Guild Wars 2

Monster thread
So today I noticed the Overwolf App challenge submission deadline has officially closed, I’d honestly never taken a serious look at this thing until last night. When the contest was originally announced, I assumed it was a competition to make mobile apps that took advantage of the Gw2 api libraries in ways that could keep players connected to tyria via their smartphones. Cool. What I now realize is it’s basically just an in game graphics overlay program, and the majority of these “apps” are just photoshop overlays of the wvw map and scoreboard that update in real time according to the api.

Now, my initial reaction to this was “oh that’s kinda cool, I thought addons were frowned upon in gw2.” Then I was like “Wait, why are they using a 3rd party software to do this?” Using an overlay program just seem like a stupid and clunky workaround to not having addon support in your game, and pitting people against each other to make these fake* addons is really confusing to me. As a developer, why wouldn’t you just allow creators to throw these overlays into the client game folder directly? Having to load up a 3rd party app every time you play is a waste of the player’s time. The idea doesn’t even work as a marketing effort. I guess I could understand if some 3rd party company paid you a bunch of money to promote their software in your game, but you still must realize how cheesy this all looks at face value. People don’t see Anet promoting innovation and creativity, they see Anet leaning on some small 3rd party bloatware to provide a feature they should be able to implement themselves.

The potential
I can think of like 20 feature complaints/requests (improved death recap ui, party damage trackers, build templates, various ui improvements, ect..) that could have all been solved with simple addons in some way. Can’t you simply limit the access of modders? Like just giving access to just the string data of combat chat and the skill api library would solve death recap customization and let PvE heros use damage leaderboards to quantify/add a competitive element to dungeon run efficiency. Giving access to trait choice data would solve build templates (eg; parse through selected traits and store which traits are selected on client memory, then when they wanna re-apply that build, parse back through the stored trait choices and re-apply them, throw it into a ui that minimizes to an icon by the map and you’ve got build templates).

The opposition
So what’s the problem? With the FOV update behind us, what sort of advantages would addons give? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is maybe a window that displayed enemy cooldowns based on combat text (like when when you target someone, grab their name and parse through last 4 minutes of combat text and get the timestamps for when they used their skills and show me an approximation of their current skillbar), but even that would only be accurate for skills that do damage to the character, it wouldn’t track defensive cooldowns or things like lich form/portal (actual important skills).

We should also remember that people have been “modding” this game explicitly since release. You can still find speed/teleport hacks, wall hacks, anti gravity, botting engines if you know where to look. Setting up addons and re-evaluating what the client has access to would filter out a lot of these malicious tools.

TLDR: you’re throwing a competition to basically make addons then not supporting actual addons, why? Is there still an argument for addons giving unfair advantages over other players in combat? if so, what is it?

Zodian.6597:

The potential
I can think of like 20 feature complaints/requests (improved death recap ui, party damage trackers, build templates, various ui improvements, ect..) that could have all been solved with simple addons in some way.

Slipping that into the middle of a lot of paragraphs isn’t going to keep people from turning this into an anti-dps-meter thread.

I totally agree on this one. This whole Overwolf App challenge and fuss around it seems really weird to me.

If you want people to make use of your API (which is already at a pretty awesome state) and create their own stuff – just give them at least a few simple options to write in-game addons. Block access to any unwanted features like controlling character and it is good to go. No need for complicated workarounds and 3rd-party software. You will be amazed what players will create.

Yes, yes, I know developers are busy with expansion and stuff and will probably be busy for a long time after. I can wait and I’m sure other players can wait as well. GW2 UI is convenient enough to live without addons. Though addons will be a really good addition to the game.

But overlay applications like Overwolf… those just seem to be some strange workaround. And a really buggy one I should say – I tried to play with Overwolf and simply removed it after having to deal with cursor capture issues for a few hours. It is totally inconvenient and so frustrating that I just can’t stand it. And of course noone mentions those a lot.

There are a few good apps there, yes, and I am sure those help some people and improve their gaming experience, but the same could be said about pretty much any useful information about the GW2 on the web. That isn’t the point of the thread.

