PSA: Stop hounding Anet about bots

PSA: Stop hounding Anet about bots

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Posted by: LoreChief.8391

LoreChief.8391

Let me tell you why we need to stop thinking patches are centered around botters, using historical evidence of games long passed.

Ragnarok Online launched in August of 2002, an amazing game with an amazing history, wonderfully charming graphics, the most outstanding example of gaming community ever, and a severe case of bot-fix-itus. You see, with all of the glory of this game, it always had bots, and in a bad way.

Bots would fill up maps, flood the market with botted goods, and were an overall nuiscance to have to co-map with. As expected, the players sent complaints, the players wanted answers. There was a reckoning to be had about bots, and the players were certain it would be fixed if they just kept complaining. But it did no good, for every bot banned, 3 more came in its stead. For every fix found to put a stop to bots, the bots got smarter.

After several years of attempting to fix bots, we were left with a far inferior game than many would have liked to admit.

They attempted to remove all of the good, farmable monsters that most people would use to level – onto entirely random maps. This only stopped the bots from being effective, long enough for their pilots to move them to a new map and begin the cycle again.

They attempted to place dangerously vicious mobs on the same maps as the farmable mobs, thinking that the players would be able to handle them better than the bots. It wasn’t so, and so the players suffered with inconvenient deaths at the hand of the mobs, while the bots teleported around out of harms way.

The developers called for the aid of their playerbase. To join the witch hunt and report all suspected of being bots. If you saw a player in a map for too long, you would question them. They would often reply in snarky comments for being accused, even those who were innocent – before long, everyone was reporting each other, suspecting themselves to be bots.

The GM’s themselves began to play invisibly in the heavily botted areas, banning people who had bot-like-behavior. Over time, the bots adapted to questions, began holding conversations like normal players (more like an AIM sexchat bot in spirit though – nothing in depth). Their movements began to look more natural, and before long they were hard to distinguish from the players themselves.

This is a cautionary tale. When players demand increased attention to botting, just so they can see anti-bot measures more visible than what the developers would want, they are hurting the game. If ANet has a plan to get rid of bots, which I’m sure they do – then we will find out about it when we stop seeing the bots. We won’t know how they’re doing it, but it will happen and that should be good enough.

The bots we see in game are in larval form still – easy to detect, obvious in their attempts to circumvent ToS. They run around naked, in patterns, doing the same thing repeatedly – and they don’t defend themselves. We should be thankful that right now they are so easy to spot. What should happen ideally is that the very root of their ability to freely bot should be discovered, thwarting all future attempts at botting.

However, by negatively responding to every patch, every change, every control placed on the game – with things like “this only helps the bots and hurts the players”, or “this isn’t doing enough to stop bots” – you’re asking for a police-state mentality to enforce the rules of the game. Let them do their work, let them figure it out – you just keep reporting the gold sellers and bots and don’t worry about if they are still there the next day or not.

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Posted by: Fozzik.1742

Fozzik.1742

Great post, and a very interesting perspective to consider.

It really is an arms race in a way…playing one-up with people who’s livelihood depends on successful botting probably will never be an effective remedy.

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Posted by: kKagari.6804

kKagari.6804

Sounds like we’ve already reached the last phase of your story. Forum morale doesn’t seem very high at the moment.

“We just don’t want players to grind in GW2” – C. Johanson
“it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun, rather than having fun”
Guild missions say otherwise.

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Posted by: FanZeroEx.7240

FanZeroEx.7240

“…you’re asking for a police-state mentality to enforce the rules…” This is happening already…

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Posted by: Morrigan.2809

Morrigan.2809

Thank you Op that is a very insightful post.
I have actually seen a decrease of gold-sellers in just tha last couple of days ( maybe I just blocked them all ) and I only ever saw one bot- I was so fascinated that I followed it around for about 10 min

Gunnar’s Hold

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Posted by: Tanith.5264

Tanith.5264

Good post, and good points.

This is why it occurred to me that it might behoove Anet to post a general “How to recognize a bot” guide here someplace. I know the more respectable fansites already have these up. Nonsensical names, repetitive behavior, the absence of guild affiliation, and so on. Between what they already know and the information we’ve been providing in our reports, I’m sure they could compile a good guide to educate us all and protect innocent players.

Just a thought.

:)

Tanith Fencewalker, Tanni Mindbender, Thyra Wrathbringer, Lovecraft Thrall
Guardians of the Vault [GotV] and Guíld of Dívíne Soldíers [GoDS]
Gate of Madness server

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Posted by: CaveSalamander.9150

CaveSalamander.9150

People are asking for more measures because they don’t see an obvious change- like 90% of bots instantly gone.. Can’t blame them, it must be frustrating to see the same bot still there after a week even when 500 others were succesfully found and banned.

