Guild Wars 2

Revolution.6301:

I hate to repeat myself but when will Anet give us an offical comment on this?

they wont. they dont like to be wrong.

Salacious.7358:

Revolution.6301:

I hate to repeat myself but when will Anet give us an offical comment on this?

they wont. they dont like to be wrong.

Well judging by the daily threads complaining generally about the what op said shouldn’t they reply?

I don’t have much else left to say on any of these matters, really. I run the risk of sliding into territory I’d rather not dip into. Now if you don’t mind, I have some sleep to catch and some work to do, not necessarily in that order.

Peace, love, and hand grenades.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t have much else left to say on any of these matters, really. I run the risk of sliding into territory I’d rather not dip into. Now if you don’t mind, I have some sleep to catch and some work to do, not necessarily in that order.

Peace, love, and hand grenades.

I’m pretty mush the same. I also feel like everything has been said and there’s not really much else to say.

I agree with the OP, and I’ll try and restrain myself from discussing how critique is modded as well. Anyways, I feel like I can’t trust them as well. This is not due to bad patches however, although there has definitely been some. It is due to simple poor communication. I appreciate they are out doing PR for their game a lot, but the LEAST they can do is give us proper patch notes. There is ALWAYS something missing, or directly wrong. And not due to bugs. When people then move on to criticize ArenaNet I feel like they get shut down in many cases if there is any excuse to do so.

When I read the moderated response in this thread I was a little shocked that an employee of a company would speak to a customer that way and yes if you bought this game that’s what you are.

I think it would have been best to keep that in a private message but even in a message I don’t think the tone was very respectful.

I never played GW but OP I can understand your disappointment in some of the things that Anet has decided to do with their product but unfortunately for us and the players that want to see it be as good as it can be for all the players it is what it is.

I definitely feel like I have gotten the 200 or more dollars I have put into the game out of it but unless they start making better choices with the game I can’t see myself playing the game much longer.

As it is I play just too be able to play a ame with the other people in the small guild I’m in.

Don’t know how I missed this thread.

The moderated response is just…

On-topic I agree with the OP in every possible way. My major problem with the game at the moment is their obvious lack of QA and internal testing. Yes they claim they test the content and they brag how good their QA is, but then how did they release such controversial content as the Guild Missions in their current state?

ArenaNet has not deviated from their design manifesto.

The OP title is " one core flaw"

then in his post he describes three…
which one IS the core flaw? I still don’t know.

point 1- is his personal opinion, i don’t share this sentiment, i like very much the new dailies.
point 2- yes , agree, I don’t like if they will make more gear thread mil,
if they introduce tier higher than ascended me (and maybe some other people) will look for a different game.
Is it THE core flaw?
nah
there is no subscription to GW2, so if from this change they will be able to sell more boxes, they are fine.

we can talk about it and discuss it even more. but this topic was discussed to death since when? November?

point 3
this is also not true.
the devs are always talking and communicating.
just read the latest four parts interview in gw2guru.
go to the devtracker in these forums.
there is a lot of info here, it just probably not what YOU want to hear.

most of the remaining five pages are just tantrums (‘nerf this class…’ and ‘buff this class….’ are just kindergarten level ), very little posts there are properly articulated and have opinion worth reading.

and i will remind you again…
you are not paying subscription…
just to set the perspective
dragon age cost me more than GW2 and I played it for much less than six months, and it has HUGE amount of bugs… even gamebreaking ones that you had to start all over…

the last patch and what they promised about the next big WWW patch (the Ides of March lol) GW2 tells me that they care about the game and it is going somewhere.

Back to the topic

what is the ONE CORE FLAW?
my unprofessional opinion is trying to get the balance between PVP and PVE at the same time, but failing on both…

in PVE, most of the content can be finished by all classes, but some classes can do it better and faster.
the old ‘warrior, guardian, mesmer’ vs all the rest classism..

in PVP, again: thief and mesmer are considered by the player base kings of PVP.

so Anet are trying to balance both, but for their hard work they receiving flack from both sides of the game.
if they state for example that from now on they will be balancing PVP only. and actually do this.
and although i might not like it, the amount of outrage in the forums will be reduced by half…

Lalangamena.3694:

The OP title is " one core flaw"

then in his post he describes three…
which one IS the core flaw? I still don’t know.

point 1- is his personal opinion, i don’t share this sentiment, i like very much the new dailies.
point 2- yes , agree, I don’t like if they will make more gear thread mil,
if they introduce tier higher than ascended me (and maybe some other people) will look for a different game.
Is it THE core flaw?
nah
there is no subscription to GW2, so if from this change they will be able to sell more boxes, they are fine.

we can talk about it and discuss it even more. but this topic was discussed to death since when? November?

point 3
this is also not true.
the devs are always talking and communicating.
just read the latest four parts interview in gw2guru.
go to the devtracker in these forums.
there is a lot of info here, it just probably not what YOU want to hear.

most of the remaining five pages are just tantrums (‘nerf this class…’ and ‘buff this class….’ are just kindergarten level ), very little posts there are properly articulated and have opinion worth reading.

and i will remind you again…
you are not paying subscription…
just to set the perspective
dragon age cost me more than GW2 and I played it for much less than six months, and it has HUGE amount of bugs… even gamebreaking ones that you had to start all over…

the last patch and what they promised about the next big WWW patch (the Ides of March lol) GW2 tells me that they care about the game and it is going somewhere.

