Guild Wars 2

Traced.3495:

I need it. Currently in Guild Wars sorting my inventory to prepare for Canthan New Year, this trading is a beautiful thing.

Selling doesn’t even come to my mind, I tend to move things between my accounts constantly. But it’s like there’s this invisible wall keeping my characters apart even though they are right next to each other… It’s like I can’t properly reach.

If I were you, I would make a bank guild and have all your accounts in it. It’s very easy to transfer things like that.

jokke.6239:

ungascarlo.7459:

if you want safe trading, use the trading post. personal trading encourages map chat clogs and scams as i’ve experience on other mmorpg

They could make a trading channel – Edit: allthough I realize that people would still spam in main chat

You can make a trading system where you can’t scam, Rift has one etc.
You send an item to a person, the item is locked untill he pays the ammount that the sender has requested. If he doesn’t pay the item will automaticly be sent back to the sender.

It doesn’t stop the most common “scamming” method used in the direct trading systems – exploiting inexperience of the other side by proposing prices that are far away from the market value.

“Quote”
Olvendred.3027
The TP is -
1. Good for the economy as a gold sink.
2. Good for the economy as it brings all buyers and all sellers together, so prices find equilibrium.
3. Good for players, as it’s safe.
4. Good for players, as you can instantly see useful information about how much other people are buying/selling for. This makes it incredibly easy for new players, and those who don’t follow the economy, to get good prices for what they’re selling.

People trying to avoid TP taxes are just being greedy. Remember, prices are set by players. That means the 15% tax on the seller is already taken into account in how much people sell for.

I strongly oppose the introduction of any personal trading system.
“End quote”

Your opinion is duly noted, and matches a few others. Lets compare for a moment to real life. Based on your opinion a farmer should never be allowed to sell his produce at his front gate as many in our country do in the small farm areas. He should accept the few cents per produce item, sometimes not even covering the cost of growing the product (in troubled economic times) and watch happily as similar produce is sold in retail shops for 10 to 20 times the amount he is offered by big retailers. There should also be no weekend markets like the ones that attract thousands of people where they occur here, where small producers, hobbyists and sometimes just people selling second hand or sometimes vintage items get together and sell stuff. (Yes I know they too pay a small fee but it is more affordable to them than trying to sell through a retailer). Two people might have a conversation in some form, mumble, TeamSpeak, PM, or even in a (as yet not available) trade chat and 1 agrees to sell to the other (or swap for another item but not covering that here), the intention of the seller being to ensure the other player only, gets the item (possibly at a much cheaper price if the item is normally high priced in trading) but still does not actually know the person in a way that he can be certain of getting paid. C.O.D. would be perfectly safe (in mail) as the items is there, buyer can see it is correct item, but if he does not put in the correct amount of money he will not get the item; it will auto return to the sender eventually. A/ it cannot be scammed, and B/ as in real life, it should be treated and dealt with (scamming; cheating; stealing) as in real life with heavy penalties that allow reimbursement to the aggrieved party, and heavy loss/penalty to the perpetrator. Note that in real life face to face trading does not have you paying a tax or other party for the privilege. It is not like Anet is losing something out of it. Where the tax goes or does not go does not affect them. And one can always monitor B.L.T. to be aware of the current public price verses what they are paying. Scammers exist because of anonymity and the evil intentions they have. They are only anonymous to other players in game, not to Anet; so Anet is the Authority that must punish scammers. Evil in game is as vile as in the real world. As for your comment on a gold sink. That is a rich persons mentality. Must have a way of taking money off others. When you are broke you do not need a place to throw more money. You need a way of obtaining what you need at a price you can afford given that money (as you are levelling toons; never mind whatever it may be like for lvl 80, toons now bored with nothing left to strive for) does not exactly fall out of trees or the pockets of many of the mobs you kill. Maybe you need something like a 60% income tax for high money earners like Governments have; verses a much lesser tax for low income earners. Maybe that will help solve this apparent money sink problem you have. Safe is as safe as Anet choose to make it. Scammers can be stopped or punished if Anet choose to do it. Penalties and reimbursement can be done if Anet choose to do it. Free trade and retail exist in the real world because lack of anonymity allows for punishment. Scam some mob like the Mafia or bikies or loan sharks(just examples) and tell me they will not find and punish you. The argument in the end is simple. Allow or not allow free trade is only a decision. The ability to safely implement it is easy enough, if the decision were to allow. Chat for selling/buying can be controlled if Anet wish to implement it. They do not at the moment allow it or have anything in place to make free trade safe and may never do so. But people should still be able to talk in forums to put forward their ideas on it and try to have change introduced if that is what they want, same as real life.

