Guild Wars 2

When GW1 was released, I think most people, even those of us who had followed it for years, were surprised by the amount of PvE content. Originally the pitch for the game was very PvP centric.
The community divided into a PvE / PvP split. Guild Wars 1 was a game in the classical sense that it ended once you had done the campaign. End of the story. Wait until new expansion. *bold

However, as time went on, it was loaded with the hunt for titles, skills, hard mode completion and so on. The ultimate point was that the game labeled itself as not a grind by force, but by force. Because there were people who needed these carrot-on-a-stick goals to enjoy themselves. Others however, did not find them enjoyable.

Some stopped playing, and would wait until a new campaign was released, others would focus on the PvP, others would make new characters and play with their friends.
I think the important thing to remember, is that you don’t have to play anymore once the game is done. Getting a legendary weapon or some dungeon armor, is not for everybody. And thankfully, unlike other games, they are not needed to excel in the game. You won’t be inferior to your lack of raiding.

GW2 gives you a lot of content for your buck. Many games that costs 60 Dollars lasts 6-12 hours. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect more, considering the amount of stuff you are getting for your money. If you compare it to say, what it costs to go watch a movie in a theater (10-15 dollars) which lasts 1,5-2,5 hours, it’s quite amazing the value that you are getting. *bold

You could say that. Well it’s an MMO, it’s supposed to go on forever. But I am not sure about that. First of all because I know of no MMO that is truly fun and meaningful after reaching it’s end game. PvP and dungeons/raids are the sthick in the ghist of them. Besides that, people assault you with nostalagia, speaking fondly of the better days of old of UO, Planetside, AC, DaOC, SWG-Pre CU and Vanilla WoW, or whatever other title they may fancy. But none of these games currently holds a happy population. The developers are always blamed for ruining the fun.

I believe the truth is simply, that the repetition of doing the same content in variational skins, and encounters grows old, and because forever-MMO offers no: “game is done. now go out in the sun and play” gamers keep playing a game they are bored of until they finally rage quit and talks about the days of old, which often were not better. The game was just new and exciting. And that is how it is with all games.
I believe a game like Lord of the Rings Online which is a fully featured MMO, also took a stand about accepting that once you hit the cap and have seen the majority of content, its perfectly reasonable to not play until they make new stuff. Why wouldn’t you expect that?

In theory, it should not even take any rewards or goals for you to log in and kill monsters. Thats how fun the game should be. Or the crafting or the PvP. or the WvW. or the achievement hunting. How can anyone expect more of a product?

End gamer starts at level 1 only means that your doing the same activities while leveling as you do after you hit the cap. In many other MMOs, you level by doing quests, and then suddenly you hit the end game, and you have to do a completely different activity. Scaling upwards and downwards just reinforces that GW wants to reinforce personal skill and put the responsibility of being succesful back in the hands of the player. *bold

I don’t believe in the mantra, that because it’s a MMO that it’s supposed to last forever. I often get the feeling that MMOs like WoW that tries to draw out the experience indefinitely, tend to hate the game. I think it’s healthy to have a “ending”. Now the game is done. You physically progressed through the areas. Here on out, it’s completion, or the forever hunt of fighting over territory in WvW, getting more cool looking gear for your dress-up-doll-character, making a name for yourself in the sPvP or simply trying to see and do everything in terms of achievements, titles, rewards and so on and so forth.

I think, that if you do not think it’s worth it, after getting to lvl 80 to do these things, then you totally should not do it. It goes without saying, but I think some sort of cultural entitlement have made many gamers think or except some end game to give them a tedious progression even after the game is done, which is something I don’t think is realistic. If you had fun, the journey was not wasted. No need to unsubscribe. The game is here for you. That’s the cool thing. You don’t have to feel bad about not logging in or your friends beating you and outgrowing you with powerful items. You take a break now. The game is ended, and come back when you want to.

For me personally, I like to play towards long term goals, but I would never want to run the same dungeon or same activity multiple times. I think that would get boring, no matter what game. I think the way to play the game, is to vary all its activities, and if even that is boring, then to take a break and log back in once new content is made available.

Guild Wars had a brilliant end game. And it’s why I played it for over 7 years. In that game I didn’t sense the self-contempt for the game, as I have felt in games like WoW, were people are slowly losing their mind over a *forced grind. bold I don’t believe people like to be told what to do. They like options. They like doing stuff when it’s optional, when it’s on their agenda, and their accord. Thankfully you can take the time towards working towards a dungeon armor. Maybe run the same dungeon once a month. Maybe go for some karma hunting and a cultural armor? Maybe go through a rare crafted armor. Maybe scout the world for unique pieces (hearts vendors) and transmute to make the ideal looking character with the best stats. Really whatever it is you want, your not forced to do anything.

I really enjoy the casual approach. I think they are on the right track. But of course we would love to have more. Less of a barrier right after lvl 80. More tangible goals that are not that time consuming. But I think they know this, and as features are being added over the coming months (duels, spectator mode, bug fixes, tweaking, scaling tweaks, more events) I think it will be more smooth. From my experience most MMOs tend to be rougher in the beginning.

Ultimately, I am here because I played GW1 for all those years, and I felt ArenaNet treated me better as a customer, and gave me more for money, than any other company. I wonder if people play these games too much, too fast. I wonder if people would slow down, they would not burn out so quickly and see all these long term engagements as not worth it or punishing.
Because in the end, isn’t GW2 just about coming together with other people online and killing stuff? I think it brings us together like few online games have done over the last ten years. The game really makes us play together. To me the context matters little. As long as we’re playing with people whom we enjoy spending time with, we need little excuses for recreational purposes to just go out and kill monsters.
I believe this is the essence of the dynamic events. They didn’t want to get rid of your need to kill stuff majority of the time. They just wanted to make it more optimal. Easier to kill things with friends. More fun ways to kill them. More different ways to kill them, but ultimately still hacking and slashing online. *bold
I do miss the sandbox idea. I do miss building the world, and everything in it. (old school SWG!) but, I also knew that GW2 was not going to be that. I just think it’s a fantastic game, and I love the end game. Maybe I am thinking of end game in wrong way, but I love how it is. I feel confident that they will give short term rewards post-lvl80 to ease the grease towards the legendary weapons, and dungeon armors.
The trouble is of course always to balance, having really rare cool items for the select few, because a big part of what makes them cool is that very few people have them. Otherwise they would not be as cool. But maybe that in itself is also a form of entitlement?

see you in Tyria,
space cowboy

Problem is you progress through the game so fast it doesn’t feel epic or lengthy. hence why most MMOs focus on the end-game now.

This game throws experiance at you so quick the feeling of progression goes down hill.

Yes, I can explore lower dungeons scaled down, but my 80 gear still makes it easier and rewardless.

Its a flawed system in the long run, works while the rose tinted goggles are still on people.

Agreed. I’m a gamer not just a Guild Wars 2 player. If I exhaust Guild wars 2 content to my satisfaction there are other games for me to play until they add more content to enjoy.

Birdy.4816:

Problem is you progress through the game so fast it doesn’t feel epic or lengthy.

A trip to 80 takes at least 50 hours. If you don’t think that’s lengthy, it might be time to go outside.

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Problem is you progress through the game so fast it doesn’t feel epic or lengthy.

A trip to 80 takes at least 50 hours. If you don’t think that’s lengthy, it might be time to go outside.

50?
Doing what?

I consider my time quick and it took me 100 hours.

Untouch.2541:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Problem is you progress through the game so fast it doesn’t feel epic or lengthy.

A trip to 80 takes at least 50 hours. If you don’t think that’s lengthy, it might be time to go outside.

50?
Doing what?

