Guild Wars 2

so we mesmers are less useful now because one of our best utility (reflects) are useless now.. nice job…

David.9807:

Hmm middle tier dps? Thieves do NOT produce more dps than warriors, elementalists without fgs neither. And there are banners, fgj, and a lot of damage increase traits with warrior. QQ

Wut.
Have you ever played S/P thief? It deals like three times the DPS of a full-offense GS war in PvE.

gone are the “play the game your way” days……

ANET dictate how players must play nowadays…

next boss buff : immune to condition when health above 80%…

I’m sitting here laughing at all the necros who think they have comparable dps to warriors LOL.

And every Ele I know going full zerk dies at the slightest mistake. Guess how much dps they do then?

Lishtenbird.2814:

tigirius.9014:

You know what I find interesting as an Engineer?

We’ve been discriminated the most the entire time in this game. It’s a CC/Condition focused class. Everything once could be affected by those two things but they’ve been nerfed to oblivion. No one said a word in our defense from any of the other classes in fact we were denied access to activities because we were told we were not Zerker enough.

So now the shoe is on the other foot while similtaneously they destroy the 1 thing that made turrets a tiny bit useful. The reflect shields. But this time it’s happening to other people not just us, and we’re hearing a great wailing from the deep about it now.

Where were you guys when CC/condi were nerfed hmm? What happened? Now because it’s affecting you it’s important huh?

I don’t get really get it why my post (or all mesmers?) becomes a target of aggression (instead of ANet’s design decisions). I main a mesmer and I feel that it matters, so I post it; you main an engineer – so go and post and cry enough to be heard. When you were nerfed, I haven’t been playing that game, and if I was, I wouldn’t have been maining an engineer anyway, so where’s my fault? As far as conditions are concerned, those are regularly discussed on forums and regularly ignored by devs as presumably too resource-heavy and game breaking.

As a mesmer, I can tell you that our class is being continuously bugged each patch and they even go as far as to put “buff!” and “class balancing!” labels onto bug fixes, or listing the same bug fix three times in three consecutive balance patches differently worded. We cry hard but are not heard… You cry hard and are not heard… And you know what – not being heard is neither mine no yours fault, so why hate each other?

1: My post wasn’t directed at you specifically. 2: Mesmers have an actual burst zerker option with range so cry me a river. 3: Mesmers also have an awesome downed state so again cry me a river. 4: The nerfs to the reflect abilities aren’t limited to the class you are using, it’s an ongoing process of them adding new mechanics in and then making them completely useless, they just started with my class before yours is all.

My post was actually commentary as to why it’s so ironic that suddenly reflect mechanics are the enemy after they just added them to engineer turrets. My point was also not against mesmers but against other players in the community who could care less about this kind of “balancing” when it happens to someone else but the moment it happens to their class that’s when they have a problem with it, and no you’re not the only one I’ve seen this happen in plenty of games forums over the years. Engineers did call for the communities help in trying to sway the developers minds about this kind of thing early on and many many many of them are now gone because they got tired of waiting, there were posts all over the discussion feeds about it. And that same logical fallacy argument was used against them, roll something else. Well I’ll have you know I have three other classes, guess what? It’s still not right that they balance this way.

DeceiverX.8361:

David.9807:

Hmm middle tier dps? Thieves do NOT produce more dps than warriors, elementalists without fgs neither. And there are banners, fgj, and a lot of damage increase traits with warrior. QQ

Wut.
Have you ever played S/P thief? It deals like three times the DPS of a full-offense GS war in PvE.

I think you should stop posting

I’m sitting here laughing at all the necros who think they have comparable dps to warriors LOL.

30/30/0/10/0 GS war – 12.9k dps
30/30/0/0/10 nec (lich form) – 14k
30/30/0/0/10 nec d/f + d/wh – 10.8k

maybe check the info i pasted on the first page?

ICEing.9237:

I’m sitting here laughing at all the necros who think they have comparable dps to warriors LOL.

And every Ele I know going full zerk dies at the slightest mistake. Guess how much dps they do then?

Please stop. I’m going to run out of bingo cards at this rate.

Good old GL/Lupi… How we have come so far as to clear this monster in 17 secs was the last time i saw.. simply because of one thing… reflect. Good old mister Feedback. I missed tanking this and kiting him on my MM when the party was scambling to get up after dropping to the phase 2 aoe

The fun part is when you’ve been attacking a champ since it spawned, but as your dps is lower than the zerker who arrived halfway through you’re lucky to get a white champ bag while he gets exotic.

