Guild Wars 2

With the introduction of dps meter’s it is apparent that player versatility is narrowing, i.e. if you see a thief running dual pistols you immediately know they bring little to the table whatever game mode they are playing (pve/wvw/pvp).

I personally like dps meters though the gap between meta and “play the way you like” is a substantially large gap (not because people run nomads vs berserkers) it is simply that some weapon sets perform subpar.

In a perfect world I would like to see that, head to head each weapon set and weapon combination is viable either due to direct damage output, additional utility, cc, etc…

Angelweave.1856:

With the introduction of dps meter’s it is apparent that player versatility is narrowing, i.e. if you see a thief running dual pistols you immediately know they bring little to the table whatever game mode they are playing (pve/wvw/pvp).

I personally like dps meters though the gap between meta and “play the way you like” is a substantially large gap (not because people run nomads vs berserkers) it is simply that some weapon sets perform subpar.

In a perfect world I would like to see that, head to head each weapon set and weapon combination is viable either due to direct damage output, additional utility, cc, etc…

There are tons of “viable” builds; there are fewer “optimum” builds. I don’t expect that to ever change, because part of what makes those builds “optimum” is how they are played — better players will always be able to get more out of some builds than most people.

People tend to gravitate to builds posted on websites that are benchmarked with high numbers; that doesn’t mean that everyone (or even most) will be able to reach those numbers. We also don’t know what people are running “in the wild” — there was a dev comment (on Reddit iirc) suggesting that we have some misleading impressions about what people are using.

In short: the content allows for a lot more “viable” variations than build sites suggest, folks running posted builds don’t always get the high numbers, and we don’t really know what’s commonly run. In other words: there’s already a lot of variability.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Angelweave.1856:

With the introduction of dps meter’s it is apparent that player versatility is narrowing, i.e. if you see a thief running dual pistols you immediately know they bring little to the table whatever game mode they are playing (pve/wvw/pvp).

I personally like dps meters though the gap between meta and “play the way you like” is a substantially large gap (not because people run nomads vs berserkers) it is simply that some weapon sets perform subpar.

In a perfect world I would like to see that, head to head each weapon set and weapon combination is viable either due to direct damage output, additional utility, cc, etc…

There are tons of “viable” builds; there are fewer “optimum” builds. I don’t expect that to ever change, because part of what makes those builds “optimum” is how they are played — better players will always be able to get more out of some builds than most people.

People tend to gravitate to builds posted on websites that are benchmarked with high numbers; that doesn’t mean that everyone (or even most) will be able to reach those numbers. We also don’t know what people are running “in the wild” — there was a dev comment (on Reddit iirc) suggesting that we have some misleading impressions about what people are using.

In short: the content allows for a lot more “viable” variations than build sites suggest, folks running posted builds don’t always get the high numbers, and we don’t really know what’s commonly run. In other words: there’s already a lot of variability.

While, yes there may be more viability to non-meta builds than is commonly accepted… but the problem is when you go to do end-game group content, if you arn’t running a meta build you will in most cases be kicked from groups or harassed about it until you switch or leave.

“Play the way you like” has been completely beaten into the ground when it comes to group content. It’s now “play how we say or get out”… I wish I could say this mentality is purely from the use of DPS meters… but sadly, this is something that was prevalent in GW1 even. However, in GW1, unlike here, people were more receptive of being proven wrong.

I remember countless times on my GW1 Elementalist (Mae Ignatious) getting harassed by groups because I wouldn’t run the expected meta builds for Elementalists, and many times I’d convince them to give me a chance to prove my build, and every time I’d end up practically carrying the group. It wasn’t because my build was particularly overpowered, I just had a better understanding of how to synergise powers in my build with the way I play. I took what people kept calling a “terribly weak build” and turned it into a nearly unkillable powerhouse. On the very rare occasions that I did any sort of PvP, I was completely unkillable by anyone short of a Hex Mesmer, SS Necro, or an Assassin that managed to catch me off guard.

Here however, even though I can make builds that are very much just like my old GW1 builds, extremely powerful in my hands but viewed as “weak” to most… groups are unwilling to accept players who don’t subscribe to the meta. And THAT part of the mentality is most certainly due to DPS meters… The meta builds are designed to push for the absolute highest numbers… while other builds may be viable and in actual practice could potentially pull higher consistent numbers, the perception that the meta build “is capable of doing much better” just blinds people to variation. Unless I go against my principles and install a DPS meter and record my output to prove “my build is every bit as viable, if not better, than the stupid meta” I will be kicked from the vast majority of groups.

DPS meters have only confirmed what was already taking place in PvE meta play. Exclusion of non-meta builds has been a thing in this game since meta play first developed. The existence of meters has not in any way increased exclusion behavior. In fact, the existence of a meter gives someone the opportunity to prove their non-meta build is competitive, or perhaps even better.

IndigoSundown.5419:

DPS meters have only confirmed what was already taking place in PvE meta play. Exclusion of non-meta builds has been a thing in this game since meta play first developed. The existence of meters has not in any way increased exclusion behavior. In fact, the existence of a meter gives someone the opportunity to prove their non-meta build is competitive, or perhaps even better.

Actually the existence of meters HAS increased the exclusion behavior… and it only gives you the opportunity to prove your non-meta build if you’re willing to use a meter yourself and record the results. Without prior proof, most groups now won’t give you a chance if your not Meta… before meters were “acceptable” groups were more willing to accept non-meta builds and allow people to prove themselves. It wasn’t even uncommon for some groups to secretly use meters when they were still a potential ban risk. At that time, meter using groups were more open to accept non-meta builds out of fear that rejecting them outright might put them at risk of being banned for use of 3rd-party programs…

With meters being made acceptable, these groups have no fear of ban, and as a result reject anyone who’s not meta.

@Panda: How do you know you are a super hero among normal heros in this game? When you are in a party, how do you know how valuable you are? Even with dps meter, you only see your own damage. When I started using one, it gave me no valuable information until I got into fractal parties with people who installed it too, so the dps is shared over the server. Only then I could see how other Daredevil builds do and I’m sure many people share my first thought: “I am not as good as I thought I am.”

To be honest, your bragging here about your super powers doesn’t sound convincing, and I strongly doubt that as an unexperienced PvP player (“on very rare occasions”), you were “completely unkillable”. Your post reminds me on that satirical one in the Raid forum:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Moral-problems-with-raiders/first#post6605553

especially “…and every time I’d end up practically carrying the group.”

I believe you are not as good as you think you are, because you have no comparison to understand how good others are.

You could get yourself meta armor and weapons and join those groups that require it. Then you play the encounter for a couple of minutes before you switch to your preferred gear. If nobody notices and the group gets even better afterwards, you can let them know what you have done. Good luck!

There is a very simple reason why people hate meters. It hurts to have a bad feeling about your own underperformance being proven to you by accurate numbers and statistics.
It hurts even more to have your mind blown if you didn’t even realize you were underperforming or to know that other player will see all of that information as well.

We sometimes forget how much has changed over the years. Some still remember the ancient MMORPGs or at least the old ones like Vanilla WoW.
Everyone was doing their own thing back then. Nobody cared about your build or your spec. The understanding that there is an optimal build for almost any situation and how much of an impact min-maxing can have had to actually develope over time.
But we also tend to forget how much we struggled with some content and how much easier it would have been with an effective Meta and all of the tools which are avaible to us now.