^TLDR.

Anet’s stated they created the TP as a replacement to p2p trading. That should be a pretty kitten big clue for people about their view on adding a p2p trading system in the game. This should be furthered by their comments about abusing LFG as a WTS- do so at own risk (and this is being generalized to cover the ramifications of abusing LFG as a selling tool).

Even further, people continue to think they’re going to be able to suggest p2p trading that’s not taxed. Like. Hell. Anet wanted trades taxed, that’s the way it is on the TP. You think p2p trading isnt going to be taxed?

Thunderbird.8036:

“Quote”
Snipping the rant

Having read your rather lengthy post, you still haven’t actually come up with a good legitimate reason for GW2 to have a player to player trading system except for some straw man arguments about real life.

1. How does a player to player trading system benefit the playerbase as a whole?
2. How does the in game economy benefit as a whole?
3. Given the limited resourcing of anet how much do you think they would need to invest into a dedicated service to investigate the inevitable flood of scam reports for a system that actually nets the company nothing in terms of revenue but would merely be a cost centre?
4. From a business perspective what is in it for anet to create such a costly system?

Thunderbird, I got about 4 lines into that text wall and gave up.

Your first analogy is pointless, about a farmer selling say, eggs outside his/her front gate. I’ve seen them where I live- a sign saying how much they cost and an “honesty box” type-thing for the payment.

BUT there’s a large difference in cost between a few dozen eggs and a prestige item like a legendary/precursor in-game. My point being this: you wouldn’t put your car outside with the keys in the lock and a sign saying “£2,000- please put the money through the letter-box”.

Thunderbird.8036:

snipped wall of text

Ok, so in most of your analogy there is this thing called income tax. So basically Anet should put in income tax now? The only way to really avoid it would be to keep buying new accounts and playing the shell game. Which then new accounts would benefit Anet’s bottom line. I think the income tax should be aggressively progressive too. So let’s see, add a flat rate tax on P2P trade. Then add in income tax too. Yup, that should handle anyone wanting to subvert the TP.

^If any of that didn’t wake you up at all, then I’ll simply state that the game could be a lot less generous with the economy. Stop being so glass half empty and complaining please?

I understand your frustration, Thunderbird, but I think you gravely underestimate just how much gold is being pumped into the GW2 economy every single day. If that 15% TP tax did not exist, you would see prices climb constantly, at a rate where players would be complaining, “I’m trying to buy X for 10g. I earned 2g today, check the TP and now X is worth 15g?”

Game inflation is a terrible, TERRIBLE thing. It HAS to be kept in check or it will absolutely ruin the game as a whole. Nobody likes the taxes, but they are essential to the game’s health.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I would support P2P trading under 2 conditions:

1. 50 gem per transaction fee to pay for the extra support staff
2. Perma ban for spamming trades in map chat

So, you’d only support it if it were so painful to actual use that nobody’d ever have any real incentive to use it much anyway?

How nice.

naiasonod.9265:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I would support P2P trading under 2 conditions:

1. 50 gem per transaction fee to pay for the extra support staff
2. Perma ban for spamming trades in map chat

So, you’d only support it if it were so painful to actual use that nobody’d ever have any real incentive to use it much anyway?

