Guild Wars 2

-Lion Arch gets changed around depending on what is going on in part of the story. with the new game coming out, Orr should be remade to at least look like life is going back to it.

There is about 3 maps worth of undead land that could potentially be remade as new areas to re-explore. Besides Trahearne, restore the land in the personal story. I think is about time Orr sees the light, this also goes for delivering also on their “living world”.

The problem with that is that it would be taking content away for new content and-or if it’s just a visual change, that would mean that first timers see a land that is all too healed to be the orr that happens in the personal story.

Maybe think of it as “Orr will need years to heal from Zhaitan’s corruption and over 250 years under the sea” instead!

-That is a good point. but players also missed out on season 1 with scarlet on various maps and currently there is no way to replay it. perhaps then “Heart of Orr” area could change somewhat, perhaps a small visual change around the 3 maps. maybe even remove the amount of undead. it seems sometimes there is a lot of undead in the area to even travel straight before one of them pulls you or knocks you.

I do think the density of Risen in Orr may be quite intentional – and while it was quite scary the first time around, I consider it one of the main reasons Orr is fun in the first place nowadays.

Planting some green foliage around the Source of Orr could be pretty though, point taken. Especially with them having proven to do phasing for stuff like Lion’s Arch.

But consider: Someone goes in to try and do the Source of Orr quest, and walks through some luscious greens, only to THEN cause the source of those greens in the first place as a story. It might feel odd.

Another problem is that if all the changes we caused were staying, the world of Tyria would lose a lot of threats. The majority of the centaur wars would be over. Krait castles would be destroyed! The Crucible of Eternity would be a ruin á la Thaumanova! And much more.

On the upside: Anet probably have some smart plans for the expansion in place, to give the world that smidge of extra permanence in its changes.

I’ve been thinking that when we eventually get to the point where the fight starts heading toward Bubbles then a redo of Orr could be done then BUT keep the old Orr as an option when zoning in. New Orr has settlers, new events, new aquatic foes, and remnant Risen and is the kick off for the new story; old Orr is for PS, temples, loot bags etc.

Having just completed the personal story for the first time in years, having been waiting for them to put the chapters back in order, I agree. It’s time for Orr to be restored. Now that they can present personal story missions with maps that predate the destruction of Lion’s Arch, they can make Orr a nicer place. They don’t have to stop the events. There are still innumerable undead. The undead didn’t just stop being a thing because Zhaitan died. But they can make life return to Orr, and then just have personal story moments show players the old Orr.

Rebuilding Orr to make it more in keeping with Tyria today isn’t any more, or less meaningful than rebuilding LA, and they’ve done that three times.

I thought it was said the world is to be living, so changes such as this should come. It’s been 3 years since launch, don’t think Anet should be holding back for new possible players. After 3 years if the core game hasn’t appealed to you, you might not ever play with exceptions of new expansions.

Zhaitan might be dead, but his corruption is not gone. Orr has been through over 250 years of corruption and decay from not only the elder dragon, but being at the bottom of the ocean no less.
And while Zhaitan himself might be gone, there are other sources of corruption as well. Namely, his dragon lieutenants… I doubt they are all dead, and if Tequatl has shown us anything, it’s that the ones that are left could probably be more powerful then ever… (It’s my personal belief that Tequatl’s sudden boost of strength and power is that he’s becoming the new Elder Dragon… But, I have no real proof of that…)
Point is, even 3 years is not a long time when you consider how long Orr was corrupted. And things are still working against it’s purification…

From a purely game mechanic stand point… If they did reclaim Orr, what would happen with the Temple events? Something would have to replace them, after all.

Maybe the next expansion can deal with the restoration of Orr and our forays into the Crystal Desert and Elona?

