On increasing the level cap
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Someone brought up a really good point earlier in the thread.
Yes- Legendaries will always be BiS, and maybe ascended will be the only tier they add… but what level legendaries and ascended gear? =D
Say I grind out my level 80 legendary sword, and then the xpac releases and now max level is 90. Sure, a legendary weapon will be the best… but it might be the new level 90 legendary they just introduced, which were added alongside the new level 90 ascended items they just introduced. =D
“Legendaries will always be best in the game… kittenOLOL”
hehe
Sorry just had to pop in one last time this is a new game new ideas for this game there is no always, there is no previous experience to say this. After all this is not GW1 so how this company performaned there was and is null and void. And well if you go by other MMOs the one that has been around the longest WOW never updated their legendaries so they were not always best in slot. As I said in previous posts I m not on the dev team this is not my game to do with as I please what they decide they will do. And as poster said they stated it would match the tiers at the current character levels and not the projected character level with an expansion, so she has a valid point.
I have 3 sets of exotic gear. They weren’t particularly hard to get. Actually pretty easy. I trust that ArenaNet will continue make marshmallow softcore for at least some of the gear options. And then we can transmute our favorite lvl 80 skins onto the new gear, no big deal.
They can make it only 1 level as long as it takes an average MMO players a couple of months to reach it. Level 80 went way to fast, too fast to fully enjoy some of the midlevel areas. Right now you can run through levels and reach level 80 in less than a month and then you seen 30% of the map. You should be able to reach max level if you reach 80%+ of the map.
People don’t know what they want. They complain about content taking a lot of effort and in the same sentence I seen them complain about being bored because they have nothing to do.
I don’t see the point to raising the level cap in first place. I would much rather see more character building elements introduced that shapes who your character is in game and how they interact with the world.
They had that dignity, charm, ferocity stuff, but did seemingly absolutely nothing with it. I would like to see them build on stuff like this instead (and actually make it matter a bit; maybe not in a way that limits what you can do, but how your character can successfully approach different situations in game in events and stuff).
They should also build on the three Orders too. There should be special missions you can do depending on which order you chose (there should be a chance to change orders at least once at some point if they were to build on this). Each order would represent a different play style: Vigil would be centered around larger groups and direct conflicts (larger battles requiring anywhere between 5-10 players); Priory would be for explorers taking them around to all the nooks and crannies of the world (exploring certain areas and finding relics and stuff, and a few tests and stuff here and there); finally, the Whisperers would be for players looking for small group and solo missions (essentially solo and duo stuff) centered around information collecting, infiltration, etc.
This kind of stuff I think would be more meaningful in the long term than some arbitrary stat increase that gets countered by enemies having their stats increase. You know actually play a character and etch out who they are and what part they play in the world?
Sollith you need to get a team together and produce an indie game. It may be a niche but you are dead on for making an immersive virtual RPG experience.
Do not be fooled by what we percieve. Where there is perception there is deception.
I really hope that when the time comes they don’t raise the level cap. If they do, I wont be rage quitting or any such nonsense because part of me expected it… but raising the level cap just seems an unnecessary and lazy way to add “content” in a game where the focus isn’t world PvP (I’m thinking WoW where the focus is on PvP given that you can be running around in open world and someone can gank you. Obviously we have WvW but I would argue that it isn’t the focus of GW2). Raising the level cap does nothing but raise the power plateau… when you get all the levels and level appropriate gear you are just as unkillable as you were when the level cap was lower.
I would much rather see them focus their creative efforts on content that is engaging and has depth, rather than trying to balance arbitrary power increases.
If you did what they did, you would have what they have.
You have what you have because you do what you do.
You have what you have because you do what you do.
The should kill 2 birds with 1 stone and just split off a few servers to freeze vertical progression on. They could WvW with eachother and the arguments against ascended gear/level caps/etc would go away forever.
I don’t see the point to raising the level cap in first place. I would much rather see more character building elements introduced that shapes who your character is in game and how they interact with the world.
They had that dignity, charm, ferocity stuff, but did seemingly absolutely nothing with it. I would like to see them build on stuff like this instead (and actually make it matter a bit; maybe not in a way that limits what you can do, but how your character can successfully approach different situations in game in events and stuff).
