Guild Wars 2

We have an interesting discussion going on on the Thieves forum currently about Singet of Shadows a passive singet that grants us 25% movement speed increase.

It is my understanding that many professions feature similar such increases and I want to take a moment to highlight why this is poor design.

1. Passive speed increases are addicting – After a while playing without such an increase feels slow and sluggish. You feel compelled to use it even if it doesn’t suit your build or character just because you’ve gotten so used to it.

2. It forces us into an Arms race – When fighting someone else with a passive speed increase not having one puts you at a severe disadvantage, especially as a melee character. Suddenly 125% speed has become the deacto standard and you are gimped with out it.

3. It renders many boons and effects redundant – At 25% speed, Swiftness is a rather minor 8% increase….barely noticeable in many situations. This makes the whole boon feel rather pointless and unnecessary which affects multiple traits and abilities.

4. It takes up a limited utility slot – With only 3 utility slots available using one for a passive speed increase further limits the already fairly limited combat depth and utility. Having deep and interesting combat requires a certain number of active abilities to be used and a passive speed increase just isn’t that.

Now people may rightfully point out that you have a choice to ignore such a singet, and that may be true. But it’s a bad kind of choice where you feel gimped and slow when running without it while it not really adding depth to the game-play.

Tl;DR: Situational speed increases like Swiftness are ok. Even traits that allow faster movement speeds are. But permanent, passive speed singets are not. They present a bad form of choice while rendering many other boons and traits moot.

Emm, but you can activate signets and you will get another effect of this skill. Actually, you have 2 skills for the price of one and there is no disadvantage. And you can boost this effect with some traits even more

traveling faster feels mandatory, i agree

i personally wish there were no way to do so with class abilities or traits, only consumable buffs via professions/RNG drops/cash shop

I’m betting if you look at the professions, passive speed increases are on the classes used mostly for Scouting in WvW/PvP

Gotta say, I feel faster WITHOUT my Signet of Shadows on. When you’re always running 125%, evading for swiftness (acrobatic trait) only gives you an 8% increase, and it therefore feels slow.

On the other hand, with no signet, rolling shoots my speed up by 33%, and I feel like a rocket ship. When I haven’t got endurance, I use either Heartseeker spam or Infiltrator’s Arrow to keep moving quickly, and with my initiative regen traits I always have either endurance or initiative.

Between the two, Signet of Shadows feels lazier, easier, and slower. Using swiftness + travel skills instead not only ups my combat efficiency (because I haven’t got a utility slot tied down), but it keeps me more alert and less prone to mindless “auto-piloting”.

If you get addicted to a passive speedbuff skill, you’re just hurting yourself really. I used to be a total addict, and I feel so much faster now that I’ve broke the habit. I only use SoS for Jump Puzzles these days.

But necromancer and elementalist get it too, which just feels weird. It seems like a ranger/thief thing. Instead of giving casters some better form of defense they just said ‘eh we’ll give them the speed thing too and call it a day’. Just seems kind of lazy, and my main is a necromancer too. Don’t get me wrong I happily use it it just doesnt really fit the theme of the class.

What i don’t like so much is being hit by anything it slows you down into combat mode. Especially in WvW if 5 people chase you and one hits you then it allows everyone to catch up and your dead. Or running through pve mobs that aggro and hit you in WvW same thing.

Yeah, that’s the catch. Speed increase isn’t something unique of special.

If every profession has it, then you feel gimped when you don’t use it. But if everyone uses it, you might as well just get rid of it because it’s not a real advantage.

I can’t comment on other professions but roughly 80% of Thieves I see use Singet of Shadows in almost all situations.

Whilst I understand the concerns of the OP, I also appreciate the strategic trade-off decision one needs to make on a regular basis and to whether to slot a 25% signet or something else.

Biggest gripe I have is that we don’t have the facility to quickly switch pre-configured sets of weapons and utilities when out of combat.

Yeah, i think it’s a shame that we have to waste a utility slot so we can run at normal speed : (
Imo, they should grant 25% speed to everyone (passively) and allow people to create deeper builds with the freed skill slot.

I do enjoy the passive speed. I think its fine how it works now as a utility. What I dont like is that not all the classes have the option to use a passive speed signet.

Granting passive 25% speed across the board is not the way to go, it would render swiftness useless. But adding the signet option to every class would give people the choice, stick to limited swiftness only and use another utility skill or use ths signet for the speed.

Personally I’d probably use the signet on some classes and swiftness on others.

