Guild Wars 2

What thread is this happening in?

I agree totally with the OP and have been saying this on the forums for ages…

Players who just sPvP can change there build/equipment/traits in 10 mins at no cost whatsoever. So balance changes are great for them, it mixes the game up, makes it fun and is no bother whatsoever.

However, the PvE & WvW players get there equipment/traits/builds turned upside down and can cost them major amounts of gold/time to adjust.

ITS TOTALLY UNFAIR!

But all ‘balance’ changes are going to be applied game wide as it will cost too much apparently to balance all 3 types separately.

arjeidi.2690:

What thread is this happening in?

He said warrior forum, but there hasn’t been a dev in there since who knows how long.

The thread is in the sPvP forums. Everyone that played any type of PvP, may it be WvW or sPvP, must have anticipated that conditions will be nerfed in the future.

With the naive “I invested so much time” you could argue against every balance change, even against balance changes that are vital for the game.

FirstBlood.7359:

The thread is in the sPvP forums. Everyone that played any type of PvP, may it be WvW or sPvP, must have anticipated that conditions will be nerfed in the future.

With the naive “I invested so much time” you could argue against every balance change, even against balance changes that are vital for the game.

Ah ok, yeah found the thread there, post made on Sept 3rd.

Maybe in PvP conditions need tweaks to be less dominant. I won’t argue that as I have no pvp experience, its not my gameplay. PvE is and conditions don’t need to be tweaked and brought down there. If anything, they need the opposite.

Except I don’t trust ANet to recognize that. Oh they may be doing splits a bit more often now, but before the game released they said they learned from GW1 and there would be a full split of PvE/PvP. There wasn’t. Months after release and there still wasn’t.

So I don’t trust them in regards to balancing. Their own fault for not sticking to their word. Then again, not living up to promises is what ANet excels at…

Considering that two major nerfs to necro’s were spvp only (dhuumfire & grasping dead) people shouldn’t be too worried. They are spliting more often now. The failure of condi in pve is due to design and has very little to do with numbers. Condi’s stacking in duration or hitting caps is what makes condi poor. My engi’s pumps out damage when solo but in groups it seems my dps is less then 10% of solo.

balance does not exist, spvp only barely exists, WvW will shortly not exist… Only PVE exists in this game and anyone who says different is desperately clinging to a false hope.

I edited my post. I was confused, I saw the post on the spvp forums but it was about the warrior. Just got mixed up in the head because I was so frustrated with how they frequently balance this game based on the whims of pvpers, who make up a very small majority of the player base.

The ones who are actually buying gems to get infinite axes to chop 500 elder logs a day (this isn’t me it’s just an extreme example) are the very players who often get shafted because the vocal minority that is the pvp player base will never stop incessantly whining until their precious “meta” is balanced. Cool, tell that to the guy who just spent laurels and gold to make a rabid ascended weapon. I know it might seem like a minor setback, but to that player it was a lot of time invested, only to then read that their damage source is getting nerfed because the pvp scene is “upset” with condition spam.

Jon Sharp posted recently that they would NOT be splitting balance updates between sPvP, PvE and WvW because it takes too much time, effort and is too costly to do.

So future balance changes are going to be applied across all GW2.

@Decklan
I’ve been saying that for months … but it’s not as if they’ll listen worth kitten. Fact is, the tiniest minority of this game’s players have a disproportionate say as in what gets buffed or nerfed. This would be frigging fine, except that said minority gets into snit-fits over most anything extant in-game. Which bleeds over and frigging well shags the PvE/WvW communities.
Hell, I mainline Condition or Condition-tank specs … how do you think I feel?

Agree with the OP.
If i had 1 copper every time I saw an sPVP player say " Change 100b "….

This game should have different balance between PVP and PVE. Just like GW1.
As long as it doesn’t – people will be angry.

Decklan.7540:

Yes, I am referring to the upcoming condition nerf that J. Sharp is talking about over on the spvp forums.

Get your facts strait. I play a cond Necro in PVE the last cond nerf was for a necro and was PVP only. It was stated today in a stream with the Spvp dev that cond will get nerfed but for PVP only

“Necromancer:
Grasping Dead: This skill now applies two stacks of bleeding instead of three (PvP only).”

From 9/3 patch
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-September-3-2013/first#post2780744

Harper.4173:

Agree with the OP.
If i had 1 copper every time I saw an sPVP player say " Change 100b "….