They should also build on the three Orders too. There should be special missions you can do depending on which order you chose (there should be a chance to change orders at least once at some point if they were to build on this). Each order would represent a different play style: Vigil would be centered around larger groups and direct conflicts (larger battles requiring anywhere between 5-10 players); Priory would be for explorers taking them around to all the nooks and crannies of the world (exploring certain areas and finding relics and stuff, and a few tests and stuff here and there); finally, the Whisperers would be for players looking for small group and solo missions (essentially solo and duo stuff) centered around information collecting, infiltration, etc.
This kind of stuff I think would be more meaningful in the long term than some arbitrary stat increase that gets countered by enemies having their stats increase. You know actually play a character and etch out who they are and what part they play in the world?
“Urgh… But… huff… that sounds like work… bah.
If I just copy this database and add +50 to each field, aren’t we good?”
Unfortunately, one market is much easier to satisfy.
“Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games.”
-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet
-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet
The most valuable, and most demanded items on the TP are all geared towards level 80. If lvl 90 gear came out tomorrow all this would quickly become worthless. Imagine the state of the economy then. (not to mention rendering old content even more obsolete.) No. This is just a lazy, plain kittened up way of adding illusory “progression” which only creates a host of new problems.
You are not one of their “most dedicated players”. Don’t worry, neither am I apparently.
-NaughtyProwler.8653
-NaughtyProwler.8653
Only reason I do not want an increase in Level is because I don’t want more content to be invalidated. I would rather have more options for things to do at Level 80, then have only 3 level 100 areas (or whatever). Also increasing the cap means when leveling there is a bunch of content that I can bypass while playing up to 100. Just make everything level 80 and make areas harder, add more story (real story, not a branching story that ends up being a stick), and provide lots of DE’s that change the actual map.
Higher Level cap and stronger items for an expansion are a must
1st person worldwide to reach 35,000 achievement points.
Even though for GW2 I am whole-heartedly against increasing the level cap, I understand that they have alluded to the fact that they might in the future.
I think as far as expansions go:
There should be small-mini expansions where the cap doesnt increase but there is a boat load of content. Lets face it, the lost shores event was riddled up to be compared to an expansion. One small island, a few DEs, a one time event, new dungeon, and gear that only a small portion of the playerbase will get before the next step in the treadmill. Small mini expansions…no increase in cap. Then release full expansions, where the cap does increase. I think our current gear should scale with us as we level.
Gear treadmill at its finest there. I absolutely hated transition periods between expansions in WoW where I have my awsome armor from many hours of raiding. Then in a few hours of the new xpac, its replaced by greens and crummy gear. Please do do this to us. Increase the cap if you want, but also give us some way to bump up our rare/exotic/ascended gear up to the new cap as well. And dont make it an insane grind to do so…like 50 globs of ecto, 250 tier 7 fine items, etc. Thats stupid. A small price of some sort. We worked hard for these items especially the people that obtain full ascended. Id go insane if my ascended, or even exotics, were suddenly replaced by crappy greens or blues.
Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.
I do not want more levels. I was max level 20 for six years in GW1 and look how long I played that game. Stuff like that doesn’t matter to me. As someone above me said, give us more stuff to do/improve upon existing content (PvP for me please!)
Otherwise once people reach the new max level, what then?
I do not want more levels. I was max level 20 for six years in GW1 and look how long I played that game. Stuff like that doesn’t matter to me. As someone above me said, give us more stuff to do/improve upon existing content (PvP for me please!)
Otherwise once people reach the new max level, what then?
Gotta say, I kind of agree with you, kind of don’t. Again, please remember- GW1 was a very, VERY differnet kind of game. It was mostly single-player with multiplayer fucntions and interaction. It could get away with the Level 20 cap, and it’s part of the reason for GW2, they could never have gotten away with a level 20 cap.
That being said though, I do think they should improve on existing content. I think it should be a mix- improve on what’s already here, while also adding new things. As such, I’m not too opposed to a rising level cap, since I don’t agree if you don’t play for a year you should be at the same pace with everyone else that has been dedicated and kept playing. HOWEVER, it should not be tedious to try to catch up- keep gear relatively easy to get, etc etc. Maybe even do something with Legendary and maybe even certain Exotics to ‘upgrade’ them? So you can obtain it at level 80, but once you reach Level 90 you can help upgrade them (as well as Legendaries) so they don’t fall behind and are always on top?
