(edited by kangaroo.8753)
Plause to programmers about orr
I agree, Orr is a battlefield and Zhaitan has an endless amount of soldiers at his disposal.
The area reflects the devastation of war pretty good. War is hell.
I’m sorry, but I don’t see how constant cc-spam equates to this glorified vision of “a big war” you people have got going for you. That’s the comeback I always hear when I criticize the stupid, stuuupid design of all the Risen in Orr.
Do elaborate, please. Indulge me.
I can do thirty Five-Dolyak Arm Curls.
Do you even lift, bro?
Do you even lift, bro?
You seen a war in a battlefield with no soldier, or 2 soldier? They are a million! And plus these are undead created by a dragon…
You seen a war in a battlefield with no soldier, or 2 soldier? They are a million! And plus these are undead created by a dragon…
Again, you’re not answering my question.
I can do thirty Five-Dolyak Arm Curls.
Do you even lift, bro?
Do you even lift, bro?
Ok, I do not know what you people who complain about the endless CC Spam are talking about. Do you try to run through everything to get to point to point or what? I seriously have never been CC spammed to death on 3 different characters through Orr (2 with complete maps).
Have I died? Yes, plenty but not because of CC spam, usually from taking on more than I could handle or trying to solo something I knew I shouldn’t have.
It’s pretty simple, try to wrap your head around it. Know your escape route and know your profession’s limits.
I guess I play in a different Orr than you.
I guess I play in a different Orr than you.
You probably don’t stick around for the events.
Like defending the camp at Penitent Waypoint.
You’ll have swarms of those anchor Risen that pull you, and swarms of those water Risen that knock you back, all in one huge swarm.
You’ll get pulled to them by the anchor dudes, then get knocked back by the water dudes.
You might as well have someone come into your room and take your keyboard away from you every 10 seconds.
I don’t mind the volume of enemies, I mind their design – as do many other people. Which is why Orr is so dead on most servers… no pun intended.
I can do thirty Five-Dolyak Arm Curls.
Do you even lift, bro?
Do you even lift, bro?
Ok, I do not know what you people who complain about the endless CC Spam are talking about. Do you try to run through everything to get to point to point or what? I seriously have never been CC spammed to death on 3 different characters through Orr (2 with complete maps).
Have I died? Yes, plenty but not because of CC spam, usually from taking on more than I could handle or trying to solo something I knew I shouldn’t have.
It’s pretty simple, try to wrap your head around it. Know your escape route and know your profession’s limits.
I guess I play in a different Orr than you.
When aggro more than a player can handle therefore chain of CC killed him, and they don’t realize it is their own fault by aggro so many foes… and blame the CC chain. I don’t have this problem and i did killed by CC chain sometimes but i accept i suck when it happens.
I guess I play in a different Orr than you.
You probably don’t stick around for the events.
Like defending the camp at Penitent Waypoint.
You’ll have swarms of those anchor Risen that pull you, and swarms of those water Risen that knock you back, all in one huge swarm.
You’ll get pulled to them by the anchor dudes, then get knocked back by the water dudes.
You might as well have someone come into your room and take your keyboard away from you every 10 seconds.
I don’t mind the volume of enemies, I mind their design – as do many other people. Which is why Orr is so dead on most servers… no pun intended.
These kind of event i usually quietly revive npc until they can get a hold of themselves. Sometime i can solo the whole event without a sweat, did you run straight into groups of foes and pray they ignore you and don’t CC because you are alone? I admit there are some waypoint is hard to reclaim by solo but that’s because it is intended to be a group event, why bother do it alone?
It is not a war without both side participating.
The Pact soldiers keep laying dead while every waypoint keep contested is not good for leveling.
I don’t mind if it is in cursed shore only, but it’s annoying in SoD and ML.
Maybe time to introduce event like wvw which npc commanders lead you to recapture towns.
I have (and still do) Pent and Shelter, but never alone. There is always someone there on my server (Tarnished Coast) pretty much anytime of day. There are NPCs who do assist to a point but if you are there alone, then it’s probably best to avoid.
