Guild Wars 2

pdavis.8031:

The way the dev put it, it sounds more likely the usable loot drop rates will be increased slightly, while the unusable loot drops rates will remain the same. So you should be getting more of gear for your character, but not losing out on salvagable gear. In the end more loot for all.

First rule of Guild Wars 2: ArenaNet does not buff drops.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Hi everyone,

The article about profession system only presented the idea behind this system and we generally don’t give precise details about these systems unless these details are needed to understand the idea. In this case we can’t share details but we want to reassure players that they’re not going to see changes in loot so visible that some components are going to “rain” or they’ll stop seeing loot variety. It’s more complex than that.

The adjustments to the loot system are fairly subtle and the goals are that, after a certain time, your characters will effectively have more components you can use. So it may take some time for you to see a difference, or not, but it’s not going to feel like a very visible change each time you loot a mob. We want players, in particular new ones or those creating alts, to more often be able to use the items they loot directly or get something that is relevant to their profession. It does not mean that you’ll get less varied loot overall. We’ll keep monitoring the changes to kitten its affects.

Thanks for your early feedback!

The knowledge that this change will probably injure players slowly, like a frog being boiled degrees at a time, does not really make me feel better about this. “Some classes will become poorer, but it will happen so gradually, you won’t notice!” isn’t much of a reassurance. We need more details, please, because this sounds pretty bad right now.

pdavis.8031:

The way the dev put it, it sounds more likely the usable loot drop rates will be increased slightly, while the unusable loot drops rates will remain the same. So you should be getting more of gear for your character, but not losing out on salvagable gear. In the end more loot for all.

Not all loot is created equal. Rare greatswords, for example, are twice the price of rare shields. One class gets three shields, another class gets three greatswords. Yay, more loot for all! Except, wait…

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Hi everyone,

The article about profession system only presented the idea behind this system and we generally don’t give precise details about these systems unless these details are needed to understand the idea. In this case we can’t share details but we want to reassure players that they’re not going to see changes in loot so visible that some components are going to “rain” or they’ll stop seeing loot variety. It’s more complex than that.

The adjustments to the loot system are fairly subtle and the goals are that, after a certain time, your characters will effectively have more components you can use. So it may take some time for you to see a difference, or not, but it’s not going to feel like a very visible change each time you loot a mob. We want players, in particular new ones or those creating alts, to more often be able to use the items they loot directly or get something that is relevant to their profession. It does not mean that you’ll get less varied loot overall. We’ll keep monitoring the changes to kitten its affects.

Thanks for your early feedback!

If it’s that subtle that it will be barely noticeable, why even mention it? Better yet, why even implement it? If it causes a new player to get 2 extra relevant pieces of armor out of 100 drops, is that substantial enough to really be called a “feature”. Seems more like a tweak that could have been resolved behind the scenes with little effort and publicity.

Malthurius.6870:

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Hi everyone,

The article about profession system only presented the idea behind this system and we generally don’t give precise details about these systems unless these details are needed to understand the idea. In this case we can’t share details but we want to reassure players that they’re not going to see changes in loot so visible that some components are going to “rain” or they’ll stop seeing loot variety. It’s more complex than that.

The adjustments to the loot system are fairly subtle and the goals are that, after a certain time, your characters will effectively have more components you can use. So it may take some time for you to see a difference, or not, but it’s not going to feel like a very visible change each time you loot a mob. We want players, in particular new ones or those creating alts, to more often be able to use the items they loot directly or get something that is relevant to their profession. It does not mean that you’ll get less varied loot overall. We’ll keep monitoring the changes to kitten its affects.

Thanks for your early feedback!

If it’s that subtle that it will be barely noticeable, why even mention it? Better yet, why even implement it? If it causes a new player to get 2 extra relevant pieces of armor out of 100 drops, is that substantial enough to really be called a “feature”. Seems more like a tweak that could have been resolved behind the scenes with little effort and publicity.

It’s frustrating that something so “subtle” and dare I say “trivial” is marked as worthy of a blog post for a feature update. I get that this is in the interest of “the invisible hand that runs the economy” but like that invisible hand are we going to get some transparency after this goes live?

Profession loot is a horrible idea for level 80s.
Anything below that and it wont have a negative impact.

So I don’t get it… if the change is so subtle that we won’t notice then why was there a multi-paragraph blog post about it? And how would a change so subtle we don’t notice have the effect of making players get more drops they can use…

those two statements are mutually exclusive. It can only be one or the other… so which is it?

