Guild Wars 2

I played MMOs before UO was even a “thing”, and can slightly agree as far as there is a lowered potential of our voices (individually or otherwise) having a major effect on the game we love to play. (Or in some cases, loathe to play, or stopped playing and won’t stop mentioning that.)

On the other hand, there are signs we are being heard, and what we say is being listened to. The problem seems to come when what’s asked for is not exactly what we get . . . which, I’m afraid to say is my opinion . . . is very hard to understand how this surprises anyone when it happens.

Designing anything is simple compared to the act of developing it and then making it real. Let alone the issue of what happens when an idea seems real good on paper and turns out to be a real turkey when practiced.

One of these I recall being around for was back when games didn’t shy away from having PvP in the open world . . . and the bright idea was asked for and implemented to give people who didn’t want to partake a way of not having that happen. An attempt failed in my first beloved MMO pretty hardcore, and is pointed to as one of the things which “killed” Ultima Online. And in almost every game since then, I’ve seen it asked for over and over. I’m not sure which side is really the best option, but I do know it’s a real stupid maneuver to either add it to a game which wasn’t developed with it in mind, or to remove it from a game with it developed in mind.

And that’s just one in my gaming lifetime. I’ve seen other things which have been requested and given, then wound up basically diluting and reducing the potential of games.

It’s not even that, I’ve had a firsthand experience of watching a game where one rule, one simple rule which everyone hated, was unanimously agreed upon to not be in effect anymore. The result was a game which was completely devoid of fun . . . so much so, we don’t touch it anymore. I try to bring out the box and everyone groans and tells me to put it back.

Anyway. It sounds idiotic when you hear it but it is often true – not every player request for change will result in a positive effect on the game, and sometimes a good idea might not be the best fit for a game.

Guhracie.3419:

Sizer.5632:

Guhracie.3419:

Vayne.8563:

I just keep coming back to it’s only for achievements. That’s it. If you don’t care about achievements, it shouldn’t matter at all. If you do care about them, it matters in the positive way. There’s no way you could have gotten 10 achievement points before without going much further out of your way.

What option was taken away exactly? The ability to get five achievement points in a shorter time or with less effort?

What do achievement points mean anyway? Why are they important? If they are important, why shouldn’t they require us to go out of our way?

Edit: Okay, I think I understand where we’re not connecting. I’m in no way saying that the old system was superior and should be returned. I’m saying that there’s no observable reason to continue to cull the number of options from which to choose our 3 dailies. Does that make more sense?

The number of dailies keeps diminishing, at least in the PvE category. Before April, we had something like 10-12 choices, just in PvE. I find it discomfiting that the variety is slowly being sapped out of things.

I don’t miss getting the points for each daily, I miss having a wider pool of options.

I… am kind of at a loss here. I honestly don’t know how to make this more clear. I will keep on trying, though.

Instead of doing 3 out of a choice of 4 dailies, give the game modes 6 each to choose the three from. 10 APs. Map specific, just like they are now. I just don’t like that wanting more options is being misappropriated as wanting stuff for nothing, or being unreasonable. It’s not unreasonable. We had it. Anet took it away, for no apparent reason.

I’m not making stuff up out of thin air. This is not the alleged “I want to stand in Divinity’s Reach and chat with my friends and be rewarded for it” thread. This is me going:

“Hey. We had more options, and now we don’t.”

It’s becoming narrow and linear, and that alarms me, personally.

You are wrong though, because you absolutely, positively did not have more options before.

If you were an ap hunter (and if youre not, then there is no point in complaining about this), then counting only the pve ones, you HAD to do 8 of the 8 daily achievements, many of which were just as specific as the ones we get now.

So before, do 8 specific dailies out of 8, get 8 ap (or 12 out of 12 if you wanted to get max). Now, do 3 out of 4, and get 10 ap, with zero need to do more to max out your ap/day. Not to mention that you dont have to go outside of one game mode to max your ap/day, which is also giving people MORE choice.

You can argue that before if you really didnt like 2 of the choices, you could still get 6 ap, but now if you dont like 2 of the choices, you dont have an option to get partial credit. But again, if youre an ap hunter, then before you would have gone out of your way to get all of them done no matter what, and if youre not an ap hunter, then again, this shouldnt be a concern, because other than ap, these dailies give nothing unique at all.

I cant think of any reason why more choices would be a BAD thing, especially with all the stuff in pve that could count towards it. Dungeons/fractals can easily be a guaranteed option each day, just like world bosses/events/gathering/kills/ect., which should be easy enough to add up to 6 options per day.

There is no excuse to not give more options in the future, just like the pvp/wvw ones could also use some work (the pvp class specific ones in particular are a terrible idea), so the system isnt perfect at all.

But the entire purpose of this thread is still misleading because, once again, you dont have less choices by any means now.

This is baffling to me. I absolutely, positively, had more choices before now. This is an empirical fact. 8-12 is greater than 4. The purpose of this thread is not misleading. What you’re arguing is that it’s now easier to earn those 10 achievement points, and that’s true. I don’t see that I’ve indicated anywhere that it’s not. But it’s not even slightly misleading to say that there are fewer options to choose from.