But that’s a DE, not the whole of the map.
Design? Don’t think is a problem only about orr. Each zone in this game has almost the same enemies, a lack of variey is across all maps…Why you don’t complain about the fact that a grub or a worm is in every kind of map with a different name? Is the same, not a problem about orr only. Plus i am pleased that the fact that the risen try to grab you, and to slow you, and to harpoom you, YUP IS ANNOYNG but it is as it has to be in my pow, i can feel the hate in them, for me that i’m a living person.
“Maybe time to introduce event like wvw which npc commanders lead you to recapture towns.”
Yeah, and maybe is the time to introduce npc who free and complete the map for us, and laserbeam that kill all enemy across map instantly. Geez, is a MMORPG!!! We must do things, according to party, if not where is the difficulty? It became another map lime the other and people start complain about" oh wow orr is boring and not difficult" XD
(edited by kangaroo.8753)
I disagree, in what battlefield do the enemy soldiers just stand around, meandering like they have little else to do.
And don’t say, “but they’re zombies, haven’t you ever seen zombies before…”. Guild Wars zombies aren’t your run-of-the-mill zombies, they are all minions of Zhaitan. They have no will but his will, they are all connected to his thoughts and exist to achieve his goals.
Now don’t say, “but its behind enemy lines, they are reserve troops standing at the ready…”. With Orr under constant attack by the Pact, what sort of genius battle commander will have the brunt of his force just mill about? Obviously Zhaitan would have them mobilized and fighting desperately to not only take back Orr but also make a push for Fort Trinity. No wonder he can’t take over the camps or succeed at taking the fort, half of his minions are just standing all over the place.
On the one side you can see ArenaNet wanted Orr to reflect a desolate lost world that fell from glory due to a huge tragedy, while the forlorn undead try to pick up the pieces. Though on the other side they want it to embody the face of a vast army at the ready, doing the bidding of one of the most dangerous enemies Tyria has ever faced.
Problem is, you can’t have both, and it just makes the entire thing seem conflicted.
Orr was made for karmatrains, and it was made well.
It’s just that some people still don’t get that GW2 content isn’t something you rush through to get to your resource nodes of next level – it’s the game, and it’s great. Is it perfect ? No, only bacon is.
Send an Asura who knows math. Problem solved.
“I disagree, in what battlefield do the enemy soldiers just stand around, meandering like they have little else to do.” —> patrolling maybe?
They are not the zombie of the films ok, it was as an example to make you understand that the “grab you thing” works the same….but can’t it be that their goal or order is to stop you? Or attend to “kill everything” they seen move? Of course, in a part of orr there is nothing, so they has nothing to do, but the fact that every waypoint is contested means that zhaitarn give them order to get the pact camp, and they do it very well^^
“I disagree, in what battlefield do the enemy soldiers just stand around, meandering like they have little else to do.” —> patrolling maybe?
They are not the zombie of the films ok, it was as an example to make you understand that the “grab you thing” works the same….but can’t it be that their goal or order is to stop you? Or attend to “kill everything” they seen move? Of course, in a part of orr there is nothing, so they has nothing to do, but the fact that every waypoint is contested means that zhaitarn give them order to get the pact camp, and they do it very well^^
Patrols are organized, as in groups traveling with a goal. Having your troops stand all over the place isn’t very tactical, rather you’re spreading your forces thin, which would be a good way to loose. I’ve never heard of having your forces spread out in single fashion so you can catch stragglers, while the rest are off fighting important emplacements that actually have strategic value. Just saying it shows how little sense it makes. In war, whoever holds important positions win, not so much the one who can cover the most ground and can spot the scouts as they run past your spread out troops.
Also the waypoints are contested these days not in a sense of Zhaitan making his advance, but because fewer people are going to Orr. This isn’t a story driven reason, the reason is gameplay wise, so don’t confuse the two.
