Guild Wars 2

Forum Bug.

Yes, new players, this is what we have to do, here.

Hey new players, on every page of a thread except the first you can clear the forum bug by clicking on the red page number in the upper left under “add reply” causing the page to reload correctly, instead of putting in a ‘forum bug post’.

It’s definitely a balancing act. It’s also heavily dependent on the culture of those playing. I think it goes without saying that western players are more interested in getting their rewards sooner than those in the eastern market. There’s a reason that Korean imports usually fail in the west, and it almost always has to do with time investment/reward.

Yeah, but in Korean they routinely have people dying at their keyboards, so that should never be used as a positive example.

The median and 50% of players rows are the same, so the same phrase applies. Thus, we can extrapolate to say that 500g is ‘your ticket into the top 99%.’ I think you were arguing as though it were the mean, so lets look at the average for 500-1000h.

You are actually looking at “account wealth,” while I was using the “liquid gold” value, since “account wealth” takes into account plenty of irrelevant data, like dyes, skins, and other things that a player might naturally accumulate over his play time, that have no value to him and he could never have the opportunity to sell. Someone who has 2800g account wealth might never have had the opportunity to convert even a tiny fraction of that into gold, it’s hard to say, so it’s a hard value to work with.

Anyway, I was talking about “those within the lower 50th percentile.” The mean is an averaging of what the highest has with the lowest, so all you’re doing is pointing out how the higher wealth players have a disproportionate amount of that wealth, which supports my position. If those at the top had a proportionate share of the available wealth, then the median would be roughly equal to the mean, rather than closer to 2/3 of the mean for account wealth, or 5/6 for liquid gold.

No, I wasn’t talking about the current system, I was talking about yours, so it’s not moot. You’ve also just admitted that in your system, the main thing pushing anything toward any state even resembling equilibrium is players not getting the items they want. Very effective.

I’m honestly not sure what you think your point is on this one, but I am curious.

If you want to take it as hostile, that’s on you. It’s just that single player RPGs don’t suffer from the problem you’ve been complaining about.

Of course they don’t, but they also lack a great many things that MMOs, and GW2 specifically do have, most notably “other players.” It’s a bit like taking your car into the auto shop and saying “I don’t think it’s running right, smoke’s coming out the back,” and he responds with “well maybe you’d be happier driving a motorcycle?” Neither particularly relevant to the problem being addressed, nor helpful.

And yet you’ve spent this entire thread moaning about how the TP is terrible and doesn’t work the way you want it to, and now it becomes ‘just use the TP.’ Now Anet gives you a way to craft it using materials, many of which you can gather, and you moan about it because it uses too many materials. Except ohwait where do those mats come from the open world.

But again, these are market-tradable materials. The entire problem is that it gives those with plenty of gold a leg up on the process over players that don’t have it since they can just buy these materials instantly and effortlessly. I would have no problem with the process if they took [the time it would take to hand-farm all the materials needed for the crafting process] and applied that time to acquiring account-bound, non-fungible materials instead, same exact time if you start at zero, that would be fine, but the gold portion makes it just as much of a gold-chase as just buying the Precursor outright.

No more efficient? The previous mat index was based on an average from an RNG-based system; I’d guess most precursors that were made this way did not fall especially close to that average. Compare that to this new system, where X, Y, and Z mats will always be able to make precursor N, once per account. I’d say that’s far more efficient.

But still it is once per account, and each crafting process involves a whole bunch of activities, some easier than others, so if you removed the original way of making them and ONLY used the new method, the prices would still vary significantly from the raw material baseline, based on how many of those Pres people wanted to keep for themselves, and how many had objectives that are viewed as harder or easier than others. Factor in that the old methods are still available, and the pricing has just been made more chaotic, not less, as the old method’s rules are all still in play, but now have to compete with the new method to determine a final fair price.

Nike.2631:

Hey new players, on every page of a thread except the first you can clear the forum bug by clicking on the red page number in the upper left under “add reply” causing the page to reload correctly, instead of putting in a ‘forum bug post’.

Oh, can you?

That’s FAR better then. ><

…and here I was thinking this forum was an embarrassing mess.

How wrong I was.

Hey, Ohoni.

Still fighting valiantly on, I see.

It’s very admirable, but if I were you I would just leave the game to sink, or swim, on its own merits.

Make your suggestions and then make a timely exit.

Either they will figure it out, or they won’t.

Arguing with people with (quite literally) vested interests, on here, won’t change anything, sadly.

Arguing with people with (quite literally) vested interests, on here, won’t change anything, sadly.

True. I never enter these discussions with the intention of changing the minds of those who decide to challenge me. That never seems likely, they’re as set in their ways as I am in mine. Rather, the goal is to expose the flaws in their positions, and refine any actual flaws in my own, so that an impartial observer can come away with a better understanding of the situation.

Ohoni.6057:

True. I never enter these discussions with the intention of changing the minds of those who decide to challenge me. That never seems likely, they’re as set in their ways as I am in mine. Rather, the goal is to expose the flaws in their positions, and refine any actual flaws in my own, so that an impartial observer can come away with a better understanding of the situation.

Logging on in the middle of the nite to chime in. There are no “flaws” to our positions. We’re basically trying to educate you that nearly everything you suggest just won’t work. This isn’t some argument to protect our vested interest in markets or anything. It’s based on the fact that Wanze is an expert on trade and the in-game economy, and I’m an expert on marketing (which includes psychology, which is what this thread was originally based on) and business.

GW2 is not perfect. No MMO is. There will always be a player unhappy when a game developer makes a decision on the interest of the game itself, rather than the happiness of an individual player. One of the points you bring up constantly is that wealth needs to be evenly distributed, be it preventing smart TP players from making money, to letting all players have access to exclusive content. You know that Anet will never allow that. Proof is in how quickly GM Chris plugs exploits. Things like never ending loot mobs, the snowflake salvaging of the past, or fixing bugs that allow players into areas they don’t belong. By letting vast amounts of players to profit, it destroys the fragile balance of the game economy. This directly corresponds to the longevity of the game.

Let’s get back to the psychology of players. One of the many flaws to your suggestion is that making the majority of the playerbase happy will lead to a better game. False. There are too many individual factors to ever make this true. One of the ways you’d like to achieve this would be to let everyone become rich, or to give everyone what they want. As I’ve already stated in a previous post, this is how you kill a game quicker. If a large group of players got what they wanted, the joy of that instant-gratification would only be temporary. That same large group would then begin to lose interest in the game, simply because they got what they wanted. You can actually chart the downward curve of player retention after a long-term goal has been achieved. The same thing happens in retail business, where customers who got the product they longed for, slowly being to lose interest in that very product now that they have it. The saying “the grass is always greener on the other side” holds true. You want what you can’t have. Then you get it, and you wish you had something else. After you lose it, you then appreciate what you once had.

Game developers know fully well how to use psychology to appeal to players. Decisions like rarity or exclusivity play to the mindset of long-term goals. Even the Black Lion Chest opening animation was designed to entice players to purchase BL Keys.

You know that Anet will never allow that. Proof is in how quickly GM Chris plugs exploits.

You may be right, but your argument here does not support your position. Plugging an exploit is preventing people from cheating the rules, cheating is inherently unfair. The plugging of exploits does not indicate that they would never change the way items are earned or distributed, just that if they did so, it would be an open change that the entire community could benefit from, not a secret little trick that only a few benefit from. It also wouldn’t be a random change with potentially disastrous results, it would be something that they analyzed and accounted for.

If a large group of players got what they wanted, the joy of that instant-gratification would only be temporary. That same large group would then begin to lose interest in the game, simply because they got what they wanted.

Wanze has more money than dozens of players put together, and he apparently put 10K hours in. You greatly underestimate your fellow players. I’m not saying that players should be given “everything for free,” I’m just saying that the average player should have no less access to the things they want than those who are particularly good at the TP. If gold is relatively easy to come by for some, then it should be equally easy to come by for all, regardless of their skills at economics. If you argue that the average player should not have more than he already does, then fair enough, but then TP fatcats should have no more than those other players have either.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

There are no “flaws” to our positions.

What a bold statement.

Even verified experts, in professional situations, are normally far too cautious to make claims like that.

I won’t comment on the rest of it, suffice to say that I do believe that you should strive to make the majority of players happy, I do believe doing that makes for a better game; but I don’t believe you have to make everyone instantly “rich”, or give everyone what they want immediately, to make that happen.

Also, I don’t fall into the category of customer you describe, at all.

I have known people who do, they certainly exist – but this assumption, that certain people seem to have, that everyone does, is incorrect.

Ohoni.6057:

Wanze has more money than dozens of players put together, and he apparently put 10K hours in. You greatly underestimate your fellow players. I’m not saying that players should be given “everything for free,” I’m just saying that the average player should have no less access to the things they want than those who are particularly good at the TP. If gold is relatively easy to come by for some, then it should be equally easy to come by for all, regardless of their skills at economics. If you argue that the average player should not have more than he already does, then fair enough, but then TP fatcats should have no more than those other players have either.

Quite.

The fundamental point, here, is that if it is deemed OK, by Anet, for us to make lots of gold via TP flipping, then it should also be deemed OK, by Anet, for us to make roughly the same amount of gold, via doing pretty much any other (legal) in-game activity.

…and if it is not deemed OK, by Anet,. for us to make lots of gold via most other in-game activities, why should it continue to be deemed OK for us to do it via TP flipping, alone?

…and whatever the answer is to that, how many people actually want to play a TP mini game, all day every day, or know they are seriously wasting their time (gold-wise), doing other things?

Especially in a game where gold = real money.

…and if people know that, why on earth should they continue wasting their time playing a game like that, unless they just happen to be one of the relatively few who enjoy TP flipping?

You see, guys?

It is important to cater to the majority of players, if for no other reason than they will be bloody annoyed once they figure out you aren’t and may just refuse to continue to play ball.

…and now, we really are back to the original subject of this thread.

Ohoni.6057:

The median and 50% of players rows are the same, so the same phrase applies. Thus, we can extrapolate to say that 500g is ‘your ticket into the top 99%.’ I think you were arguing as though it were the mean, so lets look at the average for 500-1000h.

