Guild Wars 2

Not only is this a poorly-thought out idea in general but it wouldn’t even solve the “problem” that OP mentioned.

Ranged weapons are weak, excluding staff ele which is uber powerful.

Azhure.1857:

maha.7902:

Dual.8953:

RedStar.4218:

Aside from roleplay reasons, why do you want to play with a ranged weapon ?

I’m honestly asking this question. And I don’t want to hear bullkitten like “because it’s what is told in the description” or “well I don’t. But if I did …”
The real reason. It can be anything, but I’m really interested in it.

Personal preference of combat style. Just like in any game players like the freedom to choose what they like and not be considered inferior for it. In fighting games some players like Grapplers, some like Rushdown fighters and some like Zoners, yet all of those playstyles are considered valid. Here we have a single playstyle that’s considered valid and a multitude that work but server no practical purpose in PvE.
This is a game that is supposed to promote creativity and personal preference in it’s combat. Is it right for over half the game’s combat options to be so weak they’re considered by some unviable?

Personal preference falls under role play.

Ah.
Right.
I must have missed the fine print on the game packaging when I purchased this game. This game is only meant for players who enjoy being Meta pawns. Do not purchase if you choose to play how you want in “Open World” content. Again, this game isn’t actually for you – its for meta players only. All others get the kitten out.

’Cause you know some of those fine print lines are just so well hidden.

I don’t know what frothing at the meta has anything to do with what I just said, I’m just saying that if you want a ranged play style then you’re just role playing as a ranged dps since there’s not any practical reason to chill in the back line besides your preference, i.e desire to role play. Vent your irrational meta hatred elsewhere thank you.

Maybe the problem is too many boons, might stacking and stacking in general and some classes making bosses/dungeons jokes. Maybe that is what really needs to be looked at seeing how the meta players are so rabidly against anything new. Makes me wonder why?

People say ranged is a crutch yet isn’t Zerker gear wearing, melee stacking burning down the boss asap pretty much a crutch? After all you’re just burning down the boss asap so you won’t have to really do much other than burn down an HP punching bag.

you don’t get it.

we DO want something new.

we DON"T want a rehash of the same old.

we want something new and challenging and interesting.

changing the range of boons as the original topic of this thread is about would cause an immense set of balancing issues that would require time effort and money to work through.

dont “fix” fix what is not broken. I don’t want Arena Net wasting their time and ours trying to balance something out. when they could be making a new map, or dungeon, or whatever.

maha.7902:

Dual.8953:

RedStar.4218:

Aside from roleplay reasons, why do you want to play with a ranged weapon ?

I’m honestly asking this question. And I don’t want to hear bullkitten like “because it’s what is told in the description” or “well I don’t. But if I did …”
The real reason. It can be anything, but I’m really interested in it.

Personal preference of combat style. Just like in any game players like the freedom to choose what they like and not be considered inferior for it. In fighting games some players like Grapplers, some like Rushdown fighters and some like Zoners, yet all of those playstyles are considered valid. Here we have a single playstyle that’s considered valid and a multitude that work but server no practical purpose in PvE.
This is a game that is supposed to promote creativity and personal preference in it’s combat. Is it right for over half the game’s combat options to be so weak they’re considered by some unviable?

Personal preference falls under role play.

Not letting you dodge the point that easily. This game’s PvE is sorely lacking in balance at the high end. The proposed change won’t fix the balance but it would make things a tad more level. Ideally PvE should have situations where both long and short range have practical applications at the top level. As it stands currently, the only situation where ranged becomes practical is when you’re class has no other option (I could argue that D/x Ele is still ranged as even Lightning Whip has more that double the range of melee and no combo tree) and a couple bosses that you pretty much can’t stand beside.
This change wouldn’t damage the meta in anyway but it would ideally alleviate some of the elitism among the pugs.
If you feel like replying to this, I ask you, why are you so dead set on keeping PvE as it is currently? Why do you not want more viable choices in the meta?

Dual.8953:

maha.7902:

Dual.8953:

RedStar.4218:

Aside from roleplay reasons, why do you want to play with a ranged weapon ?

I’m honestly asking this question. And I don’t want to hear bullkitten like “because it’s what is told in the description” or “well I don’t. But if I did …”
The real reason. It can be anything, but I’m really interested in it.

Personal preference of combat style. Just like in any game players like the freedom to choose what they like and not be considered inferior for it. In fighting games some players like Grapplers, some like Rushdown fighters and some like Zoners, yet all of those playstyles are considered valid. Here we have a single playstyle that’s considered valid and a multitude that work but server no practical purpose in PvE.
This is a game that is supposed to promote creativity and personal preference in it’s combat. Is it right for over half the game’s combat options to be so weak they’re considered by some unviable?

Personal preference falls under role play.