How nice.

I could get on board that idea

Not in favor of a system to circumvent the gold sink of TP taxes with little risk.

naiasonod.9265:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I would support P2P trading under 2 conditions:

1. 50 gem per transaction fee to pay for the extra support staff
2. Perma ban for spamming trades in map chat

So, you’d only support it if it were so painful to actual use that nobody’d ever have any real incentive to use it much anyway?

How nice.

Of course. Granted, the system would still be at your own risk, so if you still got scammed, Anet wouldnt do kitten to help you.

It’s simple. You want safe? Sell/buy on the TP where you’re guaranteed that safety because of the trade taxes. You want to be a greedy bookah? You can try via mapchat and the mail system with absolutely zero safety. Those are your two absolutes, and Anet’s not really interested in doing something in the middle.

Use the trading post, other than being safe it acts as a gold sink, and we need it, inflation is getting crazy

Ok having read (most of) the thread, I feel it’s time for me to add my thoughts.

While there are many great reasons NOT to have P2P trading (TP fees, WTS spam, scamming, etc.) and all those have been covered in detail, what I am still wondering is WHY people would want this feature. Sure it can be done in such a way that 100% prevents scamming, and be able to reduce spamming (not 100% but a trade channel would help keep it minimized). But why? Is it easier to trade X item to a player directly? Or sell them item on the TP, collect your money, then buy what you are looking for? What are the benefits of P2P trading that cannot be found within the TP system? (gold sinks, taxes, fees aside. Functional benefits).

I for one, can’t think of a functional reason why P2P trading would work better. It seems to me to be more of a hassle than anything.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Secondly, it’s an insulation against scamming – if you want to be sure you’re not getting scammed? To the Trading Post instead of the nice charr you just met today who said he’ll give you 5g for that Superior Rune, but you need to send him the rune first since his mail system is bugged.

Also, no Spamadan. That, alone, is worth the tax.

. . . you’re not listening to some of the people anyway, given what followed this statement. The reasons to not have person-to-person trading have been cited, and experienced, by many of us GW1 veterans.

How could scamming be a problem in player-to-player trading when anyone could simply do a quick check on the average price at the TP?

Moreover, GW trading took place in a special trade-only chat tab, which you could – like any other chat tab – turn on/off very easily.
So the argument on wtb/wts spamming map chat is moot, as one could simply turn it off.

I see no real downsides to p2p trading unless you’re being extremely careless and don’t even read or don’t even check the amount of money specified in the trade window……..

I also never got scammed, or had any real issues with trading as such, so yea.

As for reasons against the TP, flipping and money rip-off (or money sinks, as some like to call them) make for rather strong cases. Mind that not everyone is sitting on bags of cash, because some of us actually play(ed) those parts of the game that didn’t end up frying our brain due to sheer boredom and mindlessness. Sadly those parts are/were typically unrewarding.

Lastly, the reason why TP was introduced instead of p2p trading? Simple. Given the target demographic and the sheer number of players they anticipated, having an idiot-proof solution was likely considered more practical in the long run, saving them thousands of support tickets in the process. Afterall, your typical usual Joe Pve Casual is a pretty silly and careless chap.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Secondly, it’s an insulation against scamming – if you want to be sure you’re not getting scammed? To the Trading Post instead of the nice charr you just met today who said he’ll give you 5g for that Superior Rune, but you need to send him the rune first since his mail system is bugged.

Also, no Spamadan. That, alone, is worth the tax.

. . . you’re not listening to some of the people anyway, given what followed this statement. The reasons to not have person-to-person trading have been cited, and experienced, by many of us GW1 veterans.

How could scamming be a problem in player-to-player trading when anyone could simply do a quick check on the average price at the TP?

