Guild Wars 2

It seems as tho people need progression in order to play.
God forbid that you play for fun.

If a game needs progression in order to be fun, the game isn’t fun to begin with.
So if you need progression you are not having fun.

I will never understand this progression that people wants, because nobody, NOBODY cares what you do in games, so why aim for something that everybody else will get eventually? Why do you need progression, is it because you wanna feel like.. Special when you achieved that something that nobody cares about?

Why not just you know.. play for fun?
Or am i out of line here?

If you play for progression, it doesn’t matter how sad and lonely that sounds, why do YOU do it? Why waste time.. on wasting more time, to waste even more time.

Play for fun, or don’t play at all. I’m really trying to help you!

I find some progression is fun. So is farming for stuff (tradeskills or coin). I like something to focus on. A little frustration makes the rest of the game more rewarding. Wandering around aimless is boring.

Infinite progression in the form of gear treadmill is an illusionary mechanic used in obsolete MMOs to keep players believing they are getting better, so they keep paying subscription.

progression is part of the fun, but it has an inherent problem you just cannot solve. Either you make the end of the progession line unattainable which will put people off or the top of the scale is attainable which will cause progression players to lose interest once they achieved it. Progression players will always attain the maximum first and will always complain the loudest. Then you have to add new power related content, then adjust the game for balancing reason, then progression players reach the maximum again, then you add newer power related content… It is really a vicious cycle once you decide to go down the progression road.

I love just playing the game, exploring, destroying and everything else in this game! However, I like to always work towards a new piece of armour, or cool weapon, even more so now that I have started dungeons.

But I am in no rush to achieve these goals, because just playing to get these goals are just so fun anyway!

I remember a MMO developer once talking about the Skinner Box progression in most MMO`s today and pondered why MMO players felt the need to have ever lasting progression. He compared them to FPS games that get played for years because there fun ……that’s where MMO`s need to get to and GW2 takes us in that direction.

Personally I think combat needs to continue to evolve into a more tactical player skill focused system to give players that opportunity to really improve over time.

The progression players feel in FPS games are their own real world skills improving over time and testing that skill against other players makes them fun.

We need to take a step back from the table top progression systems MMO`s are modeled after and come up with a hybrid system that works player skill into the mix.

In RPGS, especially MMOs, fun IS progression. Once you’re not growing it’s just not any fun. If therse nothing to look forward to, it’s just a grind and most people don’t like grinds.

Thread closed:)

Progression and fun are the same thing for a large amount of the player base.

And for those who don’t think progression is important in games, imagine if every time you log in you had to start a new character because your old one was not saved for you. Would the game be as fun for you? If not then why should you only get progression at the start of the game and not the end?

Progression is a core feature of RPGs. Without progression we have a simple Action title. GW2 sold itself as an MMO*RPG* not an MMOAction game.
RPG progression goes as far back as PnP D&D and is not going to change from that. I see these threads pop up now and then and wonder why someone who doesn’t like “progression” is playing an RPG. It’s puzzling to me.

Players wanting a non-progression title would probably be happiest looking outside the RPG genre. Even in the MMO field, lots of Action, Racing, Shooters, etc are out there now. MMOs have a lot of market share now.

And Josher has it well said: Grind bad; Progression good.

RPG = Role playing game…
So where exactly does it say “Item progression needed” ?

People often mistake “Progression” with items or gear. That was never mentioned.

Progression can mean, wealth, stats, items (decor for player housing, guilds, etc) and yes, gear.

There’s a lot of ways Progression can be added to an RPG. When the progression dries up, content is gone. When the Progression is placed out of reach for much of the player base or is not tiered in a smooth “progressive state” complaints for no content pop up.

Gear Treadmill is not the only “Progression” out there; it’s just the most popular thanks to ickie WoW and MMOs before that.

Edit: I would like to add: A story line can also be “Progression” as it unfolds. As I said; lots of potential for “Progression” in RPGs and the best DMs/GMs know and understand that and play to that core feature.

