Guild Wars 2

Hi guys.

Currently I feel that the way retaliation works counters directly some builds while being largely useless against others.

I’d love to see it changed so that the damage scales down for multi-hit attacks (e.g. warrior axe spin) and scaled up against longer cast, single hit attacks (e.g. warrior hammer burst).

Or perhaps return a percentage of the damage guardian receives.

EDIT:

I’ve been receiving a lot of feedback and rebuttals from the community arguing that blind and aegis are counters for longer casting spells, while retaliation and confusion counter faster attacking skills.

But you fail to make the important distinction. when you have a blind or the enemy has an aegis, you’re able to (if you’re good) react by having the aegis/blind removed with an auto attack before executing your command

when you have massive stacks of confusion on or retaliation on enemy, as a fast attacker all you can hope for is to remove the debuff from yourself or wait out the retaliation or simply not attacking. it should be set up in a way that we don’t have to pop cool down removal or stand around waiting for removal.

That is what retaliation suppose to counter: Multi-hit attacks.

Aegis counters strong single attack.

I agree with runeblade.

Normalizing everything just makes your choices meaningless. I think it’s ok if Retaliation is better vs. some moves than vs. others. And anyway, it’s not like you’d ever not use it if you had it at your disposal.

runeblade.7514:

That is what retaliation suppose to counter: Multi-hit attacks.

Aegis counters strong single attack.

aegis ‘countering’ is based on basically hidden RNG. if aegis was meant to counter strong attacks they would put in more skill based aegis skills rather than automatically popping ones.

Dee Jay.2460:

I agree with runeblade.

Normalizing everything just makes your choices meaningless. I think it’s ok if Retaliation is better vs. some moves than vs. others. And anyway, it’s not like you’d ever not use it if you had it at your disposal.

what kind of argument is ’it’s not like you’d ever not use it if you had it at your disposal’?….

at least put forth a reason that’s more thought-driven than ’it’s better than nothing’

Jae.5138:

runeblade.7514:

That is what retaliation suppose to counter: Multi-hit attacks.

Aegis counters strong single attack.

aegis ‘countering’ is based on basically hidden RNG. if aegis was meant to counter strong attacks they would put in more skill based aegis skills rather than automatically popping ones.

There are just as many precision aegis skills as there are auto popping ones.

Heinel.6548:

Jae.5138:

runeblade.7514:

That is what retaliation suppose to counter: Multi-hit attacks.

Aegis counters strong single attack.

aegis ‘countering’ is based on basically hidden RNG. if aegis was meant to counter strong attacks they would put in more skill based aegis skills rather than automatically popping ones.

There are just as many precision aegis skills as there are auto popping ones.

there’s retreat (which almost no one uses to counter single hit attacks)

and then there’s virtue. that’s it.

Jae.5138:

Heinel.6548:

Jae.5138:

runeblade.7514:

That is what retaliation suppose to counter: Multi-hit attacks.

Aegis counters strong single attack.

aegis ‘countering’ is based on basically hidden RNG. if aegis was meant to counter strong attacks they would put in more skill based aegis skills rather than automatically popping ones.

There are just as many precision aegis skills as there are auto popping ones.

there’s retreat (which almost no one uses to counter single hit attacks)

and then there’s virtue. that’s it.

In that case, there are more precision aegis skills than auto-popping ones.

runeblade.7514:

Jae.5138:

Heinel.6548:

Jae.5138:

runeblade.7514:

That is what retaliation suppose to counter: Multi-hit attacks.

Aegis counters strong single attack.

aegis ‘countering’ is based on basically hidden RNG. if aegis was meant to counter strong attacks they would put in more skill based aegis skills rather than automatically popping ones.

There are just as many precision aegis skills as there are auto popping ones.

there’s retreat (which almost no one uses to counter single hit attacks)

and then there’s virtue. that’s it.

In that case, there are more precision aegis skills than auto-popping ones.

oh really? the only ‘precision’ aegis skill that I see (realistically) is only virtue.