Personally, even if armor levels increase (not too hard to get around unless Legendary Armor is added), I can’t help but feel Weapons are more tricky to handle, especially with Legendaries, unless new higher-level percusors are added.
However, I do feel with higher levels, higher stats and the like, new challenges can be added. I’m not saying they can’t make Level 80 challenging, but it could make for more traits and the like.
Hell, personally, what I really wanna see is new weapons, professions (or even old ones. I miss my scythes 3: ), new weapon skills for the weapons you alread have (so lets stay instaed of those five you’re always stuck with, maybe for each weapon they add another set of skills and you can change them around? Example- Thief with a shortbow. You’d have ten skills to chose from, but to make it fair you can’t replace your third skill with the fifth and so forth) and races (ad;jkljfda I wanna be a tengu so badly). That would be the best kind of progression in my opinion- and somewhere I read the possibility of housing? I just want to see how, if they can, properly manage level progression.
Although to answer you, once you hit Level 100 (lets just say that’ll be it for the sake of it), that’s it. Everything is only new content as opposed to power increases. That’s the end of it there.
I believe in Guild Wars 2. I believe in AreaNet.
(edited by AzureNightmare.3914)
Again, please remember- GW1 was a very, VERY differnet kind of game. It was mostly single-player with multiplayer fucntions and interaction. It could get away with the Level 20 cap, and it’s part of the reason for GW2, they could never have gotten away with a level 20 cap.
Every time this argument is brought up, it is shrouded in ambiguity, because there is no actual argument besides “WoW did it”, and you are all too ashamed of actually stating that argument.
Again, please remember- GW1 was a very, VERY differnet kind of game. It was mostly single-player with multiplayer fucntions and interaction. It could get away with the Level 20 cap, and it’s part of the reason for GW2, they could never have gotten away with a level 20 cap.
Every time this argument is brought up, it is shrouded in ambiguity, because there is no actual argument besides “WoW did it”, and you are all too ashamed of actually stating that argument.
Well I’ve never touched WoW before in my life so i’m not even trying to make that arguement (I enjoy not spending 15 dollars a month for a game). I’m not bringing this arguement up out of some kind of shame or some BS like that, I’m bringing it up because it’s a fact.
I’m saying this because the fact is, GW1 was a very different game than GW2 is, and always will be. One I believe could get away with it’s low level cap and never increasing, while GW2, being that different game had a harder time avoiding it.
And that’s how I feel. I don’t, and probably never will play WoW even if it became free, so if you’re gonna reply to this and you wanna bring that arguement up, keep it in mind. I know kitten about it for the most part, really.
I believe in Guild Wars 2. I believe in AreaNet.
I would prefer to have an alternate forms of progression rather than a simple level increase. GW1 had some systems like that with the Sunspear/Lightbringer progression system. You’d get improved skills as you increase your rank in the respective faction. This wouldn’t work so well in GW2, but I think doing something along the same lines can give players a sense of progression in expansions while not feeling like you’re just working towards a new level cap.
Well I’ve never touched WoW before in my life so i’m not even trying to make that arguement (I enjoy not spending 15 dollars a month for a game). I’m not bringing this arguement up out of some kind of shame or some BS like that, I’m bringing it up because it’s a fact.
I’m saying this because the fact is, GW1 was a very different game than GW2 is, and always will be. One I believe could get away with it’s low level cap and never increasing, while GW2, being that different game had a harder time avoiding it.
And that’s how I feel. I don’t, and probably never will play WoW even if it became free, so if you’re gonna reply to this and you wanna bring that arguement up, keep it in mind. I know kitten about it for the most part, really.
It doesn’t matter that you haven’t played WoW or not, because you are still being incredibly vague and not communicating anything other than basically “WoW did it so GW2 should do it too”.
Well I’ve never touched WoW before in my life so i’m not even trying to make that arguement (I enjoy not spending 15 dollars a month for a game). I’m not bringing this arguement up out of some kind of shame or some BS like that, I’m bringing it up because it’s a fact.
I’m saying this because the fact is, GW1 was a very different game than GW2 is, and always will be. One I believe could get away with it’s low level cap and never increasing, while GW2, being that different game had a harder time avoiding it.
