John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Play versatility and dps meter's
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Were you around when the only dungeon being farmed was CoF1 and only 4 warriorsand one mesmer, using specific builds, were wanted? I was.
Believe me, I am not someone who cares about meters. I just don’t think the past was any better.
I’ve been around since the very beginning, I’ve seen how things were then and now… and from what I see, atleast on my server, things have gotten much worse. I was even around for day 1 of GW1.
How did you measure how bad things were in GW1? In GW2 at launch? In the original Fractals? In current fractals? For how many hours a day did you look at LFGs or count people who entered and reappeared (suggesting that they might have been kicked)?
We humans are mighty good at finding facts that support our beliefs. It takes a lot of effort to collect actual data and interpret it without bias.
How does that not apply equally to you and the OP? Please… share your spreadsheets with us.
Were you around when the only dungeon being farmed was CoF1 and only 4 warriorsand one mesmer, using specific builds, were wanted? I was.
Believe me, I am not someone who cares about meters. I just don’t think the past was any better.
I’ve been around since the very beginning, I’ve seen how things were then and now… and from what I see, atleast on my server, things have gotten much worse. I was even around for day 1 of GW1.
Did you mean region? I thought we were talking about instanced PvE, and servers are afaik, a thing of the past for that type of content. Although, to be honest, I did see a post in the WvW forum about rangers and thieves kicked from zergs, and WvW is still server-based.
The perennial argument between two senses of “fun:” 1) min-maxing performance and efficiency, and 2) goofing off pretending you’re an adventurer in a virtual world.
Personally I’m a 2) type of player usually, and don’t have enough time to get really deep enough into games’ metas, but on those occasions I do get deep enough into a game, I think it’s only polite to fit in with the meta if you want to get the big rewards that come with it.
Funny how many of the people claiming to love meters and/or claiming they dont add to exclusions, have actually posted reasons why they have added to exclusions and reduced build versatility.
Meters have increased build variety. In raids, it was Elementalist only for DPS for the longest time. Yes changes to builds happened but since the DPS golem read out Ele having the top damage, everyone only ever wanted Ele. Since DPS meters, it was shown that a decently played cranger would out DPS a same skilled Ele the vast majority of the time. Other classes were also shown that they pulled great DPS in live scenarios for not much effort. On the flip side, it was also shown that the vast majority of Elementalists were terrible and only pulling ~10k.
The skill level has also increased greatly I have found within raids. My static itself went from having problems since a balance patch (I forget which one exactly) to being able to clear everything easily because we were able to find weak areas and fix them. Our PS warrior was only pulling 10k so we had him swap to Thief and someone else jump on PS. The new person was able to pull 16k+ while he was able to pull 22k on thief. This allowed our group DPS to increase and not have to randomly kick people/shuffle stuff around in order to fix problems we were having.
Now if you think I’m an elitest for playing meta and running a DPS meter, I will let you know I play what is considered to be the weakest class in raids: Guardian. My group is fine with me playing it because I constantly place within the other DPS and also beat others are quite a few fights. Before meters, it would have been hard to see if Guardian was worth bringing compared to an Elementalist because there would be no fight data to support it. There would only be golem data/spreadsheets that said Guardian was bad.
I also in fractals use a burn Guardian build that pulls ~18k with no outside help (keeps 25 might up on itself), while healing others with RtL, Signet of Courage, and being able to cleanse 8 conditions on others. The build is so not meta that it works great in PUGs because it expects there to be no PS, chrono, or druid. While running BGDM (I can only see my own DPS and others with it), I keep trying to improve my own DPS but I get discouraged when I see that the percentage of boss health I do by the end of the fight is 40%+. That means that not only did I do most of the damage, I also healed everyone, cleansed them all, probably projectile blocked with shield, and blocked 1 shot attacks with Aegis. When that is the case it makes me really wonder why I broke my back for that group. I never kick others for being that bad, T4 are whatever, but I do kick when people lie about what they know.
An example of a kick is when the LFG says “100cm, be exp” and we get to the 2nd boss and they do not:
1. Mark where they are going at 66/33%.
2. If they do mark, they run off to a totally different location.
3. Even after wiping 2-3 times and the rest of the group telling them where to go, they do not make the changes needed to fix it.
This will get someone kicked every time, even if they pulled super awesome 100k DPS.
Were you around when the only dungeon being farmed was CoF1 and only 4 warriorsand one mesmer, using specific builds, were wanted? I was.
Believe me, I am not someone who cares about meters. I just don’t think the past was any better.
