Guild Wars 2

In light of the recent condition changes, it’s obvious they are getting a massive buff. I see a few issues though. Lets take Dire and Soldier gear for example;

Dire: Condition Damage, Toughness, Vitality
Soldier: Power, Toughness, Vitality

For an effective power build you need Power, Precision and Ferocity.
For an effective condition build you need condition damage and *condition duration
*which is mostly achieved through traits, foods and runes, anyways.

Why is it, that a condition build can virtually go FULL tank and really not lose out on anything, yet a power build must sacrifice 2/3 of its core stats.

In addition to all this, conditions will have a near infinite cap, stack intensively (poison/burn) and have synergy with vulnerability. Some conditions also come with a POWERFUL utility effect (IE: poison reduces healing). Conditions are also not effected by Protection or Toughness. This means the ONLY way to counter conditions is via condition removal skills. The only real negative to a condition build is the ramp up time.

Now lets look at a power variant. Its mitigated by toughness and protection. Which is AT MINIMUM a 33% dps loss in addition to whatever toughness the enemy has. Now, maybe that’s not too bad for a full zerker build but when you look at a soldier build (what I showed you above) you’re virtually doing 0 damage to anyone vs the dire build counter part who still maintains nearly maximum condition dps.

My view is that conditions should need another stat to reach full potential and be mitigated by toughness and protection.

IE: Condition Damage, Condition Duration, xxx

What’s everyone elses take on the recent announcements?

I should just write a word document to copy-paste this in each time.

There are a number of reasons why it’s fair for condition builds to usually be beefier than max-damage Power builds. The first point is that max-damage Power builds typically have a DPS that is 2-3 times that of a condition build in the average scenario and explode beyond that in perfect situations, as high kitten times the damage output. Now, these numbers are subject to change with the update to conditions, but Power will still most likely be the higher DPS against all but the most heavily armored targets.

Second point is that conditions inherently have stronger counterplay options due to their ability to be cleansed. Power builds don’t have to worry about an attack they landed only dealing ~5% of its damage. Condition builds do.

Third, conditions lack multipliers. They can’t crit, they don’t benefit from % damage boosts, no Sigil of Force/Slaying/Potions/etc. They also lack divisors in the form of armor, damage reduction, and Protection and Weakness. Vulnerability changing will be the first multiplier they get.

Finally, condition builds need to be beefy. They have no choice but to wait for their damage to actually work, so they have to be able to survive long enough. Defensive stats are necessary.

My understanding has always been that “crit” was required for condition builds – as many traits would proc additional conditions on crit. Also, while you only got condition duration from traits and food, that was only because there were no condition duration armors to add to the mix – as for beserker builds, you want as many damage multipliers as possible.

So while straight damage builds used:
Pow, crit, ferocity

Condition damage builds use:
Condition damage, condition duration, crit

The only difference is that traditionally, condition builds have not been able to stack as many of their core stats as a striaght damage character.

Interested to see how this turns out though. Condition beserkers would be fun (10 seconds later ^^).

I feel more details are needed before we can start complaining about the specifics though.

Condition damage takes ramp up time, plus you need to keep the Conditions applied and in proper rotation. Condition builds also do not gain near as much benefit from crit chance as power builds, power builds it does more damage, condition builds might get lucky and get a 5-10 second long extra bleed. I say might because most minor critical hit traits for conditions are like 66% on crit.

So don’t worry, power builds will more than likely stay the most optimal. Just pure condition might now be able to compete.

Gerrand.3085:

My understanding has always been that “crit” was required for condition builds – as many traits would proc additional conditions on crit.

It’s not required, it can just be really nice to have. I don’t use Rabid on my Ranger in PvP, which is condi, and it’s fine.

Most condition damage builds also run precision because landing a crit applies more conditions either through traits or sigils. …but I’m sure you already knew that….. right?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Most condition damage builds also run precision because landing a crit applies more conditions either through traits or sigils. …but I’m sure you already knew that….. right?

This. Condition builds do more damage the more stacks they apply. Dire gear means less stacks, thus less damage versus glass condi prefixes like Sinister or Rampager.

Aaand I just want power – condi dmg – toughness gear, lol.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I should just write a word document to copy-paste this in each time.