Here’s the thing. They are actually doing a kitten good job hyping up HoT (if they can keep the momentum going then it will be a successful launch). The problem with that is the major demographics of ppl getting hyped that are actually going to buy this game. 50% of them are going to be coming from other MMOs that have small features GW2 doesn’t have, and the other 50% are old Gw2 players that left because Gw2 lacked features they wanted.

When HoT releases, there will be a spike in new players across the board. And the forums are going to be lit up with suggestions and questions and complaints from players new and old asking why x feature was never added. What Anet needs to come to terms with is their speed. At the end of the day; they are a corporation. This makes them incredibly slow with reactionary development. There is no way in hell that Anet is going to be fast enough to retain the majority of these players.

Supporting addons should be seen as an investment in development time and player retention. Subletting the smaller stuff to addon creators puts the responsibility of answering this inevitable maelstrom of complaints into the hands of people who are actually capable of responding to them quickly (without being held to the standard of AAA development and corporate structure). I don’t think addons will retain all players, but it could keep a huge chunk of them. And people that are willing to modify/customize their gaming experience might just be the ones most likely to spend money on a cash shop that allows for modification and customization of their characters. This is a lucrative player demographic, no matter how big or small it ends up being.

Perhaps, this would be better suited in the API sub-forum, where those Devs concerned with this subject read and post more often.

Good luck.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Perhaps, this would be better suited in the API sub-forum, where those Devs concerned with this subject read and post more often.

Good luck.

I think this post extends the boundaries of that sub-forum. The api subforum is pretty stagnant anyways.

Mods access the client, API accesses the ANet database servers via the web. You really don’t want people mucking with your client.

Behellagh.1468:

Mods access the client, API accesses the ANet database servers via the web. You really don’t want people mucking with your client.

I think you’re getting confused. I’m saying there should be a folder within the gw2 game folder that they can add apps built off api values to and a way to activate those “apps” in game without the need for a 3rd party overlay software. Nobody is messing with the game server values. But there should also be a way to get character specific information from the local game folder (eg; chat logs, trait choice file, ect…) to utilize within addons.

Example; Soul Reaping V, VII, XI trait line gets written to a text file as “5 5 7 11” because it is the 5th line in Necro traits, then takes 5, 7, 11. You could simply have a text file called CurrentBuild.txt within the game folder that determines trait line choice and an addon could snapshot the values of this text file when the user clicks a “Save Build” button, then they’d be prompted to name the build, which would actually create and name a whole new text file stored locally within the addon folder. When they want to reactivate the build, just copy/paste the text file as CurrentBuild.txt and overwrite the old one in the game folder.
Friends could do a “share build” button, which would just upload the text file from their addon folder to the other players.

There are many people who had mods though. It’s not like if you start a mod thread you won’t find a lot of resistance. You make it sound like mods are the best thing since sliced bread. At best mods are a mixed bag that cause considerable problems in games.

Also allowing in game mods very often leads to better ways to bot.

Vayne.8563:

There are many people who had mods though. It’s not like if you start a mod thread you won’t find a lot of resistance. You make it sound like mods are the best thing since sliced bread. At best mods are a mixed bag that cause considerable problems in games.

Also allowing in game mods very often leads to better ways to bot.

mods/addons are an outlet for users to create the modular features that should be in the game, but were never added due to resource constraints and deadlines. I think in our case, at the very best, we’d have build templates, boss timers, an LFG tool, and a popper tutorial within 3 months of this game’s launch (if it shipped with addons support). I know we’d have these things because we built all of them into external community websites that worked and saw huge traffic. You can argue botting all day, but bots don’t scare off players nearly as fast as a lack of features/content does. And we know Anet already seems to have the tools and resources available to deal with bots, but they don’t have the resources to deal with the demand of modular features that this game sees when a significant amount of people are actually playing it.

Zodian.6597:

Vayne.8563:

There are many people who had mods though. It’s not like if you start a mod thread you won’t find a lot of resistance. You make it sound like mods are the best thing since sliced bread. At best mods are a mixed bag that cause considerable problems in games.

