Guild Wars 2

Hey this is my first post on the forums and it’s for an issue that’s bugged for a long time now.

The main complaint about guild wars 2’s “failure”. Is it’s lack of endgame content.

I’d like to ask the question, what is endgame content. I believe gw2 has the most satisfying endgame content I’ve seen. Most other games have grinds endgame content, I.e. Getting mounts, raids etc.

Why are these supposedly better than gw2? We have tried to stray away from all grind and we are punished for it. After the community begged for endgame content a slight gear grind was released, yet there was huge backlash against it. If you want to grind for cosmetics, there are dungeons and minis to collect. If you want pvp content there are tons of it?

What do you want?

Arunisroon.7580:

Hey this is my first post on the forums and it’s for an issue that’s bugged for a long time now.

The main complaint about guild wars 2’s “failure”. Is it’s lack of endgame content.

I’d like to ask the question, what is endgame content. I believe gw2 has the most satisfying endgame content I’ve seen. Most other games have grinds endgame content, I.e. Getting mounts, raids etc.

Why are these supposedly better than gw2? We have tried to stray away from all grind and we are punished for it. After the community begged for endgame content a slight gear grind was released, yet there was huge backlash against it. If you want to grind for cosmetics, there are dungeons and minis to collect. If you want pvp content there are tons of it?

What do you want?

to me, endgame doesnt mean grind, it means a set of goals and things to achieve while playing at a high level. however people want to be rewarded for it. What that reward should be is debateable.

For example, in WoW people say the end game is chasing a carrot, but thats not really true, the carrot, is merely the guide, the endgame is a series of progressively harder dungeons. Essentially they use the carrot to incentivize you to do the classic beat a level and go to the next one game mechanic, which i honestly never had a problem with (main issue if the number of times you may have to beat the same level to proceed)

The point is, GW2 has few real goals/systems in place to encourage people to play once they have all their skills, and favorite builds, there are few challenges, and goals at that point.
mostly its FOTM, Arah path and… as far as goals, its legendary.

phys.7689:

Arunisroon.7580:

Hey this is my first post on the forums and it’s for an issue that’s bugged for a long time now.

The main complaint about guild wars 2’s “failure”. Is it’s lack of endgame content.

I’d like to ask the question, what is endgame content. I believe gw2 has the most satisfying endgame content I’ve seen. Most other games have grinds endgame content, I.e. Getting mounts, raids etc.

Why are these supposedly better than gw2? We have tried to stray away from all grind and we are punished for it. After the community begged for endgame content a slight gear grind was released, yet there was huge backlash against it. If you want to grind for cosmetics, there are dungeons and minis to collect. If you want pvp content there are tons of it?

What do you want?

to me, endgame doesnt mean grind, it means a set of goals and things to achieve while playing at a high level. however people want to be rewarded for it. What that reward should be is debateable.

For example, in WoW people say the end game is chasing a carrot, but thats not really true, the carrot, is merely the guide, the endgame is a series of progressively harder dungeons. Essentially they use the carrot to incentivize you to do the classic beat a level and go to the next one game mechanic, which i honestly never had a problem with (main issue if the number of times you may have to beat the same level to proceed)

The point is, GW2 has few real goals/systems in place to encourage people to play once they have all their skills, and favorite builds, there are few challenges, and goals at that point.
mostly its FOTM, Arah path and… as far as goals, its legendary.

That endgame of harder dungeons sound like fractals to me. I just can’t see what we are missing besides grind :/

GW2 “endgame” is essentially a giant gold farming contest.

Gold gets you nearly everything you want and in order to get something you want, you need to farm it. And since you can’t actively farm specific mats or items you just farm “gold”.

That’s why thousands of people train the mega-events all day. For loot/gold. Or do you think people really find it “fun” to auto-attack bosses to death while on their desktop?

other MMORPG have an endgame with a meaningful goal (progression) and a directional grind. GW2 has no meaningful goals and an undirectional grind. I leave it to you what you prefer personally.

Arunisroon.7580:

phys.7689:

Arunisroon.7580:

Hey this is my first post on the forums and it’s for an issue that’s bugged for a long time now.

The main complaint about guild wars 2’s “failure”. Is it’s lack of endgame content.

I’d like to ask the question, what is endgame content. I believe gw2 has the most satisfying endgame content I’ve seen. Most other games have grinds endgame content, I.e. Getting mounts, raids etc.

Why are these supposedly better than gw2? We have tried to stray away from all grind and we are punished for it. After the community begged for endgame content a slight gear grind was released, yet there was huge backlash against it. If you want to grind for cosmetics, there are dungeons and minis to collect. If you want pvp content there are tons of it?

What do you want?

to me, endgame doesnt mean grind, it means a set of goals and things to achieve while playing at a high level. however people want to be rewarded for it. What that reward should be is debateable.

For example, in WoW people say the end game is chasing a carrot, but thats not really true, the carrot, is merely the guide, the endgame is a series of progressively harder dungeons. Essentially they use the carrot to incentivize you to do the classic beat a level and go to the next one game mechanic, which i honestly never had a problem with (main issue if the number of times you may have to beat the same level to proceed)

The point is, GW2 has few real goals/systems in place to encourage people to play once they have all their skills, and favorite builds, there are few challenges, and goals at that point.
mostly its FOTM, Arah path and… as far as goals, its legendary.

That endgame of harder dungeons sound like fractals to me. I just can’t see what we are missing besides grind :/

fractals is pretty small, and the grind is actually higher than WoW type games to get something. Also current data shows getting further gives you no higher rewards.

fractals are cool, but as a total endgame it doesnt have enough. Its basically equivalent to 12 mini dungeons and 3 bosses. comparing it to other games, or even gw2 dungeons, its probably equal to 2-3 regular dungeons. Also there is not a strong progression. If they had certain fractals that you only see at higher levels, there would be that feeling of achievement, exploration, and wonder when you get deeper in, but there is very little of that currently.

but its not just about dungeons, its about any type of goals, and gameplay that encourages mastery.
what do people do when they reach 80 in GW2? they kill easy things over and over, to get gold. Thats what endgame is here. Kill easy stuff over and over, use 1 or 2 skills.