Not letting you dodge the point that easily. This game’s PvE is sorely lacking in balance at the high end. The proposed change won’t fix the balance but it would make things a tad more level. Ideally PvE should have situations where both long and short range have practical applications at the top level. As it stands currently, the only situation where ranged becomes practical is when you’re class has no other option (I could argue that D/x Ele is still ranged as even Lightning Whip has more that double the range of melee and no combo tree) and a couple bosses that you pretty much can’t stand beside.
This change wouldn’t damage the meta in anyway but it would ideally alleviate some of the elitism among the pugs.
If you feel like replying to this, I ask you, why are you so dead set on keeping PvE as it is currently? Why do you not want more viable choices in the meta?

And why do you want to change it?

If range was equal dps to melee, then everyone would just range because it would be less risk and equal reward. Why would anyone learn how to dodge when they could just camp longbow/rifle/staff/mesmer gs and be equal? How boring would that be?

Sunshine.4680:

Maybe the problem is too many boons, might stacking and stacking in general and some classes making bosses/dungeons jokes. Maybe that is what really needs to be looked at seeing how the meta players are so rabidly against anything new. Makes me wonder why?

People say ranged is a crutch yet isn’t Zerker gear wearing, melee stacking burning down the boss asap pretty much a crutch? After all you’re just burning down the boss asap so you won’t have to really do much other than burn down an HP punching bag.

You say that as if we aren’t using defensive boons, utilities and positioning to keep ourselves alive. I would argue ice bows and fiery greatswords are crutches, but simply using offensive builds and trying to kill bosses isn’t a crutch at all, and it’s not like wearing PVT and ranging would make it any harder.

Blix.8021:

Dual.8953:

maha.7902:

Dual.8953:

RedStar.4218:

Aside from roleplay reasons, why do you want to play with a ranged weapon ?

I’m honestly asking this question. And I don’t want to hear bullkitten like “because it’s what is told in the description” or “well I don’t. But if I did …”
The real reason. It can be anything, but I’m really interested in it.

Personal preference of combat style. Just like in any game players like the freedom to choose what they like and not be considered inferior for it. In fighting games some players like Grapplers, some like Rushdown fighters and some like Zoners, yet all of those playstyles are considered valid. Here we have a single playstyle that’s considered valid and a multitude that work but server no practical purpose in PvE.
This is a game that is supposed to promote creativity and personal preference in it’s combat. Is it right for over half the game’s combat options to be so weak they’re considered by some unviable?

Personal preference falls under role play.

Not letting you dodge the point that easily. This game’s PvE is sorely lacking in balance at the high end. The proposed change won’t fix the balance but it would make things a tad more level. Ideally PvE should have situations where both long and short range have practical applications at the top level. As it stands currently, the only situation where ranged becomes practical is when you’re class has no other option (I could argue that D/x Ele is still ranged as even Lightning Whip has more that double the range of melee and no combo tree) and a couple bosses that you pretty much can’t stand beside.
This change wouldn’t damage the meta in anyway but it would ideally alleviate some of the elitism among the pugs.
If you feel like replying to this, I ask you, why are you so dead set on keeping PvE as it is currently? Why do you not want more viable choices in the meta?

And why do you want to change it?

If range was equal dps to melee, then everyone would just range because it would be less risk and equal reward. Why would anyone learn how to dodge when they could just camp longbow/rifle/staff/mesmer gs and be equal? How boring would that be?

Boring for you maybe, but for me I love motion in combat, actively changing my position to avoid an onslaught of enemy attacks, especially when the floor lights up like a dance floor with AoEs. Standing in the corner is what I find boring, no matter how much active defense I perform. Some people like playing ranged and they’re frowned upon currently.
To make my stance clear, it’s not to destroy the meta but rather to eliminate discrimination in PvE, having faced discrimination back when thieves were considered unviable in dungeons. I’m well aware it impossible to completely get rid of discrimination in this game, such is the nature of humanity, but I do believe it’s at least possible to decrease the amount we see in game now.

Dual.8953:

maha.7902:

Dual.8953:

RedStar.4218:

Aside from roleplay reasons, why do you want to play with a ranged weapon ?

I’m honestly asking this question. And I don’t want to hear bullkitten like “because it’s what is told in the description” or “well I don’t. But if I did …”
The real reason. It can be anything, but I’m really interested in it.

Personal preference of combat style. Just like in any game players like the freedom to choose what they like and not be considered inferior for it. In fighting games some players like Grapplers, some like Rushdown fighters and some like Zoners, yet all of those playstyles are considered valid. Here we have a single playstyle that’s considered valid and a multitude that work but server no practical purpose in PvE.
This is a game that is supposed to promote creativity and personal preference in it’s combat. Is it right for over half the game’s combat options to be so weak they’re considered by some unviable?

Personal preference falls under role play.