DPS meters did not cause any less build diversity or start the whole META thing.
Such nonesense. A Meta developed right from the start just like it does with any modern MMORPG. It also changed over time due to balancing, content buffs and nerfs, flavour of the month builds and other reasons.
Funny enough, we were running stuff like 4war+1mes in Cof1 years ago. A DPS meter might have caused us to realize the worth of classes like elementalist a lot quicker than we did. All though, the balance was certainly leaning towards the useage of multiple warriors per group back then.

EDIT: Sorry wall of text incoming

I hate to be that guy but you do know that the meter is just an improvement in measurement, a tool and nothing more. Before it wasn’t necessarily that they were more welcoming, they just had crappy metrics to go by so people could be carried without realising it/who it was.

Panda.1967:

Actually the existence of meters HAS increased the exclusion behavior… and it only gives you the opportunity to prove your non-meta build if you’re willing to use a meter yourself and record the results. Without prior proof, most groups now won’t give you a chance if your not Meta… before meters were “acceptable” groups were more willing to accept non-meta builds and allow people to prove themselves. It wasn’t even uncommon for some groups to secretly use meters when they were still a potential ban risk. At that time, meter using groups were more open to accept non-meta builds out of fear that rejecting them outright might put them at risk of being banned for use of 3rd-party programs…

With meters being made acceptable, these groups have no fear of ban, and as a result reject anyone who’s not meta.

Meters don’t tell your build. They measure your damage and yóur buffs. Everyone with a bit of class understanding and a good eye can tell most of your traits when they see you infight and some things of your build even outfight.
Weapons for example, one of the more importantparts of a build. You can see atleast one set the whole time. If you see a warrior with hammer you might consider to kick him if he does not exchange that weapon for something else. Some utility and traits also show. I’ve seen “dps” heralds with Soothing Bastion. They sometimes refused to take an obviously supirior trait (dpswise) so they got kicked. No meters involved.
Same thing with signets.
Actually dps meters help people with less LI etc. to get into some groups. How often have i seen people with <50 LI joining a group requiring >150 LI and asking if they can stay. Some commanders give them a try to prove themselves while looking at their behavior in terms of mechanics and their dps. Often enough they were accepted for the rest of the run.

Faaris.8013:

@Panda: How do you know you are a super hero among normal heros in this game? When you are in a party, how do you know how valuable you are? Even with dps meter, you only see your own damage. When I started using one, it gave me no valuable information until I got into fractal parties with people who installed it too, so the dps is shared over the server. Only then I could see how other Daredevil builds do and I’m sure many people share my first thought: “I am not as good as I thought I am.”

To be honest, your bragging here about your super powers doesn’t sound convincing, and I strongly doubt that as an unexperienced PvP player (“on very rare occasions”), you were “completely unkillable”. Your post reminds me on that satirical one in the Raid forum:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Moral-problems-with-raiders/first#post6605553

especially “…and every time I’d end up practically carrying the group.”

I believe you are not as good as you think you are, because you have no comparison to understand how good others are.

You could get yourself meta armor and weapons and join those groups that require it. Then you play the encounter for a couple of minutes before you switch to your preferred gear. If nobody notices and the group gets even better afterwards, you can let them know what you have done. Good luck!

my comments about “practically carrying groups” were in regards to GW1, where if you find yourself as the only one in the group that doesn’t die, and has to solo nearly half of every mission, then yes you “carried the group”. I ended up always running around with a hard rez just so I could bring the rest of the group back after people died. I actually had one group where afterwards, the leader admitted to overpulling just to try and get me to die… he failed.

Now, do I believe myself to be some sort of super builder? No. I build to suit my personal playstyle and preferences. What works for me won’t work for everyone, and I’m perfectly aware of that. Are my builds the best of the best? I doubt it, and quite honestly I don’t kittening care. I play the builds I enjoy playing, so kittening what if they arn’t the absolute top tier damage. Do I use meters? HELL KITTENING NO! and I never will. I don’t need some meter to tell me how well I performed. All I need to know I can gauge with my own eyes. How often did I die? How quickly did the boss die? How much time did I and my allies spend at low health? Were my efforts impactful? Did I perform my role in the party? All very easy things to decipher without a meter.

Also, meters are detrimental to the game as a whole when you stop to look at the global impact. Sure they give you a more accurate metric to gauge power by… but that accuracy is actually contributing to a new problem. This accuracy allows min-maxers to more effectively create overpowered builds, these builds become the new meta, and as such become wide spread to the point of being “the norm”. As a result the devs respond in one of two ways. One: they overnerf things to bring power levels down or… Two: they release new content balanced around a higher power level. As more time passes we experience more and more power creep that becomes exponentially more apparent as the min-maxers modify the meta with newer even more overpowered gear and abilities.

Ever since meters have become acceptable in GW2 I’ve found myself doing more and more solo because of increased toxicity from people running group content. Something as minor and insignificant as being 1% under the “desired DPS/uptime/HPS” etc… has been enough to cause many to claim someone as a “garbage player”. I’ve seen it done to others and even been on the receiving end of it before myself. So if I seem excessively hostile when it comes to meters, I’m sorry but this hostility has been warranted. Even worse is when people claim to “need” a certain level of DPS to complete content that can actually be completed quite efficiently with a lower amount. I’ve seen people complain over a run taking a mere 2 minutes longer than they wanted.

Meters have potential to be used as just tools, but it’s been shown time and time again, in every single MMO that’s allowed them, that they will be used for abuse. Be it abuse of mechanics, abuse of power, or abuse against other players. It happens every day. People use them to find that one perfect combination that does way too much damage. People use them to judge other’s worth and prevent them from progressing. People use them to berate and attack others for being even slightly below their expectations.

Angelweave.1856:

With the introduction of dps meter’s it is apparent that player versatility is narrowing, i.e. if you see a thief running dual pistols you immediately know they bring little to the table whatever game mode they are playing (pve/wvw/pvp).

I disagree. You can judge a bad build by just knowing the game. I would guess most of the people running dps meters already are familiar enough with it to make said judgement. Also people in general are now more tolerant toward different classes/builds filling in certain roles, especially dps roles. Partially due to the balance changes and partially due to dps meters. It’s hard to argue build X is better when you see the hard numbers and the player clearly performs worse on it.

Angelweave.1856:

With the introduction of dps meter’s it is apparent that player versatility is narrowing, i.e. if you see a thief running dual pistols you immediately know they bring little to the table whatever game mode they are playing (pve/wvw/pvp).

I personally like dps meters though the gap between meta and “play the way you like” is a substantially large gap (not because people run nomads vs berserkers) it is simply that some weapon sets perform subpar.

In a perfect world I would like to see that, head to head each weapon set and weapon combination is viable either due to direct damage output, additional utility, cc, etc…

And this is why I dislike players like you. You know all. DPS meters rule and you want everyone to play a cookie-cutter build to max DPS to your standards. I play a power staff Thief build and MOSTLY P/P secondary in both WvW 1st and PvE 2nd. I can take someone down fairly quickly. BUT I know also when to run and who not to take on 1v1 and then go to forums and ask for nerfs because I suck against a certain build? There is a better build out there but It is not my playstlyle and to want to force it on me so I can be part of your group…squad…guild or what have you….nah…have fun with that.

This game is a play-as-you-like and because they have kept out the hundreds addons that bring out the elitests is why I love this game.

With that out of the way do I just go out build a toon and smash buttons. By no means. My thief I think is the 4th one I have run to 80. I deleted the others because of the lack of DPS and frustration until I realized I was doing it all wrong. One day in WvW another thief reached out to me…told me how bad I was. I could of blocked him but he PM’d me and asked if I wanted help. That was better than ANY DPS meter or YouTube video. I took his advice and now I die less and I take out more. Not because of a meter and not even close to a meta build but because someone wasn’t a kitten and now I spend most of my time on it because 1. I have fun 2. Nothing like taking out a cookie cutter DPS meter build.