I’ve been around since the very beginning, I’ve seen how things were then and now… and from what I see, atleast on my server, things have gotten much worse. I was even around for day 1 of GW1.
How did you measure how bad things were in GW1? In GW2 at launch? In the original Fractals? In current fractals? For how many hours a day did you look at LFGs or count people who entered and reappeared (suggesting that they might have been kicked)?
We humans are mighty good at finding facts that support our beliefs. It takes a lot of effort to collect actual data and interpret it without bias.
How does that not apply equally to you and the OP? Please… share your spreadsheets with us.
I’m not making a claim about whether it’s worse now or worse then. I’ve only said that the problem has always existed, that it’s not new because of DPS meters.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Then add in the sociopolitically distasteful “pulling your own weight” diatribe
Since when did pulling your own weight become a bad thing? Are you seriously telling me that good work ethics are no longer desirable?
Sanity is for the weak minded.
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If you view DPS meters or meta builds as a Bad Thing, then don’t run them. Just understand that when you run with a group that expects them, they are not forcing their will on you. You are trying to force your will on them. Everyone else in the group agrees to it, so what makes you so special in that group?
Vice versa, if you join a laid back, relaxed group that doesn’t wish to include DPS meters or meta builds, then just chill out, and don’t insist up on it.
All of it boils down to one thing – common curtesy.
Unless ANet changes their stance, DPS meters (and meta builds) are here to stay. Bellyaching about “the other players who don’t subscribe to the way I play” accomplishes nothing. If you feel excluded for one reason or another, then take the time to search out like-minded people – there’s plenty of people out there, in this game!
(edited by Mord.6501)
Funny how many of Without meters many exclusions were based on generalized and vague information. Some classes sufferd blanket exclusion, necromancer, while others excluded you if they didnt saw a certain weapon or buff. With meters those exclusions expand to everything but a few select builds. If they see anything that hints that you arnt using the meta build, you’re excluded… for most classes, exclusions jumped from anyone using this one weapon or skill to everyone who isnt using this one build. That is a MASSIVE increase in exclusions, and it was caused by meters.
And?
You play, say, an Elementalist. Not a Scepter/Dagger Nomad Elementalist, an Elementalist. As such, you were always expected to be “clever” enough to realize when trait X or weapon Y would be superior, that’s part of the beauty of having a game such as GW2 allow you to ~freely redo your setup.
The big difference was that before it was all rather vague. Elitist exclusionism was based on utterly droll numbers such as the amount of LIs you had or your achievement points. Now it’s based on something which at least has some connection to how good you actually play. Is elitist exclusionism still bad? Ofc it is, but it was ever so slightly improved by this.
On the other end of the spectrum, spec proposals and min/max-ing was massively improved by this, but how is that a bad thing? I already knew beforehand that a Staff is a bad weapon for Mesmers in PvE, all I do now is have more fine-grained details.
If anything, this is a bad sign of the balance of the game. We can now prove how imbalanced traits/weapons are.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Funny how many of the people claiming to love meters and/or claiming they dont add to exclusions, have actually posted reasons why they have added to exclusions and reduced build versatility.
Without meters many exclusions were based on generalized and vague information. Some classes sufferd blanket exclusion, necromancer, while others excluded you if they didnt saw a certain weapon or buff. With meters those exclusions expand to everything but a few select builds. If they see anything that hints that you arnt using the meta build, you’re excluded… for most classes, exclusions jumped from anyone using this one weapon or skill to everyone who isnt using this one build. That is a MASSIVE increase in exclusions, and it was caused by meters.
Does everyone who uses a meter base exclusions on what they personally see in the meter? No… nor are all the exclusions comming from people using meters. But the reasons for the exclusions are directly tied to meters. Someone somewhere recorded X weapon/skill/whatever to be extremely weak, so now everyone using it is excluded… someone else somewhere recorded X build to be the strongest for the class in this role, so you must use this build or be excluded.
Wrong, on so many levels.
First, pre-meter meta was largely decided on what was perceived to be best. In other words, on qT golem benchmarks. Nevermind that so few people could get close to these benchmarks and even less so would maintain decent performance in real raid scenario. The game was filled with wanna-be dps eles who thought camping fire and pressing ‘2’ and ‘5’ off cooldown makes them do 40k dps.
The introduction of the dps meters is what largely debunked this illusion. There were also the ele nerfs and condi buffs in general, but ele builds still remain in the ‘top tier’ dps potential. The difference is, a lot of people now see they can perform as good or better a lot more reliably by playing a simpler build. This increased the build diversity in the actual group compositions.