You are actually looking at “account wealth,” while I was using the “liquid gold” value, since “account wealth” takes into account plenty of irrelevant data, like dyes, skins, and other things that a player might naturally accumulate over his play time, that have no value to him and he could never have the opportunity to sell.

Ahh, I missed that. Does liquid gold take into account various sellable mats in the person’s bank/material collection?

Ohoni.6057:

Anyway, I was talking about “those within the lower 50th percentile.” The mean is an averaging of what the highest has with the lowest, so all you’re doing is pointing out how the higher wealth players have a disproportionate amount of that wealth, which supports my position. If those at the top had a proportionate share of the available wealth, then the median would be roughly equal to the mean, rather than closer to 2/3 of the mean for account wealth, or 5/6 for liquid gold.

Well, you were looking at the 50th percentile, the exact middle. Not sure what this ‘lower’ business is. So, you’ve shown that the rich are richer than the poor are poor. You haven’t actually shown any negative effect that these people have on you, much less anything to do with your proposed solutions, or how those would effectively prevent the purported negative link without destroying the economy, etc…..

Ohoni.6057:

No, I wasn’t talking about the current system, I was talking about yours, so it’s not moot. You’ve also just admitted that in your system, the main thing pushing anything toward any state even resembling equilibrium is players not getting the items they want. Very effective.

I’m honestly not sure what you think your point is on this one, but I am curious.

I was originally saying that making it harder for people to ‘do bad deals’ would also make it harder for people to buy and sell loot. Then in response to that, you admitted that the price would approach equilibrium only because nothing was selling due to no one being willing to ‘do bad deals;’ in other words, comparatively little actual trade would happen under your system because no one will fill the other half of an order/listing, and thus no one getting the items they want.

Ohoni.6057:

And yet you’ve spent this entire thread moaning about how the TP is terrible and doesn’t work the way you want it to, and now it becomes ‘just use the TP.’ Now Anet gives you a way to craft it using materials, many of which you can gather, and you moan about it because it uses too many materials. Except ohwait where do those mats come from the open world.

But again, these are market-tradable materials. The entire problem is that it gives those with plenty of gold a leg up on the process over players that don’t have it since they can just buy these materials instantly and effortlessly.

So you have a problem with other people being able to get items first because they have gold.

Ohoni.6057:

I would have no problem with the process if they took [the time it would take to hand-farm all the materials needed for the crafting process] and applied that time to acquiring account-bound, non-fungible materials instead, same exact time if you start at zero, that would be fine, but the gold portion makes it just as much of a gold-chase as just buying the Precursor outright.

You want them to make the entire process account bound so that everyone else that wants to make one this way is forced to do the exact same things. Why? So that people with gold can’t get it before you. So much for coexisting playstyles.

Ohoni.6057:

True. I never enter these discussions with the intention of changing the minds of those who decide to challenge me. That never seems likely, they’re as set in their ways as I am in mine. Rather, the goal is to expose the flaws in their positions, and refine any actual flaws in my own, so that an impartial observer can come away with a better understanding of the situation.

It took you almost 3 pages to begin refining, then you immediately dropped it once I agreed that you were finally getting somewhere.

Ahh, I missed that. Does liquid gold take into account various sellable mats in the person’s bank/material collection?

It does not, but there’s no stat that really accounts for all fungible items and none of the non-fungible items. Even considering both though, the mean is well ahead of the median.

I was originally saying that making it harder for people to ‘do bad deals’ would also make it harder for people to buy and sell loot. Then in response to that, you admitted that the price would approach equilibrium only because nothing was selling due to no one being willing to ‘do bad deals;’ in other words, comparatively little actual trade would happen under your system because no one will fill the other half of an order/listing, and thus no one getting the items they want.

No, everyone would get what they want, it would just be at a more fair price. The prices would all shift rapidly towards an equilibrium point within the 15% margin, likely within a 5% margin, making them impossible to flip, but perfectly viable for anyone to sell what they do not want, and buy what they do not have. People would only not buy items that are priced at significantly above the equilibrium point, or ordered for significantly lower. For hundreds, if not thousands of items on the TP, there are huge margins in the pricing because people do not really know what the “fair” price is, and have to guess based on the existing price offers.

So you have a problem with other people being able to get items first because they have gold.

When gold is distributed in an uneven manner, yes. It creates an imbalance.

You want them to make the entire process account bound so that everyone else that wants to make one this way is forced to do the exact same things. Why? So that people with gold can’t get it before you. So much for coexisting playstyles.

I would be in favor of having multiple paths, perhaps offering twenty things you could do to advance towards the goal, but only requiring you to complete fifteen of them, or having three different ways to pursue several of the objectives, something along those lines, but yes, having gold should not give you a leg up over players who do not. This concept does not make perfect sense to you for some reason?

Tigaseye.2047:

Nike.2631:

Hey new players, on every page of a thread except the first you can clear the forum bug by clicking on the red page number in the upper left under “add reply” causing the page to reload correctly, instead of putting in a ‘forum bug post’.

Oh, can you?

That’s FAR better then. ><

…and here I was thinking this forum was an embarrassing mess.

How wrong I was.

I’m totally with you they need to fix it. Just pointing out there’s a somewhat more tidy workaround .

Ohoni.6057:

I was originally saying that making it harder for people to ‘do bad deals’ would also make it harder for people to buy and sell loot. Then in response to that, you admitted that the price would approach equilibrium only because nothing was selling due to no one being willing to ‘do bad deals;’ in other words, comparatively little actual trade would happen under your system because no one will fill the other half of an order/listing, and thus no one getting the items they want.

No, everyone would get what they want, it would just be at a more fair price. The prices would all shift rapidly towards an equilibrium point within the 15% margin, likely within a 5% margin, making them impossible to flip, but perfectly viable for anyone to sell what they do not want, and buy what they do not have.

Then tell me, what would be driving this rapid shift? How would eliminating TP traders and making everyone aware of these ‘bad deals’ in any way make an economy move rapidly towards equilibrium? Why would it stop within ~5%? Why, at that point, would people sell to buy orders and buy from sell orders now that (under your theoretical ideal) they understand how it works? Where do you draw the line between a ‘bad deal’ and a ‘good deal,’ and how can this line be objectively derived? How do you even define a ‘bad deal’ and ‘good deal?’

Ohoni.6057:

People would only not buy items that are priced at significantly above the equilibrium point, or ordered for significantly lower.

Another baseless claim, only this time it doesn’t even make sense.

Ohoni.6057:

For hundreds, if not thousands of items on the TP, there are huge margins in the pricing because people do not really know what the “fair” price is, and have to guess based on the existing price offers.

No, they have huge margins because they either haven’t spent enough time or are too slow to have reached equilibrium. Or those that have the item generally value it significantly more than those that don’t in such a way that the two don’t get close.
On this “fair price,” if what people currently want for it and are willing to pay for it aren’t markers of a “fair price,” then what is one and how do people discover it when they currently don’t?

So you have a problem with other people being able to get items first because they have gold.

When gold is distributed in an uneven manner, yes. It creates an imbalance.

Let’s compare:

But I don’t care that you get it first. I don’t mind that at all.

Yeah. You really don’t.
/s

Ohoni.6057:

You want them to make the entire process account bound so that everyone else that wants to make one this way is forced to do the exact same things. Why? So that people with gold can’t get it before you. So much for coexisting playstyles.

I would be in favor of having multiple paths, perhaps offering twenty things you could do to advance towards the goal, but only requiring you to complete fifteen of them, or having three different ways to pursue several of the objectives, something along those lines, but yes, having gold should not give you a leg up over players who do not. This concept does not make perfect sense to you for some reason?

On that last concept: refer to every other opinion and ‘should’ throughout the last couple pages of this discussion. I’m tired of repeating myself on that one.
Okay, so:
-you wanted more ways to acquire high-end items
-Anet adds to the game a new way to make precursors, part of the highest-end gear
-you complain that the new method requires things you don’t want to put in the effort to get
-you still want more ways to get things
Huh.

DeShadowWolf.6854:

-you still want more ways to get things
Huh.

I don’t think it’s just about the number of ways for Ohoni, I think it’s about scaling the way(s) as well, so that anyone can get whatever they want doing whatever they are willing to do, not what Anet would define is necessary to get it.

Luckily, we have no fear this will ever get implemented in GW2 because the economic structure of this game would never support it and there is no (non-exploitable) mechanic that could be implemented to kitten a person to scale the way to their game activities. Basically, the game would require a complete re write of the whole system for questionable return on investment.

These arguments about rewards and how getting them are related to players’ pleasure are solely academic and GW2 isn’t a scientific endeavor.

Ohoni.6057:

You may be right, but your argument here does not support your position. Plugging an exploit is preventing people from cheating the rules, cheating is inherently unfair.

Part of the point I was making is that you feel the making money on the in-game market is some type of “exploit”. I simply showed you that not only is it not an exploit, but your previous suggestions to fix the game would be the same as allowing all players to openly exploit the game so they all can be rich.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m just saying that the average player should have no less access to the things they want than those who are particularly good at the TP. If gold is relatively easy to come by for some, then it should be equally easy to come by for all, regardless of their skills at economics. If you argue that the average player should not have more than he already does, then fair enough, but then TP fatcats should have no more than those other players have either.

Here’s your problem Ohoni. The game already allows all players to be as rich as they want to. Wanze does not exploit the game. He simply sells stuff, and other players simply pay his prices. It’s not rocket science. A vast majority of players choose not to play to make money, even though the mechanics are all there. Example: I told you that you could make $10,000 by rubbing 2 sticks together for 8 hours, or you could make $100 by just telling me the capital of Texas. What you’re doing is taking the $100, and then complaining that it’s not fair for the next guy to get the $10,000. Another real life example of your position would be a McDonald’s burger cook complaining that a doctor at UCLA Medical Center makes a higher salary than him.