The whoe reason i am sticking with this game is mainly for the fun,it has that feeling of the old time mmo’s, but i am a casual player that really never grouped with other players because I was not equiped well enough but this game opens the door for the major casual player and feel they can be part of the game without getting the best of everything and if the uber mmo player leave because of that then let it be then we will be left with a community who cares about the hunt and not the gear

What is understood as progression isnt really progression at all in my opinion. I mean everything is relative and its that relativity that ultimately counts. Gear treadmills arent about getting more powerful, you never really get more powerful, its all about unlocking content under the guise of getting more powerful.

I mean so you repeat Dungeon A to get Gear set 1, once you get Gear set 1 you can proceed to Dungeon B. Do you walk over Dungeon B with ease cause now you have Gear set 1? not at all Dungeon B is as difficult as dungeon A was without Gear set 1 and the cycle repeats. So at the end of the day if you look at it objectively (in my opinion at least, am not claiming to be all knowing) what you’re really getting is the cosmetic look of whatever gear you got and the next dungeon.

In guild wars too the cosmetic look part is in the form of progression, you’ll need to do some work on that but all content is for you to choose from. But for some people it seems that unless its locked and they need to work in order to unlock it some way its like it doesnt exist! I dont understand this part to be honest!

WasAGuest.4973:

People often mistake “Progression” with items or gear. That was never mentioned.

Progression can mean, wealth, stats, items (decor for player housing, guilds, etc) and yes, gear.

There’s a lot of ways Progression can be added to an RPG. When the progression dries up, content is gone. When the Progression is placed out of reach for much of the player base or is not tiered in a smooth “progressive state” complaints for no content pop up.

Gear Treadmill is not the only “Progression” out there; it’s just the most popular thanks to ickie WoW and MMOs before that.

Edit: I would like to add: A story line can also be “Progression” as it unfolds. As I said; lots of potential for “Progression” in RPGs and the best DMs/GMs know and understand that and play to that core feature.

Yes, that’s what I understood as progression as well but when you hold debates like this then it’s often not clear to which school of thought people belong to when talking about progression. So there’s always this cacophony where everyone is talking about progression but not everyone understands progression the same way.

I don’t think this game is suited for classical gear treadmills due its non-trinity structure anyway there’s already a game which does that better and I think the OP meant to say that if you need gear treadmills to to have fun then you’re not having fun which is the reflection of “I only log on to play for raids and log off after”.

I can’t talk for myself here because I am still busy enough with the game levelling characters but I have played enough MMOs and RPGs to understand that WoW did not invent progression in RPGs.

Galen Grey.4709:

What is understood as progression isnt really progression at all in my opinion. I mean everything is relative and its that relativity that ultimately counts. Gear treadmills arent about getting more powerful, you never really get more powerful, its all about unlocking content under the guise of getting more powerful.

I mean so you repeat Dungeon A to get Gear set 1, once you get Gear set 1 you can proceed to Dungeon B. Do you walk over Dungeon B with ease cause now you have Gear set 1? not at all Dungeon B is as difficult as dungeon A was without Gear set 1 and the cycle repeats. So at the end of the day if you look at it objectively (in my opinion at least, am not claiming to be all knowing) what you’re really getting is the cosmetic look of whatever gear you got and the next dungeon.

In guild wars too the cosmetic look part is in the form of progression, you’ll need to do some work on that but all content is for you to choose from. But for some people it seems that unless its locked and they need to work in order to unlock it some way its like it doesnt exist! I dont understand this part to be honest!

Exactly. It’s all an illusion of growth. It’s not “real”, it’s a game. It seems silly of me to say that; but it’s true.

Trace back to PnP D&D. (gear progression) We got the +3 sword of doom so we could take on the tougher challenges.
(story and power progression) We claimed a keep and raised taxes on the people in the area so we could deal with the army heading to raze the area. It’s no different, and it will not change within the RPG genre. Progression is a core feature within the RPG genre.

