Guild Wars 2

Notes: This is just a critique of one of the key aspects of any game: player progression.

There’s a general feeling of a lack of player progression in the game. For myself, the best levels are from 1 to ~ 20. Picking a new character class, trying out the different weapon combinations to unlock skills for them, it’s great. From then on, something feels amiss.

Leveling up should be an exciting event; it’s another milestone the player has passed and the rewards are skill points and trait points. The problem with skill points is that once a player has decided on a playstyle, there’s a couple skills that complement it well and naturally the player goes for those first. But once those options are exhausted, the rest of the skills in that tier are just throwaways until the next tier can be unlocked. Traits are somewhat better than skill points since extra stats are always helpful. What’s a bit odd about traits is the alternating set passive and player chosen passive every 5th level. Why not just allow the player to pick a passive every 5th level? There are certainly more than enough traits to allow for it and having more meaningful options is always good.

What is most certainly adding to this feeling is the level restriction system. Assuming a player is at max level, there doesn’t seem to be much different between fighting a level 5 boar versus fighting a level 70 boar. Why have increasing stats on your character if the game just automatically sets your levels and stats? There is certainly no doubt that better gear makes the low level fights easier, but if the point of the level restriction is to keep everything a challenge, again, why allow increasing stats?

Well that about sums up this rant. I’m interested in hearing other opinions about this, particularly those who feel that player progression is actually great in the game.

Oh man, just wait until you hit 80. Then you can join the rest of the sheep on this board complaining about how terrible the game is because you’re not endlessly trying to get more powerful armor after max level.

The progression aspect imo becomes heaviest with the trait system after 20, and the trait system itself is more of an icing on the cake than a core facet of your build. I was never a fan of my sole purpose in an MMORPG being akin to the typical Ryu trope (I must fight to get stronger, there is no other reason! Yeah, boooring.), but rather the journey my character takes and the happenings along the way, so this aspect of gameplay doesn’t bother me at all. I actually like having a limited skill bar that’s custom-slotted to fit my playstyle. That way I know I’m not playing exactly like some other guardian. You can’t really get that in other MMORPGs. Yeah, there are specs in other games, but it’s usually either cookie-cutter heal build, cookie-cutter tank build, or cookie-cutter DPS build, because if you aint “meta”, you aint viable.

I guess it’s because I don’t have some short man complex to try to overcompensate for, I dunno. I’ll never understand people who think a video game should boil down to “My only reason for playing is higher numbers.”

mmorpg’s are appealing to some people that like to farm and have constant progression. insert : not the right game then grinding is fun and will never disappear from rpg’s. wanting to be better then you currently are, is self improvement. everyone has their ideal game that no company will ever meet dead on.

DusK.3849:

Oh man, just wait until you hit 80. Then you can join the rest of the sheep on this board complaining about how terrible the game is because you’re not endlessly trying to get more powerful armor after max level.

The progression aspect imo becomes heaviest with the trait system after 20, and the trait system itself is more of an icing on the cake than a core facet of your build. I was never a fan of my sole purpose in an MMORPG being akin to the typical Ryu trope (I must fight to get stronger, there is no other reason! Yeah, boooring.), but rather the journey my character takes and the happenings along the way, so this aspect of gameplay doesn’t bother me at all. I actually like having a limited skill bar that’s custom-slotted to fit my playstyle. That way I know I’m not playing exactly like some other guardian. You can’t really get that in other MMORPGs. Yeah, there are specs in other games, but it’s usually either cookie-cutter heal build, cookie-cutter tank build, or cookie-cutter DPS build, because if you aint “meta”, you aint viable.

I guess it’s because I don’t have some short man complex to try to overcompensate for, I dunno. I’ll never understand people who think a video game should boil down to “My only reason for playing is higher numbers.”

It’s about the skills. They are shallow. There are few options. Combat is zergfest. If anything, traits are just number differences that don’t really add visible depth. You’re not different from any other guardian because at core, you’re stuck with the same weapon skills as every other guardian and your options only get more limited from there. It’s not about endless progression, it’s about satisfying progression. The skills and the combat are the root issue of longevity in this game and this problem is a part of it. It’s not a short man’s complex, it’s a smart man’s complex when someone is able to look out beyond the box in front of them. Just because you think the game is about the journey, doesn’t mean other players don’t enjoy tight, mentally engaging, and satisfying progression systems.

lothefallen.7081:

It’s about the skills. They are shallow. There are few options. Combat is zergfest. If anything, traits are just number differences that don’t really add visible depth. You’re not different from any other guardian because at core, you’re stuck with the same weapon skills as every other guardian and your options only get more limited from there. It’s not about endless progression, it’s about satisfying progression. The skills and the combat are the root issue of longevity in this game and this problem is a part of it. It’s not a short man’s complex, it’s a smart man’s complex when someone is able to look out beyond the box in front of them. Just because you think the game is about the journey, doesn’t mean other players don’t enjoy tight, mentally engaging, and satisfying progression systems.

This explains why you think dungeons are badly designed.

Skills are situational. You don’t use Leap of Faith up-close unless you really need that blind. You don’t drop a symbol if neither you nor the enemy will stand in it. Whirlwind Wrath, in a group fight, should be used when everyone’s on you, which you can do by hitting 5 twice. And all of that is with one profession using one weapon.