Yes, Zhaitan does attack the Pact camps and Fort Trinity, but meanwhile the rest of his army is spread all over the place. Like I said in the first paragraph, there is no strategic value in doing so. He had a lot more to gain if he would have focused his attacks with the greater majority of his troops to take the camps, to cut of Pact requisitions and reinforcements to starve the army further inside Orr. Like I said, patrols consist of small groups covering ground in an organized fashion as they scope out the land, patrolling isn’t half your army stationed across an entire landmass.
You know what, it now makes sense why Zhaitan lost, because he’s a freaking idiot.
(edited by Azjenco.9425)
True, i want zhaitarn makes his move during night and get all tyria, then he win and kill us all. Guy you got the point in military strategy, but the game is studied upon us, and it’s a game that must be played. Plus we are not in guerrilla, that’s their territory also….i mean, consider the flow of time, the land is big, is almost like risen are there in every place , because in those place they “rise up”, from someone who die there…zhaitarn is fighting in the sky (you can see him during play in cursed shore) meanwhile pact forces try desperately to take the step to go near him, and risen that are near those try to take them back, and they did it because we are not help pact defend it…that’s why contested waypoint is… Don’t get what you suggest. Imho for me is a fair compromise in what it should be and what a game has to be…
(edited by kangaroo.8753)
What I don’t get is why the personal story hypes up the risen to be “intelligent” (resorting to advanced battle tactics and mesmer magic) while in open world they act so stupid that even NPCs remark on their stupidity.
I would have loved to see epic battles where risen were more co-ordinated.
People who hate Orr do so because they hate to lose control of their character/being pulled – which isn’t the best mechanic imo.
I’d much prefer an harder zone with more Chill and Poison application than lose of control.
Risen are intelligent? What i saw from story is that they follow orders, they can fight as well alone, but following order master give them… Maybe i don’t remember something, please refresh my memory, when do you see intelligent and brilliant risen in story, with a duty of their own?
Red falcon that can be a point, but then must be like all other maps… That is their characterization, and much important, if you learn to dodge and using skill that hide you or implement evade you can escape them most of the time. Many complain but less ppl who know how to play…. At lvl80….it is presumed all know the base mechanics of the game….
True, i want zhaitarn makes his move during night and get all tyria, then he win and kill us all. Guy you got the point in military strategy, but the game is studied upon us, and it’s a game that must be played. Plus we are not in guerrilla, that’s their territory also….i mean, consider the flow of time, the land is big, is almost like risen are there in every place , because in those place they “rise up”, from someone who die there…zhaitarn is fighting in the sky (you can see him during play in cursed shore) meanwhile pact forces try desperately to take the step to go near him, and risen that are near those try to take them back, and they did it because we are not help pact defend it…that’s why contested waypoint is… Don’t get what you suggest. Imho for me is a fair compromise in what it should be and what a game has to be…
You can see the fighting above Malchor and that isn’t him, he is in Arah. You can see from the dragon fighting in the sky that it’s one of his champions, the same design as Tequatl, whom you fight in Sparkfly Fen.
According to the lore, Zhaitan doesn’t fight his battles personally he remains in Arah. The reason he can do so is because he can see everything from the perspective of his risen. This means he should have a complete tactical point of view of everything happening on every location where he has risen stationed. He is supposed to have an exact picture of Orr, and even beyond.
But you’re saying he needs to act stupid, or else he’ll kill us? Is that supposed to excuse the bad design of the Orr invasion? You said it yourself, this is their territory, so from a logical standpoint, Zhaitan will use expendable, fast troops, such as risen animals like the eagle. They can give him complete awareness of Orr. This will allow his other risen (the ones just standing around, your so-called scouts) to actually join the battle. What it sounds like you’re saying is, “we don’t stand a chance, so make him look stupid so we have a chance…” It’s the designers job to make us believe that Zhaitan is insanely powerful and that we — the good guys — are making a valiant push into his stronghold.