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I appreciate the necessity of additional in-combat mobility for certain classes (specifically, thieves and rangers – for both a large aspect in survivability is mobility). Equalization across classes essentially hurts them – if a thief can’t outrun the guardian who’s got aggro of a melee enemy, the thief is going to be at risk – not just on a functional level, but by way of removing some of the flavor of those classes.

On the other hand, it becomes a problem at the macro-scale of the game – not in combat, but moving through zones. The greater distance traversed, the bigger the impact of that 25%. It’s definitely problematic – the faster members of my guild end up having to periodically stop, zig-zag, or double back so the slower members (guardians, mesmers, engineers) can catch up.

Slow enginners? What? It’s the fastest class in the game if they put some talents for it.

SneakyErvin.3056:

Slow enginners? What? It’s the fastest class in the game if they put some talents for it.

The ones in my guild don’t opt to base core aspects of their build around movement speed.

Additionally, by that rationale guardians and warriors should be “faster” classes than thieves, because it’s possible to build (and by build I mean skills and traits) for near 100% swiftness uptime. You’ll have to sacrifice quite a bit of combat potential to do this, however.

The point is, passive speed boosts become problematic out of combat. The ability to traverse the game world while not in combat shouldn’t have inherent inequalities to it.

Hughs.6549:

Yeah, i think it’s a shame that we have to waste a utility slot so we can run at normal speed : (

Imo, they should grant 25% speed to everyone (passively) and allow people to create deeper builds with the freed skill slot.

^This^

Give everyone’s base speed a 25% increase. This way, swiftness would be 33% of the new base speed. Most MMO’s limit speed as just another way to make things take longer, since time sinks are “needed” to prolong people’s time p(l)aying. I would have thought GW2, being B2P, would have eliminated the movement-at-the-speed-of-late mechanic.

Who didn’t run with 33% speed increases all the time? I’d slot stuff and run the right weapons so I’d always be fast on any character. To not do so is gimping yourself in open world fighting.

The 25% passive actually opens up possibilities for different builds.

==> And they allow low level characters to have 25% speed, which is what I think most ganking thieves dislike

Hughs.6549:

Yeah, i think it’s a shame that we have to waste a utility slot so we can run at normal speed : (
Imo, they should grant 25% speed to everyone (passively) and allow people to create deeper builds with the freed skill slot.

This would work. I actually want more slots since PvP choices seem kinda limited in GW2.

I’m “addicted” to them as well, and use the movement signet on both my Thief and Necromancer.

But i feel my Thief only is actually really gimped by it.
The point is, my Necro doesn’t need it, i feel like i have a choice here.
He has 20k base HP (just like Warriors, which is absolutely ridiculous and unbalanced compared to the 10k of especially Thieves and Elementalists, without any tradeoff, if you ask me) and is pretty tanky over all, so if i take a little beating here and there because I’m to slow, it isn’t all that much of an issue.

The problem is my Thief.
He needs to be faster than the average opponent, or he’s dead. It’s as simple as that.
Either i don’t get catched, or I’m doomed.
Also i don’t have all that good access to swiftness as Thief (or lets rather say, it’s absolutely terrible), which is very counter intuitive (just like Fury, but thats another topic for another day).

I can trait for 10 seconds of swiftness on Steal, which has a base CD of 45 seconds.
Using this as little speed boost removes my opener as melee Thief, which means after using a 10 sec speed boost, i can’t engage an enemy for 45 seconds.
Thats a terrible tradeoff, which makes it an in combat speed boost only.

My other source of swiftness is a 2 second (!) swiftness after a dodge roll.
Granted you can trait for more dodge rolls (Feline Grace), this is still pretty terrible, since it not only takes 15 Trait points away from the build i would like to play, it also encourages dodging for movement which is terrible, since you will most likely be out of endurance once you catched up to your enemy.

Aaand thats it. Thats all we got (correct me if I’m wrong).

Thats not enough speed for a fragile, but supposedly fast and deadly profession.

That even super slow but tanky classes like the Necro can hit one button (Spectral Walk) to get 30 seconds (!) of swiftness (plus a cool bonus effect, or brutish heavy armor wearing Warriors with Signet of Rage, granted it’s an elite) makes it even more sad to play a extremely fragile and naturally slow Thief.

So while i switch out my Necro’s movement speed signet regulary for something actually meaningful in combat, i meanwhile see my Thief as a 10k base HP profession with 125% movement speed, but only 2 utility skill slots.
Overall thats more than lacking, and without constantly wasting my precious Initiative on my Short Bow’s Infiltrater’s Arrow and having the Signet of Shadows on me, i see my self getting outrunned by pretty much every profession in the game.