Bursting into a group with Judges Intervention, shaking off poison and dealing heavy damage, grouping up spiders, taking them out, and leaping at the nearby veteran spider to take on my my Hounds of Balthazar while they gnaw on her freshly Bane Signet’d body sitting in the middle of a newly placed Symbol of Wrath? Pretty sure the combat in this game is anything but shallow.

DusK.3849:

lothefallen.7081:

It’s about the skills. They are shallow. There are few options. Combat is zergfest. If anything, traits are just number differences that don’t really add visible depth. You’re not different from any other guardian because at core, you’re stuck with the same weapon skills as every other guardian and your options only get more limited from there. It’s not about endless progression, it’s about satisfying progression. The skills and the combat are the root issue of longevity in this game and this problem is a part of it. It’s not a short man’s complex, it’s a smart man’s complex when someone is able to look out beyond the box in front of them. Just because you think the game is about the journey, doesn’t mean other players don’t enjoy tight, mentally engaging, and satisfying progression systems.

This explains why you think dungeons are badly designed.

Skills are situational. You don’t use Leap of Faith up-close unless you really need that blind. You don’t drop a symbol if neither you nor the enemy will stand in it. Whirlwind Wrath, in a group fight, should be used when everyone’s on you, which you can do by hitting 5 twice. And all of that is with one profession using one weapon.

Bursting into a group with Judges Intervention, shaking off poison and dealing heavy damage, grouping up spiders, taking them out, and leaping at the nearby veteran spider to take on my my Hounds of Balthazar while they gnaw on her freshly Bane Signet’d body sitting in the middle of a newly placed Symbol of Wrath? Pretty sure the combat in this game is anything but shallow.

I think you’re idealizing it a bit too much. The fact that i can macro 1-5 while i sleep on my keyboard for these fights diminishes the point. Sure, in dungeons if you’re not paying attention, things will gank you. Then again, the difficulty of the encounters in this game is not mechanical, it’s numerical. Enemies will sometimes block, sometimes evade…but where are the skills that break block? There are none. There is limited situational strategy. Bosses still only pose a threat because they can one shot melee and take forever to kill. That’s not mechanical depth, thats number crunching, which is not deep or engaging. Those skills you mentioned last all of 5 seconds and it’s back to rinse-repeating while the other players just beat on it as well. You die? Okay, someone will revive you. It’s just shallow and homogenized compared to GW1. I hope the novelty wears off for you soon.

lothefallen.7081:

The fact that i can macro 1-5 while i sleep on my keyboard for these fights diminishes the point.

Fact =/= hyperbole. If you tried that stuff in any fight near your character level, you’d get wasted.

Fact.

@Above

You should roll an elementalist, you’d stop being able to macro 1-5 for success.

i don’t think the op intended this to be a troll post but it’s turned into that. when someone complains that the game is simultaneously too easy and mindlessly hard, i think someone’s just looking to complain and the actual complaint isn’t that important. as far as proggression, i think it’s less significant than it is in other games as the intention is for you to play the game for playing’s sake. the progression idea works more with subscription models as it’s intended to keep people logging in as long as possible.

i also think a lot of people are having difficulty matching the game with their expectations (including ones we don’t realize we have). i think that’s part of the reason there’s a feeling people get like they need to find bigger numbers for everything. what’s eq at now? 105 levels and 19 expansions? my total lack of interest in eq aside, that is a barrier to entry for me and probably a lot of people. anet’s spent a lot of time figuring out what it is they like and dislike about other games and have tried to bring the best of that home to this game. i think they’ve done a pretty good job just with the convenience features. i think the reason they did this is because they want the gameplay to be fun. you’re not going to fall behind so feel free to go check stuff out. because i’m such a cheap sob and i was spending a lot on crafting mats while leveling, i got into the habit of never using the waypoints. the more i do that, the more i’m finding myself just running into stuff and getting involved (yes, i do lvl 5 de’s on my lvl80). as the major problems get solved, the live team is going to be constantly adding and changing de’s throughout the game. there’s a few elaborate de’s too where the npc’s go through entire scenes that people miss because they’re too busy trying to ACCOMPLISH! for all my own personal trash talk about the low quality of personal storyline, some of the side stuff that’s hidden away is really funny.

the way i see people on forums and in-game with their blinders on reminds me of this story about a guy in a flood (i’m not a ‘religion’ guy but ‘god’ is one of the characters). he’s sitting on his roof and a boat comes past to pick him up. the guy says, “no thanks, god will save me.” the water rises and another boat comes by offering him a spot. “no thanks, god will save me.” so the water rises up to the roof level. a helicopter comes by and offers him a spot. “no thanks, god will save me.” so the water level rises farther and eventuall the guy drowns. he goes to ‘heaven’ and asks, “god, i have complete faith in you and knew you would save me but you never came. why?” and god replies to him, “i don’t know what you’re talking about. i sent 2 boats and a helicopter.”

for some reason that story comes to mind a lot when i’m reading the forums and playing the game. i think a lot of people knew something would be different about this game but it doesn’t seem like they know what they’re looking for.

anyway, tl;dr: i don’t think that progression in the subscription-model sense is an important factor in the development of this game. there are other things to look for and the internalized sense of need to progress is likely a learned response to conditioning.

tl;dr for the tl;dr: check out keg brawl. i’m saving that for when i get bored and so far haven’t had the chance to check it out yet.