You could craft to 80 in a relatively short amount of time, though it’s extremely expensive. And boring, imo.

My trip to 80 took me over 200 hours. I can’t really describe the trip as anything but lengthy and epic.

Guys like Birdy are still stuck in the “I gotta race to 80 because that’s where the game begins” mentality, and in doing so, they skip most of the game. He bought this game thinking it would be like every cookie-cutter WoW knockoff out there, and is now complaining about it, and trying to turn it into the very thing it was made not to be. It’s a lot like playing CoD games to the point where you actually believe every shooter in the world is like that, then buying UT3, then complaining about how the action is too fast and you can’t prone in a corner for an easy win.

Whoa guy. So you’re saying if you only got 6-12 hours out of GW2, then it was ok? I don’t think you should compare GW2 to a CoD campaign. I’m sorry, I expect a lot more from this game because I want to throw more money at it and I know it has the potential.

By the way, the amount of content is not what GW2 is deficient in. GW2 lacks interesting content. Bosses are designed poorly, dungeons are designed poorly, and dynamic events are designed poorly. PvE at 80 is just not fun. You can make as much content as you want, but if the content sucks, then I don’t want to do any of it.

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Problem is you progress through the game so fast it doesn’t feel epic or lengthy.

A trip to 80 takes at least 50 hours. If you don’t think that’s lengthy, it might be time to go outside.

in Comparison with other games in the genre yes?

I do pleanty thank you.

DusK.3849:

Untouch.2541:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Problem is you progress through the game so fast it doesn’t feel epic or lengthy.

A trip to 80 takes at least 50 hours. If you don’t think that’s lengthy, it might be time to go outside.

50?
Doing what?

You could craft to 80 in a relatively short amount of time, though it’s extremely expensive. And boring, imo.

My trip to 80 took me over 200 hours. I can’t really describe the trip as anything but lengthy and epic.

Guys like Birdy are still stuck in the “I gotta race to 80 because that’s where the game begins” mentality, and in doing so, they skip most of the game. He bought this game thinking it would be like every cookie-cutter WoW knockoff out there, and is now complaining about it, and trying to turn it into the very thing it was made not to be. It’s a lot like playing CoD games to the point where you actually believe every shooter in the world is like that, then buying UT3, then complaining about how the action is too fast and you can’t prone in a corner for an easy win.

No I got to 80 in 78 hours by “exploring the world” and collecting all the materials and getting to 99% explore ect ect.

You havn’t got a clue what you are talking about.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Well it’s an MMO, it’s supposed to go on forever. But I am not sure about that. First of all because I know of no MMO that is truly fun and meaningful after reaching it’s end game.

stopped reading right there

first of all, if you label your product with a specific term to generate more sales, you better deliver on what that label implies

furthermore, just because YOU find the endgame in the typical mmos not fun doesn’t mean someone else can’t like it. there are plenty of people still playing wow – and even daoc is still running. repeating stuff that people spout after they fell for the hype and have buyers remorse and/or simply didn’t like the game don’t help your argument.

as for the nostalgia, that could fill a whole thread alone. let’s just say the fact that there IS nostalgia related to these games says something. for the rest it’s probably suffice to say “you should have been there”.

Birdy.4816:

Problem is you progress through the game so fast it doesn’t feel epic or lengthy. hence why most MMOs focus on the end-game now.

This game throws experiance at you so quick the feeling of progression goes down hill.

Yes, I can explore lower dungeons scaled down, but my 80 gear still makes it easier and rewardless.

Its a flawed system in the long run, works while the rose tinted goggles are still on people.

That has not been my experience at all mate.

From Final Fantasy to Everquest, I have not enjoyed a themepark MMO for the longest time, because of how long winded they are. I personally have an extreme dislike for time consuming games. I love the sense of reward from completing something difficult. I’ve spent close to a hundred hours on Dark Souls (not an MMO) because it’s difficult. That is satisfactory. That is rewarding.

But it takes no effort, outside wasting extreme amounts of time. I feel I get tangible experience from just playing. I think doing hearts, or gathering materials or killing players in WvW are all worth it. They give enough experience to make it fresh. To make each play session meaningful.

Why extent the experience? Thats when you are making it a grind. That’s the problem. A game must not waste a players time. Making a game last longer does not make it better I think. It would be like beating your head into a wall, because by the time you stop doing it will feel very good.
The journey, must be fun all the way through. And I think a short but great experience is much better than a long repetitive experience.
I have lots of video games to play, movies to watch, and books to read. I can’t afford to spend my time on something that is anything less than excellent every moment that I am playing.

And that is one of the reasons why I love GW2, and its approach. It’s not annoying or long winded. I truly love this. It’s a blessing in disguise. If you are a player who is all about doing the story and seeing things once, then the most important thing surely has to keep a pace?

If I am paying good money to watch a film, I wouldnt want to the director to extend the movie to give me more bang for my buck. If a movie can be told in 1 hour, thirty minutes, surely it will be horrible if they extended the film to 3 hours by just adding filler and fluff. you start getting bored, the great pacing is gone, and the enjoyment you would have had with the shorter version is replaced with regret and a sense of having been able to spend your time doing something else.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

if people play these games too much, too fast. I wonder if people would slow down, they would not burn out so quickly and see all these long term engagements as not worth it or punishing.
Because in the end, isn’t GW2 just about coming together with other people online and killing stuff? I think it brings us together like few online games have done over the last ten years. The game really makes us play together. To me the context matters little. As long as we’re playing with people whom we enjoy spending time with, we need little excuses for recreational purposes to just go out and kill monsters.
I believe this is the essence of the dynamic events. They didn’t want to get rid of your need to kill stuff majority of the time. They just wanted to make it more optimal. Easier to kill things with friends. More fun ways to kill them. More different ways to kill them, but ultimately still hacking and slashing online.

The thing is though, to spend so much time making this game and have so very little for people to do at 80 is ridiculous, they most definitely played other MMORPG’s before, they know that there is a playerbase who love to devote endless hours into games, to say the whole game from level 1 is the endgame is a cop out.

The game does make you play together, the only issue is, it’s just mindless zerging, DE’s are a complete zergfest and while they were an interesting change in how to level, there is no depth to the combat, people don’t need to work together to kill the boss or get the event done, it’s just completely self explanatory even the big boss zone events, they’re completely lacking.

The same with dungeons, it’s a complete zerg and again the bosses lacking any interesting mechanics, it’s all very self explanatory. Another issue with dungeons is people don’t even do certain types, so all this “LET’S PLAY FOR FUN” crap is nonsense, since people are qued outside COF wanting to do speed runs and do the same Explorer mode route every time. some of the dungeons are not even being used. If people were truly playing for fun then they would at least attempt to do the other routes an explorer dungeon has to offer and they wouldn’t be grinding the same dungeon constantly.

I really don’t see the point of zerging something like a mindless idiot, with very little to no thought required, with very little interaction with the other players. It completely discourages any social aspect to the game, and sadly SPVP and WvWvW is not much better.

Gray is spot on.

They said “the entire game is end-game” and explained that all end-game concepts would be there throughout the game not just at the end.

That never EVER suggested that there will be no persistant end-game that is enjoyable or grindy.

And that is why you have alot of people here dissapointed, we are all happy to have end-game concepts from level 1.

Just not happy that there is no well thought out level 80 content that ironically is not just a token/material grind with no challenge.

Daniel.2743:

…all this “LET’S PLAY FOR FUN” crap is nonsense…

I agree! Has anything ever been so absurd as the concept of playing games for something as stupid and pointless as FUN?

