I was just reading an interesting article about the psychological effects of windfalls, and thought it was an interesting commentary on the debates we have around here about who “deserves” Legendaries and other high-value items, and what is best for teh game as a whole. Here is an except:
“As expected, those who received transfers reported greater satisfaction with their lot after the money arrived. Cortisol levels and the incidence of depression fell too.
However, the satisfaction of those who did not receive anything fell sharply as their neighbours’ fortunes improved. The decline in satisfaction prompted by seeing one’s peers get $100 richer was bigger than the increase of satisfaction from getting a handout of the same size. The bigger the handouts to others in their village, the greater the dissatisfaction of non-recipients. (The handouts did not seem to have any impact cortisol levels or the prevalence of depression among non-recipients.)"
Full article can be found here:
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21677223-new-study-shows-money-can-buy-you-happinessbut-only-fleetingly-others?fsrc=scn/fb/te/pe/ed/keepingupwiththekarumes
Take from it what you will, but I remain convinced that the game as a whole benefits most when large portions of the population are “best off,” rather than when only a tiny minority are “best off” and the majority of the population are well behind them.
So whats the point? Anet should try to make the mayority of the player base happy?
Arent they trying to do that?
Who is best off in gw2?
~~~ snip ~~~
I give you credit for attempting to bring psychology into the debate. I, too, have a background in psychology as well as business. While jealousy can have a negative impact on people who view the fortunate ones with envious eyes, that’s only half the story. Game designers have to look at the impact of player retention. The science to player retention in MMOs is to give players long term goals or goals that have a high replay value. Giving all players what they want achieves the opposite of this. Without goals, players will get bored. The counter to this is to pump out more and more new content. With Anet and their limited resources, they’re not able to bring out new content fast enough, so the only option left is to have longer term goals. The carrot on the long stick, so to speak. And you can also artificially extend the goals by putting in gates (i.e. once per day crafting).
In Guild Wars 2, or any other MMO, you have a wide variety of players. You have players who demand challenges. You have players who thrive in PvP. You have players who roleplay. You have players who want to collect everything in the game. And you have players who want the best items in the game for no effort. The latter is categorized as Entitlement. Among all groups and types of players, the Entitled player is the one that a game company doesn’t want to cater to. As stated above, once these players get what they want, and no longer have anything else to desire, they lose interest in the game. This leads down the road to quitting the game until more new content is released.
There has been debates on players quitting because they don’t get what they want. This is true. Some players who don’t get their way, or if the game doesn’t do/reward what they’re feel they deserve, they’ll leave. However, this group would have far less people quitting than the group of players who are bored. Using some made up numbers, it’s better to have 2 players quit over not having their way, over 100 players quit because there’s nothing left to do.
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
Ok, if you’re actually being serious, then I will answer your questions, last first, since I think the latter illuminate the former better.
“Who is best off in gw2?”
Lots of subjectivity here, but for the purposes of what I was saying in reference to the article (it’s a relatively quick read, btw), it refers to those economically best off, those that are able to buy the things that they want fairly casually, relative to those who would really have to scrimp and save to be able to afford these things.
“So whats the point? Anet should try to make the mayority of the player base happy?
Arent they trying to do that?"
I think they should, and I think that if they are trying to do that, and I hope they do, I believe they are doing it wrong, and that this study, at least, would indicate that. The belief is that if a few people are granted significant wealth above their peers, then it makes those people happy, and it makes everyone else strive to match them.
The study seems to indicate that while it may make the recipient happier, it only makes them slightly happier, while each other person becomes less happy by a more significant amount, so the net happiness of the population drops significantly. That would indicate that the solution is not to concentrate prosperity, to make “the good stuff” something quite rare that only a select few can enjoy, but rather to try and spread it as evenly as possible.
Yes, people should have to work towards tangible goals, but progress towards these goals should be through in-game direct effort, not through accumulation of gold via trade. And if you’re going to suggest that gold trading should be considered another legitimate way to play the game, then that’s fine, but in that case it would need to be thoroughly in balance with all other ingame activities, providing no more gold per hour of play than the various other options. It is currently nowhere close to balanced by that standard.
This comparison isnt even related. In the example the people are being GIVEN something while the others arnt, when it comes to legendarys in gw2 no one is getting free handouts while others arnt, people who put in the work get the reward, and those who dont complain its too much work. Those players complaining have just as much access to those legendarys, its their own choice not to work at it
Maybe it is balanced. Does anyone factor in all the people that ‘play’ (casually, of course) the market and don’t make oodles of gold? How about those that lose gold?
I certainly don’t make a lot of money off the Trading Post. Probably 2 or 3 Gold in 3+ years off investments. Ha!
Well as far as I can tell, the top of the luxury rewards, legendaries, can be obtained without any ties to the market whatsoever, and therefore are accessible to everyone equally.
Same with most of the new content like minis or armor skins, which can be earned by participation.
The exception is RNG rewards like the tonic for the halloween shoulders. And the amount of backlash and complaints shows exactly how people dislike this style. Hopefully Anet will soon get the message and stop.
I cant really think of other rewards that gold is necessary for, other than gem store items like weapon skins. Thats a whole different category though that doesnt really apply here.
I don’t want something for nothing, but what I do want, and what I think should happen, is a legendary weapon (or ascended armor or weapon) giving as a direct reward for finishing things like the Personal Story. Seriously, you kill Zhaitan and you get a thing to possibly help make another thing.
Rewards should be substantial for completing something substantial (ok, they nerfed that chapter of the PS, but still). I have no idea why rewards aren’t something worthwhile.
What I find most interesting about the article is this part.
“A study by Ada Ferrer-i-Carbonell looking at data on life satisfaction from Germany might help explain the Kenyans’ reactions. She concludes that there is an asymmetry in the way people compare themselves with others. We tend to look exclusively at those better off than us, rather than contemplate our position within the full range of outcomes. When the lot of others improves, we react negatively, but when our own lot improves, we shift our reference group to those who are still better off. In other words, we are never satisfied, since we quickly become accustomed to our own achievements. Perhaps that is what spurs people to earn more, and economies to grow.”
In general, people are rarely or never satisfied. In MMO’s, this manifests less as jealousy of other players than as the constant “gimme more” reaction. “I got that reward, there’s nothing to do.” “I completed in a week that Xpac you took a year to design. I’m bored. We need more content”
There are multiple issues implicit in the discussion.
Both types of rewards favor certain groups of players over others. The difference is that in grind-based rewards, anyone can get the reward eventually. The dissatisfaction is due to impatience. With exclusive rewards, the dissatisfaction is based on aversion to the specific content.
The closest in-game situation to the Kenyan study group would be 1.0 precursors, because the money transfers were awarded by a lottery system. This type of dissatisfaction is based on what I’ll call indignation, as in, “Why is he lucky and I’m not?” We certainly see that reaction on these boards, also.
In the Kenyan study, a family’s wealth was doubled simply due to chance. The stress levels of the have-nots is caused by poverty. This ought to be of more concern than stress caused by choosing not to attempt raids and being denied an armor skin
Nevertheless, the OP is correct about one thing. It would be better for ANet to satisfy everyone all the time if this would result in perfect retention.