^ Your damage actually has nothing to do with it. As long as you do enough damage to qualify for a reward, you will get a bag. The type of Champ bag it gives you (Exotic or non-Exotic) is random. It seems to be a 60/40 chance, with Champs in lower-level zones having a higher chance of Exotic bags.

Granted, this still means that the zerker who showed up late could end up edging out the person who arrived before him, but doesn’t have a high damage build.

maha.7902:

you do realise bunker warriors only have middle tier dps right?

*fixed

notebene.3190:

With respect to the OP and Jungle Wurm. No sympathy there. You should not get to one shot a world boss, whether it’s one that has to be killed by the Lambda Lambda Lambda frat house or an easy PUG one. It was something that could be used to disrupt others’ play, and I’m glad it’s gone. There were some Mesmers that were good about waiting until everyone got settled in and used it at about 50%, and that was very nice of them, but at the end of the day, there are too many people that get their satisfaction in life solely out of seeing others’ misery while being immune to the misery inflicted.

But with respect to things like wurm spits and such on normal mobs, I feel bad that you lost a lot of that, especially if it didn’t hurt anyone else.

Except ANet’s solution to the problem was idiotic (yes, my apologies to the dev team, but there is no other word for it).

The problem was the jungle wurm was taking lethal damage from its own reflected attacks. There’s two ways to resolve this: either make the projectiles immune to reflection, or make the wurm immune to the reflected attack. The former renders an entire skill mechanic useless (no damage mitigation, no damage to mob), while the latter merely reduces the effectiveness of a skill mechanic (yes damage mitigation, no or reduced damage to mob).

The “fix” that ANet went with doesn’t just break a skill mechanic for certain fights, it introduces an inconsistency to game design that isn’t explained anywhere in the tooltips; for new players coming into the game they won’t know it was a sloppy fix to address an exploit, they’re just going to see it as a bug that ANet refuses to discuss, much less fix. Furthermore it feeds the growing impression (right or wrong) that anything other than direct-damage and dodge builds are the wrong way to play the game.

So, yeah, it’s great that the exploit was fixed, they just fixed it in a way that disrupts other people’s play in regular PvE, not just during one boss event.

I dont even have a mesmer and even on my engi i rarely use reflects, but this is just depressing. Almost everything is losing its consistency. Whatever tells what projectiles can be reflected and what cannot be reflected in the game? Nothing. Its nowhere.

We as players relied on reflects so much because some bosses rely too much on deadly one-shot projectiles. The developers put both the deadly projectiles of doom and the projectile reflection mechanics into the game. Willingly. It was not a bug. It was not an oversight. Anyone who designs combat mechanics must be aware of every aspect of the combat system, with the path of least resistance in mind first of all.

Lets put a mechanic on this boss.
What are the usual counters for this mechanic?
X ability can counter it very well. Boss is subject to zerging? X ability will be spammed…
Lets rethink the mechanic.

not make X ability work or malfunction on the whims of some invisible guy in the sky that is Anet.

I realy hate inconsistency.

lakdav.3694:

I really hate inconsistency.

Just the other day I made a thread about “punishing content” with a video link. Immediately I got barked at about how everything is too easy (not the point) and it’s all very consistent. I’m happy to see others are seeing the inconsistencies as I have. Because having inconsistent rules was one of the key components in creating punishing content. Which I don’t like inconsistency either. As someone whom uses a Mesmer often, I expect my skills and utilities to work.

So… I play Ele. When i know some boss uses projectiles… and i can’t rely on defenses like Whirling Wind or Magnetic Aura… Should i pick the downed trait, melee the boss with only fire attunement, die, and run again from waypoint? Is that the right mechanic?

ICEing.9237:

I’m sitting here laughing at all the necros who think they have comparable dps to warriors LOL.

And every Ele I know going full zerk dies at the slightest mistake. Guess how much dps they do then?

Likely more than you if they got a single walled fiery rush off.

sMihaly.1492:

So… I play Ele. When i know some boss uses projectiles… and i can’t rely on defenses like Whirling Wind or Magnetic Aura… Should i pick the downed trait, melee the boss with only fire attunement, die, and run again from waypoint? Is that the right mechanic?

Pick the downed trait, melee the boss with only fire attunement, dodge twice, die, and run again from waypoint.

Pandaman.4758:

sMihaly.1492:

So… I play Ele. When i know some boss uses projectiles… and i can’t rely on defenses like Whirling Wind or Magnetic Aura… Should i pick the downed trait, melee the boss with only fire attunement, die, and run again from waypoint? Is that the right mechanic?