ZannX.4058:

Whoa guy. So you’re saying if you only got 6-12 hours out of GW2, then it was ok? I don’t think you should compare GW2 to a CoD campaign. I’m sorry, I expect a lot more from this game because I want to throw more money at it and I know it has the potential.

By the way, the amount of content is not what GW2 is deficient in. GW2 lacks interesting content. Bosses are designed poorly, dungeons are designed poorly, and dynamic events are designed poorly. PvE at 80 is just not fun. You can make as much content as you want, but if the content sucks, then I don’t want to do any of it.

Hey, thanks for replying,

For clarification,
No I am not saying that it would be great if GW2 lasted 6-12 hours. I was just trying to put things in perspective, with regards to value contra what you are paying. You get a lot of content for what you are paying.

If you think the bosses, DEs and Dungeons are all designed poorly, then it sounds like the game is not for you. I on the other hand, find the DEs and and bosses awesome. I’m not a dungeon expert, and haven’t really mastered them enough or done the explorable modes on half of them, so I can’t really comment on that yet.
But that’s okay. I hope you find something else, that you think is awesomely designed, and enjoy playing.

peace

SpectacularYak.6518:

Daniel.2743:

…all this “LET’S PLAY FOR FUN” crap is nonsense…

I agree! Has anything ever been so absurd as the concept of playing games for something as stupid and pointless as FUN?

The problem here is people find Grinds, Rewards, epic bosses (99% of them in this game are mindless) cool long dungeons that you can do with large groups (All other content in this game has large groups, why not clever dungeons) are all fun.

Grinding tokens and materials and be told to “slow down” and “do unrewarding older content that you have already done” fun.

You have no arguement… just mindless defence.

Birdy.4816:

The problem here is people find Grinds, Rewards, epic bosses (99% of them in this game are mindless) cool long dungeons that you can do with large groups (All other content in this game has large groups, why not clever dungeons) are all fun.

Grinding tokens and materials and be told to “slow down” and “do unrewarding older content that you have already done” fun.

You have no arguement… just mindless defence.

I’m sorry…you are debating the different things that people find fun, and your premise is that I “have no argument”? Because what you find fun is what’s actually fun, in an objective and quantifiable way? Is that what I am to understand?

Hell, you don’t even know which of those things I like and don’t like, and what things I do or do not find fun about the current model of GW2, because you’re too busy slamming your forehead off the “FANBOY” button and accusing me of “not having an argument” because I made fun of a guy who implied the concept of playing games for fun was pointless.

Careful not to jerk those knees too hard, champ, you might give yourself a hernia.

SpectacularYak.6518:

Daniel.2743:

…all this “LET’S PLAY FOR FUN” crap is nonsense…

I agree! Has anything ever been so absurd as the concept of playing games for something as stupid and pointless as FUN?

It’s easy to take a word out of context, my point was if it’s so much fun then why are people not even doing that content?

Yeah, I just saw people LFGing for about every explorable dungeon in the game in Lion’s Arch chat just now. Yesterday, while working on map completion in Bloodtide, I met three other level 80’s. This argument that “nobody’s doing the content” is probably the most ill-informed thing I’ve read on the forums all day.

Daniel.2743:

It’s easy to take a word out of context, my point was if it’s so much fun then why are people not even doing that content?

Do you know what a biased sample is? Or a confirmation bias?

Do you have any actual statistics to back up your assertion that “no one is doing that content”? Or is all 100% anecdotal as your point implies?

Hell I don’t even LIKE dungeons in their current incarnation. You and I can sit around all day insulting them if you want. But I’m quite certain there are, in fact, people who find things I don’t like fun. Incredible, I know.

Daniel.2743:

SpectacularYak.6518:

Daniel.2743:

…all this “LET’S PLAY FOR FUN” crap is nonsense…

I agree! Has anything ever been so absurd as the concept of playing games for something as stupid and pointless as FUN?

It’s easy to take a word out of context, my point was if it’s so much fun then why are people not even doing that content?

Bingo.

Been trying to say this in other threads. GW2 actually has a metrickitten load of content. The problem is that the content itself is not fun due to poor reward systems (yes, it’s more fun to be rewarded properly for what you do), and general poor design of content.

I’ve played 280 hours over 12+ hours some days since pre-release, I don’t understand how people could have done everything already. I have an 80 mesmer, 400 tailor and I only have completed 57% of the world content. Best MMO I’ve played so far.

Gray.9650:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Well it’s an MMO, it’s supposed to go on forever. But I am not sure about that. First of all because I know of no MMO that is truly fun and meaningful after reaching it’s end game.

stopped reading right there

first of all, if you label your product with a specific term to generate more sales, you better deliver on what that label implies

furthermore, just because YOU find the endgame in the typical mmos not fun doesn’t mean someone else can’t like it. there are plenty of people still playing wow – and even daoc is still running. repeating stuff that people spout after they fell for the hype and have buyers remorse and/or simply didn’t like the game don’t help your argument.

as for the nostalgia, that could fill a whole thread alone. let’s just say the fact that there IS nostalgia related to these games says something. for the rest it’s probably suffice to say “you should have been there”.

Nobody decides what a MMO is or what it needs to have. Guild Wars itself was a game that tried to transcend the barriers. Lots of peoples who are “Sandbox 4life” don’t even see games like WoW as real MMOs. Many of these of players think fullheartedly, that raids and instanced end game content is complete contradictory to what UO M59 and MUDs of all tried to do.

The thing is – Nobody is entitled to say what a MMO has to be. Or that a game which tries to break new bold or create new foundations have to deliver on the same things like other games have.
It’s no secret that Guild Wars 2 was never meant to satisfy people who wanted the WoW replacements. They said they would expand on Guild Wars. They would offer MMO features like auction housing, persistent large scale pvp, repeatable-long-term-enganged dungeons and lots of events that would run at random times throughout the world, while still retaining quite a lot of the philosophies that made Guild Wars 1 great.

We knewe this back in 2007, from the initial PR slash. Thing is that a lot of people and websites have taken this information and tweaked it to sound like the game would deliver something else.

You are right about plenty of people still playing WoW. You got lots of options if you want that. LOTRO, TERA, SWTOR, Aion. Conan. You got lots of great games that you can play for free that are like that.

You don’t have a whole lot of games that play like GW2. You got some that still has public quests, but none that does them as well as GW2 (in my opinion at least!). I ask you, why should GW2 offer what all those gamers offer? Why can’t GW2 not just have its own feature set?

I think its fine that people want WoW, and raids. It’s not for me anymore. Thats why I play wow until expansion caps, and then stop playing. I grow bored of battlegrounds, arenas, dungeons and raids. its not just the emphasis on carrot-on-a-stick-uber-items, but also just the outdated combat systems.

GW2 is different and a fresh breathe of air. it has no monthly fee, of course the expectations and target audience is different. GW2 is a different kind of MMO. It doesnt need to offer the same end game as others. And honestly, is WoWs end game so much better? I know tons of people who play it, who complain and dislike it all the time. At the end of the day, I think most people linger on in these games because of their friends. Sign me personally up as one of those that prefer this end game, compared to traditional themeparkistic MMOs. I like this direction.

Daniel.2743:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

if people play these games too much, too fast. I wonder if people would slow down, they would not burn out so quickly and see all these long term engagements as not worth it or punishing.
Because in the end, isn’t GW2 just about coming together with other people online and killing stuff? I think it brings us together like few online games have done over the last ten years. The game really makes us play together. To me the context matters little. As long as we’re playing with people whom we enjoy spending time with, we need little excuses for recreational purposes to just go out and kill monsters.
I believe this is the essence of the dynamic events. They didn’t want to get rid of your need to kill stuff majority of the time. They just wanted to make it more optimal. Easier to kill things with friends. More fun ways to kill them. More different ways to kill them, but ultimately still hacking and slashing online.