You’d have about 3 copper. It’s the pve crowd that typically cries about 100b warriors.

btw here is the stream that it was mention on.

watch, listen, learn
http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2guru/c/2883614

Lurch.9517:

balance does not exist, spvp only barely exists, WvW will shortly not exist… Only PVE exists in this game and anyone who says different is desperately clinging to a false hope.

Except for they have more people in sPvP now than they ever did in Guild Wars 1. They also have more people playing WvWvW now, than they had active players in Guild Wars 1. This was mentioned recently in an interview.

erm most of the balance isnt affecting pve. they balance pve separately. pve is way better off than wvw as spvp balance is destroying wvw for example. here the issues:

so warrior needed a buff in spvp, as they were pretty awful there. anet gives them a lot of buffs and now they are op in wvw.they are out of control. and they wanna buff them even more!!check out the spvp forums and u know which classes will get buffs again.

mesmers are amazing in dueling and a jack of all traits in dueling, but we are very very limited in wvw. clones die to fast(=no aoe dmg because shatters fail), the builds that are great in spvp, are terrible in wvw. now we have a hard time to tag, if we wanna be able to deal dmg, we will have no toughness, we have no clear role in wvw apart from portal/veil and tw bots. its a mess and as mesmer is my main this is discouraging. but we wont get buffs because of kitten spvp. stupid 1v1 balance screws mesmer the most, as we are great duelers. this is not balance anet!!!

then ele is not in a good spot in spvp, but in a pretty decent spot in wvw. now they wanna buff staff ele…..great new wvw meta coming up!

necro is out of control in spvp and wvw, but before the buff because of again kitten spvp, they were already strong in wvw. now they are op faceroll class.

thief, is amazing in 1v1 and in wvw roaming they are pretty op, but not taken seriously in a zerg. they wont get buffs or nerfs at the right places, because again spvp.

balancing around 1v1 is so wrong anet!!!!!wake up!

Wait, someone ran a condition build in PvE? What happened to everyone running zerk gear?
BTW for PvE condition dmg builds to be useful they need to rework the way conditions work. Nerf/buff really won’t work unless they do some crazy PvE-only buff like increase all condition scaling by 500% or increase all mobs’ armor to 3k+.

I am glad people agree with me here. Everytime I see, this is imba, this is too OP, this is that, it’s generally from the spvp crowd. And I know I am casting a broad stroke here, but if they want things to be truly equal, maybe they should force spvpers to work just as hard to get gear, work just as kitten the new crafting cap to get ascended weapons, and work just as hard to farm mats to stay competitive…then let’s see how eager they will be to ask for nerfs for a specific class/build.

Meglobob.8620:

Jon Sharp posted recently that they would NOT be splitting balance updates between sPvP, PvE and WvW because it takes too much time, effort and is too costly to do.

That was about oncoming ranger nerfs. Of course, Necro did get a split.

Decklan.7540:

I am glad people agree with me here. Everytime I see, this is imba, this is too OP, this is that, it’s generally from the spvp crowd. And I know I am casting a broad stroke here, but if they want things to be truly equal, maybe they should force spvpers to work just as hard to get gear, work just as kitten the new crafting cap to get ascended weapons, and work just as hard to farm mats to stay competitive…then let’s see how eager they will be to ask for nerfs for a specific class/build.

Ahhh, but game was designed with diffrent type of gameplay in mind altogether, where top gear is easy to get in multiple ways, experimentation with different classes/builds is not only welcomed but encouraged, so your whole “problem” is non existant.

Changing their minds on it 2 months after release cannot magically erase design that was developed for 5 years.

You just nailed one of the reasons why introducing new tier of gear, especially in abbysmal rushed way it was introduced is kitten ing some of us off and a very bad idea.

They are literally asking us to spend months “working” on something that can turn to trash in 1 patch. Because game wasnt designed or envisioned that way.

I run a necro condition build in WvW. To be honest, they have been nurfed enough. The ranged classes have been degraded so much that I now mostly use either a warrior or guardian In PvE. This is despite the fact I’m fairly useless at playing warrior in WvW and nowhere near the best guardian.

The present situation is so bad that I’ve ran into enemy players who I could hardly damage at all.

PvE is stupidly easy, and conditions there are sketchy already with the stack limits. This is a silly complaint.

WvW concerns are more valid but hopefully both being PvP modes, balance concerns between the two can be better compromised.

Decklan.7540:

It takes exactly 2 minutes to roll a new character for spvp and gear them up entirely for free. If you feel your profession is currently weak in that setting (warrior) then just click log out, make a new profession, spend exactly 2 minutes to get through the beginner story, then click on the swords icon on the top of your screen. You now have whatever current FOTM profession is wrecking house fully leveled, geared up, and ready to go.