Perhaps I’ve been lucky or just running around too low-level zones but I’ve never seen bots other than gold sellers in chat and mail.

My quest is to find the dorito.

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Posted by: LoreChief.8391

LoreChief.8391

@FanZeroEx: Enforcing game rules is one thing. What we’re doing now is reporting and waiting for bans. To be honest, the bots have actually been slightly useful in helping determine ways the game can be exploited, such as Dolyak escort farming/botting, grub-drop botting, etc.

However, using RO as an example of militaristic anti-bot procedures, you would see the ultimate dystopia of a wonderful game turned on it’s head when the developers began to concentrate too much of their forces on bot eradication instead of content development. It really isn’t as bad as I’ve seen it just yet.

@CaveSalamander: Do you remember the first two weeks when ANet banned all the karma exploiters? Everyone, players who abused, players who knew someone who abused, players who didn’t have anything to do with it – were up in arms with pitchforks and torches, prepared to “shut down the evil greedy Anet that wanted to take peoples $60 and then ban them for almost nothing at all!” You too should then be able to understand why they don’t ham-handedly twitch-ban every single person reported of botting. The bots being banned are not even a question to be honest – it’s not NOT going to happen. Players just need to be more patient when they see someone botting for days after being reported. Players need to make sure other players also report (who knows, maybe you were the only one to see it and they won’t just go off one report?). Mostly though, players just need to give it time, and realize that a bot won’t do exponentially more damage just because it’s doofin around for an extra week or so.

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Posted by: Swag.4923

Swag.4923

Running through Gendarran Fields for an hour or two each night, I typically see 10-16 bots, including 4 that I’ve been reporting constantly for three weeks now. It’s a pretty even mix between bots that teleport around, bots that run set paths, and the occasional 1-spam macroer.

Because of the rampant botting problem, I’ve been discouraged from trying to sell any of the crafting drops I’ve gotten—knowing that the value has completely tanked due to the influx of botted drops. While this may be great for crafters skilling up, it’s horrible for anyone farming for gold or attempting to turn a profit from their crafting.

Strange as it may seem, I find my MMO endgame enjoyment not in bots or dungeon grinds, but in the economy and generating wealth. However, here in GW2 I just can’t compete with the bots. I knew before launch that it would be a big problem, but honestly I expected ANet to be much more proactive, or to at least investigate bot reports and not be so stingy with the banhamer.

Instead of banning people for botting/macroing at the centaur bridge in Kessex, they just made the content more difficult (as the OP described), hoping that it would chase the bots away. But you know what? All that’s gonna hapkitten the bots will move somewhere else.

(edited by Swag.4923)

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Posted by: Hawken.7932

Hawken.7932

It’s funny, it really must vary between servers — maybe they cluster in low population servers to avoid being reported? On our server, I have seen then a total of three times since pre-launch.

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Posted by: Maximus.6945

Maximus.6945

There is one simple solution to boting – open world PvP.
Give it, and i gather my whole guild to terminate them…

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Posted by: Chessrook.8643

Chessrook.8643

The way I see it, if the Mods told us how they were working on stopping the bots, then the bot-makers would get a headstart in figuring out how to get around it.

You don’t go on public TV saying exactly how you plan to catch a thief two days before the plan is enacted. The thief watches TV too, after all.

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Posted by: WasAGuest.4973

WasAGuest.4973

Bots are like roaches on my server. Pretty sure that doesn’t need more explaining.

Every zone I have gone into in the passed few days, there’s always at least one spot per zone a group of them sit and farm events or mobs. There’s been a few areas where the bots out numbered the players I saw. I’m sure there were more players around; but I saw more bots than players.

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Posted by: deracs.1762

deracs.1762

I understand the original posters view but agree and disagree. If they change the game itself to deal with bots (adding mobs etc as he posted) then yes I agree and it is a bad way to deal with botting. The issue of bots is a matter of resource and will power to be dealt with.

Here is an easy example of right and wrong ways of dealing with bot type issues. Gold spammers sitting in a city spamming away. Aion implemented things like “could not talk in general chat below level 10”, or “can only talk in chat once every 10 seconds” Those are what I consider wrong ways of dealing as they change the game and punish the population overall

Take the same gold sellers, they start their spamming crap. Player sees the spam, right clicks the player to report gold spamming. As it is now nothing happens. Now imagine that when a player reports the spam, the actual spam goes immedietly to a live GM/Anet employee. This person sees the spam and IMMEDIETLY closes the account. How long before having every account closed within 5 minutes of gold spamming do you think it would be before it stops? Not long. All it takes is resource and willpower

For the argument that they are stolen accounts, it does not matter. It actually works in favor of the stolen account. Anyway you look at it, if your account is stolen you have to CALL Anet and go through the process of getting it back. A quick ban email would simply let you know your account has been stolen

Action against the gold spammers and not the game and the spamming could be stopped in short time

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Posted by: kKagari.6804

kKagari.6804

There is one simple solution to boting – open world PvP.
Give it, and i gather my whole guild to terminate them…

Some gamer has discovered a trick where you drop Fireworks in front of them, and their script will cause them to pick it up, and die whilst firing fireworks continuously.