There are a number of reasons why it’s fair for condition builds to usually be beefier than max-damage Power builds. The first point is that max-damage Power builds typically have a DPS that is 2-3 times that of a condition build in the average scenario and explode beyond that in perfect situations, as high kitten times the damage output. Now, these numbers are subject to change with the update to conditions, but Power will still most likely be the higher DPS against all but the most heavily armored targets.

Second point is that conditions inherently have stronger counterplay options due to their ability to be cleansed. Power builds don’t have to worry about an attack they landed only dealing ~5% of its damage. Condition builds do.

Third, conditions lack multipliers. They can’t crit, they don’t benefit from % damage boosts, no Sigil of Force/Slaying/Potions/etc. They also lack divisors in the form of armor, damage reduction, and Protection and Weakness. Vulnerability changing will be the first multiplier they get.

Finally, condition builds need to be beefy. They have no choice but to wait for their damage to actually work, so they have to be able to survive long enough. Defensive stats are necessary.

rebuttal: conditions are a form of passive damage, even if it doesn’t tick right away.

Condition/power/precision will be the new meta!!!!!!

Lightsbane.9012:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I should just write a word document to copy-paste this in each time.

There are a number of reasons why it’s fair for condition builds to usually be beefier than max-damage Power builds. The first point is that max-damage Power builds typically have a DPS that is 2-3 times that of a condition build in the average scenario and explode beyond that in perfect situations, as high kitten times the damage output. Now, these numbers are subject to change with the update to conditions, but Power will still most likely be the higher DPS against all but the most heavily armored targets.

Second point is that conditions inherently have stronger counterplay options due to their ability to be cleansed. Power builds don’t have to worry about an attack they landed only dealing ~5% of its damage. Condition builds do.

Third, conditions lack multipliers. They can’t crit, they don’t benefit from % damage boosts, no Sigil of Force/Slaying/Potions/etc. They also lack divisors in the form of armor, damage reduction, and Protection and Weakness. Vulnerability changing will be the first multiplier they get.

Finally, condition builds need to be beefy. They have no choice but to wait for their damage to actually work, so they have to be able to survive long enough. Defensive stats are necessary.

rebuttal: conditions are a form of passive damage, even if it doesn’t tick right away.

How are they “passive damage?” Conditions don’t apply themselves.

Lightsbane.9012:

rebuttal: conditions are a form of passive damage, even if it doesn’t tick right away.

Even if a class’ main source of conditions come from their “active” skills (i.e. necro)? There are traits, sigils, and runes that passively apply conditions, but this also goes for direct damage.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Most condition damage builds also run precision because landing a crit applies more conditions either through traits or sigils. …but I’m sure you already knew that….. right?

Passive aggressive much?

Yes i am aware of this. But if you read my post its pretty obvious I was comparing PVT and CVT builds.

Precision has a way larger role in power builds. Precision for condition builds is just a nice bonus and by no means required.

Will Dire be balanced v. Soldier’s? The answer is going to depend on a lot of variables.

The quick, dirty answer is that PTV builds that get part of their overall damage from conditions (e.g., Soldier, Engineer, Flamethrower) will lose some of that overall damage with the change. Any Soldier build that currently does not benefit from conditions (e.g., Necro, Soldier, Dagger/Ax/Focus will be the same as before. The variable that we do not know is just how much extra condition damage a fully Dire-geared character will gain.

Drakonath.7096:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Most condition damage builds also run precision because landing a crit applies more conditions either through traits or sigils. …but I’m sure you already knew that….. right?

Passive aggressive much?

Yes i am aware of this. But if you read my post its pretty obvious I was comparing PVT and CVT builds.

Precision has a way larger role in power builds. Precision for condition builds is just a nice bonus and by no means required.

You need precision to crit for sigils and traits like IP on engi. Precision isn’t a bonus it’s a requirement on a build whether it’s power or conditions.

In wvw: I/We have 4 shout heal warriors running around, 5+ guards all with runes of the trooper…
All those warriors carry warhorn, mesmer with null field, necro with well of power…

They clean a lot of conditions for our small 20 man group… and this is NOT considering personal cleans.

Understand the max dmg from DOT might be the same or higher then a DPS build -BUT- 1 spell of cleanses makes your dmg output reset to noting…
and you’ll have to start all over
and with the CD’s still running upping your condi’s will be slower…
and your enemy will grin and if he has a good build he can do so again.
Also you need to land your conditions before the start to do dmg.
Lastly you need to stay alive vs your DPS adversaries while your conid’s might be ticking. And your target will go backline for a moment, to be cleansed, and you’ll lose your target or be engulfed when you close. Condi’s have uses, but they are not fire and forget.