And auto popping one… let’s see:

virtue passive
Protective Reviver (you and the ally you revive)
Guardian tango icon Pure of Voice (when removing burning)
Guardian tango icon Valorous Defense (when your health reaches 50%)
Warrior tango icon Quick Breathing (when removing burning)
Engineer tango icon Armor Mods (upon being critically hit)
Mesmer tango icon Prismatic Understanding (gain randomly when you are cloaked)

(copied from wiki)

not only are you wrong, it’s just just silly to think that retaliation is fine where it is just because of the existence of aegis.

for the game to truly become an e-sport you gotta minimize these RNG’s. That’s the same reason why LoL got rid of starting crit chances and such. these are unnecessary RNG’s that add almost nothing but frustration to the game.

the reason why the thread title doesn’t include aegis is that the mechanic is difficult to tweak. it is not for retaliation.

Jae.5138:

runeblade.7514:

Jae.5138:

Heinel.6548:

Jae.5138:

runeblade.7514:

That is what retaliation suppose to counter: Multi-hit attacks.

Aegis counters strong single attack.

aegis ‘countering’ is based on basically hidden RNG. if aegis was meant to counter strong attacks they would put in more skill based aegis skills rather than automatically popping ones.

There are just as many precision aegis skills as there are auto popping ones.

there’s retreat (which almost no one uses to counter single hit attacks)

and then there’s virtue. that’s it.

In that case, there are more precision aegis skills than auto-popping ones.

oh really? the only ‘precision’ aegis skill that I see (realistically) is only virtue.

And auto popping one… let’s see:

virtue passive
Protective Reviver (you and the ally you revive)
Guardian tango icon Pure of Voice (when removing burning)
Guardian tango icon Valorous Defense (when your health reaches 50%)
Warrior tango icon Quick Breathing (when removing burning)
Engineer tango icon Armor Mods (upon being critically hit)
Mesmer tango icon Prismatic Understanding (gain randomly when you are cloaked)

(copied from wiki)

not only are you wrong, it’s just just silly to think that retaliation is fine where it is just because of the existence of aegis.

for the game to truly become an e-sport you gotta minimize these RNG’s. That’s the same reason why LoL got rid of starting crit chances and such. these are unnecessary RNG’s that add almost nothing but frustration to the game.

the reason why the thread title doesn’t include aegis is that the mechanic is difficult to tweak. it is not for retaliation.

You count boon conversion as “auto popping.”

Good luck.

Retaliation really trivialized Flame thrower Engineers thats for sure, to the point of them ceasing to exist.. that to me is a bad mechanic when it destroys classes..

runeblade.7514:

That is what retaliation suppose to counter: Multi-hit attacks.

So it invalidates Rangers, Thieves, Engineers…oh wait, there’s the entire medium armor tier right there. No boon should invalidate an entire class tier. How about we give the medium armor tiers a boon that allows them to ignore the defense of warriors and guardians with direct damage too?

[/quote]

You count boon conversion as “auto popping.”

Good luck.[/quote]

uhhh.. yeah? what part of that screams ‘triggered manually’ to you? i realize i’m not allowed to make personal attacks by the rule of the forum but it really shocks me that you have such a difficult time understanding the difference between an auto popping skill and manually popping skill.

think about it. i’m sure with time, you’ll get it.

You still have to manually activate the skill that converts conditions. The only condition converting that is not manually activated that I can think of is Sigil of Generousity. Well of Power has less control over it but you still have to manually activate it in the first place.

Edit: Whoops! I can’t believe I just thought Sigil of Generousity converted conditions!
In any case, I think this strengthens my point further.

There are some things I’ve definitely noticed about retaliation that should be (in my opinion) changed. Basically, it does damage to you even when you’re not doing damage. For example… Feedback bubble. The last thing I would expect is to take damage for putting up a Feedback bubble because someone with ret is shooting themselves due to reflect. Clones and phantasms… when they do damage I seem to take retaliation damage. I’m sure there are other strange scenarios regarding this that others have seen on other professions.

Dante.1508:

Retaliation really trivialized Flame thrower Engineers thats for sure, to the point of them ceasing to exist.. that to me is a bad mechanic when it destroys classes..