And while getting outrunned by a light and swift Ranger as super tanky Necromancer is perfectly fine, it’s absolutely not ok to be outrunned by a heavy hitting super tanky Warrior as light, “swift” and squishy Thief.

Conclusion:

Why play a slow profession with 10k HP which hits hard, if you can play a fast profession with 20k base HP and more armor that hits even harder?

And..

Passive speed boosts outside of Traits are boring and lazy, and take up important Utility slots.

Professions like the Necromancer have a Trait which gives them increased movement speed while wielding a dagger, to make them more viable when being used as melee character.
Why on earth isn’t that a Thief trait as well?

While i love playing my Necromancer, it’s just ridiculous that i have 20k base HP, easy access to average damage, very good healing and support, long duration swiftness, a passive speed boost sigil (with an active thats at least worth mentioning), weapon skills which grant swiftness and a interesting speed boost trait with limitations (wearing a melee weapon, in this case daggers).

And then theres the Thief, with a speed sigil with a blind. That’s basically it.
Yep..

Dee Jay.2460:

If every profession has it, then you feel gimped when you don’t use it. But if everyone uses it, you might as well just get rid of it because it’s not a real advantage.

I know what you mean, but to be clear not every profession has it. I spend the most time with my Ranger and my Guardian. On my Ranger I’ve gotten quite accustomed to the passive 25% movement speed increase from the signet and it makes moving around the world feel more fluid and engaging. I’ve also found that I no longer need to use the warhorn just as a tool for getting around the map faster. I use it more often as what it was intended for during combat.

When I switch over to my Guardian, I feel very sluggish. It likely doesn’t help that my Guardian is a Norn, and all movement animations on the larger characters feel sluggish anyway. I find myself using the #3 on the staff a lot just to move around the map which feels like a waste. Even though the Guardian probably does not need an in-combat passive movement speed increase, I would love to see an out-of-combat passive movement speed increase.

I heard it works only out of combat. Am I wrong?

If you’re getting outrunned as a thief by anything that isn’t an ele, you’re doing it wrong honestly.
Also wth, passive 25% speedboost for every1 with no cost is the dumbest idea ever.

Crica.1503:

traveling faster feels mandatory, i agree

i personally wish there were no way to do so with class abilities or traits, only consumable buffs via professions/RNG drops/cash shop

No. Just No.

Braindrops.6428:

I heard it works only out of combat. Am I wrong?

Yes. Speed signets definitely work both in and out of combat.

this is the problem when u dont have mounts. mounts are an out of combat passive speed boost. without them or signets + high waypoint costs make it a chore just moving round the world.
so they added these so it becomes a bit more bearable.

They really should just gives us mount and remove those movement speed skills.

They’re essentially useless and take up a skill slot. Pretty lazy design if you ask me.

I agree with OP on most of their points. On one’s that don’t have that speed, I make up with Swtiness gained per kill, not as good as the passive, but you can boost it up to around 1:30 worth of 33% speed. Yes I think it could be cleaner.

Also a norn melee is abysmally slow in feeling. An asura with passive speed, plays like Yoda from episode 2. The lower to the ground, the more sensation of speed.

I feel the passive speed signets need to go,

It’s absolutely infuriating to feel required on my thief, while the long CD gap-closers available to me on my guard/warr/mesmer are ineffectual if I don’t have swiftness setup to augment it. Everytime I blow JI on a rogue I know I won’t get much time on him thanks to that kitten annoying sigil to which I have no cripple to counter.

It just further exacerbates the problem of in WvW/sPvP you have to have either very high uptime on swiftness or a sigil/trait to that effect.

I understand and sympathize with the squishiness of the rogue, but that sigil is a crutch. We could have so many other more interesting options available to us if it were just gone (i.e. inf arrow, shadow step, inf signet, roll for initiative, etc.) or at the very least replace the signet that gives swiftness for about 50% uptime untraited (this is in line/better with most other abilities that grant swiftness).

Wreknar.5076:

I feel the passive speed signets need to go,

It’s absolutely infuriating to feel required on my thief, while the long CD gap-closers available to me on my guard/warr/mesmer are ineffectual if I don’t have swiftness setup to augment it. Everytime I blow JI on a rogue I know I won’t get much time on him thanks to that kitten annoying sigil to which I have no cripple to counter.

It just further exacerbates the problem of in WvW/sPvP you have to have either very high uptime on swiftness or a sigil/trait to that effect.

I understand and sympathize with the squishiness of the rogue, but that sigil is a crutch. We could have so many other more interesting options available to us if it were just gone (i.e. inf arrow, shadow step, inf signet, roll for initiative, etc.) or at the very least replace the signet that gives swiftness for about 50% uptime untraited (this is in line/better with most other abilities that grant swiftness).