Most of my 8 chars haven’t done the final part of the personal story so how can they be in Orr where it’s being restored because Zhaitan is defeated? They haven’t defeated him yet. Another point, people say put some greenery in select spots. If ANet does that in a while people will ask, why isn’t there more greenery being put in if Orr is being healed? And then push for more greenery, then more greenery to show progressive healing. Unless there is phasing to separate the chars that have done it and the ones that haven’t, then I don’t think it should be remade.

They should at some point add the rest of Orr (also to complete the current world map as I believe they’ve expressed a wish to do so.) These maps should have SIGNIFIGANTLY less Risen and the land should be brighter and greener.

Once upon a time, there was an online RPG. In this game, there were eventually some events added, late in the game’s life cycle, that forever altered certain parts of the world.

Of course, there were many, many people who hadn’t done those events yet. It would make no sense for them to see such changes already wrought.

Fortunately, the developers of this game made it so that instanced copies of its maps were generated, and if the team had nobody for whom the changes would apply, it appeared the old way. In some areas, EVERYONE had to have finished the content for a map to be in its “new” version.

Guild Wars 2, however, uses a persistent world. Scores of people can be on a map at once; over a hundred, in extremity. It would make absolutely no sense for different people, standing right next to each other, to see different things.

I can hear you asking, “Oh, but why not just make a separate version, and people flagged as having it enabled would go THERE instead!” Aside from the added resources this would take to maintain, it would prevent those people from doing things with the rest of the player base. And while one could say that grouping would somehow get around this, an end-user like me wouldn’t even begin to know how programmers would manage that in a persistent setting.

Both the instanced and persistent designs for MMORPGs have their strengths, and they have their weaknesses. It’s not a question of “which is better” (intrinsically a matter of personal opinion), it’s just that this is how Anet chose to make GW2, and anything they do must be able to work within it.

problem is personal story leading up to zhaitan

Orr has its own weird kind of beauty, and I would hate for that to be lost.

While a QA pass to fix remaining bugs and maybe the addition of some new events would be great, I would still prefer they put more effort into brand new areas than reworking old ones.

As was mentioned, currently only half of orr is accessible. Maybe later on when a new expansion or living story opens up the backside of orr there may be less evidence of corruption.

Or MORE since you might see Palwa Joko’s minions crop up as Zhaitan’s start to thin out the closer you get to Elona.

Say NO to removing content.

New content should be added. Old content should not be removed.

While it’d be cool to see, it’d cause problems with the personal story, like everyone else has said.

From a lore standpoint, there’s also the issue of it having sat at the bottom of the ocean for hundreds of years. Realistically, the ground would be so full of salt that Orr’d be pretty much doomed to stay barren for another several hundred years. Nothing could grow there and that has nothing to do with the dragon.

I killed Shiro in Factions. Why are there still Afflicted in Kaineng City? Because MMO (or quasi-MMO).

If you dig around, you’ll see that Anet has already stated that the personal story now happens in the past. So, it really doesn’t matter whether your character has done the story yet or not.

There should be some signs that Orr is healing. If nothing else, they could just have the original, personal story take place on a special server, that still shows an entirely corrupted Orr, while the main map is now showing signs of healing.

Rather than revamping Orr, I’d prefer to see entirely new maps. Orr is its own kind of fun, even if it’s 3 years old now.

Imagine 4 years from now: would you still want a revamped Orr if it meant 3 (or more) fewer new maps (of equivalent complexity/size) ?

IndigoSundown.5419:

I killed Shiro in Factions. Why are there still Afflicted in Kaineng City? Because MMO (or quasi-MMO).

There aren’t for me. Instead, I get level 24 versions of Am Fah, Jade Brotherhood, and some new guys…. that I don’t feel like I should discuss. Spoilage and all, you understand.

There could always have 2 versions of Orr. One for pre Zhaitan and another for post. Each with there own different events.
Yes it would split the player base a little, but only in that area.

They need to reevaluate how the connection between PS/LS and the Living World combine. The “simple” method would be to convert the PS into a instanced NPE, so anything outside of the NPE can evolve freely without hindering new players. This also allows them to modify and “reuse” the different zones in Tyria, based on how the world changes.