Be it real life of your in-game virtual life, we all have choices to make. You can choose not go to college and be a fast-food cook, or you can work hard, get a degree and open more opportunities for yourself. You can choose to do Silver Wastes chest runs or Dragon Stand metas, or you can sit in LA for hours and buy and sell items. Telling Anet to evenly distribute wealth because your chosen activity isn’t efficient at making money isn’t a real solution. This is one of the reasons why so many countries of the same mindset have fallen.

Tigaseye.2047:

~~~ snip ~~~

Jealousy is never a good reason why Anet should cater to the Entitled. Plus, one of the mistakes you and others make here is the assumption that TP trading and game farming are the same thing. These two activities are fundamentally different. One is a Gold Sink that moves existing currency between players, while destroying 15% of it via a tax. The other generates new items and currencies that never existed before.

When you allow players to make more money from farming events or quests, you increase the rate of inflation by a rate equal to the new wealth generation. And because TP playerss’ revenue is based on other player’s wealth, you basically increase their earning potential by the same rate as the new wealth generation. In laymen’s terms, the more money you make, the way more money Wanze will make. So increasing new wealth for everyone achieves absolutely nothing positive. An example of an in-game economy going wrong can be seen in D3. I don’t know if there’s a term to properly describe the insane inflation in that game because everyone was making so much money.

Then tell me, what would be driving this rapid shift? (1)How would eliminating TP traders and making everyone aware of these ‘bad deals’ in any way make an economy move rapidly towards equilibrium? (2)Why would it stop within ~5%? (3)Why, at that point, would people sell to buy orders and buy from sell orders now that (under your theoretical ideal) they understand how it works? Where do you draw the line between a ‘bad deal’ and a ‘good deal,’ and how can this line be objectively derived? How do you even define a ‘bad deal’ and ‘good deal?’

1. Removing TP hustlers wouldn’t help things move towards equilibrium, but the better UI feedback likely would. When people know that the item they want will move/arrive in a timely manner even if they place an order in the middle of the existing values, then the will be more likely to move towards those values.

One value I’d like to see, particularly on craftable items, would be to have a simple line with dots on it, one representing the current buy order price, then another that represents the current sell order price, then another that represents the average price at which that item has actually moved from person to person over the last week (combining both fulfilled buy orders and sell orders), and finally one that indicates the crafting costs based on using those average values for all materials involved, plus the trade fees involved. So basically if you place your pricing at or above this last dot, then you will make money on crafting it, and if you place it less then you will likely lose money crafting it. That might not be the ideal way to display it, but something like that sounds like a good idea.

2. No particular reason it would stop at 5%, it could balance out at 1c difference, the point is that it would be as close to zero as the market would bare, and that is the very best deal for any players that don’t pay attention to the markets, because whatever they do they’ll be getting the best deal available, or close enough to it.

3. Because they would have a better understanding of the risks involved, that placing a slightly lower sell price is almost guaranteed to sell the item before they’d need the money, and at a higher price than just fulfilling the buy order.

4. The “good deal,” for both parties, is when the price arrived at is as close to the highest/lowest amount that most people would be willing to pay. If someone pays considerably more than that, or accepts significantly less, then someone in that exchange is getting a bad deal.

When gold is distributed in an uneven manner, yes. It creates an imbalance.

Let’s compare:

But I don’t care that you get it first. I don’t mind that at all.

Yeah. You really don’t.
/s

And I don’t care if some people get things first, so long as it’s not as far first as the current system allows for. It’s a matter of degrees, not absolutes. You can’t perfectly balance anything out in these cases, but that shouldn’t stop you from trying towards balance.

On that last concept: refer to every other opinion and ‘should’ throughout the last couple pages of this discussion. I’m tired of repeating myself on that one.

Thank God.

Okay, so:
-you wanted more ways to acquire high-end items
-Anet adds to the game a new way to make precursors, part of the highest-end gear
-you complain that the new method requires things you don’t want to put in the effort to get
-you still want more ways to get things
Huh.

Yup.

I don’t think it’s just about the number of ways for Ohoni, I think it’s about scaling the way(s) as well, so that anyone can get whatever they want doing whatever they are willing to do, not what Anet would define is necessary to get it.

Hmm, the way you phrased that I think takes it a bit further than I would. I certainly don’t think that players should be able to “choose your own amount of effort.” I think that the amount of effort should be relatively fixed, I just generally favor solutions in which you can choose various varieties of effort with which to pursue the goal, like having a sprawling building where you can reach the top on the opposite corner by either using hand-cranked elevators and walking straight lines, or taking stairs between the floors, or taking a ramp that spirals around the place, they would each take the same combined amount of effort, but different types of effort.

Separately, I also believe that the amount of effort/cost they ask for certain rewards are just more than they should reasonably ask of ANY player, some combination of RNG, material costs, or busywork that is just inappropriate for the value of the reward in question. I believe the costs involved in those items should come down for ALL players.

And of course thirdly, I believe that the gold economy in this game has been so horribly distorted by market abuse that it should not at all involved in acquiring most high end items anymore. It could have worked, but they did too poor a job of policing the system over the past three years, and it’s really too late to fix it (not that they shouldn’t take what steps they can to try).

These arguments about rewards and how getting them are related to players’ pleasure are solely academic and GW2 isn’t a scientific endeavor.

But it is a business, and it is in their interests to make as much profit off each player as they possibly can. Given that this involves happy players buying things that they do not need, but might want, it is to their benefit to generate as many happy players as possible.

preventing people from cheating the rules, cheating is inherently unfair.

Part of the point I was making is that you feel the making money on the in-game market is some type of “exploit”. I simply showed you that not only is it not an exploit, but your previous suggestions to fix the game would be the same as allowing all players to openly exploit the game so they all can be rich.

I’ve never claimed it was an “exploit” according to ANet. They clearly don’t view it as such. I’m just saying, from the player perspective it’s no different from an exploit, it’s finding a way to achieve higher than average personal gains from an activity, but even worse than most exploits, it does so at the expense of other players. ANet does not currently view this as an exploit, but they could choose to at any time, and I argue that they should do so. Of course the real problem would be if they do recognize that it’s an exploit, but can’t figure out a way to fix it yet, as has been the case with numerous exploits and hacks over the course of the game that have lasted for months or years at a time as well known holes.

Here’s your problem Ohoni. The game already allows all players to be as rich as they want to.

No, that’s just false logic. Just because someone could potentially do something with their account, does not mean that “anyone could do it,” any more than saying that “anyone could win a gold medal in the Decathlon.” Some people are better at manipulating money than others. This really should not confer any significant advantage in an adventure game, but even if you disagree on that, it’s completely insane to argue that it would be fair for it to offer as huge an advantage as it does in this game.

Not every fry cook COULD be a doctor, and it’s rather insulting to everyone who isn’t a doctor for you to suggest otherwise.

Telling Anet to evenly distribute wealth because your chosen activity isn’t efficient at making money isn’t a real solution. This is one of the reasons why so many countries of the same mindset have fallen.

What are you talking about? Socialist countries are some of the best-off countries on Earth, with solid economies and happier and healthiest populations than most anti-social countries. I think you’re specifically referencing the fascist countries, which fell because of their fascism, not their socialism.

When you allow players to make more money from farming events or quests, you increase the rate of inflation by a rate equal to the new wealth generation. And because TP playerss’ revenue is based on other player’s wealth, you basically increase their earning potential by the same rate as the new wealth generation. In laymen’s terms, the more money you make, the way more money Wanze will make.

Which is why if they introduce new faucets, they will also have to introduce more sinks, but more importantly they need to include methods of reducing the profit potential of working the TP, so that this money does not flow up to the fatcats.

Ohoni.6057:

But it is a business, and it is in their interests to make as much profit off each player as they possibly can. Given that this involves happy players buying things that they do not need, but might want, it is to their benefit to generate as many happy players as possible.

Businesses don’t survive on good will and happiness. There’s a balance that needs to be maintained. In MMOs, not only do you need to earn revenue, but you need to retain players. Not all players generate microtransaction revenue. And making a player happy by giving away the house doesn’t automatically lead to increased microtransactions. If the world existed how you wanted it to exist, every person who goes to Vegas would walk away with a lot of money. Vegas would then go bankrupt, and there’s be no more Vegas. Take my analogy, replace “Vegas” with “GW2”, and you have the outcome of what your suggestions would do.

Ohoni.6057:

ANet does not currently view this as an exploit, but they could choose to at any time, and I argue that they should do so.

Comrade, a Free Market can not be described as an exploit. The laws of Supply and Demand work. Some players understand how this works, and that’s how they choose to play the game. Why should Anet say “Ok Wanze, you’ve hit your daily limit on how many players you can satisfy today. Please try again tomorrow.”

Ohoni.6057:

Which is why if they introduce new faucets, they will also have to introduce more sinks, but more importantly they need to include methods of reducing the profit potential of working the TP, so that this money does not flow up to the fatcats.

Your suggestion is akin to asking for the removal of the Trading Post entirely, and replacing it with a glorified merchant. Your idea hurts way more players than it helps, because a vast majority of the players who purchase goods from the TP want instant gratification. Remove the players who provide that instant gratification, and you have angry players who will complain that they have to farm 5,000 Mithril ores themselves. Oh wait…

Nike.2631:

Tigaseye.2047:

Nike.2631:

Hey new players, on every page of a thread except the first you can clear the forum bug by clicking on the red page number in the upper left under “add reply” causing the page to reload correctly, instead of putting in a ‘forum bug post’.

Oh, can you?

That’s FAR better then. ><

…and here I was thinking this forum was an embarrassing mess.

How wrong I was.

I’m totally with you they need to fix it. Just pointing out there’s a somewhat more tidy workaround .

Yeah and I appreciate it and really should have thanked you.

It’s my ongoing annoyance with the bug, not with your suggestion.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Tigaseye.2047:

~~~ snip ~~~

Jealousy is never a good reason why Anet should cater to the Entitled.

For the last time (for me, anyway), jealousy is not the issue, here.

Or even envy, which is the correct word for what you’re assuming here, actually, as it specifically refers to someone’s possessions and/or luck.