Back to the topic

what is the ONE CORE FLAW?
my unprofessional opinion is trying to get the balance between PVP and PVE at the same time, but failing on both…

in PVE, most of the content can be finished by all classes, but some classes can do it better and faster.
the old ‘warrior, guardian, mesmer’ vs all the rest classism..

in PVP, again: thief and mesmer are considered by the player base kings of PVP.

so Anet are trying to balance both, but for their hard work they receiving flack from both sides of the game.
if they state for example that from now on they will be balancing PVP only. and actually do this.
and although i might not like it, the amount of outrage in the forums will be reduced by half…

Most if not all mmos now are buy to play or free 2 play and they make more money using gambling chests in the TP than they would ever make with a sub.

Not charging a sub doesn’t grant a developer an excuse to ignore criticism from the players nor does it nullify the players feelings about the game.

Ursan.7846:

I’m only giving my own opinion.

I can no longer trust that the developers of GW2 have our best interests at heart

Should change that to “mine”

He speaks for more than himself.

Cora.9745:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t have much else left to say on any of these matters, really. I run the risk of sliding into territory I’d rather not dip into. Now if you don’t mind, I have some sleep to catch and some work to do, not necessarily in that order.

Peace, love, and hand grenades.

I’m pretty mush the same. I also feel like everything has been said and there’s not really much else to say.

^Agreed. Let the topic rest in peace.

1) You have more options. Period. The new system more or less takes the old rotation of five daily reqs, and adds four more per day – now with the option to choose any five.

That is the very definition of “choosing” how you play. Many of the current dailies can be completed in any zone.

2) This argument is only applicable to WvW, and even then, that mode is not balanced around solo play.

However, eventual power creep should be an interesting development to watch for, even though at this point it is negligible.

3) Anet has said they would address the core infrastructure of the game, and that’s exactly what they are doing.

Alright, I’ve returned. I apologize for my extended absence and inability to immediately respond to those of you with valid points, but I suspect you can surmise for yourself where I’ve been the past several days.

I want to start by thanking Martin once again for his contributions to this thread. While I strongly believe that he misunderstands the purpose of this thread as an opinion from an honestly concerned player, rather than a sensationalist topic written by Fox News, his contribution to this thread did actually help this discussion, as many posters here have pointed out, and it was unfair of me to be so curt to him in my last reply. I do apologize for that and thank him for his contributions.

Now then, I notice that many have posted in favor of my concerns and I do appreciate that some of you feel the need to express your concerns as well. I’m glad to know that I’m not just crazy….unless this entire forum only exists in my head, which would be a level of crazy much too complicated to cover here. I genuinely appreciate that you have helped defend my original post while I was unable to.

I notice that there are also several of you who, given your statements, have not actually read the post in its entirety (or at all), and I strongly encourage you to do so. After all, you cannot contribute meaningfully to the discussion if you cannot even take the time to make certain that you understand what was said in the first place.

I’ve thought on how I might describe this for those of you who aren’t understanding what I said before, and here’s how I think I’ll try to explain it:

I am a huge fan of the game as a whole. I love it and want to see it succeed. However, I have serious ongoing concerns about the direction it has chosen. I am not complaining about the fact that the game is going in a direction I don’t like, so much as the fact that it appears the game is not trying to appeal either to its originally intended niche or the current majority of its players. Instead, it seems to be trying to teeter carefully between several different groups, to the detriment of us all.

It’s trying to appeal to a hardcore crowd by dedicating itself to vertical progression, but also swears that it’ll be a slow progression to appeal to casuals. The result: a system that’s inaccessible to most casual players but not nearly enough of a grind for hardcore fans.

It tries to keep itself accessible to people who haven’t played GW1 by running on an entirely new storyline, but doing so forces them to “tweak”, ignore, or even retcon some prior canon to achieve results. The result: the world and lore of GW2 is rich and deep, but the stories themselves feel significantly flatter.

It tries to be a very rewarding game by throwing lots of new currencies at us even as the devs lock down, reduce, or even eliminate the rewards in various locations to keep people from “farming”. The result: a game world where we’re running out of bank slots to store all of our currencies, but still can only expect a guarantee of a blue drop when we solo a champion mob.

And they make announcements that end up being altered, changed, or dropped entirely. The result: players getting told that AoE will be nerfed across the board but on a case-by-case basis, that the precursor scavenger hunt is actively in development but not being worked on, and that the problems with condition builds are both an active focus and not even on the radar.

All this does is fuel the fires of those who genuinely do want to see the game fail, and disappoint the game’s genuine fans, myself included.

(continued below)

As I said before, it’s a matter of trust, as far as I’m concerned. I would much rather have the developers be firm and pick a stance that diametrically opposes my own preferences than to see them flounder on the fence, because when they can’t pick a side, that means that neither group can commit the full burden of their trust to that dev team. Yes, people will always be angry, no matter what you do. People will always scream “BETRAYAAAAL” at everything. That’s part of the job. But that doesn’t mean you should flip or flop on issues, nor should you stay quiet on major issues that concern your players. You need to decide which group of players you want, and dedicate your content to them, so that the people who aren’t getting what they want can move on and find another game that suits their tastes better. As is, you’re stringing them along, keeping them hoping that maybe the next update will reverse the trend and start things going back in the direction THEY want the game to go.

Yeah, I’m not happy with the game’s current direction. But that’s neither here nor there, and has nothing to do with the flaw I’m expressing. The flaw isn’t that the game isn’t going in the way I want, it’s that the releases to date suggest that it’s trying to go in two directions at the same time. When a developer can’t seem to pick which side of the fence it is on, that results in both sides being disappointed to one degree or another, and both sides are hurt. I’ve seen a lot of people whom I vehemently disagreed with on one topic or another who have gone from expressing total faith in the game’s direction to being very confused and upset because of recent changes. I’m asking in the most polite way possible for ANet to please lay out precisely what they intend to do. No vagueness, no double talk, and for all of our sakes, no PR stuff. Just say “here’s what we want to do with this game”, and if people don’t like it, they can move on. It’ll dramatically cut down on the number of complaints you’ll have to field (as the people whose personal vision doesn’t match yours will have left) and it’ll make everyone happier in the long run. What I’m seeing is an effort to compromise on virtually everything and anything, which isn’t the right way to handle this. At some point, you have to choose a direction to steer your ship, or it’ll ram straight into the dock.