Moreover, GW trading took place in a special trade-only chat tab, which you could – like any other chat tab – turn on/off very easily.
So the argument on wtb/wts spamming map chat is moot, as one could simply turn it off.

I see no real downsides to p2p trading unless you’re being extremely careless and don’t even read or don’t even check the amount of money specified in the trade window……..

I also never got scammed, or had any real issues with trading as such, so yea.

Um…. you seem a bit clueless. The fact that you could turn off the trade channel in GW1 was the entire friggin reason places like kamadon earned the name spamadon. People would spam the other chat channels nonstop. Same kitten is going to happen here, with the wts/wtb bullkitten being spewed onto mapchat.

Second, just because YOU didnt have any issues doesnt mean the risks arent there, and that Anet’s going to put in p2p trading. Third, if you’re doing an item <- → gold trade, just do it through the trading post. If it’s an item <- → item trade, again, do it through the trading post. Those fees you pay? They fuel the safety and inability to scam through the trading post.

And frankly, Anet’s not going to do it simply because it’s pointless. They’d need to hire people to manage the chats in major cities, and 3984756923487562938745693248756% more customer support staff to deal with the scrubs who cry about a bad trade.

Outside a few random wts/wtbs here and there, I don’t remember seeing All chat flodded by trade spam.

The reason I didn’t have issues is because I took enough care and caution when trading. For prices, I’d do a PC on guru (or observe the trade tab for a while) or ask those more knowledgable about the items in question. And I rather do a little bit of extra work than pay a fee each time I want to sell something.

I know they won’t do it. Like I said, the current system is more practical as it spares them a lot of customer support work, but I just don’t think that the downsides that come with TP are something that should be ignored or even accepted.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Outside a few random wts/wtbs here and there, I don’t remember seeing All chat flodded by trade spam.

My memory is that I could rarely have a conversation if I was in Kamadan, because chat would scroll too fast with all the WTB and WTS. Before Nightfall came out, Kaineng Center was pretty much the same. Not sure about LA, I didn’t hang there that much and was not in the game until just after Factions released.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Secondly, it’s an insulation against scamming – if you want to be sure you’re not getting scammed? To the Trading Post instead of the nice charr you just met today who said he’ll give you 5g for that Superior Rune, but you need to send him the rune first since his mail system is bugged.

Also, no Spamadan. That, alone, is worth the tax.

. . . you’re not listening to some of the people anyway, given what followed this statement. The reasons to not have person-to-person trading have been cited, and experienced, by many of us GW1 veterans.

How could scamming be a problem in player-to-player trading when anyone could simply do a quick check on the average price at the TP?

Moreover, GW trading took place in a special trade-only chat tab, which you could – like any other chat tab – turn on/off very easily.
So the argument on wtb/wts spamming map chat is moot, as one could simply turn it off.

I see no real downsides to p2p trading unless you’re being extremely careless and don’t even read or don’t even check the amount of money specified in the trade window……..

I also never got scammed, or had any real issues with trading as such, so yea.

Please . . . are you listening? Or are you not paying attention?

First, there were at least four known scams I ran into. All of them relied on inattentiveness and carelessness, or just plain lack of knowledge. And they still got plenty of people.

- Mursaat Token mistaken for Ecto
- Faked Althea’s Ashes (or the wrong item)
- Selling customized weapons.
- Selling Dedicated minis as Undedicated.

Second, there are at least two others I know of but did not run into

- “My trade is bugged, drop it on the ground so I can pick it up”
- Trading for items quickly swapped out, such as a gold R13 for the presumed gold R10 you were paying for.

Just because you never encountered them, or think that someone would need to have the brains of a turnip, doesn’t mean they weren’t happening nor does it mean people were completely avoiding getting scammed. It happened. ANet support knows it happened. Fan forums knew it happened.

. . . The wiki knows it happened

IndigoSundown.5419:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Outside a few random wts/wtbs here and there, I don’t remember seeing All chat flodded by trade spam.