Jealousy/envy are not constructive things, by any means, but this is something that is even less constructive than that.

It’s a (justifiable) feeling of injustice and unfairness, that makes people feel undervalued, depressed and/or hopeless.

So much so that, at its worst, they just give up/refuse to cooperate entirely.

Someone who is, supposedly, an expert in psychology should really be able to see the difference.

I shouldn’t need to explain this to you.

At least pure envy might motivate some people to try harder; but, that is not (or not only) what we’re dealing with, here.

That is the entire point.

I’m not even going to bother with the “Entitled” part.

That is just a joke, frankly.

Businesses don’t survive on good will and happiness. There’s a balance that needs to be maintained.

Of course, and nobody is suggesting that that balance should not be maintained. We’re just quibbling over where that balance point would best be. In a game with GW2’s business model, in which they 1. have no monthly fee, so you can play as much or as little, as often or as rarely as you like and not have to justify a mandatory “keep playing” fee, 2. have no “energy” system that limits the amount you can play without spending money, and 3. Do not have cash-only buffs that are absolutely vital to competitive play, their entire income process is based on people wanting to give them money.

Even the most hardcore, 18h356d player can do so without spending a dime, if he doesn’t feel like rewarding their behavior. Instead, ANet has to convince players that the experience is worth not only playing, but also worth giving them money. That requires that you at least like the company and their practices to some degree, and the more that you like them, the less you care about nickle and diming them, and the more likely you’ll be generous in your spending, picking up random junk that you can’t logically justify, but you like it, and they’ve earned it, so why not?

Their pricing model depends on the kindness of strangers.

If the world existed how you wanted it to exist, every person who goes to Vegas would walk away with a lot of money. Vegas would then go bankrupt, and there’s be no more Vegas. Take my analogy, replace “Vegas” with “GW2”, and you have the outcome of what your suggestions would do.

Nope.

Although honestly Vegas is pretty hard to justify.

Comrade, a Free Market can not be described as an exploit. The laws of Supply and Demand work. Some players understand how this works, and that’s how they choose to play the game. Why should Anet say “Ok Wanze, you’ve hit your daily limit on how many players you can satisfy today. Please try again tomorrow.”

Because it keeps the rewards received by each player more in balance and results in a healthier game population with less inequality?

Your suggestion is akin to asking for the removal of the Trading Post entirely, and replacing it with a glorified merchant.

Honestly I’d prefer that to the alternative of leaving it as is, but that’s not what I’m asking for. Supply would still be determined by how many of the items the players bring into existence, demand would still be determined by how many people want that thing, all I’d be doing is reducing the role of the middleman taking his cut in the middle for providing no actual value to the scenario.

Your idea hurts way more players than it helps, because a vast majority of the players who purchase goods from the TP want instant gratification. Remove the players who provide that instant gratification, and you have angry players who will complain that they have to farm 5,000 Mithril ores themselves. Oh wait…

Nobody’s talking about removing the people who farm those 5,000 mithril ores. Those 5,000 mithril ores would still get farmed, and still get put on the market, and the people doing it would make out just as well, likely better than under the current market, as would their customers (one or the other might end up doing slightly worse, but between the two of them they would make out better than they would currently).

What would be removed is the people who buy those 5,000 mithril ores at one price, and relist it at a higher price (either immediately or at a later date), forcing the people who actually want to use those mithril ores to spend more for them or do without, while the people who did mine those ores would not be seeing any of that profit. If someone gets a better deal in a transaction, it should at the very least either be the end-user of that item, OR the original creator of that item, not someone who’s only contribution was in making the deal worse for both of them.

Actually, I had a really funny way of creating a Diminishing Returns scheme for Trading Post players:

The more money you move through the trading post in a given period (I favor tracking the last 5 days as a starting point but John Smith usually has a much more interesting vantage point for these kinds of decisions/discussion) the greater the chance of your transaction being usurped by a “phantom seller”. That is to say when someone offers to buy one of your items there’s a small (but escalating as you play the market more and more) chance that the market itself generates one of those items and sells it to that buyer ahead of you.

It acts as a bit of a nuclear control rod cooling down an individual’s speed of concentrating coin, creates a new trickling faucet for goods rather than coin entering the economy, and sinks out gold WAY faster than just 15% per transaction because the market takes ALL of that coin and disappears it.

I don’t feel it’s necessary, but it’s important to understand that in a virtual economy there are things you can do that would reflect the behavior a much larger real economy.

Tigaseye.2047:

It’s a (justifiable) feeling of injustice and unfairness, that makes people feel undervalued, depressed and/or hopeless.

There is no injustice or unfairness, but rather laziness. Asking Anet to give you something because you don’t want to use existing mechanics to get for yourself is pretty much Entitlement.

Ohoni.6057:

Nope.

Yup

Ohoni.6057:

Because it keeps the rewards received by each player more in balance and results in a healthier game population with less inequality?

Nope. Entitlement leads to ruin. Just look at Greece.

Ohoni.6057:

all I’d be doing is reducing the role of the middleman taking his cut in the middle for providing no actual value to the scenario.

No value? Tell that to the thousands of players who can shave hours off of their game play by purchasing what they want from another player who does have what they need.

Ohoni.6057:

What would be removed is the people who buy those 5,000 mithril ores at one price, and relist it at a higher price (either immediately or at a later date), forcing the people who actually want to use those mithril ores to spend more for them or do without, while the people who did mine those ores would not be seeing any of that profit. If someone gets a better deal in a transaction, it should at the very least either be the end-user of that item, OR the original creator of that item, not someone who’s only contribution was in making the deal worse for both of them.

Nope. The problem is not only buyers who have a problem with instant gratification, but also the farmers. If they sell their stock of inventory for too low a price, what’s wrong with me coming in and relisting them for the current market value? They want the money faster, so they sell low to get rid of their Mithril. I’m more than happy to pay 50c for an item worth 75c.

Edit – And no, that’s not an exploit. That’s called business. Feel free to undercut me by selling the same item for 74c.

Edit 2 – I’m gonna go sleep, but I’d like to leave one last thing for you to think about. What you guys want isn’t a game. You guys want a handout. That makes for bad business. I remember when Game Genie came out over 20 years ago. It allowed me to bypass levels, get unlimited money, and have god-mode. I fell into the trap of instant gratification. Once I did all I could with my cheat codes, I stopped playing those games. I had to go out and buy more games, simply because I did all could already, and there was nothing left for me to do.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Tigaseye.2047:

It’s a (justifiable) feeling of injustice and unfairness, that makes people feel undervalued, depressed and/or hopeless.

There is no injustice or unfairness, but rather laziness. Asking Anet to give you something because you don’t want to use existing mechanics to get for yourself is pretty much Entitlement.

No, it’s not laziness either.

Not wanting to play one, EXTREMELY inactive part of the game, is not “laziness”.

Not jealousy, not laziness, not “Entitlement” (why on earth give that an upper case E, BTW?).

I’ve explained exactly what it is.

I’ve also said, previously, that most people simply don’t enjoy playing the TP, so won’t want to do that.

If you still can’t understand any of this, or refuse to admit that you do, I obviously can’t help you.

That could actually be kind of fun. It would be like a “don’t push your luck.” game. I don’t see how it would have a major impact on the trader though, since all it would do is snake a single purchase, you’d still have your item up for sale and if one person would have bought it then someone else would come along as well, it would at most slow you down a tiny bit unless the rate became very high.

It might be even more interesting if, when you get your DR scaling relatively high, if you list something at a sell price, it instead goes automatically to the person with the highest buy order, and you only get back what they offered (although you do get a refund of the listing fee difference). The DR value would be based on gold earned, and reduced by gold impacted by the “Robin Hood,” so if you tended to move dozens fo gold per day, and the transaction that got snaked was on a rare item that sold for 20s instead of 30s, then the DR would only be reduced a tiny bit, whereas if you placed a Precursor and it ended up going for a couple hundred gold less than the price you listed, it would wipe out a ton of DR and make similar events less likely to occur for a while.

This would have a number of interesting effects. First, it would of course add some real dramatic tension to high volume trading. Second, it gives some players a much better deal than they expected, which is likely to make them happy. Third, since these deals go to the highest buy price, it encourages buy prices to rise to the highest sustainable level, since even a “hail Mary” price might be fulfilled by the mechanism. That would have a secondary impact of reducing margins, which reduces the effectiveness of flipping, and also gives people a much more accurate idea of the true value of the item, since the price would be more likely to rise until it hit a true “max reasonable price.”

Tigaseye.2047:

I’ve also said, previously, that most people simply don’t enjoy playing the TP, so won’t want to do that.

You don’t want to play a part of the game that allows you to make a lot of money, so you want Anet to give it to you for no effort? That’s Entitlement. Not sure why you don’t understand this. Let me quote myself so you can see a real life example:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Example: I told you that you could make $10,000 by rubbing 2 sticks together for 8 hours, or you could make $100 by just telling me the capital of Texas. What you’re doing is taking the $100, and then complaining that it’s not fair for the next guy to get the $10,000.

Edit – You may not understand my analogy, so I’ll break it down. GW2 has mechanics in place that let’s you buy something or sell something at whatever price you want. If you don’t want to sell an item that another player is willing to pay for, that’s your choice. No one is forcing you to sell the item. But that also means you don’t get to complain about an “issue” that you created for yourself. No one forced you to take the $100 when you could have had $10,000.

Ohoni.6057:

since the price would be more likely to rise until it hit a true “max reasonable price.”

This last part made me smile. Your “reasonable price” is not my “reasonable price”. All it takes is for one single player out of hundreds of thousands to agree that my price is reasonable, and that’s all that matters.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Tigaseye.2047:

I’ve also said, previously, that most people simply don’t enjoy playing the TP, so won’t want to do that.

You don’t want to play a part of the game that allows you to make a lot of money, so you want Anet to give it to you for no effort? That’s Entitlement. Not sure why you don’t understand this. Let me quote myself so you can see a real life example:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Example: I told you that you could make $10,000 by rubbing 2 sticks together for 8 hours, or you could make $100 by just telling me the capital of Texas. What you’re doing is taking the $100, and then complaining that it’s not fair for the next guy to get the $10,000.