“We just don’t want players to grind in GW2” – C. Johanson
“it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun, rather than having fun”
Guild missions say otherwise.

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Posted by: tom.7468

tom.7468

just report them and move on but careful not to report legits it could get you banned.

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Posted by: Fletch.3572

Fletch.3572

Don’t patch it for bots, hire a couple people to log into the game as GMs and disconnect the OBVIOUS bot trains, which would instantly suspend the account and whatnot, and have them immediately at the top of the list for review for perma bans.

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Posted by: Painking.4703

Painking.4703

Another story which is somewhat related is when Runescape tried to get rid of scamming, which was running absolutely rampant back in ’06. They had to add increasingly draconic rules until it finally culminated with them just straight up disabling PvP.

They had since re-instated it but their playerbase never really recovered after that.

All we can do is report bots and see what Anet plans to do. How this situation is handled is mostly out of power and we just gotta hope that Anet knows what they’re doing.

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Posted by: CaveSalamander.9150

CaveSalamander.9150

@CaveSalamander: Do you remember the first two weeks when ANet banned all the karma exploiters? Everyone, players who abused, players who knew someone who abused, players who didn’t have anything to do with it – were up in arms with pitchforks and torches, prepared to “shut down the evil greedy Anet that wanted to take peoples $60 and then ban them for almost nothing at all!” You too should then be able to understand why they don’t ham-handedly twitch-ban every single person reported of botting. The bots being banned are not even a question to be honest – it’s not NOT going to happen. Players just need to be more patient when they see someone botting for days after being reported. Players need to make sure other players also report (who knows, maybe you were the only one to see it and they won’t just go off one report?). Mostly though, players just need to give it time, and realize that a bot won’t do exponentially more damage just because it’s doofin around for an extra week or so.

Propably should’ve made my point clearer as you’ve got it right on- Anet says they’ve already banned over 1600 bots so clearly they’re doing something to combat them- the people complaining are not acnowledging this fact because they may not have seen any change themselves. It’s a shame on their part.
(also yes, I remember the first weeks, it’s a shame I didn’t get any )

My quest is to find the dorito.

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Posted by: beren.6048

beren.6048

Going easy on botters because of complains that destroys the game. Anyway GW is so easy that I don’t understand why anybody would want to bot. Everything is so balanced that equipment or level doesn’t really make a difference in PVP and the thats why most people bot, to be the superman in PVP.

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Posted by: RoninsBack.4023

RoninsBack.4023

Going easy on botters because of complains that destroys the game. Anyway GW is so easy that I don’t understand why anybody would want to bot. Everything is so balanced that equipment or level doesn’t really make a difference in PVP and the thats why most people bot, to be the superman in PVP.

Most people want to bot to make money.

Real life money.

Players will use bots to assist their gameplay no denying that. That’s not the real problem.

You know what RMT is right?

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Posted by: VendettaDFA.9368

VendettaDFA.9368

There is one simple solution to boting – open world PvP.
Give it, and i gather my whole guild to terminate them…

Nope … open world PvP is not going to ever solve botting. All it would do is wreck the social aspect of a PvE environment as a bunch of bad attitudes would seek to ruin other players enjoyment of the game. Ask for open PvP servers if you want, but don’t try to use this issue as a thinly veiled excuse for what you are really after.

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Posted by: Maximus.6945

Maximus.6945

@VendettaDFA:
Bots could even drop loot after they’re killed, everything that was farmed.
It would be called PvB(Player vs Bot). Speciall feature, unique to GW2…
How that can be a bad idea?

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Posted by: StormcrowX.9236

StormcrowX.9236

I’d like to know that my reporting is actually doing something though, that hitting that report button is actually sending data to someone at Anet who will review the game log and hand out bans, not a useless perfunctory feature like it was in GW1…

you know i found that the only way to get bots banned in GW (and a response from a real, live staff member) was to file a ticket on the support website..troublesome, but it worked to a certain extent.. i reported dozens of JQ bots. some were banned, some werent. btw i still dont know if ingame report actually does anything at all..