@critickitten

I think I get where you are, I thought I got it earlier but I’m not entirely sure. I respect your opinions, and your perspective on this. You’re getting a +1 on your two posts there for being respectful and trying your best to explain something that doesn’t necessarily always fit into neat words. Logic and facts are neat (more often than not), but emotions are not.

I don’t think a “this is definitely where we are going” is a viable option to lay out for the developers. Meaning no offense to them, they work very hard but I don’t think they truly know what shape the game will be in six months from now . . . twelve months from now . . . six years from now. They can hope, they can try to make grand boasts, but knowing the future is left to fantasies and imagination.

I don’t think they know what their game will be like because they are trying to polish and shape it even now. They have ideas on how to fix what is being called out as problems, and they have ideas they already had on the table before then. I know this only through intuition but I don’t expect they started this game with no plans of what to add later.

So if you want no PR talk and just a straight answer, that’s what you’re going to get. A developer standing up and going “we’re not sure what form the game will take, we only hope it’s still around six months from now”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

@critickitten

I think I get where you are, I thought I got it earlier but I’m not entirely sure. I respect your opinions, and your perspective on this. You’re getting a +1 on your two posts there for being respectful and trying your best to explain something that doesn’t necessarily always fit into neat words. Logic and facts are neat (more often than not), but emotions are not.

I don’t think a “this is definitely where we are going” is a viable option to lay out for the developers. Meaning no offense to them, they work very hard but I don’t think they truly know what shape the game will be in six months from now . . . twelve months from now . . . six years from now. They can hope, they can try to make grand boasts, but knowing the future is left to fantasies and imagination.

I don’t think they know what their game will be like because they are trying to polish and shape it even now. They have ideas on how to fix what is being called out as problems, and they have ideas they already had on the table before then. I know this only through intuition but I don’t expect they started this game with no plans of what to add later.

So if you want no PR talk and just a straight answer, that’s what you’re going to get. A developer standing up and going “we’re not sure what form the game will take, we only hope it’s still around six months from now”.

well generally I think his problem his the developers are trying to applease both sides of the same coin which is very difficult, not impossible though. And he just wants them to choose one, but to Critkitten they will not give us as straight answer but I agree with you that by choosing one side atleast them all this confusion would end. What I am personally annoyed with is how casual players were chosen in the beginning then out of nowhere hardcore are being wanted too. CASUALS were the targetted market in the first place not hardcore! This is what frustrates me to no end.

Unfortunately what happens is the minority of whiners wins and becomes the majority. Every single game eventually falls victim.

I kind of liked the original daily myself. It was boring but I could do it everyday. It was a daily, you did it and you where done. Now I gotta do things I usually don’t normally do everyday. And for what? Because a group of people whined about the issue and the devs catered to them and them alone.

I agree with the OP that trust is an issue, but more fundamentally than the playerbase being unable to trust Anet, I feel like Anet’s choices reflect a lack of trust in their playerbase. I’m beginning to feel like I’m being treated like a child in this game with regard to my decision making. When I want to run the same dungeon path more than once a day, or farm the same region for an extended period of time, or defeat the same dragon twice in a day, Anet treats me like the child who wants to eat cake for breakfast, lunch, and dinner by telling me “silly boy, as much as you might enjoy that, as your parents it’s our responsibility to discourage you from making that decision.” Then when someone argues that they are old enough to make their own choices they are treated with the good ‘ole Jedi mind trick "You don’t want to eat cake". Yes I do Anet, yes I do. And please, trust me enough to make my own decisions and seek rewards in ways that satisfy my play style.

I just do not understand why I’m being discouraged (i.e. eliminating rewards) from playing the way that I want. Again, I feel like I’m left with Anet’s parental stance of “because we said so.”

So, can we get back to being adults and sharing mutual respect and trust? I sure hope so, because Anet is very capable of creating a great game and great content, when they’re willing to trust the playerbase to engage with it in ways that are naturally gratifying.

Scythemyster.6431:

I agree with the OP that trust is an issue, but more fundamentally than the playerbase being unable to trust Anet, I feel like Anet’s choices reflect a lack of trust in their playerbase. I’m beginning to feel like I’m being treated like a child in this game with regard to my decision making. When I want to run the same dungeon path more than once a day, or farm the same region for an extended period of time, or defeat the same dragon twice in a day, Anet treats me like the child who wants to eat cake for breakfast, lunch, and dinner by telling me “silly boy, as much as you might enjoy that, as your parents it’s our responsibility to discourage you from making that decision.” Then when someone argues that they are old enough to make their own choices they are treated with the good ‘ole Jedi mind trick "You don’t want to eat cake". Yes I do Anet, yes I do. And please, trust me enough to make my own decisions and seek rewards in ways that satisfy my play style.

I just do not understand why I’m being discouraged (i.e. eliminating rewards) from playing the way that I want. Again, I feel like I’m left with Anet’s parental stance of “because we said so.”

So, can we get back to being adults and sharing mutual respect and trust? I sure hope so, because Anet is very capable of creating a great game and great content, when they’re willing to trust the playerbase to engage with it in ways that are naturally gratifying.

The problem is that MMOs are largerly played by childs who will farm X a bazillion of times and crash the economy, not adults.
They are forced to do this to prevent exploiting, it’s not something they decided one day by chance.

