Guild Wars 2

Deith.7596:

It’s an online game not a single player that’s for one, two it’s a game not a movie. Yeah, the plot is nice, the leveling is just insanely well done, the exploration as well. But then what when you hit end of the road? What are you supposed to do?

People are saying that you rush things when you’re level 80 by now. But you’ll get there eventualy either you like it or not. If endgame starts at level 1, try making RPG game where you’re already max leveled, with best sword in the game standing in front of last boss. Your only job is to kill him, that’s it, there is nothing more. If you kill him, you can run arround the world and talk to villagers, that’s it, nobody expects from you anything else because you killed last enemy. You don’t look for progression because you already started with this amazing sword and with maximum level. How long do you think, you can run arround villages and talk to NPCs, admire the scenery before you start thinking – “allright, I would like to do something more, it seems like I haven’t done anything else”. If you like only to explore, you should probably go for a trip arround the world and not justify things in a game saying – if you reach level 80 for one it’s your fault, secondly you should explore.

You can’t get rid of grinding in an mmorpg game, you just can’t, it’s impossible because it’s a part of the equation. Why? Because no matter how equal everyone is, people will always want to collect things, brag what they got and how awesome fight they had to get it. This is how the RPG world works, don’t try to redefine it saying it’s about exploration. People take part of it for adventurersm for the treasures, the fights and the exploration. If you cut out one of three, it’ll become boring at some point.

Because this is not a sub game, once I have gotten 100% map completion and if I am tired of PvP and have found no class that I want continue to play, then I will consider my $50 well spend, pick up Borderlands 2 and start playing that. But that’s me personally and I am ok with a game that only required an initial investment having an ending. But you can bet your sweet bippie I’ll be back for the expansion or any of the free content that sparks my fancy. That’s the great thing about no sub fee and is the first thing I will enthusiastically applaud ANet on their design philosophy.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Ubung.7423:

SNIP

Question: How could they design a dungeon that would not make it feel like a zerg? I feel like the games dungeons are crazy intense and confusing, and many people have such a hard time with them, even in story mode.

To design them with 20-40 man, how would everyone have a clear role? How would we even begin to still feel significant? how can everyone have distinct role without being diminished?

Well the part about people having a hard time with them is kinda the point of raiding. Something challenging that requires organization and learning to adapt. Its about getting past that initial confusion and progressing.

I also think people do have clear roles in dungeons if done effectively. Tank, healer & dps was replaced with support, control & dps. So you can bring guardians for support and rangers for control etc.

Basically a larger group of people has to deal with the group facing them the exact way a person in a dungeon does now. Kite, control, tank. It should just take better communication. Although id have to see it in practice to know if it would truly work.

Seperately they could also add some more cool mechanics to bosses in all dungeons to make it harder. However thats probably something that just comes with experience.

My only hope is that they add PvE content that a guild can group up for, say 10-20 ppl, that is challenging and rewarding.

I don’t feel that a 5man cap is substantial enough.

kgptzac.8419:

I
Now let’s not forget what ArenaNet promised us: a better gameplay that would beat AAA subscription model MMO’s. That would also include the ability to retain players, having them engaged in the game to keep generate revenue (for the developers) and fun (for the players). As player, why should I expect anything less than that?

But are we really at that point yet? It’s been three weeks and I’m at level 60 and no where near map/story completion. We don’t have access to the numbers, but I imagine I’m above average when it comes to exhausting the content. I’m not even worried about getting max gear, because I’m still enjoying exploration of the world (currently in Blazeridge Steppes). I think if you exhaust the sizable content with in days to a few weeks, then yes, considering another game to play is a valid alternative. This isn’t a demand to leave, it’s more of a request for consuming the game at a slower pace that is closer to the average.

Grinds are put in to provide activities to do for those that clear content at an above average pace between content updates, and the grinds in GW 2 are sizable ones from what I’ve seen of the legendaries. What do you think is lacking exactly?

Ooh one more thing. I wish they would allow people to create large groups outside in the open world. Right now its limited to 5. When in a party you can see the people on the map and right click on them to join them in an overflow instance.

It would be cool to be able to go out with a massive group of my guildies all in the same group and enjoy some meta DE’s when we just wanna chill out and play. Basically squads for PVE without the 100g cost.

Here are the required materials for the Legendary Predator rifle.