They could have endgame jump puzzle challenges, beat X jumping puzzle in X time, maybe special challenges, for better/unique rewards – shows mastery of jump puzzles

exploration challenges, Get each of these places within this time, every enemy you kill or chest you get along the way extends your time, if you make it to final place spawn a rare enemy.

lore challenges, find hidden places/npcs, successfully answer their questions/riddles to unlock new lore, and lore related contents.

Survival challenges, how many enemies can you kill before being killed

point is, game needs more to do than kill easy enemies over and over with 2 buttons as the main activity post 79

WTF grind what i love raids not the gear grind but just doing them hard bosses and to have cool moments in this fights but honestly whit no holy trinity that fun is no more doge and dps here all the time

IMO the problems with endgame have stemmed from the fact that the game’s been out for a while without much in the ways of an expansion. LS and the permanent content we got with it was nice but no MMO can truly thrive without a right and true expansion. It followed a similar path in GW1 – but they didn’t have to wait 22+ months for the next expansion, Factions was released not too long after Prophecies.

I very rarely say this but in this particular case, if you don’t like the way the endgame plays out, then this game just isn’t for you sadly.

Anet has always said, even before launch, that the endgame starts at level 1. There is no ‘endgame’, just ‘the game’. The whole game is the endgame, what you want to do is up to you, and you set goals for yourself, the game doesn’t do that for you.

It’s like asking what the endgame in Skyrim was.

Whether goals are ‘meaningful’ is a very subjective thing. For example, on TSW, my guild leader played the game since launch, and he has never sat foot in a single dungeon, and is still geared with what’s basically that game’s equivalent of greens. Was he wasting his time? Who’s me or you to judge that.

Personally, a game is meaningful as long as you are having fun. Anet has stated that this is the way the game works, its very open, its super casual, and the endgame is just doing whatever you want. Well, if you don’t like that, then, I guess its just not the game for you :L

The MMO market is full to the brim with games where you get pulled around on a leash and where most of the content is irrelevant after level cap, can’t we just have 1 game where you can do what you want, instead of the game nudging you constantly towards a goal it set for you?

Xae Isareth.1364:

I very rarely say this but in this particular case, if you don’t like the way the endgame plays out, then this game just isn’t for you sadly.

Anet has always said, even before launch, that the endgame starts at level 1. There is no ‘endgame’, just ‘the game’. The whole game is the endgame, what you want to do is up to you, and you set goals for yourself, the game doesn’t do that for you.

It’s like asking what the endgame in Skyrim was.

Whether goals are ‘meaningful’ is a very subjective thing. For example, on TSW, my guild leader played the game since launch, and he has never sat foot in a single dungeon, and is still geared with what’s basically that game’s equivalent of greens. Was he wasting his time? Who’s me or you to judge that.

Personally, a game is meaningful as long as you are having fun. Anet has stated that this is the way the game works, its very open, its super casual, and the endgame is just doing whatever you want. Well, if you don’t like that, then, I guess its just not the game for you :L

The MMO market is full to the brim with games where you get pulled around on a leash and where most of the content is irrelevant after level cap, can’t we just have 1 game where you can do what you want, instead of the game nudging you constantly towards a goal it set for you?

you can do whatever you want, you just get way less out of it. You could do a jumping puzzle, but you will get less than if you kill level 10 monsters in queensdale.

you could do a fractal, but your time is better spent following an ustoppable zerg in EOTM.

So really you are incorrect, you cant do anything you want, most things dont pay, the harder things pay even less.

But even regardless of paying well, they dont even have the type of content im talking about at all. Whether it pays well or not, there really isnt much content at all that requires any mastery at all in PVE.

Now hey, if thats the path they go, and thats what everyone wants thats fine, i will play less, but no big deal, i am only one dude. But the thread is asking what people want from endgame, so ill tell him what im looking for

Arunisroon.7580:

phys.7689:

Arunisroon.7580:

Hey this is my first post on the forums and it’s for an issue that’s bugged for a long time now.

The main complaint about guild wars 2’s “failure”. Is it’s lack of endgame content.

I’d like to ask the question, what is endgame content. I believe gw2 has the most satisfying endgame content I’ve seen. Most other games have grinds endgame content, I.e. Getting mounts, raids etc.

Why are these supposedly better than gw2? We have tried to stray away from all grind and we are punished for it. After the community begged for endgame content a slight gear grind was released, yet there was huge backlash against it. If you want to grind for cosmetics, there are dungeons and minis to collect. If you want pvp content there are tons of it?

What do you want?

to me, endgame doesnt mean grind, it means a set of goals and things to achieve while playing at a high level. however people want to be rewarded for it. What that reward should be is debateable.

For example, in WoW people say the end game is chasing a carrot, but thats not really true, the carrot, is merely the guide, the endgame is a series of progressively harder dungeons. Essentially they use the carrot to incentivize you to do the classic beat a level and go to the next one game mechanic, which i honestly never had a problem with (main issue if the number of times you may have to beat the same level to proceed)

The point is, GW2 has few real goals/systems in place to encourage people to play once they have all their skills, and favorite builds, there are few challenges, and goals at that point.
mostly its FOTM, Arah path and… as far as goals, its legendary.

That endgame of harder dungeons sound like fractals to me. I just can’t see what we are missing besides grind :/

The problem with fractals is that there isn’t enough variety (honestly even as you progress up the difficulty ladder, it’s just the inclusion of some new mechanics), and the current way progression is handled is more than a little boring.