You are not one of their “most dedicated players”. Don’t worry, neither am I apparently.
-NaughtyProwler.8653

(edited by StormcrowX.9236)

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Posted by: RoninsBack.4023

RoninsBack.4023

@VendettaDFA:
Bots could even drop loot after they’re killed, everything that was farmed.
It would be called PvB(Player vs Bot). Speciall feature, unique to GW2…
How that can be a bad idea?

Because innocent people will get caught in the crossfire.

There’s already people that pull Champions or other such menaces into packs of what they think are bots.

Chances are not everyone you get will be a bot and you can never guarantee it.

If you’re on the receiving end of MPK as an innocent it’s not fun and if you’re on the receiving end of unwarranted death in a PvE(P) (as there is in EVE) enviroment it’s equally bad. Fact is even EVE has its safe areas.

If you can show us a way to categorically round up everyone that is a bot and only them without having any collateral damage, I’ll gladly come on that server with you and become death, destroyer of worlds.

There’ll always be collateral damage and it’s unfair on the innocent people that get affected.

The omlettes/eggs quote won’t wash here. It’d need to be 100% bots.

You’d also be creating the perfect griefing environment.

I don’t think the original suggestion was a serious one anyway, more of an extreme opinion to make a point.

And it’s a very fair point to make.

Bots ruin the PvE at the moment. The problem’s getting worse.

For GW2 right now the only way I can see is a presence in the game. It really isn’t hard to organize. Well, it shouldn’t be hard.

That visual presence will make lots of people happy. It kills lots of birds with one stone.

Do eet ANet. You know you want to!

(edited by RoninsBack.4023)

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Posted by: Maximus.6945

Maximus.6945

@VendettaDFA:
Bots could even drop loot after they’re killed, everything that was farmed.
It would be called PvB(Player vs Bot). Speciall feature, unique to GW2…
How that can be a bad idea?

Because innocent people will get caught in the crossfire.

There’s already people that pull Champions or other such menaces into packs of what they think are bots.

Chances are not everyone you get will be a bot and you can never guarantee it.

If you’re on the receiving end of MPK as an innocent it’s not fun and if you’re on the receiving end of unwarranted death in a PvE(P) (as there is in EVE) enviroment it’s equally bad. Fact is even EVE has its safe areas.

If you can show us a way to categorically round up everyone that is a bot and only them without having any collateral damage, I’ll gladly come on that server with you and become death, destroyer of worlds.

There’ll always be collateral damage and it’s unfair on the innocent people that get affected.

The omlettes/eggs quote won’t wash here. It’d need to be 100% bots.

You’d also be creating the perfect griefing environment.

I don’t think the original suggestion was a serious one anyway, more of an extreme opinion to make a point.

And it’s a very fair point to make.

Bots ruin the PvE at the moment. The problem’s getting worse.

For GW2 right now the only way I can see is a presence in the game. It really isn’t hard to organize. Well, it shouldn’t be hard.

That visual presence will make lots of people happy. It kills lots of birds with one stone.

Do eet ANet. You know you want to!

I was just being silly. I’m aware that open PvP have no place in cooperative world of GW2…

But you need to admit that bots wouldn’t survive a day on PvP server…

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Posted by: Edge.4180

Edge.4180

Running through Gendarran Fields for an hour or two each night, I typically see 10-16 bots, including 4 that I’ve been reporting constantly for three weeks now. It’s a pretty even mix between bots that teleport around, bots that run set paths, and the occasional 1-spam macroer.

I have to wonder how many times someone like you has erroneously reported someone like me. Sometimes I’d farm for crafting materials (a lot of times, actually.. it can take quite a while) and after a while of doing that solo you can get tired of putting forth your A-game performance for nothing, and instead just go through the motions while farming.. cycling through a particular path and spamming the 1 key with one hand while reading a book with the other. Sure, I’m at my keyboard, actively controlling my character, with one eye on the screen.. but your last two descriptions easily fit me at times, and I am clearly not botting.

The problem is too many people expect Arenanet to invest all this time into hunting down bots, but the players themselves are often only willing to spend two seconds (if that) deciding if they’re looking at a bot or a player before tossing another questionable report onto an already enormous pile. In my opinion, that kind of reckless behavior isn’t helping the game either. It certainly isn’t helping the speed at which real support issues are being addressed.

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Posted by: StormcrowX.9236

StormcrowX.9236

We need the scythe of Dhuum.

You are not one of their “most dedicated players”. Don’t worry, neither am I apparently.
-NaughtyProwler.8653

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Posted by: RoninsBack.4023

RoninsBack.4023

@VendettaDFA:
Bots could even drop loot after they’re killed, everything that was farmed.
It would be called PvB(Player vs Bot). Speciall feature, unique to GW2…
How that can be a bad idea?

Because innocent people will get caught in the crossfire.