1 x The Hunter of Rage (Exotic weapon)
1 x Bloodstone (200 Skill Points)
250 x Obsidian Shards (525,000 Karma)
1 x Gift of Exploration (100% map completion)
1 x Gift of Battle (500 WvWvW tokens)
77 x Mystic Clovers (RNG expensive Mystic Forge P2W ****)
100 x Icy Runestones (1 gold each)
1 x Superior Sigil of Force
250 x Globs of Ectoplasm
[1 x Gift of Might;
250 x Vials of Powerful Blood
250 x Powerful Venom Sacs
250 x Elaborate Totems
250 x Piles of Crystalline Dust]
[1 x Gift of Magic;
250 x Vicious Fangs
250 x Armored Scales
250 x Vicious Claws
250 x Ancient Bones]
[1 x Gift of Stealth;
250 x Orchalcum Ingots
250 x Orian Truffles
100 x Onyx Lodestones
1 x Gift of Knowledge (500 Crucible of Eternity Tokens)]

None of this list involves anything that requires skill. It feels like the equivalent of 10x Obsidian armors in Guild Wars 1. Only time input and silly amounts of grind.

Where is the end game content? How the hell am I supposed to farm 500 CoE tokens when I can’t even find a group to do the very first dungeon with? Where is this game’s population? The story is over, and now all there is to do is grind.

@Ubung

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Squad

It’s a grind unfortunately. We’re trying to get our guild leader it ASAP.

SirMoogie.9263:

@Ubung

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Squad

It’s a grind unfortunately. We’re trying to get our guild leader it ASAP.

I didnt think squads worked in PVE. Ok well its still way too much money for a simple game enhancing feature. I think the cost is more associated with the way it allows people to see that guy on the map and assume that guy knows what he is doing in pvp. Hence the high cost to ensure that the only people who have one actually do know what they are doing.

As a Guild Wars 1 fan, I’ve never been a proponent of the mentality a lot of traditional MMO players have. Endless content that is created as soon as the hardcore grinder demands it, simply isn’t possible to do unless you have a company with endless resources. And the only MMO company who has those kinds of resources is Blizzard.(arguably EA does as well, but with SWTOR in decline I don’t think they’re a great example to use)

Anet as fantastic of a company as you are, you are going to have a long, tiresome road ahead of you if you still intend to ‘revolutionize’ the MMO genre. Because here, especially for the players, change comes slowly, if at all. That’s why you will continue to see so many conflicting ideas about what a ‘good grind’ is.

That being said, I love what GW2 is for the most part, though they are still trying to work the kinks out, I’m am just as engrossed in the content as I ever hoped to be in the five years I’ve waited for this game to be released. I am currently at level 32 and the slower path has been the most rewarding one for me to take. For those of you who raced up to 80 and now are complaining about having so little to do at ‘end-game’ I have no sympathy for you. Content takes time to develop, and with most developers this means there will be a waiting period. So relax a bit, there will be more to do. Until then I suggest the following:

I bet many people with 100% map completion didn’t bother to talk to most of the NPC’s or take the time to explore all the fantastic little story and character details Anet wove into their game. They just looked for all the heart, vistas and point of interest objectives until their little yellow bar was maxed out. I spent several hours just exploring the main cities alone for all the little tidbits of info. they left nestled in there. And i still don’t feel like I’ve found everything there is to see in those locations.

SirMoogie.9263:

kgptzac.8419:

I
Now let’s not forget what ArenaNet promised us: a better gameplay that would beat AAA subscription model MMO’s. That would also include the ability to retain players, having them engaged in the game to keep generate revenue (for the developers) and fun (for the players). As player, why should I expect anything less than that?

But are we really at that point yet? It’s been three weeks and I’m at level 60 and no where near map/story completion. We don’t have access to the numbers, but I imagine I’m above average when it comes to exhausting the content. I’m not even worried about getting max gear, because I’m still enjoying exploration of the world (currently in Blazeridge Steppes). I think if you exhaust the sizable content with in days to a few weeks, then yes, considering another game to play is a valid alternative. This isn’t a demand to leave, it’s more of a request for consuming the game at a slower pace that is closer to the average.

Grinds are put in to provide activities to do for those that clear content at an above average pace between content updates, and the grinds in GW 2 are sizable ones from what I’ve seen of the legendaries. What do you think is lacking exactly?

I am more alluding to the recent patch to dungeons, and another thread on this forum which raised a legitimate question on what message ANet is trying to send: while they say they don’t want us to grind, there’s a huge grind revolving dungeon rewards which obviously want players to achieve, while the developers added several other features to punish people for wanting to grind instead of making the grind more fun and less grindy.

Ubung.7423:

SirMoogie.9263:

@Ubung

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Squad

It’s a grind unfortunately. We’re trying to get our guild leader it ASAP.