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Therefore, expect the expected nerf to your drops.
Note: If my post gets deleted, at least we will be able to confirm that I am right on this.

tl;dr
Drop rates are getting nerfed but we are being told they are not.

Well, drops are getting nerfed for the likes of me; my engie is fully maxxed and I have no plans to add anything else to him, but I still play him more than half the time because I enjoy playing engie. I get the shaft, casters get a little boost.

Has no one thought of alternatives? Really?

I think that profession loot is a great idea! I love the idea that I would be more likely to come across longbows and greatswords for my ranger than scepters and hammers, for the sole purpose of ‘starting that next set’ or skins. I’m sure there is a way to balance out, within reason and still make sence. I’m sure new players and some, not all, players would rather obtain items that they could possibly use. I know some players have millions of gold and starting that ‘new set’ isn’t on their priority list, but, still, I can see their perspective.

My Ideas

Has no one thought that getting profession loot is a good idea, and it’s the crafting recipes that need adjusting? If certain recipes that have a profound affect on what materials are in demand were adjusted to say (75% current cloth, 25% leather or 25%cloth, 75% metal, etc.) could that not make a better solution? Note: I’m talking about recipes that have a profound affect on the supply and demand and not the everyday recipe.

Or, how about a toggle setting to swap between the two systems optionally. I, as a ranger and someone who doesn’t really care about gold hording etc, would rather play with the option enabled to recieve more, if noticable at all, loot related to ranger.

Thoughts?

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

Then what’s the point of the change?

If it’s not noticeable, then even those leveling up won’t notice that they’re getting more stuff they can use…

Unless it scales down with lvl. It would be a perfect solution.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

Thanks for clearing that up. Will it affect armor too, or only weapons?

Asmodeus.5782:

Unless it scales down with lvl. It would be a perfect solution.

That I wouldn’t have a problem with.

Higher chance at lower levels to get usable gear and then that chance lowers as you gain levels and have less of a need for the items to come via drops.

I want to link to this thread I made on Reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2er5ao/revamping_renown_heart_karma_vendors_low_level/

I feel like a revamp of the Renown Heart karma vendors would be a better alternative than any changes to loot. Also, maybe make Renown Hearts give you fixed weapons and armor you can use.

The funny thing is, if it’s not so noticeable as to be anecdotally noticeable, the same issue the change was meant to solve will still exist. People will feel like they don’t get enough usable loot while leveling. This is obviously compounded by the fact most loot you could theoretically use is salvage trash, and you are always better off buying higher quality loot with statistics you actually want off the trading post.

However, the fears of the OP (and others) that this will disadvantage some professions with respect to the average value of their loot, and advantage others, is still completely valid, as clearly this change will have some noticeable effect when looking from the point of view of a large data set.

Based on what information we have now, which isn’t complete, this change seems as if it’s one of those “worst of both worlds” changes, or maybe just a tradeoff between average loot value imbalance and insufficient usable loot (which isn’t so much a problem with the TP existing, and all…). At best, it seems like it might be an irrelevant change with an effect so small it’s hardly noticeable even if one had a large set of well-controlled data (or the actual original loot values, alongside the new values). It screams “bad design”, but I guess we’ll see how bad.

If the weighting of this system is going to scale with level, then it should scale to zero (no weight) at level 80. There should not be any disparity in loot for max level characters.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

Then there’s no need to implement it, right? If it’s noticeable enough for people to get usable drops while levelling, it’s noticeable enough to hurt higher levels trying to gather resources for things such as ascended gear.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So I don’t get it… if the change is so subtle that we won’t notice then why was there a multi-paragraph blog post about it? And how would a change so subtle we don’t notice have the effect of making players get more drops they can use…

those two statements are mutually exclusive. It can only be one or the other… so which is it?

Yeah, that confuses me too. Only thing I can think is if it’s some kind of algorithm that does a one-note “let’s get your gear up to the level range you’re at” kind of % tweak and then you don’t see it once your gear is up to date?

I don’t know. It sounds like poor Stephane is trying to translate programming speak to layman’s terms without breaking company policy, resulting in a confusing word salad of contradictions.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

So will classes with less valuable gear (like Engineers) receive bonus loot to make up for this discrepancy, or should we all start leveling our Mesmers now?

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

Then the natural question to this would most likely be: Why?