There’s already people that pull Champions or other such menaces into packs of what they think are bots.

Chances are not everyone you get will be a bot and you can never guarantee it.

If you’re on the receiving end of MPK as an innocent it’s not fun and if you’re on the receiving end of unwarranted death in a PvE(P) (as there is in EVE) enviroment it’s equally bad. Fact is even EVE has its safe areas.

If you can show us a way to categorically round up everyone that is a bot and only them without having any collateral damage, I’ll gladly come on that server with you and become death, destroyer of worlds.

There’ll always be collateral damage and it’s unfair on the innocent people that get affected.

The omlettes/eggs quote won’t wash here. It’d need to be 100% bots.

You’d also be creating the perfect griefing environment.

I don’t think the original suggestion was a serious one anyway, more of an extreme opinion to make a point.

And it’s a very fair point to make.

Bots ruin the PvE at the moment. The problem’s getting worse.

For GW2 right now the only way I can see is a presence in the game. It really isn’t hard to organize. Well, it shouldn’t be hard.

That visual presence will make lots of people happy. It kills lots of birds with one stone.

Do eet ANet. You know you want to!

I was just being silly. I’m aware that open PvP have no place in cooperative world of GW2…

But you need to admit that bots wouldn’t survive a day on PvP server…

Yeah I did say you weren’t being serious just a moment ago.

I don’t think the original suggestion was a serious one anyway, more of an extreme opinion to make a point.

Yeah, we’d destroy them but you’d also run the risk of destroying people who are new and impressionable and you could ruin their gaming experience. That’s my point.

Bots will never go in an environment where they will not thrive. It’s just bad business practice. They’ll only ever proliferate where it’s profitable and PvE will always have to exist.

As I said, GM, god-mode, whatever.

I’d really like to know if ANet go in their own game you know.

Hey ANet. Do you log into your own game other than test servers? Do you have the ability to do so?

Come and have a look guys, it’s a bit of a mess in here. Thanks a lot.

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Posted by: VendettaDFA.9368

VendettaDFA.9368

@VendettaDFA:
Bots could even drop loot after they’re killed, everything that was farmed.
It would be called PvB(Player vs Bot). Speciall feature, unique to GW2…
How that can be a bad idea?

Well you just changed your idea from PvP to PvB which is entirely different. It also brings us back to the same issue of identifying bot’s. The OP is pointing out the downside of those kind of measures and I tend to agree with the majority of his thread. Personally many of the measures taken so far have impacted actual players more than bots. There should be areas worth farming in any game. A regular player has a need to generate a reasonable amount of coin and mats for gear, crafting. buffs etc… Unfortunately bots dont get bored in an area and will ceaselessly farm it. I report goldsellers and bot activity, but to be blunt, having all avenues of decent resources taken away will impact my personal enjoyment of the game far more than any bot ever will. Report the activity and let ANET do the research and deal with the cause and effect here. The bots and goldsellers are the effect. The cause is the player who is unwilling to play an honest game and does business with goldsellers. Remove the demand by banning the buyer through tracing in-game mail transfers involving known goldseller accounts that are or will soon be banned and then you have a decent handle on the issue.

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Posted by: Craven.5468

Craven.5468

In one day a single person could:
log into every server for 30 minutes
ask every map chat if they see any bots
verify they are bots visually (it is obvious)
drop the hammer on every one.

If this happened each day, the results would be impressive.

A single employee. Everything else, is just an excuse.

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Posted by: RoninsBack.4023

RoninsBack.4023

I’d really like to know if ANet go in their own game you know.

Hey ANet. Do you log into your own game other than test servers? Do you have the ability to do so?

Come and have a look guys, it’s a bit of a mess in here. Thanks a lot.

I just had a think about this and bugged DEs, SPs, whatever else differ from server to server.

To examine or determine the nature of the bug, they’d have to log into the server would they not?

Or can it be debugged without having to login to the game? Does anyone know the answer to that?

Otherwise, they are logging into their game to debug and aren’t even looking at bots. We’re bringing more than enough attention to it, it’s the hottest forum topic by far.

That’d just be a really bizarre thing to do, not even have a look. As if they did look you’d be really annoyed with that you saw as a dev. Surely!?

Anyone know?

(edited by RoninsBack.4023)

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Posted by: Gehenna.3625

Gehenna.3625

In one day a single person could:
log into every server for 30 minutes
ask every map chat if they see any bots
verify they are bots visually (it is obvious)
drop the hammer on every one.

If this happened each day, the results would be impressive.

A single employee. Everything else, is just an excuse.

A very simplistic view and wrong. I could give arguments but I am thinking you wouldn’t be open to them anyways.

So I will keep it simple: It’s not that simple. Everything else is just fantasy land.

It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.