I think you are playing fast and loose with the definition and application of empirical. As before, we have 12 possible daily achievements, not 4. Previously, we had to complete 5 of those 12 to complete the daily. Now we need to complete only 3 of the 12.

Obviously, you will counter that there are fewer PvE-centric options and you would be correct. However, the stated purpose of the new daily system is to get players to explore new game modes.

With the new daily system I think Arenanet et al has managed a good balance between choice, reward, and incentive to try new game modes.
That is especially true, if we keep in mind that the new daily system only awards achievement points.

Psientist.6437:

Obviously, you will counter that there are fewer PvE-centric options and you would be correct.

In his original post, Guhracie stated in no uncertain terms that he was speaking primarily with regards to PvE, his play mode of choice. So yes, there are absolutely, positively, without any question far fewer choices of PvE achievements to do. But after 4+ pages it perhaps doesn’t get specified in every post anymore. The OPs original issue is that we have less choice in PvE achievements now, which is unquestionably true.

Psientist.6437:

However, the stated purpose of the new daily system is to get players to explore new game modes.

After two years, most players have already explored other game modes. (Gotta do something to keep things fresh). We’ve explored many niches and we already know the things we like to do. This whole thing reeks of “New Player Experience” again, if you ask me; trying to tell newbies where to go and what to do at the expense of the veteran players.
______________________________

But back to PvE choices. I have always thought it unfair that PvPers and WvWers had fewer selections aimed specifically at their area of interest. It’s great that they’ve evened out the score in that respect, but as many people have pointed out the choices are still very limiting (play a specific Profession, etc.)

Yes, many of the Dailies are ridiculously (even stupidly) easy, and PvEers could go do non-PvE things to finish them. But this is a game, not a job. We play to have fun, not be told what to do by someone else. We need more freedom of choice in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Many players only want to play one of those three modes, and 4 options is not very many in that light.

Give us more options, and give us “meatier” options. No more “view a Vista in Queensdale”. That’s not an achievement. That’s “kill 10 rats”.

Previously, to get laurels we had to do dailies and/or monthlies. If we wanted to craft ascended gear or purchase items from the laurel vendor we had to do dailies and/or monthlies. That is what a lack of choice or no choice looks like. Under the new system, we can treat the daily achievement the same way we treat every other achievement, with complete freedom.

Focusing on the comparative number of PvE choices between the previous and current daily system is a demonstration of the metaphors of “not seeing the forest for the trees” and “comparing apples to oranges”.

After two years and many characters I’ve tried pretty much all parts of the game and decided which parts I like and want to stick with.
In my personal opinion it doesn’t seem like Anet agree with me though as the keep trying to ‘encourage’ me back towards the bits I don’t want by modifying, tinkering, and ‘improving’ the areas I do like.

I really dislike the feeling of being herded.

Along with significantly less choice for daily activities is the issue of impact on the environment. Massive lag and other problems induced by forcing people to one zone to complete specific tasks, for instance. Very poorly thought out!

Psientist.6437:

…
Obviously, you will counter that there are fewer PvE-centric options and you would be correct. However, the stated purpose of the new daily system is to get players to explore new game modes.

I already tried spvp and wvw. Don’t like them. Won’t play them. If spvp and wvw were all that great to play they wouldn’t need to push people to play them.

Hamfast.8719:

Psientist.6437:

Obviously, you will counter that there are fewer PvE-centric options and you would be correct.

In his original post, Guhracie stated in no uncertain terms that he was speaking primarily with regards to PvE, his play mode of choice. So yes, there are absolutely, positively, without any question far fewer choices of PvE achievements to do. But after 4+ pages it perhaps doesn’t get specified in every post anymore. The OPs original issue is that we have less choice in PvE achievements now, which is unquestionably true.

Psientist.6437:

However, the stated purpose of the new daily system is to get players to explore new game modes.

After two years, most players have already explored other game modes. (Gotta do something to keep things fresh). We’ve explored many niches and we already know the things we like to do. This whole thing reeks of “New Player Experience” again, if you ask me; trying to tell newbies where to go and what to do at the expense of the veteran players.
______________________________

But back to PvE choices. I have always thought it unfair that PvPers and WvWers had fewer selections aimed specifically at their area of interest. It’s great that they’ve evened out the score in that respect, but as many people have pointed out the choices are still very limiting (play a specific Profession, etc.)

Yes, many of the Dailies are ridiculously (even stupidly) easy, and PvEers could go do non-PvE things to finish them. But this is a game, not a job. We play to have fun, not be told what to do by someone else. We need more freedom of choice in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Many players only want to play one of those three modes, and 4 options is not very many in that light.

Give us more options, and give us “meatier” options. No more “view a Vista in Queensdale”. That’s not an achievement. That’s “kill 10 rats”.

The problem with this point of view is the assumption that PVE players are somehow forced to do WvW or PvP content. They’re not. In fact, quite the opposite. With the bulk of rewards pulled from dailies and placed in the logins, more and more dailies are an optional endeavor. It’s no different from not being able to wear Arah armor because you don’t want to do the Arah dungeon, or not getting the 10 achievement points for a jumping puzzle because you don’t want to do the jumping puzzle.