Not letting you dodge the point that easily. This game’s PvE is sorely lacking in balance at the high end. The proposed change won’t fix the balance but it would make things a tad more level. Ideally PvE should have situations where both long and short range have practical applications at the top level. As it stands currently, the only situation where ranged becomes practical is when you’re class has no other option (I could argue that D/x Ele is still ranged as even Lightning Whip has more that double the range of melee and no combo tree) and a couple bosses that you pretty much can’t stand beside.
This change wouldn’t damage the meta in anyway but it would ideally alleviate some of the elitism among the pugs.
If you feel like replying to this, I ask you, why are you so dead set on keeping PvE as it is currently? Why do you not want more viable choices in the meta?

The balance at the high end is mostly fine, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Some classes are preferred but the efficiency difference is honestly quite small. I also don’t see how long and short range practical application would change anything for pugs either since pugs aren’t even close to high level, and it would not alleviate any elitism since pugs will be exclusive no matter what you do, people are even exclusive in open world where they purge pavilions of leeches or hide in blood tide coast megaservers so that potential leeches leave the map. Here is why I want pve to stay the way it is – besides outliers like fiery Greatsword, ice bow, ranger sword and necromancers having replaceable support, it’s balanced. Forcing people to range at the highest level does not make for more viable choices, it just means you have to range.

Dual.8953:

Boring for you maybe, but for me I love motion in combat, actively changing my position to avoid an onslaught of enemy attacks, especially when the floor lights up like a dance floor with AoEs. Standing in the corner is what I find boring, no matter how much active defense I perform. Some people like playing ranged and they’re frowned upon currently.
To make my stance clear, it’s not to destroy the meta but rather to eliminate discrimination in PvE, having faced discrimination back when thieves were considered unviable in dungeons. I’m well aware it impossible to completely get rid of discrimination in this game, such is the nature of humanity, but I do believe it’s at least possible to decrease the amount we see in game now.

Wait, “motion combat exclusive to ranged fighters” ? At 1200-1500 range ? When the others are in melee range ?
I don’t know what kind of encounters you are talking about in this game that have this.

Let’s take some bosses, and assume that your team cannot kill them under 10 seconds.
-AC spider : at 1200, you don’t get hit by her bleeding attack, you can easily dodge her web and moving out of her circles isn’t too hard because you have 3 seconds to prepare for one. At melee range you get hit by everything and have to prepare to take out her web, move out of the circles and find another spot to hit her if she’s standing in one.
-Frost (cm p1) : at 1500 you don’t get hit by his frost ray. At melee range, you have to keep moving around him to hit him.
-Turmaine (cm p2) : at melee, you get hit his attacks, have to move out of the circles and don’t even have 2 seconds to escape when he transforms. At range, you have to move out of the circle. And keep your distance, but hey, if you’re at 1200, it’s because you don’t have the aggro.

If you want to have motion combat, don’t pretend that firing a bow at maximum distance is the best way and melee is only “sit in front of the boss and 1111111”

There’s a reason why when people suck at an encounter, they put a ranged weapon and fire away.

But why exactly do you like firing a bow at maximum range ? Why not fire it at melee range ? If you know the encounters, know to move around, it won’t really be any different.

Azhure.1857:

…“one of those people”…

You really don’t know me, Blix. I’ve never even visited the ranger forums. I’m not a ranger main. I have no invested interest in my own class getting a buff or not. This is about a game that has mechanics in play that make it more difficult for ranged players, not just Rangers, to use ranged weapons effectively. Its not just a matter of difficulty, its also to a point where a Ranger using its most iconic weapon is viewed as being unacceptable by many people.

That’s not right.

So having more time to react to a boss’ attack, more area to kite and so on is making it more difficult for ranged players?

You can range any boss to death in this game with minimal effort – the same cannot be said about melee.

Also consider this – if boons were reworked they wouldn’t rework them just for PVE since they don’t want huge discrepancies between sPVP and WvW.

How do you imagine this sort of change would affect those game modes? Or does that not interest you?

Also I had no intention to insult you – I was pointing something out – I meant no offense.

Take of range limitations from boons, BUT only when in same squad(???) or party.

That should make most sense. Propably only for parties, not squads.

Atleast in my opinion.

Dual.8953:

chemiclord.3978:

I think the counterpoint here is that it really doesn’t matter what you or other games consider “iconic.” Guild Wars 2’s mechanics defines a ranger as an inside/out fighter, melee first with ranged secondary. It’s your choice to ignore that… at the cost of not being as effective as the game allows.

Well this thread is asking to lessen the gap between effecive and ineffective by pulling up the usefulness of the bottom. The gap between ranged and melee doesn’t need to be quite so huge as it is in PvE. I don’t even know why the meta crowd is so against it. Not like it’ll make is so they can’t stack anymore.

Back when the game released melee was considered suicide – almost all encounters were done by ranged combat and the gap seemed unfair then as well.

People have adapted – I find it funny how we already have a casual-oriented game that’s easy and while no new hard content is being added players are constantly asking for the easy parts to be made easier.

“Make full defensive armor just as good in clear times as full offensive” – even though it gives you a distinct advantage in survival ability.