Also allowing in game mods very often leads to better ways to bot.

mods/addons are an outlet for users to create the modular features that should be in the game, but were never added due to resource constraints and deadlines. I think in our case, at the very best, we’d have build templates, boss timers, an LFG tool, and a popper tutorial within 3 months of this game’s launch (if it shipped with addons support). I know we’d have these things because we built all of them into external community websites that worked and saw huge traffic. You can argue botting all day, but bots don’t scare off players nearly as fast as a lack of features/content does. And we know Anet already seems to have the tools and resources available to deal with bots, but they don’t have the resources to deal with the demand of modular features that this game sees when a significant amount of people are actually playing it.

By the same token in EVERY MMO forums I’ve ever been on, there’s been resistence to and argument about modding. Some people, like you, swear by it. Some people are equally resistant to it.

There are reasons I don’t like mods, having to do with how they almost completely destroyed my enjoyment of some games past. Basically once a mod becomes popular, developers need to take it into account when developing for it, even if I don’t want to use it. That means I’m handicapped by not using specific mods to do specific content.

Keeping control of the game to the devs isn’t always a bad idea. Mind you I have no problem with mods for single player games, but in MMOs, as I’ve already said, they’re a mixed bag at best.

Zodian.6597:

Then I was like “Wait, why are they using a 3rd party software to do this?”

There’s a big difference between real addons and overlays. Resize your browser window, set it to top most and drag it over GW2’s window. That’s an overlay. It’s simple and has no interaction with the client itself. It’s completely separated.

Overwolf is not needed to create overlays, it’s simply a tool. Far more advanced overlays can be created by making actual applications, but you can’t trust random executables, whereas Overwolf is nothing more that a browser/desktop gadget. A real application however has far more possibilities and can interact with the game client, such as reading memory (against the rules), making overlays like DPS meters possible.

You do realize that ArenaNet has a marketing agreement with Overwolf, don’t you? That’s the big reason they went this route.

Zaklex.6308:

You do realize that ArenaNet has a marketing agreement with Overwolf, don’t you? That’s the big reason they went this route.

There’s definitely some kind of marketing agreement, but I don’t see how you can draw the conclusion that that’s why Anet went this way.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have that sort of agreement and there were no mods allowed in Guild Wars 1 either.

It’s possibly they made the agreement, having nothing to do with why they went this way. After all, even if they don’t want mods, they’d still want to market their game, no?

Zaklex.6308:

You do realize that ArenaNet has a marketing agreement with Overwolf, don’t you? That’s the big reason they went this route.

Obviously. Anet just doesn’t gain much from the arrangement. If they wanted to show support for creative app development, they could have just cut out the middle man and had their own webpage or (like I said) addon contest. Tbh no one wants to dl bloatware and run a gadget every time they play. Overlay is really only justifiable if you’re super into WvW and too lazy to hit the map button.

don’t forget we poor mac users are completely shutted off of all this, cause net instead of making real addon chose to support only this over wolf and give all the perk only to win users… i still don’t know why don’t reduce the cost to the mac client seeing all the problem without the perk… still i’ll love the game , and still I’m waiting for at least a boss timer ingame for all poor mac users

Healix.5819:

Zodian.6597:

Then I was like “Wait, why are they using a 3rd party software to do this?”

There’s a big difference between real addons and overlays. Resize your browser window, set it to top most and drag it over GW2’s window. That’s an overlay. It’s simple and has no interaction with the client itself. It’s completely separated.

Overwolf is not needed to create overlays, it’s simply a tool. Far more advanced overlays can be created by making actual applications, but you can’t trust random executables, whereas Overwolf is nothing more that a browser/desktop gadget. A real application however has far more possibilities and can interact with the game client, such as reading memory (against the rules), making overlays like DPS meters possible.

Yeah, but the developer can control what variables in memory are accessible to the application. As well as how the application can interact with those variables.

Zodian.6597:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Perhaps, this would be better suited in the API sub-forum, where those Devs concerned with this subject read and post more often.

Good luck.

I think this post extends the boundaries of that sub-forum. The api subforum is pretty stagnant anyways.

It’s low-traffic. It is not stagnant. There’s a big difference. Devs read the API forums all the time, just look at the shear number of red posts in there.