My advice… try to have fun in the game after all that’s all it is. As an elitest you will not go far.

Panda.1967:

I’ve seen people complain over a run taking a mere 2 minutes longer than they wanted.

Molten Boss Fractal Level 40 farm? :P

btw, as “Illconceived Was Na” wrote, we have quite a skewed perception of what players actually use. I guess the vast majority plays in rare and exotic armor, exotic weapons and green and yellow trinkets. I don’t like to say that because it’s a phrase that’s often used to just shove issues aside, but: create your own group, with like minded people, and enjoy encounters. Ignore the minority that wants to play safe by using tested and proven setups. I’m totally for experimenting. The problem I noticed is that most players don’t have the time, patience or grit to experiment. I would even join a random pug for challenge mode Nightmare fractal, and it wouldn’t bother me at all if we got wiped a dozen times. I think everyone in the group would learn something. I regret a bit not having started GW earlier. I would have loved to be among those who had to figure out fractals and raids by trial and error and failing a lot. That would only be possible now if you moved over with your gaming group from another game to GW2 and ignored everything on the Internet about best practices.

Unfortunately, in pugs, when you get wiped three times, the group breaks up. It’s sad because it ends before it can get better. People then try to join a group where they can be carried by others.

Just be honest and don’t join groups which want you to be something you are not. If a group want a pug group to finish challenge mote nightmare fractal with zero downs and under 25m, then bringing anything that fails either two requirement is dishonest. Meta build requirement and DPS meters are just proxies for such requirements. They also allow groups to pinpoint problems to player mistakes rather than build issues. Missing a dodge is acceptable and hopefully a problem that get fixed during the run. Bringing a broken build isn’t fixable.

Panda.1967:

IndigoSundown.5419:

DPS meters have only confirmed what was already taking place in PvE meta play. Exclusion of non-meta builds has been a thing in this game since meta play first developed. The existence of meters has not in any way increased exclusion behavior. In fact, the existence of a meter gives someone the opportunity to prove their non-meta build is competitive, or perhaps even better.

Actually the existence of meters HAS increased the exclusion behavior… and it only gives you the opportunity to prove your non-meta build if you’re willing to use a meter yourself and record the results. Without prior proof, most groups now won’t give you a chance if your not Meta… before meters were “acceptable” groups were more willing to accept non-meta builds and allow people to prove themselves. It wasn’t even uncommon for some groups to secretly use meters when they were still a potential ban risk. At that time, meter using groups were more open to accept non-meta builds out of fear that rejecting them outright might put them at risk of being banned for use of 3rd-party programs…

With meters being made acceptable, these groups have no fear of ban, and as a result reject anyone who’s not meta.

Funny, I used to see a lot more exclusion complaints before meters became a thing. Now, what I am willing to believe is that you may have encountered more exclusion since meters were legitimized, but I question whether your sample size is significant. While I readily believe that people point to meter data to justify exclusion, people pointed to other things before meters. I’m not a meta fan, but I can usually tell what builds players are using. If I believed that build X does better damage, I would not need a meter to tell if player Y was using build X or not.

Why is the craftsmen blaming the tool for their poor performance again ?

If you dislike the fact that people around you know that you’re doing less then them perhaps adapt a new playstyle or learn to cope with the fact that you brought a hand hammer to a building demolition while others brought CATs

TexZero.7910:

Why is the craftsmen blaming the tool for their poor performance again ?

If you dislike the fact that people around you know that you’re doing less then them perhaps adapt a new playstyle or learn to cope with the fact that you brought a hand hammer to a building demolition while others brought CATs

Sometimes the tool is the one with the tool. When I played WoW and other MMOs you HAD to have addons. I like ANETs strategy of limiting addons to QoL ones instead of ones that keep most elitists out of game. Sorry. Just my opinion. Regardless of what is said here someone can be off a little on DPS and no one will notice but a meter DOES cause exclusion.

Just another indication that GW2 is quickly becoming a game more about math, copy-pasting builds and min-maxing than anything else.

It’s still possible to enjoy the game if you don’t play that way but it is definitely becoming harder and harder to do so.

usnedward.9023:

TexZero.7910:

Why is the craftsmen blaming the tool for their poor performance again ?

If you dislike the fact that people around you know that you’re doing less then them perhaps adapt a new playstyle or learn to cope with the fact that you brought a hand hammer to a building demolition while others brought CATs

Sometimes the tool is the one with the tool. When I played WoW and other MMOs you HAD to have addons. I like ANETs strategy of limiting addons to QoL ones instead of ones that keep most elitists out of game. Sorry. Just my opinion. Regardless of what is said here someone can be off a little on DPS and no one will notice but a meter DOES cause exclusion.

No, a meter causes data to be saved and read. The person causes exclusion.

This is why you can have exclusion without having meters. See old dungeon meta where condi was a joke and necro’s complained about Ice-Bow being burst and not DPS.

But sure blame the tool and not people. People cause the problems, both the people using the information and those contributing to said information (sorry if your DPS is low but don’t blame the tool for it)

TexZero.7910:

usnedward.9023:

TexZero.7910:

Why is the craftsmen blaming the tool for their poor performance again ?

If you dislike the fact that people around you know that you’re doing less then them perhaps adapt a new playstyle or learn to cope with the fact that you brought a hand hammer to a building demolition while others brought CATs

Sometimes the tool is the one with the tool. When I played WoW and other MMOs you HAD to have addons. I like ANETs strategy of limiting addons to QoL ones instead of ones that keep most elitists out of game. Sorry. Just my opinion. Regardless of what is said here someone can be off a little on DPS and no one will notice but a meter DOES cause exclusion.

No, a meter causes data to be saved and read. The person causes exclusion.

This is why you can have exclusion without having meters. See old dungeon meta where condi was a joke and necro’s complained about Ice-Bow being burst and not DPS.

But sure blame the tool and not people. People cause the problems, both the people using the information and those contributing to said information (sorry if your DPS is low but don’t blame the tool for it)

You miss the point. There is no place for any tools. YES if you want to raid or do high level fractals you HAVE to use meta…you don’t need a tool for meta as it is quite obvious in most cases where there is a lack of DPS. SO IMO case closed. Go play a game where you like tooling around. I

Feanor.2358:

Angelweave.1856:

With the introduction of dps meter’s it is apparent that player versatility is narrowing, i.e. if you see a thief running dual pistols you immediately know they bring little to the table whatever game mode they are playing (pve/wvw/pvp).

I disagree. You can judge a bad build by just knowing the game. I would guess most of the people running dps meters already are familiar enough with it to make said judgement.

This. This thread has been flawed from the beginning because the basic assumption is simply wrong. Anyone who cared knew to tell apart strong and useless weapon types long before dps meters. It’s not as if you didn’t notice whether a weapon has good damage or not by simply playing your class.

usnedward.9023:

TexZero.7910:

usnedward.9023:

TexZero.7910:

Why is the craftsmen blaming the tool for their poor performance again ?

If you dislike the fact that people around you know that you’re doing less then them perhaps adapt a new playstyle or learn to cope with the fact that you brought a hand hammer to a building demolition while others brought CATs

Sometimes the tool is the one with the tool. When I played WoW and other MMOs you HAD to have addons. I like ANETs strategy of limiting addons to QoL ones instead of ones that keep most elitists out of game. Sorry. Just my opinion. Regardless of what is said here someone can be off a little on DPS and no one will notice but a meter DOES cause exclusion.