I didnt think squads worked in PVE. Ok well its still way too much money for a simple game enhancing feature. I think the cost is more associated with the way it allows people to see that guy on the map and assume that guy knows what he is doing in pvp. Hence the high cost to ensure that the only people who have one actually do know what they are doing.

Agreed. It could have similar uses in PVE, if dynamic events were made more challenging. Something I’ve been advocating for is a difficulty scale for dynamic events that ramp their difficulty up every time they are successfully completed (and decrease it on failure). This way the next time the event repeats it is harder to the point that it would take a coordinated guild to take down the Shatterer, for example. It could also give guilds/servers some boasting rights, such as, we’re the server that took down 10-star Shatterer first. I made the suggestion here, but it got no attention:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Scale-Dynamic-Event-Difficulty-on-Success/first#post101866

Most importantly for me is I may actually see an event fail and different event paths.

kgptzac.8419:

I am more alluding to the recent patch to dungeons, and another thread on this forum which raised a legitimate question on what message ANet is trying to send: while they say they don’t want us to grind, there’s a huge grind revolving dungeon rewards which obviously want players to achieve, while the developers added several other features to punish people for wanting to grind instead of making the grind more fun and less grindy.

Didn’t that patch just affect monetary income, and only if the same path was run twice? Or was it more? I only ask as gold hasn’t exactly been flowing in for me, but it has been flowing. More important it hasn’t been flowing out either. There just haven’t been many large purchases to make, so far. What are the large gold investments people need to make?

kgptzac.8419:

Grinding has been an important aspect in all MMORPG. That includes EQ, to WoW, to GW1, and to GW2. GW2 so far has done an OK job to separate grinding from unique content, but unlike its predecessor, this game doesn’t provide a good grinding mechanic to those who want to grind.

Grinds are NOT an important aspect in MMOs. Grinds are a BY PRODUCT of the need to keep players running on a treadmill and paying their subscription fee. They have never been remotely desirable from a game play perspective. There is nothing less visceral or compelling than watching numbers slowly go up. That’s why they started calling it a grind, way back when. Because it was unpleasant. Now we’ve got people saying “I like grinding!” Buddy, if you like it, it’s not a grind.

We need to get rid of this toxic, silly expectation that MMOs are going to provide us with endless progression. It is an oppressive, life devouring, and ultimately extraordinarily unrewarding way to design a game. It was bad enough when they did it to keep people compulsively paying a sub fee. It’s even worse to demand it now that there is no sub fee. What on earth are you guys thinking?

SpectacularYak.6518:

…

Have you read this:

http://www.mmorpgguys.com/blogs/BadSpock/032011/21585_Linear-Statistical-Progression-An-affliction-that-has-ruined-MMOs-from-the-getgo

I’ve been posting it frequently as it keeps coming up as relevant to the discussion.

SirMoogie.9263:

SNIP

I like this idea to be honest but Im still a firm advocate of larger dungeon groups. For one reason they are something I can schedule as a guild leader myself.

In a perfect world id be able to organise a weekly event where my guild participated in the 10 / 20 man dungeons, a time where challenge and coordination are supreme.

Then on other nights organise an exploration party where we all just start somewhere and make our way through the dynamic events. See where you get lucky with some large, cool bosses. A more relaxed affair where we just play the game.

SirMoogie.9263:

SpectacularYak.6518:

…

Have you read this:

http://www.mmorpgguys.com/blogs/BadSpock/032011/21585_Linear-Statistical-Progression-An-affliction-that-has-ruined-MMOs-from-the-getgo

I’ve been posting it frequently as it keeps coming up as relevant to the discussion.

Wasn’t guild wars 2 supposed to break this curse? GW1 did, and GW2 was on track to doing so until they systematically eliminated all conventional methods to get crafting materials and/or money to get basic gear in a reasonable amount of time.

Zhaneel.9208:

As a Guild Wars 1 fan, I’ve never been a proponent of the mentality a lot of traditional MMO players have. Endless content that is created as soon as the hardcore grinder demands it, simply isn’t possible to do unless you have a company with endless resources. And the only MMO company who has those kinds of resources is Blizzard.(arguably EA does as well, but with SWTOR in decline I don’t think they’re a great example to use)

Anet as fantastic of a company as you are, you are going to have a long, tiresome road ahead of you if you still intend to ‘revolutionize’ the MMO genre. Because here, especially for the players, change comes slowly, if at all. That’s why you will continue to see so many conflicting ideas about what a ‘good grind’ is.