My questions there are usually answered very promptly.

Zodian.6597:

Supporting addons should be seen as an investment in development time and player retention. Subletting the smaller stuff to addon creators puts the responsibility of answering this inevitable maelstrom of complaints into the hands of people who are actually capable of responding to them quickly (without being held to the standard of AAA development and corporate structure). I don’t think addons will retain all players, but it could keep a huge chunk of them. And people that are willing to modify/customize their gaming experience might just be the ones most likely to spend money on a cash shop that allows for modification and customization of their characters. This is a lucrative player demographic, no matter how big or small it ends up being.

Except not. Those are the kind of demographic that worries more about statistics, numbers, and turning an experience within a virtual game world into a graph. They are not the RPers that care about having a mini pet, a new dye, a new outfit, or anything of that nature. Nope. That demographic you’re speaking of are the kind that would plague the game’s group content with messages of “your damage sucks noob!” as they kick players from dungeons after the first boss thanks to their ‘very epic DPS meter’. Player developed gear score add-ons would be a matter of a months from that, judging others based solely on numbers.

It is basically opening the floodgates to all the evils that come with add-ons. And sorry to say, but those evils far outweigh any benefits that come with it. A.Net knows as much, which is why they’ve left the add-ons locked for so long in their minimalist-UI game.

Siphaed.9235:

Except not. Those are the kind of demographic that worries more about statistics, numbers, and turning an experience within a virtual game world into a graph. They are not the RPers that care about having a mini pet, a new dye, a new outfit, or anything of that nature. Nope. That demographic you’re speaking of are the kind that would plague the game’s group content with messages of “your damage sucks noob!” as they kick players from dungeons after the first boss thanks to their ‘very epic DPS meter’. Player developed gear score add-ons would be a matter of a months from that, judging others based solely on numbers.

It is basically opening the floodgates to all the evils that come with add-ons. And sorry to say, but those evils far outweigh any benefits that come with it. A.Net knows as much, which is why they’ve left the add-ons locked for so long in their minimalist-UI game.

I think comparing the gearscore/dps trackers of WoW and assuming they would work the same way in gw2 is a bit of an exaggeration. Gw2 doesn’t have a gear treadmill, it’s very easy to obtain full exotics in just a few days, and while ascended might take a bit longer; it’s definitely obtainable. The problem with gearscore in WoW was that it was always going up. Gw2 has had 1 gear tier added in the past 3 years. Without a treadmill, gearscore becomes a lot less toxic.

Dps trackers would probably be the bigger problem, because dps is very dependent on character build, and we have no holy trinity; you could argue that it would ice some builds out of the PvE meta. I think the only argument I could make for DPS meter is that it would give a competitive metric to a game mode that has been sort of lacking in progression/endgame value.

And this demographic you’re talking about, the ones that use graphs and spreadsheets and turn the game into a giant pile of statistical analysis; they are already here. We’ve been using crafting efficiency algorithms, trading algorithms for the TP with trend graphs, spreadsheets for build efficiency in sPvP, various graphs to replace the always unpopular gw2 ladderboard, farming rout guides/maps, I could go on forever. The only difference is that these tools have been built into websites you have to alt tab to use. Letting people play the game the way they want to isn’t always a bad thing..

I think the biggest reason is that anet doesn’t want to be bothered making plug in support when there is a third party solution that people will develop for free, and provides a small amount of advertising to other people using said program. It also means that the overlay apps don’t really have to be monitored because they can’t do anything bad. They also need not worry about an update to game breaking apps.

Basically, overwolf is the cheapest solution, and it still manages to get the job done.

I just want to be able to get rid of all the yucky UI that’s cluttering my screen 90% of the time. Disabling the UI is ok, but I want to 1 – still be able to see my skills and minimap, and 2 – want to be able to see chat.

Plus that black border is annoying now that I know it’s there.

overlay app and addon isn’t even the same thing(I presume).

base on their tos. you can make any overlay or have any thing on top of your GW2 window while playing as long as it don’t break tos. So it don’t even have anything to do with overwolf.