As for the Pact offensive. What offensive? They man camps and a few risen batter away at them during a few DEs. What I suggest is more, better organized DEs where risen battle to take the camps. Between these attempts the Pact should send out supplies to camps deeper inside orrian territories. If the supplies get to the next camp, then they can better defend against them. This makes the “advance” a lot more critical. As you can see, if one camp is lost, then it’ll starve the next camp and it will be weakened, and that will starve the next camp, and the next. Basically, players will need to make a conscious effort to fend Pact camps and supply caravans to ‘hold Orr’. Hope you understand what I mean now. There should be less risen where nothing is going on, and more battles happening around encampments and along the roads.
continued below
(edited by Azjenco.9425)
@kangaroo.8753
Now, there should be a presence of actual risen scouting (if you now understand what I mean by that) in between these camps. And this should be done by small groups of veterans or single champions. They will act as strong, challenging fights, from a story point because they are Zhaitans eyes, but from a gameplay aspect because they’ll drop good loot.
To accomplish actual, meaningful combat, the enemies need an overhaul of their abilities, less CC more challenge. I’ll rephrase something I posted elsewhere:
What it should be like is that each and every enemy unit should have different strengths and tactics when you fight them, and that is what will then make them dangerous, they’re own unique abilities, not the fact that they could stun and jump you.
Let me give an example, one enemy can have a strong range attack when you stand still, while another enemy might have escalating bleed stacks when you stay in melee too long as well as a charge ability, and another enemy can do ricochet shots that become dangerous when groups of players stand too close together. So, if you fight a group of these, basically you’ll need to keep moving, you’ll need to keep an eye on the melee guys who powerup their charge and also not stick too close in a group.
And then you have the veterans and champion who’ll have more abilities and trickier mechanics, almost like mini boss fights.
Like I said, Orr should be about constant events where you battle to help make the push, where you take and keep camps while they make an advance. It shouldn’t be about constant maul of the landscape because enemies everywhere are there just for the purpose of rooting you and keeping you constantly fighting, no.
It’s like ANet missed the point and tried to make evoke dangers in the wrong places. The draw of Orr should be the battles around encampments where constant battles and rewards against tough enemies remain the strong focus. Players should feel invested in the Pact making a push deeper into Orr, not stunting players who avoid these to travel the lands.
(edited by Azjenco.9425)
“You can see the fighting above Malchor and that isn’t him, he is in Arah. You can see from the dragon fighting in the sky that it’s one of his champions, the same design as Tequatl, whom you fight in Sparkfly Fen.”
Mmmm… you can see it above cursed shore, if you do the last story once at least, you’ll fight zhaitarn in the sky on a ship, after fight the 3 dragons servants before…if i didn’t saw wrong, that battle is in the sky meanwhile you walk around cs…but i can be wrong, correct if i am mistaken, and if so i’m sorry. Ok for the rest, but i have no problem if orr will be implemented better and much more accurate, i’m always positive about improvement^^ but i don’t say “he must be stupid so we can win”…. the story is all about the pact that encounter so many difficulty along all storyline, they are in evident inferiority during all the game, i bet they don’t want to controll orr, but to get close much possibile to zhaitarn, to kill it. Risen are thousand of millions, in my opinion they should get half tyria to defeat them all…event that moron of trehearne which is the supreme commander, is not a commander and discover the night before that in morning he should kill a dragon xdxdxd pact forces seems to me a bit undernumbered, and less powerful than forces, their attack and improve is little, they can only do what in orr they do. Remember one thing, we play mmo togheter, we are many ppl, but in story, you are the underdog of trehearne and you are alone with npcs…(Ok you can do mission with friend but story don’t recognize them)… So story is intended to make your story as a single player, not as a guild…. As like the mmo part of this game is only intended as merely as a play thing…. Is a single world, but played by many, that’s the most accurate i can go…so orr and other things are implemented in a way like if you were alone in the game, like if you were the only one with npcs, not as a world full of heroes….with a miriad of contraddiction,i admit.
(edited by kangaroo.8753)
wait.. so when 10 players perma CC one poor mob its ok? and when 10 mobs perma CC one player, it somehow becomes wrong? :o weirdos
wait.. so when 10 players perma CC one poor mob its ok? and when 10 mobs perma CC one player, it somehow becomes wrong? :o weirdosmobs have rights too
That’s a nice point you made there. Except one problem: Players can’t perma CC a mob. Player CC abilities haven’t even a sliver of the duration of mob CC abilities.