As the person you quoted stated, and you conveniently ignored, the point of the daily revamp is to encourage people to explore other game features. Encourage, not force.

Lazuli.2098:

Psientist.6437:

…
Obviously, you will counter that there are fewer PvE-centric options and you would be correct. However, the stated purpose of the new daily system is to get players to explore new game modes.

I already tried spvp and wvw. Don’t like them. Won’t play them. If spvp and wvw were all that great to play they wouldn’t need to push people to play them.

Congratulations for having a preferred game mode? I apologize for the sarcasm, but I do not see why having a preferred game mode means you have less freedom when doing the new daily. You can now treat the daily the same way you treat any other PvE achievement that awards 10 achievement points. Arenanet has given us more freedom by removing the laurel reward from dailies….

edit
especially veteran players

I think my daily was completed at 00:05 last night, 1 game of pvp. You might not have the choice to kill 50 boars for 1 achieve but you can choose to try other game modes and you’lll get the achieve points faster than the old system.

Psientist.6437:

..You can now treat the daily the same way you treat any other PvE achievement that awards 10 achievement points. Arenanet has given us more freedom by removing the laurel reward from dailies….

edit
especially veteran players

No they haven’t given me any more freedom. I could have always not done them before but because they could be blended into other goals I used the daily requirements to direct where I would play. Now I am exercising my freedom to not do the dailies and to play GW2 less, but I could always have done that before.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

On the other hand, there are signs we are being heard, and what we say is being listened to. The problem seems to come when what’s asked for is not exactly what we get . . .

I hear traffic, yet it does not inform many of my actions.
Point being, sure, there’s penny if evidence that we’re heard, though only the usual amount common to mmo’s on respect to that anything acted upon is to improve our gaming experience.

Sure, that’s a broad topic given how subjective the notion of improvement is, though would anyone care to tell me who benefits by traits being locked as they now are?

Anet does, by making a long and invoices chore list out of a mechanism that did not prior have any such gating. What benefit does this provide them? Illusion of content, strong encouragement to both play a lot and get a lot of gold to buy traits and accelerate your way toward finally having a toolbox to work with.

Do WE benefit by this? Does this improve the game experience for any of us? Not in any discernible fashion I can intuit. Worse than being no help at all though, or actively angers everyone I’ve ever heard say anything at all about it in game.

With changes like that being given the song and dance like they’re anything other than self-addressed gift baskets from Anet to Anet at our collective expense, I’ll feel warranted in looking to the future of GW2 with absolute dread.

Ever heard the saying ‘with friends like those, who needs enemies’?

As to whether or not they listen though, it’s very easy to put on a good show of listening and caring while only really giving a hoot about what one is going to have for lunch later. The gist of what the rest of your post said, I largely agree with insofar as that I certainly agree that very little can be made well if it’s being designed by committee.

I await the day when an mmo should exist that is genuinely made by anyone that A) plays their own game and has to actually feel the effects of their hamfisted decisions and does more than pay lip service to the concept of caring about the game experience for actual people rather than their contextually asinine metrics.

Whatever mmo devs seem to universally have in their drinking water seems to convince them all that they’re going to succeed where everyone else has failed. They’ll be the ones to figure out the magic numbers that must surely exist to explain phenomenon like WoW, if only they get the metrics right.

I love math, but Anet, if you think you’re ever going to find magic numbers that make everything elegant and beautiful in dealing with people, you’re going to be another punchline in a radically long joke.

My advice to Anet, muttered into the void as it surely is?

So relying so slavishly on impersonal metrics to make QoL decisions, or you too can be coiffured and sad when everything that seems so perfect on paper just make period so mad.

Life must be very mysterious to devs so walled away behind metrics that the concept of players being people might well exist in the same mnemonic territory as myths and rumors, but I promise, it’s true.

I’m sure trait locking looks so beautiful in writing, and provides such an elegant and actionable solution to several frayed ends, and some of you are just wilted with dismay and confusion as to why so many people seem to hate it like it was spit in their faces.

Look past yourselves. Your problems are not ours. Whatever elegance in resolution such a system provides is both invisible and irrelevant to anyone that just plays the game.

Or problems are your problems. We’re very noisy, not typically so stupid as some like to believe and prone to feeling very invested in the things we do in our games.

Imagine, if you will, that your office buildings were suddenly deprived of elevator services. It’s the stairs for all of you, and gosh, look at all the money to be saved by no longer needing to pay for elevator maintenance or liability insurance inclusive of that sort of machinery on premises!

And you’ll all get so much more exercise! Its so elegant and perfect!

You guys getting making traits such a manual slog o unlock them one by one? Comparably as inconveniencing and obnoxious as all of your elevators being forever gone.

Some very few of you might like that some of the time, perhaps more in concept than in actual reality after a few months. I reckon most of you would hate it from day one and it would only get worse from there.

It’s like that. Really.

I’m going to make a lot of assumptions here. Just know i agree the limited choices are frustrating.