The thing is though, to spend so much time making this game and have so very little for people to do at 80 is ridiculous, they most definitely played other MMORPG’s before, they know that there is a playerbase who love to devote endless hours into games, to say the whole game from level 1 is the endgame is a cop out.

The game does make you play together, the only issue is, it’s just mindless zerging, DE’s are a complete zergfest and while they were an interesting change in how to level, there is no depth to the combat, people don’t need to work together to kill the boss or get the event done, it’s just completely self explanatory even the big boss zone events, they’re completely lacking.

The same with dungeons, it’s a complete zerg and again the bosses lacking any interesting mechanics, it’s all very self explanatory. Another issue with dungeons is people don’t even do certain types, so all this “LET’S PLAY FOR FUN” crap is nonsense, since people are qued outside COF wanting to do speed runs and do the same Explorer mode route every time. some of the dungeons are not even being used. If people were truly playing for fun then they would at least attempt to do the other routes an explorer dungeon has to offer and they wouldn’t be grinding the same dungeon constantly.

I really don’t see the point of zerging something like a mindless idiot, with very little to no thought required, with very little interaction with the other players. It completely discourages any social aspect to the game, and sadly SPVP and WvWvW is not much better.

I’m not a game developer. In the grand scheme of things I can only speculate on time allocation, but just like you can’t assert the quality, scope or duration of a product due to it’s budget, I don’t think you can with regards to it’s development cycle. If that was the case, Duke Nukem Forever would be the best game ever.

Maybe they spend a long time on the engine, or they cut a lot of content which didn’t live up to their standards, maybe working so much on iderations just slowed the content pace down. I don’t think anybody is able to speak about this, except for the devs.

continued >

continue >

Again, it boils down to journey versus destination. Maybe they just decided that they wanted to make a great world, and then have an aprupt ending until they could provide new actual content in the form of a DLC, free content or an expansion. Whatever the case, it is what it is. Complaining about there not being more, is a bit like getting mad over it raining. You can’t really change that, and I think we could all probably agree that they tried to put in as much stuff as they could. It’s not like they purposely tried to screw you over by not giving you enough stuff to do.

It’s also a question of all these events and personal story chains you dont get to see because they might not be available when you are running around the world with a certain race, or the event might not be available at the time your entering a zone.

It seems superficial to me, to say that there is not enough stuff to do, because is there someone who has tried every single event? and have experienced these events in both failure and success state?

I’ve been playing on Blacktide, and in the zones i’ve been going to often we’ve not been enough. I just discovered that I had not done Disseau Plateu on my main at all (I just skipped it entirely) so when I went back to it at all and played throughout the night, we were not enough people. We faced the giant champion gigant and were waaayyy to underlevelled, I had 5-10 events I had to do by myself.

I agree mate. Scaling is a problem. but its a complicated system with lots of variables. Anet knows this. events are really awesome and hair rising when the event is scaled correctly and your just winning by a hair. When I am in a zone with lots of players, I try to stay on overflow or go to a less populated area. I know this over abundance of large zerg group is due to initial launch rush. it will slow down in 3-4 months and they will balance these things out.

some events are also way to difficult. the fire elementalist boss in the Asura starting zone, is stupid hard. even with 30-40 people it was futile and became a lot of trial and error. so thats an expample of an event that needs to become easier. it will sort itself out. I hope;)

peace

Birdy.4816:

Just not happy that there is no well thought out level 80 content that ironically is not just a token/material grind with no challenge.

All content is still relevant at level 80 do to scaling. Just because the zone is 15-25 if that is your races leveling zone does not make it level 80 content.

Again (and this is no insult to you or other gamers with the same mindset) but you are treating this like a WoW clone where a level 15-25 zone is only relevant while you are level 15-25.

I know you have said you are 99% complete, but if true you raced through content expecting something at 80 that was never promised. You are not the person that GW2 was designed around, I know that is rough to hear as you bought it but really this game was not designed or intended for you. I think all ANet ever intended for a customer like you was that you would pick up the box, play for 200 or so hours, fully completing 1 character, and then hope you picked up the expansions to check out the new content.

Again that isn’t to insult you or anyone else like you, but honestly I don’t think this game was intended to be a traditional MMO, only an MMO in the basic definition of persistent world with multiple player characters logged on at one time.

Ordika.9513:

Birdy.4816:

Just not happy that there is no well thought out level 80 content that ironically is not just a token/material grind with no challenge.

All content is still relevant at level 80 do to scaling. Just because the zone is 15-25 if that is your races leveling zone does not make it level 80 content.

Again (and this is no insult to you or other gamers with the same mindset) but you are treating this like a WoW clone where a level 15-25 zone is only relevant while you are level 15-25.

I know you have said you are 99% complete, but if true you raced through content expecting something at 80 that was never promised. You are not the person that GW2 was designed around, I know that is rough to hear as you bought it but really this game was not designed or intended for you. I think all ANet ever intended for a customer like you was that you would pick up the box, play for 200 or so hours, fully completing 1 character, and then hope you picked up the expansions to check out the new content.

Again that isn’t to insult you or anyone else like you, but honestly I don’t think this game was intended to be a traditional MMO, only an MMO in the basic definition of persistent world with multiple player characters logged on at one time.

You cannot seriously look me in the eye and tell me that the level 15-25 zone is relevant for my 80. This was one aspect of the game that they fed the players and hyped up. In practice, this is absolutely false. Beyond 100% completion, I have 0 reason to go back to the 15-25 zone.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Gray.9650:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Well it’s an MMO, it’s supposed to go on forever. But I am not sure about that. First of all because I know of no MMO that is truly fun and meaningful after reaching it’s end game.

stopped reading right there

first of all, if you label your product with a specific term to generate more sales, you better deliver on what that label implies

furthermore, just because YOU find the endgame in the typical mmos not fun doesn’t mean someone else can’t like it. there are plenty of people still playing wow – and even daoc is still running. repeating stuff that people spout after they fell for the hype and have buyers remorse and/or simply didn’t like the game don’t help your argument.

as for the nostalgia, that could fill a whole thread alone. let’s just say the fact that there IS nostalgia related to these games says something. for the rest it’s probably suffice to say “you should have been there”.

Nobody decides what a MMO is or what it needs to have. Guild Wars itself was a game that tried to transcend the barriers. Lots of peoples who are “Sandbox 4life” don’t even see games like WoW as real MMOs. Many of these of players think fullheartedly, that raids and instanced end game content is complete contradictory to what UO M59 and MUDs of all tried to do.

The thing is – Nobody is entitled to say what a MMO has to be. Or that a game which tries to break new bold or create new foundations have to deliver on the same things like other games have.
It’s no secret that Guild Wars 2 was never meant to satisfy people who wanted the WoW replacements. They said they would expand on Guild Wars. They would offer MMO features like auction housing, persistent large scale pvp, repeatable-long-term-enganged dungeons and lots of events that would run at random times throughout the world, while still retaining quite a lot of the philosophies that made Guild Wars 1 great.

We knewe this back in 2007, from the initial PR slash. Thing is that a lot of people and websites have taken this information and tweaked it to sound like the game would deliver something else.

You are right about plenty of people still playing WoW. You got lots of options if you want that. LOTRO, TERA, SWTOR, Aion. Conan. You got lots of great games that you can play for free that are like that.

You don’t have a whole lot of games that play like GW2. You got some that still has public quests, but none that does them as well as GW2 (in my opinion at least!). I ask you, why should GW2 offer what all those gamers offer? Why can’t GW2 not just have its own feature set?