Pick the downed trait, melee the boss with only fire attunement, dodge twice, die, and run again from waypoint.

Wow! Thanks! I’m gonna enjoy playing like that now.

Lishtenbird.2814:

• “Some projectiles at Jungle Wurm no longer reflectable.” edit: apparently it happens with eggs at Evolved Wurm as well

Is it known if this was intended for evolved wurm? or just jungle wurm and happened to effect evolved too?

Its taken some element of skill (timed swirling winds to destroy eggs) and replaced it with the need for more numbers and higher dps on mob killing teams.

When 99% of this game is facerolled by dps, removing more varied mechanics is a dissapointing move.

Also the ledge behind crimson wurm that got fixed and became traversable between yellow and blue is now broken and impassable again.

Also when picking up items, the dialogue just says “pick up” now and not “pick up X weapon”

The game has been band aid fixed to the point where unless you have a spreadsheet open you won’t know what effects work on what bosses.

The funny thing is that this was all done to “improve” the focus on the Berserker meta, yet all it has really done is reinforce it. Since the introduction of Ferocity…I’ve seen nothing but an increase in Zerker + optimized group comp.

ICEing.9237:

And every Ele I know going full zerk dies at the slightest mistake. Guess how much dps they do then?

About as much DPS as the dead zerk warriors…

Good zerk ele > good zerk warrior for DPS. There’s really no comparison. Most classes in zerk gear played properly out DPS zerk warriors.

Safari.3021:

Lishtenbird.2814:

• “Some projectiles at Jungle Wurm no longer reflectable.” edit: apparently it happens with eggs at Evolved Wurm as well

Is it known if this was intended for evolved wurm? or just jungle wurm and happened to effect evolved too?

Its taken some element of skill (timed swirling winds to destroy eggs) and replaced it with the need for more numbers and higher dps on mob killing teams.

When 99% of this game is facerolled by dps, removing more varied mechanics is a dissapointing move.

Also the ledge behind crimson wurm that got fixed and became traversable between yellow and blue is now broken and impassable again.

Also when picking up items, the dialogue just says “pick up” now and not “pick up X weapon”

From the May 20th patch notes:

The Great Jungle Wurm in Caledon Forest no longer does full damage to itself from reflected projectile attacks. A certain number of the projectiles are no longer reflectable.

It sounds like they were trying to reduce the effectiveness of reflects in that particular fight, but failed to realize their change affected all wurms across the whole game.

That change from great jungle wurm is Unrelated to the feedback issue with malrona, etc., as I know I’ve said a couple times already. The Malrona, etc, only started the last few days from a different patch.

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

That change from great jungle wurm is Unrelated to the feedback issue with malrona, etc., as I know I’ve said a couple times already. The Malrona, etc, only started the last few days from a different patch.

Strange, I could swear I haven’t been able to reflect her attack since the wurm patch, not just a couple days ago, but I see someone updated the wiki do say as much only a couple days ago.

How does ANet expect to encourage build diversity if they start littering anything that isn’t a zerk build with landmines? “Play how you want, but expect to feel really useless in random situations.”

Pandaman.4758:

From the May 20th patch notes:

The Great Jungle Wurm in Caledon Forest no longer does full damage to itself from reflected projectile attacks. A certain number of the projectiles are no longer reflectable.

It sounds like they were trying to reduce the effectiveness of reflects in that particular fight, but failed to realize their change affected all wurms across the whole game.

But the eggs at evolved only started behaving this way after this june 3rd patch…..

Safari.3021:

Its taken some element of skill (timed swirling winds to destroy eggs) and replaced it with the need for more numbers and higher dps on mob killing teams.

I always thought it was a nice mechanic on ANet’s part to encourage teamwork, just like condi team on husks, but harder. Seeing it removed is just… wrong, just as wrong as was “fixing” power block to hit through Defiance.

A note to game developers: fix your bugs after release if you have the opportunity to do so. But beware that players enjoy the feeling of wielding “unfair” tactics, and taking that away from them can be a mistake if the “unfair” tactic isn’t powerful enough to single-handedly win tournaments.

Why is this thread here? Heavies rule the game, every format of it. Works as intended.

I thought we had that established?

GW2 is a little like having a Dungeon Master that decided to forgo the rulebook.

“Oh, fireball won’t work on that goblin.”

“…Why?”