As to just limiting choices, i think Arena is more of the mind that less choices for players are better in an already fairly complicated system. MMORPGs are typically pretty complex and tossing more options at players isn’t necessarily a good thing. However, to the dailies, it seems odd that they actually made some of the options slightly more complicated. Similarly with the trait system.

As to why we see more specific dailies now. It’s possible Arena has some set of metrics that says players aren’t really participating all that much in (for example World boss) which they might feel is an epic hook to get players interested. What the metrics might not show however, is that World boss fights are very problematic for players given the amount of lag and skill spam.

Alternatively, in lieu of a much larger system, it could be that a great deal of this is in place to direct players around the world. For example, getting players acquainted with certain tasks by building better systems that explain things. It might just be that this is the easiest way for them to do that sort of thing.

I’m fully of the mind this is all about retaining players interests in the world as a whole. What the actual intent is, whether it’s metrics boosting or simply the path of least resistance to get a certain outcome, i really have no idea.

Great tone in your OP Guhracie.

I have always said a lot of the patches this year are, “One step forward, two steps back.” I really like that I can get laurels now for just logging in. I like that I can do 3 things and get 10 achievement points. I don’t like that they didn’t just keep the dailies as they were and incorporate them into this new system. Why does gatherer need to be region specific? Salvager was great for PvP etc. My friend quipped the other night while in a Fractal that he didn’t get any part of his daily done and we used to be able to complete dailies just doing a Fractal without thinking about it. It’s a great point.

Dailies for the most part used to come naturally. Sure, sometimes you would have to go out of your way to do one or two things, but most of the time they could be completed by just playing the game. That was refreshing. Most games that I have played that have dailies made you do specific things and that is why GW2’s system was so refreshing. Now they just have a daily system like every other game. While that’s not a bad thing, it certainly isn’t great and it’s part of a larger issue not found only in the daily system, but in every system that was introduced this year.

Filaha.1678:

Technically, before, you could only unlock your traits to use by paying gold to the trainer. Now, you can unlock them by either paying gold/SP or doing a task that costs you nothing but time.

So, technically, you have more choice now than before, as far as unlocking traits goes.

As well, there were 12 dailies to choose from before, and 12 dailies to choose from now. Same amount of choice on what dailies to do. As well, one can choose to get their 10 AP by never leaving PVP or WVW, while before they couldn’t always choose to do so.

There’s a difference between “less choice” and “making different choices”.

You mean by doing a task that will require you to be level 80 and traited to do since most of the time it requires you to do pretty hard group events which are neglected by everyone else. My ele is my main. Played that character for 956 hours. Completed map. All dungeons (story and explorable) were fullfilled on that character more than once. I use him to do world events, jumping puzzles, LS, gathering, yet I had to buy almost (if not for 1 or 2) all of the traits I needed for both the PvE builds I need and the WvW one, (including some grandmaster trait I unlocked for PvP). Point is, most of people are still forced to pay gold unless you don’t plan to do anything else but traits hunting for a few weeks at the very least, with the difference that unlocking all traits is much more expensive and requires tons of skill points which highly limit you for what concerns alts (unless you truly play them a lot or store your scrolls of knowledge).
There is less choice and you can see it perfectly when you look at the activities: once you were free, at any moment of the day, any day to go and have some rounds of Kegs Brawl, Crab Toss, Sanctum Sprint (etc), whenever you liked to. Now, if you want to play a specific activity you can only pray that today was the day of that activity.
The only in game new armor skins added lately (and no-black lion weapons skins) forced you to play DT and SW. Arguably, no one forces you to have those skins, but the fact they are the only in-game new skins you can obtain through playing and no paying gems, in a way forces you to.
Before, as stated, PVE daily had many more options, now only 4, which force you to either spend time in one specific map, not region, or to do one specific event. Before you could do daily much more freely, now you must necessarely accept to do something you don’t like if it’s in the options.
Before I could do any of the Orrian Temples if I wanted to, now I either keep the LFG open al the time in hope that someone will taxi to an event or I must remain for hours in the area of the temple I want to wait till it starts.
Before I could do my personal story whenever I wanted, I could use it to speed my levelling up if I wanted, now I can not until reaching a certain level.
Before I could find a team and run a dungeon with a low level without feeling (as much of) a useless burden than now, that if I joined for AC story with a level 30 I would go with 1 trait only.
Before, I could finish a tutorial I did hundreds of times and know more than by heart in less than half the time, by unlocking a few skills on a good weapon. Now I can only spam 1 and take ages to complete it.
Before if I needed a specific sigil I could consider running high level personal story to obtain it as it was a sure reward. Now no more, can only buy some. (for those which can’t be crafted.)
Before there were more spots and options for farmers, now it’s all about zerg and have others complain about toxic community.
Before they at least added gem store armors, allowing me to mix’n’match thus choose what my character could look like. Now it’s all about outfits for the most, dress up like all of our characters just came out of a assembly line.
Could go on forever…

I don’t think people in this thread understand where the “freedom” from the old dailies came from.