When a balance patch hits, just rinse and repeat.

Now, take this same similar situation with someone who has spent countless hours leveling up their character through Tyria, ran numerous dungeons, farmed copious mats for ascended weapons, spent months doing dailies, monthlies, fractals and guild missions just to get ascended jewelry and then subsequently have that professions damage source nerfed. How bad would that make you feel?

Yes, I am referring to the upcoming condition nerf that J. Sharp is talking about over on the spvp forums. I have a horrible feeling that this nerf will spill over into the world of PvE. So all that nice pretty rabid/ramapgers/dire/etc. gear that you have been working on could be completely unmerited.

Mr. Sharp, ask yourself this. Log into your game and see how many people are asking for a condition spec profession as their last spot in a dungeon or fractal group. Head over to a champion farm group and advertise yourself as a condition damage spec and see how many group invites you get. I know I am in the minority here running pve as a condition spec, but it’s a gameplay type that I enjoy, and when I read some quotes on how you guys see damage, you saw it as two different types, “damage and conditions.” If you wanted us to all just roll zerker gear in pve you should of said, “there is one type of damage in this game, and that is full zerker dps!!!!! YOLO”

There are more people in your game participating in PvE then there are people who participate in sPvP, but it is always the wishes of the pvpers that are heard, and right now it’s their wish to tone down the power of the condition spam meta. That’s great, but before we tone down this insane condition spam meta that impacts the pvpers so greatly, realize how it will effect the pve setting.

And yes, I understand that this condition damage shave that is inevitably coming might be minor, but it might be more than that. It might be a decrease in duration, stack application, damage. Traits might be moved around or removed entirely. Stats on gear might be changed entirely. I don’t know, but the fact is, no one really knows. It’s just this day that is looming in the future, and I know it will be bad day for a condition damage player in a zerker spec world.

That is all.

Hardly anyone plays spvp – 3% I think was last I read.

MMO’s work this way – Buff a class, then nerf it to buff another one keeping people playing, rerolling, and having fun/frustrated. This is MMO’s (ALL). It’s how it is.

Less than 17000 people have tried out soloqueue.
Somehow I doubt that the reason for that is all because of balance.

Wryog.5073:

Less than 17000 people have tried out soloqueue.
Somehow I doubt that the reason for that is all because of balance.

Balance, lack of game “modes”, ( Team Deathmatch, Capture the Flag etc ) lack of connection to PvE like in GW1 etc…list goes on. SoloQ is SyncQ for the most part, which creates a huge problem because of the lack of dedicated PvP’ers. It was around in GW1 Random Arenas as well, but given that the PvP scene was very, very, very active, I don’t ever really remember it getting out of hand like it is here.

In short, there’s just no incentive for most people. I myself, would love to delve into the PvP scene, as I feel I missed out on it in GW1 since I was predominately a PvE’er for the near seven years I played. By the time I started I was only left with RA/FA/JQ and the occasional HA. But again, it’s just a flat-out lack of incentive to do so in this game, and until something drastic happens, it’ll stay the same as is.

Combat in PvP is quite a bit different from PvE in that there are significant costs and difficulties in landing any attack at all in PvP, while you can attack virtually 100% of the time in PvE if you position and build right.

A lot of condition applying skills in sPvP are too strong because as single attacks they deal an enormous amount of damage over their duration. If you’re only going to get to land a handful of attacks you have to make them count, and hits that deal 6-7k damage over their duration as a single hit are going to be incredibly powerful in PvP. On the flip side, that power is not particularly important in PvE, since instead of dodging while those bleeds and burns tick you’ll be attacking non-stop with skill 1, which makes up the bulk of your damage.

I don’t see a problem with nerfing some of the worst condition stacking offenders in PvP and letting it carry over to PvE. Even if it moves some power down on those characters, you can put that power back in places that won’t cause issues in sPvP, such as attack skill chains.

Similarly, condition damage would benefit immensely in PvE from strengthing it in places that are not dangerous in PvP (like attack chains) so that you could leverage the fact you’re attacking all the time into stacks of ticking dots. You could also fight the condition puke meta with better access to stronger condition removals.

In any case, I don’t see a problem with not splitting every change. If it will have a big effect on PvP but only a minor one on PvE, you’re not gaining much by splitting the skill and might as well just go ahead with it.

Yep, the core issue is that the combat system is built around dodging. But PVE mobs do not dodge. Instead they have health pools that make PVP burst specs tickle.