This is not an ideal world, however. It is impossible for a game developer to have everything satisfy everyone because some groups have diametrically opposed desires. In an attempt to try to please everyone, developers often will try to vary up their offerings to provide something for everyone. This does mean, though, that players would need to accept that not everything added to the game is for them. That seems to be a big ask for some people.
Ok, if you’re actually being serious, then I will answer your questions, last first, since I think the latter illuminate the former better.
“Who is best off in gw2?”
Lots of subjectivity here, but for the purposes of what I was saying in reference to the article (it’s a relatively quick read, btw), it refers to those economically best off, those that are able to buy the things that they want fairly casually, relative to those who would really have to scrimp and save to be able to afford these things.
“So whats the point? Anet should try to make the mayority of the player base happy?
Arent they trying to do that?"
I think they should, and I think that if they are trying to do that, and I hope they do, I believe they are doing it wrong, and that this study, at least, would indicate that. The belief is that if a few people are granted significant wealth above their peers, then it makes those people happy, and it makes everyone else strive to match them.
The study seems to indicate that while it may make the recipient happier, it only makes them slightly happier, while each other person becomes less happy by a more significant amount, so the net happiness of the population drops significantly. That would indicate that the solution is not to concentrate prosperity, to make “the good stuff” something quite rare that only a select few can enjoy, but rather to try and spread it as evenly as possible.
Yes, people should have to work towards tangible goals, but progress towards these goals should be through in-game direct effort, not through accumulation of gold via trade. And if you’re going to suggest that gold trading should be considered another legitimate way to play the game, then that’s fine, but in that case it would need to be thoroughly in balance with all other ingame activities, providing no more gold per hour of play than the various other options. It is currently nowhere close to balanced by that standard.
In general, I think Anet made some great changes to overall reward structures in order to spread rewards more equally across the player base. Gold cant be target farmed as easily as before and regular gameplay got more rewarding.
Also the high requirements for ascended mats for new legendaries are a good way in my opinion, to transfer some gold from rich players to casuals because common mats of all tiers now hold more value than before.
And as already mentioned, I as a gold rich player, didnt get any free hand outs from Anet. I never bought gold with gems, either, so all my wealth was earned in game.
Granted, alot of it came from trading but its part of the game.
But trading isnt a free hand out from arenanet. In fact, ANet doesnt give any rewards for trading, they actually penalize you with a 15% tax and fees.
The gold i earn doesnt come from Anet but other players.
You cant blame ANet for that.
Honestly this game is extremely fair to everyone.
You want a precursor? You can craft it. “Oh but it’s expensive if I buy all the ascended mats off the trading post!”
So… don’t buy them? You can grab a pickaxe and a logging axe and run around the map for 20 minutes a day and craft the ascended mats yourself. You do that for 1 to 2 months, boom you got a precursor. But do you do it? Of course not. Because you’re lazy and you’d rather whine about it.
This comparison isnt even related. In the example the people are being GIVEN something while the others arnt, when it comes to legendarys in gw2 no one is getting free handouts while others arnt,
Oh? Ever got a precursor drop? Or an Ascended Box of any kind? Those are being given out. And even if we get into specific rewards, those are “given” too, as certain methods are assigned to certain rewards, and if those methods are something you can and want to do, then that is a gift to you, while if it’s something that you can’t or don’t want to do, then it is not so much of a gift.
Maybe it is balanced. Does anyone factor in all the people that ‘play’ (casually, of course) the market and don’t make oodles of gold? How about those that lose gold?
So let me pose this: Say there is a class in the game. Say it has a very complicated ideal skill rotation. Say that if you fumble this rotation, the class is not very good, middling at best, but if you are reasonably good at hitting the rotation, the class is overwhelmingly powerful, just absolutely obliterates any other class in 1v1, 1v2, even 1v5.
So it’s undeniably, ridiculously unbalanced if you have the skills to play it well (even if you applied those same skills to any other class you’ve never have anywhere near the same results), but it’s not unbalanced if you’re just facerolling with it. You would not see that as a balance issue that would be best fixed?
Well as far as I can tell, the top of the luxury rewards, legendaries, can be obtained without any ties to the market whatsoever, and therefore are accessible to everyone equally.
That’s really a false position though. Yes, it is possible to acquire a Legendary without touching the markets, but that is a far longer path, no matter how you pursue it, than using the TP along the way. Even if you try to farm all the mats yourself, you’re just wasting time in not selling off items you accumulate along the way and using that money to buy the mats you’re missing.
That doesn’t even factor in the Precursor, which either requires high RNG, building and tossing a bunch of weapons into the forge (which is also high RNG and good luck doing that using only materials you farm yourself), or doing the Precursor quests, which currently also require literal tons of materials, which would take you years to farm for yourself.
Yes, “build the Legendary entirely through your own efforts” is a possible path, but it is nowhere near balanced against the TP alternatives.
In general, people are rarely or never satisfied. In MMO’s, this manifests less as jealousy of other players than as the constant “gimme more” reaction. “I got that reward, there’s nothing to do.” “I completed in a week that Xpac you took a year to design. I’m bored. We need more content”
Yes, and some people look at that situation and say “people should be better than that.” And maybe they should, but they won’t. It’s human nature. So the more useful response is “people can be expected to behave a certain way, how can we design a world that takes that into account?” You do that by having a more level balance between highs and lows, so that the highest goals one can achieve are achievable by most of the people within a reasonable amount of time, rather than making the highest goals something that only a few people can be reasonably expected to accomplish (yes, I’m talking to you too, the “well anyone can do it if they apply themselves” crowd).
Both types of rewards favor certain groups of players over others. The difference is that in grind-based rewards, anyone can get the reward eventually. The dissatisfaction is due to impatience. With exclusive rewards, the dissatisfaction is based on aversion to the specific content.
I believe that a reasonable amount of time to earn a reward is fine, but certain items in the game currently require unreasonable investments of time.
In the Kenyan study, a family’s wealth was doubled simply due to chance. The stress levels of the have-nots is caused by poverty. This ought to be of more concern than stress caused by choosing not to attempt raids and being denied an armor skin
First, if you’re saying that real life poverty is more of a concern than things that happen in a game, of course it is, but we’re talking about a game here, how we can make that game the best it can be, so outside concerns like that are irrelevant to the scope of the discussion. If you mean to say that the Kenyans’ poverty was more of a problem for them than a player not having a Nightfury, then this is also true, but keep in mind, the people who didn’t win the lottery were no worse off than they were before the lottery, they were just as poor, the only change was that someone else had more, so that’s not really a factor either.
This is not an ideal world, however. It is impossible for a game developer to have everything satisfy everyone because some groups have diametrically opposed desires. In an attempt to try to please everyone, developers often will try to vary up their offerings to provide something for everyone. This does mean, though, that players would need to accept that not everything added to the game is for them. That seems to be a big ask for some people.