The longest bleed actually comes from necro: blood is power has a base 30 sec uptime.
I have played with 100% bleed duration necro’s, but @ 60% this will be a skill doing over to 16+k dmg, if not cleansed during its 57,5 seconds… on a high condi build: e.g. rabid/undead w corruption and bursting….

But I have -NEVER- killed an enemy with 2 stacks of bleed. -NEVER-. Warrior wih HS regen more then the bleed will damage/tick even… (guards and rangers will also not bother with 2 stacks of bleeds.)

Condi classes doesnt need a lot of precision? IP on engi? Put sigil of int and call it a day and thats something a meta build use btw.

Condi on crits? Yes they are there but they are quite minor if we compare it to skills, in fact they might as well not exits. For example war has 33% chance on crit to bleed someone for 3sec. I bet someone will lose a lot of damage if they drop precision.

For me its simple; if you believe that condi is fine the way it is now, please kill a dire build with ptv in 1v1. Ofc dont forget to post video. If you cant do that step back and stop saying nonsense. Condi damage needs 1 extra stat otherwise if wont be balanced.

it is very simple: why only compare dire to soldiers.
if you do so also compare sinister to zerk.

Your metabuild will be in the trashcan ANYWAYS. Meta’s shift. Especially on content patches and trust me this will be a biggie.

I think the clerics/trooper shout heal sword/warhorn with hammer or longbow will make a great reentrance to PvP, coupled to a condi mesmer or condi mancer it might be impressive. 2 warriors for 2 area’s, 2 condition bombers and a thief….

You have overlooked soo much

you say that the only negative thing with conditions is the Ramp up time..

that is not entirely true..

Condition removal is going to become a problem for condition classes and its a lot more underrated than some people think

Ranger for example has healing spring.. Thats a healing AoE that cures conditions every 2 seconds with a 10 second duration..
anyone standing in that AoE is effectively going to tank conditions and make condition based characters useless for at least 10 seconds..
Then add the trait Circle of Life which gives you another healing spring when you get downed making Rangers in their down state practically immune to condition stacking for another 10 seconds while they wait for Lick Wounds to become available..

And then there is Signet of Renewal.. removes a condition every 10 seconds… or activate this and transfer all conditions from all nearby allies to your pet effectively a mass party clense of all conditions and then you simply F4 and swap that pet out instantly before it dies..

Lightning Reflex that removes a condition and counts as a stun breaking damage dodge skill and gives vigor..

and the Elite Spirit of Nature which heals and cures conditions

then there are the traits
Empathic Bond.. Pets take 3 conditions from you every 10 seconds
Survival of the Fittest… Remove 2 conditions every time you use a survival skill
(there is also a trait that cuts cooldown on survival skills)
and 4 survival skills to choose from including an elite

And if we needed any more condition removal there is still the Brown Bear F2
Shake it off.. removes 2 conditions from upto 5 people
Purge conditions… removes 10 conditions (Underwater)

Now I don’t know about you guys but the Ranger alone seems to have more than enough Condition removal support to protect his entire party and utterly cripple condition based characters..

Yes.. condition damage is getting a big and long overdue upgrade but some people are acting like this is the end of Gw2 and its going to utterly destroy the balance of the game…

trust me its not..
Condition characters are going to be just as useful in PvP as they have always been but just a little more threatening than before which means condi removal is just going to play a more important role.. thats all

its PvE thats going to benefit most from these changes..
No more wasted slots for Boss events… no more discrimination for Condi classes like Necro in LFG dungeons…
Bosses that reflect conditions are now going to play a much more devastating role in party content..

there are plenty of pros to this upgrade and its a very welcome one

and there are still 7 more classes out there with their own condition removal abilities too…
I need not even mention the Necromancers ability to do that
Putrid Mark
Deathly Swarm
Consume Conditions
Plague Signet
Well of Power (Turns conditions into Boons for anyone standing in it)
Lich Form, Grim Spector that purges conditions on you, Rips boons off enemies and Cures conditions on all allies caught in the blast radious

and im not going to even get into traits…
just put it this way.. Necromancers have more than enough ways to spread conditions away from their party members or flat out pull them all to himself and then throw them back at the enemy.. and then duplicate those conditions to surrounding enemies..