“Because he looks cooler than the other goblins and is therefore impervious to fire magic.”

ungascarlo.7459:

so we mesmers are less useful now because one of our best utility (reflects) are useless now.. nice job…

you guys are still loved in wvw X)

Aeolus.3615:

ungascarlo.7459:

so we mesmers are less useful now because one of our best utility (reflects) are useless now.. nice job…

you guys are still loved in wvw X)

Except that we hate being veilbots and portalbots and want to tag for loot as everyone else.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Aeolus.3615:

ungascarlo.7459:

so we mesmers are less useful now because one of our best utility (reflects) are useless now.. nice job…

you guys are still loved in wvw X)

Except that we hate being veilbots and portalbots and want to tag for loot as everyone else.

With that role u can tag enemy also just requires communication.
+

Use your reflect + Guardian WoR against omegas.

+

clones spam, always funny to see most players get lost on them.

Aeolus.3615:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Aeolus.3615:

ungascarlo.7459:

so we mesmers are less useful now because one of our best utility (reflects) are useless now.. nice job…

you guys are still loved in wvw X)

Except that we hate being veilbots and portalbots and want to tag for loot as everyone else.

With that role u can tag enemy also just requires communication.
+

Use your reflect + Guardian WoR against omegas.

+

clones spam, always funny to see most players get lost on them.

Trying to explain how boring and demeaning it is to only be wanted for veil/portal is going to be lost on some. Except for a very rare drop/rank-up chest, you do not get very much loot in wvw, especially given the time investment. 1 15min dungeon run can net you more loot and gold than hours of wvw, especially for a mesmer.

Lishtenbird.2814:

storiessave.3807:

Lol. Um. The Jungle Wurm was changed because it could be insta-killed with Feedback.

Would you have preferred letting mesmers who like trolling to ruin the boss every time for everyone else? I wouldn’t, and I main a mesmer. I’m guessing that if they flat-out nerfed the damage instead, it would have been a nerf to the skill itself – and that would affect us with every mob or boss with reflectable attacks. I much prefer the change they implemented.

Do people read?

Lishtenbird.2814:

Feedback insta-killing Jungle Wurm? Make attacks unreflectable instead of tweaking damage.

As a person dealing with code as well I find it rather amusing how people think that you can either nerf a class skill globally, or make a boss skill entirely unreflectable, with no solutions in between.

As a person dealing with code as well I find it extremely sad that ANet coders also think that you can either nerf a class skill globally, or make a boss skill entirely unreflectable, with no solutions in between.

“As a person dealing with code” you would also know that various different solutions have a different time to implement and test. You would also know that time spent means cost in terms of resource allocation and at some point someone has to make the call to either do a quick and dirty fix or dedicate the resources.

You can’t pretend to know “as a person dealing with code” what the situation is for each given feature or bug fix. You can certainly complain and say you don’t like the solution that was chosen as a gamer, but making statements that “as a person dealing with code” you have some insight into how things could be instead is laughable.

Hackuuna.4085:

Lishtenbird.2814:

storiessave.3807:

Lol. Um. The Jungle Wurm was changed because it could be insta-killed with Feedback.

Would you have preferred letting mesmers who like trolling to ruin the boss every time for everyone else? I wouldn’t, and I main a mesmer. I’m guessing that if they flat-out nerfed the damage instead, it would have been a nerf to the skill itself – and that would affect us with every mob or boss with reflectable attacks. I much prefer the change they implemented.

Do people read?

Lishtenbird.2814:

Feedback insta-killing Jungle Wurm? Make attacks unreflectable instead of tweaking damage.

As a person dealing with code as well I find it rather amusing how people think that you can either nerf a class skill globally, or make a boss skill entirely unreflectable, with no solutions in between.

As a person dealing with code as well I find it extremely sad that ANet coders also think that you can either nerf a class skill globally, or make a boss skill entirely unreflectable, with no solutions in between.

“As a person dealing with code” you would also know that various different solutions have a different time to implement and test. You would also know that time spent means cost in terms of resource allocation and at some point someone has to make the call to either do a quick and dirty fix or dedicate the resources.

You can’t pretend to know “as a person dealing with code” what the situation is for each given feature or bug fix. You can certainly complain and say you don’t like the solution that was chosen as a gamer, but making statements that “as a person dealing with code” you have some insight into how things could be instead is laughable.

If this was a backend system, quick and dirty fixes are acceptable, but since this is a front end application, you have to start considering what effects your quick and dirty solutions are having on the players.
When you start building up a ton of quick and dirty fixes, you can make your applcation not user friendly, then you have to do 1000 tiny fixes which are not usually easy to track, because their solutions were implemented in a quick and dirty fashion. Its better to come up with a strong rule groundwork and be consistent.

the battle system is approaching spaggethi code levels, you got skills whose visual effects dont match their effective distances, you got unblockable skills with no tells, you got projectiles that dont reflect. Combat is murkier than ever, and on bosses almost all your skills, dont work.

