Guild Wars 2

There are a lot of talks lately about outfits replacing normal armor skins. Mostly complaints and requests to add skins instead of the outfits. They have a point but unfortunately they do not offer any real solution.

So I’ve got some ideas I would like to share with both community and ANet about the case. Hopefully, those might be useful.

To start with, a message to community:

I am afraid that problem with outfits is not just about doing outfits being simple-to-create (1 armor skin vs 3 distinct armor skins for each weight) and more profitable (1 skin for all weights instead of 1 skin for 1 weight) – problem is that there are a lot of players using outfits already. If ANet will stop adding outfits right now or, what is even worse, will remove them completely and replace with skins – that will be a big blow to all those who prefer using outfits. And I bet there are a lot of people who love them.

So basically – outfits cannot be removed from game and have to be obtainable somehow to keep interested players in-game. Or, at least, something similar should be introduced to replace them without hurting players experience.

General thoughts on outfits:

Let’s be honest, outfits concept is a really good one!
Probably not completely finished and polished yet, but it IS good.

You can use them with just one click, you don’t need to buy/waste transmutation charges, you don’t even need armor on to use them, you don’t have to reapply them each time you change some part of your gear, you can easily switch between them.

I love them and I use a few of them, but… mostly on naked alts used to craft some stuff and such. Why? Because I really want to make my character stand out, I really hate being a cloned version of lots of other players around in the world of Tyria.

So basically, as already said thousands of times on forums – outfits lack flexibility. You can’t mix different skins and create your unique sets. I mean truly different – not just another re-colored version of the same outfit which will still be pretty distinguishable.

Now, here comes the idea:

There might be a good way to get out of this situation without hurting outfits owners and making all who love to mix skins happy at the same time: do a few enhancements to outfits system. Here is the details on the idea:

1. Introduce blank outfit templates:
- Blank outfit template can be filled-in with different armor skin parts (6 parts in total) and will then be converted into account-bound outfit (like we have right now)
- Each blank outfit sold for gems in gem store = direct profit, price doesn’t really matter for me but I guess it might match the outfits price (around 500-800 gems)
- Each blank outfit is usable only once = they are awesome enough to make them non-reusable, I would agree to buy tons of those just to have all skin sets I like as outfits
- Since we allow any skins to be applied to the blank outfit now – they might have to be split by the weight category UNLESS you were using skins which are available in each weight (like skins coming from outfits OR old skin sets like Zodiac) and are unlocked for you in each weight
- In addition – since player can now create their own otfits – you might allow player to remove them (like throwing away an item) in case he wants to get rid of some – he will lose outfit, yes, but he won’t lose unlocked skins so it’s not an issue

2. All outfits which were in-game before can be converted into skins
- All existing outfits have to be separated into 6 skin parts, basically they become common skins unlocked for account – that might take some work, but it can be done
- Players who have outfits will receive it in outfits tab as a custom outfit with all 6 pieces from the skin of that outfit and will also receive 6 skins in their skins collection
- Outfits in gem store will be replaced with their skin versions, since you have them now in-game as separate skins – there is no problem to add them like that

Details can be changed, but basically that’s it!

In the end of the day:
+ Players who love outfits – didn’t lose anything, they still have the converted version
+ Players who bougth outfits so far – received outfit parts skins and can use them now
+ Players who want to mix-n-match – can now do that and even more!
+ All players – can now create their own ready-to use outfits (aka skin sets)
+ ANet can sell blank outfit templates – I bet demand will be HUGE on those
+ ANet can sell skin sets now without need to create outfits – players will create them
+ ANet will get additional profit on selling old outfits converted into skin sets

It will be a win-win for everyone, or not?

Yes, to get new outfit you will have to pay twice now (for skins and for blank outfit template), but that can be mitigated with prices or just with the total awesomeness of this feature being in-game.

So, I would love to hear your thoughts on this idea.

Actually, plenty of people have suggested that if they release an outfit, just release it as an armor skin as well, so people who like the outfit can buy it, and people who want the skin can buy it, and they make that much more money by appealing to both crowds.

It would require a little more in the programming department, but it would please everyone.

