Guild Wars 2

illgot.1056:

arcaneclarity.5283:

xtorma.1283:

Erasculio.2914:

Luculus.9860:

_*Do people think, in general, that these forums (and game forums in general) are so negative because the people who are really enjoying themselves just play and don’t come here to whine?*

The reason why Ascended gear was introduced was because player feedback, arguably in this forum, told ArenaNet that people wanted more “progression” in the game.

If complaining worked to get a gear treadmill, do you really think people should stop complaining against it?

IMO, those complaining about the complaints (lol?) are being somewhat hypocrites, since they were complaining about the game until a very short while ago.

Personally, I believe they had this planned all along. It happened to fast to be reactionary.

You think they planned to have a fuchsia colored item tier? Really?

It had to be planned before the game was released.

Content like this does not just show up 2 months after release.

I like the fact that you have pointed out you do not know anything about programming or 3D modeling.

GADefence.5634:

“You end up leaving because most MMO’s make you grind. Well that’s because that’s how MMO’s work. "

I don’t really see the irony. I like FPSers, yet that doesn’t mean I like all of them. I’ve played a lot of MMOs, I liked some of them (GW1, on again off again with STO, I played a few others for quite a while that I forgot over time). I just have a very keen edge to a grind fest now, seeing as I left GW2 within 2 days of the game announcing one after playing GW1 for 7 years and am now looking for a new fun MMO to play.

Again, I will put it to you – I like the idea behind most MMOs I just think they fail at their execution. Your square hole/round pegging me again. I like fighting games, yet I don’t play them excedingly frequently because I do really feel like playing mortal kombat again or street fighter, I did that enough when I was young. Still like stuff like little fighter 2. Obviously, must mean I hate fighting games. Haven’t played an FPS in a few months since blacklight went P2W, obvliously, must hate FPSs.

GW1 was not an MMO, it was a co op RPG, with some multiplayer tacked on.

GW2 is an MMO.

My point is, I fail to see why ppl get upset about a game being what it is supposed to be, an MMO. You obviously said it yourself, you like the “idea” of MMO’s, but to me it seems like you are more into RPG’s.

DegoLocc.5976:

GADefence.5634:

“You end up leaving because most MMO’s make you grind. Well that’s because that’s how MMO’s work. "

I don’t really see the irony. I like FPSers, yet that doesn’t mean I like all of them. I’ve played a lot of MMOs, I liked some of them (GW1, on again off again with STO, I played a few others for quite a while that I forgot over time). I just have a very keen edge to a grind fest now, seeing as I left GW2 within 2 days of the game announcing one after playing GW1 for 7 years and am now looking for a new fun MMO to play.

Again, I will put it to you – I like the idea behind most MMOs I just think they fail at their execution. Your square hole/round pegging me again. I like fighting games, yet I don’t play them excedingly frequently because I do really feel like playing mortal kombat again or street fighter, I did that enough when I was young. Still like stuff like little fighter 2. Obviously, must mean I hate fighting games. Haven’t played an FPS in a few months since blacklight went P2W, obvliously, must hate FPSs.

GW1 was not an MMO, it was a co op RPG, with some multiplayer tacked on.

GW2 is an MMO.

My point is, I fail to see why ppl get upset about a game being what it is supposed to be, an MMO. You obviously said it yourself, you like the “idea” of MMO’s, but to me it seems like you are more into RPG’s.

Yeah, he should really stick to not playing MMOs. I mean they are all really the same anyways right? Just get some sweet RPG’s and call it a day.

xtorma.1283:

DegoLocc.5976:

GADefence.5634:

“There is always going to be players who just don’t get MMO’s and want everything handed to them with no time put in, they are looking for a “fair” arcade beat em up, in the wrong place.”

I love how I’ve played and gotten bored of nearly all MMOs on the market and generally enjoy most of them for a bit (until I need to start 100% grinding) so I must obviously want to play mortal kombat.

Sorry mate, square hole round peg, stop trying to force me through your pre conceptions.

Do you see the irony? You end up leaving because most MMO’s make you grind. Well that’s because that’s how MMO’s work. My point being, you are looking for a game that is not an MMO, but yet still trying to find it while playing MMO’s.

You’re welcome for the revelation.

Most mmo’s presidents didn’t create press releases saying you don’t have to grind either. I don’t need to link it to you right?

Competitive 8 vs 8’s with no attatchment to your level, all players have access to same skills, and gear, completely fair.
No questing, you just participate instead and get xp and credit…
That’s two common MMO “grinds” that GW2 killed right there off the bat.
Yea seems he kept his word to me…….. This game has less grind than any other true MMO out there.

That being said of course there is other aspects of the game, of this MMO, that need to have progression. If you can’t see past your own selfishness to see the whole long term picture, I really don’t know what else to say to you.

There are two kinds of people in this world. Those that understand the complexities of people, and those that think there are only two kinds of people in this world.

Which is to say, your simplification into “whiners on the forum” and “people just enjoying the game” is an oversimplification to the point of being meaningless.

I enjoy this game a lot. I tend to think about it when I’m not playing it, and look forward to when I can play it again. It frequently gives me a sense of wonder as I explore the world.