And that’s how I feel. I don’t, and probably never will play WoW even if it became free, so if you’re gonna reply to this and you wanna bring that arguement up, keep it in mind. I know kitten about it for the most part, really.
It doesn’t matter that you haven’t played WoW or not, because you are still being incredibly vague and not communicating anything other than basically “WoW did it so GW2 should do it too”.
The biggest difference between GW1 and GW2 is a persistent world. With the instanced nature of GW1, it wasn’t a world, but a series of hubs with levels attached to them. The persistence is by far the largest and most prominent difference.
With persistence tends to come some progression. GW1 could have gotten away with no levels whatsoever because of its closed and limited nature. Instead they controlled what skills you had at the onset to make it feel like your character became more powerful until a certain point. Elite skills were then used to further extend this. It’s to give the illusion of growth, even in such a small leveling process.
With persistent worlds, people want to feel powerful generally. They are also required to be somewhat controlled in their flow of the game. The game wouldn’t work very well if I could go straight to Orr from the get go. The levels of 1-80 is indeed as a gating mechanism of sorts to control how quickly you progress, and prevents you from jumping straight to the end of the game. The progression, the increase in stats, are all a product of the need to more or less control the progression. Hence, why an increase in level cap may be necessary for expansion content that contains a new story that is to be told. You control the flow of the story through the levels and the ability to fight tougher creatures.
It’s not simply because WoW did it. Games have done it before WoW. Even standard RPG’s. It’s to control the rate at which you experience the world. It’s the very nature of an MMORPG. This game does plenty that WoW doesn’t.
Lord Lefteris – Engineer [Sanctum of Rall]
The biggest difference between GW1 and GW2 is a persistent world. With the instanced nature of GW1, it wasn’t a world, but a series of hubs with levels attached to them. The persistence is by far the largest and most prominent difference.
With persistence tends to come some progression. GW1 could have gotten away with no levels whatsoever because of its closed and limited nature. Instead they controlled what skills you had at the onset to make it feel like your character became more powerful until a certain point. Elite skills were then used to further extend this. It’s to give the illusion of growth, even in such a small leveling process.
With persistent worlds, people want to feel powerful generally. They are also required to be somewhat controlled in their flow of the game. The game wouldn’t work very well if I could go straight to Orr from the get go. The levels of 1-80 is indeed as a gating mechanism of sorts to control how quickly you progress, and prevents you from jumping straight to the end of the game. The progression, the increase in stats, are all a product of the need to more or less control the progression. Hence, why an increase in level cap may be necessary for expansion content that contains a new story that is to be told. You control the flow of the story through the levels and the ability to fight tougher creatures.
It’s not simply because WoW did it. Games have done it before WoW. Even standard RPG’s. It’s to control the rate at which you experience the world. It’s the very nature of an MMORPG. This game does plenty that WoW doesn’t.
Your argument is unconvincing. You haven’t tied persistence to a continual need for what you call progression. Your key point, that levels control the flow, is blatantly false in the case of Guild Wars 2. It doesn’t control flow at all. I can, for instance, level from 2 to 80 inside WvW and then walk to Orr. Or I can do AC runs from 30 to 80 and walk to Orr in my full exotic set. All it does is mandate time doing something else before I go there, which is only important because it is a high level area… which is in a sense circular logic and one which can be done away with by proper design.
LF2M Max Ascended Only!
Your argument is unconvincing. You haven’t tied persistence to a continual need for what you call progression. Your key point, that levels control the flow, is blatantly false in the case of Guild Wars 2. It doesn’t control flow at all. I can, for instance, level from 2 to 80 inside WvW and then walk to Orr. Or I can do AC runs from 30 to 80 and walk to Orr in my full exotic set. All it does is mandate time doing something else before I go there, which is only important because it is a high level area… which is in a sense circular logic and one which can be done away with by proper design.
I kinda struggle to put my thoughts into words, especially while at work.
Without this sort of pushing a character along a particular path, how would a player experience growth? How can you push the right buttons and make players feel more powerful over time? Even just unlocking skills is a form of vertical progression, you get more as you get further along.
So how would a horizontal progression model work in a MMORPG, which very purpose is to progress a character from pretty much nothing to a hero?