This was always my issue with levels in GW2. It makes zones reverse level gated, where doing lower level areas aren’t as appealing as higher ones. They keep trying to solve this by scaling loot to level and downscaling characters to promote usage. However it would be much simpler and add a more diverse and “living world” if they just had all characters start the same, new players would “level”/learn through the PS/LS and have everything else be equal. The initial change would be a pita, but it also adds longevity to areas and more room for new and easier to add content.

simplesimon.2084:

There could always have 2 versions of Orr. One for pre Zhaitan and another for post. Each with there own different events.
Yes it would split the player base a little, but only in that area.

^This.
With the option to “time-travel” to help newcomers if we want to.
(like maybe an Asura npc)

Duke Darkwood.4237:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I killed Shiro in Factions. Why are there still Afflicted in Kaineng City? Because MMO (or quasi-MMO).

There aren’t for me. Instead, I get level 24 versions of Am Fah, Jade Brotherhood, and some new guys…. that I don’t feel like I should discuss. Spoilage and all, you understand.

Ok, well, it’s been a while since I checked back in. There were some really nasty Afflicted team builds in Winds of Change. I guess it only makes sense that there would need to be cleanup.

Still, my point stands. I’ve defeated bosses in many MMO’s and supposedly won the war, but since others haven’t… GW could because of its instanced nature, offer changed mobs.

Sold Out.7625:

Another problem is that if all the changes we caused were staying, the world of Tyria would lose a lot of threats. The majority of the centaur wars would be over. Krait castles would be destroyed! The Crucible of Eternity would be a ruin á la Thaumanova! And much more.

Yeah. If you went with “All hearts done” a LOT of threats are clear out. The Centaurs are pushed back/land more stable in Kryta. Pretty much, the world is a better place overall besides maybe Ascalon, but that’s because the ghosts respawn.

Which is something that sadly isn’t played with much in the story. Adelbern would eventually come back (forcing that Priory team out). Barridan as well until Rytlock did his little thing in that crypt.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Zhaitan might be dead, but his corruption is not gone. Orr has been through over 250 years of corruption and decay from not only the elder dragon, but being at the bottom of the ocean no less.
And while Zhaitan himself might be gone, there are other sources of corruption as well. Namely, his dragon lieutenants… I doubt they are all dead, and if Tequatl has shown us anything, it’s that the ones that are left could probably be more powerful then ever… (It’s my personal belief that Tequatl’s sudden boost of strength and power is that he’s becoming the new Elder Dragon… But, I have no real proof of that…)
Point is, even 3 years is not a long time when you consider how long Orr was corrupted. And things are still working against it’s purification…

From a purely game mechanic stand point… If they did reclaim Orr, what would happen with the Temple events? Something would have to replace them, after all.

The length of time is irrelevant. According to the end of the personal story, when Trehearn performed the ritual in the source of Orr it reversed the corruption. When Zhaitan died it should have started spreading. It would be noticeable by now.

nah…unless it gets added alongside the current orr….no more “replacement content”.

Kal Spiro.9745:

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Zhaitan might be dead, but his corruption is not gone. Orr has been through over 250 years of corruption and decay from not only the elder dragon, but being at the bottom of the ocean no less.
And while Zhaitan himself might be gone, there are other sources of corruption as well. Namely, his dragon lieutenants… I doubt they are all dead, and if Tequatl has shown us anything, it’s that the ones that are left could probably be more powerful then ever… (It’s my personal belief that Tequatl’s sudden boost of strength and power is that he’s becoming the new Elder Dragon… But, I have no real proof of that…)
Point is, even 3 years is not a long time when you consider how long Orr was corrupted. And things are still working against it’s purification…

From a purely game mechanic stand point… If they did reclaim Orr, what would happen with the Temple events? Something would have to replace them, after all.