I think its fine that people want WoW, and raids. It’s not for me anymore. Thats why I play wow until expansion caps, and then stop playing. I grow bored of battlegrounds, arenas, dungeons and raids. its not just the emphasis on carrot-on-a-stick-uber-items, but also just the outdated combat systems.

GW2 is different and a fresh breathe of air. it has no monthly fee, of course the expectations and target audience is different. GW2 is a different kind of MMO. It doesnt need to offer the same end game as others. And honestly, is WoWs end game so much better? I know tons of people who play it, who complain and dislike it all the time. At the end of the day, I think most people linger on in these games because of their friends. Sign me personally up as one of those that prefer this end game, compared to traditional themeparkistic MMOs. I like this direction.

This is exactly why people are upset, the game has turned from being different into yet another WoW clone sans the raids. The gear treadmill is absolutely horrendous and has to go. The only reason for it to even be there is to get people to spend real money on gems.

If there is no reason to reach 80, and “endgame” starts at level 1; then why did my damage triple in WvW going from 79 to 80 with exotics? Wasn’t the gear and level supposed to not matter? Yet, I’ve found the only place where it doesn’t matter is in SPvP for obvious reasons. But you kill mobs faster (even when downscaled), dungeons become easier, and you stomp WvW as an 80 with exotics compared to all the other levels.

That’s what’s strange about GW2. It tries to sell the idea that it’s not necessary to grind gear or get to 80. But at the same time it is important. So it’s stuck in a weird place right now.

ZannX.4058:

Ordika.9513:

Birdy.4816:

Just not happy that there is no well thought out level 80 content that ironically is not just a token/material grind with no challenge.

All content is still relevant at level 80 do to scaling. Just because the zone is 15-25 if that is your races leveling zone does not make it level 80 content.

Again (and this is no insult to you or other gamers with the same mindset) but you are treating this like a WoW clone where a level 15-25 zone is only relevant while you are level 15-25.

I know you have said you are 99% complete, but if true you raced through content expecting something at 80 that was never promised. You are not the person that GW2 was designed around, I know that is rough to hear as you bought it but really this game was not designed or intended for you. I think all ANet ever intended for a customer like you was that you would pick up the box, play for 200 or so hours, fully completing 1 character, and then hope you picked up the expansions to check out the new content.

Again that isn’t to insult you or anyone else like you, but honestly I don’t think this game was intended to be a traditional MMO, only an MMO in the basic definition of persistent world with multiple player characters logged on at one time.

You cannot seriously look me in the eye and tell me that the level 15-25 zone is relevant for my 80. This was one aspect of the game that they fed the players and hyped up. In practice, this is absolutely false. Beyond 100% completion, I have 0 reason to go back to the 15-25 zone.

Then this game was not designed to keep you interested in continual play, as that is the only reason to go back and they make no bones about that design philosophy.

But understanding this is a great thing for you as you are out no monthly fee to come to this conclusion and move on. Hopefully you will check back when there is new content for your level 80 to play through.

Saga.1652:

If there is no reason to reach 80, and “endgame” starts at level 1; then why did my damage triple in WvW going from 79 to 80 with exotics? Wasn’t the gear and level supposed to not matter? Yet, I’ve found the only place where it doesn’t matter is in SPvP for obvious reasons. But you kill mobs faster (even when downscaled), dungeons become easier, and you stomp WvW as an 80 with exotics compared to all the other levels.

That’s what’s strange about GW2. It tries to sell the idea that it’s not necessary to grind gear or get to 80. But at the same time it is important. So it’s stuck in a weird place right now.

I agree this is a bit perplexing but I would say they would answer with:

It’s not needed it just makes your gaming easier, from a PvE perspective.

From a PvP perspective I think you’d here crickets chirp as it is too far from the stated philosophy to be a mere miscalculation in stats weighing.

Cerise.9045:

This is exactly why people are upset, the game has turned from being different into yet another WoW clone sans the raids. The gear treadmill is absolutely horrendous and has to go. The only reason for it to even be there is to get people to spend real money on gems.

Why you think that? GW1, it was the same thing. They merely expanded on ectoplasm and 15K armor, and offered more ways to achieve it. Albeit through crafting, Karma or Dungeon. You don’t need this stuff to be effective. Balance is contained in structured pvp as it’s seperate. It’s not like WoW were you get 1-shotted by someone who did raids 15 hours a day. skill over time investment.

Daniel.2743:

lol really you’re such a patronizing troll. I guarantee, you would say the same crap in a few months when there is not enough people in low level zones to do group events.

Head to COF, try and get an explorer mode dungeon going with people and I guarantee people will choose the same route over and over or head to a lesser dungeon and see if you can even get a group.

My point flew right over your head, and you just bite because you’re a troll with nothing to dispute.

I see we’ve gone straight to personal attacks!

Your point didn’t “fly over my head” sir. I’m quite capable of recognizing bias when I see it. I appreciate your concern though.

Cerise.9045:

This is exactly why people are upset, the game has turned from being different into yet another WoW clone sans the raids. The gear treadmill is absolutely horrendous and has to go. The only reason for it to even be there is to get people to spend real money on gems.

I agree that the current dungeon gear treadmill is appalling, but I don’t really see how it ties into gems in any meaningful way. Gems don’t short circuit or bypass that process at all.

Saga.1652:

If there is no reason to reach 80, and “endgame” starts at level 1; then why did my damage triple in WvW going from 79 to 80 with exotics? Wasn’t the gear and level supposed to not matter? Yet, I’ve found the only place where it doesn’t matter is in SPvP for obvious reasons. But you kill mobs faster (even when downscaled), dungeons become easier, and you stomp WvW as an 80 with exotics compared to all the other levels.

That’s what’s strange about GW2. It tries to sell the idea that it’s not necessary to grind gear or get to 80. But at the same time it is important. So it’s stuck in a weird place right now.

But WvW was never meant to be balanced, right? The odds and power structure against each others, when you cant control the fairness when its 30 vs 100, just made Anet decide that its one big pot of insanity.

Still, even as a lvl 2 I was able to have a lot of fun and be succesful in WvW just tagging along. You might say, that if I was not in a zerg mob, I would have died instantly, which I admit is true, and perhaps a flaw(?) but I also think its great to have incentive to get to lvl 80.

I think its like in GW1. You could get gear that took tons of effort and time (perfect stats, max dmg, 15% bleed on sword for example) but it would not make you invinsible. these minor adjustments in stats would not make you own or pwn anything. but it would matter if paired against a completely equal player in all terms. it would be that 0,1% difference were gear would matter. but not enough to make it anywhere near as important as skill.

Ordika.9513:

ZannX.4058:

Ordika.9513:

Birdy.4816:

Just not happy that there is no well thought out level 80 content that ironically is not just a token/material grind with no challenge.

All content is still relevant at level 80 do to scaling. Just because the zone is 15-25 if that is your races leveling zone does not make it level 80 content.

Again (and this is no insult to you or other gamers with the same mindset) but you are treating this like a WoW clone where a level 15-25 zone is only relevant while you are level 15-25.

I know you have said you are 99% complete, but if true you raced through content expecting something at 80 that was never promised. You are not the person that GW2 was designed around, I know that is rough to hear as you bought it but really this game was not designed or intended for you. I think all ANet ever intended for a customer like you was that you would pick up the box, play for 200 or so hours, fully completing 1 character, and then hope you picked up the expansions to check out the new content.

Again that isn’t to insult you or anyone else like you, but honestly I don’t think this game was intended to be a traditional MMO, only an MMO in the basic definition of persistent world with multiple player characters logged on at one time.

