Guild Wars 2

EDIT: A little context – I came back to GW2 at the end of 2016 after 3.5 years away, so I wasn’t aware of how long ago ascended had been introduced, or that there had been some firm promises by devs that there are no plans to make a new maximum tier. My worries are assuaged! Feel free to continue the discussion if you like though :-)

Ascended is really the frozen limit of expense/difficulty of entry for players with less than a 4-digit /played. Keeping legendary to prestige skins and non-mechanical perks is a good choice, as is wedging in “special” harder-to-obtain ascended items that are easier/cheaper to stat-swap, like the blood ruby and caladbolg items.

This is just to say that, psychologically, there is really no room for another gear tier above ascended. If one were added, just the knowledge that it was there, and that a person would have to grind even harder than they did for ascended to have gear that was as good as any in the game… that knowledge would be enough to get me to leave, I think. The game would have utterly lost its soul at that point. One of the core things I have always loved about the Guild Wars games was that importance decreased as the expense and difficulty of acquiring items increased. Ascended is already a drift away from that ideal; breaking from it entirely would be over the line. It would be just another grinder at that point, however beautiful and challenging.

I think Anet knows this, and the profusion of prestige skins and the nature of legendaries is reassuring, but I just wanted to come right out and say it anyway.

I think you’re worrying about something that’s never going to happen.

They finished introducing ascended equipment in September 2013, when ascended weapons were added (and that was almost a year after they started, with rings in November 2012).

That was 3 and a half years ago and since then they’ve finished Season 1 of the Living Story, had a series of festivals, had Season 2 and started Season 3 and released an expansion.

If they were going to add a new tier of equipment I think they would have done it before now. But they haven’t even increased the level cap (which they could have done without adding new gear), instead they aimed for ‘horizontal’ progression in the form of new specialisations, masteries (which are highly situational) and of course new skins and stat combinations.

Edit: But also a new tier wouldn’t necessarily have to be harder to obtain. Exotics are arguably easier to obtain than rares because they’re available in so many more places. Rares are drops, if you’re lucky, or crafted (more expensive than masterwork but less than exotic) and of course can be purchased with gold. Exotics can be obtained in all of those ways but are also bought with karma, WvW badges, dungeon tokens and other currencies with relatively few other uses and come from achievements and things. They could add a new tier and make it as widely available as exotics, so players have a lot of choices in how to get it and it’s reasonably affordable.

Ascended was intentionally made harder to get because, believe it or not, that is what players were asking for. There is a significant chunk of players who breezed through the levelling process in a couple of months, got a full set of exotics and then found themselves asking “what now?” they asked, and asked and asked (and in some cases demanded) for Anet to add new tiers, claiming the game would die without it and there was no motivation to play and all the things people usually say when they want something added to a game.

So Anet responded by adding Fractals – a self-contained dungeon they could grind to their hearts content and rare, hard to obtain equipment for them to get from it. They dragged out the release: at first only rings were available, then they gradually added pieces. And it actually seems to have done the trick.

I’m sure some people did get frustrated and went back to games where they could watch their “gear score” constantly going up so the game will permit them to play new content. But a lot of people do seem to have stayed.

(And the funny thing is they then went and made ascended easier to obtain by introducing crafting and ways to buy it from vendors. Under the original system I’d never have gotten any ascended equipment I could use, as it is I’ve got nearly a full set without feeling like I had to put myself out to get it – crafting the chest and trousers was expensive but I wanted the skin so it was worth it to me.)

What makes you think this will ever happen? Ascended gear came one year after launch and since then there wasn’t even rumors or talk in any kind of another gear tier

Well that’s good to hear! I only came back to the game at the end of last year; I wasn’t sure how “new” ascended stuff was.

The thing that made/makes me nervous is the explicit promise that legendaries will always have max stats; it implies the possibility of moving the goalposts of what is max.

I see no difference

The role that gear treadmills play is a mandatory one for MMO’s. They give players something at the top something to do and those players introduced to the higher tiers reduces the amount of players needed to complete old content thus keeping it active.