Kreejaffa.3682:

Actually, plenty of people have suggested that if they release an outfit, just release it as an armor skin as well, so people who like the outfit can buy it, and people who want the skin can buy it, and they make that much more money by appealing to both crowds.

It would require a little more in the programming department, but it would please everyone.

They would also probably start charging 1500 games for them. 700 gems for the outfit, 800 gems for the armor. And it would be tied to a certain armor weight as well.

Well, yeah, if you wanted to buy both, it would obviously be more expensive, but you would not be required to buy both if you did not want to. It would be an option.

I think they would make more sales this way, as some people do not like the outfits, and thus, would be willing to spend gems on the skin, and vis versa, and you would have the ones that want both, so in the end, they would be making more gem sales. If those extra sales would make up the difference for the increased man power needed to make both outfits and skins though, I do not know.

They’ve already explained why outfits are technologically different from armor skins, and I’ve seen the same problem in other games, but I don’t see why they can’t handle it the same way those games do, in fact, we have one piece that does it already:

Basically, certain pieces of outfits NEED to be used together as a one piece because of seam issues, but then we could just have those pieces override the needed ones. So if the outfit was a once piece dress, for example, wearing the top would automatically force the pants skin to match no matter what pants are equipped. Some of the Flame Legion chest pieces from COF already do this. I’m pretty sure the light and medium ones do. If I equip the flame legion top with a poofy skirt like the nightmare court one on my Mesmer, the skirt just disappears rather than clipping through the flame legion skirt that automatically comes with the top.

If outfit pieces worked that way, you’d still be able to mix and match pieces like the gloves and shoes, but the connected parts of the outfit would be one solid piece.

I used to play Aion, and that is exactly how many of the armor skins worked, particularly several of the light armor skins because they’d be dresses or robes which override your leg skin. Or if you had pants with fused boots, they’d override your footwear skin, etc. You’d still be able to mix and match the other pieces.

As the Outfit system currently is, I see no reason we shouldn’t at least be able to mix and match the headgear of outfits since they’re already separated. And the gloves, shoulders and boots don’t have the cross-armor class issues as the other pieces (Which is why special gloves and such are in the gem store without a full set and can be the same skin for all armor classes) so those should be separate-able as well.

So even if we don’t get FULL mix and match outfits, Getting skins from some of the pieces from certain outfits where feasible would be a really nice gesture.

Wiella.8567:

I really hate being a cloned version of lots of other players around in the world of Tyria.

That’s exactly what costumes do.

Costumes are not supposed to be mixable. Maybe they should make costumes less look like armors.
When you wear a chicken custome you supposed to look like a chicken. Then you want to mix it with bear head?

As to players getting upset if they change the system, MMOs do this when there is compelling reason, and the majority of players usually accept it. Noting that we’re talking about a change that would bring more customization to characters, it would be far more widely accepted than decried. What amazes me is that games like TERA go from having full customization in their cash shop to fixed outfits like we have here—all to suit one new class mind you—and get away with it. Of course this game did have the Town Clothing debacle, but it survived, and here we are.

I went on at length about this in the thread discussing the issue with transmutation/cosmetic grindiness in the game, but to keep it short the greater the level of customization available, especially when dealing with cash shop items, the happier players are. What we have here in terms of costumes is far too rigid and it is why many players, myself included, have refused to buy outfits from the gem shop.

Arioso.8519:

They’ve already explained why outfits are technologically different from armor skins

I read a lot of discussions on that topic but didn’t really see that information, could you point me to the exact post or topic? Thanks in advance.

Arioso.8519:

Basically, certain pieces of outfits NEED to be used together as a one piece because of seam issues, but then we could just have those pieces override the needed ones. So if the outfit was a once piece dress, for example, wearing the top would automatically force the pants skin to match no matter what pants are equipped. Some of the Flame Legion chest pieces from COF already do this. I’m pretty sure the light and medium ones do.

That is a good point as well. If there are seam/clipping issues that could not be fixed easily (though I am sure that could be, but will require too much of the dev/designers time) they could make a workaround like the one you described and it would be totally acceptable. You probably will chose those parts together anyway because separately they will look horrible (like the zodiac chest without leggings).