It’s a little dissapointing that the main barrier to the so called “high end – endgame” – meaning fractals of high level, is an arbitrary delimiter like agony resist, and not something that is based on actual skill.

The poster directly above me also has a good point : for the 30-45 minutes i put into a high level fractal, i can make more money and loot putting the same time into EOTM, queensdale, or frostgorge.

I already have a bucket of ascended rings i can’t use, and the other ascended gear drops rarely enough that it is faster and easier to simply craft what i want rather than wait for it to drop.

That’s the problem with calling fractals endgame.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I very rarely say this but in this particular case, if you don’t like the way the endgame plays out, then this game just isn’t for you sadly.

Anet has always said, even before launch, that the endgame starts at level 1. There is no ‘endgame’, just ‘the game’. The whole game is the endgame, what you want to do is up to you, and you set goals for yourself, the game doesn’t do that for you.

It’s like asking what the endgame in Skyrim was.

Whether goals are ‘meaningful’ is a very subjective thing. For example, on TSW, my guild leader played the game since launch, and he has never sat foot in a single dungeon, and is still geared with what’s basically that game’s equivalent of greens. Was he wasting his time? Who’s me or you to judge that.

Personally, a game is meaningful as long as you are having fun. Anet has stated that this is the way the game works, its very open, its super casual, and the endgame is just doing whatever you want. Well, if you don’t like that, then, I guess its just not the game for you :L

The MMO market is full to the brim with games where you get pulled around on a leash and where most of the content is irrelevant after level cap, can’t we just have 1 game where you can do what you want, instead of the game nudging you constantly towards a goal it set for you?

first of all, I don´t want GW2 to change, but point out the obvious observations. Whether that is ok for you or not is completely down to personal preferences. And indeed, though I enjoyed the game immensely for quite some time, I am already on my way out.

not sure, a GW2 scenario would work in a sandbox MMORPG that gave you a world where your actions would actually matter and options to define your own goals. But a theme park game without any incentive to do anything, I don´t know. There is a world of difference between being “on a leash” and having options to do something that will affect your game. GW2 is worse than this, you either are taunted by shinies you will only aquire by a mix of sheer luck and endless, repetitive, unexciting chores (and which will have barely any effect for you once acquired) or, if you are not into that, it offers nothing to do at all, save pvp and wvw as playing against other people is its own fun. MMORPG are just not good games when it comes to the pure joy of playing. Substandard graphics, substandard storytelling, substandard gameplay – compared to other types of games. That is not due to negligence, but various limiting factors that come with the genre. So the “just play for the playing” aspect simply doesn´t cut it for me.

wasting time – well, every game is wasting time. But knowing TSW myself, I cannot help but wonder what this guy is actually doing (and dungeons are certainly not endgame there, but are done at all stages of the game).

phys.7689:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I very rarely say this but in this particular case, if you don’t like the way the endgame plays out, then this game just isn’t for you sadly.

Anet has always said, even before launch, that the endgame starts at level 1. There is no ‘endgame’, just ‘the game’. The whole game is the endgame, what you want to do is up to you, and you set goals for yourself, the game doesn’t do that for you.

It’s like asking what the endgame in Skyrim was.

Whether goals are ‘meaningful’ is a very subjective thing. For example, on TSW, my guild leader played the game since launch, and he has never sat foot in a single dungeon, and is still geared with what’s basically that game’s equivalent of greens. Was he wasting his time? Who’s me or you to judge that.

Personally, a game is meaningful as long as you are having fun. Anet has stated that this is the way the game works, its very open, its super casual, and the endgame is just doing whatever you want. Well, if you don’t like that, then, I guess its just not the game for you :L

The MMO market is full to the brim with games where you get pulled around on a leash and where most of the content is irrelevant after level cap, can’t we just have 1 game where you can do what you want, instead of the game nudging you constantly towards a goal it set for you?

you can do whatever you want, you just get way less out of it. You could do a jumping puzzle, but you will get less than if you kill level 10 monsters in queensdale.

you could do a fractal, but your time is better spent following an ustoppable zerg in EOTM.

So really you are incorrect, you cant do anything you want, most things dont pay, the harder things pay even less.

But even regardless of paying well, they dont even have the type of content im talking about at all. Whether it pays well or not, there really isnt much content at all that requires any mastery at all in PVE.

Now hey, if thats the path they go, and thats what everyone wants thats fine, i will play less, but no big deal, i am only one dude. But the thread is asking what people want from endgame, so ill tell him what im looking for

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a MMO where all the rewards are balanced. Now I do agree that the rewards aren’t but I don’t think its an unique problem with the game, and its a work in progress for all MMOs.

If you look at jumping puzzles for example. The idea was that they gave you fragments as an alternative to dungeons. But of course, it turns out that those fragments were utterly worthless to most people so, the rewards turned out to be trash. The idea is there, but the the reality isn’t.

This is especially true when you put PvP into it. EotM, whether you can call it an exploit or not, is not working as intended. It wasn’t ever made to be a giant zerg farm, and the rewards were balanced to be around people actually fighting each other.

(Off on a tangent, personally, it’s why I still think PvP shouldn’t have PvE-associated rewards tied with it. Players were asking for it, for WvW to be more rewarding. Then the devs were like, ok, we’ll make it more rewarding, then before you know it, it was being exploited the heck out of.)

Also, it really depends on what you want in terms of rewards. Take your fractal vs EotM for example. I’m making Frostfang at the moment, I need Obsidian Shards and ectos. 1 level 37 FotM run nets me about 12k karma (with a 15% karma infusion), enough relics to buy 10 shards (converting the pristine), and about 5-8 rares on average, takes my guild a hour to beat. That’s a lot more than I can get running around EotM for a hour.

On your final point. The problem with ‘mastery’ is thats a very subjective thing. What one person finds hard is what another considers a joke. I want raids as well, but I can understand why it isn’t there. The game is sold to casuals and more importantly, people who don’t normally like MMOs, and you make content for who selling it to.