There are, however, choices I don’t like that the game’s owners have made. They have provided an official forum, and say they want feedback. So when I don’t like something, I make sure to let them know.

Does that make me a forum whiner? Or someone just enjoying the game?

To answer your question OP, Yes.

DegoLocc.5976:

xtorma.1283:

DegoLocc.5976:

GADefence.5634:

“There is always going to be players who just don’t get MMO’s and want everything handed to them with no time put in, they are looking for a “fair” arcade beat em up, in the wrong place.”

I love how I’ve played and gotten bored of nearly all MMOs on the market and generally enjoy most of them for a bit (until I need to start 100% grinding) so I must obviously want to play mortal kombat.

Sorry mate, square hole round peg, stop trying to force me through your pre conceptions.

Do you see the irony? You end up leaving because most MMO’s make you grind. Well that’s because that’s how MMO’s work. My point being, you are looking for a game that is not an MMO, but yet still trying to find it while playing MMO’s.

You’re welcome for the revelation.

Most mmo’s presidents didn’t create press releases saying you don’t have to grind either. I don’t need to link it to you right?

Competitive 8 vs 8’s with no attatchment to your level, all players have access to same skills, and gear, completely fair.
No questing, you just participate instead and get xp and credit…
That’s two common MMO “grinds” that GW2 killed right there off the bat.
Yea seems he kept his word to me…….. This game has less grind than any other true MMO out there.

That being said of course there is other aspects of the game, of this MMO, that need to have progression. If you can’t see past your own selfishness to see the whole long term picture, I really don’t know what else to say to you.

I don’t agree or disagree with you. I just think you have rose colored glasses on , and want to try and make people feel bad because they don’t own a pair. I play the game every day, and i love it. That does not take away from the fact that labeling people as whiners for expressing thier feeling about a product they bought is petty, especially when they have some cause to be concerned.

NaughtyProwler.8653:

You need to stop holding on to the idea that non-subscription with gems is an automatic winning formula. Even if people continue to play, but boycott the gem store (which some have already posted they would do), that is not a win due to bandwidth and maintenance.

As mentioned before, Guild Wars survived for years after the last expansion was released on storage slots, character slots, make-overs, and skins. It’s not “holding on to an idea”, it’s seeing first hand that the model is sustainable. DDo went free to play with micro-transactions and has been more profitable from than when the game had a sub. That worked for Turbine because it wasn’t designed around the time sinks that sub games have. Just like GW and GW2 weren’t.

And you make a really naive assumption that people who “boycott the gem store” are actually sticking to their convictions. Its more likely since they are emotionally invested enough to take the time to make forum posts, that they are just blowing smoke. Like the dozens of people on here that have said they quit and are uninstalling the game, but can still be seen online on a near daily basis. Maybe you should stop holding on to the idea the whiners and “boycotters” are actually following through with their threats.
More than a few of them were probably ranting on here about never buying gems again and then buying dyes/minis or storage five minutes later.

Gibson.4036:

There are two kinds of people in this world. Those that understand the complexities of people, and those that think there are only two kinds of people in this world.

Which is to say, your simplification into “whiners on the forum” and “people just enjoying the game” is an oversimplification to the point of being meaningless.

I enjoy this game a lot. I tend to think about it when I’m not playing it, and look forward to when I can play it again. It frequently gives me a sense of wonder as I explore the world.

There are, however, choices I don’t like that the game’s owners have made. They have provided an official forum, and say they want feedback. So when I don’t like something, I make sure to let them know.

Does that make me a forum whiner? Or someone just enjoying the game?

Not at all, when done constructively like you managed to do here with your post.

In most cases however, the ppl who want to do away with gear progression come on here and rage about how they where lied to by Anet, and overreact in a number of ways, including, threatening quitting the game, trolling, or just generally getting frustrated because in their argument against those who support character growth past 80, they really just don’t have a leg to stand on.

That’s just how I see it anyhow.

I think 80% of people who want this game to be 100% fair for everyone with no gear progression are just lazy, and need a reason to blame some game mechanic for their mistakes and failures in game. They are the “entitled” “I want it now” generation. They are the ones who buy a singler player game, use all the cheat codes for the good weapons or w/e, and are completely bored and done with the game hours later, but yet wonder why.

They eat their sweets right before dinner and spoil their appetite, eat their carrot on the stick too soon, and think it’s the games fault. Never questioning their own actions, or caring to hear from MMO players of old who know and realize that pure cosmetic endgame gear is simply not enough to continue to play the same character for years.

The other 20% of guys on the other hand, have legit arguments for their side, and I respect them and their opinions way more than the foremost.

However in my opinion, endgame gear progression = good thing, despite what "penny arcade, or some helium voiced cartoon on “extra credit thinks”

Have a great day everyone, and lets all try to be more civil and not personally attack others who are respectful, but have a different opinion.

AcidicVision.5498:

As mentioned before, Guild Wars survived for years after the last expansion was released on storage slots, character slots, make-overs, and skins.

Now if only the GW2 shop had makeovers and interesting skins….

Kinda wish they’d tried pure cosmetic in the cash shop before resorting to random loot chests and “convenience” consumables.