In addition it has to be earned thus content must be introduced in order for the player to be able to earn it in the first place. Dungeons died cause it’s all skins and raids will die to if their maximum reward sits at legendary armor. They can’t keep it afloat just adding different legendary armor skins alone.

This game doesn’t have a gear treadmill but don’t fool yourself thinking that progression of that nature doesn’t exist. Say you had your full set of ascended before HoT. Well first off new prefixes were added with four star combinations, masteries like chalk acid and the downskill for PVE play, infusing your trinkets for WVW and Fractals, and many other examples exist.

In the end it’s exactly like the mounts in gw2 as that mechanic can’t be left out either. However instead of mounts we have swiftness, speed shrooms, skills, traits, runes, sigils, convuluted builds like centaur healing, nuhoch wallows, waypoints, gliding, leyline gliding,jump pads, thermal vents, and not only things I may have forgotten but all the things they’ll add in the future. You have all that just to answer the simple solution solved by mounts which was no doubt in the long run more time, energy, and resources for them and the player. The same is true for armor progression but not as bad instead of the simple gear tiers we have something much more complicated. A living armor system were additions are made and improved upon as the game moves forward. No doubt since adding slots to trinkets is already a thing Anet will add it to armor. With HoT we got the ability to change prefixes in the forge and we were supposed to have armor. So flushing additional resources into improving our gear is the current method with new prefixes being added with patches.

I take the waypoints and other mechanics over having to wait 10 minutes for a gryphon to carry me over to another city just to explore an adjacent area any day.

LouWolfskin.3492:

I take the waypoints and other mechanics over having to wait 10 minutes for a gryphon to carry me over to another city just to explore an adjacent area any day.

Ah but that’s the best part of MMO you meet new and interesting people while doing events and in gameplay. However when you wp think of all the interesting people you miss by teleporting. Of all the movement types in this game I only really have an issue with waypoints they don’t fit into lore well and you miss that character interaction while traveling cause everyone will be traveling the roads as well. You see more people in the back allies of even HoT maps than you do in the open areas of core not because of population in the maps but because fewer waypoints mean you have to travel.

I never said i use waypoints to such a level, just that i personally like the travel mechanics that we have, most of the time i actually run the maps to find events wherever they my be hidden.

Mounts are nice if you have gigantic maps, which we don’t in Guild Wars, the maps are relatively small in comparison and Mounts, at least for me, wouldn’t add to anything, they’d detract just as much as you claim waypoints would.

But most people i see actually use waypoints, at most, to reach an event or a meeting point from which to start exploration faster than by running from City A to Area X-25.

Will there be people that “abuse” the system for it’s convenience? Sure, those will always be there, but i don’t see it becoming the status quo.

Doam.8305:

I see no difference

The role that gear treadmills play is a mandatory one for MMO’s. They give players something at the top something to do and those players introduced to the higher tiers reduces the amount of players needed to complete old content thus keeping it active.

In addition it has to be earned thus content must be introduced in order for the player to be able to earn it in the first place. Dungeons died cause it’s all skins and raids will die to if their maximum reward sits at legendary armor. They can’t keep it afloat just adding different legendary armor skins alone.

There’s a difference between earning and grinding, and that difference matters. We earn masteries by going all over the world and completing diverse challenges. Yes, some of those challenges are grindy but most of them are more strategic or performative in some way. You only have to do the thing once, or a few times, sucxessfully, instead of eighty hojillion times only to get kicked in the face with all your work being worthless five seconds into the next expansion. I did in fact feed Hungry Hal 50 times, but if every mastery point was like that I would not still be here.

Other games have gear treadmills. You will notice that I’m not playing them. Mastery treadmills are a much better strategy.

And really, the vast majority of raiders just want a prize to commemorate their victory, that they can flash around in towns and everyone who sees them will know what they accomplished. Knowing that they also have +1 damage over non-raiders is not necessary, and the ones for whom it is necessary, well, they never left WoW and they’re not about to now.