I use Planetside 2 as the best example of an actual Horizontal Progression game, and even then, it still has plenty of vertical progression.
You play the game, with any class, any vehicle right from install. You can be competitive, and don’t need to level. Not like in an RPG atleast. Any experience you get awards certifications, which allow for weapon purchases, which are just serving a different purpose, but aren’t any better than what you start with. The difference with this game is it’s a Sandbox combat game.
GW2… is not. Hasn’t been from level 1. We have more of a themepark game, where story and character progression is more deeply intertwined with the enviroment and world. As you level, you push further along into Tyria. It does however have some elements of Horizontal progression, but this game at its core, wasn’t built around it. Really, this was evident from the Beta, Even if you leveled in WvW, you were still forced along the same path as everyone else, by doing the personal story.
Planetside 2 on the other hand isn’t an RPG, it’s an action oriented FPS game. A Sandbox with no end goal, no real story progression, and no real character progression. Your character name, and class doesn’t matter in this game, he is just one of many grunts. The entire content was designed around the chaotic nature of a sandbox.
GW1 now, this game is neither a themepark or a Sandbox game. It’s more of a closed box. You only have one path really to progress your character and Story. There is technically a start and a end. There’s a fixed journey inbetween, and not alot of room to explore. It’s not a persistent world in the slightest, and is more akin to a single player RPG with coop.
The three different games are all vastly different from one an another, and feature entirely different progression models. GW2 would need to borrow many elements from Planetside 2 to effectively be Horizontal progression and it’s too open for GW1’s closed progression.
Lord Lefteris – Engineer [Sanctum of Rall]
(edited by tkalamba.2541)
Your argument is unconvincing. You haven’t tied persistence to a continual need for what you call progression. Your key point, that levels control the flow, is blatantly false in the case of Guild Wars 2. It doesn’t control flow at all. I can, for instance, level from 2 to 80 inside WvW and then walk to Orr. Or I can do AC runs from 30 to 80 and walk to Orr in my full exotic set. All it does is mandate time doing something else before I go there, which is only important because it is a high level area… which is in a sense circular logic and one which can be done away with by proper design.
I kinda struggle to put my thoughts into words, especially while at work.
Without this sort of pushing a character along a particular path, how would a player experience growth? How can you push the right buttons and make players feel more powerful over time? Even just unlocking skills is a form of vertical progression, you get more as you get further along.
So how would a horizontal progression model work in a MMORPG, which very purpose is to progress a character from pretty much nothing to a hero?
I use Planetside 2 as the best example of an actual Horizontal Progression game, and even then, it still has plenty of vertical progression.
You play the game, with any class, any vehicle right from install. You can be competitive, and don’t need to level. Not like in an RPG atleast. Any experience you get awards certifications, which allow for weapon purchases, which are just serving a different purpose, but aren’t any better than what you start with. The difference with this game is it’s a Sandbox combat game.
GW2… is not. Hasn’t been from level 1. We have more of a themepark game, where story and character progression is more deeply intertwined with the enviroment and world. As you level, you push further along into Tyria. It does however have some elements of Horizontal progression, but this game at its core, wasn’t built around it. Really, this was evident from the Beta, Even if you leveled in WvW, you were still forced along the same path as everyone else, by doing the personal story.
Planetside 2 on the other hand isn’t an RPG, it’s an action oriented FPS game. A Sandbox with no end goal, no real story progression, and no real character progression. Your character name, and class doesn’t matter in this game, he is just one of many grunts. The entire content was designed around the chaotic nature of a sandbox.
GW1 now, this game is neither a themepark or a Sandbox game. It’s more of a closed box. You only have one path really to progress your character and Story. There is technically a start and a beginning. There’s a fixed journey inbetween, and not alot of room to explore. It’s not a persistent world in the slightest, and is more akin to a single player RPG with coop.
The three different games are all vastly different from one an another, and feature entirely different progression models. GW2 would need to borrow many elements from Planetside 2 to effectively be Horizontal progression and it’s too open for GW1’s closed progression.
Well put. I couldn’t say it any better.
Judges of the Tarnished Coast
Sagardon Kahn – Guardian
Hagalaz Kahn – Warrior
Sagardon Kahn – Guardian
Hagalaz Kahn – Warrior
Gw1 was not an MMO, Gw2 is an MMO… They are not the same type of game.