You cannot seriously look me in the eye and tell me that the level 15-25 zone is relevant for my 80. This was one aspect of the game that they fed the players and hyped up. In practice, this is absolutely false. Beyond 100% completion, I have 0 reason to go back to the 15-25 zone.

Then this game was not designed to keep you interested in continual play, as that is the only reason to go back and they make no bones about that design philosophy.

But understanding this is a great thing for you as you are out no monthly fee to come to this conclusion and move on. Hopefully you will check back when there is new content for your level 80 to play through.

Anet has stated that dynamic events (new ones on top of existing ones) will keep 80’s coming back to the lower level zones. The main flaw with this? DE’s are 1) designed poorly and 2) Karma reward system is broken.

Like I’ve said numerous times, there is PLENTY of content in GW2. The issue is not the lack of content. The issue is the poor design of said content and poor reward system (Karma seriously needs to be looked at). And like I’ve said before… you can make all the content you want, if it’s poorly designed I don’t want to do it.

Cerise.9045:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Gray.9650:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Well it’s an MMO, it’s supposed to go on forever. But I am not sure about that. First of all because I know of no MMO that is truly fun and meaningful after reaching it’s end game.

stopped reading right there

first of all, if you label your product with a specific term to generate more sales, you better deliver on what that label implies

furthermore, just because YOU find the endgame in the typical mmos not fun doesn’t mean someone else can’t like it. there are plenty of people still playing wow – and even daoc is still running. repeating stuff that people spout after they fell for the hype and have buyers remorse and/or simply didn’t like the game don’t help your argument.

as for the nostalgia, that could fill a whole thread alone. let’s just say the fact that there IS nostalgia related to these games says something. for the rest it’s probably suffice to say “you should have been there”.

Nobody decides what a MMO is or what it needs to have. Guild Wars itself was a game that tried to transcend the barriers. Lots of peoples who are “Sandbox 4life” don’t even see games like WoW as real MMOs. Many of these of players think fullheartedly, that raids and instanced end game content is complete contradictory to what UO M59 and MUDs of all tried to do.

The thing is – Nobody is entitled to say what a MMO has to be. Or that a game which tries to break new bold or create new foundations have to deliver on the same things like other games have.
It’s no secret that Guild Wars 2 was never meant to satisfy people who wanted the WoW replacements. They said they would expand on Guild Wars. They would offer MMO features like auction housing, persistent large scale pvp, repeatable-long-term-enganged dungeons and lots of events that would run at random times throughout the world, while still retaining quite a lot of the philosophies that made Guild Wars 1 great.

We knewe this back in 2007, from the initial PR slash. Thing is that a lot of people and websites have taken this information and tweaked it to sound like the game would deliver something else.

You are right about plenty of people still playing WoW. You got lots of options if you want that. LOTRO, TERA, SWTOR, Aion. Conan. You got lots of great games that you can play for free that are like that.

You don’t have a whole lot of games that play like GW2. You got some that still has public quests, but none that does them as well as GW2 (in my opinion at least!). I ask you, why should GW2 offer what all those gamers offer? Why can’t GW2 not just have its own feature set?

I think its fine that people want WoW, and raids. It’s not for me anymore. Thats why I play wow until expansion caps, and then stop playing. I grow bored of battlegrounds, arenas, dungeons and raids. its not just the emphasis on carrot-on-a-stick-uber-items, but also just the outdated combat systems.

GW2 is different and a fresh breathe of air. it has no monthly fee, of course the expectations and target audience is different. GW2 is a different kind of MMO. It doesnt need to offer the same end game as others. And honestly, is WoWs end game so much better? I know tons of people who play it, who complain and dislike it all the time. At the end of the day, I think most people linger on in these games because of their friends. Sign me personally up as one of those that prefer this end game, compared to traditional themeparkistic MMOs. I like this direction.

This is exactly why people are upset, the game has turned from being different into yet another WoW clone sans the raids. The gear treadmill is absolutely horrendous and has to go. The only reason for it to even be there is to get people to spend real money on gems.

What gear treadmill? Thats specifically what this game doesnt have. All the good gear you get is equal to everyone elses if your on the same level as them. I haven’t spent a dime and im doing fine, and its only a few weeks after release. Do you really want to kill the content there is off just so you can be 80 and thats gg?

Some people enjoy the raiding side of wow. I was one of them. Seperate to the gear grind and old combat mechanics, it was the high level of challenge that kept me interested. The place where teamwork was vital to success.

According to the recent endgame dev blog the focus of the difficult structured content is within the dungeons. After having played them I can safely say I agree, pretty much dungeons = raids from other games. It is the only really difficult PVE content in the game.

So why not add 10 man / 20 man versions of the current dungeons. These versions would be scaled versions of the current dungeons with harder / more mobs. This would give people the endgame content they want whilst having little impact on the non raider.

They would give the same tokens as the 5 man explorables so the gear you get would be the same. They would not exlude people as the content would be accessible in 5 man. They wouldnt remove extra people from the world because anyone who would do a 10 man dungeon will already be splitting up and doing two 5 mans.

So all the benefits of raiding without the gear grind and with little development time to bring to realisation. Giving people who like large groups and raiding an option within GW2 and hopefully bringing in a few more people who are on the fence.

As a side note they should also add an explorable version of the story mode dungeons. Seems a waste of content at the moment just experiencing it once.

ZannX.4058:

Ordika.9513:

Birdy.4816:

Just not happy that there is no well thought out level 80 content that ironically is not just a token/material grind with no challenge.

All content is still relevant at level 80 do to scaling. Just because the zone is 15-25 if that is your races leveling zone does not make it level 80 content.

Again (and this is no insult to you or other gamers with the same mindset) but you are treating this like a WoW clone where a level 15-25 zone is only relevant while you are level 15-25.

I know you have said you are 99% complete, but if true you raced through content expecting something at 80 that was never promised. You are not the person that GW2 was designed around, I know that is rough to hear as you bought it but really this game was not designed or intended for you. I think all ANet ever intended for a customer like you was that you would pick up the box, play for 200 or so hours, fully completing 1 character, and then hope you picked up the expansions to check out the new content.

Again that isn’t to insult you or anyone else like you, but honestly I don’t think this game was intended to be a traditional MMO, only an MMO in the basic definition of persistent world with multiple player characters logged on at one time.

You cannot seriously look me in the eye and tell me that the level 15-25 zone is relevant for my 80. This was one aspect of the game that they fed the players and hyped up. In practice, this is absolutely false. Beyond 100% completion, I have 0 reason to go back to the 15-25 zone.

But honestly why not? They put so much effort into the PvE world, all these differently occurring events, and art and music. Why can it not be a legitimate part of the game? of the end game? to explore and do everything? why is that not relevant? Not many MMOs have done scaling like this games does. It wants the players to take responsibility. So in that sense alone the rules change.

I don’t think it’s fair to say “thats unacceptable” simply because other MMOs have not done that. It’s just an added bonus to the dungeons, to the collect-em-all-recipe-madness, to the skill hunting, to the mystic forge, to the WvW, to the unlocking of everything WvW, to getting all the dyes, to getting the achievements.

It’s cool if it’s not worth it for you or if you dont enjoy it. But I ask again; just because you dont enjoy it, does it mean that the end game is just done poorly because its not WoW?

I knew. I knew back in 07 when this was announced that it would be different and a lot of people would want it to be the same as what they had played in the past, while simultaneously complaining about it being too much the same.

I think it’s important that we all chill, and let things smooth out. balancing with scaling, difficulty, population controls, bugs, and all the other things. I think that 6 months from now the game will feel very different. these things takes time. Many MMOs reach their prime 3-4 years after release.
GW2 just launched. its been a rocky road, a lot of people are confused about this game still, and 8 years of doing things differently will make it take time for many people to adjust.

peace!!