Jinesis.3782:

Costumes are not supposed to be mixable. Maybe they should make costumes less look like armors.
When you wear a chicken custome you supposed to look like a chicken. Then you want to mix it with bear head?

I agree that some costumes are better to be left as costumes – my suggestion doesn’t include the option to leave some outfits as outfits only, but that might also be an option. BUT only some of them which are actually costumes – like the cook or winter ones.

The issue is that they are now releasing armors (like balthazar one) as outfits instead of skins and that, in my opinion, is not a costume at all – this is just a normal armor skin made as an outfit to simplify stuff. And that is becoming an issue because I feel that we won’t see any new good skins around (like we had before) for a long time.

Prototypemind.4026:

the greater the level of customization available, especially when dealing with cash shop items, the happier players are. What we have here in terms of costumes is far too rigid and it is why many players, myself included, have refused to buy outfits from the gem shop.

I totally agree. And that is why I am offering an improvement that might help keep the outfits system rolling without affecting players who doesn’t like it at all, and which might also add some new customization options on top of that.

Too add to this:

My understanding of it is that outfits are designed as a single piece and do not come with separate pieces, except the head piece. So even if they released them as an outfit AND 3 visually identical armor sets, they would need to remake the same look 4 times. While this takes time and people clearly, I think it would be worth it where it’s feasible, more on this later.

The outfits category existing is fine. It was created to try to deal with about half of the town clothes debacle, and was then marketed as a way to apply a look onto your character without having to spend transmutation charges (AKA money).

It has the side effect that, when they are so inclined, it allows them to make armor designs that don’t need to follow any of the rules of their 3 armor meshes, or even need be broken up to fit in armor slots. The outfit can be one seamless getup for everyone.

The problems.

First I gotta ask, wtf were they thinking when they made 2 or 3 totally different armor meshes for light/heavy and medium? Every time I’ve received a response from other players regarding this, they have all said that this is the reason the coat tails are tied to the chest piece on medium armors, and the heavy/light get skirts, not a wise choice here… IF armors were all designed off the exact same mesh, it would clear a great many issues from armor designs that may have led Anet to start looking at single piece gears, or at least it would have allowed them more freedom to make things that broke the “butt skirts and trench coats” complaints that constantly surfaced back when they were making gem store full armor sets.

Second, outfits were meant to offer more room for artistry in gear designs. This shows in sets like The Mad King’s, Balthazar, Arcane, Crystal Nomad, etc, but then there are a couple sets that have no need to be outfits, if only because their designs could have been done within the constrains of 6 piece armors, examples include this latest Daydreamer set especially, Ancestral, and Jungle explorers outfits. When they start adding outfits that could be used (mind you, I don’t know ALL the constraints of their armor system, but going from looks which the system defines), it’s starting a trend that I personally fear, which was mentioned above, the removal of meaningful character customization.

To the cost of transmutation charges, it was one of the selling points of outfits when they were initially brought in, and while this is good for leveling or people who don’t want to farm/buy them, it plays back into character customization. Some of us (hopefully a lot of us) are willing to go that extra distance to make our characters look just right, because ultimately after we blow through the rather generic MMO storyline, people like me only really come back (be it daily or after long breaks) for things that keep it fresh. And character customization (all be it through massive amounts of grind farming) is what does it for me. Outfits are a negation of this.

So what to do?

I have never been one to advocate removing things from games once the cat is out of the bag, even more after becoming somebody who got burned in the Flamekissed armor scandal (pun intended). So let outfits exist, let armors exist. But define them, put out a mission statement that says exactly what each will and should be. And if a design comes up that could cross the 2 platforms, take that extra step and make them both. There are outfits that could never really work as armors, and these are fine as they are, and should be kept and continually expanded upon as outfits. And continue making more sets of armor that keep to some of the design philosophies that have defined the weights thus far (sans the trench coats, srsly…STAHP). But with outfits especially, if a design comes up that doesn’t outright defy the parameters of armor design, build both and release it for both types. The outfit version would remain the same, the armor version would be a single unlock for all 3 weights since only 1 set will have spawned from the outfit design. And would cost the usual 800 gems I recall the armor sets being back when.