Decklan.7540:

I edited my post. I was confused, I saw the post on the spvp forums but it was about the warrior. Just got mixed up in the head because I was so frustrated with how they frequently balance this game based on the whims of pvpers, who make up a very small majority of the player base.

The ones who are actually buying gems to get infinite axes to chop 500 elder logs a day (this isn’t me it’s just an extreme example) are the very players who often get shafted because the vocal minority that is the pvp player base will never stop incessantly whining until their precious “meta” is balanced. Cool, tell that to the guy who just spent laurels and gold to make a rabid ascended weapon. I know it might seem like a minor setback, but to that player it was a lot of time invested, only to then read that their damage source is getting nerfed because the pvp scene is “upset” with condition spam.

Excuse me?

I have spent over $1,000 in this game and I am predominately PvP.

Don’t judge PvP players for not supporting the game because that is a complete lie.

they already nerfed condis once just after launch and guess what they still haven’t fixed that one. It’s bad when you’re zerker thief does more condi damage than your fully condi build engineer!

I tried cloaking today to run past a mob in Orr and I have +10% boon duration, did the whole smoke bomb + big ole bomb combo, it lasted all of 2 seconds. Let me guess, the 5 seconds of stealth was a little too much for people to handle on a class that didn’t have it on all the time? seriously that needed to be nerfed since the last time I played months ago? really?

smh I agree totally OP it’s just getting stupid now. smh

Ensign.2189:

I don’t see a problem with nerfing some of the worst condition stacking offenders in PvP and letting it carry over to PvE. Even if it moves some power down on those characters, you can put that power back in places that won’t cause issues in sPvP, such as attack skill chains.

Watch this ensign.

I don’t see a problem with nerfing some of the worst zerk offenders in PvE (warriors) and letting it carry over to PvP. Even if it moves some power down on those characters…

You and I both know they won’t be adding any new attack chains to skills like engineer pistol 1, or ranger shortbow 1, or, well you get the drift. Instead it will just be a flat condition nerf. How would you feel if I told you I thought warriors did too much damage in full zerk in PvE and they should be nerfed in that regard. Never mind the fact that it would spill over into PvP where they are already low tier.

The argument works both ways. Stay out of our game and we stay out of yours, why should you be the ones that dictate class balance though just because you guys are angry with the condition meta in your pvp games?

what if …
there is a spvp only buff that gives all characters in spvp extra health?

Balancing around PVP? What balance? What are you whining about. We get pos updates every month or more, while PVE gets new content/updates EVERY TWO WEEKS.

What do PVP players get? Nothing! Absolutely nothing! Even in WVW, you still get badges, and now the new crafting mats. What does SPVP get?

NOTHING.

Balancing around SPVP. What brand are you smoking dude.

Decklan.7540:

I am glad people agree with me here. Everytime I see, this is imba, this is too OP, this is that, it’s generally from the spvp crowd. And I know I am casting a broad stroke here, but if they want things to be truly equal, maybe they should force spvpers to work just as hard to get gear, work just as kitten the new crafting cap to get ascended weapons, and work just as hard to farm mats to stay competitive…then let’s see how eager they will be to ask for nerfs for a specific class/build.

10/11 months ago I gathered all my exotics only for the ascended bullkitten to come out.
Pardon me if I don’t feel any inclination to play PvE all day after previous efforts were invalidated at the QQ of lack of progression some players who have probably never touched foot in the game again after 8 months gave.

Having said that my gear still gets updated ocassionally.
So in that regard I meet the horsekitten qualifications you desire of having spent time to gear. They still need to do balance.
Mind you it is not actually hard or work, gearing up in GW2 is pretty kitten easy (as it should be) it’s just time-gated and somewhat tedious.
Though given the money I’ve thrown at this game previously I’d find any notion that I need to “work just as hard” ridiculous.

Spvp balance isn’t the reason conditions have an issue in PvE.

Chase.8415:

Excuse me?

I have spent over $1,000 in this game and I am predominately PvP.

Don’t judge PvP players for not supporting the game because that is a complete lie.

On what did you spend $1,000 pertaining to Spvp?

Lurch.9517:

balance does not exist, spvp only barely exists, WvW will shortly not exist… Only PVE exists in this game and anyone who says different is desperately clinging to a false hope.

You must be playing another game surely not GW2 , WvW is the most played in this game atm hence the 1-2 hour ques at night , sPvP still holds the best times for game time since you can hop in at 5 am in the morning or 12 pm at night and find games/players.

A reality check is in order

As for the spvp balance if I remember corectly the last patches did pretty good job of splitting pve from pvp skills with different cooldowns and such. Where do people get that there is only PvE left ?