Well i got infracted for my first reply so lets try this again.

I agree with OP Anet has lied to many times now to be trusted, they are not making the game they marketed to us and i would go as far as to say they are making a good effort of making the exact opposite of what was promised with every patch added.

I agree with the OP to a certain extent about dailies and gear grind, but I’ve never felt I can’t trust the devs. I don’t think it’s about trust and personally haven’t felt they’ve miscommunicated (then again I don’t read every release and post, but wouldn’t take it as gospel).

While I have a lot of suggestions to improve things, I think it’s more a case of resources and priority than faith.

They’re doing cool stuff with the game, but I also feel strongly against things like vertical progression and grindy formulas. As an example, it takes many dungeon runs to earn one piece of exotic gear, which means the dungeon will need to be rinsed and repeated. Accurately, many are and with a quick and powerful team are just bulldozed. My friend took her first run down one path in a group that was on a speed run. It had to be so dizzying she didn’t have any time to enjoy it, let alone know what was happening. There wasn’t even time to explain it to her as we went. Not very engaging or thrilling, it was just a race to the finish with chest popping. Oh well, such is life in MMOs…

Drew.1865:

Lalangamena.3694:

The OP title is " one core flaw"

then in his post he describes three…
which one IS the core flaw? I still don’t know.

point 1- is his personal opinion, i don’t share this sentiment, i like very much the new dailies.
point 2- yes , agree, I don’t like if they will make more gear thread mil,
if they introduce tier higher than ascended me (and maybe some other people) will look for a different game.
Is it THE core flaw?
nah
there is no subscription to GW2, so if from this change they will be able to sell more boxes, they are fine.

we can talk about it and discuss it even more. but this topic was discussed to death since when? November?

point 3
this is also not true.
the devs are always talking and communicating.
just read the latest four parts interview in gw2guru.
go to the devtracker in these forums.
there is a lot of info here, it just probably not what YOU want to hear.

most of the remaining five pages are just tantrums (‘nerf this class…’ and ‘buff this class….’ are just kindergarten level ), very little posts there are properly articulated and have opinion worth reading.

and i will remind you again…
you are not paying subscription…
just to set the perspective
dragon age cost me more than GW2 and I played it for much less than six months, and it has HUGE amount of bugs… even gamebreaking ones that you had to start all over…

the last patch and what they promised about the next big WWW patch (the Ides of March lol) GW2 tells me that they care about the game and it is going somewhere.

Back to the topic

what is the ONE CORE FLAW?
my unprofessional opinion is trying to get the balance between PVP and PVE at the same time, but failing on both…

in PVE, most of the content can be finished by all classes, but some classes can do it better and faster.
the old ‘warrior, guardian, mesmer’ vs all the rest classism..

in PVP, again: thief and mesmer are considered by the player base kings of PVP.

so Anet are trying to balance both, but for their hard work they receiving flack from both sides of the game.
if they state for example that from now on they will be balancing PVP only. and actually do this.
and although i might not like it, the amount of outrage in the forums will be reduced by half…

Most if not all mmos now are buy to play or free 2 play and they make more money using gambling chests in the TP than they would ever make with a sub.

Not charging a sub doesn’t grant a developer an excuse to ignore criticism from the players nor does it nullify the players feelings about the game.

Exactly this. We dont pay a sub so we are ants

I honestly don’t think ArenaNet is ignoring criticism from players and I think it would be very unfair to play the “no sub = sub-standard service” card here, because (aside from that not being true at all) even with it’s flaws, Guild Wars 2 is still an amazing, amazing MMORPG that garners a lot of love from it’s players and it’s developers … and one that I as a player regard as a good, value-for-money purchase.

I am highly critical of the game though … and let’s face it, I’m an absolute pain in the backside with certain issues, like the various camera problems, but it’s because I love this game so darn much, and I want it to be as good as it can be in every possible way.

If I had to single out 1 core flaw – it would have to be that the developers don’t go back to the drawing board often enough to address issues and shortfalls that’s been with us since before release. That would be the one thing I think they can improve on … that, and perhaps giving players more choice in terms of camera options (I’ve got to say that, because it major). But essentially, going back to the basics and fixing core issues – that is a biggie in my books.

Guild Wars 2 is a game where very good and very bad elements both exist in close proximity. You have wonderful ideas and concepts with spectacularly poor implementation. I understand that it’s not always reasonable to deliver on everything the players want, but I think ANet needs to listen to the players, especially the critical ones, not only because they’re the ones playing it but because they’re removed from development hubris. They need to show them that they’re listening by responding and not clamming up.

You know, the company that I’m most reminded of that uses clamming up as a PR tactic is EA. Yeah, lotta good that does them.

TwoBit.5903:

Guild Wars 2 is a game where very good and very bad elements both exist in close proximity. You have wonderful ideas and concepts with spectacularly poor implementation. ANet needs to listen to the players, especially the critical ones, not only because they’re the ones playing it but because they’re removed from development hubris.

I don’t know if it’s hubris or myopia, but there is a danger of working on something so long that you’re no longer seeing what is actually there but what should be there. It’s proven, and it’s why if I have a term paper . . . I read it backwards from the final paragraph rather than forwards. I catch more typos and out-of-order things that way.

It’s a pity I can’t do that so well on the internet forums. I’d catch a LOT more of my more embarrassing constant errors that way. (42,000 for temple exotics, not 4200 . . . 42,000 for temple exotics, not 4200 . . .)

