Guild Wars 2

A lot of people tend to lean one way or another on any and all types of issues. There are those that want to complain about something simply for the sake of complaining. When I used to work in a gas station, a man once complained to a woman that she parked in an area that he normally parks, and then proceeded to berrate her for half an hour over it. It was ridiculous to watch and listen to this man complain like he was, when the parking area in front of the entrance was completely clear of any kind of traffic, yet because “his spot” on the other side of the parking lot had a car sitting in it, he felt he had to voice his concern over it.

Anet reads almost everything that is posted. They sure as heck pay attention to any and all threads that gain a following, such as this one. This thread will be shut down if they perceive school-yard trash talking between the posters. That does nothing for a debate, and does nothing for a discussion. I would strongly advice that this discussion stays on track.

As for my own opinion on this thread, I think the OP lays out his concerns quite nicely. Easy to read, and the concerns are all on point and valid. I see there are problems with the game, anyone can see them. If the playerbase does not wish to see the problems out of blind loyalty or trust to the developer, that is there perrogative. I watched from the sideline as Anet worked, enchanced, worked some more, and enhanced GW1. A lot of the problems they had at launch, where there were pages upon pages of player rage and frustration over one thing or another, are completely gone 6-7 years later.

Honestly, I believe in Anet. I trust that they don’t want to sink their own game, no developer wants to. I also believe the things the playerbase are complaining about right now won’t even be thought about in a year’s time. I would even go so far as to say within 6 months, 70% of all the issues people complain about right now won’t even be an afterthought.

This is a new age we live in, where people want things last week, and expect updates yesterday. This age has a name, The Age of Entitlement. Every single game that has come after World of Warcraft launched, has a very large playerbase in them that have gotten this disease. These same people will also complain simply for the sake of complaining, and will not listen to any sort of reason. They will simply ignore anything said that makes sense, and instead focus on something else to complain about. These people are trolls, and will continue to do this sort of thing “just because”. Make no mistake, the OP is not one of these people.

Rifter.6591:

Also what do old games have to do with GW2? Thats just another strawman.

I think it’s not a strawman, it’s just a misdirection.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rifter.6591:

Also what do old games have to do with GW2? Thats just another strawman.

I think it’s not a strawman, it’s just a misdirection.

True that

Gestankfaust.4216:

Play the game provided…stop acting like you were promised something else. Try and remember what it was like in the old days…I doubt you can…but…

Perhaps the one that doesn’t remember is you. Compared to the some of the old MUD forums i used to frequent once, this one is very mild an calm. The amount of flames, mud slinging, demands and accusations there was much, much higher then.

Astralporing.1957:

Perhaps the one that doesn’t remember is you. Compared to the some of the old MUD forums i used to frequent once, this one is very mild and calm. The amount of flames, mud slinging, demands and accusations there was much, much higher then.

Seriously . . . about the only forums which were civil were official ones, and that’s because companies were a whole lot stricter on whether people were allowed to . . . essentially, walk into someone;s meeting place and shout “Bill is a liar and a cheat!” without getting tossed out on his ear.

Though there is something about the era when games were released and even if they were buggy messes we were expected to like them. That’s because, up until a certain point, patches would have to be mailed to people rather than just downloaded off an FTP. Or through the launcher. So generally, what you bought was very much what you got . . .

Once we got to what people can say were “MMORPGs” it was expected you had a fast enough connection to download patches, therefore it became a little more common. More often than not patches were snuck in during the weekly maintenance cycle

(Who misses those, by the way?)

I have read this topic and now i feel like home (I have lived in a comunist country for several years). Thank you.

I’m with you on this one OP. Got my $60 out of it, and i’m not giving them another dollar. Things should have been clear to us since the beta and how they are managing to make the game better on some aspects, and on others – completely ruin it.
I don’t know why are we even giving them feedback, when: 1) We are not paid to do it. 2) They don’t even listen.

I realized that whatever i say will probably not even change and this game will continue to feel like a money sink. For now i am going to level my guardian by doing my daily and logging off, in hopes there will be something worth while to buy with yet another currency.