That being said, I love what GW2 is for the most part, though they are still trying to work the kinks out, I’m am just as engrossed in the content as I ever hoped to be in the five years I’ve waited for this game to be released. I am currently at level 32 and the slower path has been the most rewarding one for me to take. For those of you who raced up to 80 and now are complaining about having so little to do at ‘end-game’ I have no sympathy for you. Content takes time to develop, and with most developers this means there will be a waiting period. So relax a bit, there will be more to do. Until then I suggest the following:

I bet many people with 100% map completion didn’t bother to talk to most of the NPC’s or take the time to explore all the fantastic little story and character details Anet wove into their game. They just looked for all the heart, vistas and point of interest objectives until their little yellow bar was maxed out. I spent several hours just exploring the main cities alone for all the little tidbits of info. they left nestled in there. And i still don’t feel like I’ve found everything there is to see in those locations.

Great post, man. Kudos for that. I’m in awe of well you captured my feelings.

I loved Star Wars Galaxies. So many of us did. When SOE created the dream team in 99-2000, to build this game, helmed by Ralph Koster, he got a lot of flack for one of his greatest design philosophies.

“Players make their own content” . Everquest was still the biggest thing, AC and DAOC were running well for the time.

His point was; no developer will ever be able to make meaningful content at the rate which hardcore players will not exhaust it and grow bored. Fighting over pvp objectives forever, or having a competitive capitalistic economy, which allows players to compete against each for control over and over, is creation of content. the trick is to make it meaningful and fun and not drawn out and repetitive.

It’s another reason why I look at GW2 with admiration.

SirMoogie.9263:

SpectacularYak.6518:

…

Have you read this:

http://www.mmorpgguys.com/blogs/BadSpock/032011/21585_Linear-Statistical-Progression-An-affliction-that-has-ruined-MMOs-from-the-getgo

I’ve been posting it frequently as it keeps coming up as relevant to the discussion.

Much of that write up is good. But I cannot stand when people falsely assume that instancing was created as a barrier or some other nonsense. It is purely a technology construct done for performance balancing reasons. Instances/Sharding/etc exists in order to balance net code. CCP avoided this in EVE because there is far less net code required because you cannot constantly change position and velocity in the world. Instead, you issue commands to change your target. Huge difference in net code load.

Sorry, I am way off topic. Pet peeve of mine.

SpectacularYak.6518:

kgptzac.8419:

Grinding has been an important aspect in all MMORPG. That includes EQ, to WoW, to GW1, and to GW2. GW2 so far has done an OK job to separate grinding from unique content, but unlike its predecessor, this game doesn’t provide a good grinding mechanic to those who want to grind.

Grinds are NOT an important aspect in MMOs. Grinds are a BY PRODUCT of the need to keep players running on a treadmill and paying their subscription fee. They have never been remotely desirable from a game play perspective. There is nothing less visceral or compelling than watching numbers slowly go up. That’s why they started calling it a grind, way back when. Because it was unpleasant. Now we’ve got people saying “I like grinding!” Buddy, if you like it, it’s not a grind.

We need to get rid of this toxic, silly expectation that MMOs are going to provide us with endless progression. It is an oppressive, life devouring, and ultimately extraordinarily unrewarding way to design a game. It was bad enough when they did it to keep people compulsively paying a sub fee. It’s even worse to demand it now that there is no sub fee. What on earth are you guys thinking?

It’s understandable, but obviously your definition of “grind” is one of the two that differs from mine. What I meant by grinding is just repeating the same set of actions mechanically in terms of gameplay. Such as clusterkitten Orr, or pre-nerf CoF speedclear. People may or may not like it. People may still do it even if they don’t like it for the sake of the rewards. People may do it maybe because they like it.

Why do you feel it’s “toxic and silly” to expect MMO that provide us with endless progression? Why do you feel anything from a game is “oppressive, life devouring”? It’s understandable that you don’t want to grind, but statement like that only seem to put yourself in the seat of a self-victimized addict to video games that should probably seek professional help.

Cerise.9045:

Wasn’t guild wars 2 supposed to break this curse? GW1 did, and GW2 was on track to doing so until they systematically eliminated all conventional methods to get crafting materials and/or money to get basic gear in a reasonable amount of time.

Define “basic gear” and “reasonable”? I had full rares 5 minutes after hitting 80, at the whopping cost of 1.5 gold for some extra mats I needed to craft them.

I won’t deny that there are some atrocious (and baffling) grinds in the game, but they’re all for cosmetic items, so they’re fairly irrelevant from a balance perspective. It’s more of a “why would anyone ever want to do that” situation.