Stop changing kitten.

/problemsolved

Its not like they are going to completely remove anything, its just bringing things in line with each other.
It certainly won’t break your build nor will it force you to completely remake your character. It will only make other options more viable.

Lurch.9517:

balance does not exist, spvp only barely exists, WvW will shortly not exist… Only PVE exists in this game and anyone who says different is desperately clinging to a false hope.

this… sad and true

You don’t understand, OP.

GW2 will be an “esport” at any cost. Probably even as far as losing their business entirely. Someone at Anet is obsessed with esports, that’s for sure.

Poe’s law; I cannot tell if the previous statement is serious or not.

You don’t think conditions are in anyway unbalanced and need to be changed? lawl.

My warrior gets dropped faster by a condi nec/mes than a GC thief most times, and the nec and mes are more tanky than me.

Kaizer.7135:

You don’t think conditions are in anyway unbalanced and need to be changed? lawl.

My warrior gets dropped faster by a condi nec/mes than a GC thief most times, and the nec and mes are more tanky than me.

In PvE conditions suck already.

Some people are having difficulty reading.

OP isn’t saying conditions are balanced in pvp. OP is saying conditions are weak in PvE so if they’re going to be nerfed for pvp, that change should only be for PvP.

Kaizer.7135:

You don’t think conditions are in anyway unbalanced and need to be changed? lawl.

My warrior gets dropped faster by a condi nec/mes than a GC thief most times, and the nec and mes are more tanky than me.

Mesmer can’t be more tanky than warrior. Don’t tell me that you are some weird open beta weekend berserker warrior?

arjeidi.2690:

Some people are having difficulty reading.

OP isn’t saying conditions are balanced in pvp. OP is saying conditions are weak in PvE so if they’re going to be nerfed for pvp, that change should only be for PvP.

They are different game modes, with different situations, that must be balanced differently. Because trying to balance them together just makes both of them awful.

I still haven’t used my ranger since the shortbow and pet nerf not in pvp not in pve never its just bad. Can they at least get 1200 range in pve so their not totally dead weight.

Neural.1824:

You don’t understand, OP.

GW2 will be an “esport” at any cost. Probably even as far as losing their business entirely. Someone at Anet is obsessed with esports, that’s for sure.

Bullkitten. Their pr department is obsessed with it, and they think mentioning it in every interview is good free marketing, and that’s it. Compared to the dev time that went into pve, spvp is a complete afterthought.

Not that it matters much, because pvp has design faults that are deeply rooted in pve: downed state with crappy interrupt/stealth skills, flashy overdone animations and a lack of teamplay dependency because of their “all classes can do anything mantra”.

Those things, which may work well in pve, are anathema to competitive pvp. Yes, people who bought it for the pve play spvp too, hence the user statistics, but the general esports scene doesn’t seem to care about the game anymore, and I don’t see any reason why it should.

Junkpile.7439:

Kaizer.7135:

You don’t think conditions are in anyway unbalanced and need to be changed? lawl.

My warrior gets dropped faster by a condi nec/mes than a GC thief most times, and the nec and mes are more tanky than me.

Mesmer can’t be more tanky than warrior. Don’t tell me that you are some weird open beta weekend berserker warrior?

I main a thief and bought this game about 2 months after launch, stop assuming. I don’t take toughness anymore, since Conditions have made it obsolete, I take Vitality over it now. So yes, I’ve met mesmers tankier than me but still dish out insane amounts of damage. Not to mention most of their clones/phantasms can absorb most of my damaging hits.

wintermute.4096:

Neural.1824:

You don’t understand, OP.

GW2 will be an “esport” at any cost. Probably even as far as losing their business entirely. Someone at Anet is obsessed with esports, that’s for sure.

Bullkitten. Their pr department is obsessed with it, and they think mentioning it in every interview is good free marketing, and that’s it. Compared to the dev time that went into pve, spvp is a complete afterthought.

There is dev and there is dev.

ANet early in their game development seems to have come up with a toolkit that allow non-programmers to create event chains and similar. This allow non-programmers on staff to come up with all kinds of events and similar, as long as they do not need addition to the server or client code. And this is why we are seeing the living world churn, as their artists (mappers, modellers and so on) can hammer out events and achievements without programmer involvement.

I suspect that ANet has very few actual programmers on staff. And those they have were until recently tied up with looking for ways to eliminate culling. Only now that the culling issue have been dealt with do we see progress being made on long promised features that require actual programming on the client and server.