Smooth, I’m not going to carry on with this farce of a conversation for much longer.

This is a game.

People have to enjoy themselves, at least somewhat, to want to keep playing it.

If people actively dislike standing around in LA, flipping things on the TP, they will not continue to play for long, if that is the only well-paid option.

Now, as far as I see it, Anet have three possible solutions:

1. Make other, more popular, activities (ideally, all of them) more rewarding – not, necessarily, quite as rewarding as flipping the TP can be, but at least almost.

2. Limit the amount people can make by playing the TP, in some way.

3. A little of both of the above.

You telling people, repeatedly, that they are jealous/lazy/“Entitled” for not wanting to flip the TP, in a game, all day long won’t change anything.

If enough people are unhappy, they will just leave.

Tigaseye.2047:

This is a game.

It’s a game to you, but a business to NCSoft. Big difference.

Tigaseye.2047:

People have to enjoy themselves, at least somewhat, to want to keep playing it.

GW2 had a big increase of players when HoT went live. That seems to say people are enjoying the new content.

Tigaseye.2047:

If people actively dislike standing around in LA, flipping things on the TP, they will not continue to play for long, if that is the only well-paid option.

False. That’s only how you feel.

Tigaseye.2047:

Now, as far as I see it, Anet have three possible solutions:

1. Make other, more popular, activities (ideally, all of them) more rewarding – not, necessarily, quite as rewarding as flipping the TP can be, but at least almost.

You’re not Entitled to making as much money as a TP player, as you can’t compare other activities to TP trading. Scroll up in this thread for an explanation as to why there’s a difference. Your whole argument fails because you’re comparing apples to an airplane.

Tigaseye.2047:

2. Limit the amount people can make by playing the TP, in some way.

3. A little of both of the above.

Anet will never do this to a Free Market.

Tigaseye.2047:

If enough people are unhappy, they will just leave.

GW2 has no subscription fees. They’re free to come back at anytime. Anet will never delete their accounts, items, or progression unless specifically asked to.

Edit – You may not understand my analogy, so I’ll break it down. GW2 has mechanics in place that let’s you buy something or sell something at whatever price you want. If you don’t want to sell an item that another player is willing to pay for, that’s your choice. No one is forcing you to sell the item. But that also means you don’t get to complain about an “issue” that you created for yourself. No one forced you to take the $100 when you could have had $10,000.

Yes,. but it’s not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. Yes, you never have to buy or sell at the prices given to you, but if you like “yolo” it and put whatever price you think is fair, without any regard to market conditions, then chances are that the transaction will never complete, or at least not for a very long time.

If you’re going to push the system effectively, to get the best prices for the item that you can reasonably get, you need to have a better than zero grasp of how well that item tends to perform. This requires a level of research and knowledge that at the very least could be said to be more than what an average adventure game player is particularly interested in acquiring. Ideally you would also concede fairly plain point that not everyone is capable of judging these factors as well as others, no matter how much they might apply themselves to the task, and it’s unreasonable for the privileged to take advantage of that fact.

And again, the problem is not that these players can turn their skill and experience into advantage, that they can benefit by being more knowledgeable than the other guy, the problem is entirely in the DEGREE of advantage it offers them over other game types and skills, that not only does it earn them more money, it earns them WAY more money, relative to time and effort involved.

The problem is not that anyone “forced you to take the $100 when you could have had $10,000,” it’s that you have no idea whether the best you could reasonably get is $10,000 or $101, nor should you really have to.

This last part made me smile. Your “reasonable price” is not my “reasonable price”. All it takes is for one single player out of hundreds of thousands to agree that my price is reasonable, and that’s all that matters.

Sure, and if he wants to do that he’d be first in line, and he’d pay that listed price. He’d still come out ahead of it he just took the sell order, but of course once he’s cleared off the board, other players would move in to compete for the new highest price.

You telling people, repeatedly, that they are jealous/lazy/“Entitled” for not wanting to flip the TP, in a game, all day long won’t change anything.

Yup. If people want to play a market-flipping game, they should play a game that is just about market flipping, they should not be messing up the economy of GW2 in the process.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s a game to you, but a business to NCSoft. Big difference.

No, it’s not a “big difference”.

In fact, it’s not any kind of difference.

It is both things, simultaneously.

It is a game to the players and a business to Anet.

They’re not mutually exclusive things.

GW2 had a big increase of players when HoT went live. That seems to say people are enjoying the new content.

What has that got to do with this specific subject?

Actually, if the increase was when it went live, all it says is that a lot of new and/or returning players wanted to try the new content.

I’m not saying that that isn’t the case, or that some (or most) aren’t still enjoying, at least some of, it now.

I’m just saying that, if people are unhappy with the amount of gold they can make, by playing the parts of the game they enjoy, some (or all) of them might decide to leave, sooner or later.

In other words, I’m stating (what should be) the obvious.

False. That’s only how you feel.

No, it’s not only how I feel.

I’m not even talking about myself, here.

If you notice, I didn’t even bother contributing to this thread for almost a week, after my initial responses.

I support the subject of the thread, but life is too short to dwell on these things, for too long, in a game.

Afterall, unlike life, you can just leave games – which is kind of my point.

No, I don’t particularly enjoy ripping people off on the TP, as it happens, but I know for a fact I’m not alone in that.

I come from WoW – I didn’t enjoy auction house stuff, there, either – even though I was pretty “successful”, for the relatively short time I bothered with it and even though there isn’t such a direct correlation between real money and gold, there.

Or wasn’t, at the time.

But, just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you enjoy it, think it’s morally good, or want to have to do it.

Again, this is a game.

If I’m not having fun, I just leave games, sooner or later

…and I’m not alone.

WoW lost half its population, in a few months, when people were unhappy with WoD.

I mean, honestly, what a ridiculous conversation.

Having to explain that people might leave games if they’re not happy.

For my next trick, I will be explaining how night follows day.

You’re not Entitled to making as much money as a TP player, as you can’t compare other activities to TP trading. Scroll up in this thread for an explanation as to why there’s a difference. Your whole argument fails because you’re comparing apples to an airplane.

It’s not a question of “Entitlement” – seriously, wth is with the “E”?

It’s not a proper noun, you know.

There isn’t an NPC called Entitlement I should know about, somewhere, is there? xD

…and as far as that goes, the game makers can do anything they like.

For example, if they wanted, they could bring in a swingeing income tax and/or a capital gains tax and/or tax you on your entire in-game capital.

They can do anything they like.

Now, that might be a mistake, if it risked annoying more people than it pleased.

But, quite honestly, it probably wouldn’t and they could do it.

Especially if they, simultaneously, gave people more, active, ways to make more gold.

Then they would be removing gold from the economy, in one way and reintroducing it, in another.

Thus not causing any additional gold to enter the system.

Which, I believe was your concern?

That’s called redistributing wealth, as I’m sure you know.

Anet will never do this to a Free Market.

Really?

If not, they would be going against what virtually all other real life economies do, to one extent or another, on a regular basis.

I know Anet already take a small cut, with the TP fees, but they could do far more to very successful TP players, than that, if they liked.

Not saying they necessarily should, or shouldn’t, but of course they could.

Either way, there need to be far more ways than one to make decent gold than just playing the TP.

Or, things need to be made more equal, in some way.

GW2 has no subscription fees. They’re free to come back at anytime. Anet will never delete their accounts, items, or progression unless specifically asked to.

That’s irrelevant and you know it.

If enough people stop playing, or play far less, the game dies.

As you say, this is a business to Anet.

They can’t allow that to happen.

Tigaseye, you’ve been making some really great posts. Sadly the daytraders are incapable of understanding your points. They’re rich, so kitten you (in many ways the economy in GW2 and the arguments and insults here seem like a microcosm of the real world economic issues, with the well off throwing around words like lazy and entitled. And to me that’s one of the biggest flaws in this game. A lot of us struggle with finances in the real world. Who the heck wants to log into a game and have the same worries!?) I honestly think some of them possess zero empathy (laughable for someone who thinks he is an expert in psychology), are unable to understand that people have different interests and that a good game should cater to multiple interests (regarding fun, rewards, etc.) They’ve got theirs and since they enjoy that method of money making, which also happens to be the best, then everyone should too. It’s ludicrous.

And honestly, I wish they would just go and play EVE already…

^ Thank you, that’s very kind of you, Loth.

Exactly – most people come to games as an escape from real life.

I know MMOs tend to reflect more aspects of real life than a typical non-MMO game does.

But that obviously doesn’t mean that most people will be content with an MMO which places too much emphasise on the financial wheeling and dealing side of life, to the detriment of everything else.

Lothirieth.3408:

Tigaseye, you’ve been making some really great posts. Sadly the daytraders are incapable of understanding your points. They’re rich, so kitten you (in many ways the economy in GW2 and the arguments and insults here seem like a microcosm of the real world economic issues, with the well off throwing around words like lazy and entitled. And to me that’s one of the biggest flaws in this game. A lot of us struggle with finances in the real world. Who the heck wants to log into a game and have the same worries!?) I honestly think some of them possess zero empathy (laughable for someone who thinks he is an expert in psychology), are unable to understand that people have different interests and that a good game should cater to multiple interests (regarding fun, rewards, etc.) They’ve got theirs and since they enjoy that method of money making, which also happens to be the best, then everyone should too. It’s ludicrous.

And honestly, I wish they would just go and play EVE already…

I have several k of gold and I don’t flip the TP.

Ohoni.6057:

No, rational socialism at best. It’s not a complete leveling of every player to the exact same level of wealth, it’s just balancing things more toward a level playing field. Slight income inequality vs. extreme income inequality.

And there we have it – this is why we can’t have nice things.

Enjoy your “rational” socialism. I think all further discussion is pointless.

Tigaseye.2047:

Cyninja.2954:

Ohoni.6057:

So getting the account bound mats like spirit shards, laurels, karma, bloodstone dust, empyrial fragments, dragonite ore for the old stat combos as well as airship oil, auric dust, obsi shards and ley line sparks for the new ones is considered by you no problem at all, while listing your loot for twice or triple the value you usually do is considered impossible.