Lot of the nay-sayers (rather use that word instead of the unfounded “haters” and the like) still focus on a mere number to get their sense of end-game.

Ubung.7423:

I like this idea to be honest but Im still a firm advocate of larger dungeon groups. For one reason they are something I can schedule as a guild leader myself.

In a perfect world id be able to organise a weekly event where my guild participated in the 10 / 20 man dungeons, a time where challenge and coordination are supreme.

Then on other nights organise an exploration party where we all just start somewhere and make our way through the dynamic events. See where you get lucky with some large, cool bosses. A more relaxed affair where we just play the game.

Ah, I’m opposed to instances in all their forms. I think the world as a whole should be actively working together to overcome the current threat to the world, not shuffling off into their own private corners of the world only to emerge when it comes to show off their new shinies in towns. If you’re a great guild, I want to be there to witness and help you take down the threat, not just see your new armor.

kgptzac.8419:

It’s understandable, but obviously your definition of “grind” is one of the two that differs from mine. What I meant by grinding is just repeating the same set of actions mechanically in terms of gameplay. Such as clusterkitten Orr, or pre-nerf CoF speedclear. People may or may not like it. People may still do it even if they don’t like it for the sake of the rewards. People may do it maybe because they like it.

Why do you feel it’s “toxic and silly” to expect MMO that provide us with endless progression? Why do you feel anything from a game is “oppressive, life devouring”? It’s understandable that you don’t want to grind, but statement like that only seem to put yourself in the seat of a self-victimized addict to video games that should probably seek professional help.

Oh please. Please.

If I’m playing games in a multiplayer environment, it’s because I want to cooperate or compete with other players. In order to do that, a level playing field has to be established. Because a non-level playing field is, frankly, rubbish. Imagine a game of Starcraft where you leveled up your zerglings so they could one shot enemy units. No one would stand for it, and rightly so. Or how about a game of Chess where my level 80 Pawn can move 5 squares instead of just one. Fun stuff.

Unfortunately, this creates a perpetual state of “Keeping Up With Jones”, and “Jones” is always the guy with the least impulse control and the most time. If you don’t keep up with Jones, then you are meat for Jones in PvP, and if you game centers around raids and infinite progression, more and more development resources need to be funneled into providing Jones with content you will never see.

It’s terrible game design. I push a button, and numbers go up. I push it again, and numbers go up again. Whee!

You can certainly make the argument that people like it. Some people like consensual torture, for heavens sake. You can find an audience for anything. You cannot, however, make a cogent argument that it is an essential element of game design.

SirMoogie.9263:

Ubung.7423:

I like this idea to be honest but Im still a firm advocate of larger dungeon groups. For one reason they are something I can schedule as a guild leader myself.

In a perfect world id be able to organise a weekly event where my guild participated in the 10 / 20 man dungeons, a time where challenge and coordination are supreme.

Then on other nights organise an exploration party where we all just start somewhere and make our way through the dynamic events. See where you get lucky with some large, cool bosses. A more relaxed affair where we just play the game.

Ah, I’m opposed to instances in all their forms. I think the world as a whole should be actively working together to overcome the current threat to the world, not shuffling off into their own private corners of the world only to emerge when it comes to show off their new shinies in towns. If you’re a great guild, I want to be there to witness and help you take down the threat, not just see your new armor.

But its already in the game for people who do like that sort of thing. So we might as well open it up to larger groups of people. As long as it doesnt become the focus of the game I cant see how people would not deem that acceptable.

Remember this would bring more people into the game and keep some that would leave. Meaning more money spent in the cash shop and more to spend on developing new content.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Zhaneel.9208:

As a Guild Wars 1 fan, I’ve never been a proponent of the mentality a lot of traditional MMO players have. Endless content that is created as soon as the hardcore grinder demands it, simply isn’t possible to do unless you have a company with endless resources. And the only MMO company who has those kinds of resources is Blizzard.(arguably EA does as well, but with SWTOR in decline I don’t think they’re a great example to use)

Anet as fantastic of a company as you are, you are going to have a long, tiresome road ahead of you if you still intend to ‘revolutionize’ the MMO genre. Because here, especially for the players, change comes slowly, if at all. That’s why you will continue to see so many conflicting ideas about what a ‘good grind’ is.