Yep. Flame Jet can easily deal more damage to the user than to the enemy, due to retaliation.
And multiple enemies with retaliation can easily make you kill yourself in something like 6 seconds, just standing still.
And yet some people are fine with this.

You could try watching the boons on your target and not mindlessly spamming AE attacks at groups of players or mobs. there are also many ways to purge or corrupt the boons on opponents.

RyuDragnier.9476:

runeblade.7514:

That is what retaliation suppose to counter: Multi-hit attacks.

So it invalidates Rangers, Thieves, Engineers…oh wait, there’s the entire medium armor tier right there. No boon should invalidate an entire class tier. How about we give the medium armor tiers a boon that allows them to ignore the defense of warriors and guardians with direct damage too?

I don’t think retaliation counters Spirit Rangers, Backstab thieves, and Bomb engineers. I don’t know what you are thinking when you say invalidates the medium professions.

Were you thinking of Longbow Rangers, Dual Pistol thieves and Grenade engineers?

Jae.5138:

You count boon conversion as “auto popping.”

Good luck.[/quote]

uhhh.. yeah? what part of that screams ‘triggered manually’ to you? i realize i’m not allowed to make personal attacks by the rule of the forum but it really shocks me that you have such a difficult time understanding the difference between an auto popping skill and manually popping skill.

think about it. i’m sure with time, you’ll get it.[/quote]He means where is Aegis?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Contemplation_of_Purity

Zerole.7306:

You could try watching the boons on your target and not mindlessly spamming AE attacks at groups of players or mobs. there are also many ways to purge or corrupt the boons on opponents.

First, i can’t watch all the enemies’ boons at the same time.
Second, it isn’t like i have many options. Should i throw a mine or an elixir (assuming i’ve got the necessary trait) anytime i want to use the flamethrower’s autoattack? How many utility slot should i spend just to do a normal autoattack without harming myself too much?
But even then, it isn’t like retaliation is such a rare sight. It is quite easy to spam it, due to light fields and blast finishers.
So, why should i even bother using the flamethrower’s autoattack?
I don’t, exactly as no one else does.

Big attacks are counter-able with aegis, dodge, interrupts, stuns, etc. Small/fast attacks are countered by what specifically? Protection, healing, death shroud, etc. – IE things that also counter big hits. You can’t have it both ways.

I’d say retaliation might be fine as it is. But perhaps it should be a bit harder to achieve retaliation uptime.

As it is now, my mesmer and guardian tend to have retaliation up like 50% of the time or more, and that is without trying at all!

I think it would be nice if we saw a few more foes with flamethrowers in PvE though. To make retaliation shine in some PvE settings. The attack rate of most PvE foes is usually too slow to make retaliation and confusion matter.

runeblade.7514:

RyuDragnier.9476:

runeblade.7514:

That is what retaliation suppose to counter: Multi-hit attacks.

So it invalidates Rangers, Thieves, Engineers…oh wait, there’s the entire medium armor tier right there. No boon should invalidate an entire class tier. How about we give the medium armor tiers a boon that allows them to ignore the defense of warriors and guardians with direct damage too?

I don’t think retaliation counters Spirit Rangers, Backstab thieves, and Bomb engineers. I don’t know what you are thinking when you say invalidates the medium professions.

Were you thinking of Longbow Rangers, Dual Pistol thieves and Grenade engineers?

Retal counters, just on a Ranger alone, and just on our mainhand weapons, Sword, Axe, LB, SB. Aka all of our mainhand weapons except for Greatsword. Retaliation punishes any DPS weapon or any low-damage hitting weapon, which unfortunately almost every Ranger weapon is.

On Engineers? It counts Flamethrower, Pistol, Rifle, Elixir Gun, and Grenades. That’s both mainhand weapons and 3 out of the 4 kits.

On Thieves? Pretty much any weapon set.

That’s the entire medium armor class tier right there, all having most of our stuff invalidated into killing ourselves easily due to a single boon. That’s too OP. It needs to be changed into a set percentage of damage from the damage of whatever you did.