“Make ranged combat better” – even though it gives you time to react and puts you at a safe distance form where you can kite indefinitely.

new PvP Meta,

every party has at least one guardian that stands safely back at home spamming “retreat” , “hold the line”, “save yourselves” and f1, f2, f3,

passive play at its finest.

nasomuch.

Azhure.1857:

maha.7902:

Dual.8953:

RedStar.4218:

Aside from roleplay reasons, why do you want to play with a ranged weapon ?

I’m honestly asking this question. And I don’t want to hear bullkitten like “because it’s what is told in the description” or “well I don’t. But if I did …”
The real reason. It can be anything, but I’m really interested in it.

Personal preference of combat style. Just like in any game players like the freedom to choose what they like and not be considered inferior for it. In fighting games some players like Grapplers, some like Rushdown fighters and some like Zoners, yet all of those playstyles are considered valid. Here we have a single playstyle that’s considered valid and a multitude that work but server no practical purpose in PvE.
This is a game that is supposed to promote creativity and personal preference in it’s combat. Is it right for over half the game’s combat options to be so weak they’re considered by some unviable?

Personal preference falls under role play.

Ah.
Right.
I must have missed the fine print on the game packaging when I purchased this game. This game is only meant for players who enjoy being Meta pawns. Do not purchase if you choose to play how you want in “Open World” content. Again, this game isn’t actually for you – its for meta players only. All others get the kitten out.

’Cause you know some of those fine print lines are just so well hidden.

Is someone actually stopping you from playing the game the way you want?

@Dual – when ranged was the meta for most encounters and melee was frowned upon – were you here to fight discrimination in PVE as well – or are you just doing it now because you feel the game doesn’t favor what you like to play?

Chrispy.5641:

Tman.6349:

Ranger is ‘an unparalleled archer’ though. The only other competitors are longbow warrior and short bow thief, both of which, a Ranger would destroy given a weapon vs weapon duel. This, however, has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on the fact that Ranger can “adapt to any situation” and that melee is inherently a superior choice. Being ‘an paralleled archer’ doesn’t change the fact that a melee Ranger is superior in a melee situation. It seems like you are ALL mistaken " an unparalleled archer" for ‘bows are (should be) the Ranger’s superior option". These are entirely different expectations/assumption and you should recognize the difference.

And ‘archer’ isn’t the only meaning of ranged combat. If you would like to argue this, then I’d be more than happy to wreck ANY bow Ranger with my staff Ele.

Then you missed the point of almost all of this thread. Rangers are a big talking point because everyone incorrectly refers to them as ‘Ranger = Ranged’, but that’s not all of it. Instead of a Ranged Ranger vs. a Melee Ranger, Look at the situation from a general Ranged Weapon vs. Melee Weapon standpoint. If Melee weapons were purposely designed to be superior in 99.9999% of all situations, then why bother to have Ranged weapons in this game at all if they were purposefully designed to be inferior weapons?

(That’s what the discussion evolved into, though the original thing was about the range of boons..)

ranged damage is not an inferior weapon, it just isnt as much direct dps. Which is fairly accurate, you can do way more damage with a sword at close range than arrow at long range, in a shorter time frame irl.

The advantage is, less risk to the archer, and tactical advantage.

In order to give/benefit from boons, position should be important.
People who want to stay at max range and get all the benefits are missing the point. Ranger is supposed to be a skirmisher in this game, going in and out of melee range as needed. You dont need to be literally on top of someone to benefit from, or give boons. Ranger has some of the fastest abilities to continously move in and out of various ranges for a reason. You will not be as effective standing far as if you move around to where you need to be, based on what is happening in the party at that moment.

That said, i dont think it would hurt to have SOME abilities that give boons through cone, or some new combo fields that have a conal effect.

maha.7902:

I don’t know what frothing at the meta has anything to do with what I just said, I’m just saying that if you want a ranged play style then you’re just role playing as a ranged dps since there’s not any practical reason to chill in the back line besides your preference, i.e desire to role play. Vent your irrational meta hatred elsewhere thank you.

Nope. It wasn’t misdirected. Thank you.

Blix.8021:

Dual.8953:

maha.7902:

Dual.8953:

RedStar.4218:

Aside from roleplay reasons, why do you want to play with a ranged weapon ?

I’m honestly asking this question. And I don’t want to hear bullkitten like “because it’s what is told in the description” or “well I don’t. But if I did …”
The real reason. It can be anything, but I’m really interested in it.

Personal preference of combat style. Just like in any game players like the freedom to choose what they like and not be considered inferior for it. In fighting games some players like Grapplers, some like Rushdown fighters and some like Zoners, yet all of those playstyles are considered valid. Here we have a single playstyle that’s considered valid and a multitude that work but server no practical purpose in PvE.
This is a game that is supposed to promote creativity and personal preference in it’s combat. Is it right for over half the game’s combat options to be so weak they’re considered by some unviable?

Personal preference falls under role play.