A person solely doing the WBT could almost always finish their dailies before they finish the train and monthlies before the end of the month. This was due to the broad areas of achievement they provided. You could play how you wanted and still get rewarded even if you don’t necessarily do everything.

With me only wanting the laurels, I just needed the boss farm which I liked and which I found rewarding for me game-wise. Rares, sellable junk and I have my Laurel before I log. All of these somewhat make up for my crappy RNG luck.

With the new system, there is a good chance I will have to go out of my way to get it and I don’t even get my laurel in the end. However I can get them by logging on. So now if I want my Laurel, I have to log on each day. If I want the AP I can’t just do the boss train to get it. I have to go to Mag and forage for plants I most likely do not need. I have to kill a specific world boss, which wouldn’t be a problem except if its one I can’t get to due to schedule or one I don’t like going to. Not only that my choices are limited unless I go into PvP or WvW which lost its appeal to me months ago.

And I don’t get anything until I do 3 of them.

Things that I used to get by playing the game how I saw fit is now gate behind things I don’t want to do. That is what some people don’t understand about the old system compared to this new one.

yolo swaggins.2570:

With the new system, there is a good chance I will have to go out of my way to get it and I don’t even get my laurel in the end. However I can get them by logging on. So now if I want my Laurel, I have to log on each day.

Evidence suggests this is incorrect – you will get it no matter what even if you miss a day. You’ll just cycle through it slower.

If I want the AP I can’t just do the boss train to get it. I have to go to Mag and forage for plants I most likely do not need. I have to kill a specific world boss, which wouldn’t be a problem except if its one I can’t get to due to schedule or one I don’t like going to. Not only that my choices are limited unless I go into PvP or WvW which lost its appeal to me months ago.

And I don’t get anything until I do 3 of them.

Ah . . . yes? Though if you’ve been playing long enough, you may have hit cap on Daily.

Things that I used to get by playing the game how I saw fit is now gate behind things I don’t want to do. That is what some people don’t understand about the old system compared to this new one.

I still have trouble grasping why it needs to be done now as opposed to eventually . . . but then, I’ve grown patient lately when it comes to my games due to necessity.

What I can’t fathom is this permeating assumption that the new dailies are some sort of huge time/effort investment. They have been designed to move you around the map, yes. The idea is that you might find something you end up liking and stay longer. You don’t have to though. If all you want us the ap, you can complete the dailies in 5 to 10 minutes and then head on over to wherever else you want to go.

Subdue.5479:

What I can’t fathom is this permeating assumption that the new dailies are some sort of huge time/effort investment.

No, they are an additional time investment over what i was doing before. Which means (since i’m not going to play longer), that they decrease my actual playing time, and thus my enjoyment.

Astralporing.1957:

Subdue.5479:

What I can’t fathom is this permeating assumption that the new dailies are some sort of huge time/effort investment.

No, they are an additional time investment over what i was doing before. Which means (since i’m not going to play longer), that they decrease my actual playing time, and thus my enjoyment.

I can only assume you are after the achievement points. I would approach the decision to do your daily the same way you approach doing any other 10 point achievement and most every other 10 point achievement requires going out of your way to accomplish something.

Consider, that built into your response is your agreement with Subdue’s comment. It appears you consider the new daily system as something that must be done or at least something that awards something important. That may have been the case with the previous system, but not any longer.

yolo swaggins.2570:

So now if I want my Laurel, I have to log on each day.

How were you getting your laurels from dailies before if you weren’t logging on each day?

Filaha.1678:

yolo swaggins.2570:

So now if I want my Laurel, I have to log on each day.

How were you getting your laurels from dailies before if you weren’t logging on each day?

By logging on when I wanted to and then doing boss farm to knock out dailies. Were you here before the dailies update? Because if you were, I don’t know why I would have to explain it to you.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Filaha.1678:

yolo swaggins.2570:

So now if I want my Laurel, I have to log on each day.

How were you getting your laurels from dailies before if you weren’t logging on each day?

By logging on when I wanted to and then doing boss farm to knock out dailies. Were you here before the dailies update? Because if you were, I don’t know why I would have to explain it to you.

But you had to log on each day to do the dailies for that day. Not logging on would still make you miss laurels and get less than if you had logged on.

Filaha.1678:

By logging on when I wanted to and then doing boss farm to knock out dailies. Were you here before the dailies update? Because if you were, I don’t know why I would have to explain it to you.

But you had to log on each day to do the dailies for that day. Not logging on would still make you miss laurels and get less than if you had logged on.[/quote]

Way to twist my words.

No. The Laurel reward was always there in the old system instead of gated behind login counts. And the old system made it so easy to get what I wanted that I didn’t have to conform to any other playstyle other than my own to get what I wanted.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Way to twist my words.

No. The Laurel reward was always there in the old system instead of gated behind login counts. And the old system made it so easy to get what I wanted that I didn’t have to conform to any other playstyle other than my own to get what I wanted.

I’m not twisting anything. I’m using logic. If one cared about acquiring laurels through dailies, then one had to log in each day to do the dailies to get maximum laurels. Missing days would be objectively a decrease in the rate of laurels per day.