Wildstar sells to the hardcores, so its focused on raids and hardcore stuff as a main priority. GW2 sells to casuals, so it focuses on stuff casuals would like as a main priority.

I think the TBC raid population of WoW was, what 5% of the total player population? That was back in the day when MMOs was hardcore and had a very focused gamer group playing them. So you can imagine what the raid coverage in this game would be like. Most people can’t even handle Tequatl or FotM, so if you wanna make stuff even harder than that, you’re basically making content for a non-existent population.

There is an endgame in GW2. It’s updated almost every 2 weeks with something ‘new and exciting’. True that it’s not very hard but the rewards that you get from it might not be worth that £10 price tag.

No one here can say ANet doesn’t put in hours to keep that endgame stocked and updated. The driving force behind the game: swiping your credit card. That’s your endgame, and that’s probably all we’ll get.

Dee Jay.2460:

GW2 “endgame” is essentially a giant gold farming contest.

Yep, it’s that and large scale PvP with forts and siege, running around in crazy little circles for PPT.

Algreg.3629:

other MMORPG have an endgame with a meaningful goal (progression) and a directional grind. GW2 has no meaningful goals and an undirectional grind. I leave it to you what you prefer personally.

Where is the real goal to chase a carrot on the stick, since you know that as soon as you have reached what you wanted the next goal is something that will invalidate what you have reached ?

Lets put it in simple numbers. You have a weapon that does 100 damage and you Boss has 100.000 Hitpoints, now after killing this boss 100 times you get the weapon that does 110 damage, so that you now can move on to Boss 2 that has 110,000 Hitpoints, and that will give you weapon 3 that makes 120 damage, so you can go for Boss 3 with 120.000 Hitpoints.

Whenever you have reached Boss 10 with 200.000 Hitpints to get the 210 damage weapon, you get a new expansion where the normal weapons from the NPCs already do 210 damage, but hey .. Boss 11 is new .. he gives 220 damage weapons.

Beldin.5498:

Algreg.3629:

other MMORPG have an endgame with a meaningful goal (progression) and a directional grind. GW2 has no meaningful goals and an undirectional grind. I leave it to you what you prefer personally.

Where is the real goal to chase a carrot on the stick, since you know that as soon as you have reached what you wanted the next goal is something that will invalidate what you have reached ?

Lets put it in simple numbers. You have a weapon that does 100 damage and you Boss has 100.000 Hitpoints, now after killing this boss 100 times you get the weapon that does 110 damage, so that you now can move on to Boss 2 that has 110,000 Hitpoints, and that will give you weapon 3 that makes 120 damage, so you can go for Boss 3 with 120.000 Hitpoints.

Whenever you have reached Boss 10 with 200.000 Hitpints to get the 210 damage weapon, you get a new expansion where the normal weapons from the NPCs already do 210 damage, but hey .. Boss 11 is new .. he gives 220 damage weapons.

well, that is neither new nor very shocking – it is quite common knowledge. Progression is an illusion in most games, it becomes obsolete as the challenges progress. But so are major aspects of movies, games, literature… The emotions they incite are the real thing. So yes, I am aware I will only get my +2 strength or whatever to progress to the next challenge, still, I “feel” progressing, having mastered a challenge.

Besides, you have in NO way touched upon the core of what I said regarding GW2´s grind.

Raiding could be a great thing here. No need to worry about the gear treadmill. Unique drops are less important if there is some general token system that allows one to acquire a whole range of goodies/materials/whatever. Fractals are fun and can be quite challenging, but those are no raid. 10-30 man instanced dungeons (or an instanced encounter with a single boss, like onyxia or magtheridon) is where it’s at. They would sure beat the heck out of taco and wurm, which are just plain old bizarre (and partially a dice roll, unless you manually field the team).

But it won’t happen. Anet has a strange aversion to raiding, which is silly in light of the system they crafted – a system which lends itself nicely to raid encounters that are never out-geared, just “solved.”. Then again, 5 man dungeon parties shatter when the host bounces, so something would have to be done about that. Further, there would have to be hard and easy mode (at least). I don’t believe people should be denied the chance to see and complete the encounter. Easy mode should at least be (in time) puggable. But these are merely dreams. We’ll have to make do with copper crowns.

Algreg.3629:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I very rarely say this but in this particular case, if you don’t like the way the endgame plays out, then this game just isn’t for you sadly.

Anet has always said, even before launch, that the endgame starts at level 1. There is no ‘endgame’, just ‘the game’. The whole game is the endgame, what you want to do is up to you, and you set goals for yourself, the game doesn’t do that for you.

It’s like asking what the endgame in Skyrim was.

Whether goals are ‘meaningful’ is a very subjective thing. For example, on TSW, my guild leader played the game since launch, and he has never sat foot in a single dungeon, and is still geared with what’s basically that game’s equivalent of greens. Was he wasting his time? Who’s me or you to judge that.

Personally, a game is meaningful as long as you are having fun. Anet has stated that this is the way the game works, its very open, its super casual, and the endgame is just doing whatever you want. Well, if you don’t like that, then, I guess its just not the game for you :L

The MMO market is full to the brim with games where you get pulled around on a leash and where most of the content is irrelevant after level cap, can’t we just have 1 game where you can do what you want, instead of the game nudging you constantly towards a goal it set for you?

first of all, I don´t want GW2 to change, but point out the obvious observations. Whether that is ok for you or not is completely down to personal preferences. And indeed, though I enjoyed the game immensely for quite some time, I am already on my way out.

not sure, a GW2 scenario would work in a sandbox MMORPG that gave you a world where your actions would actually matter and options to define your own goals. But a theme park game without any incentive to do anything, I don´t know. There is a world of difference between being “on a leash” and having options to do something that will affect your game. GW2 is worse than this, you either are taunted by shinies you will only aquire by a mix of sheer luck and endless, repetitive, unexciting chores (and which will have barely any effect for you once acquired) or, if you are not into that, it offers nothing to do at all, save pvp and wvw as playing against other people is its own fun. MMORPG are just not good games when it comes to the pure joy of playing. Substandard graphics, substandard storytelling, substandard gameplay – compared to other types of games. That is not due to negligence, but various limiting factors that come with the genre. So the “just play for the playing” aspect simply doesn´t cut it for me.

wasting time – well, every game is wasting time. But knowing TSW myself, I cannot help but wonder what this guy is actually doing (and dungeons are certainly not endgame there, but are done at all stages of the game).