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Posted by: Craven.5468

Craven.5468

In one day a single person could:
log into every server for 30 minutes
ask every map chat if they see any bots
verify they are bots visually (it is obvious)
drop the hammer on every one.

If this happened each day, the results would be impressive.

A single employee. Everything else, is just an excuse.

A very simplistic view and wrong. I could give arguments but I am thinking you wouldn’t be open to them anyways.

So I will keep it simple: It’s not that simple. Everything else is just fantasy land.

It is that simple. I personally, have performed this task in the past. If a direct interface does not exist in game to perform the kick and password reset on the account, then it could be handled via a hand-off or by using the external tools or database (I had to write SQL to perform account reset or IP ban after kick).

There is no advanced fancy magic to this. You observe/test a bot and once proven you nail them. Long term detection algorithms can be developed alongside the ban hammer operations.

Stop making it sound more complicated than it is.

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Posted by: helladoom.4317

helladoom.4317

verify they are bots visually (it is obvious)

I does not take much to make it less obvious to the point where false positives become a possibility: better char names, don’t cluster, don’t stand in one place for long. Though it might be that those would require more human intervention than the bot houses can afford.

The one thing that is unmistakably obvious is gold spammers, but i understand Anet is rather slow in responding to reports on those.

A partial solution against botting might be to introduce a small pay-as-you play fee, but that seems to be against Anet’s free-to-play philosophy.

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Posted by: mulch.2586

mulch.2586

First and foremost is the integrity of the game’s system. There have been games that didn’t have bot problems. Right now there’s nothing in place that requires you to log in with the actual client. On the coding side, it’s too easy.

There’s also the motivation for botting — RMT. ANet has direct control over gems-to-gold. The exchange rate is high enough that there’s lots and lots of room for gold sellers to under-cut ANet’s prices. They’ve also set some desirable things in-game that cost a lot of gold, such as Order and Cultural gear.

Further, I’ve yet to see anyone anywhere who’s been banned or disciplined for buying gold.

These are the weak points. Not that DE’s are farmable or anything like that.

Very much the worst way to stop bots is by observing them in-game and trying to report. The most relevant, easiest access data are server-side. I’m someone with a career that involved developing methods of telling one type of human from another type, based on their data. Telling a human from a machine is always easy, when you look at the quantifiable data, i.e. the data stream from client to server in this case. I would assign such a task to at most a MS-level student.

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Posted by: Aramanth.1546

Aramanth.1546

When the bots are able to create a fort using gun turrets and 15 rangers circling the area, killing everything in sight, you know you have problems. The reason Ragnarok fell wasn’t because the developers focused too much on bots, it was the bots themselves. They are a disease. They ruin the economy, lag down the lesser players in areas, and in general annoy us with their pointless spamming. They undermine us by teleport hacking and insulting us by reviving themselves with another character on their own account, ruining any chance of us luring mobs on top of them. Some of my favorite games were destroyed by bots. One in particular had an economy so messed up the equivalent of a level 80 masterwork item would cost you 150 gold. The community being elitist didn’t help either, and in combination the game just collapsed. People are already pretty arrogant in this game, who knows how long it’ll be before prices are so high you’ll have to use gems to buy ingame gear. I say make it illegal to use these programs and locate/arrest the botters. If 4chan can get every piece of personal information on you based on one post on their hate-filled boards, then we should be able to locate these cheating kittens via their hundreds of accounts.

Here’s an idea that might give players an incentive to report bots- every account they report (not the bot, but the account the bots are on) and is successfully dealt with the players kittenported it get one silver coin. 15 bots running around, that’s 15 silver just for right clicking some program’s name. And I say successful reports, meaning after the account’s been looked into and banned, to keep people from reporting their friends for free money.

(edited by Aramanth.1546)

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Posted by: mulch.2586

mulch.2586

I think relevant also is NCSoft’s approach to botting.

I played Lineage-2, one of their flagship-products. At one point I came to learn that I was the only person in my clan who was still using the official client to play the game.

Botting was very much part of that game (it took about 2700 game-play hours to get to max level on your main class, and about that much again for your sub-class). Similarly when I played CoH at its launch, if it takes 1000 mob kills to go from level 11 to 12, there’s a true push for automation.

As a company they have a tacit acceptance of botting and RMT. NCSoft isn’t the same as ANet, but they are the parent.

As George Bush said, the tree don’t fall far from its nuts.

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Posted by: Sunju.8310

Sunju.8310

“A partial solution against botting might be to introduce a small pay-as-you play fee, but that seems to be against Anet’s free-to-play philosophy.”

Nope. That would just mean the gold farmers have to hack our now Pay-Per-Month accounts rather than our free ones. It’s only the players that suffer in your idea.