If we even look at sub-genres of RPGs (Action RPGs or Strategy RPGs) they all have one thing in common. Progression. Either through stats, items, gear or powers. Progression is always there.

By simply removing RPG we remove the need for progression and we can have a simple Action title.

Modern MMO are trying to meld genres; not completely change them. You can’t completely remove Progression or you no longer have an RPG. They are simply taking the better parts of several genres and smashing them together. Some areas have some jagged edges and others are smoother. It’s how the genres work together in the end that makes all the difference.

GW2 has some progression issues I’ll admit; but I have faith they will tune that out in time. It’s action is fairly well done though and one of the reasons I keep playing it.

Ravenblade.7685:

WasAGuest.4973:

People often mistake “Progression” with items or gear. That was never mentioned.

Progression can mean, wealth, stats, items (decor for player housing, guilds, etc) and yes, gear.

There’s a lot of ways Progression can be added to an RPG. When the progression dries up, content is gone. When the Progression is placed out of reach for much of the player base or is not tiered in a smooth “progressive state” complaints for no content pop up.

Gear Treadmill is not the only “Progression” out there; it’s just the most popular thanks to ickie WoW and MMOs before that.

Edit: I would like to add: A story line can also be “Progression” as it unfolds. As I said; lots of potential for “Progression” in RPGs and the best DMs/GMs know and understand that and play to that core feature.

Yes, that’s what I understood as progression as well but when you hold debates like this then it’s often not clear to which school of thought people belong to when talking about progression. So there’s always this cacophony where everyone is talking about progression but not everyone understands progression the same way.

I don’t think this game is suited for classical gear treadmills due its non-trinity structure anyway there’s already a game which does that better and I think the OP meant to say that if you need gear treadmills to to have fun then you’re not having fun which is the reflection of “I only log on to play for raids and log off after”.

I can’t talk for myself here because I am still busy enough with the game levelling characters but I have played enough MMOs and RPGs to understand that WoW did not invent progression in RPGs.

Completely agree.

The “gear treadmill” really doesn’t fit here very well at all. However, there’s a lot of areas Progression can and will work perfectly within GW2.

And couldn’t edit my last post. /pout

I play mostly for fun, although progression can be part of the part. But to me progression is more of a secondary kind of fun, like a nice extra on top of the main part what’s fun for me.
I love to do dungeons, because they’re the high-end PvE content, and challenge my character in a way the open world PvE can’t offer me. It’s also nice to team up with people and have some teamwork going on. That’s what enjoyable to me. The tokens and silver at the end is just a nice extra on top of that.

You are right on bro, but you are talking to a bunch of progression junkies who seek out rewards like dogs so don’t expect a ton of support in this forum.

Both, and I enjoy making vids.

“I like brunnetes, everyone who likes blondes is obviously doing it wrong and I’m obviously superior for doing so as well.”

Your logic and why you are wrong in a nut-shell.

I play for fun. My fun is in the form of exploring. It is great when I find a vista and see the entire cut-scene. That was an excellent touch to the game.

fun and progression should be in harmony at online games, made to live long and to provide hundreds of hours of gameplay

just progression ---> play korean grind mmorpgs
just fun ---> play casual games on your iphone/android-phone
both ---> idk...never played any game which gave me both...GW2 is close to it, though

GW2 leveling is way too fast to notice any progression other than your personal story, which ends at level 80...

but hey, i can just make another character and play their storyline

While I understand where the OP is coming from, you have to understand that “fun” is a relative concept.

My best friend loves to go to clubs every weekend, she finds that fun. I’m not much of a clubbing person, I rather like playing video games, she finds that quite boring. Even though she likes clubbing and I don’t, I can be open minded enough to see what she finds fun in clubbing. She is also open minded enough to see what I find fun in video games.