I believe this is true of content. If I do not enjoy PvP, they will still likely add PvP because some will enjoy it, and that is fine. Where I disagree is when people try to apply this to rewards, because whether a reward is “for me” or not is entirely subjective to me, and entirely irrespective of where that reward drops from. If you tell me that a given armor piece is “not for me” because it only drops from PvP and I don’t want to PvP for it, then no, you are wrong on that. The armor is “for me” if I believe it is “for me,” they have just made the method of obtaining it inconvenient to me.
This is why rewards should have as broad a method of obtaining them as possible, so that anyone who enjoys playing the game in any reasonable manner can progress towards any rewards to which he is attracted.
Also the high requirements for ascended mats for new legendaries are a good way in my opinion, to transfer some gold from rich players to casuals because common mats of all tiers now hold more value than before.
Except that casuals have just as much need for those Ascended mats, and now have difficulty affording them. I just don’t think you have a grasp of what actual players of this game want or need from the game, You seem to view the average player as some sort of prole, just tolling away at their dirt farms so that they can scrape together enough materials that they can trade to rich players so that rich players can have nice things. That is not a healthy game community by any stretch. The healthy community is one in which everyone has nice things. Enough with this “trickle down economy” nonsense.
And as already mentioned, I as a gold rich player, didnt get any free hand outs from Anet. I never bought gold with gems, either, so all my wealth was earned in game.
But only by abusing a grossly unbalanced gold-earning engine that ANet provided to you. It’d be like if they added a “God” class to the game that was effectively a level 160 character, able to one-shot the Vale Guardian, and a player was humble-bragging that he’d totally earned everything he had because all he did was play that God-class and solo-farmed the raid for a few days. Yes, you “earned” what you have, but only because ANet gave you tools that allowed you to exploit your fellow players.
The gold i earn doesnt come from Anet but other players.
You cant blame ANet for that.
Just watch me. Ultimately, everything that occurs in the game is ANet’s responsibility, because they designed the tools that allow that to take place.
Except that casuals have just as much need for those Ascended mats, and now have difficulty affording them. I just don’t think you have a grasp of what actual players of this game want or need from the game, You seem to view the average player as some sort of prole, just tolling away at their dirt farms so that they can scrape together enough materials that they can trade to rich players so that rich players can have nice things. That is not a healthy game community by any stretch. The healthy community is one in which everyone has nice things. Enough with this “trickle down economy” nonsense.
And as already mentioned, I as a gold rich player, didnt get any free hand outs from Anet. I never bought gold with gems, either, so all my wealth was earned in game.
But only by abusing a grossly unbalanced gold-earning engine that ANet provided to you. It’d be like if they added a “God” class to the game that was effectively a level 160 character, able to one-shot the Vale Guardian, and a player was humble-bragging that he’d totally earned everything he had because all he did was play that God-class and solo-farmed the raid for a few days. Yes, you “earned” what you have, but only because ANet gave you tools that allowed you to exploit your fellow players.
The gold i earn doesnt come from Anet but other players.
You cant blame ANet for that.
Just watch me. Ultimately, everything that occurs in the game is ANet’s responsibility, because they designed the tools that allow that to take place.
Anet didnt give me an OP tool to print gold and even if you might see it as that, they didnt give it just to me, they gave it to everyone that paid for the game.
Your OP class would definately be an exploit because it can be used to farm rewards at a very fast rate, that are created out of thin air. The TP cant do that.
Anything i earn there is given to me with mutual consent and by free choice of other players. I cant force anyone to sell to or buy from me.
No matter how i make my profits on the trading post, be it flipping, investing or playing the odds, my bigger profit margins basically boil down to the fact that I value the items i sell higher than other people and wait for them to sell. It might take a minute, hour, day or a couple of months more but thats all i do.
It all comes down to freedom of choice and i dont know why you want to destroy that freedom for everybody in the game just because you feel unfairly treated because i have more gold in my wallet than you.
I accepted long ago that we have fundamentally different views on the economy, I prefer the capitalistic way it is now and you seem to prefer a socialistic way, where everyone earns the same.
You say a healthy economy is where everyone has nice things.
Thats a noble thought but how do you address the fact that some people put in more effort (game time) than others?
I good portion of my wealth derives from the fact that i nearly clocked 10k hours. I also dont play alts, just one character and I dont care too much about style, so i dont really spend that much gold over time on gear, skins minis, dyes or other non-essential shenanigans than other players.
Even if I only would have earned 5g per hour, i would sit on 50k gold by now and would have considerably more wealth than someone who just started out with HoT.
It doesnt really matter, where my gold comes from, if the simple fact that i have more than you makes you feel uncomfortable or unfairly treated.
I your personal perception of others that are better off than you is so important to you, I am not sure if an mmo is the right game for you and I would say that a solo rpg is what you are looking for.
So whats the point? Anet should try to make the mayority of the player base happy?
Arent they trying to do that?
No.
Or, if they are, they are failing badly.
The game has definitely gone in a big guild, more hardcore player, direction.
Anet didnt give me an OP tool to print gold and even if you might see it as that, they didnt give it just to me, they gave it to everyone that paid for the game.
And just as if they added one God-class to the game, any player could choose it, but it wouldn’t be as fun for the players that really wanted to play a different class instead. And to use the example of the class requiring a certain level of skill to make it God-class, while a middling-skilled player would only achieve middling results, the market is similar, if you know how to work it, you can receive grossly out of balance returns for your time and effort spent, while if you lack that skill, then you won’t get anything out of it.
I’m not saying that higher skill should not result in higher returns, just that it should not result in returns so drastically higher than any other activity.
Your OP class would definately be an exploit because it can be used to farm rewards at a very fast rate, that are created out of thin air. The TP cant do that.
You’re getting back into that “Items created from thin air are completely different than items taken from other players” argument, which is entirely pointless. That may matter on a macro-economic level, but it’s completely irrelevant on a player level. All that matters on a player level is how much items cost to you, and how much money you bring in, from any source.
The macroeconomic argument is important to consider, but it does not invalidate the player-level situations, that needs to be resolved as well.
Thats a noble thought but how do you address the fact that some people put in more effort (game time) than others?
If they put in more effort then they put in more effort. So what? It’s not like the real world where putting in more effort actually brings benefit to other people, it’s a game, they’re meant to be having fun, they should put in as much or as little effort as they enjoy. If they reach a point where they feel additional effort would mean less fun for them, then by all means they should stop and do something else with their time.
I good portion of my wealth derives from the fact that i nearly clocked 10k hours. I also dont play alts, just one character and I dont care too much about style, so i dont really spend that much gold over time on gear, skins minis, dyes or other non-essential shenanigans than other players.
Neither do I. Oh, I have plenty of alts, but I’m very frugal about gearing them, most only wear found-items of minimal resale value. The difference in wealth is not in time or effort spent playing the game, it’s in the relative returns of the activities you prefer over the activities I prefer. It’s you preferring the “God-class” while I prefer to play as a Guardian or Daredevil(although I quite like Reaper and Tempest at the moment).
It doesnt really matter, where my gold comes from, if the simple fact that i have more than you makes you feel uncomfortable or unfairly treated.