For example, right now I can take 300 damage to the face even if my SB’s normal attack is 100 damage. That’s triple the damage I’m dishing out, and makes it too hard for medium armor classes. If you are using Barrage, that’s 6 hits times 5 players, so 30 hits of retaliation on you. They could all be doing less than 300 damage, and you just took 9K damage in the span of seconds. No other class tiers have to put up with that kind of punishment.

But if we change it to a set percentage of damage, say 33%…that 30 hits, let’s say they all hit for 300 damage each, you’re taking 3K damage instead of the 9K. It’s still punishing, but not enough to where it’s completely wrecking you. It also scales the power of retaliation so it’s not so kitten useless against heavy hitting enemies or players.

RyuDragnier.9476:

- snip -

I would hardly say it invalidates any profession. You’re forgetting any condition damage you’re dealing to your target with retaliation, so to say you’re receiving triple damage back is a bit biased.
In fact, in my experience, I would say it doesn’t even counter a few of the weapons you listed.
- Sword Ranger – nope.
- Longbow Ranger – nope, except for barrage and rapid fire, you can cancel rapid fire.
- Shortbow Ranger – nope.
- Sword thief – nope, except for pistol whip, not sure if you can cancel this one.
- Dagger thief – not really, except for death blossom and possibly the first attack in the chain.
- Pistol thief – nope, except for unload which I believe you can also cancel.
- Rifle Engineer – nope.
(At least, not for me, anyway.)

Looking at the above, I would deduce that there are a few skills that get hurt more than others by retaliation but retaliation is supposed to be used as a counter for taking a lot of hits, that’s the intention of it. One or two skills in a weapon set/kit being more susceptible to retaliation does not invalidate it.
Even using the skills that are more susceptible to retaliation in a timely manner, rather than mindlessly using them on cooldown would have much better results. You still have other skills to use, most retaliations usually don’t last very long and there still are plenty of ways around it such as boon removal, waiting a few seconds before using a big multi-hit attack etc or in the worst case scenario, bail!

It doesn’t end these professions, I won’t deny that retaliation can definitely be very powerful in some situations but if retaliation is a real problem for you, take a look at how you’re playing against it, perhaps trying something different will work for you.

Edit: Having it work as per your idea as to returning a percentage of the damage received would be nice and I kinda like it, although it essentially flips the purpose of retaliation upside down. It would probably be more effective against slow, heavy hitters than vice versa.

Silver.8023:

RyuDragnier.9476:

- snip -

I would hardly say it invalidates any profession. You’re forgetting any condition damage you’re dealing to your target with retaliation, so to say you’re receiving triple damage back is a bit biased.
In fact, in my experience, I would say it doesn’t even counter a few of the weapons you listed.
- Sword Ranger – nope.
- Longbow Ranger – nope, except for barrage and rapid fire, you can cancel rapid fire.
- Shortbow Ranger – nope.
- Sword thief – nope, except for pistol whip, not sure if you can cancel this one.
- Dagger thief – not really, except for death blossom and possibly the first attack in the chain.
- Pistol thief – nope, except for unload which I believe you can also cancel.
- Rifle Engineer – nope.
(At least, not for me, anyway.)

Looking at the above, I would deduce that there are a few skills that get hurt more than others by retaliation but retaliation is supposed to be used as a counter for taking a lot of hits, that’s the intention of it. One or two skills in a weapon set/kit being more susceptible to retaliation does not invalidate it.
Even using the skills that are more susceptible to retaliation in a timely manner, rather than mindlessly using them on cooldown would have much better results. You still have other skills to use, most retaliations usually don’t last very long and there still are plenty of ways around it such as boon removal, waiting a few seconds before using a big multi-hit attack etc or in the worst case scenario, bail!

It doesn’t end these professions, I won’t deny that retaliation can definitely be very powerful in some situations but if retaliation is a real problem for you, take a look at how you’re playing against it, perhaps trying something different will work for you.

Edit: Having it work as per your idea as to returning a percentage of the damage received would be nice and I kinda like it, although it essentially flips the purpose of retaliation upside down. It would probably be more effective against slow, heavy hitters than vice versa.