Of course, there are still the ‘top builds’ which get picked more often than the snowflake ones. This however is a player issue, not a tool one. It’s just what meta is and it’s just how players play games. If anything, dps meters mitigate the issue, to an extent. People experiment, create and play builds tailored to a specific encounter, because it is now very easy to evaluate their performance. This, again, increases the diversity of builds people actually play.
I’ve been around since the very beginning, I’ve seen how things were then and now… and from what I see, atleast on my server, things have gotten much worse. I was even around for day 1 of GW1.
Panda, that lies in the nature of people. Just ask around, was it better 10 years ago, or 30 years ago? Sure enough, everything was better in the past!
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ulterior-motives/201212/why-does-the-past-seem-happy
It’s not a bad thing to only remember positive things, as long as you don’t make the mistake to think that now, things are worse. In 3 years you will probably be here and write about how much better the game/community was in 2017.
Whenever someone starts with the sentence you used in your post, I take it with a grain of salt.
Herleve – Ruins of Surmia
Then add in the sociopolitically distasteful “pulling your own weight” diatribe
Since when did pulling your own weight become a bad thing? Are you seriously telling me that good work ethics are no longer desirable?
No, that’s not what I’m saying. Sorry, I had meant to specify “sociopolitically distasteful diatribe” used by some proponents of it. Not to imply that if you are a proponent of it it follows that you must be spewing sociopolitically distasteful diatribe.
*edit, let me know if I need to explain it further, I had just assumed that people would know the sort of thing I was talking about.
Idk if you raided or did fractals before meters but it was something like “[insert support classes] and 2-4 tempests” Dps meters changed that to “[insert support classes] and 2-4 dps”
The OP mixes two issues. One is simply class balance; the desire for all classes to be perceived as bringing something of equal worth to the table. The second issue is the perception of player value in grouped content.
Grouped content, that’s the thing—playing with other humans. Anything is viable solo, but you may catch hell if you deviate from established norms around grouped content. Anet can directly address class balance and do a good or bad job of it. However, a meta will emerge regardless as that is a human thing. People will learn what works best and they will look for that knowledge in the people they play with. And from this human trait will emerge the tears of the nonconformist. This is pervasive in every sphere of life; why would we expect anything less in gaming.
While I can symphatize with what you are trying to say OP I cant say I agree with you. Exclusion was a thing long before dps meters become a thing in gw2. Only back then it was -ignorant- exclusion. Now the exclusion is backed with cold, hard facts and numbers and more often then not its justified. While it is truth there is some who thinks the meta is the be all and the end all, many experienced players and commanders knows you can clear high tier content with different builds and comps, not just meta ones. Nike have a youtube video, which deals with that topic and he makes few very strong points there. I would suggest take a look at his channel. Its easy to find.
Now… if you come into my group not running a meta build, but show a good knowledge and reaction to mechanics, while dealing the dps YOU should be dealing… I could care less what build you are running, as long as it doesnt interfere with the tank mechanics for instance. But… if you come into my group with trash build, just because its fun for you, deal trash dps and waste my and the time of 9 other people you can expect a swift kick to go and have your fun somewhere else. Would that make me elitist in your eyes? Perhaps, but I wouldnt care one bit, because I took the time and energy to organise MY group, expecting experienced people to get my fast clears, and if I dont I am free to kick them out.
Now let me be clear on your initial point. I am sure you’ve run into some bad apples that kicked you right away when they find out you dont want to run meta build. Thats the norm. People are different and you cant really blame the tool for it. Chances are you’d get kick by those people without it too. Like I said there is many other commanders who are willing to give players a chance to show they pull their weight even if they dont use meta builds and by using DPS meters we can ACCURATELY judge that.
Now imagine that hypothetical scenario: You come into my group where no one runs a dps meter. You come up straight front that you run your own build, which is not a meta per say. I give you a chance. We go in, dps is bad. Now without a way to judge accordingly where do you think the suspicion will go? On you of course, because of your build. Chances are however that you pull your dps, but someone else who runs META build is not (lets be honest… there is a lot of players out there who do terrible dps with the most efficient meta builds). Now… do you see where i am going with that example and why dps meters are actually very useful in this regard? Exclusion was always a thing, it just used to be blind, ignorant exclusion most of the times. Now its deserved and rightful exclusion when we have the tools to provide us with the data we need.
Lastly I would say if all else fails start your own group with your requirements and expactations, but dont expect everyone to threat you like a special snowflake and give you special threatment just because you decided to rebel against what is already established and proven to be the most efficient tactics and composition 90% of the time.
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