The length of time is irrelevant. According to the end of the personal story, when Trehearn performed the ritual in the source of Orr it reversed the corruption. When Zhaitan died it should have started spreading. It would be noticeable by now.

It /started/ the reverse of the corruption. To quote Trehearn himself…

“The corruption is gone from this chamber. It will take time to spread throughout Orr…assuming we can destroy the dragon.”

He never stated how long it would take to fully heal Orr. Certainly right there at the Artesian Well you can see it right away in the Personal Story, which fits what said. But anything past that? An indeterminate amount of time is still needed.

And again, just because Zhaitan is dead doesn’t mean that all the sources of corruption are gone. Certainly the ~biggest~ one is gone (aka, Zhaitan himself…) but again, I doubt he was the only source. Any of his dragon lieutenants (like Tequatl) fit that bill.

Point is, time is very relevant when it comes to something like corruption of a land that has been poisoned for over 250 years.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Duke Darkwood.4237:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I killed Shiro in Factions. Why are there still Afflicted in Kaineng City? Because MMO (or quasi-MMO).

There aren’t for me. Instead, I get level 24 versions of Am Fah, Jade Brotherhood, and some new guys…. that I don’t feel like I should discuss. Spoilage and all, you understand.

Ok, well, it’s been a while since I checked back in. There were some really nasty Afflicted team builds in Winds of Change. I guess it only makes sense that there would need to be cleanup.

Still, my point stands. I’ve defeated bosses in many MMO’s and supposedly won the war, but since others haven’t… GW could because of its instanced nature, offer changed mobs.

Which was the thrust of my first post in this thread, in which I un-subtlely described GW1’s method without actually naming GW1.

And yes, the Afflicted in WoC are beastly and then some, benefiting from sticks Anet’s monster buildcrafters developed during Nightfall and Eye of the North. However, as each area gets “Cleansed”, it stays cleansed. (Even the Afflicted-afflicted areas on Shing Jea island, although their replacement enemies are different, since the city gangs don’t go there.) And it actually did so dynamically – each individual quest flagged that area to take you to its new version (unless at least one party member did not clear that quest yet).

Lastly, there is an NPC in Kaineng Center who you can talk to to take the passive effect “Memories of Purity” (or some name like that), which would allow you to visit the old versions without having to find someone pre-WoC. And yes, the NPC can take that effect off, too. (Contrast War in Kryta, where spawns depended specifically on having WiK quests active. Even back in GW1, the extent to which you could watch Arenanet improving methods over time was visible.)

They could just “instance” the updated Orr. So people who completed their Personal Story would be loaded into a Post Zaitan map (and if needed could go back to Pre Zaitan).
This way players could feel the story progress.

What about having it look the same before the last quest on your personal story?
And after that (Give or take time X) It changes.

And everybody who hasn’t done the personal story goes in the same instance of Orr, but after you have done the very last quest, it changes drastically over time.

But even if this change would happen like that, it would still be flawed, people not doing the personal story cause they wanna experience Orr like it was, friends that can’t play together in Orr cause one of them has finished the story, oh.. i see loads of issues with this.

However, it would be epic having to be part of something that does change with your personal story, and it’s just 3 zones that you can’t play together in until you have finished the story, or that you make another char. Anyways…

Surbrus.6942:

Say NO to removing content.

New content should be added. Old content should not be removed.

I’d like to see some link maps, one day, stretching from Cursed Shore to the Crystal Desert, which could potentially take you through the “new, lush, green” Orr, following Trahearne’s cleansing.

I’ve been thinking much the same as the OP, and I don’t really think it’s undoable. You’d just have to combine a few different mechanics.

The original Guild Wars actually has pre-searing and post-searing maps. The one flaw there is that once the searing happened, you can’t go back.

City of Heroes had another approach, that might add what’s needed in this case. They at one point decided it was a good idea to make old content accessible again using an intermediate zone that featured time manipulation. Once you’d finished the content in your original leveling timeline, you could choose to revisit it. Good example of having your cake and eating it: new content gets added, old content remains accessible.