The thing that bothers me the most is that it’s a skill that can easily be replaced by other things such as potion and mounts – there really isn’t a need to get that speed buff on your skill bar during combat, but at the same time it is incredibly useful when NOT in combat.

Considering we’re in combat half the time we might as well get mount or potion for speed buff and save that extra slot for other combination.

Anet is essentially handicapping their own game because the speed buff reduced the variability of skill rotations…. which is a tad….ridiculous.

But we all know how much Anet hates mount. They hate them enough to screw their own game over…<< something I’m still baffled about til this very day.

I have to disagree with the OP. Signets provide an additional on use ability that has some marginal value usually. Thieves gain a 5 sec Blind. That feels insignificant in most combat situations and so it seems like the skill only does one thing, but it has value in most situations. Usually a different skill would have MORE value once combat starts. Learning when to use SoS and when to drop it for something else takes time but when you do it helps make you a better player.

I play thief and I use Signet of shadows often, but I know when to and when not to. Its a great skill tester and (should) teaches players the value of a utility slot.

It is so easy to switch out that there is no excuse not to be, and learning situations where you are likely to need another skill and should switch it out is imperative to your growth as a player.

Each class has access to a combination of abilities that can provide close to 100% swiftness or 25% passive. The biggest difference is in how much you have to sacrifice to maintain that

Thief – 1 Utility slot
Necro – 1 Utility slot
Ranger – 1 Utility slot
Elementalist – Utility slot or trait combinations
Eng – Traits AND 1 Utility slot
Warrior – 1 Elite Utility slot And traits and/or weapon choice
Guardian- Utility slot and/or weapon choice
Mesmer- No idea (haven’t played one but i know they have a speed buff they can throw on the ground)

Each class has to give up certain things to maintain that speed boost. For some its not much of a sacrifice. Warrior’s can run with swiftness fairly easily but also gain Fury and might to go with it for instance.

Running with SoS 100% of the time isn’t wrong, it just isn’t optimal. I like the balance that creates.

I’ve been playing on my Thief a lot lately, and I only use the Signet of Shadows to run long distances. When a fight is about to happen, I switch it out for whatever the situation calls for.

But on most occasions, I don’t have it equipped and that is perfectly fine for me. Only D/D Eles, Thieves, and the occasional Warrior can get away from me, but only seldom.

If I get caught in combat with SoS active, then it’s no biggie. I only equip escape and mobility Utilities, so I just have one less cooldown to manage.

Grazingcattle.1627:

I play thief and I use Signet of shadows often, but I know when to and when not to. Its a great skill tester and (should) teaches players the value of a utility slot.

Except there’s no need to because we only ever get 5 utility and we have like 25 of them. Utility slot is precious – we know that without the signet. The handicap/sacrifice is completely unnecessary, and gaining 1 more skill that isn’t essentially useless in combat – save for the 5 sec blind if you call that useful – can also give player more rotation possibilities.

showatt.9413:

Except there’s no need to because we only ever get 5 utility and we have like 25 of them. Utility slot is precious – we know that without the signet. The handicap/sacrifice is completely unnecessary, and gaining 1 more skill that isn’t essentially useless in combat – save for the 5 sec blind if you call that useful – can also give player more rotation possibilities.

SoS is not a special case. Every single skill you equip is at the cost of another skill. SoS is no different. I personally have 6 skills, not healing or Elite, that I want to have equipped, and SoS is not one of them. I have to pick my skills at the cost of all the others I want.

SoS is nice to have, but it is far from necessary. Do you want speed, or a teleport? A teleport or a pull? A pull or a stealth? A stealth or something more offensive?

I use the speed sig on my Thief because I too have got addicted to the speed it provides, but I do not see it as poor design. On my Engi and Guardian I don’t have that option, but I do not miss it either. If I need a speed boost I have active skills or traits to compensate.

At the end of the day it is a choice you make. I can be just as fast if not faster on my Thief without having the sig equipped, but I choose to use it because the active is useful and it’s nice to have an effortless speed boost for exploring. It’s not vital by any means. In fact when escaping the signet does very little to help me get away, as most players in pursuit are using swiftness, leaps, teleports and CC’s to catch up with me or slow me down.

All it is is a convenient passive effect. It’s not vital and your build will not be broken without it.

If it has to go, I would suggest bumping everything up 25%, the game feels much better at that speed.

Horrorscope.7632:

If it has to go, I would suggest bumping everything up 25%, the game feels much better at that speed.