To me, GW2 is like Skyrim. If you were to ask me why I did anything on Skyrim or what my goals were, you won’t get a straight up answer. That’s what a sandbox element of a game does. A themepark game has very defined and clear goals, but any game with some sort of a sandbox element to them has those clear defined goals, but also has goals which aren’t perfectly describable or even physical, because they mirror real life.

On GW2, I don’t have a particular goal or any particular reason to do anything. What the game is for me is a second, fantasy life. I have goals like finishing Frostfang, getting my ele to 80, etc, but just like real life, they’re side mechanisms which drive an overall narrative. What GW2 offer me is a persisting, living world which I can immersively carry out that second life.

Just like in real life, you are taunted by shinies. Cars, good grades, good jobs, or whatever. Some of those are fun to achieve, some involve repetitive and mundane tasks, but they aren’t exactly the entire point of your existence.

On the subject of MMOs as a whole. It’s true that they often have substandard graphics (but I have to say that the artstyle of GW2 more than makes up for that) and substandard gameplay, but there’s one thing which massively compensates for that and allow you to be immersed often far more than a single player game: the world persists, it has other people in it, and it evolves. As good as Skyrim was, you know the developers aren’t going to keep making more DLCs, you know that you’re alone, and you know that it’s really a ‘dead’ world that will never change.

I do believe that GW2 has an excellent endgame content. For people who work, have families, are older and treat this game similar to watching a TV show and opportunity to talk with guildies on chat, doing something together. It’s were GW2 excells, Guild Missions, WvW, World Events, exploring, Jumping Puzzles. I won’t say “oh, people who have life!” because that’s not true. They’re not so excited about the game and content itself, moreabout having fun on TS and doing something as a group.

Guild Wars 2 has lots of people like that. Tons, way more (in %) than I’ve seen in other MMOs. They’re also present in World of Warcraft, because the game gets more and more fun and familiar for them.

But there’s also another group of players. I’m not talking about “nerds, geeks” sitting on the front of the screen all day long (although there’s some minority like that in every game ^^). More like players who just like games in general. This group is very, very strong in MMORPGs. And shouldn’t be ignored, because this community creates videos, talks about the game, points out issues and good things. The first group will be happy with any content or improvement really and if they get bored, they just switch the game. Second group is more loyal to the game, their characters, efforts and time spent so they’re more critic.

The place when these two group clash is Instanced PvE. Not PvP, the first group does that from time to time, but mostly with their friends and for pure TDM, not actual play and mode.

Instanced PvE is an obvious choice for both groups. The first one goes there in their free time to get some loot, see what’s there and play with guildies. The second does the same, but they are more into actual gameplay and expect it.

That’s where my proposal comes in (check signature) also. Some of the first group will just stop having fun when they can’t pass some zone in the dungeon, get frustrated and don’t adjust their gameplay, they don’t consider harder content as fun. The second group will pass through the easier content in no time and feel like they’ve wasted their time n doing something not providing any challange.

IMO, it’s hard for the developer, but doable. Despite the first group being a big part of the community, it’s not the entire community and proper MMO should adress all players.

I strongly hope that NCSoft’s plan wasn’t to just split the gamers and make GW2 “the casual” and Wildstar as “the hardcore”.

GW2 started with the very clear idea that endgame would consist of dungeons, large open world encounters, pursuit of a legendary (and later, Ascended), WvW and sPvP. These concepts did not weather contact well with a player-base that consisted of, if you’ll pardon the paraphrase, “People who love traditional MMO’s and people who hate traditional MMO’s.”

• Dungeons almost always seem to generate the feeling of “Too easy” or “Too hard” depending on who you talk to. Mob mechanics make for a punishing learning curve for average players, but are easy once certain tactics are known. Other games provide new instanced content on a semi-regular schedule, whether via updates or expansions. GW2 dungeon additions since launch consist of Fractals, three path revamps, a few temporary dungeons (some added to FotM) and one path replacement. These additions are fairly anemic for a 21 month period.

• ANet’s large encounters are “outside” rather than instanced. While they scratched the “raid” itch for some of the people who like raids, they don’t for others. Most of these encounters are trivialized by large numbers of players, a condition that seems to be occurring with greater frequency post-mega-server. Game infrastructure issues in the form of: difficulty getting into the same instanced “open world” area as friends; performance issues; and the massive particle blur mar these events for subsets of the population.

• ANet’s concept of “rewards” does not dovetail well with those of a lot of posters. There are very few desirable items that can be gotten from specific content. RNG rewards are mostly salvage fodder, with a huge amount of luck needed to get one of the few exceptions. There are way too few drops that generate the feeling that the human female character saying, “Sweet, sweet loot.” would seem to have experienced. I’m sorry, but getting three Bloodstone Dust does not constitute “Sweet, sweet loot.” The desirable items (legendaries and ascended) are mostly obtained by completing long checklists of tasks, which pleases some players but not others.

• WvW has been good for some players, bad for others. The herd element of WvW play can sometimes be epic, but more often than not numbers matter more than any other aspect of play. While this was both intended and inevitable, it is not for everyone.