No, a meter causes data to be saved and read. The person causes exclusion.

This is why you can have exclusion without having meters. See old dungeon meta where condi was a joke and necro’s complained about Ice-Bow being burst and not DPS.

But sure blame the tool and not people. People cause the problems, both the people using the information and those contributing to said information (sorry if your DPS is low but don’t blame the tool for it)

You miss the point. There is no place for any tools. YES if you want to raid or do high level fractals you HAVE to use meta…you don’t need a tool for meta as it is quite obvious in most cases where there is a lack of DPS. SO IMO case closed. Go play a game where you like tooling around. I

There clearly is a place for the tool as Anet has both condoned them and added one in game for the players benefit.

Tools help you improve, i get that you really don’t like that but without testing and refining and having the proper analytical tools one cannot expect to properly measure improvement.

TexZero.7910:

usnedward.9023:

TexZero.7910:

usnedward.9023:

TexZero.7910:

Why is the craftsmen blaming the tool for their poor performance again ?

If you dislike the fact that people around you know that you’re doing less then them perhaps adapt a new playstyle or learn to cope with the fact that you brought a hand hammer to a building demolition while others brought CATs

Sometimes the tool is the one with the tool. When I played WoW and other MMOs you HAD to have addons. I like ANETs strategy of limiting addons to QoL ones instead of ones that keep most elitists out of game. Sorry. Just my opinion. Regardless of what is said here someone can be off a little on DPS and no one will notice but a meter DOES cause exclusion.

No, a meter causes data to be saved and read. The person causes exclusion.

This is why you can have exclusion without having meters. See old dungeon meta where condi was a joke and necro’s complained about Ice-Bow being burst and not DPS.

But sure blame the tool and not people. People cause the problems, both the people using the information and those contributing to said information (sorry if your DPS is low but don’t blame the tool for it)

You miss the point. There is no place for any tools. YES if you want to raid or do high level fractals you HAVE to use meta…you don’t need a tool for meta as it is quite obvious in most cases where there is a lack of DPS. SO IMO case closed. Go play a game where you like tooling around. I

There clearly is a place for the tool as Anet has both condoned them and added one in game for the players benefit.

Tools help you improve, i get that you really don’t like that but without testing and refining and having the proper analytical tools one cannot expect to properly measure improvement.

Wait…question is this tool for personal use or can you see others in party and such? Just curious. Persoanl use…yeah I can see it to better yourself. Group use? Nah…causes elitism and locks players out which ANET SAID they don’t ever want to do. I use no and have never used addons in this game and I choose not to.

TexZero.7910:

usnedward.9023:

TexZero.7910:

Why is the craftsmen blaming the tool for their poor performance again ?

If you dislike the fact that people around you know that you’re doing less then them perhaps adapt a new playstyle or learn to cope with the fact that you brought a hand hammer to a building demolition while others brought CATs

Sometimes the tool is the one with the tool. When I played WoW and other MMOs you HAD to have addons. I like ANETs strategy of limiting addons to QoL ones instead of ones that keep most elitists out of game. Sorry. Just my opinion. Regardless of what is said here someone can be off a little on DPS and no one will notice but a meter DOES cause exclusion.

No, a meter causes data to be saved and read. The person causes exclusion.

This is why you can have exclusion without having meters. See old dungeon meta where condi was a joke and necro’s complained about Ice-Bow being burst and not DPS.

But sure blame the tool and not people. People cause the problems, both the people using the information and those contributing to said information (sorry if your DPS is low but don’t blame the tool for it)

Exclusion over old condi is a rather dishonest argument. Unlike what is happening now, it was an undeniable fact in the past that having multiple condi builds was detrimental to team play as the condition damage would be inconsistent and with how low the condi cap was they would quickly reach a point where they were not contributing. Even in open world events you caused more harm than good if there were multiple condi builds present, the boss would get stronger but damage output remained unchanged.

What happens now is people exclude for 1% less DPS, not running established meta, or simply using “the wrong weapon”

usnedward.9023:

TexZero.7910:

usnedward.9023:

TexZero.7910:

usnedward.9023:

TexZero.7910:

Why is the craftsmen blaming the tool for their poor performance again ?

If you dislike the fact that people around you know that you’re doing less then them perhaps adapt a new playstyle or learn to cope with the fact that you brought a hand hammer to a building demolition while others brought CATs

Sometimes the tool is the one with the tool. When I played WoW and other MMOs you HAD to have addons. I like ANETs strategy of limiting addons to QoL ones instead of ones that keep most elitists out of game. Sorry. Just my opinion. Regardless of what is said here someone can be off a little on DPS and no one will notice but a meter DOES cause exclusion.

No, a meter causes data to be saved and read. The person causes exclusion.

This is why you can have exclusion without having meters. See old dungeon meta where condi was a joke and necro’s complained about Ice-Bow being burst and not DPS.

But sure blame the tool and not people. People cause the problems, both the people using the information and those contributing to said information (sorry if your DPS is low but don’t blame the tool for it)

You miss the point. There is no place for any tools. YES if you want to raid or do high level fractals you HAVE to use meta…you don’t need a tool for meta as it is quite obvious in most cases where there is a lack of DPS. SO IMO case closed. Go play a game where you like tooling around. I

There clearly is a place for the tool as Anet has both condoned them and added one in game for the players benefit.

Tools help you improve, i get that you really don’t like that but without testing and refining and having the proper analytical tools one cannot expect to properly measure improvement.

Wait…question is this tool for personal use or can you see others in party and such? Just curious. Persoanl use…yeah I can see it to better yourself. Group use? Nah…causes elitism and locks players out which ANET SAID they don’t ever want to do. I use no and have never used addons in this game and I choose not to.

Both.

And i hate to point this out to you, but you’re wrong about Anet’s stance on DPS meters. https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5sw8ey/arenanets_official_stance_on_3rd_party_dps_meters/

Toxicity exist and will always exist with or without these tools. If it gets to the point where you feel you need to report the person then report the person. But you cannot blame a tool for what would happen without it.

Even before people used them, exclusion was happening. It’s entirely fair to say this as many of your traditional “PUG” groups would often bypass Guards and Thieves in favor of Ele’s because LAWL DPS even before we had the tools to accurately measure the differences. If you think this is somehow unique to Raids, Need i remind you of the 4 warrior and a Mesmer meta of years past ?

TexZero.7910:

If you think this is somehow unique to Raids, Need i remind you of the 4 warrior and a Mesmer meta of years past ?

The difference was that any five idiots can beat a dungeon path, regardless of build. The meta back then was doing it faster, not doing it period. That’s the elephant in the room: Anet created content that (by design) was exclusionary in a way that dungeons and even fractals never were.

That’s the natural consequence of introducing a minimal amount of challenge. Raids can be beaten with pretty much any build (as the never ending stream of joke kill videos proves), but they require a minimum level (not really high, if I look at most bosses) of player skill. That’s a good thing.

Versatility and DPS meters have nothing to do witch eachother.

If you want to allow versatility and non max DPS builds (also non-Meta build) you get an interestiung problem…

This said versatility and saying: “all welcome” seemingly invites the soldier builds, nomads, minstrels and all other builds imaginable with ranged weapons.