Then swiftness would need to be bumped up to 33% ontop of that. The whole purpose of the swiftness boon is to provide a limited ability to close the gap/get away which is countered by cripple/chill.

Gisei.5749:

showatt.9413:

Except there’s no need to because we only ever get 5 utility and we have like 25 of them. Utility slot is precious – we know that without the signet. The handicap/sacrifice is completely unnecessary, and gaining 1 more skill that isn’t essentially useless in combat – save for the 5 sec blind if you call that useful – can also give player more rotation possibilities.

SoS is not a special case. Every single skill you equip is at the cost of another skill. SoS is no different. I personally have 6 skills, not healing or Elite, that I want to have equipped, and SoS is not one of them. I have to pick my skills at the cost of all the others I want.

SoS is nice to have, but it is far from necessary. Do you want speed, or a teleport? A teleport or a pull? A pull or a stealth? A stealth or something more offensive?

Anything is better than SoS.

But I’m not just talking about soS only.
All signet/skills with passive speed buff should go.
It’s a skill that’s useful out of combat, but it’s hardly worth getting for combat and if combat finds you with SoS/ other Passive speed on you have 1 less utility to work with.

True your build wont be broken without it – that’s the point. It’s a useless skill for combat. Why not have something that you can get a kick out of instead of something you use only to get around?

Why do this, when you can get cool mounts that dismount you when engaged?

Wreknar.5076:

Horrorscope.7632:

If it has to go, I would suggest bumping everything up 25%, the game feels much better at that speed.

Then swiftness would need to be bumped up to 33% ontop of that. The whole purpose of the swiftness boon is to provide a limited ability to close the gap/get away which is countered by cripple/chill.

Yep and enemies as well. Saying make the base speed faster and everything else from there. Like this won’t happen, but just sayin…

Reloading.3260:

Some form of speed increase is pretty much mandatory for my characters.

My thief and ranger both always use the signets.

On my warrior for my general use build I have +20% swiftness duration from two runes of the pack, +20% boon duration from 20 points in tactics and +20% boon duration from omnomberry cream food just so I can have perma Signet Of Rage swiftness when doing open world stuff. Can’t stand to play him without it.

If I couldn’t obtain some form of permanent speed increase and was stuck to anets default turtle speed I just wouldn’t bother playing. It’s that infuriating.

Wtb Mounts.

Mounts aren’t the answer. Increasing overall speed out of combat is preferable, and maybe in combat as well. We already get to move faster out of combat than in it, just expand that a bit to include +15% out of combat and +25% in combat from it’s present state.

Please don’t try to further your agenda of getting mounts in game by folding this discussion into it, it’s off topic.

speed buffs are only there closing gaps/escaping or traveling map. I use the signet on my ranger as it allows me to chase my enemy or when out numbered to turn and run (along with pulling out my GS so i can get another move skill). If everyone had the 25% then there would be no escaping really for the ranger. Not everyone uses so it has a purpose.

And what about my aforementioned suggestion about replacing those signets with a on use swiftness buff? Wouldn’t that be sufficient to give you your needed out? Mind you that swiftness right now eclipses 25% speed by roughly 8%.

Also, in my opinion, escape mechanics, including those for rangers need to be more interesting that a simple speed increase. Teleports, leaps, evades, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc add far more flavor to escape than just moving faster. How many rangers do you know user SB #3 as an escape? What about the thief utility Shadow Step?

Not many, mostly because they are underpowered compared to a passive boon that’s up to discussion here.

Technically it’s not just about speed increases. It’s about ANYTHING passively increased. Its just lazy game design. Instead of creating an interesting mechanic with multiple applications in various situations, you have a passive effect that feels mandatory to have. It removes choice from the player and also removes depth in gameplay combat systems.

It is only a problem on the Thief.

Every other profession with a movement speed signet also has access to good sources of swiftness. It is not obvious whether I want to run a 25% movement signet on my Necromancer, or Spectral Walk for a high uptime swiftness, or to equip a Warhorn for running around, or just relying on being bulky and not having to run around much in combat. There are a lot of options.

For the Thief, you have essentially no access to swiftness, and zero access to swiftness on demand. Thief is also the most mobility dependent profession in the game. Without alternatives, the Thief relies very heavily on that signet for moving around, both in and out of combat; it only comes off for incredibly stationary fights, such as dungeon legendaries or sPvP bunker-offs.

I don’t think the passive boosts are bad design, especially since they do not stack with stronger speed boosts; the poor design is the lack of more interesting alternatives that keep it from feeling necessary.