• The issues with sPvP have been beaten to death. I’ll mention “game modes,” "GvG and “maps.”

Where ANet goes in future with these aspects of the game remains to be seen. However, I believe while they will continue to try to please as many as possible, pleasing various groups that all want different (and sometimes opposite) things is a daunting task.

Dee Jay.2460:

GW2 “endgame” is essentially a giant gold farming contest.

Gold gets you nearly everything you want and in order to get something you want, you need to farm it. And since you can’t actively farm specific mats or items you just farm “gold”.

That’s why thousands of people train the mega-events all day. For loot/gold. Or do you think people really find it “fun” to auto-attack bosses to death while on their desktop?

Hahaha, so true.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I very rarely say this but in this particular case, if you don’t like the way the endgame plays out, then this game just isn’t for you sadly.

Anet has always said, even before launch, that the endgame starts at level 1. There is no ‘endgame’, just ‘the game’. The whole game is the endgame, what you want to do is up to you, and you set goals for yourself, the game doesn’t do that for you.

It’s like asking what the endgame in Skyrim was.

Whether goals are ‘meaningful’ is a very subjective thing. For example, on TSW, my guild leader played the game since launch, and he has never sat foot in a single dungeon, and is still geared with what’s basically that game’s equivalent of greens. Was he wasting his time? Who’s me or you to judge that.

Personally, a game is meaningful as long as you are having fun. Anet has stated that this is the way the game works, its very open, its super casual, and the endgame is just doing whatever you want. Well, if you don’t like that, then, I guess its just not the game for you :L

The MMO market is full to the brim with games where you get pulled around on a leash and where most of the content is irrelevant after level cap, can’t we just have 1 game where you can do what you want, instead of the game nudging you constantly towards a goal it set for you?

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

GW2 is unique, has its own set of strengths and weaknesses, and it works for a particular sort of player. There are plenty of other games that have the other things people are looking for. Changing to match those other games would erase all reason to play _italic_GW2_italic_, rather than some other game. I don’t want all the MMOs to cater to the same, please-everyone demographic. I want them to be different, unique, so everyone can pick the game that suits them. I hope it continues to hold on to the differences that make it special. <3

Raeysa Penrose.8450:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I very rarely say this but in this particular case, if you don’t like the way the endgame plays out, then this game just isn’t for you sadly.

Anet has always said, even before launch, that the endgame starts at level 1. There is no ‘endgame’, just ‘the game’. The whole game is the endgame, what you want to do is up to you, and you set goals for yourself, the game doesn’t do that for you.

It’s like asking what the endgame in Skyrim was.

Whether goals are ‘meaningful’ is a very subjective thing. For example, on TSW, my guild leader played the game since launch, and he has never sat foot in a single dungeon, and is still geared with what’s basically that game’s equivalent of greens. Was he wasting his time? Who’s me or you to judge that.

Personally, a game is meaningful as long as you are having fun. Anet has stated that this is the way the game works, its very open, its super casual, and the endgame is just doing whatever you want. Well, if you don’t like that, then, I guess its just not the game for you :L

The MMO market is full to the brim with games where you get pulled around on a leash and where most of the content is irrelevant after level cap, can’t we just have 1 game where you can do what you want, instead of the game nudging you constantly towards a goal it set for you?

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

GW2 is unique, has its own set of strengths and weaknesses, and it works for a particular sort of player. There are plenty of other games that have the other things people are looking for. Changing to match those other games would erase all reason to play _italic_GW2_italic_, rather than some other game. I don’t want all the MMOs to cater to the same, please-everyone demographic. I want them to be different, unique, so everyone can pick the game that suits them. I hope it continues to hold on to the differences that make it special. <3

Anet already has strayed far from their initial vision of the game. Ascended was added because people complained there was no endgame progression, FotM has AR-locks because again, people wanted a quantifiable way to see their progression.

I can understand why, because they want to capture a wider market butI tend to think that if you made a product to be used in a particular way, then sledgehammer more features that obviously aren’t supposed to be there to reach a compromise, you get a mess at the end. That’s what Ascended stuff are, a tumor on GW2.

Corpus Christi.2057:

Dee Jay.2460:

GW2 “endgame” is essentially a giant gold farming contest.

Gold gets you nearly everything you want and in order to get something you want, you need to farm it. And since you can’t actively farm specific mats or items you just farm “gold”.

That’s why thousands of people train the mega-events all day. For loot/gold. Or do you think people really find it “fun” to auto-attack bosses to death while on their desktop?

Hahaha, so true.

The thing is, isn’t that true of all MMOs? Even the sandbox ones.

Gold is, and has to be, a valuable currency because otherwise it ends up being vanilla karma v2.0. So of course people will want it, and often in the quickest way possible.

If you allow people to farm for specific mats, would that really actually make any difference in the overall scheme of things?

Instead of: oh, I’ll farm EotM today, then I’ll farm Queensdale tomorrow, it’ll be oh, I’ll farm sparks today for charged stuff today, fire eles for molten stuff tomorrow. So instead of having freedom to farm what you want, you’ll be forced to farm a specific content.

(There’s also the argument that in a organised speedrun group, clearing dungeons is a much better way to get cash than k/ctrains, especially if you can do speed clears of Arah. I’ve also met a few players who claimed that they earn a fortune from speedclearing TA Aetherpath and selling the skin drops, splitting the cash.)

Skan.5301:

There is an endgame in GW2. It’s updated almost every 2 weeks with something ‘new and exciting’. True that it’s not very hard but the rewards that you get from it might not be worth that £10 price tag.

No one here can say ANet doesn’t put in hours to keep that endgame stocked and updated. The driving force behind the game: swiping your credit card. That’s your endgame, and that’s probably all we’ll get.

That hardly counts as end-game though, because if you miss out, you can’t ever have it. It’s like missing Wintersday, except instead of Wintersday, it’s the only progressive content in the game.