Gibson.4036:

There are two kinds of people in this world. Those that understand the complexities of people, and those that think there are only two kinds of people in this world.

Which is to say, your simplification into “whiners on the forum” and “people just enjoying the game” is an oversimplification to the point of being meaningless.

I enjoy this game a lot. I tend to think about it when I’m not playing it, and look forward to when I can play it again. It frequently gives me a sense of wonder as I explore the world.

There are, however, choices I don’t like that the game’s owners have made. They have provided an official forum, and say they want feedback. So when I don’t like something, I make sure to let them know.

Does that make me a forum whiner? Or someone just enjoying the game?

This is well said and I do agree. Arenanet has made some changes that I do not care for, but yet I do still enjoy my time in game for various reasons that I won’t bore everyone with.

At the sametime I can understand where the OP is coming from. When you look at forums it is incredibly negative. Not that there is a problem in and of itself with that, as you said the official forums do exist for a reason and addressing issue’s is one of those reasons. However, when you actually sit and read majority of the posts you realize most of it are pointless threats or complaints that lack substance/explanation. “Ascended gear sucks!” or “this games a grind” doesn’t really iterate anything useful. And I think that’s where the OP is coming from. Rarely is an issue stated with an explanation why it is detrimental to the game and possible solutions to that issue that make sense from business, balance and a gameplay stance. This distinction in my mind is what separates whiners from those who enjoy the game and are pursuing it’s best interests.

xtorma.1283:

DegoLocc.5976:

xtorma.1283:

DegoLocc.5976:

GADefence.5634:

“There is always going to be players who just don’t get MMO’s and want everything handed to them with no time put in, they are looking for a “fair” arcade beat em up, in the wrong place.”

I love how I’ve played and gotten bored of nearly all MMOs on the market and generally enjoy most of them for a bit (until I need to start 100% grinding) so I must obviously want to play mortal kombat.

Sorry mate, square hole round peg, stop trying to force me through your pre conceptions.

Do you see the irony? You end up leaving because most MMO’s make you grind. Well that’s because that’s how MMO’s work. My point being, you are looking for a game that is not an MMO, but yet still trying to find it while playing MMO’s.

You’re welcome for the revelation.

Most mmo’s presidents didn’t create press releases saying you don’t have to grind either. I don’t need to link it to you right?

Competitive 8 vs 8’s with no attatchment to your level, all players have access to same skills, and gear, completely fair.
No questing, you just participate instead and get xp and credit…
That’s two common MMO “grinds” that GW2 killed right there off the bat.
Yea seems he kept his word to me…….. This game has less grind than any other true MMO out there.

That being said of course there is other aspects of the game, of this MMO, that need to have progression. If you can’t see past your own selfishness to see the whole long term picture, I really don’t know what else to say to you.

I don’t agree or disagree with you. I just think you have rose colored glasses on , and want to try and make people feel bad because they don’t own a pair. I play the game every day, and i love it. That does not take away from the fact that labeling people as whiners for expressing thier feeling about a product they bought is petty, especially when they have some cause to be concerned.

If I came off that way I apologize, I never called anyone in particular a whiner, if they had a constructive post. And I don’t have rose colored glasses or think the game is flawless.

But I DO have a personal opinion as well as the foresight to see that this game will need a form of end game gear progression, as long as it is an MMO. I may come off to be a strong debater, and not one who argues, or cries. I have just been around long enough to see this debate 100x over, on 20 other different games, over the last almost 20 years.

But this game is different, it really is. I respect Anet for what they have done, I can see where they are trying to go, and I’d hate to see them get derailed by a group of inexperienced players who don’t really know what they want, or whats best for them. Or have only played one other game they thought was an MMO guild wars 1.

Now that isn’t everyone of course, plenty of ppl are able to think for themselves, but a good number are also totally clueless, and then come to the forums spouting off about something their guildie told them was going to happen in the game. Instead of finding out for themselves and reading what the devs have said they plan to do, not what the players think this “is the start of them doing”.

What gets me are the ones that feel the need to let everyone know they are quitting. Its never constructive i never see anyone try to have a civil discussion about what they think would make what they don’t like better. Its always “these features are terribad and the game is going to sink if its not changed”. And the ones that try to bring others into their pit of sorrow going on about what they hate then asking if anyone else hates it like they do. How does that help make the game better? How is it constructive?

There have been many constructive post but they always get pushed off the front page and disappear.

Karizee.8076:

My experience is the same as yours – everyone in game loving it, then a vocal minority bashing on the forums.

My experience in game, on guild voice chat, and on the forums all seem to suggest fairly similar trends.

While forums are by far the most vocal about their displeasure, player loss has been evident for weeks in-game across several servers I’ve played on, and voice chat has provided a clear tracking of the same (as I’m sure “last date played” would in guild UI if they implemented it).

The new gear, to me, screams desperation on A.net’s part, and I strongly believe it will drive more players away than it attracts.

Scourge.4317:

What gets me are the ones that feel the need to let everyone know they are quitting. Its never constructive i never see anyone try to have a civil discussion about what they think would make what they don’t like better. Its always “these features are terribad and the game is going to sink if its not changed”. And the ones that try to bring others into their pit of sorrow going on about what they hate then asking if anyone else hates it like they do. How does that help make the game better? How is it constructive?