I can do thirty Five-Dolyak Arm Curls.
Do you even lift, bro?
Do you even lift, bro?
Putrifier cc lasts 2 seconds and they cc themselves for the same duration, spectral guards use an actual unmodified player skill to cc, what mob exactly has such insane cc that player skills only offer a ‘sliver’ of the cc time?
Putrifier cc lasts 2 seconds and they cc themselves for the same duration, spectral guards use an actual unmodified player skill to cc, what mob exactly has such insane cc that player skills only offer a ‘sliver’ of the cc time?
Well, Purifier’s Pull and Spectral Guard’s stun, and on top of that…
Risen Drake -> Knock Back
Tar Elemental -> Immobilizes
Risen Corrupter -> Chills
Risen Bull -> Knock Back
Risen Farmer -> Stuns
Risen Spider -> Pulls
Earth Elemental -> Cripples
Risen Subjugator -> Fears
Risen Fisher -> Stuns
Risen Acolyte -> Immobilizes
Risen Pirate -> Cripples
Risen Villager -> Immobilizes
Risen Despoiler -> Blinds, Dazes and Stuns
Risen Raptor -> Dazes wounded foes
Risen Wizard -> Blinds
Risen Giant -> Knock Down
Risen Bruiser -> Blinds
Risen Sea Trutle -> Knock Back
Risen Ravager -> Cripples
Risen Quaggan -> Stuns
Orrian Spectral Juggernaut Bow -> Cripples, Immobilizes
Orrian Spectral Juggernaut Hammer -> Knock Down
Just to place it into perspective.
What a lot of people don’t seem to understand is, this is terrible design. They just smacked CC on almost everything and somehow thought that’s fine, it’ll be a good challenge, but it’s bloody lazy. If we just sit back and say, “yeah, well, that’s the way it is” then we condone this as alright, and ANet will continue doing this in future content.
I’m willing to give ANet a lot more credit than that. I know if they’ll sit down, place some thought into it, then they can give the orrian enemies some more meaningful abilities that make you think as you fight them, and actually require some skills and tactic changes depending on what enemies you face. Packing stability and charging through does not make for meaningful, tactical combat.
“You can see the fighting above Malchor and that isn’t him, he is in Arah. You can see from the dragon fighting in the sky that it’s one of his champions, the same design as Tequatl, whom you fight in Sparkfly Fen.”
…. the story is all about the pact that encounter so many difficulty along all storyline, they are in evident inferiority during all the game, i bet they don’t want to controll orr, but to get close much possibile to zhaitarn, to kill it. Risen are thousand of millions, in my opinion they should get half tyria to defeat them all…event that moron of trehearne which is the supreme commander, is not a commander and discover the night before that in morning he should kill a dragon xdxdxd pact forces seems to me a bit undernumbered, and less powerful than forces, their attack and improve is little, they can only do what in orr they do. Remember one thing, we play mmo togheter..
No, that’s the champion you see fighting above Orr. If you’ll look at the shape of Zhaitan’s wings and it’s muddleheaded visage, you’ll see the dragon in the sky is not him but one of his champions.
Alright, you also shouldn’t mix story and open world in this instance.
The story missions are focus along the lines of you breaking Zhaitan’s hold, such as attacking the Eye to stunt his observation over Orr and killing the mouth so he can consume less magic to regain his power. The context of the story (i.e. small skirmishes to lessen the hold of Zhaitan) and the open world (i.e. clashes between the two armies) coexist with one another. What you’re achieving during the personal story happens along the sidelines, while the larger battle across Orr coincide with those events.
Same as when you attack Zhaitan, it’s not the entire army taking on him. No, the armies of Tyria and the risen are still fighting across Orr, while you and a small band of heroes make a push into Arah in an attempt to take Zhaitan down in his lair. And forget Trahearne, he’s the worst part of the story, and many will agree with me on that.