The problem is the “above average or near Meta builds” are not welcome in Meta and are squishy outside meta, mostly cause meta expects certain roles to control buffs and the endurance of the party, and non meta groups or builds sometimes lack these roles

this said…
The 1 Chrono, 1 ©PS, 1 druid and 2 ©DPS can easily be replaced by other succesfull, but non max dps comps

Non Meta will often finish content fine, maybe a little slower… Getting a decent comp together however tends to be a horrid experience and it tends to be a shuffle of builds to reach a comp whcih is working in some cases, or at least an understanding of possible builds..

This said DPS meters will show ppl not providing as much DPS.
The use of DPS meters is a big discussion, provided there is not a call for meta comp.

If someone joins your non meta comp on a build capable of sustain, with 150 AR doing continous dmg while facetanking is that a bad thing? He is putting in effort to finish the content, provides a meatshield and is obviously familiar with the content in t3/4… Albeit not in a Meta fashion.

“It will cost more time, so more food, boosters and will lower the income/time.”
- Maybe, but I’m here to relax, not to have a fulltime job again in my game.

The obvious problem is ppl not running Meta, including but not limited to:

• minstrel(/and to a certain point commander’s) chrono’s,
• minstrel,magi, celestial ele’s,
• magi druids,
• celestial builds,
• PVT bunker builds and
• ranged semi bunkerworld bossers)

will as a group lose a lot of time when they join up.

This is also why the meta developed into zerker and viper, (and maybe commander, assassin, sinister, (and for me also zealot (heal for fractals), even if it’s debatable)

DPS meters should be a tool to improve your own DPS, not to harass player about their DPS… I still feel proud on some bosses when I draw aggro cause I know they seek out the highest DPS, even though I’m on CPS, which means some ppl are likely to fail achieving thier DPS in my group.

I am however very flexible with players using zerkers/assasin or vipers/sinister on non meta weapon and sigil and rune sets. They might have a litle lower DPS, but they often show a good understanding of their class outside or next to the meta, change utilities to suit bosses, swap weapons if needed and providing a more flexible run…

And they tend to stick with parties better. If your group does 25K dps less then a perfect group, who cares. in most cases i’d expect all ppl to carry builds delivering DPS
I do not care much for magi druid in fractals, I prefer zealot, or viper, I certainly do not care for minstrel builds.

But if you look past this you’ll see you’ll do enough damage easily,
10-12 k for chrono,
8-10k for (zealot) druid,
20 k for condi PS,
25 for a guardian
25 for a cranger will finish you your content.

I expect ~75k for a group thats roughly 15k /person whcih is really off compared to the meta perfection.

Druid 1-2k
Condi PS 25+k
Chrono 13.5k
Condi tempest 32k
Condi thief 34k

For about 105k with a full magi healer. giving an average group DPS of 20-25k p/person on the golem, and thus in Fractals and Raids (or will they?). yes that’s 1.4 times the dmg and seeing this will be finishing content in 71% of the time it would take me, this is relevant on DPS checks (I’d run meta on DPS checks) but in all other content it’s trivial.

If I kill a boss in dungeon in 5 seconds… you’ll kill it in 3.5
If I take 8 minutes you’ll take 5 minutes and 45 seconds.
It’s not like you’ll be standing there killing stuff and take 30 minutes…

I also know viper comp will do (in fractals)
Reaper 20-25k
Reaper 20-25k
Reaper 20-25k
Condi PS 17-20k
Condi Druid 10-13k

For about 90-100k without a real healer, giving some utility not seen in the meta comp being very usefull vs more then 1 enemy, and it’s way less squishy… In this case times are comparable… and you’ll finsh in 6 minutes instead of the formentioned 8 or 5m45 with no real downtime… and if stuff dies it’s the PS and the druid….

I do not ask much and I prefer my slacker runs.
Cause I find:

• the frequent toxicity
• the stress over the last 5-8k/person
• the ppl not able to grasp you do not have 18 stat infusions
• the kicks resulting from resses, mechanics, and other non skill related issues
• the flaming and salt and fingerpointing

often found in the “DPS meter meta” less fun.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

TexZero.7910:

If you think this is somehow unique to Raids, Need i remind you of the 4 warrior and a Mesmer meta of years past ?

The difference was that any five idiots can beat a dungeon path, regardless of build. The meta back then was doing it faster, not doing it period. That’s the elephant in the room: Anet created content that (by design) was exclusionary in a way that dungeons and even fractals never were.

You assume raids aren’t doing the same thing here and that’s your mistake.

The meta for raids is literally about doing it the fastest and most efficient way, but you can quite literally throw together a group of 10 people not running meta and still complete it.

Also, to state that it was created to be exclusionary by default is pretty off base. It was designed so that 10 people who wanted to learn the mechanics, knew their class, and were willing to adapt could clear it. That’s not creating exclusionary content, that’s fostering teamwork and community building. The only thing that’s creating exclusion are the people on both sides who either want to be carried or don’t want to deal with carrying.

TexZero.7910:

Also, to state that it was created to be exclusionary by default is pretty off base. It was designed so that 10 people who wanted to learn the mechanics, knew their class, and were willing to adapt could clear it. That’s not creating exclusionary content, that’s fostering teamwork and community building. The only thing that’s creating exclusion are the people on both sides who either want to be carried or don’t want to deal with carrying.

Eh, that’s a tricky one. It was created as “challenging group content,” which is both “exclusionary” and “open” in the same way that a chess club would be if it required that people learn chess before joining.

• Both are open to anyone willing to learn (easier for some than others).
• It excludes those who aren’t.

Like a lot of threads, there’s two sorts of elitism sometimes expressed:

• Those who want to exclude the sort of person who doesn’t want to run a meta build
• Those who want to exclude the sort of people who only want to run a meta build.

The first group justifies their choice by pointing out that meta comps are more likely to succeed PUGging attempts (and thus waste less time); the second group claims to hold the moral high ground: meta is ‘boring’ or ‘cookie cutter’, that it’s not sufficiently ‘versatile’ or or ‘true to the casual nature’ of GW2.

For what it’s worth, I agree with both groups: there’s good reason to restrict the types of builds for PUGging attempts and there’s value in allowing for creativity. Which is why I would never join a PUG or static group without learning which type they were and adjust my expectations (and build) accordingly.

IndigoSundown.5419:

DPS meters have only confirmed what was already taking place in PvE meta play. Exclusion of non-meta builds has been a thing in this game since meta play first developed. The existence of meters has not in any way increased exclusion behavior. In fact, the existence of a meter gives someone the opportunity to prove their non-meta build is competitive, or perhaps even better.

In other words nothing to see here people do not think for yourselves, do not use rational thought like how dps meters literally show people how much dps meta does vs non meta it literally cannot have an effect on how people view on non meta. /Sarcasm.

Lol seriously think about it, all of a sudden people have something to compare it to and suddenly say well that’s ok I will not ignore the non meta and let them under perform in my raid group because they suddenly have a change of heart? Does that sound rational to you? It is baffling how many of you claim it has no effect in getting people kicked.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Versatility and DPS meters have nothing to do witch eachother.

If you want to allow versatility and non max DPS builds (also non-Meta build) you get an interestiung problem…

This said versatility and saying: “all welcome” seemingly invites the soldier builds, nomads, minstrels and all other builds imaginable with ranged weapons.

The problem is the “above average or near Meta builds” are not welcome in Meta and are squishy outside meta, mostly cause meta expects certain roles to control buffs and the endurance of the party, and non meta groups or builds sometimes lack these roles

this said…
The 1 Chrono, 1 ©PS, 1 druid and 2 ©DPS can easily be replaced by other succesfull, but non max dps comps

Non Meta will often finish content fine, maybe a little slower… Getting a decent comp together however tends to be a horrid experience and it tends to be a shuffle of builds to reach a comp whcih is working in some cases, or at least an understanding of possible builds..