There’s no reason or need for level 80 to be affected by Profession Loot system. Nor there is any actual desire for this system from maxed out levels. Can it be turned off?

But regardless, Why? is the major question at this point. Is it the coding deal? Could it not be separated on such a short notice? If so, do you think it’ll be incorporated in the future, or maybe at least considered?

Yeah, this sounds worse all the time. It’s basically relegating a swath of classes to “don’t run this, you won’t get good drops.”

Should we be saving all champ boxes with the intent of opening them only on one of the favored classes?

does anyone have a nice mesmer farming build for me?

Dev response in short:

It won’t be enough to be noticeable; but also will be enough to be noticeable.

I feel somewhat confused.

Why I think profession loot should not affect level 80s. Wall of text warning.

tl;dr – Profession loot has negligible benefit for level 80s but results in fundamental reward inequality. Choice of which class to play should be based purely on class mechanics and not on economic reward.

Negligible to no benefit at level 80

The main reason to have profession loot is for the player to get relevant gear to their class as drops. However, once you are firmly at level 80, you don’t really need more gear. Dungeon exotics, crafted exotics, temple exotics, and WvW exotics are all very accessible to anybody who needs to gear their 80. Furthermore, ascended gear and legendaries are typically the ultimate goal for most players. Once a player has exotic or ascended or legendary gear, they don’t need to get more, much less the inferior quality loot drops that one would actually get. So profession loot does not have any real benefit for someone trying to gear an 80.

Fundamental reward inequality

First off: let’s face it, different kinds of gear are going to be worth different amounts on the trading post. No matter how supply and demand shift, we’re not going to see a perfectly homogenized set of prices.

Any appreciable effect from profession loot therefore results in unequal loot. If I kill 100 risen thralls on Class A and I kill 100 risen thralls on Class B, profession loot will give me on average different types of drops, which will be worth different amounts.

This is counter to a core design philosophy: play what you want. Under the profession loot system, each class will be getting rewards of different value. This means that economic reward becomes a factor in choosing which class to play. The only factor in choosing which class to play should be class mechanics. Mechanics — weapon sets, skills, F1-4 mechanics, etc. — should be the only thing that differentiates the different classes. Intentional introduction of reward inequality violates this philosophy.

If you don’t agree with Class A getting 1g26s at the end of AC and Class B getting 1g36s at the end of AC, then you shouldn’t agree with profession loot at level 80 either.

What if the changes are subtle and barely noticeable, like some dev comments so far suggest? If you have to kill 1000 risen thralls on average to get that one extra piece of loot that is profession relevant, then what is the point? There is zero benefit at all towards gearing characters, and it still introduces a small reward disparity. Just eliminate profession loot for level 80s and then there won’t be any problems.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Hi everyone,

The article about profession system only presented the idea behind this system and we generally don’t give precise details about these systems unless these details are needed to understand the idea. In this case we can’t share details but we want to reassure players that they’re not going to see changes in loot so visible that some components are going to “rain” or they’ll stop seeing loot variety. It’s more complex than that.

The adjustments to the loot system are fairly subtle and the goals are that, after a certain time, your characters will effectively have more components you can use. So it may take some time for you to see a difference, or not, but it’s not going to feel like a very visible change each time you loot a mob. We want players, in particular new ones or those creating alts, to more often be able to use the items they loot directly or get something that is relevant to their profession. It does not mean that you’ll get less varied loot overall. We’ll keep monitoring the changes to kitten its affects.

Thanks for your early feedback!

Thank you for the response.

When you consider what information should or should not be revealed and when to reveal information, consider the fact that your response doesn’t give precise details, only clarifies. The size of the percentage and philosophy behind the increase may seem a small detail to reinforce but answers the question of economic risk.

If I understand correctly, the sound generated by change in the loot schedule will fall below the sound generated by any other economic sound: profession differences in farming efficiency, the LW, gem shop promotions, etc.

Lol engis get your shields rifles and pistols.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

Doesn’t matter. Unless you’re talking account-bound stuff only, any slight class based loot manipulation is bad.

Unless the rate is far below 1%, there will be classes that are better to play for the purpose of profit.

DarkWasp.7291:

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

Doesn’t matter. Unless you’re talking account-bound stuff only, any slight class based loot manipulation is bad.

Unless the rate is far below 1%, there will be classes that are better to play for the purpose of profit.

And if the rate is below 1%, what’s the point?

