Guild Wars 2

I can’t learn how a option works if I can’t see it or it isn’t available. Imagine how this would work in RL (ridiculous).

Djinn.9245:

I can’t learn how a option works if I can’t see it or it isn’t available. Imagine how this would work in RL (ridiculous).

Oh people do? Here have a look at this video . This what you see on a regular basis now at those dodge trainers. Keeping in mind that all the time they do this there is a huge textbox telling them what to do, if they click it away it will reappear, if they talk to the npc right next to it they will know exactly what to do and they have a HUGE arrow pointing at the endurance bar all the time. This guy made it through, not by dodging but by using a skill, he finished the tutorial but never understood the concept of dodging because he was too lazy to read a 6 liner + he also saw how another player dodged through it.

It’s pointless to cater to these kinds of people, they aren’t overwhelmed by the game they just don’t want to put in any effort, they are lazy. They don’t read, they just want to be entertained. THIS is the crowd that demands more cinematic experiences in a frigging videogame, less interaction, more handholding, NO CHALLENGE.
Those are the same people who have no remorse when they afk every world boss, disrupt dungeon groups with their inexperience and lack of communication skills ( Hey you know what you do when you have no idea how something works? Hint: You ask the group!). If A.Net seriously decided to cater to this group then what’s left for “us”? You know, the people who like challenge, the people who actually like the social aspect of mmos, the people who help each other without expecting any compensation?

Yes, there are people who won’t “get” things that are different in GW2 from whatever MMO they’re used to. But that is not what I’m talking about.

Anet removed a bunch of things from low level content to “improve the new player experience”. Supposedly it is to make it easier for a new player. But people learn how to do things by doing them, not by not doing them. This will just make people learn things (like how to deal with 5 whole weapon skills) later instead of earlier. Etc.

I am that kind of player that loves reading everything written on tooltips etc, lore, directions, dialogue everything. When i do instances i read every new buff/debuff or other stuff that appear on the screen even if it means i will get killed for stopping to read. Games that dump everything at me to learn by myself but provide me the necessary information are the games i enjoy the most.
Dumbing down games is the last thing i will want to see and i will walk away never looking back. Basically this new leveling experience is a tutorial till max level. That is insanely many hours of tutorial.

I’m all for tutorials for crucial in-game information (such as how to dodge), but I really do hate how the new leveling system gates everything..

Teaching players every aspect of the game right out the door is impractical, but you don’t have to take away features in order to teach them later. It is the whole “teach via boredom” thing all over again: by depriving players of stimuli, they are expecting to use their monotonous and boring time to brush up on their skills and personally better themselves. But people don’t better themselves to fight boredom. They turn on the TV to fight boredom.

People learn by doing to a certain extent. But the greatest lessons come from failure.

If the dodge tutorial would have been designed to trip on everything (including teleports) except an evade, the players would eventually learn that legit dodging is the only way.

kokiman.2364:

Djinn.9245:

I can’t learn how a option works if I can’t see it or it isn’t available. Imagine how this would work in RL (ridiculous).

Oh people do? Here have a look at this video . This what you see on a regular basis now at those dodge trainers. Keeping in mind that all the time they do this there is a huge textbox telling them what to do, if they click it away it will reappear, if they talk to the npc right next to it they will know exactly what to do and they have a HUGE arrow pointing at the endurance bar all the time. This guy made it through, not by dodging but by using a skill, he finished the tutorial but never understood the concept of dodging because he was too lazy to read a 6 liner + he also saw how another player dodged through it.

It’s pointless to cater to these kinds of people, they aren’t overwhelmed by the game they just don’t want to put in any effort, they are lazy. They don’t read, they just want to be entertained. THIS is the crowd that demands more cinematic experiences in a frigging videogame, less interaction, more handholding, NO CHALLENGE.
Those are the same people who have no remorse when they afk every world boss, disrupt dungeon groups with their inexperience and lack of communication skills ( Hey you know what you do when you have no idea how something works? Hint: You ask the group!). If A.Net seriously decided to cater to this group then what’s left for “us”? You know, the people who like challenge, the people who actually like the social aspect of mmos, the people who help each other without expecting any compensation?

That guy had to be non-English speaker or a child.

Most people learn by doing, but each player learns at different speeds. The problem arises when you try to force players into situations they are not prepared for, a fine example is SAB world two. The whole premise was to force players into becoming better at jumping puzzles but you can not force people to learn, it has to be natural, like the much more successful SAB world one.