It’s an online game not a single player that’s for one, two it’s a game not a movie. Yeah, the plot is nice, the leveling is just insanely well done, the exploration as well. But then what when you hit end of the road? What are you supposed to do?

People are saying that you rush things when you’re level 80 by now. But you’ll get there eventualy either you like it or not. If endgame starts at level 1, try making RPG game where you’re already max leveled, with best sword in the game standing in front of last boss. Your only job is to kill him, that’s it, there is nothing more. If you kill him, you can run arround the world and talk to villagers, that’s it, nobody expects from you anything else because you killed last enemy. You don’t look for progression because you already started with this amazing sword and with maximum level. How long do you think, you can run arround villages and talk to NPCs, admire the scenery before you start thinking – “allright, I would like to do something more, it seems like I haven’t done anything else”. If you like only to explore, you should probably go for a trip arround the world and not justify things in a game saying – if you reach level 80 for one it’s your fault, secondly you should explore.

You can’t get rid of grinding in an mmorpg game, you just can’t, it’s impossible because it’s a part of the equation. Why? Because no matter how equal everyone is, people will always want to collect things, brag what they got and how awesome fight they had to get it. This is how the RPG world works, don’t try to redefine it saying it’s about exploration. People take part of it for adventurersm for the treasures, the fights and the exploration. If you cut out one of three, it’ll become boring at some point.

ZannX.4058:

Anet has stated that dynamic events (new ones on top of existing ones) will keep 80’s coming back to the lower level zones. The main flaw with this? DE’s are 1) designed poorly and 2) Karma reward system is broken.

Like I’ve said numerous times, there is PLENTY of content in GW2. The issue is not the lack of content. The issue is the poor design of said content and poor reward system (Karma seriously needs to be looked at). And like I’ve said before… you can make all the content you want, if it’s poorly designed I don’t want to do it.

I disagree that dynamic events are universally poorly done, but I’d generally agree that they do need some work. Particularly the scaling. Events do not deal with a critical mass of people very well at all, it just turns into sound and lights. Which can be fun, in a very simple “THINGS ARE HAPPENING” way, but it’s not going to scratch the challenge itch of hardcore gamers.

I think scaling of rewards needs to be looked at. If I’m level 80 in a level 6 zone, that level 6 mob needs at least a chance of dropping level 80 loot. Heck, give me level 80 karma and cash rewards for the events, too, while you’re at it. Or more than you’re giving now. And then, yes…I will migrate to other zones, just for a change of pace. As long as all the high end crafting materials and drops are in, say, Orr, people will sit in Orr and say “This is the end game!”.

Fortunately this is a pretty simple fix, IF they decide to fix it. It’s not wedded to the design of the game that “scaling is bad”.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

ZannX.4058:

Ordika.9513:

Birdy.4816:

Just not happy that there is no well thought out level 80 content that ironically is not just a token/material grind with no challenge.

All content is still relevant at level 80 do to scaling. Just because the zone is 15-25 if that is your races leveling zone does not make it level 80 content.

Again (and this is no insult to you or other gamers with the same mindset) but you are treating this like a WoW clone where a level 15-25 zone is only relevant while you are level 15-25.

I know you have said you are 99% complete, but if true you raced through content expecting something at 80 that was never promised. You are not the person that GW2 was designed around, I know that is rough to hear as you bought it but really this game was not designed or intended for you. I think all ANet ever intended for a customer like you was that you would pick up the box, play for 200 or so hours, fully completing 1 character, and then hope you picked up the expansions to check out the new content.

Again that isn’t to insult you or anyone else like you, but honestly I don’t think this game was intended to be a traditional MMO, only an MMO in the basic definition of persistent world with multiple player characters logged on at one time.

You cannot seriously look me in the eye and tell me that the level 15-25 zone is relevant for my 80. This was one aspect of the game that they fed the players and hyped up. In practice, this is absolutely false. Beyond 100% completion, I have 0 reason to go back to the 15-25 zone.

But honestly why not? They put so much effort into the PvE world, all these differently occurring events, and art and music. Why can it not be a legitimate part of the game? of the end game? to explore and do everything? why is that not relevant? Not many MMOs have done scaling like this games does. It wants the players to take responsibility. So in that sense alone the rules change.

As I’ve said a few posts earlier (seriously, repeating myself a lot it seems)… so here’s some cliffs for the ADD:

- Plenty of content in GW2
- Content is designed poorly. DE’s are not Dynamic or fun.
- Poor implementation of Karma system/rewards undermines incentive to do DE’s.
- You can make all the content you want. If it’s terrible, I will not do it.

Ubung.7423:

Some people enjoy the raiding side of wow. I was one of them. Seperate to the gear grind and old combat mechanics, it was the high level of challenge that kept me interested. The place where teamwork was vital to success.

According to the recent endgame dev blog the focus of the difficult structured content is within the dungeons. After having played them I can safely say I agree, pretty much dungeons = raids from other games. It is the only really difficult PVE content in the game.

So why not add 10 man / 20 man versions of the current dungeons. These versions would be scaled versions of the current dungeons with harder / more mobs. This would give people the endgame content they want whilst having little impact on the non raider.

They would give the same tokens as the 5 man explorables so the gear you get would be the same. They would not exlude people as the content would be accessible in 5 man. They wouldnt remove extra people from the world because anyone who would do a 10 man dungeon will already be splitting up and doing two 5 mans.

So all the benefits of raiding without the gear grind and with little development time to bring to realisation. Giving people who like large groups and raiding an option within GW2 and hopefully bringing in a few more people who are on the fence.

As a side note they should also add an explorable version of the story mode dungeons. Seems a waste of content at the moment just experiencing it once.

Question: How could they design a dungeon that would not make it feel like a zerg? I feel like the games dungeons are crazy intense and confusing, and many people have such a hard time with them, even in story mode.

To design them with 20-40 man, how would everyone have a clear role? How would we even begin to still feel significant? how can everyone have distinct role without being diminished?

Sad Swordfish.9743:

ZannX.4058:

Ordika.9513:

Birdy.4816:

Just not happy that there is no well thought out level 80 content that ironically is not just a token/material grind with no challenge.

All content is still relevant at level 80 do to scaling. Just because the zone is 15-25 if that is your races leveling zone does not make it level 80 content.

Again (and this is no insult to you or other gamers with the same mindset) but you are treating this like a WoW clone where a level 15-25 zone is only relevant while you are level 15-25.

I know you have said you are 99% complete, but if true you raced through content expecting something at 80 that was never promised. You are not the person that GW2 was designed around, I know that is rough to hear as you bought it but really this game was not designed or intended for you. I think all ANet ever intended for a customer like you was that you would pick up the box, play for 200 or so hours, fully completing 1 character, and then hope you picked up the expansions to check out the new content.

Again that isn’t to insult you or anyone else like you, but honestly I don’t think this game was intended to be a traditional MMO, only an MMO in the basic definition of persistent world with multiple player characters logged on at one time.

You cannot seriously look me in the eye and tell me that the level 15-25 zone is relevant for my 80. This was one aspect of the game that they fed the players and hyped up. In practice, this is absolutely false. Beyond 100% completion, I have 0 reason to go back to the 15-25 zone.

But honestly why not? They put so much effort into the PvE world, all these differently occurring events, and art and music. Why can it not be a legitimate part of the game? of the end game? to explore and do everything? why is that not relevant? Not many MMOs have done scaling like this games does. It wants the players to take responsibility. So in that sense alone the rules change.