Perfect example of this is what the OP said: The pre-cursor scavenger hunt. The time for its release keeps getting pushed back by what Colin has been saying I would add that the guild missions should be put in that too. Their actions don’t match up with their words. Izzy said they put the first unlocks of Guild Missions in Tier 5 Art of War to make it a challenge. Awesome. Except for the fact that only guilds interested in WvW would have this unlocked right off the bat. So it’s not a challenge for multi-faceted guilds that like PvE and WvW. It’s only a challenge for PvE centered guilds. If actions matched words there would have been a whole new tier put in the guild mission tab with the first guild mission placed in that and then all the others wherever they would be. That way it would have been an even starting point for all involved.

The OP is not out of line when saying that the devs haven’t been transparent in some cases. I also feel however that at other times they have been more forthright in what they are doing and I find it really refreshing. honesty is the best policy. You can’t lose. You may ruffle feathers when people’s ideas of what they want does not mesh with the devs vision, but there can’t be any misguided conspiracy theories.

I would bring up more examples of things not being conveyed in a more transparent light, but I hope that my point has been made. Oh wait, one more: Communication on guild missions has been poor at best.

On the topic of trying to please casuals and hardcore both, I think a lot of posters are missing a key piece of the puzzle.

The playerbase isn’t split 50-50. This isn’t a coin where heads is casual gamers and tails is hardcore gamers, and Anet flips the coin and develops features for either side.

I contend that there is an area in the middle that people like myself fall into. I used to be a hardcore MMO player when I was in high school and while I was attending college. Now that I’m in the work force I don’t have that kind of time to dedicate, but I still enjoy the challenge and and long-term goals that “hardcore” options grant me.

This game’s design has been tailor-made for my play time and my motivations. I am smack-dab in the middle of casual and hardcore, and every addition to the game has appealed to me on some level. I like the hardcore options, they give me purpose. I like the casual currencies, they reward me for my limited play time.

I figure I represent the population of the game who is neither hurt nor hindered by any of the additions to the game thus far. If the playerbase is a bell curve between hardcore types and casual types, the grey area between the two extremes will most likely be the satisfied silent majority that constitutes the primary population (read: target audience) in the game.

Like Tobias, I can only intuit that this is the case, I have no evidence other than anecdotal conversations with several members of the community and members of whatever current guild I happen to be representing when I talk about the game.

TL;DR: The compromise that Anet is making between hardcore and casual appeals to the people that fall between the two extremes, and from my observations, the amount of players in the “grey area” constitute the majority of the active player base.

Mackdose.6504:

Like Tobias, I can only intuit that this is the case, I have no evidence other than anecdotal conversations with several members of the community and members of whatever current guild I happen to be representing when I talk about the game.

TL;DR: The compromise that Anet is making between hardcore and casual appeals to the people that fall between the two extremes, and from my observations, the amount of players in the “grey area” constitute the majority of the active player base.

I want to just say I think I fit in this boat as well. Not to bandwagon, per se, but I think it’s important to point out to the community that we do exist. Perhaps it is only Tobias, Mackdose, and I, but we do exist. I also want to say that beyond that, I enjoy the tightrope that they are walking. I’m on my second level 80 and feel that while I can push for gear if I decide that I want to, there isn’t an overwhelming need for me to do so. (Some days, I do. Some days I go often do something stupid that I enjoy)

guys, the game needs a huge overhaul.
better the encounters, better the endgame, better the crafting and “side games”, better pvp, better wvw.

imo we need to stick thru it cause it might be worth it.

Mackdose.6504:

-snip-

I’m not missing that at all. Most opinions on virtually any topic have grey area involved, and the majority floats near the middle.

That said, vertical progression is a model which distinctly favors hardcore players. It’s designed to keep these sorts of people playing by introducing gear at a rapid rate, because even though it can’t possibly keep up with the hardcore crowd, that’s who it’s aimed to cater to. You don’t build a game around vertical progression unless your goal is to keep people playing long-term by chasing after better gear. The horizontal model, by comparison, thrives on making new and shiny gear instead of just making it better. Ergo it’s a model better suited to a casual audience even if the grind for such items is enormous….because throughout that period, they’re not placed at any sort of significant disadvantage statistically. They can still pop in and out of the game and have a decent opportunity at success.

What GW2 is trying to do is have both: it’s introducing vertical progression but at a largely decelerated rate. The idea is pretty obvious: if you introduce it slowly, casuals aren’t hit as hard by the growth in overall player power and have an opportunity to keep up a little better. But at the same time you’re still giving the hardcore players new, better gear to chase after. It would seem, on paper, to be the best of both worlds.

Unfortunately, the core problem behind such a setup is that you can’t possibly introduce the content at a slow-enough rate for most casual audiences, relegating such “grinds” to a long-term goal that feels out of their reach. A month of dedicated daily play for one item isn’t something that a typical casual player is able to do. On the other hand, when you introduce it as slowly as GW2 has, your hardcore players gobble it up in days and are once again left with nothing to do but wait and complain about a lack of content. Thus both parties end up unhappy to varying degrees. Yeah, you minimized the number of very vocal complaints because only the extreme ends of the spectrum are totally outraged at the very idea of what you’ve done….but the groups in the middle aren’t necessarily placated by what you did either.

Indeed, casuals have the same access to the game, and can eventually earn the same rewards as long-term goals. But that’s missing the forest for the trees. The problem isn’t the notion that the game is half-hardcores and half-casuals, the problem is that you’re trying to appeal to both extremes at the same time, and the result is a model that doesn’t please either extreme, and often leaves the people in the middle disappointed to boot. They would be better off picking one end and then compromising to a very limited degree towards the middle, as that has the best shot of retention and general happiness. Trying to continually play the middle isn’t actually making the middle people necessarily “happy”, and it’s making both extremes mad.