Filaha.1678:

I’m not twisting anything. I’m using logic. If one cared about acquiring laurels through dailies, then one had to log in each day to do the dailies to get maximum laurels. Missing days would be objectively a decrease in the rate of laurels per day.

Yes you are twisting my words.

I never said I wanted or was aiming for maximum laurels. I was pointing out that I got laurels at my leisure with the old system. All I had to do was the boss train and the dailies would get done without me needing to track them.

The new system requires me to log on consecutively to get the laurels instead of logging on whenever I want and do w/e I want.

yolo swaggins.2570:

The new system requires me to log on consecutively

Oh, I see the problem.

You think you have to log on consecutively.

You don’t, as stated, in no uncertain terms, in the announcement blog post:

Missed a day because of work, vacation, or a work vacation? No worries, your progress is still there! The next time you log in, you’ll pick up where you left off. The system will only reset once you’ve claimed the 28th and final reward.

That is part of the problem. With the old system I log in when I want and do what I want and get a laurel.

Now I have to keep logging in or I don’t get laurels.

yolo swaggins.2570:

That is part of the problem. With the old system I log in when I want and do what I want and get a laurel.

Now I have to keep logging in or I don’t get laurels.

And you can still log in when you want and do what you want and get laurels. And you had to log in before to get laurels because dailies didn’t do themselves while you were offline.

Either you’re trolling or you really don’t understand the new system, because your complaint doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

yolo swaggins.2570:

That is part of the problem. With the old system I log in when I want and do what I want and get a laurel.

Now I have to keep logging in or I don’t get laurels.

I think you are mistaken. You don’t need to login 28 times in a month to get the laurel.

You just need to login an accumulate of 28 days to get the laurel.

So if you login 28 times in 3 month, you still can get the end rewards.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Login_rewards

As long as you login 28 days, you get all the laurel. So for example if you only login 28 times in a year, you get I think 35 laurel. You can also choose to get 20 more depending if you want laurel/legendary/ascended chest as the 28th day reward.

Wow. You guys are hardcore twisting my words.

laokoko.7403:

You just need to login an accumulate of 28 days to get the laurel.

So if you login 28 times in 3 month, you still can get the end rewards.

^ This is the exact reason I am trying to describe to you guys.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Wow. You guys are hardcore twisting my words.

laokoko.7403:

You just need to login an accumulate of 28 days to get the laurel.

So if you login 28 times in 3 month, you still can get the end rewards.

^ This is the exact reason I am trying to describe to you guys.

I think people just dont’ understand why you are complaining.

Do you mean you like getting laurel everyday instead of getting laurels in packages? In most days you get none and all of a sudden you get 10 or 15.

It’s basically the same as before except you dont’ get them everyday.

Perfect example of less choice: Merry Christmas PvE Players, you can today do Fractals or you can do Fractals if you only do PvE for your daily AP. Cos TWO CHOICES FOR PVE TODAY, CHRISTMAS DAY, ARE FRACTALS!

laokoko.7403:

I think people just dont’ understand why you are complaining.

Do you mean you like getting laurel everyday instead of getting laurels in packages? In most days you get none and all of a sudden you get 10 or 15.

It’s basically the same as before except you dont’ get them everyday.

No it isn’t the same.

Old System
Log on + WBT = Almost guaranteed 5AP and a Laurel and monthlies progression

New System
Log on + WBT = High chance of nothing of value (because Laurels are gated and Dailies are too specific to complete doing 1 round of WBT. Monthlies is gone.)

And if they can’t understand this, that’s their problem.

LA GW.6753:

Perfect example of less choice: Merry Christmas PvE Players, you can today do Fractals or you can do Fractals if you only do PvE for your daily AP. Cos TWO CHOICES FOR PVE TODAY, CHRISTMAS DAY, ARE FRACTALS!

While that is a bit odd, it also means you can get both those dailies for doing only one thing.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Wow. You guys are hardcore twisting my words.

laokoko.7403:

You just need to login an accumulate of 28 days to get the laurel.

So if you login 28 times in 3 month, you still can get the end rewards.

^ This is the exact reason I am trying to describe to you guys.

The reason you dislike it is because if you log in 28 times at your own pace, you can get 55 laurels? If that was split across two months and you did your dailies each day you logged in and your monthlies each month, you’d still only have 48 laurels compared to 55. The only way the old system would be more beneficial is if you split up your 28 logins over three months, leaving you with a grand total of 3 more laurels. And honestly, if you’re not even logging in 28 times in three months, it seems a bit strange to be concerned with how many laurels you’re getting.

Olvendred.3027:

LA GW.6753:

Perfect example of less choice: Merry Christmas PvE Players, you can today do Fractals or you can do Fractals if you only do PvE for your daily AP. Cos TWO CHOICES FOR PVE TODAY, CHRISTMAS DAY, ARE FRACTALS!

While that is a bit odd, it also means you can get both those dailies for doing only one thing.

And —>Point

—>Your Head

This is a perfect example of restricted choice, the whole reason behind this thread. It’s not a feature. This is ANet trying to force people to do moldy old content many people have no interest in doing to inflate metrics and say ‘see? see? people play all our content!’