I don’t think it’s fair to say “thats unacceptable” simply because other MMOs have not done that. It’s just an added bonus to the dungeons, to the collect-em-all-recipe-madness, to the skill hunting, to the mystic forge, to the WvW, to the unlocking of everything WvW, to getting all the dyes, to getting the achievements.

It’s cool if it’s not worth it for you or if you dont enjoy it. But I ask again; just because you dont enjoy it, does it mean that the end game is just done poorly because its not WoW?

I knew. I knew back in 07 when this was announced that it would be different and a lot of people would want it to be the same as what they had played in the past, while simultaneously complaining about it being too much the same.

I think it’s important that we all chill, and let things smooth out. balancing with scaling, difficulty, population controls, bugs, and all the other things. I think that 6 months from now the game will feel very different. these things takes time. Many MMOs reach their prime 3-4 years after release.
GW2 just launched. its been a rocky road, a lot of people are confused about this game still, and 8 years of doing things differently will make it take time for many people to adjust.

peace!!

I couldn’t agree more! The original vision should simply be further embraced!

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Cerise.9045:

This is exactly why people are upset, the game has turned from being different into yet another WoW clone sans the raids. The gear treadmill is absolutely horrendous and has to go. The only reason for it to even be there is to get people to spend real money on gems.

Why you think that? GW1, it was the same thing. They merely expanded on ectoplasm and 15K armor, and offered more ways to achieve it. Albeit through crafting, Karma or Dungeon. You don’t need this stuff to be effective. Balance is contained in structured pvp as it’s seperate. It’s not like WoW were you get 1-shotted by someone who did raids 15 hours a day. skill over time investment.

You’re thinking about prestige gear. Obsidian armor and 15k armor were hard to get because they only existed for the better looks. The cheaper armor had exactly the same stats and you could get it before even hitting level 20.

Prestige gear isn’t the issue here, the issue is getting the cheaper gear with the same stats. Right now there’s no cheaper alternative with the same stats as “prestige” gear, everything is a massive grind.

ZannX.4058:

As I’ve said a few posts earlier (seriously, repeating myself a lot it seems)… so here’s some cliffs for the ADD:

- Plenty of content in GW2
- Content is designed poorly. DE’s are not Dynamic or fun.
- Poor implementation of Karma system/rewards undermines incentive to do DE’s.
- You can make all the content you want. If it’s terrible, I will not do it.

I’ve replied to this before, but maybe you missed it.

If you think so many of the major game systems are designed poorly, which I find extremely exaggerated. I mean, there are flaws, but I think things like the DEs are the most well implemented thing in a non-sandbox MMO in over a decade. They made something work that was skimpy in Tabula Rasa and Warhammer.

I’m sorry that you think these things are poorly designed, but I know from experience, that a lot of people are enjoying these things and would totally disagree with you.

Maybe you are so much at odds with what the game tries to do, that maybe this game is not for you? Maybe there is a different game that lives up to your standards of well implemented game systems?

ZannX.4058

Anet has stated that dynamic events (new ones on top of existing ones) will keep 80’s coming back to the lower level zones. The main flaw with this? DE’s are 1) designed poorly and 2) Karma reward system is broken.

Like I’ve said numerous times, there is PLENTY of content in GW2. The issue is not the lack of content. The issue is the poor design of said content and poor reward system (Karma seriously needs to be looked at). And like I’ve said before… you can make all the content you want, if it’s poorly designed I don’t want to do it.

I will disagree on poor design, I have yet to come across a DE I didn’t like (not that I was ecstatic about them all, but I don’t regret having stopped while exploring to do any of them).

Reward is tricky, as I would say compared to what we would normally expect I would say yeah they are supper low. But I honestly think some of this was done on purpose to at the very least discourage botting/exploiting easy rewards. I can’t say that with certainty, and I wouldn’t bash them if they went the other direction and Karma started falling from the sky with a high chance of raining gold, but I can at the very least see a reason for the existing model. I think the difference is probably in my play philosophy as I am old and am more used to playing a single player game that has an end.

Cerise.9045:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Cerise.9045:

This is exactly why people are upset, the game has turned from being different into yet another WoW clone sans the raids. The gear treadmill is absolutely horrendous and has to go. The only reason for it to even be there is to get people to spend real money on gems.

Why you think that? GW1, it was the same thing. They merely expanded on ectoplasm and 15K armor, and offered more ways to achieve it. Albeit through crafting, Karma or Dungeon. You don’t need this stuff to be effective. Balance is contained in structured pvp as it’s seperate. It’s not like WoW were you get 1-shotted by someone who did raids 15 hours a day. skill over time investment.

You’re thinking about prestige gear. Obsidian armor and 15k armor were hard to get because they only existed for the better looks. The cheaper armor had exactly the same stats and you could get it before even hitting level 20.

Prestige gear isn’t the issue here, the issue is getting the cheaper gear with the same stats. Right now there’s no cheaper alternative with the same stats as “prestige” gear, everything is a massive grind.

Valid point. Absolutely. And I think it needs to be adressed.

Perhaps what ArenaNet should do, is to make a tier past lvl 80, that is much more achieveable, with the dungeon set stats. It could be a tier 4 of cultural armor sets? Players would always be able to transmute to get their own ideal look by matching and hunting for their favorite lower-level stats, and then still being able to retain the same stats.

That could perhaps be achieved to get such a set as an option, by just keep playing the game. Doing as many events, getting as many recipes, or doing good in WvW. That’s a good idea that they could implant for sure.

I think they feel this way too. That there should be some more mundane looking gear, but with dungeon set quality stats to it. It’s something to suggest at least, for those that want to be stat wise as effective as possible in WvW.

I don’t see how “let’s be apologetic and stop playing the game” is a constructive comment on how to make this game better. We all understand no game—not even gw2—has limitless content that will keep most people away from voluntary grinding. B2P and F2P MMO and their players have a mutual interest in wanting to have fun and spend as much time (and in turn, RL money) in these games as possible.

Hence the desire to grind.

Now let’s not forget what ArenaNet promised us: a better gameplay that would beat AAA subscription model MMO’s. That would also include the ability to retain players, having them engaged in the game to keep generate revenue (for the developers) and fun (for the players). As player, why should I expect anything less than that?

It is utterly absurd to consider a gameplay design that would “send players to another game due to their boredom in gw2 instead letting them grind here” is a sane one. And to all players who are saying GTFO to those who ask for more a better endgame grind, which is certainly less demanding than what ANet promised us not long ago (“free content upgrade”): what kind of pleasure do you get from a diminishing player base? Does it make you feel more “pure” in a community that only have people that share your opinion? Does it empower you to point the door to those you perceive to be less worthy of the doctrine of ArenaNet’s design philosophy?

This is not Eve Online, and ArenaNet is not CCP. This game is marketed as open, broad, and fresh as possible, so a large and diverse number of players can have different methods of having fun. Although this game is also marketed as the antithesis MMORPG of what WoW stands, note that not everyone came from WoW and any suggestion that bare any similarity to what WoW has are intentionally trying to ruin your fun. Also note that nobody is asking for raids, which is probably the only rather “original”, signature aspect of WoW.

Grinding has been an important aspect in all MMORPG. That includes EQ, to WoW, to GW1, and to GW2. GW2 so far has done an OK job to separate grinding from unique content, but unlike its predecessor, this game doesn’t provide a good grinding mechanic to those who want to grind.

And if your interest has nothing to do with grinding, please have an open mind to those who do want to grind and expect a bit more competent endgame grinding element.

Btw, thanks for keeping the topic mature and to the point. I know we disagree on fundamental levels, but hopefully the Developers reads and listens to all sides of the arguments. Hopefully we will all be satisfied:)

love to all of you wonderful ppl!