DarkWasp.7291:

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

Doesn’t matter. Unless you’re talking account-bound stuff only, any slight class based loot manipulation is bad.

Unless the rate is far below 1%, there will be classes that are better to play for the purpose of profit.

The rate would need to be higher than 1% to produce a noticeable effect. You are better spending your frustration on the farming inequalities between professions that already exist.

edit: With DR as a gatekeeper, the percentage could even get into double digits.

ViviTribal.6310:

That’s it, we don’t know how this will affect the drops we get, so please calm down.

I am calm, merely engaging in discussion with fellow players concerning an upcoming release. Note the lack of hyperbole, all caps, etc in my post.

Open discussion if respectful always a +1 in my book.

These changes should not be applied to lvl 80 characters. There’s enough inequality caused by RNG and stupid design decisions in the game already (I’m looking at you, amount of silk required to craft a complete set of ascended light armor). Making it so greatsword wielding characters have a higher chance to pick up a more valuable greatsword as loot just makes it worse. And if the changes are “subtle” and therefore not noticeable, then what’s the point in them? They either have a visible effect or they might as well not exist.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

There can only be four scenarios for profession based loot:
– It works differently at level 80. Which you are ruling out.
– It’s not producing useful loot on levelling characters. Useful loot meaning loot of an appropriate level, type* prefix and if it binds on equip**. In which case, why make the change ?
– It causes a noticeable difference in income between classes. Which is bad.
– Both of the previous possibilities put together. Enough of a change so that classes have differences in how much gold per hour they can earn doing the same activity, but not enough for leveling characters to reliably get gear they want to use.

*If I’m running a two handed weapon, an offhand drop is useless without a main hand weapon to go with it.

**I try to avoid using any bind on equip weapons while levelling. Because I can get almost the full value of a blue/white item back after I’m done with it, but I can’t with greens or higher because they can’t be resold.

Ok, while I do not have details, the more easier way I could see this take effect but not be noticeable is a system somewhat like this:
var: Chance to roll usable gear = 0% – (aka the base is random stuff)
Check if any loot was usable after rolling
→ if yes, set Chance to 0%
→ if no, increase chance to usable gear +10%

Rinse and repeat…
- This will mean that while rolls are still entirely random, and you will not notice any changes, after X roles of loot, with nothing useful, you will roll something which is useful, and the whole thing resets.

That is a system that isn’t noticeable, yet still makes you notice that you roll some useful gear more often.

Arghore.8340:

That is a system that isn’t noticeable, yet still makes you notice that you roll some useful gear more often.

So it isn’t noticeable, except when it is ?

Also, you need to consider how low the standard for how noticeable it is. Even if it takes a month for people carefully tracking how much gold they earn to be able to prove a difference in income (instead of just random variation), that’s still noticeable the moment they release their results.

If it buffs my cloth drops I’ll be very grateful! I mostly play light armour classes >_>

Xia.3485:

If it buffs my cloth drops I’ll be very grateful! I mostly play light armour classes >_>

But that’s unfair to those who do not like to play the light armor classes.

All that has been said is that at level 80 the change is not noticeable. That does not mean the change is the same for level 2.

75% at level 2. And 0.05% at level 80.

Seera.5916:

Xia.3485:

If it buffs my cloth drops I’ll be very grateful! I mostly play light armour classes >_>

But that’s unfair to those who do not like to play the light armor classes.

All that has been said is that at level 80 the change is not noticeable. That does not mean the change is the same for level 2.

75% at level 2. And 0.05% at level 80.

How is it not fair? Compare the price of leather or metal ascended armor (full set) with a light armor set.

Xia.3485:

Seera.5916:

Xia.3485:

If it buffs my cloth drops I’ll be very grateful! I mostly play light armour classes >_>

But that’s unfair to those who do not like to play the light armor classes.

All that has been said is that at level 80 the change is not noticeable. That does not mean the change is the same for level 2.

75% at level 2. And 0.05% at level 80.

How is it not fair? Compare the price of leather or metal ascended armor (full set) with a light armor set.

Because all classes should have an equal chance to get cloth and leather. Right now salvaging items is the only way to get cloth or leather when you don’t get the super rare cloth or leather in a bag drop. Metals can be mined.

Of precursor crafting come.out and it needs leather, will you cry foul because rangers can get more leather than you?