Sister Saxifrage.7361:

Well that’s good to hear! I only came back to the game at the end of last year; I wasn’t sure how “new” ascended stuff was.

The thing that made/makes me nervous is the explicit promise that legendaries will always have max stats; it implies the possibility of moving the goalposts of what is max.

I think you need to consider that in context: Firstly it was 3.5 years ago when maybe they were thinking that if they ever made an expansion they’d have to introduce new tiers, because that’s how it works in other games.

At the time legendaries had exotic stats so players were thinking they’d have to make one and then make an ascended weapon to transmute it with to get top tier stats. And since Anet were claiming ascended would be about 1/2 as difficult as legendaries that wasn’t a very appealing prospect. So they were seeking to reassure players that would never be the case, at the time or in future.

(Combined with stat swapping, which legendaries couldn’t do before then, it also effectively put a cap on the grind for new weapons – make a legendary and you know you’ll never need to get another weapon of that type.)

It was only really when HoT was announced and they said they wouldn’t be raising the level cap or adding new equipment tiers that we knew that wouldn’t be an issue. Even so I’m not saying we can be 100% sure it will never, ever happen even if GW2 runs for 20+ years. Just that it’s not been like other games where new tiers come out with every expansion or big update. They haven’t added new tiers yet and have said they won’t do it with the next expansion either.

In my other MMO when someone comes back after a break the first advice they’re given is always “you’ll have to grind up to the new ‘level cap’ (not called levels but it’s the same idea) and replace all of your equipment because it’s obsolete now”. I really like that when someone comes back to GW2 we can tell them “your level 80 is still max level, your exotic equipment is still good enough for all the content, just focus on what you want to do”.

(Yes there’s new stat combinations to choose from, elite specialisations and masteries, but stats and specs are optional and masteries are highly situational – you’re never going to be told the reason you can’t survive in the HoT or LS3 maps is because you don’t have the newest ones.)

Doam.8305:

LouWolfskin.3492:

I take the waypoints and other mechanics over having to wait 10 minutes for a gryphon to carry me over to another city just to explore an adjacent area any day.

Ah but that’s the best part of MMO you meet new and interesting people while doing events and in gameplay. However when you wp think of all the interesting people you miss by teleporting. Of all the movement types in this game I only really have an issue with waypoints they don’t fit into lore well and you miss that character interaction while traveling cause everyone will be traveling the roads as well. You see more people in the back allies of even HoT maps than you do in the open areas of core not because of population in the maps but because fewer waypoints mean you have to travel.

They fit into the lore very well. One of the LS2 missions ends up with results that show that they can adjust the waypoints to keep Mordremoth at bay. Because a few waypoints had been destroyed by the dragon due to the ley energy it uses.

And the benefits now are if a friend needs help, we don’t have to factor in travel time. We can just pop over and help. Someone in map chat says they need help with a boss on the other side of the map, I can be there in a minute instead of ten minutes.

Masteries aren’t even a treadmill – they’re a horizontal progression. Closest thing I can think of to a mastery approaching a Treadmill is the Nuhoch Wallows→Magma Vents, but even then it’s tenuous (Wallows are instant. You can glide out of Vents)

A treadmill requires constant improvement just to maintain your current performance relative to the opponents. That’s not happening in Guild Wars 2. Every ability gives you a distinctive tool to use. The only 4-stat set better than its 3-stat counterparts is Viper’s, and that’s because of the mechanics of conditions. The rest just make spreading stats around more efficient. A theoretical Power, Precision, Ferocity, Condition Damage stat set might be better than Berzerker’s, but only for weapons/builds that deal hybrid Condition and Power damage.