There have been many constructive post but they always get pushed off the front page and disappear.

Most of those, are just ranting, and aren’t going anywhere.
They just tend to overreact, and think their one leaving thread will change Anet’s mind…..

Real players who are unhappy, just leave in most cases, and don’t bother with the forums.

Luculus.9860:

_

When I talk about the various topics in guild that are brought up on these boards, the responses are totally different.

Some recent examples:

Ascended armour: forums consensus = bad, a treadmill. Guild consensus = could be good, let’s wait and see, only a “must have” for deep Fractal adventures.

Event: forums consensus = laggy, unfair, skews the economy etc. Guild consensus = one of the best events in online gaming ever.

Fractals: forum consensus = elitist, gated, treadmill etc. Guild consensus = excellent fun, innovative and rewarding.

On my guild forums, negative posters just get ignored or asked to stop being so attention seeking.

So your using your guild forum as a measurement against the official forums, to try prove your argument. BUT you also prove that your guild forums are bias and skewed.

“ negative posters just get ignored or asked to stop being so attention seeking.”

Basically if any one has an issue they are told to be quiet???
Well your guild forum consensus is good because people are told to shut up if they say otherwise. Awesome talk about bias facts.

F- try again.

“GW1 was not an MMO, it was a co op RPG, with some multiplayer tacked on.

GW2 is an MMO.

My point is, I fail to see why ppl get upset about a game being what it is supposed to be, an MMO. You obviously said it yourself, you like the “idea” of MMO’s, but to me it seems like you are more into RPG’s."

I love this malarchy. Next thing Cities XL was never an MMO and neither is Eve.

Also, while I’m at it, Portal isn’t a first person because it lacks the shooter part. It’s a 2D puzzle game, obviously.

MMO means massively online multiplayer. RPG means role playing game. Put them toghether and it means massively multiplayer online role playing game. Gear grind is a factor of it that can be turned on off. Fantasy is a factor of it that can be turned on off. What you need is two things : You control a dude, arrange his equipment, have many people online at once.

FPS means First Person Shooter – jumping is optional but generally there (it’s not in doom), aiming down the iron sights is optional but generally there (not in UT), all you need is two things : First person view, and a gun.

Next I expect to hear dawn of war 2 and supreme commander aren’t strategy games because gasp they aren’t starcraft. Obviously only starcraft must represent all strategy games and all strategy games without it’s exact setup must be some sort of “overland control game”.

GW2 was advertised as an MMO. GW2 was advertised as no gear progression. GW2 changed it’s advertisment and we are angry. Stop trying to tell me what I do and do not like based on what you think. Turkey and chicken are both poultry no matter how hard you scream turkey is not.

On a side note – I also love the idea of MobAs but have yet to play a balanced one. Does that mean I also hate mobas?

“I think 80% of people who want this game to be 100% fair for everyone with no gear progression are just lazy, and need a reason to blame some game mechanic for their mistakes and failures in game. They are the “entitled” “I want it now” generation. They are the ones who buy a singler player game, use all the cheat codes for the good weapons or w/e, and are completely bored and done with the game hours later, but yet wonder why.”

Ok this is becoming my favourite argument. We’re entitled for wanting to enjoy our games when we come home from work and life – while that YOU who can farm 14-20 hours a day to are not entitled since you WORK at the game instead. We are totally the entitled ones.

On a side note, the only times I ever cheat at a game is if I get to end game and it asks me to grind up for hours. I think the last time I did this was when NWN2 told me to grind up 5 levels before it let me into an epic dungeon and the only enemies around were respawning raptors.

Rest of the time I play it on the hardest difficulty because I enjoy that. Also, I did fractals up to 5 and all of them are really easy, granted a tad boring due to the really high HP every boss has. I simply did not want to have to repeat that dungeon another 50~ times to get the next tier of armour while feeling like everything could be going faster with the improved stats which I was promised I would never have to farm.

Luculus.9860:

Do people think, in general, that these forums (and game forums in general) are so negative because the people who are really enjoying themselves just play and don’t come here to whine?

Yes

having been one of these for over a decade. I decided when I heard of this game to be more vocal so as to speak for these folks. Since in my past experiences those that cause the most noise ruin games due to their noise and the companies giving into them

GADefence.5634:

“GW1 was not an MMO, it was a co op RPG, with some multiplayer tacked on.

GW2 is an MMO.

My point is, I fail to see why ppl get upset about a game being what it is supposed to be, an MMO. You obviously said it yourself, you like the “idea” of MMO’s, but to me it seems like you are more into RPG’s."

I love this malarchy. Next thing Cities XL was never an MMO and neither is Eve.

Also, while I’m at it, Portal isn’t a first person because it lacks the shooter part. It’s a 2D puzzle game, obviously.

MMO means massively online multiplayer. RPG means role playing game. Put them toghether and it means massively multiplayer online role playing game. Gear grind is a factor of it that can be turned on off. Fantasy is a factor of it that can be turned on off. What you need is two things : You control a dude, arrange his equipment, have many people online at once.