My memory is that I could rarely have a conversation if I was in Kamadan, because chat would scroll too fast with all the WTB and WTS. Before Nightfall came out, Kaineng Center was pretty much the same. Not sure about LA, I didn’t hang there that much and was not in the game until just after Factions released.

LA was like that up until Nightfall and Spamadan. Why?

Loads of players bought Nightfall for the heroes since they were incredibly useful. Ergo, they had access to Kamadan.

Eye of the North (Outpost) also was a bustling marketplace for miniatures or things which would be useful for the Hall of Monuments.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Secondly, it’s an insulation against scamming – if you want to be sure you’re not getting scammed? To the Trading Post instead of the nice charr you just met today who said he’ll give you 5g for that Superior Rune, but you need to send him the rune first since his mail system is bugged.

Also, no Spamadan. That, alone, is worth the tax.

. . . you’re not listening to some of the people anyway, given what followed this statement. The reasons to not have person-to-person trading have been cited, and experienced, by many of us GW1 veterans.

How could scamming be a problem in player-to-player trading when anyone could simply do a quick check on the average price at the TP?

Moreover, GW trading took place in a special trade-only chat tab, which you could – like any other chat tab – turn on/off very easily.
So the argument on wtb/wts spamming map chat is moot, as one could simply turn it off.

I see no real downsides to p2p trading unless you’re being extremely careless and don’t even read or don’t even check the amount of money specified in the trade window……..

I also never got scammed, or had any real issues with trading as such, so yea.

Please . . . are you listening? Or are you not paying attention?

First, there were at least four known scams I ran into. All of them relied on inattentiveness and carelessness, or just plain lack of knowledge. And they still got plenty of people.

- Mursaat Token mistaken for Ecto
- Faked Althea’s Ashes (or the wrong item)
- Selling customized weapons.
- Selling Dedicated minis as Undedicated.

Second, there are at least two others I know of but did not run into

- “My trade is bugged, drop it on the ground so I can pick it up”
- Trading for items quickly swapped out, such as a gold R13 for the presumed gold R10 you were paying for.

Just because you never encountered them, or think that someone would need to have the brains of a turnip, doesn’t mean they weren’t happening nor does it mean people were completely avoiding getting scammed. It happened. ANet support knows it happened. Fan forums knew it happened.

. . . The wiki knows it happened

Or the “not fancy but sometimes worked” scam where the buyer puts a lower amount of plat than agreed on and hope the other person misses it (hopes the other person hits accept too fast or doesn’t see the 10,000 instead of the 100,000 plat).

One guy tried that with me.

Are YOU not paying attention? I said it takes a bit of extra care on the player’s end, and reading/checking item names and the amount specified in the money section. If you’re either careless or simply lazy than paying extra is surely the preferable option.

Moreover, whenever the initial offer would be changed, a large red text popped up saying the offer was changed. If people are both blind and illiterate on top of careless and lazy, then by all means do cough up the extra money. I however found it rather silly to have only one option, and saw little reason why there wasn’t also a direct and upfront, fee-less trade option on top of the standard TP trading.

Moreover, where exactly did I state such things ’weren’t happening’? You’re just pushing your assumptions here based on me saying I had no ill experience. I’m aware of every single one of those, as a matter of fact, which is why I always took extra care with those things. How preposterous of me.

It’s all about being informed and paying attention, something that tends to be rather useful not only in a virtual but also rl environment.

pdavis.8031:

Ok having read (most of) the thread, I feel it’s time for me to add my thoughts.
…
I for one, can’t think of a functional reason why P2P trading would work better. It seems to me to be more of a hassle than anything.

The benefit sought after was stated directly in the OP… trading safely while also avoiding the 15% TP tax.

That this would kitten the entire game economy for everyone, including the OP, is apparently not a good enough reason for them to accept the TP tax.