Right.

I think you simply lost perspective on some things.

That you seem to believe you’ve made a point here just shows that you really don’t understand how the game’s economy works for the average player.

If I had to pick as to who has the better understanding of the ingame economy, it definately be Wanze over you Ohoni.

I’m sure many forum regulars will agree on this point no matter if they are sympathetic to Wanze or not. In order to effectively “play the trading post” one must understand the market. Your theories are nice and dandy, but so far all you’ve been advocating for is “free stuff”. That doesn’t show a lot of understanding.

Haven’t been following this thread, as it was just too depressing to even think about, but just thought I should say that I don’t agree with you, at all.

Both of them probably understand how markets work, it’s just that Ohoni also understands how this affects the players who either don’t understand, or choose not to participate.

The problem is that IRL, even in this unfair world, most people are not forced to gamble on the stock market.

Or to be a business entrepreneur.

Most people can, or should, be able to make a decent living in other ways.

Ways that, hopefully, inspire and challenge them; or, at least, don’t bore and depress them.

So, if you make the only option to make decent money, in a game, something most people either don’t find easy, or don’t enjoy doing, you are inevitably limiting the appeal of that game to a relatively small number of people.

Accusing anyone, who dares to point this out, of being ignorant and/or suffering from sour grapes, is doing them, Anet and most of the other players of the game a disservice.

You mean Ohoni pretends to realize and care about how the regular player is affected in order to further his own personal agenda.
You have zero indication that he has any reason other than his own benefit for pushing these ideas and claims that he makes.

So, if you make the only option to make decent money, in a game, something most people either don’t find easy, or don’t enjoy doing, you are inevitably limiting the appeal of that game to a relatively small number of people.

Except the game has other ways to make decent money fast – Gems to Gold. It is probably intended that the alternatives are not so pleasant in order to incentivize people to buy Gems and convert to gold.

Let’s not forget how Dungeon rewards were nerfed and then no other rewards were buffed.

Tigaseye.2047:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

There are no “flaws” to our positions.

What a bold statement.

Even verified experts, in professional situations, are normally far too cautious to make claims like that.

I won’t comment on the rest of it, suffice to say that I do believe that you should strive to make the majority of players happy, I do believe doing that makes for a better game; but I don’t believe you have to make everyone instantly “rich”, or give everyone what they want immediately, to make that happen.

Also, I don’t fall into the category of customer you describe, at all.

I have known people who do, they certainly exist – but this assumption, that certain people seem to have, that everyone does, is incorrect.

Ohoni.6057:

Wanze has more money than dozens of players put together, and he apparently put 10K hours in. You greatly underestimate your fellow players. I’m not saying that players should be given “everything for free,” I’m just saying that the average player should have no less access to the things they want than those who are particularly good at the TP. If gold is relatively easy to come by for some, then it should be equally easy to come by for all, regardless of their skills at economics. If you argue that the average player should not have more than he already does, then fair enough, but then TP fatcats should have no more than those other players have either.

Quite.

The fundamental point, here, is that if it is deemed OK, by Anet, for us to make lots of gold via TP flipping, then it should also be deemed OK, by Anet, for us to make roughly the same amount of gold, via doing pretty much any other (legal) in-game activity.

…and if it is not deemed OK, by Anet,. for us to make lots of gold via most other in-game activities, why should it continue to be deemed OK for us to do it via TP flipping, alone?

…and whatever the answer is to that, how many people actually want to play a TP mini game, all day every day, or know they are seriously wasting their time (gold-wise), doing other things?

Especially in a game where gold = real money.

…and if people know that, why on earth should they continue wasting their time playing a game like that, unless they just happen to be one of the relatively few who enjoy TP flipping?

You see, guys?

It is important to cater to the majority of players, if for no other reason than they will be bloody annoyed once they figure out you aren’t and may just refuse to continue to play ball.

…and now, we really are back to the original subject of this thread.

Except there’s one small thing you didn’t realize.

Anet don’t really care how gold is distributed – only how much of it there is in the economy.
The TP flipping is fine because TP flipping actually takes gold away from the economy since the TP fees are a gold sink. So basically people working the TP are making gold for themselves while also reducing inflation by sinking gold via the TP fees.
This is fine for Anet because regardless how the gold is spread out there’s always less of it.

Anet is not fine with other methods of making gold ( see dungeon nerf) because it creates inflation by generating gold out of thin air and throwing it in the game.

Also – TP flipping is hard – very few can do it successfully so it doesn’t really matter to them if some people can do it well – most people can.

An activity that was more accessible in-game that made a lot of gold is pretty bad for them because it would allow people to get a lot of gold and possibly give up on buying gems to turn them into gold or even convert the loads of gold into gems and not use real money in order to get their Gem store items.

So my point is this – Anet is not in favor of activities that allow people to make gold easily if those activities generate gold out of nothingness or are very accessible to a lot of players.

It is important to cater to the majority of players, if for no other reason than they will be bloody annoyed once they figure out you aren’t and may just refuse to continue to play ball.

Except this will never happen because guess what – the average player is so out of touch with everything it’s not even funny.

The 15% tax should have been more than enough to prevent TP flipping from becoming a major source of income.
If some players ingame are making tons of gold through this system, that’s entirely other players’ fault. For most cases, I would even say that it has little to do with not knowing what the “fair” price is … tons of buy order fills are just plain stupid.

Lothirieth.3408:

I honestly think some of them possess zero empathy (laughable for someone who thinks he is an expert in psychology), are unable to understand that people have different interests and that a good game should cater to multiple interests

First of all being an expert in psychology has nothing to do with having empathy or not. You can understand something without experiencing it first hand.

Second of all I understand that you have different interests – what you fail to understand is that while I do understand – I and many others do not care.

Just because people don’t agree with your view on things doesn’t mean they don’t understand – I fully understand how you and Ohoni and Tigaseye see the game – but your way of being and your enjoyment has no value to me – furthermore the proposed suggestions aim to change the game and threaten my enjoyment of it – which I care about a great deal.

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

Cyninja.2954:

Ohoni.6057:

So getting the account bound mats like spirit shards, laurels, karma, bloodstone dust, empyrial fragments, dragonite ore for the old stat combos as well as airship oil, auric dust, obsi shards and ley line sparks for the new ones is considered by you no problem at all, while listing your loot for twice or triple the value you usually do is considered impossible.

Right.

I think you simply lost perspective on some things.

That you seem to believe you’ve made a point here just shows that you really don’t understand how the game’s economy works for the average player.

If I had to pick as to who has the better understanding of the ingame economy, it definately be Wanze over you Ohoni.

I’m sure many forum regulars will agree on this point no matter if they are sympathetic to Wanze or not. In order to effectively “play the trading post” one must understand the market. Your theories are nice and dandy, but so far all you’ve been advocating for is “free stuff”. That doesn’t show a lot of understanding.

Haven’t been following this thread, as it was just too depressing to even think about, but just thought I should say that I don’t agree with you, at all.

Both of them probably understand how markets work, it’s just that Ohoni also understands how this affects the players who either don’t understand, or choose not to participate.

The problem is that IRL, even in this unfair world, most people are not forced to gamble on the stock market.

Or to be a business entrepreneur.

Most people can, or should, be able to make a decent living in other ways.

Ways that, hopefully, inspire and challenge them; or, at least, don’t bore and depress them.

So, if you make the only option to make decent money, in a game, something most people either don’t find easy, or don’t enjoy doing, you are inevitably limiting the appeal of that game to a relatively small number of people.

Accusing anyone, who dares to point this out, of being ignorant and/or suffering from sour grapes, is doing them, Anet and most of the other players of the game a disservice.

You mean Ohoni pretends to realize and care about how the regular player is affected in order to further his own personal agenda.
You have zero indication that he has any reason other than his own benefit for pushing these ideas and claims that he makes.

So, if you make the only option to make decent money, in a game, something most people either don’t find easy, or don’t enjoy doing, you are inevitably limiting the appeal of that game to a relatively small number of people.

Except the game has other ways to make decent money fast – Gems to Gold. It is probably intended that the alternatives are not so pleasant in order to incentivize people to buy Gems and convert to gold.

Let’s not forget how Dungeon rewards were nerfed and then no other rewards were buffed.

Oh, hello Harper, what a surprise to see you here…

…and what, exactly, would his “agenda” be?

I’m all ears (or eyes, or whatever).

Well, if they want us to buy gems, all the more reason I would have thought, to make the TP flipping less rewarding?

Why leave that way to make gold unaffected, while all the other ways, including ones which are far less effective, are nerfed?

At the end of the day, yes they want us to buy gold, but they have to make sure they have a game left for us to want to buy gold for.

Harper.4173:

what you fail to understand is that while I do understand – I and many others do not care.

…and here we have it, ladies and gentlemen.

Straight from the Harper’s mouth.

He doesn’t care and doesn’t care who knows it.

You know what, Harper?

Don’t bother to get back to me.

I and many others don’t care.

Ohoni.6057:

But it is a business, and it is in their interests to make as much profit off each player as they possibly can. Given that this involves happy players buying things that they do not need, but might want, it is to their benefit to generate as many happy players as possible.

Actually, no. It’s in their best interests to make as much profit as they can as reliably as possible for as long as possible, but this doesn’t necessarily mean raising the profit gained from as many players as possible. If they can make more courting the whales, then that’s what they’re going to do.

Tigaseye.2047:

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

Cyninja.2954:

Ohoni.6057:

So getting the account bound mats like spirit shards, laurels, karma, bloodstone dust, empyrial fragments, dragonite ore for the old stat combos as well as airship oil, auric dust, obsi shards and ley line sparks for the new ones is considered by you no problem at all, while listing your loot for twice or triple the value you usually do is considered impossible.

Right.

I think you simply lost perspective on some things.

That you seem to believe you’ve made a point here just shows that you really don’t understand how the game’s economy works for the average player.

If I had to pick as to who has the better understanding of the ingame economy, it definately be Wanze over you Ohoni.