FPS means First Person Shooter – jumping is optional but generally there (it’s not in doom), aiming down the iron sights is optional but generally there (not in UT), all you need is two things : First person view, and a gun.

Next I expect to hear dawn of war 2 and supreme commander aren’t strategy games because gasp they aren’t starcraft. Obviously only starcraft must represent all strategy games and all strategy games without it’s exact setup must be some sort of “overland control game”.

GW2 was advertised as an MMO. GW2 was advertised as no gear progression. GW2 changed it’s advertisment and we are angry. Stop trying to tell me what I do and do not like based on what you think. Turkey and chicken are both poultry no matter how hard you scream turkey is not.

On a side note – I also love the idea of MobAs but have yet to play a balanced one. Does that mean I also hate mobas?

So instead of contributing to the thread, you rather throw a wall of text at me, questioning what I said. Being rude, and condescending little troll, because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t? Is that it?

Ok, I’ll bite, Guild Wars 1, was not an MMO, it is actually listed as a Co op RPG. Anet themselves will tell you that. Go ahead look it up.

Now, when you’re ready to sit at the adult table and contribute constructively, we will all be waiting. Until then, like your mom used to tell you, “If you haven’t anything nice to say, then don’t say nothing at all.”

Sorry, double post due to forum weirdness. See below for response.

DegoLocc.5976:

My point is, I fail to see why ppl get upset about a game being what it is supposed to be, an MMO. You obviously said it yourself, you like the “idea” of MMO’s, but to me it seems like you are more into RPG’s.

to me this post just highlights what is wrong with the genre at this point.

so many people think the only way to make a mmo game is the one model of endless treadmill item grinds for end game. it is not just this one person, you see these same posts every single day. someone is constantly saying “mmo games are all about being a no-lifer who can farm their life away, its obviously not for you.”

the thing that always confuses me about this philosophy though is that since the release of WoW we have seen a flood of these item grind pve games released and the majority of them are in bad shape in under 6 months and dead within a year.

I have seen so many come and go i cannot even remember them all. i honestly cannot.

how is it when the vast majority of mmo games that decide to follow this item treadmill model fail that we still see people saying “its the only way” every single day?

where is the logic in it? It would seem this model is actually very, very bad.

No I don’t agree at all. I believe the people who take the time to post concerns about a game are actually those most invested in a game. What you derogatorily call whining, of course, must be evaluated. Do they represent valid concerns about game direction or not? If so, they are not whining; they are rather the best (most invested) customers of a game company coming to the forums to voice their concerns because the forums are the official medium for this kind of communication. It actually seems pretty straightforward to me.

I agree with the OP. In the game, most people are simply enjoying the game and don’t have time for all the drama and complaints. They are playing and having fun.

I’m not saying that some complaints aren’t legitimate (they are), but the way they are presented isn’t helpful and makes a lot of the posters sound like spoiled children (again, not all of them…some posts are very constructive and point out flaws that others might not consider, so this isn’t a slam against anyone who complains about something).

DegoLocc.5976:

GW1 was not an MMO, it was a co op RPG, with some multiplayer tacked on.

GW2 is an MMO.

My point is, I fail to see why ppl get upset about a game being what it is supposed to be, an MMO. You obviously said it yourself, you like the “idea” of MMO’s, but to me it seems like you are more into RPG’s.

I believe you have already been answered on this one in another thread if I recall. The link between GW1 and GW2 was established by Anet. GW2 was not supposed to be another MMO. It would be a very different MMO and it would stand on the shoulders of GW1.

DegoLocc.5976:

I think 80% of people who want this game to be 100% fair for everyone with no gear progression are just lazy, and need a reason to blame some game mechanic for their mistakes and failures in game. They are the “entitled” “I want it now” generation. They are the ones who buy a singler player game, use all the cheat codes for the good weapons or w/e, and are completely bored and done with the game hours later, but yet wonder why.

They eat their sweets right before dinner and spoil their appetite, eat their carrot on the stick too soon, and think it’s the games fault. Never questioning their own actions, or caring to hear from MMO players of old who know and realize that pure cosmetic endgame gear is simply not enough to continue to play the same character for years.

It is the gear treadmill crowd that is the “I want it now” generation, burning through hundreds of hours of content in the first month of the game as if it was a full time job, then demanding more content because of their insatiable appetite. While the rest of us are still making their way through the salad and antipasto they are lapping up their ice cream and asking for another and yet another bowl because eating anything that fast will not satisfy.

We finally finish our bowl of ice cream and are ready to sit around the table enjoying a cup of coffee and good conversation, but our treadmill friends are insisting that no one will stay at the dinner party unless the host continues to produce round after round of dessert.

It has been my experience that it is the “hardcore PvE” crowd that hits new dungeons fast and hard, which means finding and farming the exploits before the first patch can close them. The hardcore crowd has its share of the “cheat code” population.

However in my opinion, endgame gear progression = good thing, despite what "penny arcade, or some helium voiced cartoon on “extra credit thinks”

Have a great day everyone, and lets all try to be more civil and not personally attack others who are respectful, but have a different opinion.

I don’t understand your references. I expect they are to game media of some sort such as a blog.

I take your point on civility and respect, and apologize for the snarkiness of my last post. Calling people who disagree with you “lazy”, however, is not very respectful either.