This said DPS meters will show ppl not providing as much DPS.
The use of DPS meters is a big discussion, provided there is not a call for meta comp.

If someone joins your non meta comp on a build capable of sustain, with 150 AR doing continous dmg while facetanking is that a bad thing? He is putting in effort to finish the content, provides a meatshield and is obviously familiar with the content in t3/4… Albeit not in a Meta fashion.

“It will cost more time, so more food, boosters and will lower the income/time.”
- Maybe, but I’m here to relax, not to have a fulltime job again in my game.

The obvious problem is ppl not running Meta, including but not limited to:

• minstrel(/and to a certain point commander’s) chrono’s,
• minstrel,magi, celestial ele’s,
• magi druids,
• celestial builds,
• PVT bunker builds and
• ranged semi bunkerworld bossers)

will as a group lose a lot of time when they join up.

This is also why the meta developed into zerker and viper, (and maybe commander, assassin, sinister, (and for me also zealot (heal for fractals), even if it’s debatable)

DPS meters should be a tool to improve your own DPS, not to harass player about their DPS… I still feel proud on some bosses when I draw aggro cause I know they seek out the highest DPS, even though I’m on CPS, which means some ppl are likely to fail achieving thier DPS in my group.

I am however very flexible with players using zerkers/assasin or vipers/sinister on non meta weapon and sigil and rune sets. They might have a litle lower DPS, but they often show a good understanding of their class outside or next to the meta, change utilities to suit bosses, swap weapons if needed and providing a more flexible run…

And they tend to stick with parties better. If your group does 25K dps less then a perfect group, who cares. in most cases i’d expect all ppl to carry builds delivering DPS
I do not care much for magi druid in fractals, I prefer zealot, or viper, I certainly do not care for minstrel builds.

But if you look past this you’ll see you’ll do enough damage easily,
10-12 k for chrono,
8-10k for (zealot) druid,
20 k for condi PS,
25 for a guardian
25 for a cranger will finish you your content.

I expect ~75k for a group thats roughly 15k /person whcih is really off compared to the meta perfection.

Druid 1-2k
Condi PS 25+k
Chrono 13.5k
Condi tempest 32k
Condi thief 34k

For about 105k with a full magi healer. giving an average group DPS of 20-25k p/person on the golem, and thus in Fractals and Raids (or will they?). yes that’s 1.4 times the dmg and seeing this will be finishing content in 71% of the time it would take me, this is relevant on DPS checks (I’d run meta on DPS checks) but in all other content it’s trivial.

If I kill a boss in dungeon in 5 seconds… you’ll kill it in 3.5
If I take 8 minutes you’ll take 5 minutes and 45 seconds.
It’s not like you’ll be standing there killing stuff and take 30 minutes…

I also know viper comp will do (in fractals)
Reaper 20-25k
Reaper 20-25k
Reaper 20-25k
Condi PS 17-20k
Condi Druid 10-13k

For about 90-100k without a real healer, giving some utility not seen in the meta comp being very usefull vs more then 1 enemy, and it’s way less squishy… In this case times are comparable… and you’ll finsh in 6 minutes instead of the formentioned 8 or 5m45 with no real downtime… and if stuff dies it’s the PS and the druid….

I do not ask much and I prefer my slacker runs.
Cause I find:

• the frequent toxicity
• the stress over the last 5-8k/person
• the ppl not able to grasp you do not have 18 stat infusions
• the kicks resulting from resses, mechanics, and other non skill related issues
• the flaming and salt and fingerpointing

often found in the “DPS meter meta” less fun.

If only everyone using dps meters and who only trust the meta could see this post.

What for? I have the impression that it’s little more than an average mixture of platitudes, nonsense and stuff that’s obvious to anyone capable of halfway clear thinking – at a truly epic length that’s in no way connected to the content.

Ryou.2398:

IndigoSundown.5419:

DPS meters have only confirmed what was already taking place in PvE meta play. Exclusion of non-meta builds has been a thing in this game since meta play first developed. The existence of meters has not in any way increased exclusion behavior. In fact, the existence of a meter gives someone the opportunity to prove their non-meta build is competitive, or perhaps even better.

In other words nothing to see here people do not think for yourselves, do not use rational thought like how dps meters literally show people how much dps meta does vs non meta it literally cannot have an effect on how people view on non meta. /Sarcasm.

Lol seriously think about it, all of a sudden people have something to compare it to and suddenly say well that’s ok I will not ignore the non meta and let them under perform in my raid group because they suddenly have a change of heart? Does that sound rational to you? It is baffling how many of you claim it has no effect in getting people kicked.

Nice straw man. If you’re going to quote my post and respond, how about sticking to what I said instead of misplaced sarcasm based on fabrication. There is overwhelming evidence that exclusion was been an issue long before meters. There is little to no evidence that exclusion has increased due to meters. There is every reason to believe that if meters had not been allowed, we would see similar volume of complaints about exclusion. The obvious conclusion is that exclusion occurs independent of meters.

Finally, of course someone could use a meter to prove that a non-meta build can do competitive dps. That’s how meta comps change. I never said that a player could drop in to any LFG group and be granted the opportunity to prove it. The players who set the meta do their experimenting with a guild or group of friends. They don’t drop into a PuG.

Henry.5713:

There is a very simple reason why people hate meters. It hurts to have a bad feeling about your own underperformance being proven to you by accurate numbers and statistics.
It hurts even more to have your mind blown if you didn’t even realize you were underperforming or to know that other player will see all of that information as well.

You know when you’re playing a cooperative board game and there’s that one player who’s telling everyone what they “should” be doing with their turns instead of letting them actually play the game themselves?

In my experience, that’s why people “hate” meters/meta/whatever.

Then add in the sociopolitically distasteful “pulling your own weight” diatribe that gets flung about by these backseat gamers, and you can begin to understand one of the many alternate points of view on this topic, and why allowing meters might be viewed as legitimising what some see as an unhealthy environment.

“There is a very simple reason why people hate meters. It hurts to have a bad feeling about your own underperformance being proven to you by accurate numbers and statistics.
It hurts even more to have your mind blown if you didn’t even realize you were underperforming or to know that other player will see all of that information as well.”

This is so true. Well ignorance is bliss i guess, u dont see the need to improve, u dont see the rest of the team carrying you, so u can remain ignorant and keep on getting carried.

That’s why people dont like the dps meters, cause it says FU to people using trash builds, trash rotations, dragging the rest of the group down and getting carried all over the place. For a lot of people dps meters are one of the best ways to improve…then again most people dont want to improve, its too much effort even in a game as ez as GW2.

Rashagar.8349:

sociopolitically distasteful “pulling your own weight” diatribe

zoomborg.9462:

Well ignorance is bliss i guess, u dont see the need to improve, u dont see the rest of the team carrying you, so u can remain ignorant and keep on getting carried.

That’s why people dont like the dps meters, cause it says FU to people using trash builds, trash rotations, dragging the rest of the group down and getting carried all over the place. For a lot of people dps meters are one of the best ways to improve…then again most people dont want to improve, its too much effort even in a game as ez as GW2.

One of those times when I’m sat here trying to figure out if this was a piece of intentional satire or just one of those baffling accidents.

Rashagar.8349:

Henry.5713:

There is a very simple reason why people hate meters. It hurts to have a bad feeling about your own underperformance being proven to you by accurate numbers and statistics.
It hurts even more to have your mind blown if you didn’t even realize you were underperforming or to know that other player will see all of that information as well.