Honestly, the gold itself doesn’t bother me at all. You could have 10m gold for all I care. What bothers me is what having that gold allows you to buy (if you want them, doesn’t matter whether you do or not). There are plenty of items in the game that cost thousands of gold to procure. If I had substantially less gold than you, but I still had plenty that I could buy every item on the TP that I was interested in and still have plenty left over for a rainy day, then I wouldn’t mind in the least you having more. But that I do not have enough to afford all the items I’d want, and that others do, and earned it through what I view as distasteful and illegitimate means, yeah, that does bother me.
I your personal perception of others that are better off than you is so important to you, I am not sure if an mmo is the right game for you and I would say that a solo rpg is what you are looking for.
And if you can play this game for 10K hours and not even care about “alts, . . .style, . . . gear, skins minis, dyes or other non-essential shenanigans,” then I’m not sure GW2 is the right game for you, you might be happier with a more pure economic simulator like EVE, one where the economy does not have actual impact on people trying to enjoy an adventure game about sword and armor.
But i am playing gw2 happily and you dont see me complaining about all the stuff I CANT buy with gold only because i need account bound rewards for it.
I cant get ascended gear with gold only, i cant get the new legendary weapons, armor or the backpack either.
Why is it that i dont feel neglected by anet because other players can earn stuff with their playstyle that i cant while trading but you feel worse off just because i have alot of gold?
Seems like a personal problem rather than a problem with the game.
And how does your OP and the article relate to the fact that you dont seem to have a problem with someone having substantially more gold than you but only the way it was accumulated?
How do I affect the game any differently compared to someone who buys his wealth in game with real currency?
I actually seem to have less impact on the economy because i dont really spend my gold, while people who who buy gold with money usually do so to spend that gold for a special purpose.
(edited by Wanze.8410)
So basically… people are lazy and jealous of people who are hard working…
Well that isn’t exactly a shocking revelation is it?
But i am playing gw2 happily and you dont see me complaining about all the stuff I CANT buy with gold only because i need account bound rewards for it.
And that’s you, you’re there, being you, it has nothing to do with anyone else.
I cant get ascended gear with gold only, i cant get the new legendary weapons, armor or the backpack either.
Sure you can, the armor at least. Well, not a full suit of it, but at least one piece, using an achievement earned Lesser Vision Crystal (and achievement you can complete just by buying armor skins with gold). Of course the far simpler way to make full ascended is by making your own lesser vision crystals, and yes, this does require some gameplay, but be serious, the gameplay it requires is relatively effortless and time minimal, it would take a fraction of the time to earn all the accountbound materials needed to craft a suit of the cheapest Ascended armor than it would take to earn the gold needed through similar methods, and that’s not even including the gold needed to level the appropriate crafting disciplines. You’re talking peanuts vs. elephants.
As for the new Legendary gear, yeah, maybe you can’t get that entirely using gold, but gold gives you a huge head start on a lot of them if you’re willing to put in the other effort, and even if you aren’t a ton of other people who play the game constantly won’t be getting those either any time soon.
Why is it that i dont feel neglected by anet because other players can earn stuff with their playstyle that i cant while trading but you feel worse off just because i have alot of gold?
I don’t know, and ultimately it doesn’t matter. You’re you, I’m me, everybody’s different.
Seems like a personal problem rather than a problem with the game.
It’s a personal problem I have with the game, yes. You say that as if that means it’s an irrelevant problem. Personal problems are not irrelevant when the game is populated by people. Personal problems ARE game problems. That’s kind of the point I was raising with the article, that unbalanced economic distribution tends to lead to more sadness overall than it causes happiness, so they should probably be avoided.
And how does your OP and the article relate to the fact that you dont seem to have a problem with someone having substantially more gold than you but only the way it was accumulated?
Because the article points out that even in that case example, the people didn’t seem to have a problem with the economic inequality itself, they had a problem with the sudden and unequal influx.
How do I affect the game any differently compared to someone who buys his wealth in game with real currency?
Not much, although personally I’m no fan of those sorts either. If there is any distinction, it’s in how your methods prey on your fellow players, however much you try to pass that off as “them asking for it.”
I actually seem to have less impact on the economy because i dont really spend my gold, while people who who buy gold with money usually do so to spend that gold for a special purpose.
Look, I’m by no means saying that you personally are the worst person in the game, or anything of the sort. But you are coming on here and defending a system that allows such abuses. Maybe you personally don’t spend your gold, but others in similar positions to you do, and that spending has the consequence of high prices on luxury goods. Things would not be listed for thousands of gold if nobody could or would ever pay it. If anyone tried, someone would just undercut them. The costs of goods are all relative to what people are willing and able to pay for them. I don’t particularly blame you for taking advantage of the system as it exists, you’re just doing your best with the tools available. I blame ANet for allowing the system to exist in its current form, and what animus I hold towards you is only for you publicly defending the corrupt system.
Then, I guess we should all be thankful the rewards from dungeons were nerfed, as dungeon-runners made significantly more Gold per hour than all those that don’t have the ‘skill’ or desire to run dungeons.
I guess the OP wants everything one does in-game to give the exact same rewards at the end of a play session, regardless of time spent or skill involved. Every player should have all the exact same things? Maybe all rewards should move to the Daily Log-in rewards?
I don’t know. Speaking just for myself, I could not care less if someone makes a lot of Gold on the TP. It does not affect my gameplay, as I don’t ascribe to the ‘buy what you need off the TP’ -type of gameplay. If I want something, I earn it through drops, crafting, achievement, or whatever. To me, it’s ‘cheating (myself)’ to just buy it. I understand most players don’t feel that way; I would never impose my way of playing on others, though.
Good luck, OP, on your suggestion (though I hope ArenaNet doesn’t change their basic philosophy, because I like the game – as-is).
So basically… people are lazy and jealous of people who are hard working…
Well that isn’t exactly a shocking revelation is it?
Well, no, it’s saying that one person getting a windfall, or very uneven wealth distribution in general, actually demotivates people, as it makes them depressed.
…and that depression makes them less productive than they were previously, or than they would be otherwise.
It has nothing to do with working harder, or less hard, as these are windfalls.
Also, as I would hope we would all realise, working harder doesn’t necessarily mean earning more money.
It depends, far more, on what you do; not how hard you work at it.
Most people, in capitalist countries, believe that one person getting rich motivates others to try to get rich too; but, actually, that isn’t necessarily true.
In fact, it can often have the opposite effect.
That is the point.
Also (and this goes against the study somewhat – maybe because it happens in already developed countries more), but I happen to know that some people, especially people from poorer backgrounds, or people who are friends with people from poorer backgrounds, often feel guilty if they “succeed”, or are given chances to succeed, when their friends and family aren’t.
So, that can also be a demotivating factor.
As some people would rather remain poorer, rather than risking upsetting, or losing the friendship, of those close to them.
The more unevenly distributed the wealth is at the time, the more this seems to happen.
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
So basically… people are lazy and jealous of people who are hard working…
Well that isn’t exactly a shocking revelation is it?
Well, no, it’s saying that one person getting a windfall, or very uneven wealth distribution in general, actually demotivates people, as it makes them depressed.
…and that depression makes them less productive than they were previously, or than they would be otherwise.
Most people, in capitalist countries, believe that one person getting rich motivates others to try to get rich too; but, actually, that isn’t necessarily true.