And what about times like now, when they’re too busy to put anything out for a month or longer? Just stop playing until they release something new, and stop playing again when you’re done with it? It’s a model, to be sure, but generally MMO’s don’t encourage you to play once every 2 weeks.

I think “Farmville” is a rather appropriate comparison; a fitting name for Queensdale even.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Corpus Christi.2057:

Dee Jay.2460:

GW2 “endgame” is essentially a giant gold farming contest.

Gold gets you nearly everything you want and in order to get something you want, you need to farm it. And since you can’t actively farm specific mats or items you just farm “gold”.

That’s why thousands of people train the mega-events all day. For loot/gold. Or do you think people really find it “fun” to auto-attack bosses to death while on their desktop?

Hahaha, so true.

The thing is, isn’t that true of all MMOs? Even the sandbox ones.

Gold is, and has to be, a valuable currency because otherwise it ends up being vanilla karma v2.0. So of course people will want it, and often in the quickest way possible.

If you allow people to farm for specific mats, would that really actually make any difference in the overall scheme of things?

Instead of: oh, I’ll farm EotM today, then I’ll farm Queensdale tomorrow, it’ll be oh, I’ll farm sparks today for charged stuff today, fire eles for molten stuff tomorrow. So instead of having freedom to farm what you want, you’ll be forced to farm a specific content.

(There’s also the argument that in a organised speedrun group, clearing dungeons is a much better way to get cash than k/ctrains, especially if you can do speed clears of Arah. I’ve also met a few players who claimed that they earn a fortune from speedclearing TA Aetherpath and selling the skin drops, splitting the cash.)

to some degree. Some things cannot be traded (a system I am not really a fan of). Most things can be farmed reliably. And the most important difference: A lot more rewards for harder tasks, also in currency (just look at QD vs Fractals, sigh, but it is ingrained in the game design for “casuals”).

Algreg.3629:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Corpus Christi.2057:

Dee Jay.2460:

GW2 “endgame” is essentially a giant gold farming contest.

Gold gets you nearly everything you want and in order to get something you want, you need to farm it. And since you can’t actively farm specific mats or items you just farm “gold”.

That’s why thousands of people train the mega-events all day. For loot/gold. Or do you think people really find it “fun” to auto-attack bosses to death while on their desktop?

Hahaha, so true.

The thing is, isn’t that true of all MMOs? Even the sandbox ones.

Gold is, and has to be, a valuable currency because otherwise it ends up being vanilla karma v2.0. So of course people will want it, and often in the quickest way possible.

If you allow people to farm for specific mats, would that really actually make any difference in the overall scheme of things?

Instead of: oh, I’ll farm EotM today, then I’ll farm Queensdale tomorrow, it’ll be oh, I’ll farm sparks today for charged stuff today, fire eles for molten stuff tomorrow. So instead of having freedom to farm what you want, you’ll be forced to farm a specific content.

(There’s also the argument that in a organised speedrun group, clearing dungeons is a much better way to get cash than k/ctrains, especially if you can do speed clears of Arah. I’ve also met a few players who claimed that they earn a fortune from speedclearing TA Aetherpath and selling the skin drops, splitting the cash.)

to some degree. Some things cannot be traded (a system I am not really a fan of). Most things can be farmed reliably. And the most important difference: A lot more rewards for harder tasks, also in currency (just look at QD vs Fractals, sigh, but it is ingrained in the game design for “casuals”).

I tend to think that you shouldn’t reward everything with just gold, or measure everything by gold/hour, because you’re never going to balance that.

What could happen is to give each activity its own unique reward, and let demand/supply take care of the rest. Some things need to be untradable to either keep the economy stable/avoid player stress from price turmoil, have them as a sense of achievement (e.g. SAB trib skins) or to give a bigger incentive to actually do the content.

I think Fractals at the start was pretty good. Want an ascended backpiece and rings? Go to fotm. It really needs a further stage of rewards to incentivise doing it. If we could buy ascended chests or fractal skins for example, would fix that problem.

(although as stated before, for things like obs shards, I still think fotm is the best place in the game to get them for an optimal party)

I don’t understand how a raid dungeon you can supposely do at most 4 times a month is called a grind. They are usually on a timer.

Some people call them a second job though.

So last night I participated in a Guild Bounty for the first time.

After doing so, I think I’ve discovered what endgame COULD be… all anet has to do is flesh Guild Bounties out a bit.

A series of tasks taking you across the world hunting down a bounty ( or series thereof). I grant – I haven’t thought through reward structure, storyline, or similar frameworks; but anet already has a model to build upon.

And they could be a mixture of levels – handful of vets in all of the surrounding maps that are conspiring against Queensdale merchants or 3 champs and 2 bounties that have been disrupting mining operations and supply lines from Dredgehaunt and the maps that surround it.

The possibilities are limited only by depth of storyline development and some coding to track progress.

laokoko.7403:

I don’t understand how a raid dungeon you can supposely do at most 4 times a month is called a grind. They are usually on a timer.

Some people call them a second job though.

It’s a grind because by the time you get the drops you want, you’re probably well bored of the content. It also forces you to put everything on hold to go raid with your guild (PUG raids…ewwwwwwwwwww), which is quite annoying.

Xae Isareth.1364:

laokoko.7403:

I don’t understand how a raid dungeon you can supposely do at most 4 times a month is called a grind. They are usually on a timer.

Some people call them a second job though.

It’s a grind because by the time you get the drops you want, you’re probably well bored of the content. It also forces you to put everything on hold to go raid with your guild (PUG raids…ewwwwwwwwwww), which is quite annoying.

you mean like the guy on the forum complaining he got jack from spending 200 hours doing wurm.

If you think people get bored of running things which have a 1 week timer, just imagine how many people are bored with GW2 now, since everything is on a 1 day timer.