An easier example yet… I don’t like first person shooters, does that mean they are not fun? Yes, they are not fun, for ME, but they are fun for thousands of gamers. And I can see what they find fun in it… the competition, the adrenaline rush when competing against other players, etc… but I don’t find that fun. Every now and then maybe I could play one at a friend’s house, but I would never buy a FPS game.

For some people (like me) progression IS fun. We like having something to work for, a defined path ahead of us with a reward at the end to strive for. It’s just how we are.

It doesn’t matter if we are getting stronger from whatever reward we get in the end and it’s just an “illusion” because “we’re just getting that to get to the next dungeon/raid which is going to be just as hard as the previous one even with the reward we just got”. When we get to that dungeon/raid, we go in it because we want the even better reward (be it gear, skills, achievements, story, whatever) that it has to offer. We “need” something to work towards and strive for or we lose interest in the game.

Usually “progressionists” (lol just made that up) can understand why some people do not need progression, but a lot of people have a hard time understanding why we DO need it.

A “progressionist” is usually a player that once he finishes a game, he never goes back to it, I know I certainly don’t, I can count the games I have actually replayed in my life in just one hand, and I’ve been gaming for 20 years. It’s not that we didn’t have fun playing the game, we finished it, got all there was out of it, and that’s it, we got tired of it.

You could say that we get tired or bored more easily that non “progressionists”. That doesn’t mean we are wrong and that we should “go play game name here”. This is an MMORPG, not an MMOFPS or MMO action game, and RPGs have always had more in terms of progression than any other game, be it more story, more levels, more gear, more skills, etc. etc. The devs understand this, which is why we get tokens out of dungeons to buy armor skins and weapons, legendaries to work towards etc….if it was just “for fun”, and I use the term loosely, we wouldn’t have any of that, just going through the dungeon would be it, but they understand fun is relative and are trying to please a wide variety of gamers.

Anyway, sorry for making such a long post, it doesn’t help that English is not my main language, but I felt I had to do it since a lot of people seem to misunderstand “progressionists” and I’ve been seeing the “you should just play for fun!!!” line thrown around way too often, and frankly, I am getting a bit tired of it.

Fun is relative, it’s not that we don’t find the game fun, doing dungeons, PvP, WvW, whatever, you name it. It’s that we need a goal to strive for, we are very goal oriented, if we don’t have that, the game is not as much fun for us.

-Edited for grammatical errors

I dont understand why all the “fun” casual players want everything given to them on a plater.
Its no wonder why GW2 “ends” so fast, everything is given out to everyone.

Why not just have NPCS giving out everything for free?

Why do you care if there is a treadmill or not? its not like your going to use the items you get from there anyways becouse your busy looking at flowers or videos of vistas.

Treadmill games survive much longer then " i wear purty armor" games.
Theres only a couple of exeptions, and those games have some treadmill in them other then gear. Even GW1 has more character progression and treadmills.

I think the only ones that complain about treadmills are the ones that dont have time to do the content where you get them.
Im sorry but that is how it has to be, if you go to work, you wont get paid as much if you work 10 hours as the guy working 20 hours a week.

Games like DaoC, EQ, WoW, Eve etc wouldnt have survived if there werent goals in the game that kept on advancing your character.

It doesnt matter if the gear becomes obsolete in the next expansion, its about the achievement of completing the set, progressing your character. Its even mroe rewarding if you do it with your friends/guild, beating down that hard boss you been working on for months.
Getting new stuff to do in an expansion is only a good thing for us maximisers, its mean we can progress our characer EVEN more.

Progression is fun. This topic offers a false choice.

Selo.1250:

I dont understand why all the “fun” casual players want everything given to them on a plater.
Its no wonder why GW2 “ends” so fast, everything is given out to everyone.

Why not just have NPCS giving out everything for free?