I think the thing that you are missing is that the crowd reacting passionately against what looks like the beginning of a gear treadmill are not asking for an ezmode treadmill. They are asking for a game without one at all.

Some games are about risk/reward. That’s only one kind of game, however.

Look at the evolution of the pen and paper RPG. Dungeons and Dragons started the genre off with risk/reward, simulation and strategy as its core. In the nineties, however, writers started experimenting with diceless, levelless, statless games. They were more focused on story and hidden systems, rather than numbers. Some of them were brilliant games, and in my own experience, had much more lasting power than the power progression that was a staple of mainstream RPGs.

Sure, make an argument that an immersion based, story-oriented MMORPG is not financially viable. But don’t dismiss 80% of people who want to play games for a different reason than ever-increasing character power (matched by ever increasing enemy power) as being simply of the “lazy”, “I want it now” generation.

That’s as bad as “players enjoy the game”, “forum goers whine”.

“So instead of contributing to the thread, you rather throw a wall of text at me, questioning what I said. Being rude, and condescending little troll, because I know what I am talking about, and you don’t?

Ok, I’ll bite, Guild Wars 1, was not an MMO, it is actually listed as a Co op RPG. Anet themselves will tell you that. Go ahead look it up.

Now, when you’re ready to sit at the adult table and contribute constructively, we will all be waiting. Until then, like your mom used to tell you, “If you haven’t anything nice to say, then don’t say nothing at all.”"

This thread is completely a stop arguing thread with the people who were complaining that gear grinding should be added yelling as us for telling them you bought a game that said, on the box, -no gear grind or tiers-. Now that ANet was bought out and gear grind was added, we’re asking to get it removed and beign told maybe we just hate a whole genre and how we should think.

And you call me immature. Please, do me a favor, go here and sign up for them, it might help you communicate your points properly in the future. http://www.1-language.com/

As long as we are talking about this : I assume you are new to GW in general. ANet said their game was a CORPG as it had different focuses from the norm of MMOs. I still have the boxes that state MMO right on ‘em, because it is one. Go look it up and tell me how many times you do not find MMO listed with GW. This like saying Swat4 isn’t a FPS because it’s a tactical shooter game. There’s a distinction, but B can be A as well.

Please stop this, the only person being childish here is you. You barge in, tell people what they have to believe, and then tell them cyan isn’t blue because only royal blue is blue and then wonder why they tell you you do not know what blue is.

Gibson.4036:

Greetings, a pleasure to not have to debate with a lil snot for once, lol.
I read your whole post, but have to go soon and don’t have the time to break out everything in qoute’s like you did. But I’ll try to cover what struck me.

Firstly, our experiences obviously differ In the last two days I have seen more “whining” posts from the same 20 people, than I have heard actual constructive feedback supporting their argument, I mean the forum is riddled with, “how could you anet?” and “i’m leaving” threads, that are horribly insulting to the game makers.

In my experience, it’s the “I want it now, because I don’t have time” generation, and “why should you have anything that I don’t just because you play more than me” guys that I find extremely selfish, they want the game to be “dumbed down” and less complex for their needs because they simply “don’t have the time”.

Well there are those of us, that like taking the time, and having things to show for it, that’s why we love MMO’s over some console arcade game. I blame WOW, for the dumbing down of MMO’s and making them easily accessible for a crowd of arcade kiddies where never in the mindset of developers of old classic hardcore MMO’s

Now GW2 is NOT hardcore, IMO it’s already too easy. But, that’s another issue for another thread.

I think in reality people who want a simple, no time involved MMO, or something similar to what gw1 was are not looking for an MMO. I really think they are looking for another game like gw1 which is not an MMO. I don’t know where to tell them to look.

GW2 is a traditional, new age MMO, there is always going to be a sort of progression, and those who have been playing the longest will always have some, SMALL advantage, if players can’t cope with what that means, they should probably jump kitten now.

Another thing, I think you may have me pegged for a PVER, when I am not. Sure I play a lot of this games pve content, because I appreciate how anet executed it, not to say I didn’t wish it was more of a challenge.

I am actually a PVPer, and I love going up against someone who outstats me, makes it that much better when I beat them Being the underdog is really gratifying and I love it.

My main is only 78, with nothing but trash gear at this point, and I still think those who put in the massive effort to get legendary weapons, SHOULD have more than just a cosmetic award. Someday I will have one, but until then, I’ll probablly get lumped but quite a few that already do have one. But I am totally fine with that. That’s one of the charming things about MMO’s that make them different from other multiplayer games.

The media blog I mentioned is some video that has been linked about this topic, where these know it alls claim that “power creep” is bad for games, and basically says all MMO’s should try to be more arcade like League of Legends. They like everyone esle that whines, say they hate power creep, but give no real ideas how to do away with it, without turning MMO’s into standard arcade multiplayer games, which grow tiresome fast,.You can watch the hogwash if you go to youtube and search extra credit powercreep.

The pro item treadmill crowd generally follows a really predictable pattern though.