In fact, it can often have the opposite effect.
That is the point.
Also (and this goes against the study somewhat – maybe because it happens in already developed countries more), but I happen to know that some people, especially people from poorer backgrounds, or people who are friends with people from poorer backgrounds, often feel guilty if they “succeed”, or are given chances to succeed, when their friends and family aren’t.
So, that can also be a demotivating factor.
As some people would rather remain poorer, rather than risking upsetting, or losing the friendship, of those close to them.
The more unevenly distributed the wealth is at the time, the more this seems to happen.
You literally just spent 4 paragraphs describing being jealous.
The only way this would be even close to a valid argument for something is if getting a landfall of wealth meant that suddenly you could no longer get that wealth. I.E a finite resource is suddenly owned and controlled by a single person and you can not obtain it any other way. That would be grounds for a complaint/change. Being jealous is not.
You literally just spent 4 paragraphs describing being jealous.
I most certainly did not.
The only way this would be even close to a valid argument for something is if getting a landfall of wealth meant that suddenly you could no longer get that wealth. I.E a finite resource is suddenly owned and controlled by a single person and you can not obtain it any other way. That would be grounds for a complaint/change. Being jealous is not.
Windfall.
The word is windfall, not “landfall”.
I have nothing more to add.
I suggest you re-read what I wrote.
Just because i can maybe get 1 or 2 ascended armor pieces by buying some collection achievement doesnt mean i can achieve it at a higher rate than players who earn the account bound mats by playing the game.
At that pace, my gold is not in competition for the tradeable mats and therefore im not responsible for the high prices of those mats.
Honestly, my impact on the economy is on par with someone who puts in 4-8 hours of gameplay per day.
You are always saying that i am abusing and exploiting a system but all i do is listing my stuff at higher prices than the average player.
If they would list their loot at the same value as me, they would make the same profit, its that simple.
Rofl once again ohoni never fails in the entitlement department
your argument is essentially that you want to receive top tier rewards for logging in and doing ANYTHING and that its “unfair” if another players playstyle is more profitable or effective at receiving those rewards than what you personally LIKE to do.
Its essentially the same thing as demanding to make money for watching tv and eating cake because thats what you like to do and saying its unfair people WORKING a job get paid to do something you dont consider “fun”
So basically… people are lazy and jealous of people who are hard working…
Well that isn’t exactly a shocking revelation is it?
“Hard working”? So….a game meant for fun should be something you need to work hard at to be successful? “Video game” and “hard working” should never be in the same sentence. Challenging <> necessity to work hard.
I already work hard, I don’t need or want to play a game that requires me to add more work to my already overflowing plate.
Rofl once again ohoni never fails in the entitlement department
your argument is essentially that you want to receive top tier rewards for logging in and doing ANYTHING and that its “unfair” if another players playstyle is more profitable or effective at receiving those rewards than what you personally LIKE to do.
Its essentially the same thing as demanding to make money for watching tv and eating cake because thats what you like to do and saying its unfair people WORKING a job get paid to do something you dont consider “fun”
Really? That’s your analogy? People who want to get things in a game…a GAME – you equate that to real life?
Do I want things in a game? Yup. Do I want to essentially work at it for hours a day, grinding mats and re-running content over and over again, to accomplish it…not a freaking chance.
Rofl once again ohoni never fails in the entitlement department
your argument is essentially that you want to receive top tier rewards for logging in and doing ANYTHING and that its “unfair” if another players playstyle is more profitable or effective at receiving those rewards than what you personally LIKE to do.
Its essentially the same thing as demanding to make money for watching tv and eating cake because thats what you like to do and saying its unfair people WORKING a job get paid to do something you dont consider “fun”
This.
I don’t even bother responding to Ohoni at this point. He is like a brik wall.
Without reading most of his posts, let me guess to what it boils down to:
- give players stuff for free
- players with more stuff have somehow cheated or used unfair advantages to get where they are now
- rng is bad
All the while he probably did not mention any of the benefits that have come around with HoT:
- most exotics are now dirt cheap. Yes, some exotics were close to 10g or above pre HoT. Most have corrected themselves down to 0.5-1.5g per armor piece and about 1.5-3.5g per weapon
- cost of materials being distributed to lower tiers means new players have a very easy way of aquireing gold while leveling
- a lot of the old collections have droped dramatically in price giving access to their rewards easier
- Mawdrey costs a fraction of what it did 2 months ago
The funny thing, now everyone is absolutely going mad over having to get ascended (without having bother or cared pre HoT in over 2.5 years). Best of all, they have to have their ascended asap, better yet, delivered yesterday. It’s easier than ever to gear twinks up for wvw with full exotic. Funny, not to long ago people were content with this.
Same goes for precursors. Everyone is up in arms about their cost not droping (who would have guessed…) and the fact that they aren’t free and require timegates. Let’s put it this way, if gathering the gold to buy the precursor off the TP was never a limiting factor, why haven’t you done this in the last 3 years?
The grass is always greener on the other side I guess.
Really? That’s your analogy? People who want to get things in a game…a GAME – you equate that to real life?
Do I want things in a game? Yup. Do I want to essentially work at it for hours a day, grinding mats and re-running content over and over again, to accomplish it…not a freaking chance.
A valid point. You won’t like the solution though: this game isn’t for you. Try sticking to single player games and stay away from MMOs.
Really? That’s your analogy? People who want to get things in a game…a GAME – you equate that to real life?
Do I want things in a game? Yup. Do I want to essentially work at it for hours a day, grinding mats and re-running content over and over again, to accomplish it…not a freaking chance.
A valid point. You won’t like the solution though: this game isn’t for you. Try sticking to single player games and stay away from MMOs.
That. That right there is what will kill this game. The attitude that someone who wants half-decent rewards for completing challenging content should stay away from MMOs. So, all MMOs are about constant grind and repetition? Why? Is the reason simply: “That’s the way it is”? If so, that’s some shortsighted thinking right there.
Do I want things in a game? Yup. Do I want to essentially work at it for hours a day, grinding mats and re-running content over and over again, to accomplish it…not a freaking chance.
But why is that a problem? Why should the game give you what you want without requiring work? I believe there’s a song that might apply to this situation…
Do I want things in a game? Yup. Do I want to essentially work at it for hours a day, grinding mats and re-running content over and over again, to accomplish it…not a freaking chance.
But why is that a problem? Why should the game give you what you want without requiring work? I believe there’s a song that might apply to this situation…
Sigh. I didn’t say I didn’t want to work at it, I said “…work at it for hours a day…”. I do not want my game to be a full time job. I have a job, I work upwards of 50 hours a week. I have children.
There are people out there who, the only light that touches their pale, pale skin, is the muted colors of their monitors.
I beat Zhaitan three times before they made the whole PS event solo-able. Did I expect a fantastic reward for that, you’re freaking right I did. What I got was like a coupon to get $10 off when I purchase something for $200,000 or more.
RNG and farming be kitten ed – if you complete challenging content, you should be rewarded. Period.
Really? That’s your analogy? People who want to get things in a game…a GAME – you equate that to real life?