But at the end of the day trying to make players better at the game is pointless due to the fact that the majority will almost always take the easy route. A fine example of this is the Queensdale Champion train, other places could be more rewarding but players choose the train because at the end of the day they prefer to relax and gain easy loot.

Anyway I do agree with the op, if you want people to learn things they need to have access even if they do not pick up on it right away, just do not expect people to do it or force them.

Aedelric.1287:

Most people learn by doing, but each player learns at different speeds. The problem arises when you try to force players into situations they are not prepared for, a fine example is SAB world two. The whole premise was to force players into becoming better at jumping puzzles but you can not force people to learn, it has to be natural, like the much more successful SAB world one.

But at the end of the day trying to make players better at the game is pointless due to the fact that the majority will almost always take the easy route. A fine example of this is the Queensdale Champion train, other places could be more rewarding but players choose the train because at the end of the day they prefer to relax and gain easy loot.

Anyway I do agree with the op, if you want people to learn things they need to have access even if they do not pick up on it right away, just do not expect people to do it or force them.

Yep, luckily GW2 doesn’t force people to do anything. If you don’t like one type of content you can simply avoid it. But I can’t choose whether or not to do something if it isn’t available to me.

I can definitely see removing certain content for new players if they were forced to do it. But it just doesn’t make any sense to me to remove it since they were not. New players that are either experienced gamers or may just find it easy to do things now don’t even have the option to challenge themselves with the things that were removed.

After all, if a person finds 5 weapon skills too complicated they can always just use 2 of them. But if you are only given 2, better or more experienced new players don’t have any options anymore.

IMO less choice is never better.

Djinn.9245:

I can’t learn how a option works if I can’t see it or it isn’t available. Imagine how this would work in RL (ridiculous).

It’s…not really that ridiculous, in my opinion. If I’m teaching someone a program with a lot of options, like Maya, I try to keep them focused on just the tools and concepts we need immediately, so that they can quickly gain confidence and a sense of understanding. Once they wrap their head around one element, I can introduce them to other ideas on a learning curve. I don’t have a convenient option to hide most things, but I still find myself telling them “don’t worry about that,” “just ignore that for now,” and “we’ll explain what that is later.”

They’re still learning by doing; you’re just keeping them focused on doing a couple things at a time. Some people are happy to dive right in, but other people need to follow the curve, and some people get intimidated if things look overwhelming.

I haven’t started a new character yet, so I can’t say whether the new experience is on the whole a good thing or not, (keeping in mind the bugs apparently being experienced,) but it’s not a patently absurd way to introduce people to the game.

Did I “get” ideas like bundles, golem chess, and a separate PvP lobby right away? Sure. A lot of people do. But it sounds like a lot of people don’t, and newbie retention rates were suffering for it.

Edit: I’d like to add that by making weapon skills character-based instead of weapon-based, that part of the learning curve actually sped up substantially. Now, if I’ve been playing with Scepter/Focus and switch to Staff for the first time, I immediately have five skills I can use, instead of having to learn each one at a time.

Comparing learning GW2 to learning animation software is kind of ridiculous also.

I meant like learning to walk: most people learn in a normal home with furniture and varying surfaces like rugs, wood and tile. Imagine that every child learned to walk in a completely featureless room with no obstacles because that would be “too hard”. Then after a few months they are put in a room with obstacles. Is this going to be easier or harder? Now the child is going to be running into things because he wasn’t taught to deal with them from the beginning.

And as I said, those new players who appreciate a challenge are going to think GW2 is a new childrens’ MMO or something. Maybe they’ll go find something more challenging.

You’re dealing in absolutes. If comparing GW2 to learning a program with a lot of tools and settings is ridiculous, learning to walk around in a room with chairs is your better example?

Yes, that definitely seems like a more appropriate comparison.

Redenaz.8631:

You’re dealing in absolutes. If comparing GW2 to learning a program with a lot of tools and settings is ridiculous, learning to walk around in a room with chairs is your better example?

Yes, that definitely seems like a more appropriate comparison.

Playing GW2 involves making a character that represents you do things. You press one button to make it move forward, press a number to make it fight. Its not very complicated. Learning how to play well or min-max a character build is more complex, but the convo is about beginning players.

And learning to walk is somewhat difficult for a new baby.

Playing a character that represents yourself in a world environment is much more intuitive than learning a complex and abstract computer program.