I’m sure many forum regulars will agree on this point no matter if they are sympathetic to Wanze or not. In order to effectively “play the trading post” one must understand the market. Your theories are nice and dandy, but so far all you’ve been advocating for is “free stuff”. That doesn’t show a lot of understanding.

Haven’t been following this thread, as it was just too depressing to even think about, but just thought I should say that I don’t agree with you, at all.

Both of them probably understand how markets work, it’s just that Ohoni also understands how this affects the players who either don’t understand, or choose not to participate.

The problem is that IRL, even in this unfair world, most people are not forced to gamble on the stock market.

Or to be a business entrepreneur.

Most people can, or should, be able to make a decent living in other ways.

Ways that, hopefully, inspire and challenge them; or, at least, don’t bore and depress them.

So, if you make the only option to make decent money, in a game, something most people either don’t find easy, or don’t enjoy doing, you are inevitably limiting the appeal of that game to a relatively small number of people.

Accusing anyone, who dares to point this out, of being ignorant and/or suffering from sour grapes, is doing them, Anet and most of the other players of the game a disservice.

You mean Ohoni pretends to realize and care about how the regular player is affected in order to further his own personal agenda.
You have zero indication that he has any reason other than his own benefit for pushing these ideas and claims that he makes.

So, if you make the only option to make decent money, in a game, something most people either don’t find easy, or don’t enjoy doing, you are inevitably limiting the appeal of that game to a relatively small number of people.

Except the game has other ways to make decent money fast – Gems to Gold. It is probably intended that the alternatives are not so pleasant in order to incentivize people to buy Gems and convert to gold.

Let’s not forget how Dungeon rewards were nerfed and then no other rewards were buffed.

Oh, hello Harper, what a surprise to see you here…

…and what, exactly, would his “agenda” be?

I’m all ears (or eyes, or whatever).

Well, if they want us to buy gems, all the more reason I would have thought, to make the TP flipping less rewarding?

Why leave that way to make gold unaffected, while all the other ways, including ones which are far less effective, are nerfed?

At the end of the day, yes they want us to buy gold, but they have to make sure they have a game left for us to want to buy gold for.

Harper.4173:

what you fail to understand is that while I do understand – I and many others do not care.

…and here we have it, ladies and gentlemen.

Straight from the Harper’s mouth.

He doesn’t care and doesn’t care who knows it.

You know what, Harper?

Don’t bother to get back to me.

I and many others don’t care.

His agenda is the same as everyone else’s – but at least most other players aren’t hiding it behind “the masses” as all would-be communist ( excuse me – he prefers rational socialist) sympathizers do.

He wants to change the game to better suit him and work more towards his advantage. By promoting his vision he hopes to find support from others and perhaps attempt to make a change. It’s been done before – no change will come but people still try.

TP flipping being rewarding is good because it’s allowing them to control the economy – more flips = more gold being taken out of the economy.
Plus – through flipping only a few truly profit – and that doesn’t matter when most players aren’t affected by it being too lazy, uninterested or incapable to flip successfully.

I am profoundly baffled by your statement regarding my caring. Did you expect me to care? Do you care about me?

Do you honestly believe you’re more than a walking talking NPC for the majority of the people you meet in game?

Harper.4173:

His agenda is the same as everyone else’s – but at least most other players aren’t hiding it behind “the masses” as all would-be communist ( excuse me – he prefers rational socialist) sympathizers do.

He wants to change the game to better suit him and work more towards his advantage. By promoting his vision he hopes to find support from others and perhaps attempt to make a change. It’s been done before – no change will come but people still try.

TP flipping being rewarding is good because it’s allowing them to control the economy – more flips = more gold being taken out of the economy.
Plus – through flipping only a few truly profit – and that doesn’t matter when most players aren’t affected by it being too lazy, uninterested or incapable to flip successfully.

I am profoundly baffled by your statement regarding my caring. Did you expect me to care? Do you care about me?

Do you honestly believe you’re more than a walking talking NPC for the majority of the people you meet in game?

Of course you’re “profoundly baffled” Harper, because you’re not like most of the rest of us.

Yes, most of us do care.

The only people I don’t care about, at all, are people who don’t care about other people.

Yes, there are quite a lot of them in MMOs, unfortunately.

Probably due to the fact that the real world, understandably, doesn’t react well to their kind.

Far easier to hide-out in games, or on the real life stock market etc..

The thing is, much as you’re trying to accuse Ohoni of wanting to change the game, to suit himself, the truth is it wouldn’t make his life any better than it could otherwise be, if he was like you.

He’s, clearly, more than bright enough and more than dedicated enough to the game to work the TP, just like you do.

He just morally objects to the idea of a few people becoming very rich, ingame, while others either can’t, or don’t want to, do what it takes to follow suit.

Whereas you, Harper…

You just want everything your own way, for your own totally selfish reasons and freely admit you don’t care, at all, about other players.

I know which one I prefer, by far.

Oh and BTW, communism and socialism are not the same thing, at all.

I live in Western Europe and people would be absolutely furious that you didn’t know the difference, or falsely tried to pretend you didn’t.

Not that I expect you care.

Harper.4173:

Let’s not forget how Dungeon rewards were nerfed and then no other rewards were buffed.

They added map rewards in the old maps and the new maps have even better rewards.

It’s not clear if the amount of gold flowing into the economy is more or less than before the Dungeon nerf, but there are certainly more materials flowing into the economy (and more sinks as well).

Basically, they took the dungeon rewards and spread them out over much more content.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Entitlement leads to ruin. Just look at Greece.

Holy kitten.
Well, I agree that entitlement is not a good thing, but that Greece comparison made me bang my head against the wall. You’ve obviously got no idea what you’re talking about.

I believe the OP is misguided by focusing on the gold aspect of the economy, which except for high end items is nowhere near as important for the in-game economy now as the zone-specific account bound currencies and the time-gated materials for Guild construction. As an earlier poster noted:

For the most part, the game accomplishes that standard of wealth very well: even with a bunch of alts, getting an Exotic/Ascended mix is not very difficult if you play a little bit each day.

As far as the gold goes, even if you could evenly redistribute all the in-game property, in no time, those that defer short-term gratification for long term saving (like Wanze) will have more property because they invest what they earn in things that will bring them more returns in the future rather than things that will give them personal satisfaction.

The only way to even partially fix that would be to offer an in-game TP brokerage so people without the skills or time to play the TP could invest and have someone manage their money. (And that would be too rife for scams to actually implement).

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

Cyninja.2954:

Ohoni.6057:

So getting the account bound mats like spirit shards, laurels, karma, bloodstone dust, empyrial fragments, dragonite ore for the old stat combos as well as airship oil, auric dust, obsi shards and ley line sparks for the new ones is considered by you no problem at all, while listing your loot for twice or triple the value you usually do is considered impossible.

Right.

I think you simply lost perspective on some things.

That you seem to believe you’ve made a point here just shows that you really don’t understand how the game’s economy works for the average player.

If I had to pick as to who has the better understanding of the ingame economy, it definately be Wanze over you Ohoni.

I’m sure many forum regulars will agree on this point no matter if they are sympathetic to Wanze or not. In order to effectively “play the trading post” one must understand the market. Your theories are nice and dandy, but so far all you’ve been advocating for is “free stuff”. That doesn’t show a lot of understanding.

Haven’t been following this thread, as it was just too depressing to even think about, but just thought I should say that I don’t agree with you, at all.

Both of them probably understand how markets work, it’s just that Ohoni also understands how this affects the players who either don’t understand, or choose not to participate.

The problem is that IRL, even in this unfair world, most people are not forced to gamble on the stock market.

Or to be a business entrepreneur.

Most people can, or should, be able to make a decent living in other ways.

Ways that, hopefully, inspire and challenge them; or, at least, don’t bore and depress them.

So, if you make the only option to make decent money, in a game, something most people either don’t find easy, or don’t enjoy doing, you are inevitably limiting the appeal of that game to a relatively small number of people.

Accusing anyone, who dares to point this out, of being ignorant and/or suffering from sour grapes, is doing them, Anet and most of the other players of the game a disservice.

You mean Ohoni pretends to realize and care about how the regular player is affected in order to further his own personal agenda.
You have zero indication that he has any reason other than his own benefit for pushing these ideas and claims that he makes.

So, if you make the only option to make decent money, in a game, something most people either don’t find easy, or don’t enjoy doing, you are inevitably limiting the appeal of that game to a relatively small number of people.

Except the game has other ways to make decent money fast – Gems to Gold. It is probably intended that the alternatives are not so pleasant in order to incentivize people to buy Gems and convert to gold.

Let’s not forget how Dungeon rewards were nerfed and then no other rewards were buffed.

PvE was buffed with a gold faucet, the shiny baubles worth 30 silver each. Do events in the right maps and get an extra 30 silver.

It might not sound like a lot but spread across all the players doing events in those maps and it probably replaces the gold coming into the economy from dungeon runners. The big difference is that it’s a steady drip to players of open world content rather than the bigger chunk to the dungeon runners.

More thoughts:

• A society which coddles its members is asking for decadence. A game which coddles its players is disrespecting their intelligence.
• An attempt to approximate earning potential across all play styles would of necessity add faucets to the game — either gold faucets or item faucets. This would require more item (material) sinks and/or gold sinks. Without sinks item prices would balloon due to inflation or crash due to a supply glut.
• “So, just nerf the more lucrative outlier play styles.” in the name of fairness. Let’s examine my current play-style. I log in daily to get the login chest and mine some platinum. One day a week or so I run around the zone, harvest more mats, kill stuff and maybe do an event or three. Should that play style, which requires little to no effort, yield as much or nearly as much return as more involved play styles?

I am just confused at the op’s demands.

There is so much noise about flipper envy that the only thing I got is that he wanted a price history graph.

Tigaseye.2047:

No, it’s not a “big difference”.

You don’t seem to understand this. What’s good for one doesn’t mean it’s good for the other. Allowing all players to be happy by asking for handouts has a high negative impact for the game as a whole.