Thunderbird.8036:

As for your comment on a gold sink. That is a rich persons mentality. Must have a way of taking money off others. When you are broke you do not need a place to throw more money. You need a way of obtaining what you need at a price you can afford given that money (as you are levelling toons; never mind whatever it may be like for lvl 80, toons now bored with nothing left to strive for) does not exactly fall out of trees or the pockets of many of the mobs you kill. Maybe you need something like a 60% income tax for high money earners like Governments have; verses a much lesser tax for low income earners.

The loss of major money sinks would hurt low income players more than it would higher income players. Each time people who with gold make expensive trades, large chunks of that money are removed from the game, leaving the rich a a bit less rich than before, and that helps hold down prices for the rest of us.

You are only looking at your own personal income rather than the economy as a whole. Without the tax, you would have 15% more income from sales, but so would everyone else, and the supply of items would not be increased. The price of everything would have to increase to compensate. So your 100% of sale income won’t buy you anything more than your 85% of sale income does now.

As other players earned gold and sellable items faster than you did, the rich would get richer faster than you and you would just see things become more and more unaffordable as time goes on.

Fortunately, the game economy people at Anet understand game economies better than you.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Are YOU not paying attention? I said it takes a bit of extra care on the player’s end, and reading/checking item names and the amount specified in the money section. If you’re either careless or simply lazy than paying extra is surely the preferable option.

Yup.

. . . but since it was such a widespread issue in, well . . . every game ever I played without a centralized auction house? I don’t think its unreasonable to draw the conclusion people aren’t paying attention.

Much like yourself.

Moreover, whenever the initial offer would be changed, a large red text popped up saying the offer was changed. If people are both blind and illiterate on top of careless and lazy, then by all means do cough up the extra money.

That got added much like the nice “this email is not from ArenaNet staff” text in the mail system now, because people were falling for scams often enough to impact support.

So . . . it’s not solely about losing out. It’s about them going to support about it. And support going to the coders and going “please help us babysit these people”.

Moreover, where exactly did I state such things ’weren’t happening’? You’re just pushing your assumptions here based on me saying I had no ill experience. I’m aware of every single one of those, as a matter of fact, which is why I always took extra care with those things. How preposterous of me.

I did as well, and I never was successfully scammed on. And yet . . . as I noted, it was tried. Multiple times. Including one where the scammer threatened to report me for scamming since I didn’t buy into their gig.

I’m also fully aware not everyone is so fortunate, and some people believe that letter they get in the mail which says they won a lottery they never entered.

It’s all about being informed and paying attention, something that tends to be rather useful not only in a virtual but also rl environment.

. . . which, I’ll note for the record, doesn’t have all that good a track record either on average.

Person to person trading is only asked for by the uninformed (who shouldn’t be that way after reading this thread) and those who seek to scam others.

It has no place in modern gaming as it is a horribly-inefficient and crime-rife antique.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Anet’s stated they created the TP as a replacement to p2p trading. That should be a pretty kitten big clue for people about their view on adding a p2p trading system in the game. This should be furthered by their comments about abusing LFG as a WTS- do so at own risk (and this is being generalized to cover the ramifications of abusing LFG as a selling tool).

Even further, people continue to think they’re going to be able to suggest p2p trading that’s not taxed. Like. Hell. Anet wanted trades taxed, that’s the way it is on the TP. You think p2p trading isnt going to be taxed?

And that bolded part is enough for /thread I think. They wanted TP to REPLACE p2p trading so asking for p2p is meaningless.

mtpelion.4562:

Person to person trading is only asked for by the uninformed (who shouldn’t be that way after reading this thread) and those who seek to scam others.

It has no place in modern gaming as it is a horribly-inefficient and crime-rife antique.

Well said.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That got added much like the nice “this email is not from ArenaNet staff” text in the mail system now, because people were falling for scams often enough to impact support.

Yeah .. and still we have masses of postings from people who don’t get that.

That sadly really shows how easy it is to scam people