“A favourite war hero of mine got his tongue shot out.”
“How’d that happen?”
“He doesn’t talk about it.” – Stephen Fry

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Posted by: dybryd.1358

dybryd.1358

Forum morale doesn’t seem very high at the moment.

lol, I’ve never seen a MMO forum that wasn’t at least this grumpy (or an RPG forum in general for that matter – poor Bioware!)

I visit the forums for a fix when I’m stuck at work and can’t play whatever game I’m currently obsessing over, but I’ve come to understand over the years that forums are by and large the realm of the disaffected: “Happiness writes white.”

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Posted by: mulch.2586

mulch.2586

Typically farmers don’t pay for the game, and use scammed credit cards or spoofed timecard-codes for subscriptions. So it doesn’t particularly deter the crooks, just your legit customers.

At this point, there’s no possible way ANet could require a subscription, no matter what. it was such a central selling point to GW1 and marketing GW2.

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Posted by: Craven.5468

Craven.5468

Typically farmers don’t pay for the game, and use scammed credit cards or spoofed timecard-codes for subscriptions. So it doesn’t particularly deter the crooks, just your legit customers.

At this point, there’s no possible way ANet could require a subscription, no matter what. it was such a central selling point to GW1 and marketing GW2.

Also just simply stolen accounts; knowledge from spyware/keylogers and other account/password storage systems such as other games and forums.

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Posted by: Narkosys.5173

Narkosys.5173

My grace period ended with Anet. They had time to fix this and get ready for it and the required security. They chose not to and they must deal with us and the bottom feeders (gold sellers). They said it wouldnt be released until it was ready – clearly it wasnt.

Now they have to deal with the players being upset because their lack of forethought is infringing on our enjoyment.
Or flip the coin
How much for me to legit bot from Anet? How many Gems to Purchase a “Anet” approved bot so that I can run one while I work?
I have no issue with that at all either.

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Posted by: Swag.4923

Swag.4923

Running through Gendarran Fields for an hour or two each night, I typically see 10-16 bots, including 4 that I’ve been reporting constantly for three weeks now. It’s a pretty even mix between bots that teleport around, bots that run set paths, and the occasional 1-spam macroer.

I have to wonder how many times someone like you has erroneously reported someone like me. Sometimes I’d farm for crafting materials (a lot of times, actually.. it can take quite a while) and after a while of doing that solo you can get tired of putting forth your A-game performance for nothing, and instead just go through the motions while farming.. cycling through a particular path and spamming the 1 key with one hand while reading a book with the other. Sure, I’m at my keyboard, actively controlling my character, with one eye on the screen.. but your last two descriptions easily fit me at times, and I am clearly not botting.

Tele-bots: Port around from mob to mob. Blatantly obvious. The sad part is how many people make it all the way to 80 doing this. If you want to see one, go to Queensdale and check out the river just south of Divinity’s Reach with the level 2-4 skale. There’s always one or two farming there.

Path bots: They run a set path and whenever a target gets within tab-target range, run to the mob. When it dies, they run back to the spot where they first left their path and continue on said path. They are easy to spot because they don’t strafe and all their turns are instant and perfect. Also, some movement-based attacks (like Whirlwind Attack) always fire in the wrong direction (a mistake a player would rarely make).

1-spam bots: They stand in one location spamming a single attack and waiting for mobs to come to them. This was the primary method of botting at the Kessex centaur bridge and the Gendarran Fields skelk cave. This is generally just simple macroing that anyone can do with their keyboards/mice these days.

That’s how I spot botters and those are the only ones I report. Have I been wrong about path bots before? Maybe, but it’s not like ANet is banning botters, so no harm done.

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Posted by: Swag.4923

Swag.4923

In one day a single person could:
log into every server for 30 minutes
ask every map chat if they see any bots
verify they are bots visually (it is obvious)
drop the hammer on every one.

If this happened each day, the results would be impressive.

A single employee. Everything else, is just an excuse.

I don’t understand why they can’t just have one person who does nothing but check bot reports all day. Give them a simple interface where the report pops up, they click to teleport to the suspected bot’s location, check it out and ban them. Obviously some would require a bit of investigation, but if someone is porting from mob to mob, their kitten should be banned instantly.

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Posted by: Swag.4923

Swag.4923

Also, cant ANet just generate some reports to check for red flags? Oh, Player_A has killed 700,000 grubs and almost nothing else? Maybe we should look in to that. Player_B has been killing mobs non-stop since servers came up from last week’s patch? He’s probably just hardcore. Player_C has 80,000 Vials of Weak Blood listed on the BLTC? Guess he just loves to farm.

Seriously. At this point I don’t even care if it’s bull kitten, but they need to at least give the impression that they give a kitten about their players and the game economy.