Not letting you dodge the point that easily. This game’s PvE is sorely lacking in balance at the high end. The proposed change won’t fix the balance but it would make things a tad more level. Ideally PvE should have situations where both long and short range have practical applications at the top level. As it stands currently, the only situation where ranged becomes practical is when you’re class has no other option (I could argue that D/x Ele is still ranged as even Lightning Whip has more that double the range of melee and no combo tree) and a couple bosses that you pretty much can’t stand beside.
This change wouldn’t damage the meta in anyway but it would ideally alleviate some of the elitism among the pugs.
If you feel like replying to this, I ask you, why are you so dead set on keeping PvE as it is currently? Why do you not want more viable choices in the meta?

And why do you want to change it?

If range was equal dps to melee, then everyone would just range because it would be less risk and equal reward. Why would anyone learn how to dodge when they could just camp longbow/rifle/staff/mesmer gs and be equal? How boring would that be?

Not everyone would range. If it became unbalanced like you suggest – many would range. There would always be the group that just prefers to melee when they can AND those that are up to a challenge.

But to address the issue you brought up. Another fix would be to make enemy AI, particularly Boss AI, to be much more diverse and engaging. A real challenge. That way the “risk” would be spread out along the battlefield.
Would that not be a good solution?

Harper.4173:

So having more time to react to a boss’ attack, more area to kite and so on is making it more difficult for ranged players?

You can range any boss to death in this game with minimal effort – the same cannot be said about melee.

Also consider this – if boons were reworked they wouldn’t rework them just for PVE since they don’t want huge discrepancies between sPVP and WvW.

How do you imagine this sort of change would affect those game modes? Or does that not interest you?

Also I had no intention to insult you – I was pointing something out – I meant no offense.

Balance interests me greatly. We can only imagine what certain changes would do to the game. Then let ArenaNet make a decision whether to adopt any suggestions we make and run with it (hopefully test it too….).

Your first two sentences are some of the reasons why something needs to change. Even if its not what the OP suggests. You clearly pointed out problems in the meta.
Difficulty of being ranged: Those that choose to stand in the back line are immediately viewed as being cowardly or afk spammers. We could implement changes like better boss mechanics where nobody is safe and melee/range share risk equally. Since there really isn’t a body block in this game, it wouldn’t be hard to do. Making the bosses more mobile would also be good for the same reason of encouraging “active gameplay” because there are a lot of melee players that just afk spam too, its not exclusive to ranged.

The larger problem, as I see it, is that there are people that wouldn’t let any change even remotely like the one’s being suggested ever come to pass. Because they fear them. They fear change to what they know, what they’re used to.

Granted I’m not in favor of making boons “map-wide” in terms of application distance. But increasing them to 1500 or something like that sounds like improvement, or at the very least worthy of consideration and testing.

The “meta” should be adaptable. We have the ability to adapt with it if it comes to it. Ranged combat is a part of GW2 and it should be treated with equal care. Anet needs to change the combat mechanics to better implement it into the game where all parties would be happy with it. Right now we have a system where its greatly frowned upon. I don’t even range and that bothers me greatly.

Harper.4173:

Is someone actually stopping you from playing the game the way you want?

It would be so easy for me to give a very lengthy and detailed response to that. It would unfortunately involve quite a fair bit of heat, not towards you, but to many things. Since I’m trying to avoid an infraction, I’ll choose to simply say – “Yes.”

But to add on towards your comment for Dual.
I’m not a Ranger, nor am I a ranged type of player. I’m a close quarters Guardian main. Its currently what I love to play. Has been since Headstart. Yet I’m here in support of improving ranged gameplay.

Don’t worry…. the sky isn’t going to fall.

Harper.4173:

Azhure.1857:

maha.7902:

Dual.8953:

RedStar.4218:

Aside from roleplay reasons, why do you want to play with a ranged weapon ?

I’m honestly asking this question. And I don’t want to hear bullkitten like “because it’s what is told in the description” or “well I don’t. But if I did …”
The real reason. It can be anything, but I’m really interested in it.

Personal preference of combat style. Just like in any game players like the freedom to choose what they like and not be considered inferior for it. In fighting games some players like Grapplers, some like Rushdown fighters and some like Zoners, yet all of those playstyles are considered valid. Here we have a single playstyle that’s considered valid and a multitude that work but server no practical purpose in PvE.
This is a game that is supposed to promote creativity and personal preference in it’s combat. Is it right for over half the game’s combat options to be so weak they’re considered by some unviable?

Personal preference falls under role play.

Ah.
Right.
I must have missed the fine print on the game packaging when I purchased this game. This game is only meant for players who enjoy being Meta pawns. Do not purchase if you choose to play how you want in “Open World” content. Again, this game isn’t actually for you – its for meta players only. All others get the kitten out.

’Cause you know some of those fine print lines are just so well hidden.

Is someone actually stopping you from playing the game the way you want?

@Dual – when ranged was the meta for most encounters and melee was frowned upon – were you here to fight discrimination in PVE as well – or are you just doing it now because you feel the game doesn’t favor what you like to play?

