a long term goal to have and one that I WANT to take several years to accomplish as I pay down student loan debt and save for the move and our eventual wedding. My boyfriend is worth waiting for.

The Juggernaut? Not so much. I, too, want to have my Legendary for my warrior in a reasonable (6-9 months) amount of time. I hate paying money for mats and things unless I absolutely have to. Since I don’t want to spend money, the other option is to farm those mats. I, too, have noticed that the drop rate for mats and things has been nerfed into the ground. So I get to stretch my farming another 3-6 months and maybe I’ll get my Juggernaut in a year from now. But I don’t want it a year from now, I want it by September at the latest. So what am I going to do? Will I have to buck up and buy the mats off the TP even though I really don’t want to? Or do I have to scrimp the little IRL money I have, buy gems, convert to gold and just buy Juggernaut outright?

And Juggernaut isn’t even the least of my goals. I want Bifrost and I want double Infinite Light for my guardian and mesmer respectively, as well as full exotics/runes/trinkets/back pieces/stuff for all of my alts. Those are things that I will have to spend a fair bit of time praying that I get the mats for them. But if I can’t farm them easily, I’ll have to spend the gold for them and I don’t want to, except for the runes, the armor and some of the weapons. Period. Plain and simple.

Is it so wrong of me to want to have Juggernaut to start with by September, getting all the mats myself, spending when absolutely necessary and the other weapons over time? No, it isn’t. But when the avenues that I take to get those weapons are being shut down on a regular basis, can’t you see why I’m a little angry?

Edit: Also, some of the mats you CAN’T farm past a certain level. The silver doubloons for Juggernaut are only found on level 20-30 chars. So those I’ll need to buy. The lodestones and such I want to farm…but can’t as my spots are nerfed. So what can I do?

None of that is wrong, your goals are your goals.

My personal opinion is this..

If they nerf the game and make it unenjoyable for me to play, i do not play, i leave and play other games that are enjoyable, my choice.
Why after all the nerfs and enjoyment sucked from this game would i want to fight through an ugly legendary (to me they look terrible) and pay money to a game company that quite frankly doesn’t give a toss about me, what i think or what i find fun..

Blaine Tog.8304:

Your ageist attempts to slander me aside, purchasing things just because they’re expensive is very much something adults do too. It’s certainly a thing MMO players do.

Just because they are old doesn’t mean they are adults. Likewise, just because someone looks like a person doesn’t mean it’s a human being; after all…

Blaine Tog.8304:

They’re the ultimate carrot on a stick for those who want a carrot to chase.

…Human beings use carrots to trick donkeys into doing what they want to be done, while being smarter than that themselves.

Does Legendary weapons have some prestige? A donkey may think a Legendary means it’s the king of donkeys, but that’s still very inferior to being a human being.

Now, MMOs do not cater to humans, rather to donkeys who are kept stuck eternally seeking one more carrot and thus eternally paying a monthly fee. Guild Wars 2 was in theory going to be a MMORPG for human beings, but it still cannot completely escape some primitive elements in its design. The donkeys may only want more carrots, sure, but people are not so easy to please…

Erasculio.2914:

Likewise, just because someone looks like a person doesn’t mean it’s a human being; after all…

Yeahno, I’m done talking with you.

I get the feeling erasculio was talking about the people most of us would find scum: murderers, rapists, etc. But it did come off as a bit “….”