Tigaseye.2047:

I’m just saying that, if people are unhappy with the amount of gold they can make, by playing the parts of the game they enjoy, some (or all) of them might decide to leave, sooner or later.

You’re not Entitled to making all the Gold you want. Anet provides you with entertainment value, and it’s up to you to play how you want to have fun. If “fun” means having a lot of Gold, then you need to learn how to use existing mechanics to achieve your goals. Asking for handouts because you don’t want to use those existing mechanics properly is not a viable suggestion.

Tigaseye.2047:

No, I don’t particularly enjoy ripping people off on the TP, as it happens, but I know for a fact I’m not alone in that.

It’s not a rip off if a player feels my prices are acceptable. If they don’t like the prices, they’re free to post Buy Offers. I think you misunderstand how the Trading Post works, which is why we have threads popping up all the time asking how some players make profits.

Tigaseye.2047:

If I’m not having fun, I just leave games, sooner or later

And if you leave, your account will still be here. Do note that if you leave, you’ll fall farther behind in terms of wealth.

Tigaseye.2047:

For example, if they wanted, they could bring in a swingeing income tax and/or a capital gains tax and/or tax you on your entire in-game capital.

There’s already a 15% tax that acts as a Gold Sink, which means it destroys Gold. And that means the Gold no longer exists in game for other players to use.

Tigaseye.2047:

That’s called redistributing wealth, as I’m sure you know.

And as I’ve said before, you’re not Entitled to the Gold people like Wanze makes because you’re not putting in the same efforts as he is on the Trading Post. You’re more than free to compete with him.

Tigaseye.2047:

I know Anet already take a small cut, with the TP fees, but they could do far more to very successful TP players, than that, if they liked.

I think I need to make time to post a Trading Post 101 thread to explain how it works.

Tigaseye.2047:

Either way, there need to be far more ways than one to make decent gold than just playing the TP.

Again, making money on the TP cannot be compared to rewards from in-game. Until you understand the difference, your arguments will always be flawed.

Tigaseye.2047:

He just morally objects to the idea of a few people becoming very rich, ingame, while others either can’t, or don’t want to, do what it takes to follow suit.

It seems you’re a student of Marxian Economics. Are you afraid that the players who farm and sell their items on the TP are being harmed by TP players who buy and then resell their products? The thing is, you can’t use the labor theory of value in relation to the Trading Post. We’re not paying player farmers a wage for the output they produce. Rather, we’re paying them the price of their goods that they’ve decided on. This is Capitalism at it’s finest. They labored for 2 hours to sell me a stack of Mithril, and I paid them the price they asked.

Anet don’t really care how gold is distributed – only how much of it there is in the economy.

You might be right, but if so, they would be wrong, because that would be a very shortsighted way of looking at the situation, like saying that an event is working perfectly well just because it does not bug or stall or do anything outright glitchy, even if the actual content of the event is not fun for most players.

For it to “not be broken” is the bare minimum to expect, but it’s not where they should stop working to improve something. Maintaining levels of gold coming in and out of the economy is important, nobody is arguing otherwise, but it’s not the ONLY important thing. They need to also ensure that players feel that the gold distribution is handled fairly, that playing in a way that is fun and engaging to them also feels financially rewarding, that it feels like a valid path towards the goals they have. Look at the angst surrounding the HoT “Spider farming.” The real issue there wasn’t that spider farming was “too good,” it’s that people felt that every other method of progressing masteries was not nearly “good enough,” and spider farming was the only worthwhile alternative.

The TP flipping is fine because TP flipping actually takes gold away from the economy since the TP fees are a gold sink. So basically people working the TP are making gold for themselves while also reducing inflation by sinking gold via the TP fees.

Yes, and nobody is disputing that so I don’t know why people keep bringing it up. Whatever solution comes about, it would either need to be an identical gold sink, or other sinks would need to be put into place elsewhere. A more progressive fee system, for example, one in which the market fees would creep up on large scale traders so that it was more than 15%, would result in an even stronger gold sink. Since you love gold sinks so much, can I count on your support for that idea?

Actually, no. It’s in their best interests to make as much profit as they can as reliably as possible for as long as possible, but this doesn’t necessarily mean raising the profit gained from as many players as possible. If they can make more courting the whales, then that’s what they’re going to do.

Sure, but there’s no reason to believe that those with a lot of gold are any more “whales” than those with little gold. They’re still best off appealing to those who actually play the game, rather than those sitting around in LA.

I guess it must also be unfair for people knowledgeable and good at pvp to beat someone who just "yolo"s it as you put it

Again, no it’s not, as the game is currently balanced, but that’s because being very good at PvP does not confer any significant advantage over those who are not. If being very good at PvP brought in as much gold rewards as being very good at the TP, then it would indeed represent a very serious reward balance issue.

I believe the OP is misguided by focusing on the gold aspect of the economy, which except for high end items is nowhere near as important for the in-game economy now as the zone-specific account bound currencies and the time-gated materials for Guild construction. As an earlier poster noted:

It really depends on what your goals are. If you want a Legendary, you can buy it outright for gold, or you can buy the Precursor for gold, or you can at the very least buy the materials needed for crafting the Precursor for gold. The former would make it an instant and effortless process, the second would save you years of RNG or a significant crafting process, and the latter would save you at least a tone of harvesting time. Nightfury is almost entirely gold cost. For ascended armor, even if you make your own refined materials, it would require well more base materials like silk than you could possibly harvest yourself on a daily basis.

Guild Hall materials are also almost entirely gold cost. The only items I can think of in Hall construction that are account bound are SW shovels and Tomes of Knowledge, the latter pouring in from daily rewards, and the former not that hard to farm for if you have a reasonable sized guild, relative to the hundreds of gold you need for empty kegs.

As far as the gold goes, even if you could evenly redistribute all the in-game property, in no time, those that defer short-term gratification for long term saving (like Wanze) will have more property because they invest what they earn in things that will bring them more returns in the future rather than things that will give them personal satisfaction.

I don’t think there’s any plausible way to redistribute existing wealth, it’s far too late for that, the gold economy has been ruined for year now. The only two things they can do moving forward is to 1. implement systems that reduce the amount of additional wealth players can accumulate off the TP, and 2. GREATLY reduce the actual value of having gold wealth, my ensuring that gold is completely unnecessary towards achieving practical goals, like by having Precursors crafting that costs no more gold than generic exotic weapons, guild hall upgrades that are entirely based on the guild achieving things, rather than the guild buying things, etc.

Make it so that a player who has no gold is no worse off than a player with 10K gold, that he can just as easily acquire the very best things in the game, because those things cannot be earned using gold.

An attempt to approximate earning potential across all play styles would of necessity add faucets to the game — either gold faucets or item faucets. This would require more item (material) sinks and/or gold sinks. Without sinks item prices would balloon due to inflation or crash due to a supply glut.

Or you could just add more effective sinks to the methods that provide unbalanced returns.

“So, just nerf the more lucrative outlier play styles.” in the name of fairness. Let’s examine my current play-style. I log in daily to get the login chest and mine some platinum. One day a week or so I run around the zone, harvest more mats, kill stuff and maybe do an event or three. Should that play style, which requires little to no effort, yield as much or nearly as much return as more involved play styles?

It should yield roughly as much as any playstyle that takes about that long. Of course playstyles that require more direct engagement, like the DS meta event, should reward more, but not magnitudes more.

You don’t seem to understand this. What’s good for one doesn’t mean it’s good for the other. Allowing all players to be happy by asking for handouts has a high negative impact for the game as a whole.

nobody’s asking for handouts, everything would be worked for, all that’s being asked for is a better distribution of rewards (and yes, for the context of this discussion, TP profits DO count as “rewards,” however much the flipper insist otherwise).

You’re not Entitled to making all the Gold you want.

True, but in a game, players should be entitled to a general sense of fairness, that while you have to work for what you get, every other player is expected to work just as hard for what he gets. This discussion is not about players feeling that they are entitled to more loot, it’s that they feel entitled to having as much loot as other players who are doing as much or less work than they are, and that Is a fair entitlement to have.

It’s not a rip off if a player feels my prices are acceptable.

Again, whether they “feel” that your prices are acceptable or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it’s a ripoff. In almost every ripoff in human history, the victim “felt” that he was getting a good deal. What matters is whether he is actually getting a good deal, whether the price he got is the best price he was likely to receive. If it was not, then he was ripped off, whether he realized that or not.

There’s already a 15% tax that acts as a Gold Sink, which means it destroys Gold. And that means the Gold no longer exists in game for other players to use.

Yes, and this is so obvious and well understood that I can’t understand why people keep bringing it up as if it actually shifts the discussion. This 15% tax is fine, but it could be significantly better than it is. It could sink MORe money, and money sinking is great, right? So if a 15% tax is great, then wouldn’t a 20 or 25% tax on those who bring in hundreds of gold per month be even better! Think of all the gold sunk!

And as I’ve said before, you’re not Entitled to the Gold people like Wanze makes because you’re not putting in the same efforts as he is on the Trading Post. You’re more than free to compete with him.

I would like to be able to compete with him by merely playing the non-TP portions of the game. That’s all I’m asking, for the other aspects of the game to have profit potential competitive with the TP.

Again, making money on the TP cannot be compared to rewards from in-game.

Again, it absolutely MUST be compared to rewards from other areas of the game. There are macroeconomic distinctions, and those need to be accounted for, but the game ALSO needs to account for the personal distinctions, the “this player receives this amount of gold” distinction, and that needs to be balanced with other methods in the game. It’s complete nonsense to suggest otherwise.

Rather, we’re paying them the price of their goods that they’ve decided on. This is Capitalism at it’s finest. They labored for 2 hours to sell me a stack of Mithril, and I paid them the price they asked.

An it reminds me of classic gold rush communities, in which miners rarely made much money, but shop owners typically made a killing. It is classic capitalism, but only in the very worst aspects. Pure communism is bad, pure capitalism is even worse, a balanced economy that works for the average citizen has to have both elements in balance, a system in which capitalist principles allow for innovation to profit, but that also ensures that hard work is fairly rewarded.