I was a Thief player almost exclusively had no other 80s and I was getting shunted by even my own guildies all the time for a Guard or Warrior just because the general thought was Thieves are too squishy for dungeons. So yes, although my scope was limited to Thieves at the time, honestly it kind of sucked to be a thief player at launch. You got all the hate from PvP and were considered useless in PvE.
As for the implication that I do only ranged on my Thief, I have all possible weapon sets on me at all times, and I change my build all the time. I generally favour Sword in most cases, but will rebuild for different scenarios like taking advantage of Dagger’s single targetted nature using them against the ogre boss in the pavillion to safely attack him without hitting the birds so I generally prefer melee and always have. Just don’t like being tied down.

Sunshine.4680:

Maybe the problem is too many boons, might stacking and stacking in general and some classes making bosses/dungeons jokes. Maybe that is what really needs to be looked at seeing how the meta players are so rabidly against anything new. Makes me wonder why?

People say ranged is a crutch yet isn’t Zerker gear wearing, melee stacking burning down the boss asap pretty much a crutch? After all you’re just burning down the boss asap so you won’t have to really do much other than burn down an HP punching bag.

It’s a “crutch” to have 5 competent players in the party now apparently.

If you have one zerker DPSing Lupi while the rest run around at range pulling Lupi away from ideal positioning, making AOEs explode on allies instead of reflecting them, and causing bubbles to happen, I’m not sure that zerker is crutching on anything very hard.

Harper.4173:

Dual.8953:

chemiclord.3978:

I think the counterpoint here is that it really doesn’t matter what you or other games consider “iconic.” Guild Wars 2’s mechanics defines a ranger as an inside/out fighter, melee first with ranged secondary. It’s your choice to ignore that… at the cost of not being as effective as the game allows.

Well this thread is asking to lessen the gap between effecive and ineffective by pulling up the usefulness of the bottom. The gap between ranged and melee doesn’t need to be quite so huge as it is in PvE. I don’t even know why the meta crowd is so against it. Not like it’ll make is so they can’t stack anymore.

Back when the game released melee was considered suicide – almost all encounters were done by ranged combat and the gap seemed unfair then as well.

People have adapted – I find it funny how we already have a casual-oriented game that’s easy and while no new hard content is being added players are constantly asking for the easy parts to be made easier.

the game was release with beta events……. anet nerfed most mob damage after beta event 1 or 2.

Most of the gaming population were not wearing exotics…………

I actually wonder if the whole population understand field combos and such. I know I didnt but I was a playing a mesmer so I cant be bothered.

I think you should re consider your arguments

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Sunshine.4680:

Maybe the problem is too many boons, might stacking and stacking in general and some classes making bosses/dungeons jokes. Maybe that is what really needs to be looked at seeing how the meta players are so rabidly against anything new. Makes me wonder why?

People say ranged is a crutch yet isn’t Zerker gear wearing, melee stacking burning down the boss asap pretty much a crutch? After all you’re just burning down the boss asap so you won’t have to really do much other than burn down an HP punching bag.

It’s a “crutch” to have 5 competent players in the party now apparently.

If you have one zerker DPSing Lupi while the rest run around at range pulling Lupi away from ideal positioning, making AOEs explode on allies instead of reflecting them, and causing bubbles to happen, I’m not sure that zerker is crutching on anything very hard.

to be honest, one of the biggest problems with AI, is how you can basically “taunt” aka completely control what the AI does by having everyone in the same place. This basically turns battle into a similar playstyle as the tank and spank/heal/dps formula that they were supposedly trying to avoid.

I think the best solution would to be make the enemy have better positional movement. The goal isnt to have the enemy auto killing everyone, but when the enemy does move, the party needs to adapt to the new tactics that creates.

Azhure.1857:

Blix.8021:

Dual.8953:

maha.7902:

Dual.8953:

RedStar.4218:

Aside from roleplay reasons, why do you want to play with a ranged weapon ?

I’m honestly asking this question. And I don’t want to hear bullkitten like “because it’s what is told in the description” or “well I don’t. But if I did …”
The real reason. It can be anything, but I’m really interested in it.

Personal preference of combat style. Just like in any game players like the freedom to choose what they like and not be considered inferior for it. In fighting games some players like Grapplers, some like Rushdown fighters and some like Zoners, yet all of those playstyles are considered valid. Here we have a single playstyle that’s considered valid and a multitude that work but server no practical purpose in PvE.
This is a game that is supposed to promote creativity and personal preference in it’s combat. Is it right for over half the game’s combat options to be so weak they’re considered by some unviable?

Personal preference falls under role play.