And while I appreciate your anecdotal evidence, I have some of my own to the contrary. I know a number of people who have given up on the game because they didn’t like one thing or another that was implemented after release. None of them were on either extreme of the casual/hardcore “scale”. They were all middle-of-the-line guys. Trying to appeal to the center doesn’t necessarily mean that the center always ends up happy with what you’ve created. It does, however, virtually guarantee that both extremes will be unhappy.

That’s why I’m saying that it’s time to get off the fence and choose whether they want a game that is friendly to casuals or one that caters to hardcore players. Because their attempts to appease both sides just aren’t working right now.

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

-snip-

That’s why I’m saying that it’s time to get off the fence and choose whether they want a game that is friendly to casuals or one that caters to hardcore players. Because their attempts to appease both sides just aren’t working right now.

I think to a certain degree they are catering to larger guilds with vertical progression in mind with guild missions. those are a grind to be sure. they missed the boat on catering to casual guilds by not dynamically scaling the guild missions for smaller guilds. everything in the open world was supposed to dynamically scale so that you could play how you want. this deviates from that. i think that falls in line with the communication thing that was foremost in your original post.

with BiS gear, casuals don’t need it. You can do anything you want without ascended gear. I have run fractals successfully with sub 80 guildies in green and blue gear. they do get rid of the tiered progression by not gating fractals with gear. you can do the fractals at any level, but if you want to keep progressing you have to get stuff for it. it’s optional. i run dungeons with people in gold gear. gold gear is cheap. heck, if we are being honest, any casual player can pick up a set of exotic without a ton of grind. i think the trick is, “do players enjoy the game?”

i don’t want to deviate from the topic though so i won’t. i would just like to see more honesty from arenanet. they have shown they are capable of it and i would like to see them stick to it.

The reward system of GW2 is whack. I really miss GW1. I’ve been playing since beta and when I tried playing other MMO’s, I feel like the grind at least rewards me a relatively good amount of sense of achievement. Before, I was only looking forward to getting the stuff I think looks neat and it gave me a sense of fulfillment everytime I run a dungeon or get an exotic item. Nowadays, I focus on getting all of my ascended equipments and is stuck on finishing my legendaries because of the precursors yet even when I do get them, the community dismisses its value. The game is grindy in a different sense. In 7 months, I would’ve already achieved final equipments in other games too from farming the same amount of time as I did in gw2.

Ascended really ruined this game for me.

Leo Paul.1659:

The reward system of GW2 is whack. I really miss GW1. I’ve been playing since beta and when I tried playing other MMO’s, I feel like the grind at least rewards me a relatively good amount of sense of achievement. Before, I was only looking forward to getting the stuff I think looks neat and it gave me a sense of fulfillment everytime I run a dungeon or get an exotic item. Nowadays, I focus on getting all of my ascended equipments and is stuck on finishing my legendaries because of the precursors yet even when I do get them, the community dismisses its value.

Yeah, sadly while the community is pretty supportive in general, when you look at that sort of thing there’s usually some level of contempt. I chimed in on map chat once about if anyone was really bothering with Ascended, to say I had an amulet after Feb . . .

They totally ignored that I said I was replacing a green amulet and held off making an exotic (which I could have) in favor of just skipping to the top. I think I got called everything except “casual”, which is weird because I barely play except for the hours between dinner and when I start winding down for sleep.

The game is grindy in a different sense. In 7 months, I would’ve already achieved final equipments in other games too from farming the same amount of time as I did in gw2.

Ascended really ruined this game for me.

I’m not sure if it’s Ascended to blame, precisely. It’s the reaction to it. Oh, and the fact that it’s “cool” to hate on it.

As much as I would like devs to answer these kinds of threads, what you posted in the OP is basically your very subjective view of the game.
Point 1 is “I don’t like dailies”, ok, that’s your opinion. Others do.
Point 2 is “I don’t like GW2’s progression system”. Others do. Your point?
Point 3 calls out staff for being liars without providing evidence and say you dont trust Anet. So?

This thread isn’t listing real issues but simply “I don’t like this and that”.
So what? I don’t like some stuff myself but I don’t demand an answer from Anet.

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

As much as I would like devs to answer these kinds of threads, what you posted in the OP is basically your very subjective view of the game.
Point 1 is “I don’t like dailies”, ok, that’s your opinion. Others do.
Point 2 is “I don’t like GW2’s progression system”. Others do. Your point?
Point 3 calls out staff for being liars without providing evidence and say you dont trust Anet. So?

This thread isn’t listing real issues but simply “I don’t like this and that”.
So what? I don’t like some stuff myself but I don’t demand an answer from Anet.

You clearly didn’t actually read the post so much as skim it.

Please go back and read it again. I don’t appreciate people being blatantly dishonest about the contents of my post simply to make their own point.

ascended is ok for “higher difficulty of the same dungeon or instanced stuff”
to me its ok.

as a semi casual i feel its the best.
it gives hardcore bragging right, which is ok, but it doesnt force my few hours a week trying to speed catch.
skins, agony resist, commander icons etc this is what i would prefer rhe game awarding hardcores with.

but its a casual s opinion.

consumables are also ok as reward for hardcores; revive orbs, instabank, super foods, xtra magic find, one shot summons, or other kind of “non permanent play enhancing stuff”.

all good in my book.

I have no interest in reading the entirety of this or commenting directly, however I must applaud Martin Kerstein for one thing:

You allow debate to continue naturally and do not censor it like some. A forum should not exist within a bubble and you actually seem to take steps to gather information and the feedback of the player base.

I have been reading several posts and realized that you are unlikely to close threads until they really are completely pointless, not because it has something in it that you don’t want to read.

I applaud you for that, Bravi Bravi Bravi. Credit is due.