So why not: have Asura time gates leading to ‘Old Orr’, add an epic story of how you go help the pact in the past so there’s more survivors for future dragon fights.

My problem is that the Orr maps are my favourites – so I’d like the option to undo every personal story on any of my toons if that should be implemented.

Over a period of 2-3 years how much new plant growth do you really think you’ll see in soil that has been reclaimed from salt water where it was for 250 years and also corrupted by an elder dragon?

The corruption is beginning to be cleared by the ritual but I think that it’s reasonable to assume it’ll take centuries for Orr to recover. If the races of Tyria were actively attempt to reclaim the land there then the process could be accelerated and you could see results in a few decades but even given the will to do so there are dragons and undead that would hinder that process (I wouldn’t want to be the first to settle in an undead wasteland).

In GW3, maybe.

Pifil.5193:

Over a period of 2-3 years how much new plant growth do you really think you’ll see in soil that has been reclaimed from salt water where it was for 250 years and also corrupted by an elder dragon?

To be fair, it is a fantasy game… and there are wizards!

Yeah – Risen Wizards.

Killing Zhaitan didn’t get rid of his leftover minions. As long as they exist, they are a literal blight on the landscape. The foulness of their corruption is not eco-friendly.

Sure, the source of that corruption is gone. And the Source of Orr is purified. But the land needs time to heal.

And even if all remaining Risen were exterminated and burned tomorrow, do you really think that using magic to replace the plants is the best idea? Let the land recover on its own. If you want nature to recover, then let it recover naturally. (I really do like the idea of a potential post-Zhaitan “Source of Orr” instance, showing the earliest signs of this. Perhaps if a story instance in the future ever takes place there?)

In the theoretical world of Guild Wars 3, I expect Orr to be a thriving nation once more. And in the central plaza of Arah, there will be two statues: One to the hero who put an end to the source of the corruption, and one to the scholar who enabled the land to begin healing. (I know most of you don’t like him, but he does deserve credit for his own deeds, and at least he never took credit for ours, unlike certain gods I know.)

They shoud change personal story to new elder dragon, or make istances for zaitan story, but orr shoud be rebilded to some point, less undead, more ppl rebilding, trying to make life there. When we start going to south part of map orr coud be good starting point to launch expeditions to the south.

Broom.2561:

I’ve been thinking much the same as the OP, and I don’t really think it’s undoable. You’d just have to combine a few different mechanics.

The original Guild Wars actually has pre-searing and post-searing maps. The one flaw there is that once the searing happened, you can’t go back.

City of Heroes had another approach, that might add what’s needed in this case. They at one point decided it was a good idea to make old content accessible again using an intermediate zone that featured time manipulation. Once you’d finished the content in your original leveling timeline, you could choose to revisit it. Good example of having your cake and eating it: new content gets added, old content remains accessible.

So why not: have Asura time gates leading to ‘Old Orr’, add an epic story of how you go help the pact in the past so there’s more survivors for future dragon fights.

I do like that idea….. but there are a few issues that could had been avoided if they planned this better. The entire multi-verse theory they have going on with the Mists could had answered this problem had they thought it through during early planning…. but I think they were afraid it would conflict with the WvW lore.

In an odd thought…. I just realized something. Orr is the only map that has PS continuity to it. I remember Orr being a rush job for launch, and that may explain why so much of the Pact invasion is rolled up into Dynamic events. If you remember the mission structure in GW1, you used those to open up new zones (with a contingency route through a high level side zone). *I always wondered why the late PS stories didn’t have us start at one spot, and have us exit the mission in a new location, rather then the exact spot we started in. * Also, clearing missions in GW1 usually opened a back entrance to the mission area for exploration. These would had been good tools for the Orr segment of PS.

a gradual rebuilding of Orr should happen, yes. Starting with the straits of devastation.

Surbrus.6942:

Say NO to removing content.

New content should be added. Old content should not be removed.