They come into a game, burn through the content and hit max level as fast as possible, then complain the game is not hardcore enough for them and are very vocal on the forums because they have nothing else to do. The developers get the false impression that they need to cater to these types because they are the majority of posts on the forums (everyone else is actually playing) and then scramble to make the game hardcore for those players.

2 months later a new game is released and the hardcore types move on to the new bigger and better game, and all thats left is the core customers who now hate the game because its designed for hardcore folks.

in 6 months its dying, in a year its dead.

on the new games forum you see “we need more hardcore endgame content. its what mmo games are about. get with the program”

rinse/repeat

Interesting to watch the developing dynamic.

If you like the game you are apparently playing with blinders on and simply don’t understand.

While if you post consistent negativity, you are a shining light to clueless ANet devs who desperately need your input to make thier game successful.

The forums on every game out there shares this same mindset.

Its become so predictable, its downright hilarious.

Couldn’t agree more. I mean, this is common with all MMO’s but GW2 seems to have been hit pretty hard by endless, nonconstructive complaining all across the board.

Raf.1078:

Interesting to watch the developing dynamic.

If you like the game you are apparently playing with blinders on and simply don’t understand.

While if you post consistent negativity, you are a shining light to clueless ANet devs who desperately need your input to make thier game successful.

The forums on every game out there shares this same mindset.

Its become so predictable, its downright hilarious.

lol, yep

Raf.1078:

Interesting to watch the developing dynamic.

If you like the game you are apparently playing with blinders on and simply don’t understand.

While if you post consistent negativity, you are a shining light to clueless ANet devs who desperately need your input to make thier game successful.

The forums on every game out there shares this same mindset.

Its become so predictable, its downright hilarious.

On the nailhead exactly, LOL.

Raf.1078:

Interesting to watch the developing dynamic.

If you like the game you are apparently playing with blinders on and simply don’t understand.

While if you post consistent negativity, you are a shining light to clueless ANet devs who desperately need your input to make thier game successful.

The forums on every game out there shares this same mindset.

Its become so predictable, its downright hilarious.

Other predictable thing:
White-Knights that try to assert themselves as the voice of reason by making gross generalizations.

“If you like the game you are apparently playing with blinders on and simply don’t understand.

While if you post consistent negativity, you are a shining light to clueless ANet devs who desperately need your input to make thier game successful."

I like how it’s more of "If you like the current direction the game took, you’re not kitten

If you didn’t like it, you’re kitten "

The base issue is : What were you expecting? We were expecting what was advertised.

If you buy a CoD, you got what was advertised going in. If they, one day, updated it so it was UT, you did not get what was advertised, you got what someone else wanted. At this, the people who like UT will tell you to shut up, and the people who wanted CoD will complain. Yet, the people before hand who wanted UT were complaining, while the CoD players asked why you didn’t buy UT instead.

This is the issue, the fact most of you don’t see it surprises me to no end.

NaughtyProwler.8653:

eisberg.2379:

NaughtyProwler.8653:

I’ve heard this one before and many others like it before…

SWG NGE
AoC release
Warhammer release
SWTOR beta + release

^ all games that are dead or on life support

Go ahead and try to marginalize the voices on your forum. Go ahead and even ignore them. It doesn’t change anything. This game is headed for the same fate as the ones above if they don’t clean up their act very quickly.

Every, Every MMO forums are heavily biased towards the negative. If you go by the forums for WoW, that game should have died by the end of 2004, and again in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008. 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012.

So one game that is a success vs several that are failures and you want me to think this game will be as resilient as WoW? Really?

This game has a FAR better core content and mechanics compared to the failed games.

NaughtyProwler.8653:

Raf.1078:

Interesting to watch the developing dynamic.

If you like the game you are apparently playing with blinders on and simply don’t understand.

While if you post consistent negativity, you are a shining light to clueless ANet devs who desperately need your input to make thier game successful.

The forums on every game out there shares this same mindset.

Its become so predictable, its downright hilarious.

Other predictable thing:
White-Knights that try to assert themselves as the voice of reason by making gross generalizations.

It’s a generalization, yes, and it doesn’t apply to everyone, but it’s so close to the reality of the situation on these forums here that it may as well be true.

GADefence.5634:

“If you like the game you are apparently playing with blinders on and simply don’t understand.

While if you post consistent negativity, you are a shining light to clueless ANet devs who desperately need your input to make thier game successful."

I like how it’s more of "If you like the current direction the game took, you’re not kitten

If you didn’t like it, you’re kitten "

The base issue is : What were you expecting? We were expecting what was advertised.

If you buy a CoD, you got what was advertised going in. If they, one day, updated it so it was UT, you did not get what was advertised, you got what someone else wanted. At this, the people who like UT will tell you to shut up, and the people who wanted CoD will complain. Yet, the people before hand who wanted UT were complaining, while the CoD players asked why you didn’t buy UT instead.

This is the issue, the fact most of you don’t see it surprises me to no end.

Even COD had weapon and gear progression. I don’t see level 5 guys crying on BF3 forums because the max level 50 has better tricked out guns….

And hitting 50 in any Battlefield game IS a grind.

Grind is good, Imagine starting off BF3 with ALL weapon and gear kits? Get old fast huh? That’s what you guys are trying to do here. That’s why it never works in MMO’s they aren’t meant to be “fair” for all. Just like life, you get what you put into it.