It doesn’t matter what other MMOs do or how other MMOs feel. What matters is how GW2 handles things:

• Ascended was added shortly after release because ANet (and many, many players) thought exotic was too easy to acquire.
• In the over 3.5 years since, we’ve had major overhauls to the game, including an expansion, and no additional tiers of gear.
• ANet has added masteries, which are another sort of progression. Unlike other games, you can get around without masteries, they are trivial to obtain without grinding, and you can engage in all forms of combat without being at a significant disadvantage (there are minor exceptions for raids and specific gates for certain stories).

In short, while this game has progression, it has nothing like the forced treadmill of other games, where it’s tedious just to keep pace with your previous progress relative to the content.

Sister Saxifrage.7361:

Doam.8305:

I see no difference

The role that gear treadmills play is a mandatory one for MMO’s. They give players something at the top something to do and those players introduced to the higher tiers reduces the amount of players needed to complete old content thus keeping it active.

In addition it has to be earned thus content must be introduced in order for the player to be able to earn it in the first place. Dungeons died cause it’s all skins and raids will die to if their maximum reward sits at legendary armor. They can’t keep it afloat just adding different legendary armor skins alone.

There’s a difference between earning and grinding, and that difference matters. We earn masteries by going all over the world and completing diverse challenges. Yes, some of those challenges are grindy but most of them are more strategic or performative in some way. You only have to do the thing once, or a few times, sucxessfully, instead of eighty hojillion times only to get kicked in the face with all your work being worthless five seconds into the next expansion. I did in fact feed Hungry Hal 50 times, but if every mastery point was like that I would not still be here.

Other games have gear treadmills. You will notice that I’m not playing them. Mastery treadmills are a much better strategy.

And really, the vast majority of raiders just want a prize to commemorate their victory, that they can flash around in towns and everyone who sees them will know what they accomplished. Knowing that they also have +1 damage over non-raiders is not necessary, and the ones for whom it is necessary, well, they never left WoW and they’re not about to now.

What is or isn’t a grind is completely up to the player you can’t sit here and tell other people what they consider to be and what they consider not to be a grind.

Thus my statement stands the people in other games earned their gear just like we earned our masteries and some may think its a grind over there just like some may think its a grind over here. They’re serving the exact same purpose in the end and opinions aside they are both equal methods for a developer to use. Horizontal or vertical progression they are both progression however this is game doesn’t quite have horizontal progression as seen with elites, infusions, prefixes, and masteries.

I find it interesting that, with the OP’s concern of further gear tiers, no one linked or pointed out Mo’s promise to us at the HoT Pax unveiling that “your max level characters, with your top tier gear, today are still going to be your max level characters with your top tier gear tomorrow.”

He made that commitment to us, the players. Granted, this can change over time, but currently that commitment still stands and we have not heard anything to the contrary.

https://youtu.be/gxLkfXwxLTs?t=17m55s

Asc armor was released years ago why this post now? What makes you think that now we will get a higher tier (stats wise).

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I find it interesting that, with the OP’s concern of further gear tiers, no one linked or pointed out Mo’s promise to us at the HoT Pax unveiling that “your max level characters, with your top tier gear, today are still going to be your max level characters with your top tier gear tomorrow.”

He made that commitment to us, the players. Granted, this can change over time, but currently that commitment still stands and we have not heard anything to the contrary.

https://youtu.be/gxLkfXwxLTs?t=17m55s

This also fits with the philosophy of end game gear in GW1. As someone that came to GW2 from GW1 I never really considered that GW2 would be any different. Although most other MMO’s don’t work this way, so that was probably a kittenumption to make on my part, but it did turn out true in the end.

zealex.9410:

Asc armor was released years ago why this post now? What makes you think that now we will get a higher tier (stats wise).

OP hasn’t played GW2 in a while. I’m guessing they have played other MMOs, where this would be a concern.

Moonyeti.3296:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I find it interesting that, with the OP’s concern of further gear tiers, no one linked or pointed out Mo’s promise to us at the HoT Pax unveiling that “your max level characters, with your top tier gear, today are still going to be your max level characters with your top tier gear tomorrow.”