Not letting you dodge the point that easily. This game’s PvE is sorely lacking in balance at the high end. The proposed change won’t fix the balance but it would make things a tad more level. Ideally PvE should have situations where both long and short range have practical applications at the top level. As it stands currently, the only situation where ranged becomes practical is when you’re class has no other option (I could argue that D/x Ele is still ranged as even Lightning Whip has more that double the range of melee and no combo tree) and a couple bosses that you pretty much can’t stand beside.
This change wouldn’t damage the meta in anyway but it would ideally alleviate some of the elitism among the pugs.
If you feel like replying to this, I ask you, why are you so dead set on keeping PvE as it is currently? Why do you not want more viable choices in the meta?

And why do you want to change it?

If range was equal dps to melee, then everyone would just range because it would be less risk and equal reward. Why would anyone learn how to dodge when they could just camp longbow/rifle/staff/mesmer gs and be equal? How boring would that be?

Not everyone would range. If it became unbalanced like you suggest – many would range. There would always be the group that just prefers to melee when they can AND those that are up to a challenge.

But to address the issue you brought up. Another fix would be to make enemy AI, particularly Boss AI, to be much more diverse and engaging. A real challenge. That way the “risk” would be spread out along the battlefield.
Would that not be a good solution?

No it would not – And here’s why :

The game was designed to have a low skill level being created with the intention to not punish people who lack the time investment to get good at it and keep them playing.
They designed the game to have a very low skill ceiling required to play and complete content successfully.
This was done in order to keep a good retention rate of hypercasual players – the kind of player that isn’t very good at games and can’t be very good ( because he’s got a job and spends most of his time outside the game) but who might be inclined to spend money on the gem store ( because he has a job and can afford it).
The indirect ( and unavoidable) side-effect of this is that very skilled players ( the kind that play the game for thousands of hours on end because they have the time – or just the kind that are good at games in general) are capable of mitigating every threat the game poses through skill and don’t need defensive gear because they can compensate the lack of passive defense with their own ability as a player.
This is what lead to the viability of full glass parties. And this is why the skill cap won’t be raised any time soon.

Raise skill cap = make a small number of players happy while losing many more because the game is now " too hard " and “unfair”.

Azhure.1857:

stuff

The reason your change isn’t gonna come is twofold.

Part of it I’ve addressed in my post above – detailing how the game content is designed and who it’s designed for.

The second part is even more tricky – people won’t support it – why? not because of fear or the fear of change but because of convenience and time investment.

People have been grinding out their gear and builds and whatnot for a long time. Nobody – and i mean nobody wants their build/gear to suddenly become obsolete because the game has changed.
Nobody wants to relearn the game – if you think people want this you’re mistaken.
Nobody wants their encounters to change so loot is now harder to get – or they have to relearn how to get it.

When I say nobody of course i’m exaggerating but i’m pretty sure the majority of players don’t want the things they’ve worked with for the past 2 years to be turned upside down and everything changed.

You mention treating ranged combat with care – but there’s a catch. Players are different – some are fast and have good reflexes while others are slow and don’t.
Some are good and some are bad – in short terms.

Ranged ( and I do understand why you dislike this) is currently serving a very important purpose in the game – the purpose of making content manageable for players that aren’t as good.
It’s the safe spot that you can go to if you can’t dodge or use active defense well enough. It takes longer but it’s pretty much safe that you’ll get that boss down as long as you keep kiting and keep your distance.

Making ranged and melee play share risk equality means you’ve cut off all these players that need a less risky and longer route to complete the content.
And there are plenty of such players around – far more than the ones who want more challenge or different boss mechanics.

You don’t range because you choose not to – I’m sure that’s upsetting but that’s a choice.
Make ranged play just as risky as melee and people who are forced to range because of low skill (or real life conditions) are now unable to complete content. They don’t choose to not complete it – they are unable to do it because you’ve taken their only viable option away.

Make ranged too strong and it defeats the purpose of having it as a slower but safer method.

Ranged/Melee balance is fine as it is – I understand you don’t feel this way but the game isn’t going to change because you’re upset.
If you want to range – range away – find people who want that and go for it.
You’re not being forced to play any differently than you want to – please don’t ask for the game to change so that others are forced to play your way.

“to be honest, one of the biggest problems with AI, is how you can basically “taunt” aka completely control what the AI does by having everyone in the same place.”

There is no problems with stacking in one place to fight to share boons, use combo fields, apply conditions, apply damage, etc. That’s fine. Mobs also find it easier to apply their aoe and conditions too against a stack. The problem is that movement of enemies can be controlled too easily without using skills. A corner typically controls the fight as well as any utility skill.

Stooperdale.3560:

“to be honest, one of the biggest problems with AI, is how you can basically “taunt” aka completely control what the AI does by having everyone in the same place.”

There is no problems with stacking in one place to fight to share boons, use combo fields, apply conditions, apply damage, etc. That’s fine. Mobs also find it easier to apply their aoe and conditions too against a stack. The problem is that movement of enemies can be controlled too easily without using skills. A corner typically controls the fight as well as any utility skill.

i didnt say stacking should be stopped for boons, combo feels, or applying conditions, i said the enemy shouldnt adopt a predictable pattern and stand around getting pimp smacked while you do it. You dont really need a corner, the monster generally doesnt move anyhow, main advantage of a corner is negating player movements which allow you to stay on one spot and do big dmg, or dodge without as much time spent walking back, or the monster changing his tactics because you are at a slightly different range.