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Hi everyone,

The article about profession system only presented the idea behind this system and we generally don’t give precise details about these systems unless these details are needed to understand the idea. In this case we can’t share details but we want to reassure players that they’re not going to see changes in loot so visible that some components are going to “rain” or they’ll stop seeing loot variety. It’s more complex than that.

“We can’t tell anything, but you will be happy”.
Ok i get it.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

The adjustments to the loot system are fairly subtle and the goals are that, after a certain time, your characters will effectively have more components you can use. So it may take some time for you to see a difference, or not, but it’s not going to feel like a very visible change each time you loot a mob. We want players, in particular new ones or those creating alts, to more often be able to use the items they loot directly or get something that is relevant to their profession. It does not mean that you’ll get less varied loot overall.

A subttle change may not affect my loot in a dramatic way, but this subtle change applied to every players may have some huge impact on price at TP… Let me guess, “everything works as intended” ?

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

We’ll keep monitoring the changes to kitten its affects.

Please, do me a favor, print this sentence and pin it over your developpers desk. That may help them decide what they need to do.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Thanks for your early feedback!

Yes it’s too early for a feedback, but when the changes are IG, it’s usually too late….

Are we all rerolling mesmer or just going back to GW1 until this blows over?

Xia.3485:

Seera.5916:

Xia.3485:

If it buffs my cloth drops I’ll be very grateful! I mostly play light armour classes >_>

But that’s unfair to those who do not like to play the light armor classes.

All that has been said is that at level 80 the change is not noticeable. That does not mean the change is the same for level 2.

75% at level 2. And 0.05% at level 80.

How is it not fair? Compare the price of leather or metal ascended armor (full set) with a light armor set.

I main an engie, which is fully maxed. I am working on gearing my other classes, but I still play on my engie half the time. I’m inclined to think I’m not the only player who works toward gearing alts when playing their main.

Also, leather and metal armor still requires a HUGE amount of cloth, which is part of the reason that stuff is so expensive. Yes, they need to work on cloth being so expensive, but this is not the way.

SpeedFiend.4521:

Are we all rerolling mesmer or just going back to GW1 until this blows over?

GW1 is always a good option.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

If it is confirmed to be true (which I suppose you just did), regardless of the scale of the effect, then this will probably cause very significant changes in the player base.

So what it seems ANet is saying is that you will get more drops suited to your profession, but not so much so that it seems exclusive. What I take this to mean is:

1. Drop rates for items such as Loot Bags, Fine crafting mats, salvage items and junk items are unaffected.

2. Whenever you get gear as a drop, it has a higher chance to be suited to your profession. For example, if you’re a Guardian and the loot tables decide you get an armor drop, it can be Heavy Armor (50%), Medium Armor (25%) or Light Armor (25%). So odds are you’d get a heavy armor piece, but you will still see other armor drops on occasion. Previously, it was probably a flat 1/3 chance for any of the three types.

This change is pointless for lvl80s. Please make it turn off once a character reaches lvl 80.
I want to be able to play on my main character and get gear that my alts can use.

Some MMOs have an option to get class / profession-related drops or not. I think this would be a good option in GW2

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

I’m sorry, but what you’re saying doesn’t add up. The change is supposed to make things easier for leveling characters, which means that they should be able to notice some difference. Level 80s tend to get several times more loot than leveling toons, especially when farming for it. The way RNG works… any change that can be noticed in a small sample size should be much more obvious in a large sample size.

I’m sorry, but this profession loot system is a stupid idea. There’s no need for it at all, and all it can accomplish is unfairly distributing salvage materials based on people’s classes. This is a big deal, especially with difficult-to-obtain midlevel tailoring materials like cotton and linen where the primary source comes from salvaging while leveling; materials that are incredibly important not only to tailoring, but leatherworking and armorsmithing as well.

The game already showers you with greens and blues throughout normal play. I’ve leveled 6 characters to 80 and did so entirely on drops in the open world. I never once bought gear from karma vendors, off the TP, or from merchants; all of which are options for players that do feel the need to be constantly upgrading their gear as they level. Adjusting drop rates for profession-related gear is completely unnecessary.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Morsus.5106:

Does this mean that it will affect level 80s?

Yes it will but the change will not be easily noticeable.

then it was obviously time well spent to make this change. /sarcasm

if the “effect” is stronger the lower your level is….then tell us! if you don’t, we can only assume the worst (that this is an ineffectual change and thus a complete waste of time)