Do I want things in a game? Yup. Do I want to essentially work at it for hours a day, grinding mats and re-running content over and over again, to accomplish it…not a freaking chance.
A valid point. You won’t like the solution though: this game isn’t for you. Try sticking to single player games and stay away from MMOs.
That. That right there is what will kill this game. The attitude that someone who wants half-decent rewards for completing challenging content should stay away from MMOs. So, all MMOs are about constant grind and repetition? Why? Is the reason simply: “That’s the way it is”? If so, that’s some shortsighted thinking right there.
Most are, yes. Due to one very simple basic fact:
- producing interesting content at a speed that it gets consumed is not yet possible.
- different MMOs deal with this problem in different ways. Some reset all your progress back to 0 (see WoW) and/or raise your level cap. Others aproach this differently, like GW2.
- if you find a good MMO on the market that manages to circumvent this, please let me know.
Also your second response varied wildly from your first. One was about grinding, the other about challenging content being rewarding. Two different aspects. The fact about challenging content being more rewarding seems to get addressed with the update to fractals.
When I got a precursor from a Silverwaste bag I was quite relieved, and selling it only made me a fraction closer to fully completing ascended armor (rather than fully completing all 3 with some coin left over).
“- give players stuff for free” Happens, albeit in an RNG way. I got three ascended weapons from Teq (greatsword, staff, and hammer last two I didn’t even need to stat change since they were celestial and soldier’s respectively) and got the precursor. I won’t say the first I got was “free” since I got it in the mystic forge years ago.
“- players with more stuff have somehow cheated or used unfair advantages to get where they are now”
Nope, that’s a ludicrous assumption. I know I didn’t cheat for the money I have, just do lots of gathering, events, used the mystic forge for mats, and even the occasional getting lucky.
“- rng is bad”
It is on average, but do something long enough and you increase your chances of a good outcome. I exploited this when I made my first precursor. I would run around Orr gathering mithril, elder wood and the T5 stuff for inscriptions, mass produce shortbows, and in a few weeks eventually got my shortbow.
Somethings in the game should be hard to obtain, it gives those items value. If you need a certain PvP win record and kills to obtain a certain armor set then that’ll say you’re good in that area, or certain PvE armors, etc.
… but do something long enough and you increase your chances of a good outcome.
Many a gambling addict has said the same thing haha. You do increase your chances of a good outcome, in the sense that you have multiple “chances” to get a good outcome. The odds don’t get any better, but you certainly get more chances!
Sigh. I didn’t say I didn’t want to work at it, I said “…work at it for hours a day…”. I do not want my game to be a full time job. I have a job, I work upwards of 50 hours a week. I have children.
And a moderate amount of work put in around those other obligations will easily allow you to gear yourself in full Exotic with a nice look. You can even work your way towards a few exclusive skins if you want. A Legendary is going to take a few years, though; if you have a problem with that, then don’t go for one. There are plenty of smaller goals to shoot for along the way.
RNG and farming be kitten ed – if you complete challenging content, you should be rewarded. Period.
And I agree. Nevertheless, exclusivity of some rewards should be maintained.
Honestly this game is extremely fair to everyone.
You want a precursor? You can craft it. “Oh but it’s expensive if I buy all the ascended mats off the trading post!”
So… don’t buy them? You can grab a pickaxe and a logging axe and run around the map for 20 minutes a day and craft the ascended mats yourself. You do that for 1 to 2 months, boom you got a precursor. But do you do it? Of course not. Because you’re lazy and you’d rather whine about it.
This is fine, try making the precursor staff and having to be crystalized by the dragon…a bloody boss dragon that can be blinded for some reason and who also seems to rarely USE the attack you have to get hit by.
These kind of requirements need to either go away, or the boss needs to be blind immune and use the skill reliably often.
… but do something long enough and you increase your chances of a good outcome.
Many a gambling addict has said the same thing haha. You do increase your chances of a good outcome, in the sense that you have multiple “chances” to get a good outcome. The odds don’t get any better, but you certainly get more chances!
At the time T5 mats were dirt cheap in addition to me gathering them so the risk/reward ratio encouraged the gambing.
In real life if lottery tickets were $.02 then you could buy 50 tickets for a dollar, and surely 50 tickets have a better (if marginal) chance of winning than just one. If a ticket costs a dollar then buying 50 is a real risk with considerable investment. Significant resources that could have gone into other things are flushed gambling.
Likewise today if I were to try the precursor gamble all over again it wouldn’t be worth it because manufacturing and selling ascended mats is far more reliable, and would be a significant investment considering how the price of elder and mithril went up.
Growth and aging are big topics in developmental psychology. Content like Raid not only create room for skill development, but also psychosocial aspects as organized group contents.
Then, I guess we should all be thankful the rewards from dungeons were nerfed, as dungeon-runners made significantly more Gold per hour than all those that don’t have the ‘skill’ or desire to run dungeons.
Yeah, in general, so long as they spread that gold out to other activities.
I guess the OP wants everything one does in-game to give the exact same rewards at the end of a play session, regardless of time spent or skill involved. Every player should have all the exact same things? Maybe all rewards should move to the Daily Log-in rewards?
I don’t really think that would be necessary, but yeah, ideally most in game activities would be in reasonable balance.
Just because i can maybe get 1 or 2 ascended armor pieces by buying some collection achievement doesnt mean i can achieve it at a higher rate than players who earn the account bound mats by playing the game.
But again, the larger point is that you’re making a facetious argument that you can’t craft ascended armor with just gold, which while true is largely irrelevant, since you can craft the ascended armor with MOSTLY gold, and with a VERY small amount of additional ingame skill and effort. It’s like complaining that you can’t get from New York to LA on just an airplane because you have to make a 50mi drive to the airport first. True, but that doesn’t mean that the airplane ticket doesn’t make things much more convenient than having to drive the entire way.
If you have two players, one with zero bloodstone/dragonite/emp, but thousands of gold, and another with several bank tabs of those materials but zero gold, try to guess which of them could acquire enough mats to make a set of Ascended Armor first by completing normal ingame activities. If you keep trying to make the same point that you’ve been making, then you would be wrong.
At that pace, my gold is not in competition for the tradeable mats and therefore im not responsible for the high prices of those mats.
Honestly, my impact on the economy is on par with someone who puts in 4-8 hours of gameplay per day.
And again, this isn’t about you, not personally. It is about the systems that you benefit from. You could stop playing the game completely, and I wouldn’t argue that this alone would make the game considerably better. There could be two of you and I doubt it would make things much worse. But the problem is that there are dozens, if not hundreds of people employing similar tactics, and it is their behavior in aggregate that cause the problems. It is the system that needs to change, not what you, personally, choose to do.
You are always saying that i am abusing and exploiting a system but all i do is listing my stuff at higher prices than the average player.
If they would list their loot at the same value as me, they would make the same profit, its that simple.
Which is an argument that has kept exactly zero confidence men out of prison.
- most exotics are now dirt cheap. Yes, some exotics were close to 10g or above pre HoT. Most have corrected themselves down to 0.5-1.5g per armor piece and about 1.5-3.5g per weapon
I don’t know where you did your shopping, but pretty much all exotics were already in the low price range you cited for years now. The only ones in higher price ranges were those with particularly rare skins, and the prices on those have remained high, in some cases spiking due to new/returning players coming in.