Filaha.1678:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Wow. You guys are hardcore twisting my words.

laokoko.7403:

You just need to login an accumulate of 28 days to get the laurel.

So if you login 28 times in 3 month, you still can get the end rewards.

^ This is the exact reason I am trying to describe to you guys.

The reason you dislike it is because if you log in 28 times at your own pace, you can get 55 laurels? If that was split across two months and you did your dailies each day you logged in and your monthlies each month, you’d still only have 48 laurels compared to 55. The only way the old system would be more beneficial is if you split up your 28 logins over three months, leaving you with a grand total of 3 more laurels. And honestly, if you’re not even logging in 28 times in three months, it seems a bit strange to be concerned with how many laurels you’re getting.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Philosophy-Shift-to-Less-Choice/page/4#post4651384

yolo swaggins.2570:

Filaha.1678:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Wow. You guys are hardcore twisting my words.

laokoko.7403:

You just need to login an accumulate of 28 days to get the laurel.

So if you login 28 times in 3 month, you still can get the end rewards.

^ This is the exact reason I am trying to describe to you guys.

The reason you dislike it is because if you log in 28 times at your own pace, you can get 55 laurels? If that was split across two months and you did your dailies each day you logged in and your monthlies each month, you’d still only have 48 laurels compared to 55. The only way the old system would be more beneficial is if you split up your 28 logins over three months, leaving you with a grand total of 3 more laurels. And honestly, if you’re not even logging in 28 times in three months, it seems a bit strange to be concerned with how many laurels you’re getting.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Philosophy-Shift-to-Less-Choice/page/4#post4651384

So you dislike that even though you can get more in the same amount of time while not having to go do anything, whether you world boss train or not, you don’t get them each day, even though the prices of most items through laurels make it mostly irrelevant whether you get them daily or in a batch?

Pardon me if that seems like trying to grasp for a reason to dislike it.

LA GW.6753:

Olvendred.3027:

LA GW.6753:

Perfect example of less choice: Merry Christmas PvE Players, you can today do Fractals or you can do Fractals if you only do PvE for your daily AP. Cos TWO CHOICES FOR PVE TODAY, CHRISTMAS DAY, ARE FRACTALS!

While that is a bit odd, it also means you can get both those dailies for doing only one thing.

And —>Point

-->Your Head

This is a perfect example of restricted choice, the whole reason behind this thread. It’s not a feature. This is ANet trying to force people to do moldy old content many people have no interest in doing to inflate metrics and say ‘see? see? people play all our content!’

I got the point. I was merely pointing out that it had benefits as well.

I suspect this is a teething problem with the new rotation, rather than an intended lineup of dailies.

@ Filaha

And you try to put words in my mouth to invalidate my point, so we are even.

The topic this thread is about “less choice”. Regardless, how much better the rewards are, it doesn’t change the fact that there is less choice in getting them in this new system.

Nice try though.

yolo swaggins.2570:

@ Filaha

And you try to put words in my mouth to invalidate my point, so we are even.

The topic this thread is about “less choice”. Regardless, how much better the rewards are, it doesn’t change the fact that there is less choice in getting them in this new system.

Nice try though.

Previous: You could do WBT for 28 days to get 28 laurels from daily achievements + 10 if monthlies can be done through WBT too.
Current: You could do WBT for 28 days to get 55 laurels from daily log-ins.

You can choose to do the same thing, or anything else in the entire game, and get more laurels in the same amount of time.

How is choice removed?

Right, it isn’t.

Filaha.1678:

Previous: You could do WBT for 28 days to get 28 laurels from daily achievements + 10 if monthlies can be done through WBT too.
Current: You could do WBT for 28 days to get 55 laurels from daily log-ins.

You can choose to do the same thing, or anything else in the entire game, and get more laurels in the same amount of time.

How is choice removed?

Right, it isn’t.

Apparently you can’t help but argue wording and cherrypick at the details so I am just going to let you figure it out on your own.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Filaha.1678:

Previous: You could do WBT for 28 days to get 28 laurels from daily achievements + 10 if monthlies can be done through WBT too.
Current: You could do WBT for 28 days to get 55 laurels from daily log-ins.

You can choose to do the same thing, or anything else in the entire game, and get more laurels in the same amount of time.

How is choice removed?

Right, it isn’t.

Apparently you can’t help but argue wording and cherrypick at the details so I am just going to let you figure it out on your own.

I did figure it out on my own. I answered at the end. No choice is being removed from you. In fact, you are given even more choice, as you don’t need to do WBT on a day if you don’t want to, and still get your laurels. You could run naked through the streets of Lion’s Arch and still get your laurels.

I’ve been absent for the holidays, and I hope everyone is enjoying themselves, regardless of how meaningful today is for you personally. I seem to have fallen a bit behind on this thread, but I want to thank Hamfast from the bottom of my heart for cutting to the heart of the matter. I do feel as if I have been exceedingly clear about where I’m coming from, so I’m really too tired to address people who haven’t bothered to read it.