That being said, I love what GW2 is for the most part, though they are still trying to work the kinks out, I’m am just as engrossed in the content as I ever hoped to be in the five years I’ve waited for this game to be released. I am currently at level 32 and the slower path has been the most rewarding one for me to take. For those of you who raced up to 80 and now are complaining about having so little to do at ‘end-game’ I have no sympathy for you. Content takes time to develop, and with most developers this means there will be a waiting period. So relax a bit, there will be more to do. Until then I suggest the following:

I bet many people with 100% map completion didn’t bother to talk to most of the NPC’s or take the time to explore all the fantastic little story and character details Anet wove into their game. They just looked for all the heart, vistas and point of interest objectives until their little yellow bar was maxed out. I spent several hours just exploring the main cities alone for all the little tidbits of info. they left nestled in there. And i still don’t feel like I’ve found everything there is to see in those locations.

Great post, man. Kudos for that. I’m in awe of well you captured my feelings.

I loved Star Wars Galaxies. So many of us did. When SOE created the dream team in 99-2000, to build this game, helmed by Ralph Koster, he got a lot of flack for one of his greatest design philosophies.

“Players make their own content” . Everquest was still the biggest thing, AC and DAOC were running well for the time.

His point was; no developer will ever be able to make meaningful content at the rate which hardcore players will not exhaust it and grow bored. Fighting over pvp objectives forever, or having a competitive capitalistic economy, which allows players to compete against each for control over and over, is creation of content. the trick is to make it meaningful and fun and not drawn out and repetitive.

It’s another reason why I look at GW2 with admiration.

Yeah nice post, Zhaneel. I agree with your point of view here.

SpectacularYak.6518:

Cerise.9045:

Wasn’t guild wars 2 supposed to break this curse? GW1 did, and GW2 was on track to doing so until they systematically eliminated all conventional methods to get crafting materials and/or money to get basic gear in a reasonable amount of time.

Define “basic gear” and “reasonable”? I had full rares 5 minutes after hitting 80, at the whopping cost of 1.5 gold for some extra mats I needed to craft them.

I won’t deny that there are some atrocious (and baffling) grinds in the game, but they’re all for cosmetic items, so they’re fairly irrelevant from a balance perspective. It’s more of a “why would anyone ever want to do that” situation.

Exotics have better stats than rares so they’re not cosmetic gear.

Right now a full set would cost around 50 gold which is about $220 in gems.

Jon Peters himself said dungeons are supposed to be one of the most efficient ways to get money. So if you found a way to make 50 gold with less of a time investment than running 500 dungeons you should probably report it as an exploit so that so they can fix it.

Ubung.7423:

But its already in the game for people who do like that sort of thing. So we might as well open it up to larger groups of people. As long as it doesnt become the focus of the game I cant see how people would not deem that acceptable.

That depends on what you mean by focus. I’m not opposed to doing instances, I just don’t like the mentality that we have to have them in MMOs. I see MMOs more as a large community game, than a LAN game. My largest gripe is that developers shove their story content and challenging encounters into the instances, making them requirements to enjoy the story/game. This happened with WoW where only the large guilds got to interact with the important story NPCs and have more interesting encounters.

GW 2 has done away with much that ruins having open-world content and has created a good vehicle through dynamic events for delivering open world content. So, I see it as the perfect game to bring the challenges typically reserved for instances raids of to the world.

SirMoogie.9263:

Ubung.7423:

But its already in the game for people who do like that sort of thing. So we might as well open it up to larger groups of people. As long as it doesnt become the focus of the game I cant see how people would not deem that acceptable.

That depends on what you mean by focus. I’m not opposed to doing instances, I just don’t like the mentality that we have to have them in MMOs. I see MMOs more as a large community game, than a LAN game. My largest gripe is that developers shove their story content and challenging encounters into the instances, making them requirements to enjoy the story/game. This happened with WoW where only the large guilds got to interact with the important story NPCs and have more interesting encounters.

GW 2 has done away with much that ruins having open-world content and has created a good vehicle through dynamic events for delivering open world content. So, I see it as the perfect game to bring the challenges typically reserved for instances raids of to the world.

I dont know if you can bring that kind of difficulty to the open world. The very nature of being accepting to anyone neccessitates a lower difficulty so anyone can join in.

In there own endgame statement they specifically said “For people who love structured and difficult content, we developed the explorable mode for our eight dungeons.”

“For people who enjoy massive encounters where large numbers of players band together to take down epic monsters, we created our giant bosses, which are scattered throughout the world.”

Notice how they didnt mention difficult in that last part. The best they say in that paragraph is that it will be challenging which is pretty subjective.

Cerise.9045:

Exotics have better stats than rares so they’re not cosmetic gear.