Ropechef.6192:

you don’t get it.

…blah blah blah…..

dont “fix” fix what is not broken. I don’t want Arena Net wasting their time and ours trying to balance something out. when they could be making a new map, or dungeon, or whatever.

You accused someone of ‘not getting it’ but apparently you don’t get that there is a separate balance team and a separate team for things like profession balance and map creation.

Harper.4173:

Azhure.1857:

stuff

…blah blah blah, blah, (insert ‘Melee is for the Elite and Range is for bad players’ here), Blah Blah Blah……

So…to summarize your entire post…..Range is inferior to Melee by design and only bad players use Ranged weapons because a random player said so….good to know, though…..

Melee weapons are designed differently as well, and cater to different skill levels. Look at the Ranger’s 2 melee weapons, and which one do you think requires a higher skill level? The one with a rooting auto attack and movement based skills, or the one with a built in evade on the auto attack that doesn’t root you in place?

That’s one example of many, making it quite ill-informed (also a little elitist) to be saying that only Ranged weapons are for less skilled players, and have less risk, especially when that is totally not the case in PvP and WvW, the many 1000 range gap closers on melee weapons make sure of that.

Kill a champion orrian warrior with ranged weapons, then kill the next one you see with melee weapons. Then come back and tell us about how ill informed we are. Ranged weapons let you kite a boss forever, you can’t with melee.

Chrispy.5641:

Ropechef.6192:

you don’t get it.

…blah blah blah…..

dont “fix” fix what is not broken. I don’t want Arena Net wasting their time and ours trying to balance something out. when they could be making a new map, or dungeon, or whatever.

You accused someone of ‘not getting it’ but apparently you don’t get that there is a separate balance team and a separate team for things like profession balance and map creation.

Harper.4173:

Azhure.1857:

stuff

…blah blah blah, blah, (insert ‘Melee is for the Elite and Range is for bad players’ here), Blah Blah Blah……

So…to summarize your entire post…..Range is inferior to Melee by design and only bad players use Ranged weapons because a random player said so….good to know, though…..

Melee weapons are designed differently as well, and cater to different skill levels. Look at the Ranger’s 2 melee weapons, and which one do you think requires a higher skill level? The one with a rooting auto attack and movement based skills, or the one with a built in evade on the auto attack that doesn’t root you in place?

That’s one example of many, making it quite ill-informed (also a little elitist) to be saying that only Ranged weapons are for less skilled players, and have less risk, especially when that is totally not the case in PvP and WvW, the many 1000 range gap closers on melee weapons make sure of that.

First of all my post was directed and PVE – not WvW and not sPVP.
Second of all you may think you summarized my post but you didn’t – you only summarized the small bit you thought you understood from it.

You may call me elitist and misinformed all you want but you’re wrong.
Ranged was designed as the easier way to tackle content in this game and nobody here who’s played the game can deny that.

I’m not saying ranged is only for bad players and melee for the super 1337 but ranged is definitely safer so players who can’t handle melee will range the boss instead of dying a million times to it learning its attacks. It’s easier to do it like that and people always take the path of least resistance.

When I was leveling my character and would go to do skill challenges in higher level zones I would always range the boss to death and be done with it. The same boss I couldn’t take in melee.

When I first started with dungeons nobody knew how to melee properly in GW2 so we all ranged everything to death while kiting the bosses forever.

Time has passed – some players have put in the time and effort to get better and be able to melee – others prefer to still range at a safe distance – I’m not saying it is a less valid play style but it certainly is a safer and easier play style in PVE.

In other words..

Anet doesn’t know how to make classes viable if they’re not “zerker” geared/traited.

Welcome to the GW2 meta-game. “Zerker or gtfo”, is the new “gearcheck”, that plagued WoW. Two years later, and countless topics of suggestions, and still no resolution. I wouldn’t hope for a change anytime soon.

I don’t want it being removed. I just want my guardian’s shouts to have 1200 range

Err…does anyone know the mysterious unit of measurement of this 600/1200/1500/2000 range everyone keeps harping on about?

< 150: Melee
600: aggro range
900: short-range ranged
1200: standard ranged
1500: high-range ranged

GW2’s unit of measure is inches. For more clarity.

nexxe.7081:

In other words..

Anet doesn’t know how to make classes viable if they’re not “zerker” geared/traited.

Welcome to the GW2 meta-game. “Zerker or gtfo”, is the new “gearcheck”, that plagued WoW. Two years later, and countless topics of suggestions, and still no resolution. I wouldn’t hope for a change anytime soon.

Hopefully you realize that if any of these suggestions were “viable” and would have produced an overwhelmingly satisfying result for the majority then they would have been implemented very quickly.

And yet no huge changes of the sort have been implemented. Why do you think that is?