One thing I will say about laurels is that it’s an issue of: “I used to be able to get a laurel every single day I could do my dailies, and now they’re time-gated.” It’s working out well enough for me, personally, but it still has the potential to negatively impact other players.

Another comment that I am having trouble with understanding is people who have said that dailies are a snap to complete now, and then turn around and talk about how I am obviously someone who wants something for doing nothing, as if more choices somehow diminish the “accomplishment” of achieving the daily. Which one is it? Do the new dailies require more effort or less? Because either way, you’re contradicting yourselves.

Additionally, I would like to thank Iason Evans for summing up my feelings so well in such a succinct posting. It was such a delight and a relief to play a game so very different from any other MMO I’d ever tried, and this year has made the experience same-y in a lot of ways, and that’s disappointing.

People, choice isn’t the same thing as freedom. I feel like a lot of people are conflating the two words, and perhaps it’s because I misused them at some point, and if that’s the case, my apologies. In the context of this thread, I’m talking about diversity of options.

Filaha.1678:

I did figure it out on my own. I answered at the end. No choice is being removed from you. In fact, you are given even more choice, as you don’t need to do WBT on a day if you don’t want to, and still get your laurels. You could run naked through the streets of Lion’s Arch and still get your laurels.

There you go again… putting words in my mouth. I never implied I needed to do WBT to get my laurels.

Guhracie.3419:

One thing I will say about laurels is that it’s an issue of: “I used to be able to get a laurel every single day I could do my dailies, and now they’re time-gated.” It’s working out well enough for me, personally, but it still has the potential to negatively impact other players.

To be fair, I would consider it more of an issue in regards to laurels if it wasn’t for the fact that most things unique to laurel vendors require them in batches where one a day is not really a significantly frequent benefit. If you’re going to spend 30 laurels on an amulet, for example, why does it matter whether you got them one a day for 30 days or all in a bunch at the end of 21? If you’re going to spend them on crafting materials to sell, does it particularly make a difference if you get one bag a day versus 11 bags after a week?

I can’t honestly think of any situation in which one a day makes a real significant difference over bunches every X days.

@ Filaha

You’ve clearly proven that you’de rather invalidate someone’s point instead of solidifying your own. And now that I’ve called out your antics multiple times, you call me a troll because you know continuing like you’ve been doing will be an uphill battle.

Our discussion is done.

yolo swaggins VS Filaha
A fight to the death!!!!

@Filaha
I think what yolo’s getting at is that the new system is more linear in the sense of choice you have for getting said laurels. Meaning you have to login (easier than before, true), if you don’t log in you just delay the laurels. Here, realistically the choice is “do i want to log in today?”
Before, the “choice” came from “do i want to do them?” (like does it fit in with my play style?) and “which do i want to do”. Those two questions aside from “do i want to log in today?”.

YES, it is much easier to get laurels via the new system than the old… since the old required you to do some work (adding in the choice of which “work” you want to do, if any at all), while the new system just needs you to login.

So, yeah, while the new system is technically better in terms of how “easy” and how many (at the end of month) laurels you get… It’s still less choice than the old.

Despite how little or funny you may view this point/reasoning, it’s still showing that there is now a little less choice than before.

Zero Day.2594:

yolo swaggins VS Filaha
A fight to the death!!!!

@Filaha
I think what yolo’s getting at is that the new system is more linear in the sense of choice you have for getting said laurels. Meaning you have to login (easier than before, true), if you don’t log in you just delay the laurels. Here, realistically the choice is “do i want to log in today?”
Before, the “choice” came from “do i want to do them?” (like does it fit in with my play style?) and “which do i want to do”. Those two questions aside from “do i want to log in today?”.

YES, it is much easier to get laurels via the new system than the old… since the old required you to do some work (adding in the choice of which “work” you want to do, if any at all), while the new system just needs you to login.

So, yeah, while the new system is technically better in terms of how “easy” and how many (at the end of month) laurels you get… It’s still less choice than the old.

Despite how little or funny you may view this point/reasoning, it’s still showing that there is now a little less choice than before.

I’m aware of that argument. It’s just a terrible argument because it limits its scope to a very specific choice.

Yes, there is no choice in how to get them. That is, however, entirely irrelevant.

Yes, there is only one method to get them, which is by logging in.

What matters is what this extends to, namely that once you have them, it doesn’t matter what you do with the rest of your playtime. Kill world bosses. Go to WvW. Go to PvP. Do fractals. Play the TP. Go caroling with your guild. Commit genocide on all the ambient bunnies. Throw a tea party with your minis. Run around Lion’s Arch naked and perform a mating dance towards all the Charr you see. Do all of the above. It doesn’t matter, because you already have your laurels.

It removes a choice that barely even counts as a choice (since, as people like to point out, you would have gotten your dailies and by extension your laurels by just running around doing events and killing things) in order to give you absolute freedom with your playtime and still get your laurels.

Yes, it removes the choice of “How do I want to get the laurel?”, but it replaces it with the far superior “Now that my laurels are guaranteed, how do I want to spend my playtime not worrying about it at all?”