A passive damage on action skill is balanced because the target can choose to not attack? This sounds like the same silliness the pro-confusion/perplexity people dish out and only makes sense to the ones who benefit from it.

Silver.8023:

It doesn’t end these professions, I won’t deny that retaliation can definitely be very powerful in some situations but if retaliation is a real problem for you, take a look at how you’re playing against it, perhaps trying something different will work for you.

Edit: Having it work as per your idea as to returning a percentage of the damage received would be nice and I kinda like it, although it essentially flips the purpose of retaliation upside down. It would probably be more effective against slow, heavy hitters than vice versa.

When I’m hit hard by retaliation, it’s either because we’re in open field zerg to zerg combat, so we need that barrage to help whittle down the zerg’s health or stop downed from healing themselves, or it’s on a gate of a keep, attempting to keep the zerg off the door. Both times I instantly see the retaliation kick in…but I have to take this high risk scenario because either we’re unable to stop a zerg from attacking something, or we’re unable to keep our keep safe. Either way, I’m using that kitten Barrage because I don’t want to take a chance of enemies surviving that could have died had I used it.

As for hitting harder on the slower heavy hitters, it wouldn’t flip it, per say. It’d be more advantageous for the one with retaliation to dodge the heavy hitter, like it is right now (since it does crap damage against heavy hitters). Sure the heavy hitter could take 2K damage from the retaliation…but that’s still 6K of your health down. Unless you’re specifically running something with a large health pool, that’s at least 20% of your HP right there. 5 big hits like that is enough to take you out, and only encourages dodging…which right now is the status quo for dealing with heavy hitters while you have retaliation up. It really changes nothing other than nerfing retaliation against DPS and buffing it against heavy hits.

Casting a Feedback bubble shouldn’t be fatal to the mesmer that cast it.

@OP your counterargument isn’t exactly true. You control when to apply Aegis and Blind, but the enemy controls when retaliation procs. You were supposed to time blinds and aegis (how well that actually works in PvP is a different question though) such that they don’t get cleansed by auto attacks.

Retaliation works fine in PvP, but along with confusion, it’s utter garbage in PvE. That’s where the change needs to happen.

@Volkon – It’s essentially a game engine problem there, as soon as a projectile gets reflected, I imagine the either a new copy of the projectile gets created or the current one “changes ownership” and direction so when you’re reflecting projectiles, you’re essentially turning enemy’s projectiles into your own ones which means it’s damage you deal and is why I can use Wall of Reflection to proc projectile finishers to remove conditions from myself and why the reflected projectiles scale with your damage stats and not the enemy’s. I’m pretty sure you knew all that already and what you said does make a whole lot of sense, it would just be a hard thing to work around.

@Ryu – I see what you’re saying and it does suck to be in that situation but you even said in your post that it’s essentially a risk/reward weigh up and you decided that the reward is worth the risk, else you wouldn’t be using the barrage. It sounds like you’re wanting to make retaliation less effective against dps but the reality is, retaliation, along with weakness and protection, are the reliable counters to dps, assuming your dodges are used up. Dps is too effective in this game as it is, if you ask me and I’m completely fine with having various ways of dealing with it, personally.

@Substance E – I think it’s a mechanic, along with confusion, that encourages counter-play. I, personally, don’t use many characters that use confusion but when I encounter it, I would be foolish to simply mash skills with it on me. It’s better that I work out some kind of counter play, in most cases, I pop some kind of condition removal, however, sometimes I just have to cancel attacking, I take less damage that way. Sure, I deal less but I stay alive longer in most cases.
Retaliation can (albeit not always, however that’s the same with conditions) also be dealt with in a similar manner, saving up multi-hit attacks for better timed moments or making sure you’ve got some kind of boon removal if you can is a valid counter play. It makes combat less mindless, require attention and essentially brings it down to the player who plays better wins.

I don’t see damaging someone through boons any less passive than damaging someone through conditions, each require use of skills/traits and each have ways of being dealt with. Conditions are actually worse, really, considering the rate, volume of application and duration far outweigh the available ways to deal with them.