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Posted by: GranoblasticMan.2514

GranoblasticMan.2514

Not bothering to read the whole thread, but I don’t think anyone who’s thought this through is asking for an arms race. That’s kitten and will never work against bots.

We’re asking for GMs. Real human beings who can respond to bot reports and do something about them.

But the arms race idea is cheaper, so in the end, that’s going to be ANet’s route, if they decide to take bots seriously at all.

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Posted by: GranoblasticMan.2514

GranoblasticMan.2514

In one day a single person could:
log into every server for 30 minutes
ask every map chat if they see any bots
verify they are bots visually (it is obvious)
drop the hammer on every one.

If this happened each day, the results would be impressive.

A single employee. Everything else, is just an excuse.

A very simplistic view and wrong. I could give arguments but I am thinking you wouldn’t be open to them anyways.

So I will keep it simple: It’s not that simple. Everything else is just fantasy land.

It is that simple. I personally, have performed this task in the past. If a direct interface does not exist in game to perform the kick and password reset on the account, then it could be handled via a hand-off or by using the external tools or database (I had to write SQL to perform account reset or IP ban after kick).

There is no advanced fancy magic to this. You observe/test a bot and once proven you nail them. Long term detection algorithms can be developed alongside the ban hammer operations.

Stop making it sound more complicated than it is.

Off-topic, but I never understood the dev-apologists with no programming experience who always assume “If it’s not being done, it’s because it’s REALLY SUPER HARD to do!”

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Posted by: Airala.8629

Airala.8629

Here’s the thing that frustrates me about the “Stop the bots!!!” posts, and comments like Swag made just above me…

First, ANet has posted here on the forums repeatedly that they are working on the issue. This makes my mind boggle a bit when I see someone make a comment like Swag did… “they need to at least give the impression that they give a kitten about their players and the game economy.”

My thought when someone says something like that is always the same – “seriously? Do you think they’re just sitting there laughing at us and singing ‘go bot go!’ or something?”

I mean…really? Are you under the impression that ANet is just ignoring the issue for poops and giggles? That they’re leaving the bots in-game for their amusement? That they just want to torture us? Are you a conspiracy theorist who is convinced that the multitude of “we’re working on this” posts are just made for laughs?

If there was a SIMPLE solution to the issue, do you not think it would have been implemented at launch? This isn’t ANet’s first rodeo… you can’t really believe that they had no clue bots would show up – so why do you think they haven’t just wiped them out if it’s so simple to do?

Why?

Because. It’s. Not.

Anyone who has ever played an MMO for any length of time knows what a bot is… because every MMO ever created has been plagued with them. If there’s profit to be made, there are bots. It’s inevitable. Now given the sheer brilliance of so many developers who manage to create complex interactive systems that amaze and impress us… doesn’t it strike you that if ridding a game of bots was an easy undertaking… they’d have done it? Bots hurt them and their bottom line a thousand times more than they hurt us, the players… it is in a company’s best interest to eliminate bots. So if they haven’t wiped them out, there’s a reason – and the reason is, because it’s not as simple as you think it is.

The OP is 100% correct that companies end up forced into a course of action that really only punishes legitimate players… because no matter what they do, some savvy bot designer is going to find a way around it. Botters are motivated by greed, and MMO botting is highly lucrative. It’s much like the government trying to combat organize crime or drug cartels – if there was an easy solution, wouldn’t they have implemented it decades ago?

While a mass banning may be very satisfying emotionally for the players, it’s not always in the best interest of the company to take such a step. Sometimes the smartest thing you can do is feed the botters more rope to hang themselves with. Let them show you how they’re exploiting your game… let them show you your weaknesses. Then quietly shore up your defenses before dropping a nuke on them.

It’s actually a little insane to assume a developer like ANet is going to simply ignore the problem or do nothing about it. “We’re working on the issue” is the only answer they SHOULD be giving any of us. And frustrating as it may be, it’s really the only answer we’re entitled to.

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Posted by: Airala.8629

Airala.8629

Off-topic, but I never understood the dev-apologists with no programming experience who always assume “If it’s not being done, it’s because it’s REALLY SUPER HARD to do!”

No, banning an individual bot, or a group, one-by-one, is very easy.

So is picking up the individual drug dealers on the corner.

That doesn’t always mean it’s the best course of action… and can in fact hinder a larger operation severely.

Again – if just sending a GM out to observe & ban would help their efforts, don’t you think they’d be doing exactly that?

Btw – not everyone who disagrees with you is a “dev-apologist with no programming experience.” Some of us are just capable of seeing a much larger picture and understanding that things don’t always look the same when viewed from the dev seat as they do when viewed from the player seat.