Mudfin.4637:

Actually I read your posts, and points. I just don’t agree with them at all. I only commented on the two above because they were the ones I had an opinion I felt like sharing. So please don’t assume I didn’t, that’s rather arrogant. If by my response you don’t think I did than maybe you didn’t express your self very good, or like I personally believe, I just don’t agree with you.

Do you have a side? Yes you do. One you stated rather well both before and after your “break”. Is your whole thesis based on your beliefs on what you think is happening? Yes it is. All I stated was that I agree with Mackdose that they have picked a path after reviewing their data and are staying with it. Again, you don’t agree. It is my opinion that you don’t agree because it is not your side, or what you’d like to see.

Yes, I have a side. No, I don’t care if they decide to choose my side or not. I may disagree with it, but I’ll at least be happy they picked a side to begin with.

Again, if you think that I posted this only to express my own opinion on the game’s direction, then you clearly didn’t read my posts at all, you just think that you did.

I am insisting on a clear, defined direction for the future of this game. Playing to the middle will hurt them long-term. Would it be nice if they agreed with me on what direction the game should go? Yeah, in my opinion, it would be preferable. But if they want to go the opposite direction, that’s okay too. But it’s about time to make that decision. They can’t keep trying to play along the middle forever. It’s been tried before, in other MMOs, and it doesn’t work well.

As to vertical progression we will just have to disagree. Yes, I will be “behind” poor choice of words, since you took it literally to fit your argument. But to use your analogy, in the marathon I don’t care that someone beat me, I wasn’t racing. I was just running to do it, and I did. In most games competition in the PvE environment is only determined by World Firsts, and that only happens once. Everyone else is completing content to achieve a goal, or, in other words, progress. I could care less if I am not the first. I can be the 1000th and be happy that I progressed. So, you see, vertical progression is not for the hardcore. It’s for everyone who wants to put forth the effort.

Just because you run the marathon for the sake of completing it doesn’t mean that it only existed for the purposes of completion.

Vertical progression is designed to appeal to the people who want to race to the top. Just because it makes a good long-term goal for you doesn’t mean that’s what it was designed for.

critickitten.1498:

Vertical progression is designed to appeal to the people who want to race to the top. Just because it makes a good long-term goal for you doesn’t mean that’s what it was designed for.

I completely disagree. In fact, I think that this fundamental disagreement is also what you and the people who’ve left don’t see eye-to-eye with the designers on.

Before I make my point, I want to explain that I come this discussion as a former raid leader in another game. I’ve been that “elitist jerk” who says to people, “you need better gear before you can join us on this raid.” To me, that is the essence of vertical (gear) progression. When content is locked either by the community or by the game itself due to the stats available on gear. There are two types of gear progression present in GW2 right now: Fine->Rare->Exotic->Ascended and Non-AR->AR. I think the two are very separate in how the “progression” affects the player and so should be discussed separately.

So, starting with the progression through tiers. The question to answer is this: Am I unable to enjoy content in the game because of the tier of armor I have? My answer to this is a resounding “No.” I have been able to participate in every aspect of game in my current mishmash of gear, without feeling like I am a significant drag on the team. Yes, I fully admit that speed run/farming teams will not be happy with me. They probably wouldn’t be happy with me in full exotics/ascended anyway, and find my skill level lacking. I know this because it was the case in GW1, constantly. Beyond that, I do not feel like the existence of ascended gear necessitates a race to the top. Instead it gives me a set of medium and long-term optional goals. That is why it appeals to me.

On the Non-AR/AR issue. The question is still whether I am barred from content. Clearly, without enough AR I can’t run the higher level fractals. But, as far as content goes, fractals are all about repetitive content. I’m not sure that anyone, even the designers, can dispute that Infusion/Agony is a terrible gating mechanism, in terms of gating harder versions of content. It doesn’t really measure one’s ability to play competitively in harder content. Since without AR I can run fractals all I want, though, I find that distinction to be trivial. Again, mostly what it bars me from is running with folks who would find a different reason to not want to run with me. But, it does give me a bar to set for myself. And that’s why (a slightly better version) appeals to me.