Ebon.7641:

Couldn’t agree more. I mean, this is common with all MMO’s but GW2 seems to have been hit pretty hard by endless, nonconstructive complaining all across the board.

EQ2 boards are virtually identical in the quantity and scope of complaining. Even though a lot of people there have been playing if for over a decade.

Like GW2, its a solid, enjoyable game. Bugs and all.

“This game has a FAR better core content and mechanics compared to the failed games.”

Actually, this game reminds me a lot of WHO when it came out and I had a lot of fun with that as well. . .

Until I got to end game grind.

Ebon.7641:

NaughtyProwler.8653:

eisberg.2379:

NaughtyProwler.8653:

I’ve heard this one before and many others like it before…

SWG NGE
AoC release
Warhammer release
SWTOR beta + release

^ all games that are dead or on life support

Go ahead and try to marginalize the voices on your forum. Go ahead and even ignore them. It doesn’t change anything. This game is headed for the same fate as the ones above if they don’t clean up their act very quickly.

Every, Every MMO forums are heavily biased towards the negative. If you go by the forums for WoW, that game should have died by the end of 2004, and again in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008. 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012.

So one game that is a success vs several that are failures and you want me to think this game will be as resilient as WoW? Really?

This game has a FAR better core content and mechanics compared to the failed games.

I would not really agree. There have been so many failed item treadmill mmo games over the passed years since WoW was released its ridiculous. I honestly cannot even begin to remember them all.

People use flawed logic for mmo games consistently. by far and large item treadmill games fail. some go f2p to stay alive so they dont have to shut down altogether and have managed to stick around for a while, but most simply die off.

realistically speaking it would more logical to state: “the item treadmill model fails the vast majority of time. WoW is simply an anomaly”

while guild wars 2 being mostly free after the purchase price will ensure it has more longevity than games with monthly fees or required item shop purchases, it is my belief they could have been truly great if they made a unique pvp mmo game. now they will just be wow-clone #987684356089.

“Even COD had weapon and gear progression. I don’t see level 5 guys crying on BF3 forums because the max level 50 has better tricked out guns….

And hitting 50 in any Battlefield game IS a grind.

Grind is good, Imagine starting off BF3 will weapon and gear kits? Get old fast huh? That’s what you guys are trying to do here. That’s why it never works in MMO’s they aren’t meant to be “fair” for all. Just like life, you get what you put into it."

Actually, the last CoD game I played was 4 and the guns were pretty much 100% balanced. I only played BF:BC2 and the strongest gun was the starting SMG by far.

Also, there’s a few things – 1: Does everyone QUIT when they get 50? Didn’t think so. 2: Is it required? No, but played do like seeing the pop up that says “new X unlocked”. Generally most of those games don’t give you more powerful equipment, but more variety as you level.

And 3: It takes way WAY less time then 90 hours to max out all the FPS’ I played short of I think blacklight, which might take about 90~ hours.

GADefence.5634:

“Even COD had weapon and gear progression. I don’t see level 5 guys crying on BF3 forums because the max level 50 has better tricked out guns….

And hitting 50 in any Battlefield game IS a grind.

Grind is good, Imagine starting off BF3 will weapon and gear kits? Get old fast huh? That’s what you guys are trying to do here. That’s why it never works in MMO’s they aren’t meant to be “fair” for all. Just like life, you get what you put into it."

Actually, the last CoD game I played was 4 and the guns were pretty much 100% balanced. I only played BF:BC2 and the strongest gun was the starting SMG by far.

Also, there’s a few things – 1: Does everyone QUIT when they get 50? Didn’t think so. 2: Is it required? No, but played do like seeing the pop up that says “new X unlocked”. Generally most of those games don’t give you more powerful equipment, but more variety as you level.

And 3: It takes way WAY less time then 90 hours to max out all the FPS’ I played short of I think blacklight, which might take about 90~ hours.

If you hit 50 in bf3 in under 90 hours, then you are a gaming gawd and I bow before you.
And you’re wrong, cod and bf3 series for example, both have the best guns unlocked at the highest levels, especially the sniper/recon classes.

Conclusion is, progression, or treadmill works, it gives the games longevity, more than if they gave you everything at once, and everyone had the same stuff. Variety and variables are good, especially in MMO’s, it’s good for players, it’s good for game makers.

Gameplayers that disagree are free to go play arcade games until they bore themselves to death and jump from game to game, while MMO players stick with the same games for years, and most pay monthly to play, it’s a proven science, it works, we as players overall like progression. It isn’t going away anytime soon.

“Games X gives you slightly more option at top tier ERGO I AM RIGHT”.

I have not played BF3 or the new CoD games as they just started being stupid (like built in auto aim) to me and didn’t appease to me (oh kitten guess I hate FPSers now!) but I significantly doubt anyone who care if they removed it from there. Hell, we went on with it for years and there’s still quite a few FPS’ without tiered progression in them (can we really call +1 grenade tiered progression?)

You’re free to believe your way of the highway, as hilarious as this is, but please stop pestering me that any game that doesn’t fit your perfect vision must ultimately fail when you forget that 99% of them that fit your vision fail too.