He made that commitment to us, the players. Granted, this can change over time, but currently that commitment still stands and we have not heard anything to the contrary.

https://youtu.be/gxLkfXwxLTs?t=17m55s

This also fits with the philosophy of end game gear in GW1. As someone that came to GW2 from GW1 I never really considered that GW2 would be any different. Although most other MMO’s don’t work this way, so that was probably a kittenumption to make on my part, but it did turn out true in the end.

As a GW1 player as well, I also expected similarly in GW2. And such was mentioned in pre-release interviews. How they felt max level gear should be easy to acquire, not about gear slog, etc etc. My sensibilities were rather offended with the introduction of ascended and I remember the very heated arguments about it. Previous statements, arguments, and feelings aside, as long as they stick to this commitment, I can deal.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS… please stop with tiering the gear. I was excited to see ascended gear come out but now I still don’t even have full ascended gear on any of my toons. I don’t have time or the interest or the desire to grind gold for the smallest upgrade. Just make new skins please.

Instead they should introduce infusions that go into ascended armor with increasing stat bonuses

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

He made that commitment to us, the players. Granted, this can change over time, but currently that commitment still stands and we have not heard anything to the contrary.

Before GW2 launched, Colin said the opposite. They had planned for increasing the level cap at some point, which they said would likely be done in an expansion.

There’s no point in increasing the level cap anymore however, since they can just simulate it instead.

Xultair.7954:

Instead they should introduce infusions that go into ascended armor with increasing stat bonuses

That was the original plan, back when they were trying to cater to the endgame crowd that had nothing to do. With season 3 making the accessories more common, if they continue on that path, ascended will become with new standard, as in what they balance general content for. Then they’ll move on to expanding infusions, runes and sigils, plus they still need to find a reason for ascended jewel crafting and cooking.

Legendary Grenth.3561:

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS… please stop with tiering the gear. I was excited to see ascended gear come out but now I still don’t even have full ascended gear on any of my toons. I don’t have time or the interest or the desire to grind gold for the smallest upgrade. Just make new skins please.

Stop with tiering the gear? I guess you are new to the game. The current gear tiers havent changed for almost 4 years.

I will stop playing immediately if additional tier is added after ascended…

But imo April fool is still 10 days to go, isn’kitten bit early to start with?

Healix.5819:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

He made that commitment to us, the players. Granted, this can change over time, but currently that commitment still stands and we have not heard anything to the contrary.

Before GW2 launched, Colin said the opposite. They had planned for increasing the level cap at some point, which they said would likely be done in an expansion.

There’s no point in increasing the level cap anymore however, since they can just simulate it instead.

No, what was said was that it wasn’t off the table. They never said they definitively would or would not regarding level cap and armor cap. Which is not the same thing.

Regardless, statements were made prior to launch that best in slot gear should be easy to obtain. That the game wasn’t going to be about chasing that next level of gear. Which is why a lot of GW1 players were extremely upset with ascended. It wasn’t until after ascended came out that the statements were made regarding an increasing power curve. There was enough opposition to that, that eventually we were told that ascended would be the last tier (well before HoT), but we would see stronger infusions in the future that would progress the power curve in a more gentle fashion. I remember making a statement in an argument regarding that announcement that even that would be fine, as long as there was a definitive end to it at some point. That’s what people wanted, an end point. No more constant invalidation of hard work.

We won’t even get into the debate over the ‘easy to obtain’ statement.

If i would ever want to see a new tier of equipment, then only an indirect upgrade of Accended Gear to Epid Gear that is same as powerful as like Ascended Gea,r but has also the quality of life feature, that you can exchange out of combat anytime the gear stats as you like, just without all the terrible expensive bling bling and grind around them that legendary items have… so that peopkle which want the quality of life improvement, but whioch don’t care about visual fluff can get what they want through upgradign Ascended Gear to Epic Gear.

Thats somethign that NOBODY can say that somethign like this would be any kind of “gear treadmill” It would be just a positive comfort enhancement to already existing gear that comes for alot lesser costs for it, compared to legendary items, minus all the bling bling