Sources and Game Critics disagree with you.
…but I guess you know more than they, because there’s nothing at all “massively multiplayer” about grouping with players to PvP or trailblaze through hundreds of hours of online gaming content, is there?
Yes, GW1 was an MMORPG, just as much as SWTOR is an MMORPG despite similar linearity and stark focus on story. GW2 is as much an MMORPG as WoW is for its massive-scale content and open world exploration.
You don’t define what the industry calls an “MMORPG;” the standards by which they were founded, do.
It’s time we stop comparing GW1 to GW2 as an argument for what defines an MMORPG, and take lessons learned from the first game on how the larger-scaled successor can retain some of its identity. Horizontal progression is possible in a game like this, so long as they’re not treadmilling us through three new tiers of armor every year with each major content release.
Want to beat WoW? You can start by not emulating it.
Judges of the Tarnished Coast
Sagardon Kahn – Guardian
Hagalaz Kahn – Warrior
Sagardon Kahn – Guardian
Hagalaz Kahn – Warrior
Without this sort of pushing a character along a particular path, how would a player experience growth? How can you push the right buttons and make players feel more powerful over time? Even just unlocking skills is a form of vertical progression, you get more as you get further along.
If the skills are balanced, ie: no power creep then adding additional skills and abilities, or even traits is not vertical “progression”. Adding these new skills/traits allow the player to feel more powerful, as they are able to customize their characters more. Additionally a player will feel much more powerful by learning the game more, understanding their class and the game, and by increasing their overall skill level.
I use Planetside 2 as the best example of an actual Horizontal Progression game, and even then, it still has plenty of vertical progression.
You play the game, with any class, any vehicle right from install. You can be competitive, and don’t need to level. Not like in an RPG atleast. Any experience you get awards certifications, which allow for weapon purchases, which are just serving a different purpose, but aren’t any better than what you start with. The difference with this game is it’s a Sandbox combat game.
Planetside 2 on the other hand isn’t an RPG, it’s an action oriented FPS game. A Sandbox with no end goal, no real story progression, and no real character progression. Your character name, and class doesn’t matter in this game, he is just one of many grunts. The entire content was designed around the chaotic nature of a sandbox.
In my opinion, Planetside 2 is probably one of the worst examples you can pick for “horizontal progression”. That game requires a great deal of game time simply to unlock basics (I will mostly use examples for an interceptor pilot role), like ATA missiles on a jet, C4 on infantry. That can be reasoned away with “well all MMO’s have a bit of grind”. Then comes the strictly superior upgrades, like receiving 20% less damage from flake guns on your aircraft, larger magazines, faster reload rates, greater zoom on your sights, faster movement, tighter turns, enemies taking longer to lock on to your aircraft with anti-air missiles, and many more advantages. That game would take what?… maybe a year of playing it to unlock your one chosen build to its fullest?
I’m not playing Planetside 2 precisely because it has quite literally years of “grinding” to allow you to play optimal builds. And all of this is restricted to a single character, on a single faction, on a single server. Need to change your faction and/or server to meet up with a group playing on a different server/faction??.. too bad looks like you are going to be grinding for another year to fully unlock your build again.
GW2… is not. Hasn’t been from level 1. We have more of a themepark game, where story and character progression is more deeply intertwined with the enviroment and world. As you level, you push further along into Tyria. It does however have some elements of Horizontal progression, but this game at its core, wasn’t built around it. Really, this was evident from the Beta, Even if you leveled in WvW, you were still forced along the same path as everyone else, by doing the personal story.
This is ignoring the point raised that you can level up and gear up (excluding Ascended) however you wish. The only ways that the environments force progression, is by demanding a higher level of skill, as well as their geographic positioning (you literally cannot walk from your starting zone to Orr, because there are other zones in the way). Someone who levels/gears up in WvW, dungeons or crafting, when they go out to explore the zones, will be met with more challenging content the higher the arbitrary zone level goes, as there will be less scaling down. There is no necessary gear “progression” involved in exploring the open world. I myself am one of those people that leveled and gear up almost entirely with a combination of WvW and dungeons.
(edited by Surbrus.6942)
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