I feel the ability for people to speak candidly is important in any situation where information is shared. This atmosphere used to simply not exist on these forums but perhaps it has been introduced.

TLDR;
Its great to see these things read and discussed and not trashed immediately in recent times. Kudos.

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

-snip-

I’m not missing that at all. Most opinions on virtually any topic have grey area involved, and the majority floats near the middle.

That said, vertical progression is a model which distinctly favors hardcore players. It’s designed to keep these sorts of people playing by introducing gear at a rapid rate, because even though it can’t possibly keep up with the hardcore crowd, that’s who it’s aimed to cater to. You don’t build a game around vertical progression unless your goal is to keep people playing long-term by chasing after better gear. The horizontal model, by comparison, thrives on making new and shiny gear instead of just making it better. Ergo it’s a model better suited to a casual audience even if the grind for such items is enormous….because throughout that period, they’re not placed at any sort of significant disadvantage statistically. They can still pop in and out of the game and have a decent opportunity at success.

What GW2 is trying to do is have both: it’s introducing vertical progression but at a largely decelerated rate. The idea is pretty obvious: if you introduce it slowly, casuals aren’t hit as hard by the growth in overall player power and have an opportunity to keep up a little better. But at the same time you’re still giving the hardcore players new, better gear to chase after. It would seem, on paper, to be the best of both worlds.

Unfortunately, the core problem behind such a setup is that you can’t possibly introduce the content at a slow-enough rate for most casual audiences, relegating such “grinds” to a long-term goal that feels out of their reach. A month of dedicated daily play for one item isn’t something that a typical casual player is able to do. On the other hand, when you introduce it as slowly as GW2 has, your hardcore players gobble it up in days and are once again left with nothing to do but wait and complain about a lack of content. Thus both parties end up unhappy to varying degrees. Yeah, you minimized the number of very vocal complaints because only the extreme ends of the spectrum are totally outraged at the very idea of what you’ve done….but the groups in the middle aren’t necessarily placated by what you did either.

Indeed, casuals have the same access to the game, and can eventually earn the same rewards as long-term goals. But that’s missing the forest for the trees. The problem isn’t the notion that the game is half-hardcores and half-casuals, the problem is that you’re trying to appeal to both extremes at the same time, and the result is a model that doesn’t please either extreme, and often leaves the people in the middle disappointed to boot. They would be better off picking one end and then compromising to a very limited degree towards the middle, as that has the best shot of retention and general happiness. Trying to continually play the middle isn’t actually making the middle people necessarily “happy”, and it’s making both extremes mad.

And while I appreciate your anecdotal evidence, I have some of my own to the contrary. I know a number of people who have given up on the game because they didn’t like one thing or another that was implemented after release. None of them were on either extreme of the casual/hardcore “scale”. They were all middle-of-the-line guys. Trying to appeal to the center doesn’t necessarily mean that the center always ends up happy with what you’ve created. It does, however, virtually guarantee that both extremes will be unhappy.

That’s why I’m saying that it’s time to get off the fence and choose whether they want a game that is friendly to casuals or one that caters to hardcore players. Because their attempts to appease both sides just aren’t working right now.

I wish the devs listened to people like you but I think they are forced to listen to shareholders and NCSoft

Sahfur.5612:

I have no interest in reading the entirety of this or commenting directly, however I must applaud Martin Kerstein for one thing:

You allow debate to continue naturally and do not censor it like some. A forum should not exist within a bubble and you actually seem to take steps to gather information and the feedback of the player base.

I have been reading several posts and realized that you are unlikely to close threads until they really are completely pointless, not because it has something in it that you don’t want to read.

I applaud you for that, Bravi Bravi Bravi. Credit is due.

I feel the ability for people to speak candidly is important in any situation where information is shared. This atmosphere used to simply not exist on these forums but perhaps it has been introduced.

TLDR;
Its great to see these things read and discussed and not trashed immediately in recent times. Kudos.

You think that response was professional?

Drew.1865:

You think that response was professional?

. . . yes.

Why? I didn’t see swearing, name-calling, threats of banning, or other things which could have gone in as over the top chest-beating expected from “unprofessional” moderators. That response was measured, but was phrased in a way that left no doubt “I think you crossed a line”.

Not with the topic title, mind you, but with the action of changing it back after a moderator altered it. Someone else covered it earlier. A public act of defiance deserves a public chastising.

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

-snip-

That said, vertical progression is a model which distinctly favors hardcore players….

That’s why I’m saying that it’s time to get off the fence and choose whether they want a game that is friendly to casuals or one that caters to hardcore players. Because their attempts to appease both sides just aren’t working right now.

I just wanted to address these two points. It really is a subjective opinion to state vertical progression favors the hardcore. No it doesn’t. It favors those who are willing to put in the effort to progress. In a game where PvE content was relegated to 40+ man raids, then yes, I would probably agree with you. In GW2 that is not the case. I progress based on my effort. It might take me a long time to achieve that progress, but I can and will achieve it. I am not falling behind anyone. yes their are some stat increases, but they do warrant any concern from me as the difference is not that significant.

I am also like Mackdose in that I think they have made a decision and have picked a side. It just does not appear to be your side, or, for that matter, the hardcore side. It seems they have taken to the middle path and that seems to work for me and many others.

/shrug

[opinion] If you’ve seen any of my posts on here you know I’m disgusted with GW2, and ANet. What really irks me is they don’t update GW1, you know, for GW1 fans that expected GW2 to be an extension of the original. No grind, blah blah, play the way you want, instead we got the exact opposite.

It’s not unfair to be angry or not trust the devs that have deceived us, and what’s even more sad is recently one of the devs said if we like GW1 we should be playing that instead, to which I replied… then why abandon the game, do you expect us to play in a ghost town because there are no updates or balance? Is it unfair to ask for some content in that game since this one obviously has a firm stance of not allowing anything GW into GW2?