So getting the account bound mats like spirit shards, laurels, karma, bloodstone dust, empyrial fragments, dragonite ore for the old stat combos as well as airship oil, auric dust, obsi shards and ley line sparks for the new ones is considered by you no problem at all, while listing your loot for twice or triple the value you usually do is considered impossible.
Right.
I think you simply lost perspective on some things.
So getting the account bound mats like spirit shards, laurels, karma, bloodstone dust, empyrial fragments, dragonite ore for the old stat combos as well as airship oil, auric dust, obsi shards and ley line sparks for the new ones is considered by you no problem at all, while listing your loot for twice or triple the value you usually do is considered impossible.
Right.
I think you simply lost perspective on some things.
That you seem to believe you’ve made a point here just shows that you really don’t understand how the game’s economy works for the average player.
So getting the account bound mats like spirit shards, laurels, karma, bloodstone dust, empyrial fragments, dragonite ore for the old stat combos as well as airship oil, auric dust, obsi shards and ley line sparks for the new ones is considered by you no problem at all, while listing your loot for twice or triple the value you usually do is considered impossible.
Right.
I think you simply lost perspective on some things.
That you seem to believe you’ve made a point here just shows that you really don’t understand how the game’s economy works for the average player.
The average player doesnt have the choice to list his loot at the same value as me?
So getting the account bound mats like spirit shards, laurels, karma, bloodstone dust, empyrial fragments, dragonite ore for the old stat combos as well as airship oil, auric dust, obsi shards and ley line sparks for the new ones is considered by you no problem at all, while listing your loot for twice or triple the value you usually do is considered impossible.
Right.
I think you simply lost perspective on some things.
That you seem to believe you’ve made a point here just shows that you really don’t understand how the game’s economy works for the average player.
If I had to pick as to who has the better understanding of the ingame economy, it definately be Wanze over you Ohoni.
I’m sure many forum regulars will agree on this point no matter if they are sympathetic to Wanze or not. In order to effectively “play the trading post” one must understand the market. Your theories are nice and dandy, but so far all you’ve been advocating for is “free stuff”. That doesn’t show a lot of understanding.
Because he personally doesnt know how to flip stuff on the trading post to make a large profit, its unfair that others do apparently
It’s not that Wanze, Kayberz, and Cynthia are missing the point, it’s that they chose not to address it directly. Rather they deploy strawmen in an attempt to discredit something they feel somehow threaten their comfort.
No, its because his point is entirely self serving, hes blocking out all long term over arcing factors that effect the entire game and is only focused on making things easier and convenient for his own personal play style.
I dont have legendarys, i dont have piles of gold from playing the trading post, the reason for this is because the playstyle required to gain these things isnt something i want to spend my time on because i dont find them fun either, but i dont go around complaining about the players who do these things because im just as capable of doing it too, i just choose not to and i accept that i wont receive the benefits because of my own unwillingness to work at it
So their “self serving” agenda is to have balance throughout the game? Doesn’t that kinda suit to serve everyone?
The average player doesnt have the choice to list his loot at the same value as me?
He doesn’t have the understanding of what price to list things at and expect to ever make a return on that. Listing things is not free, there is a listing fee, and a time lost. If you know that the price on an item will rise 20% over the next few weeks or months, then it might be a good idea to list it at 20% higher than the current list value. If you have no idea that the price will rise, or even that it could fall further,then you have no reasonable expectation of positive returns, so just randomly listing items at prices well above the current level is not likely to pay off.
There is always risk in speculation, but there’s far more risk for those that lack the wherewithal to predict reasonable market movements.
As I said, it’s like if there were a god-class in the game, but it required a certain level of skill to operate. Not more skill than other classes, just more skill than the average player would be able to display, and the returns for it are far and away superior to anything that any other class could possibly achieve, regardless of the skill applied to those classes.
If I had to pick as to who has the better understanding of the ingame economy, it definately be Wanze over you Ohoni.
He understands how to abuse the ingame economy for his own benefit, that does not mean that he understands how the average player interacts with it. His problem is in not understanding human psychology, not in not understanding economic principles.
No, its because his point is entirely self serving, hes blocking out all long term over arcing factors that effect the entire game and is only focused on making things easier and convenient for his own personal play style.
Quite the opposite. You guys are defending a system that serves yourselves, at the expense of the majority of the game’s players. The playstyle I’m trying to reward is the playstyle that the overwhelming majority of the players embrace, and the “playstyle” that I’m trying to curtail is one that is only enjoyed by a tiny fraction of the game’s players. Don’t try to portray your side in this as the populist angle.
but i dont go around complaining about the players who do these things because im just as capable of doing it too, i just choose not to and i accept that i wont receive the benefits because of my own unwillingness to work at it
That’s a very defeatist attitude, but why do you believe it would be beneficial to the game? Why should players have to employ systems that most of them do not enjoy to achieve that level of returns? Why shouldn’t the most enjoyable activities also be the most rewarding? Why does it benefit anyone to have to choose between “doing the things in game that I enjoy doing” or “being able to afford the things I want to have?”
The average player doesnt have the choice to list his loot at the same value as me?
He doesn’t have the understanding of what price to list things at and expect to ever make a return on that. Listing things is not free, there is a listing fee, and a time lost. If you know that the price on an item will rise 20% over the next few weeks or months, then it might be a good idea to list it at 20% higher than the current list value. If you have no idea that the price will rise, or even that it could fall further,then you have no reasonable expectation of positive returns, so just randomly listing items at prices well above the current level is not likely to pay off.
There is always risk in speculation, but there’s far more risk for those that lack the wherewithal to predict reasonable market movements.
As I said, it’s like if there were a god-class in the game, but it required a certain level of skill to operate. Not more skill than other classes, just more skill than the average player would be able to display, and the returns for it are far and away superior to anything that any other class could possibly achieve, regardless of the skill applied to those classes.
If I had to pick as to who has the better understanding of the ingame economy, it definately be Wanze over you Ohoni.
He understands how to abuse the ingame economy for his own benefit, that does not mean that he understands how the average player interacts with it. His problem is in not understanding human psychology, not in not understanding economic principles.
No, its because his point is entirely self serving, hes blocking out all long term over arcing factors that effect the entire game and is only focused on making things easier and convenient for his own personal play style.
Quite the opposite. You guys are defending a system that serves yourselves, at the expense of the majority of the game’s players. The playstyle I’m trying to reward is the playstyle that the overwhelming majority of the players embrace, and the “playstyle” that I’m trying to curtail is one that is only enjoyed by a tiny fraction of the game’s players. Don’t try to portray your side in this as the populist angle.
but i dont go around complaining about the players who do these things because im just as capable of doing it too, i just choose not to and i accept that i wont receive the benefits because of my own unwillingness to work at it
That’s a very defeatist attitude, but why do you believe it would be beneficial to the game? Why should players have to employ systems that most of them do not enjoy to achieve that level of returns? Why shouldn’t the most enjoyable activities also be the most rewarding? Why does it benefit anyone to have to choose between “doing the things in game that I enjoy doing” or “being able to afford the things I want to have?”