You know when you’re playing a cooperative board game and there’s that one player who’s telling everyone what they “should” be doing with their turns instead of letting them actually play the game themselves?

In my experience, that’s why people “hate” meters/meta/whatever.

Then add in the sociopolitically distasteful “pulling your own weight” diatribe that gets flung about by these backseat gamers, and you can begin to understand one of the many alternate points of view on this topic, and why allowing meters might be viewed as legitimising what some see as an unhealthy environment.

This… a million times this… I play this game for enjoyment… I’m not here to be told “you have to do things this way or GTFO”. I get enough of that at work, I’m not here for work, I’m here for fun and relaxation. There are enough headaches in the game from unnecessary and quite frankly stupid restrictions, adding on being required to play your meta builds and meet your ever growing DPS minimums is one headache I and many others would rather not deal with. Unfortunately, nearly any time we decide to go do some group content, we get that kitten forced on us by everyone who’s running around with a meter.

And worse is all the people like Zoomborg and Henry who are convinced that “we just don’t like having our flaws pointed out”. No, truth be told many of us could give a rats ass about our “flaws”. We’re here for enjoyment first and foremost.

A damage meter is a convenience tool. It is more convenient to know what one’s (or the group’s) numbers are than it is to guess. The LFG is also a convenience tool. Getting into any group available at the time one wants to play is more convenient than starting one’s own group.

Convenience is a big issue for MMO gamers. The entire exclusion issue is about convenience. Players posting reqs want the convenience of a smooth instance run with no wipes. Players joining groups whose reqs don’t fit their play preferences want the convenience of getting into a group now.

Honestly, the LFG tool is a greater source of conflict over what the group is going to accept than meters. All you need do is look at the history of grouping in this game, going back to when the LFG was via a 3rd party site. Conflict over meta reqs was around long before meters. People don’t clamor for the removal of the LFG tool, though. It is a potential convenience for everyone that uses it. Meters are only convenient for those who want the data.

That does not mean that meters are evil and need to be removed. What it means is that those who don’t care about the convenience meters provide and those who do care should not be in the same groups. The problem is that players who don’t care for the convenience of meters still want the convenience of rapid grouping. Unfortunately, their solution for the problem is to demand that players who want the convenience of meters need to lose that convenience so they don’t have to pass on the convenience of rapid grouping.

The irony, of course, is that removing meters is not going to remove the conflict. It would just remove one excuse for the conflict.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ryou.2398:

IndigoSundown.5419:

DPS meters have only confirmed what was already taking place in PvE meta play. Exclusion of non-meta builds has been a thing in this game since meta play first developed. The existence of meters has not in any way increased exclusion behavior. In fact, the existence of a meter gives someone the opportunity to prove their non-meta build is competitive, or perhaps even better.

In other words nothing to see here people do not think for yourselves, do not use rational thought like how dps meters literally show people how much dps meta does vs non meta it literally cannot have an effect on how people view on non meta. /Sarcasm.

Lol seriously think about it, all of a sudden people have something to compare it to and suddenly say well that’s ok I will not ignore the non meta and let them under perform in my raid group because they suddenly have a change of heart? Does that sound rational to you? It is baffling how many of you claim it has no effect in getting people kicked.

Nice straw man. If you’re going to quote my post and respond, how about sticking to what I said instead of misplaced sarcasm based on fabrication. There is overwhelming evidence that exclusion was been an issue long before meters. There is little to no evidence that exclusion has increased due to meters. There is every reason to believe that if meters had not been allowed, we would see similar volume of complaints about exclusion. The obvious conclusion is that exclusion occurs independent of meters.

Finally, of course someone could use a meter to prove that a non-meta build can do competitive dps. That’s how meta comps change. I never said that a player could drop in to any LFG group and be granted the opportunity to prove it. The players who set the meta do their experimenting with a guild or group of friends. They don’t drop into a PuG.

Ahhh yes the most over used assumption on the internet the pathetic strawman comment, if anyone did that it was you to begin with. No but you did imply it obviously.

Angelweave.1856:

With the introduction of dps meter’s it is apparent that player versatility is narrowing, i.e. if you see a thief running dual pistols you immediately know they bring little to the table whatever game mode they are playing (pve/wvw/pvp).

I personally like dps meters though the gap between meta and “play the way you like” is a substantially large gap (not because people run nomads vs berserkers) it is simply that some weapon sets perform subpar.

In a perfect world I would like to see that, head to head each weapon set and weapon combination is viable either due to direct damage output, additional utility, cc, etc…

Its funny you bring up p/p thief. I love the style of it, the flow of its combat etc. But ultimately the lack of performance of p/p vs other weapons is what got me to quit my thief and make it into a storage toon.

Panda.1967:

Rashagar.8349:

Henry.5713:

There is a very simple reason why people hate meters. It hurts to have a bad feeling about your own underperformance being proven to you by accurate numbers and statistics.
It hurts even more to have your mind blown if you didn’t even realize you were underperforming or to know that other player will see all of that information as well.

You know when you’re playing a cooperative board game and there’s that one player who’s telling everyone what they “should” be doing with their turns instead of letting them actually play the game themselves?

In my experience, that’s why people “hate” meters/meta/whatever.

Then add in the sociopolitically distasteful “pulling your own weight” diatribe that gets flung about by these backseat gamers, and you can begin to understand one of the many alternate points of view on this topic, and why allowing meters might be viewed as legitimising what some see as an unhealthy environment.

This… a million times this… I play this game for enjoyment… I’m not here to be told “you have to do things this way or GTFO”. I get enough of that at work, I’m not here for work, I’m here for fun and relaxation. There are enough headaches in the game from unnecessary and quite frankly stupid restrictions, adding on being required to play your meta builds and meet your ever growing DPS minimums is one headache I and many others would rather not deal with. Unfortunately, nearly any time we decide to go do some group content, we get that kitten forced on us by everyone who’s running around with a meter.

Funny. I’m running a meter myself since they became legal. I only remember a player (and it was not me) remarking on another player’s DPS once. A lot more often I see “wtf, why are you using weapon X”, or “why do you have only Y AP”. A LOT more often.

You want to have fun? Sure, go ahead. Nobody’s stopping you. And neither are the dps meters. No matter how terrible your dps is, there are a lot of groups who wouldn’t care. And no matter if we have dps meters or not, there are a lot of groups who would care, blame and flame you. You can’t avoid that, except to leave such group when you find one. DPS meters aren’t the issue, players are.

Feanor.2358:

Panda.1967:

Rashagar.8349:

Henry.5713:

There is a very simple reason why people hate meters. It hurts to have a bad feeling about your own underperformance being proven to you by accurate numbers and statistics.
It hurts even more to have your mind blown if you didn’t even realize you were underperforming or to know that other player will see all of that information as well.

You know when you’re playing a cooperative board game and there’s that one player who’s telling everyone what they “should” be doing with their turns instead of letting them actually play the game themselves?

In my experience, that’s why people “hate” meters/meta/whatever.

Then add in the sociopolitically distasteful “pulling your own weight” diatribe that gets flung about by these backseat gamers, and you can begin to understand one of the many alternate points of view on this topic, and why allowing meters might be viewed as legitimising what some see as an unhealthy environment.