Yeah god forbid the game changes to follow the story.

Easy solution:

Make Undead infested Orr an instances place for those who are doing the story thing.

New Orr or cleansed Orr can be real time BUT maybe there could be a way to visit undead infested Orr because when you think about it… Map completion, events, content… Yeah. Would be a waste to see it un-playable cough LSs1 cough.

McNinja.5417:

Surbrus.6942:

Say NO to removing content.

New content should be added. Old content should not be removed.

Yeah god forbid the game changes to follow the story.

You do realize, lore-wise, Tequatl has risen into Zhaitan’s role after “he” fell. That’s why Teq still comes around every day, and that there’s still risen in Orr.

Also, did no one realize that this thread was necroed from about 4 weeks ago?

Duke Darkwood.4237:

Yeah – Risen Wizards.

Killing Zhaitan didn’t get rid of his leftover minions. As long as they exist, they are a literal blight on the landscape. The foulness of their corruption is not eco-friendly.

Sure, the source of that corruption is gone. And the Source of Orr is purified. But the land needs time to heal.

And even if all remaining Risen were exterminated and burned tomorrow, do you really think that using magic to replace the plants is the best idea? Let the land recover on its own. If you want nature to recover, then let it recover naturally. (I really do like the idea of a potential post-Zhaitan “Source of Orr” instance, showing the earliest signs of this. Perhaps if a story instance in the future ever takes place there?)

In the theoretical world of Guild Wars 3, I expect Orr to be a thriving nation once more. And in the central plaza of Arah, there will be two statues: One to the hero who put an end to the source of the corruption, and one to the scholar who enabled the land to begin healing. (I know most of you don’t like him, but he does deserve credit for his own deeds, and at least he never took credit for ours, unlike certain gods I know.)

The land doesn’t need time to heal. Anet can heal it as fast as it wants. Zhaitan is dead. The source is purified.

The issue with Orr is that me and several thousand other people have continuously killed kitten near everything on Orr multiple times. Use phasing to segregate those who haven’t finished the story and those who have. There is no reason whatsoever (outside of bullkitten game logic to make us do the same tired kitten over and over again) that Orr would still have this many undead. By this point in-game my character has murdered the entire population of Orr multiple times. How are there still undead left?

Answer: there aren’t, Anet is just lazy and wants us to keep doing the same stupid chains over and over because they can’t come up with a good way to fix Orr.

Instead or remaking it, I’d say just make available the rest of Orr. It’s less that half way playable as is. In new areas you can start showing the slow change of Orr.

I don’t see them putting in phasing as they don’t like dividing the player base. It would make it too annoying if you are on a char that hasn’t done the story line and you’re playing with a friend who has. (And with so many people with multiple level 80s, that’s going to happen frequently as most people are not going to do the story line all the way through on every level 80 they have). Or if you are playing with your guild and some end up in one phase of Orr and others in the other phase. And I don’t see them healing Orr as, again, there are too many players who haven’t done the story line on all their chars so it won’t make sense for it to be healed.

Indeed, why pick only on Orr. Why not ask for all the land to start losing its risen now that, for the char that you are playing right then, Zhaitan is dead?

If this topic were about updating mobs, I would agree, but it’s not.

Problem is with story as already stated. You cannot change the area, since it’s part of the story to be under Zhaitans influence. Although there’s another chance that Zhaitan just went into hibernation to recover from the damage.

Another thing about Zhaitan, when he was defeated, he might have bled out alot of it’s magical energy, which is necromantic in nature, thus causing “magical miasma” contamination, that will persist for some time.

Another way to look at it, the cleansing process might take over hundreds of years, until Orr begins to look living and green, so literally: “Don’t expect it to change in your life time” :P

I could see some added new events where an area gets cleansed and starts to get greener then the risen come back to retake it and make it ugly again. Of course those would have to be really spread out time wise for it to make sense but it would help add to the cleansing of Orr which is supposedly happening. .