I don’t disagree with you and in fact there is a plethora of issues with the game that small changes would greatly improve. However, whether a fix is small in terms of resource allocation is not something we can discern and it’s pointless to pretend otherwise.

All we can do as users is speak up about what we like and don’t like — don’t pretend to know what their system is like or how complicated changes are. Look at WvW where people would absolutely love to have unique commander pins for guild raids or a better target marking system. We as users think it’s an easy change but obviously it’s not since it has been 2 years and they still have not changed it.

Hackuuna.4085:

All we can do as users is speak up about what we like and don’t like — don’t pretend to know what their system is like or how complicated changes are. Look at WvW where people would absolutely love to have unique commander pins for guild raids or a better target marking system. We as users think it’s an easy change but obviously it’s not since it has been 2 years and they still have not changed it.

The fact that they haven’t implemented different commander tags does not imply that it would be somehow difficult to do so. You are placing way too much good faith on Anet.

Hackuuna.4085:

However, whether a fix is small in terms of resource allocation is not something we can discern and it’s pointless to pretend otherwise.

Likewise, we cannot assume that only marginal hotfixes are available, and there are no proper solutions ready for a mechanic existing since release. Whatever your resource allocations may be, but having to hotfix a mechanic existing for 2 years is, as you said, “laughable”.

Hackuuna.4085:

We as users think it’s an easy change but obviously it’s not since it has been 2 years and they still have not changed it.

That’s not a problem with easiness. That’s a problem with priority.

It took them a couple of days to fix slaying potions when Scarlet’s Slaying potion came out, while those have been bugged for ages.

It took them a couple of days to fix transparency issue on phantasms with Zodiac gemstore armour. Because those had priority, and these things do not.

Still, it took them more than a year to fix Liadri exploit (which it was as the thread got removed with a “discussing exploits” reasoning) and WvW chests not being awarded, even though they had plenty of time to fix a known issue.

The game is a mess of quick-and-dirty fixes, because ANet has a nasty habit of fixing “something” they broke in a couple of patches after a major release, and then moving to “more important” things. That way, invisible Tequatl, stalled Megadestroyer pre and Taidha not coming to Grenth are still bugged, waypoints are still randomly contested, and it was possible to get undocumented achievements in the first part of April because something was coded there over something else. It totally looks like the game was designed by a certain team at the initial stage, and everything else is being bandaided over that code by new people who know very little of how that monster works in the first place.

Just look at mesmer bugs – there are fixes over fixes over fixes. Blink and iLeap bugging out are “skills following general shadowstep scenarios”. They’ve bugged iWarden, and then they’ve fixed it, and fixed it, and it’s still and even more broken – just like other phantasms whose AI fails a lot because of the underlying issues which were not addressed at a proper point. At some point Temporal Curtain has been hotfixed not to give “too much” swiftness, and no one cares anymore about fixing it properly because the class is not popular anyway.

There should be a reasonal limit to hotfixing. Making Liadri regenerate is a viable hotfix (though a terribly late one), but Jade Maw was not fixed for the same tactics – because it’s been a local hotfix and not a proper fix to lifesteal vs. invulnerable mobs issue. Similarly, hotfixing one projectile at a single bosses will only result in a bugged new boss (or a new bug at a different but similar old boss – like eggs at 3H Wurm), and in total time for hotfixing at some point exceeding time to come up with one proper global solution to the mechanic.

Wow. Some people are so… Just wow.

DPS = Damage Per Second. You guys know that, right? Damage over time.

I have been skimming through this post and keep seeing some guy, or maybe more than one compare some arbitrary number of a Lich Form necro to a warrior. IT’S FRIGGIN LICH FORM! It’s an elite skill. You don’t run around in lich form 100% of the time. Therefore, classes like warriors and thieves are going to out dps you. Jeez, the auto attack alone on my thief can hit for over 6K against NPCs.

I like how you purposely omit parts of my post just to make your post look rational. I already wrote that a 30/30/0/10/0 war is 12.9k, 30/30/0/0/10 d/f + d/wh necro is 10.8k and that the 30/20/0/20/0 war is 12.4k but that lich form nec is like 14k – so at least point out the fact that I gave the numbers for non-lich form too.

The point is, necromancer DPS is perfectly fine.