You dont understand economics at all, the reason these playstyles are so much more lucrative is because they are doing the work that most people arnt willing to do, thats how entrepreneurship works
If everyone is rich, no-one is rich
And the most enjoyable activities ARE the most rewarding, because this is a game, the point is to have fun. If the only reason your playing is to recieve pixelated rewards just for the sake of having them then you have other issues
Hello again, Ohoni. Sorry about the wall of text in advance. It’s gonna be big.
So let me pose this: Say there is a class in the game. Say it has a very complicated ideal skill rotation. Say that if you fumble this rotation, the class is not very good, middling at best, but if you are reasonably good at hitting the rotation, the class is overwhelmingly powerful, just absolutely obliterates any other class in 1v1, 1v2, even 1v5.
If it can seriously win a 1v5, then yes, it needs fixing just to keep the game in check. But a 1v2, at high skill levels? That’s what’s called skill cap. The more skilled you are at it, the better you do. Anet may want to hit an equilibrium of skill ceiling, but that’s rather unlikely.
~snip~
That doesn’t even factor in the Precursor, which either requires high RNG, building and tossing a bunch of weapons into the forge (which is also high RNG and good luck doing that using only materials you farm yourself), or doing the Precursor quests, which currently also require literal tons of materials, which would take you years to farm for yourself.Yes, “build the Legendary entirely through your own efforts” is a possible path, but it is nowhere near balanced against the TP alternatives.
I recently built Dusk, which requires ~90 deldrimor steel. At the time, I had quite a bit of gold saved up, so I used that to buy the plat/iron involved. With Dusk done, I’ve slowed down and started farming plat and iron. It’s quite farmable, and in a couple full days I’ve been able to get enough for 27+ deld (with a LOT of extra platinum to boot). For a more casual player, the same could be done over a few weeks, not years
In general, people are rarely or never satisfied. In MMO’s, this manifests less as jealousy of other players than as the constant “gimme more” reaction. “I got that reward, there’s nothing to do.” “I completed in a week that Xpac you took a year to design. I’m bored. We need more content”
~snip~ So the more useful response is “people can be expected to behave a certain way, how can we design a world that takes that into account?” You do that by having a more level balance between highs and lows, so that the highest goals one can achieve are achievable by most of the people within a reasonable amount of time, rather than making the highest goals something that only a few people can be reasonably expected to accomplish (yes, I’m talking to you too, the “well anyone can do it if they apply themselves” crowd).
On the contrary, that would exacerbate the problem; those people would reach those goals even faster. And are you really going to argue that people are incapable of getting a legendary even if they apply themselves? I say ‘going to’ because you haven’t actually made any arguments for it, just stated that you don’’t believe in it.
I believe that a reasonable amount of time to earn a reward is fine, but certain items in the game currently require unreasonable investments of time.
And how is reasonable defined? How is this definition objective, agreeable, and useful? As of now, this statement is just vapid.
~snip~ In an attempt to try to please everyone, developers often will try to vary up their offerings to provide something for everyone. This does mean, though, that players would need to accept that not everything added to the game is for them. That seems to be a big ask for some people.
I believe this is true of content. If I do not enjoy PvP, they will still likely add PvP because some will enjoy it, and that is fine. Where I disagree is when people try to apply this to rewards, because whether a reward is “for me” or not is entirely subjective to me, and entirely irrespective of where that reward drops from. If you tell me that a given armor piece is “not for me” because it only drops from PvP and I don’t want to PvP for it, then no, you are wrong on that. The armor is “for me” if I believe it is “for me,” they have just made the method of obtaining it inconvenient to me.
When someone says a reward isn’t ‘for you,’ I think they mean to say, ‘The content required for this reward isn’t for you.’ Either way, what the statement is questioning (and you don’t seem to grasp) is feasibility. A reward may not be for you because it is unfeasible for what you play. You seem to conflate liking something with that thing being for you.
Continued; still gonna be long
Except that casuals have just as much need for those Ascended mats, and now have difficulty affording them. I just don’t think you have a grasp of what actual players of this game want or need from the game, You seem to view the average player as some sort of prole, just tolling away at their dirt farms so that they can scrape together enough materials that they can trade to rich players so that rich players can have nice things. That is not a healthy game community by any stretch. The healthy community is one in which everyone has nice things. Enough with this “trickle down economy” nonsense.
You seem to think you speak for the “proletariat masses,” if you will. You don’t. You speak for no one but yourself, so don’t pretend you represent the average player. We don’t know what the general opinion is; no one has done a poll that I know of. To address what was said, these mats are farmable. Spiritwood and Deld use various ores and logs that can be harvested around Tyria. Boom, new income source for casual players, and a way to get them without buying from the TP.
And just as if they added one God-class to the game, any player could choose it, but it wouldn’t be as fun for the players that really wanted to play a different class instead.
Woah, stop. How is Wanze or Penguin or myself or anyone directly making the game less fun for you. Go ahead, try to demonstrate it.
the market is similar, if you know how to work it, you can receive grossly out of balance returns for your time and effort spent, while if you lack that skill, then you won’t get anything out of it.
I’m not saying that higher skill should not result in higher returns, just that it should not result in returns so drastically higher than any other activity.
This is your opinion. You are entitled to it, but not everyone feels the same way. This doesn’t allow you to force your opinion down the throats of everyone else here.
You’re getting back into that “Items created from thin air are completely different than items taken from other players” argument, which is entirely pointless. That may matter on a macro-economic level, but it’s completely irrelevant on a player level. All that matters on a player level is how much items cost to you, and how much money you bring in, from any source.
The macroeconomic argument is important to consider, but it does not invalidate the player-level situations, that needs to be resolved as well.
You appear to be talking about the cost of items on the TP here. First, please go read something on supply and demand; they are extremely basic economic principles and understanding them would help a lot. If enough people find the prices too high, the demand will shrink and price will drop. To put it another way, if people don’t value an item as much as its price, they won’t buy it, so sellers will sell lower to get buyers. Macroeconomics doesn’t seem all that important to consider for you. But it’s the approach Anet has to take, as the ruling body of this system.
Thats a noble thought but how do you address the fact that some people put in more effort (game time) than others?
If they put in more effort then they put in more effort. So what? It’s not like the real world where putting in more effort actually brings benefit to other people, it’s a game, ~snip~
Do you seriously intend to say that people should not be rewarded more for putting in more effort? Should we move legendaries to Day 2 Login Rewards? Should a person with <100 hours in-game get the same skins and rewards as someone like me, who has put in >3k hours? How is that in any way fair or just?
The difference in wealth is not in time or effort spent playing the game, it’s in the relative returns of the activities you prefer over the activities I prefer. It’s you preferring the “God-class” while I prefer to play as a Guardian or Daredevil(although I quite like Reaper and Tempest at the moment).
I’m surprised you have 10k hours and still feel the need to complain this much. And you want everyone, regardless of activity or time spent, to end up with the exact same rewards? I will not waste another sentence on this particular nonsense, the flaws are obvious.
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