Key is choices, since both exist, let there be more choices. Between armors, outfits and the possibility of some social clothing tonics, like say, bikinis and speedos like we see on Southsun Cove. (the non-outfit town clothes thing was kinda uncool, woulda liked single skins in each armor weight, but w/e)

Inimicus.7162:

My understanding of it is that outfits are designed as a single piece and do not come with separate pieces, except the head piece. So even if they released them as an outfit AND 3 visually identical armor sets, they would need to remake the same look 4 times. While this takes time and people clearly, I think it would be worth it where it’s feasible, more on this later.

The outfits category existing is fine. It was created to try to deal with about half of the town clothes debacle, and was then marketed as a way to apply a look onto your character without having to spend transmutation charges (AKA money).

You can’t be sure why exactly it was created, probably just to try out this new option and see if it fits the game well or not. In any case, let’s not speculate that a lot.

About the transmutation charges – I think anyone who played PvP or done some maps exploration have a lot of those. Not even talking about guys who farm or buy BLCs. So those doesn’t seem to be an issue if you are actively playing the game – there are a lot of sources to get them from.

Inimicus.7162:

First I gotta ask, wtf were they thinking when they made 2 or 3 totally different armor meshes for light/heavy and medium? Every time I’ve received a response from other players regarding this, they have all said that this is the reason the coat tails are tied to the chest piece on medium armors, and the heavy/light get skirts, not a wise choice here… IF armors were all designed off the exact same mesh, it would clear a great many issues from armor designs that may have led Anet to start looking at single piece gears, or at least it would have allowed them more freedom to make things that broke the “butt skirts and trench coats” complaints that constantly surfaced back when they were making gem store full armor sets.

We can only speculate why those were made so. Let’s keep this topic constructive and set all guesses aside. It might have been a first push to the outfits design, yes, but that is only a guess there.

Inimicus.7162:

Second, outfits were meant to offer more room for artistry in gear designs. This shows in sets like The Mad King’s, Balthazar, Arcane, Crystal Nomad, etc, but then there are a couple sets that have no need to be outfits, if only because their designs could have been done within the constrains of 6 piece armors, examples include this latest Daydreamer set especially, Ancestral, and Jungle explorers outfits. When they start adding outfits that could be used (mind you, I don’t know ALL the constraints of their armor system, but going from looks which the system defines), it’s starting a trend that I personally fear, which was mentioned above, the removal of meaningful character customization.

Yep, aside making some outfits as outfits because of design constraints (I guess here goes the Balthazar outfit and some other which otherwise would have seam issues) – there are outfits, like you just mentioned, which can be converted into skins for sure and which already have six visually separate parts which can fit in as skins pretty well.

This is actually where a system like the one I have offered can come into play easily to provide/convert some of the outfits back into skins+custom outfit made on their base.

Inimicus.7162:

To the cost of transmutation charges, it was one of the selling points of outfits when they were initially brought in, and while this is good for leveling or people who don’t want to farm/buy them, it plays back into character customization. Some of us (hopefully a lot of us) are willing to go that extra distance to make our characters look just right, because ultimately after we blow through the rather generic MMO storyline, people like me only really come back (be it daily or after long breaks) for things that keep it fresh. And character customization (all be it through massive amounts of grind farming) is what does it for me. Outfits are a negation of this.

Not sure about the cost of the transmutation charges, but I am agree with the rest. Customization is what makes you return back to the game, frequently check TP or Gemstore for new cool stuff and just play some PvE and PvP even if there is no content around like now.

Inimicus.7162:

Key is choices, since both exist, let there be more choices. Between armors, outfits and the possibility of some social clothing tonics, like say, bikinis and speedos like we see on Southsun Cove. (the non-outfit town clothes thing was kinda uncool, woulda liked single skins in each armor weight, but w/e)

I am generally agree with that and my offer basically describes one of possible ways to combine both – skins and outfits – to work well with each other, which should really be the final goal, but not removing one or another completely from the game.