I truly believe that people are hurting themselves, as they approach this game. They seem to be letting their need to have the best numbers (a status symbol, of sorts) ruin their ability to enjoy the game play. I feel bad for them, because I think that they are unnecessarily depriving themselves of something. I hope at least they found an equally enjoyable replacement.

Okay… All of this said, there is one weakness in the design that I think breaks down. While in a PUG world everything I’ve said is true, if you are in the wrong guild there could be a lot more pressure. For example, if I was in a hardcore dungeon running guild, it is a lot harder for me to enjoy running content with my friends unless I participate in the race to get the best gear. The oversimplified answer to this is to tell someone to switch guilds. There is likely some merit in this suggestion. I certainly know that I don’t want to be in a hardcore dungeon guild myself, for exactly this reason. However, people are more complicated than this, particularly where social interaction is concerned. It is common to find a person with a group of friends who represent what they aspire to be more than what they have currently achieved. Sometimes friendships evolve out of simple common circumstance… However, even in raiding focused games, this is a problem. So swinging to that extreme isn’t going to help. And switching to totally casual isn’t going to help either, as it will simply make those friends move away. My personal belief is that the guild problem is best solved by good guild leadership deciding how to be inclusive of their membership and enforcing it, either through gearing drives or relaxed requirements, etc… If the people are running with aren’t willing to make compromises to run with you… Perhaps they’re not as much your friends as you thought..

So… There’s my deluge of thoughts.

TLDR is N/A. Sorry, discussion via summaries doesn’t result in anything more than two people shouting slogans at each other.

critickitten.1498:

Just because you run the marathon for the sake of completing it doesn’t mean that it only existed for the purposes of completion.

Vertical progression is designed to appeal to the people who want to race to the top. Just because it makes a good long-term goal for you doesn’t mean that’s what it was designed for.

Pure conjecture.

Vertical progression (in gear/ attribute points/ title point grinds) is designed to offer improving effectiveness without raising a level cap. That’s it. That’s all it’s ever been since inception. It’s not put in the game for a target audience, it’s there to serve as a long-term goal. It’s a leveling replacement.

Vertical progression may appeal to those who race to the top, but that’s not who it’s designed for. Nor does it favor them.

“Of course it favors them! They get the items faster, and everyone else falls behind!”

It may take them less RL time to get the items, but it’s the same amount of game play. The returns on that game play are severely diminished in GW2 compared to the alternative VP-based MMOs on the market.

The “falls behind” point especially eludes me in the context of GW2’s PvE. You’re either at the power curve (Rares), slightly above the power curve (Exotics), or above the power curve (Ascended). This means that as long as you’re in rares, the only thing you’re behind in is how many seconds longer a boss lives before he falls over.

If you’re referring to WvW and the inherent advantages of better gear, I’d like to point out that WvW isn’t designed to be balanced on a small scale.

Everyone else is completing content to achieve a goal, or, in other words, progress. I could care less if I am not the first. I can be the 1000th and be happy that I progressed. So, you see, vertical progression is not for the hardcore. It’s for everyone who wants to put forth the effort.

There’s no arguing with this sentiment, your opinion that I should care who has more gear than me is largely ignoring the game’s intentional design to suit your confirmation bias against vertical progression.

JaironKalach.4938:

So… There’s my deluge of thoughts.

Totally agree with you. +1 from me

Mackdose.6504:

The “falls behind” point especially eludes me in the context of GW2’s PvE. You’re either at the power curve (Rares), slightly above the power curve (Exotics), or above the power curve (Ascended). This means that as long as you’re in rares, the only thing you’re behind in is how many seconds longer a boss lives before he falls over.

That’s what I don’t understand when people say they will “fall behind” and “can’t come back to the game once they leave” or how long it will take to get that gear… What do you need that gear for?

Hello,

Since this this thread has derailed with off-topic and inflammatory comments, it is now closed.

Thank you for your understanding.