Right now a full set would cost around 50 gold which is about $220 in gems.

Jon Peters himself said dungeons are supposed to be one of the most efficient ways to get money. So if you found a way to make 50 gold with less of a time investment than running 500 dungeons you should probably report it as an exploit so that so they can fix it.

I’m aware that exotics have better stats than rares. I have about 1/3rd of the globes I need for my crafted exotics, but I’m short on the raw materials. I could buy the rest, but it would probably cost 5-10 gold, and I’ve only got about 2 at the moment. I average about 1 to 1.5 gold per evening, but I only play around 2-3 hours on week nights.

I’ve only been 80 since last Saturday.

There’s definitely a little hill to climb as far as exotics go, but it’s not nearly as ridiculous as you’re painting it. I guess if you absolutely cannot stand the crafted exotics for whatever reason then yeah, you’ve definitely got a longer road ahead of you.

I played GW2 for thousands of hours, gold cape rank, high rank PvP player, completed all the PvE ( except for the grind titles ). I for one was extremely excited for GW2, until I played the beta. From worse to worse, ArenaNet sadly catered more towards the regular MMO crowd than GW1’s fanbase. Turning a unique game into a generic mmo is a revolution of it’s own I guess.

Here is what is wrong and right with the end-game:

- Guild Wars 1 gave PvE players a fun, unique and compelling story with many hand-crafted missions. The end-game areas were not grindy, but very large, challenging and rich in content. Constantly coming up with new strategies for hard areas such as DoA and UW were what kept me playing. The game is fun because the game is well designed. It must offer the player the room to use their creativity and their mind to find solutions to challanges. To offer this environment you need both a large selection in skills and possibilities ( like second profession ) and a large, varied environment with plenty of content.

- Guild Wars 1 gave PvP players many modes ranging from casual PvP, tournament PvP, huge alliance battles, guild wars, etc. No matter what mode you played, personal skill and team composition was always most important. Battles were clearly defined and strategical, no second chances. PvP needs to be a match of skill, designed like a sport. It shouldn’t be focussed solely around attrition and there should be plenty of room to make your own strategy. Guild Wars 1 proved to be exactly that, creativity is fun and rewarding!

- Guild Wars 2 gave PvE players a mediocre, generic story. Not really sure what the writers were thinking, especially with your ‘hero’ constantly shouting that he or she is the best. Emberassing to say the least. Story is short and not really memorable, dungeons are half the size of regular instanced but packed with tanky trash mobs. Designed as if it were a generic Korean MMO. Mobs do not need a million health to be challenging, what instances need is to be well designed. Adding extra filler is no excuse for imcompetence. Allowing corpse running does not make a dungeon fun. Bosses with billions of health who just auto-attack and use one skill does not make a dungeon fun.

- Guild Wars 2 gave PvP players a slap in the face. Not only is the actual Guild Wars missing ( seriously? ) but any form of tournament is missing aswell. WvW while fun, is in the end one giant zergfest. sPvP is just another excuse for casualizing the PvP scene into a place of forgiveness and equalization. Strategical depth is completely missing from PvP, what was once one of the most tactical MMO games has now turned into a generic hack & slasher. Zerg modes may gratify, but they are not made to last. Modes where you constantly respawn are not made to last. A real competitive PvP mode with high risk and skill requirements is missing. Creativity and mind-combat is barely possible due to highly restricted skill bar. All the hundreds of hexes, enchantments, shouts, zeals, boons, wells and auras were turned into a few generic ‘boons’ and ‘conditions’, pretty much kills half of the complexity and fun towards making up your Guild’s very own strategy.

SpectacularYak.6518:

Cerise.9045:

Exotics have better stats than rares so they’re not cosmetic gear.

Right now a full set would cost around 50 gold which is about $220 in gems.

Jon Peters himself said dungeons are supposed to be one of the most efficient ways to get money. So if you found a way to make 50 gold with less of a time investment than running 500 dungeons you should probably report it as an exploit so that so they can fix it.

I’m aware that exotics have better stats than rares. I have about 1/3rd of the globes I need for my crafted exotics, but I’m short on the raw materials. I could buy the rest, but it would probably cost 5-10 gold, and I’ve only got about 2 at the moment. I average about 1 to 1.5 gold per evening, but I only play around 2-3 hours on week nights.

I’ve only been 80 since last Saturday.

There’s definitely a little hill to climb as far as exotics go, but it’s not nearly as ridiculous as you’re painting it. I guess if you absolutely cannot stand the crafted exotics for whatever reason then yeah, you’ve definitely got a longer road ahead of you.