Take the “casual” debate back to the Blizzard forums and let it die there. It’s an idea that gets more and more outdated with each new game. In terms of game design, where developers have (in a total facepalm moment; really, how many WoW clones had to fail before they figured this out?) realized that restricting access to the majority of your game’s content to 5% of the playerbase does not result in good sales. Also in terms of player demographics, gamers are increasingly of the college-graduate age, with disposable income and limited time, and will soon become the dominant market. Especially in the PC game market, since consoles generally don’t offer the depth or customization that this older generation of gamers wants.

Regardless, putting down other players in order to justify something that benefits yourself is something that should be left to politicians and lawyers.

FUN = Subjective.

I find fun in systems that are “rewarding”.. not just in the sense of gear.. but in challenge and re-playability.

IE: I can sit for hours playing League of Legends..

With that said however, I’ve stopped playing GW2 for over a week ago.. and I’m not feeling the “urge” to start it up again.

It took me a vacation and 2 weeks of backed up work before I felt that way about League of Legends (I don’t play anymore, but had to fight the “urge” to say “screw my work!.. I’m gonna play!”).

For me, it comes down to the lack of challenge in GW2 as well as never feeling like my presence in the world actually matters.

IE: Events scale in HP/DMG but not tactics.. thus it’s just a spamfest ~ which gets boring after just a few of them.

I’ve made several topics on fixing this.. you can find the big one here::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Combat-Dynamic-Events-what-s-the-point-if-they-re-easy-mode/page/1

As it stands.. I’ve got two lv80 Characters ~ a Necro and an Elementalist.
Along with 6 professions at lv400 ~

Yet, neither of my characters have 100% map completion nor have progressed beyond lv26 in their personal stories.

Do I care?… nope!

And again, this is coming from someone that LOVES to play repetitive games like League of Legends and Pokemon (gotta catch’em all).

On my Xbox I even hunt down every achievement I can find.. spending upwards of 200 hours on Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.

But…. I just can’t get into GW2. =/

Why?.. cause it’s just not “fun” to me.. due to not only “progression” but also combat, world events and content in general.

Does that mean I don’t like GW2?.. nope!

It just means, I don’t find it “fun”.

Guess that’s the perk of B2P ~ can always come back.. but personally, if I left in the first place without completing all the content it currently has.. why should I care if more of the same is added?

~ Just my 2 cents ~

People have been conditioned to believe bars and numbers going up is fun. It’s sad really.

They should probably be playing this instead: http://progressquest.com/

And get the “go back to wow” stuff out of any forums.
Do you know if i played it or not? i didnt.

Your also wrong in what kind of age the playerbase is now and then.
The majority of mmo players have always been over 25 with jobs. INfact, its more likely its decreasing as mmo become more mainstream.
Also GW2 is B2P, so any underage player can get it and dont have to use their parent creditcard.
Also theres much more then 5% of the playerbase doing the harder content. Its just a number the game you bash on so much, have thrown out but arent correct.
Ive played mmos since Meridian, and in all games that have had raiding, around 20%+ are raiding.
Its to bad that the rest cant get it, but its those players that drives the game forward.

3 types of players.

The casuals that dont raid
The Middle group that dont have that much time but raids and do harder content when they can
And the treadmill players that play every aspect of the game and like character progression and doing hard content with other players.

The last group will quit if there arent enough content for them.
The middle group will be there for a while but since they also want to do raiding and harder content but dont have time to figure it out, theyll leave soon aswell becouse theres noone left to take them through the content.
Left you have the casuals, but their not the most loyal of players, and when they have explored everything, they will leave aswell for another game.

If you have treadmill games, all of them will stay, atleast for a longer time. The casuals will whine alot about not beeing able to get the gear they have no use for anyways, but theyll find other stuff to do.

I myself want both things, i want treadmill and characterprogression, but i also want stuff to do around that. “minigames” achievements, good crafting system etc

To me, it looks like you havent played many mmos before WoW, am i right?

Character progression players are a huge majority over the “get it all for free” players.

Everytime you do an event or pick up loot in GW2 you think, WTF am i doing this for? its not like im gona use it for anything

Selo.1250:

…3 types of players…

…“get it all for free” players…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man