I’ve accepted the direction this game is going, I disagree with it, I won’t tolerate it, what really gets to me is how oblivious ANet is nowadays. WoW2.0 times a thousand, this game surpasses any Korean grind imaginable. It spits in the face of the GW franchise, especially with the lack of decent pvp.[/endopinion]

There, could you not delete my posts for once?

Look, as an Everquest fan I can certainly sympathize with the fact that GW2 is not an extension of GW1. I was so very angry that EQ2 was not EQ with better graphics. Yeah, I complained and critiqued and eventually, after 4 months, left.

You may just have to accept the fact that this is not GW1 with better graphics, or an extension. This is it’s own game. Hopefully you can enjoy it, if not maybe it’s time to move on.

Mudfin.4637:

It really is a subjective opinion to state vertical progression favors the hardcore. No it doesn’t. It favors those who are willing to put in the effort to progress. In a game where PvE content was relegated to 40+ man raids, then yes, I would probably agree with you. In GW2 that is not the case. I progress based on my effort. It might take me a long time to achieve that progress, but I can and will achieve it. I am not falling behind anyone. yes their are some stat increases, but they do warrant any concern from me as the difference is not that significant.

Except that you are, and you even admitted that you are by stating that it will take you longer to achieve that progress.

Vertical progression naturally favors the hardcore player because it will take them significantly less time to progress than someone like you. Ergo they will reach the peak faster than you, and will outperform you until you reach the peak too. At which point, the peak will be raised another few thousand feet, and you’ll fall behind again.

This is effectively the same as claiming that completing a marathon is the same as winning first place. It’s clearly not. The guy who runs faster and smarter than you clearly beat you in that race, and he had an advantage up until you finally caught up at the finish line. And he will continue to beat you every time a new race comes up. You might be proud of yourself for completing the goal eventually, but if you’re wise, then you wouldn’t ever try to claim that you’re a better runner than he is.

Hardcore players are favored by design in a vertical progression system, because they always finish the content and obtain the stats before everyone else. Long-term, certainly, you’ll have caught up and obtained that same gear….but in most games, the hardcore player is already yet another tier ahead of you by then. The much slower rate of growth in GW2’s vertical progression system will lessen this problem, but not remove it. It’s still going to be there, and when Ascended armor and weapons come out, it’ll get even worse as the stat gap (and the time it takes to catch up) significantly widen.

I am also like Mackdose in that I think they have made a decision and have picked a side. It just does not appear to be your side, or, for that matter, the hardcore side. It seems they have taken to the middle path and that seems to work for me and many others.

You didn’t read my earlier posts, it seems.

I’m getting tired of repeating this, so this will be the very last time: I don’t care what direction they choose, so long as they choose one and tell everyone about it. If it’s the opposite of the one I want, so be it. But they need to look over their data, choose a path, and then stick to it. A lot of the bitterness in this forum is simply because of that refusal to decide what direction GW2 is going to go, that feeling that the game is flipping and flopping on what it wants to do and who it wants to be. Playing to the middle isn’t going to work in the long-term. It hasn’t for any other MMO out there, and GW2 isn’t unique in that regard. They need to decide which players they intend to keep over the life of the game, and start trying to cater to those players. And they need to make that decision soon. This series of patches they’ve promised that would deliver “an expansion’s worth of content” is, at least judging from the responses in these forums and across multiple internet polls, a sort of “make or break” period for many people. I’d like to see it succeed, but to do that, they need to start making those tough decisions as a dev team.

I appreciate that you have your own opinion and you’re welcome to it, but I would appreciate it if you took the time to actually read my opinion rather than responding to a false straw-manned version of it.

critickitten.1498:

snip to make it fit

Actually I read your posts, and points. I just don’t agree with them at all. I only commented on the two above because they were the ones I had an opinion I felt like sharing. So please don’t assume I didn’t, that’s rather arrogant. If by my response you don’t think I did than maybe you didn’t express your self very good, or like I personally believe, I just don’t agree with you.

Do you have a side? Yes you do. One you stated rather well both before and after your “break”. Is your whole thesis based on your beliefs on what you think is happening? Yes it is. All I stated was that I agree with Mackdose that they have picked a path after reviewing their data and are staying with it. Again, you don’t agree. It is my opinion that you don’t agree because it is not your side, or what you’d like to see.

As to vertical progression we will just have to disagree. Yes, I will be “behind” poor choice of words, since you took it literally to fit your argument. But to use your analogy, in the marathon I don’t care that someone beat me, I wasn’t racing. I was just running to do it, and I did. In most games competition in the PvE environment is only determined by World Firsts, and that only happens once. Everyone else is completing content to achieve a goal, or, in other words, progress. I could care less if I am not the first. I can be the 1000th and be happy that I progressed. So, you see, vertical progression is not for the hardcore. It’s for everyone who wants to put forth the effort.

I watched this thread get to 6 pages and can’t believe the MMO community today.

I wish we could go back to the days before public beta testing. Back when you bought a game and played it for what it was, not for what your nasally one sided voice kittened at the devs for it to be.

Gestankfaust.4216:

I watched this thread get to 6 pages and can’t believe the MMO community today.

I wish we could go back to the days before public beta testing. Back when you bought a game and played it for what it was, not for what your nasally one sided voice kittened at the devs for it to be.

If you played this game in beta as I did you would see why criticisms of this games development after release are valid and not nasally one sided. Why can’t players discuss the state of the game and their opinions on it without being insulted?

Play the game provided…stop acting like you were promised something else. Try and remember what it was like in the old days…I doubt you can…but…