I got my main geared before ArenaNet decided making money by playing the game is bad. Right now I’m just trying to get my alt set up with basic gear but it’s almost hopeless.

If you have some amazing way to farm money that is more efficient than than dungeons, which again are supposed to be one of the best ways to get money according to Jon peters, please share it.

Ubung.7423:

I dont know if you can bring that kind of difficulty to the open world. The very nature of being accepting to anyone neccessitates a lower difficulty so anyone can join in.

I’m not so sure it does, unless the entire world in question is devoid of groups of skilled players willing to do the open content. Additional players, regardless of skill, will aid that content, or in the worst case scenario do nothing at all. I don’t think there are many cases where they could make it more difficult, unless they are specifically assigned some task for the encounter that they perform badly at. In that case I think the blame falls on both parties, the one that delegated responsibility to the player unskilled at that task and the player. They can of course assign themselves to a task, say using an environmental weapon in limited supply and misuse it. In that case it’s up to the community to instruct (patiently at first), or report the player for trolling the encounter if their behavior continues and they refuse to relinquish control.

Regardless, so long as there are dedicated guilds, perhaps one like your own, doing these challenging open world events, then there is no need to worry about players who do not have the skills to do the encounter as they have stronger players in their world’s community as support.

Cerise.9045:

I got my main geared before ArenaNet decided making money by playing the game is bad. Right now I’m just trying to get my alt set up with basic gear but it’s almost hopeless.

If you have some amazing way to farm money that is more efficient than than dungeons, which again are supposed to be one of the best ways to get money according to Jon peters, please share it.

Oh god, I wouldn’t say I’m a prodigy when it comes to making money. I just kind of muck about with magic find food and money accrues. Do I make money at a breathtaking pace? Certainly not! Do I make enough money that getting a set of crafted exotics is pretty easily achievable? Yep.

SirMoogie.9263:

Ubung.7423:

I dont know if you can bring that kind of difficulty to the open world. The very nature of being accepting to anyone neccessitates a lower difficulty so anyone can join in.

I’m not so sure it does, unless the entire world in question is devoid of groups of skilled players willing to do the open content. Additional players, regardless of skill, will aid that content, or in the worst case scenario do nothing at all. I don’t think there are many cases where they could make it more difficult, unless they are specifically assigned some task for the encounter that they perform badly at. In that case I think the blame falls on both parties, the one that delegated responsibility to the player unskilled at that task and the player. They can of course assign themselves to a task, say using an environmental weapon in limited supply and misuse it. In that case it’s up to the community to instruct (patiently at first), or report the player for trolling the encounter if their behavior continues and they refuse to relinquish control.

Regardless, so long as there are dedicated guilds, perhaps one like your own, doing these challenging open world events, then there is no need to worry about players who do not have the skills to do the encounter as they have stronger players in their world’s community as support.

I honestly do see your point and in a perfect world it would be great. However im still not convinced. If a DE scales properly then how can a person who is not doing well actually benefit that group or even just not affect it. The boss would have gotten harder but the person who came would not add to the groups success making it harder than it should be.

In this scenario the difficulty would be really hard at a base level so the challenge quickly turns to impossible.

Suggestion;

If both Exotics are too difficult to work towards, and dungeon armors are too time consuming, maybe we are looking at two solutions;

- Karma Based armor sets with comparable stats.
- A sort of half tier with near identical stats. Perhaps with 3-5% decrease for half the effort. This would make people able to go half way towards the dungeon armors/exotics, and get almost comparable stats. Those that want that extra 1% edge, can do twice the effort.

Most people might go for half the effort, but at least that would ensure that dungeon and exotic sets remain; rare and exclusive which is the point.

We all know what happens when “welfare epics” start. It’s a cool part of MMOs to have exclusive looking items. However, it should be, even in unbalanced WvW by design, possible to get relatively comparable gear for not doing content (dungeon runs) or insane grindy money gathering.

Why not use the Karma? Or reward people for doing / succesfully doing every event in the game. Not hearts, but all events. With all those triggers, that would be a monumental and non-repetitive challenge. Not only would the player have to find every event, but also get gold and win the event, and the entire event chain, but also be equipped when they just pop out of thin air at random times. That would take some skill, and some required planning.
It would be traveling to all sorts of zones to do everything.

Sad sword fish can never understand he is a casual. Nothing wrong with that. He has a single player mentality. And obviously knows zero of MMO’s. Good read though,. Got a nice laugh and figured out how Anet got their warped end game idea.