Like you said, we play an MMO together. That is why I’d like Orr to reach it’s full potential. There is so much they could still do with it, so much opportunity. If the enemies weren’t just there to stunt single players, but make actual events more challenging, and if events gave good rewards, then that would grant players some incentive to participate in these events. If enemies were more than furnishings in the orrian country side, but rather challenging veteran scout parties with worthwhile loot, then players would certainly team up to take these groups down.
But as it stands, players find it an annoyance because single players struggle crossing the countryside. As I stated, more meaningful events, more meaningful challenges and more meaningful rewards will make Orr a worthwhile experience.
“No, that’s the champion you see fighting above Orr. If you’ll look at the shape of Zhaitan’s wings and it’s muddleheaded visage, you’ll see the dragon in the sky is not him but one of his champions.” OK sorry my mistake^^
I agree on most you write, not with all….I just don’t sit back and say, "yeah, well, that’s the way it is” , i want them to improve it… at least i don’t find it NOW as an horrible experience mostly describe it, i like it, then if they make it better it’s ok for me.
“No, that’s the champion you see fighting above Orr. If you’ll look at the shape of Zhaitan’s wings and it’s muddleheaded visage, you’ll see the dragon in the sky is not him but one of his champions.” OK sorry my mistake^^
I agree on most you write, not with all….I just don’t sit back and say, "yeah, well, that’s the way it is” , i want them to improve it… at least i don’t find it NOW as an horrible experience mostly describe it, i like it, then if they make it better it’s ok for me.
Not to point you out specifically, but some players seem to feel that way. I’m glad you also want the game to improve. I love GW2, it’s a brilliant game, and I feel it will only grow so much better from here on.
I just wish more people would give suggestions on how and where they want the game to improve. How would ANet know if we don’t tell them where we feel the game needs improvements. I really don’t hate the game when I say what I dislike about Orr, I don’t really hate Orr either, but I do feel it’s the one place (Suncove aside) that can use the most improvement, and I think this can be the most mind-blowing zone in the entire game. We just need to tell them what we’d like to achieve that.
kangaroo I agree with your OP, I used to be scared of orr too, specially on my first 80 but now… Now I just pwn those noobs undead.
People just need to L2P
Orr is hell, welcome to hell.
Necromancer Lupicus Solo – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWkSkhmWiDU
Retired Until Expansion or Meaningful Content is Released.
Retired Until Expansion or Meaningful Content is Released.
kangaroo I agree with your OP, I used to be scared of orr too, specially on my first 80 but now… Now I just pwn those noobs undead.
People just need to L2P
Orr is hell, welcome to hell.
Orr is hell? Nah, more like, Orr is a leisurely day at the spa, which involves some annoying acupuncture.
Actually, there’s been a lot discussed in the thread since the OP, so maybe you need to L2R before dropping an L2P on the topic.
(edited by Azjenco.9425)
With this number of CC’s there is no sense of danger or impending doom. Its just tedious.
It would be better if they INCREASED the number of undead and then got rid of CC’s on these mobs altogether. As it is, it’s just a chore to have to adventure there.
Better yet, give the MOB’s there some real AI other than “attack nearest, spam CC and damage ability”.
If Anet was going for the whole zombie apocalypse vibe they failed badly. Those movies generate a sense of doom from having to escape a mass of dangerous mindless enemies. Never once have I seen in a zombie movie where the protagonist gets frozen in place and then beat senseless.
I agree with the previous poster that the number of CC’s are a lazy attempt at adding challenge to the area. They seriously need to rethink this.
Ok for post but…"
“Never once have I seen in a zombie movie where the protagonist gets frozen in place and then beat senseless.”
Is because this is not a movie and they are not properly zombies. They do like that, because someone want this as their comportament. Ok has to be changed if the most of ppl don’t like, but the motivation you prompt imho is not a good motivation xd
(edited by kangaroo.8753)
People who hate Orr do so because they hate to lose control of their character/being pulled – which isn’t the best mechanic imo.
I’d much prefer an harder zone with more Chill and Poison application than lose of control.
Those Ascalonians….Always hated Arah/Orr
1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.