This… a million times this… I play this game for enjoyment… I’m not here to be told “you have to do things this way or GTFO”. I get enough of that at work, I’m not here for work, I’m here for fun and relaxation. There are enough headaches in the game from unnecessary and quite frankly stupid restrictions, adding on being required to play your meta builds and meet your ever growing DPS minimums is one headache I and many others would rather not deal with. Unfortunately, nearly any time we decide to go do some group content, we get that kitten forced on us by everyone who’s running around with a meter.

Funny. I’m running a meter myself since they became legal. I only remember a player (and it was not me) remarking on another player’s DPS once. A lot more often I see “wtf, why are you using weapon X”, or “why do you have only Y AP”. A LOT more often.

You want to have fun? Sure, go ahead. Nobody’s stopping you. And neither are the dps meters. No matter how terrible your dps is, there are a lot of groups who wouldn’t care. And no matter if we have dps meters or not, there are a lot of groups who would care, blame and flame you. You can’t avoid that, except to leave such group when you find one. DPS meters aren’t the issue, players are.

Funny thing about it being a people problem is, if we carry on the board game analogy, a lot of the more recent board games have been taking deliberate steps towards obfuscating the information that is available to all players about other players’ current capabilities in an attempt to prevent this backseat playing phenomenon. Just something I find kind of funny, that board games are attempting to become more opaque to try prevent/manage the people problem, while computer games, which have such a head start on being opaque over board games, are becoming more transparent to feed into it.

(I’m not against meters by the way, but I am against how some people who defend meters choose to portray/charicaturise the points of view on the topic that don’t completely align with their own).

Panda.1967:

“Play the way you like” has been completely beaten into the ground when it comes to group content. It’s now “play how we say or get out”… I wish I could say this mentality is purely from the use of DPS meters… but sadly, this is something that was prevalent in GW1 even. However, in GW1, unlike here, people were more receptive of being proven wrong.

There is no “proving wrong”. This a MMORPG. There are going to be better and worse setups for content XYZ. Either you intentionally pick something worse or you don’t.

That being said, difficult is so low everywhere that even if you pick an absolute garbage build, you can do fine. Only everyone will know you do worse, and seriously, why not pick a build which works better for the content you’re trying to do? Your class says, e.g., Elementalist, not “Scepter Dagger Condi Tempest Nomad Gear”.
Or in other words, I expect of the developers that they balance the classes, but to stop there (because frankly that’s enough work and we’re far enough away from that as it is). Meaning you have 1-2 or so specs for each content which are “balanced”. the overall game balance still assumes you’re willing to use those optimal specs, use all parts of your class, as you approach each content.

Flipside, and this is where the “play how you want” comes in: you can do all content. This wasn’t always true in older MMOs!

Rashagar.8349:

Funny thing about it being a people problem is, if we carry on the board game analogy, a lot of the more recent board games have been taking deliberate steps towards obfuscating the information that is available to all players about other players’ current capabilities in an attempt to prevent this backseat playing phenomenon. Just something I find kind of funny, that board games are attempting to become more opaque to try prevent/manage the people problem, while computer games, which have such a head start on being opaque over board games, are becoming more transparent to feed into it.

(I’m not against meters by the way, but I am against how some people who defend meters choose to portray/charicaturise the points of view on the topic that don’t completely align with their own).

That’s an interesting observation, however I wouldn’t attribute it to tackling the “people problem”, rather having an… let’s say “additional layer of difficulty”. Having more information available can make planning (and therefore the game) that much easier, which kills part of the fun.

This, of course, is only my own interpretation. I might as well be wrong.

There is a very simple reason why people hate meters. It hurts to have a bad feeling about your own underperformance being proven to you by accurate numbers and statistics.

This… 100% this.

I LOVE damage meters because they blow away all the smoke on how you’re performing, and how your groups are performing. And I can’t see why that’s a bad thing. I remember the first time (as a thief) that I got outdamaged by a dragonhunter. And it made me go back to the drawing board and nail down my rotation so it wouldn’t happen again. I’ve also been in many groups where I’m literally doing more DPS than the 4 people below me, combined (that’s my cue to leave the group after we’re finished).

If you’re playing a bearbow ranger (for example), then you’re a waste of a slot. And everybody knows it just by seeing the bear and the longbow. But there are many “invisible,” bearbow equivalents that also need to be excluded. DPS meters make that possible. If you can’t be bothered to make a minimal investment in usefulness, then good riddance.

And I’m not talking about being snobbishly “meta” down to the last detail. I’m just saying that some people suck so bad that groups deserve to know it.

Funny how many of the people claiming to love meters and/or claiming they dont add to exclusions, have actually posted reasons why they have added to exclusions and reduced build versatility.

Without meters many exclusions were based on generalized and vague information. Some classes sufferd blanket exclusion, necromancer, while others excluded you if they didnt saw a certain weapon or buff. With meters those exclusions expand to everything but a few select builds. If they see anything that hints that you arnt using the meta build, you’re excluded… for most classes, exclusions jumped from anyone using this one weapon or skill to everyone who isnt using this one build. That is a MASSIVE increase in exclusions, and it was caused by meters.

Does everyone who uses a meter base exclusions on what they personally see in the meter? No… nor are all the exclusions comming from people using meters. But the reasons for the exclusions are directly tied to meters. Someone somewhere recorded X weapon/skill/whatever to be extremely weak, so now everyone using it is excluded… someone else somewhere recorded X build to be the strongest for the class in this role, so you must use this build or be excluded.

Panda.1967:

Funny how many of the people claiming to love meters and/or claiming they dont add to exclusions, have actually posted reasons why they have added to exclusions and reduced build versatility.

[…]

This is an amazing wall of nonsense, almost worthy of the gargantuan nuclear-powered tangerine death pastry. I’ve been pugging T4 fractals on an almost daily basis for the last 10 months and I haven’t seen a dps-based kick (or just rage-rant) once. I repeat, not even once. So where exactly are all those ominous exclusions supposed to happen?

Panda.1967:

Funny how many of the people claiming to love meters and/or claiming they dont add to exclusions, have actually posted reasons why they have added to exclusions and reduced build versatility.

Without meters many exclusions were based on generalized and vague information. Some classes sufferd blanket exclusion, necromancer, while others excluded you if they didnt saw a certain weapon or buff. With meters those exclusions expand to everything but a few select builds. If they see anything that hints that you arnt using the meta build, you’re excluded… for most classes, exclusions jumped from anyone using this one weapon or skill to everyone who isnt using this one build. That is a MASSIVE increase in exclusions, and it was caused by meters.

Does everyone who uses a meter base exclusions on what they personally see in the meter? No… nor are all the exclusions comming from people using meters. But the reasons for the exclusions are directly tied to meters. Someone somewhere recorded X weapon/skill/whatever to be extremely weak, so now everyone using it is excluded… someone else somewhere recorded X build to be the strongest for the class in this role, so you must use this build or be excluded.

The major difference between then and now is that dungeons were more amenable to anything-goes parties than raids. Build-based exclusion was an issue pre-meters, also. There are actually more builds in the raid meta now than in the old dungeon meta due to the inclusion of a need for tanks and a healer for some bosses, and the condi/direct damage thing. Were you around when the only dungeon being farmed was CoF1 and only 4 warriorsand one mesmer, using specific builds, were wanted? I was.

Believe me, I am not someone who cares about meters. I just don’t think the past was any better.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Were you around when the only dungeon being farmed was CoF1 and only 4 warriorsand one mesmer, using specific builds, were wanted? I was.

Believe me, I am not someone who cares about meters. I just don’t think the past was any better.

I’ve been around since the very beginning, I’ve seen how things were then and now… and from what I see, atleast on my server, things have gotten much worse. I was even around for day 1 of GW1.