I’m not saying you are wrong, I did quit raiding a few times in other games when I got bored. And I do agree about in raids you have to play on a schedule, and some times take too much time, like a second job.

laokoko.7403:

Xae Isareth.1364:

laokoko.7403:

I don’t understand how a raid dungeon you can supposely do at most 4 times a month is called a grind. They are usually on a timer.

Some people call them a second job though.

It’s a grind because by the time you get the drops you want, you’re probably well bored of the content. It also forces you to put everything on hold to go raid with your guild (PUG raids…ewwwwwwwwwww), which is quite annoying.

you mean like the guy on the forum complaining he got jack from spending 200 hours doing wurm.

If you think people get bored of running things which have a 1 week timer, just imagine how many people are bored with GW2 now, since everything is on a 1 day timer.

That’s why I don’t do Tequatl or Wurm for the rewards.

I never claimed Wurm or Teq wasn’t boring, I was just saying why raids, like grinding anything in MMOs, gets boring in the end.

Xae Isareth.1364:

laokoko.7403:

Xae Isareth.1364:

laokoko.7403:

I don’t understand how a raid dungeon you can supposely do at most 4 times a month is called a grind. They are usually on a timer.

Some people call them a second job though.

It’s a grind because by the time you get the drops you want, you’re probably well bored of the content. It also forces you to put everything on hold to go raid with your guild (PUG raids…ewwwwwwwwwww), which is quite annoying.

you mean like the guy on the forum complaining he got jack from spending 200 hours doing wurm.

If you think people get bored of running things which have a 1 week timer, just imagine how many people are bored with GW2 now, since everything is on a 1 day timer.

That’s why I don’t do Tequatl or Wurm for the rewards.

I never claimed Wurm or Teq wasn’t boring, I was just saying why raids, like grinding anything in MMOs, gets boring in the end.

ya it does. I mostly remember after a few month of raiding, I usually quit because I’m getting bored of it. And I only repeat it like 10 times after it is on farm status.

but it is the same in gw2, I dont’ know how many times I’ve run cof path 1, cliffside fractal etc.

i know many people play gw2 because they just can’t handle the raid schedule, since it is like a second job.

Pay to win.

You can buy almost anything

laokoko.7403:

Xae Isareth.1364:

laokoko.7403:

I don’t understand how a raid dungeon you can supposely do at most 4 times a month is called a grind. They are usually on a timer.

Some people call them a second job though.

It’s a grind because by the time you get the drops you want, you’re probably well bored of the content. It also forces you to put everything on hold to go raid with your guild (PUG raids…ewwwwwwwwwww), which is quite annoying.

you mean like the guy on the forum complaining he got jack from spending 200 hours doing wurm.

The good thing is that you here can totally ignore Tequatl and Wurm like i do, and i don’t miss anything.
Would i do that in other MMOs, like i did, i will always only have stuff that is maybe just 60% as good as what they have.

Beldin.5498:

laokoko.7403:

Xae Isareth.1364:

laokoko.7403:

I don’t understand how a raid dungeon you can supposely do at most 4 times a month is called a grind. They are usually on a timer.

Some people call them a second job though.

It’s a grind because by the time you get the drops you want, you’re probably well bored of the content. It also forces you to put everything on hold to go raid with your guild (PUG raids…ewwwwwwwwwww), which is quite annoying.

you mean like the guy on the forum complaining he got jack from spending 200 hours doing wurm.

The good thing is that you here can totally ignore Tequatl and Wurm like i do, and i don’t miss anything.
Would i do that in other MMOs, like i did, i will always only have stuff that is maybe just 60% as good as what they have.

The reality is if you dont’ do top tier content, you don’t need to get those gear anyway.

But I think people is too reward focus. Like the debate on the black lion forum on rewards and TP.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Raeysa Penrose.8450:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I very rarely say this but in this particular case, if you don’t like the way the endgame plays out, then this game just isn’t for you sadly.

Anet has always said, even before launch, that the endgame starts at level 1. There is no ‘endgame’, just ‘the game’. The whole game is the endgame, what you want to do is up to you, and you set goals for yourself, the game doesn’t do that for you.

It’s like asking what the endgame in Skyrim was.

Whether goals are ‘meaningful’ is a very subjective thing. For example, on TSW, my guild leader played the game since launch, and he has never sat foot in a single dungeon, and is still geared with what’s basically that game’s equivalent of greens. Was he wasting his time? Who’s me or you to judge that.

Personally, a game is meaningful as long as you are having fun. Anet has stated that this is the way the game works, its very open, its super casual, and the endgame is just doing whatever you want. Well, if you don’t like that, then, I guess its just not the game for you :L

The MMO market is full to the brim with games where you get pulled around on a leash and where most of the content is irrelevant after level cap, can’t we just have 1 game where you can do what you want, instead of the game nudging you constantly towards a goal it set for you?

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

GW2 is unique, has its own set of strengths and weaknesses, and it works for a particular sort of player. There are plenty of other games that have the other things people are looking for. Changing to match those other games would erase all reason to play _italic_GW2_italic_, rather than some other game. I don’t want all the MMOs to cater to the same, please-everyone demographic. I want them to be different, unique, so everyone can pick the game that suits them. I hope it continues to hold on to the differences that make it special. <3

Anet already has strayed far from their initial vision of the game. Ascended was added because people complained there was no endgame progression, FotM has AR-locks because again, people wanted a quantifiable way to see their progression.

I can understand why, because they want to capture a wider market butI tend to think that if you made a product to be used in a particular way, then sledgehammer more features that obviously aren’t supposed to be there to reach a compromise, you get a mess at the end. That’s what Ascended stuff are, a tumor on GW2.

I don’ t like the ascended stuff, but well. . . I feel like I can ignore them. My friends and I all pretty much do. We sort of half-heartedly shoot for legendaries but I guess it’s just not our focus.